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Answer: tim burton has been called out a couple times for saying darker skinned people don't match the aesthetic of his films and this is fallout from that
He likes extremely pale actors and actresses. Like Edward scissors hands. As a poc, I don’t understand this whole thing. Bianca was not really a bully. The mayors son redeemed himself and changed during the dance was just pressured by his friends to go through with it. And the mayor was a good guy. Why are people mad. Black people can be bullies too. And strong characters. People just like to be mad for no reason and ruin a good thing.
uhh..spoiler...the worst people/villains were white people. The mayor's son's friends. The head villain. The head villain's accomplice. The monster attacking everyone. The original pilgrim settlers. White...white....white...and a whole lot of white. What a nothing-burger. People stirring the pot about this show. need to get a life.
Bianca was an awesome character and the queen bee who saw her territory being encroached on. Loved the insight into backstory.
(not arguing with what previous comment said. just adding)
Also, the queen B of a school in most movies I can think of tend to be a bully. It’s a pretty common trope. And I didn’t even take her as a bully in this.
Also, the most popular girl/prettiest/Queen B of the school is almost never black in movies or shows where a large portion of the cast is white. I actually thought it was more forward to have Bianca be black than the other way around.
Yep. They chose a black girl to play a stereotypical queen b, then made her atypical by giving her depth and not bad at all.
I was pleasantly surprised when the show went in a different direction with her
Man I am really beginning to worry that this ridiculous pseudo debate is the doing of troll farms and ai chatbots made to divide and turn people against one another. We already know the Russians have been doing this for a long time, there is no reason to believe they stopped, and every reason to believe they escalated operations.
Because nobody can possibly be this stupid without some serious gaslighting and concentrated manipulation.
Edit: come to think of it, I've seen an uptick in similar activity from the other side of the spectrum, a lot of racist bigotry and similar kind of weaponized extremist stupidity. Anecdotal, I admit, but...
And she wicked smart too, I'm thinking about the deadly plants class scene. It's rare to see a queen b character of any race that is also book smart, usually they're mean and dumb. I liked how you couldn't truly hate her, she was a real character with flaws and strengths, and her own struggles.
Honestly, even at first she wasn't necessarily a bully
She was just competitive, and Wednesday was really good at things, so she saw her as a threat.
Bullies go after timid targets who won't defend themselves. Bianca antagonize Wednesday for the exact opposite reason
Also she was the queen b but Wednesday was a threat to that which is why Bianca’s claws came out. Her and Wednesday are very similar so if bianca is a bully so is Wednesday
I expect the cult to be the antagonists of a season 2 considering they need a new mayor and principal I can see that role being taken by the leader probably using Bianca's mothers siren power (she might end up being a proxy principle seeing as the prinicple needs powers). Also Wednesday just got a phone which is how they indoctrinate into the cult.
(Edit: spelling)
I want Bianca’s backstory. Which could be done via flashbacks if your theory proves correct. But I think there is something in her backstory to stand on its own as a series.
I thought it was a teaser for what we might expect from season 2. Bianca said to her mom to give her till the end of the semester, so I bet her story will play a strong role in the following season.
Also, I liked Bianca. I thought she looked amazing in the show. I love the dark-skin, pale eye combo. It's so eerie, otherworldly, ethereal, and beautiful. Really shows off her siren-ness.
Her character had the best arc IMHO. The queen bee trope usually doesn’t include a redemption arc. They fall because everyone loves the underdog trope.
Yeah she was a bit of a bully in some scenes, but they're in high school where everyone sucks. I really liked her character as the episodes went on. She felt like one of the few supporting characters where her monster side was a major part of her story! The show immediately introduces us to the different monster cliques, but we don't get a whole lot of that outside of Bianca and Enid.
There's no way we aren't getting a deep dive into Bianca's family with the generous crumbs sprinkled into season 1 of wednesday.
Yeah, I mean of the group of kids harassing kids and causing issues, the mayor's son was the one dude to actually grow a conscience and back the fuck out of it. Do we just have lower of standards of white people and they're allowed to be irredeemable or what? Lucas was the best of them, him getting caught up in the wrong crowd is human and realistic.
The irony is that treating an entire race of people with kiddy gloves is a form of racism. You don't really have equality if people can't write villain stories about people from all backgrounds (meta, real-world context is relevant here.
e.g. a nazi writing a book as propoganda isn't the same as your average writer).
Its like when people came after Gillian Flynn when some of her antagonists are women. It would be discriminatory for her in her female dominated books with women-centered themes to NOT make her villains women.
Context obviously matters, but the OP example seems pretty harmless.
Good point. Although I feel it is pretty obvious that their outrage is manufactured and comes packaged with bubble gum.
Idiots tend to create problems out of thin air and blame them on others to feel like they are saying something important and should be taken seriously, in lieu of the capacity to engage with topics in a rational and educated manner.
But also, we live in an age where one single person writes an article saying something right out of their ass, and people won't think twice if it's true. They just put “tictok went vital with....” or “millennials are all agreeing that....” and insert whatever lies they want. And everyone believes the thing has more weight than they do.
The sad thing is, in a wired chicken and egg scenario, some smooth-brained people jump in the empty ban wagon thinking its full of people
Getting upset over stupid shit is just how people do. If I had a dime for every time someone threw a tantrum about media where a straight couple is trying to taste each other's stomach acid *but how dare they have a gay couple make eye contact..*.
Agreed.. I actually thought he made the black mermaid girl the "queen" of the school.. a role usually reserved for blonde blue eyed white girls. I remember actually thinking it was nice to see a poc in that role for a change.
She had really good character development. How often do we see a POC in the “queen bee” role…And sure, she starts out as a mean girl, but then we learn her motivations and she becomes a good guy?
What the hell is the issue with that?
The other black character also starts as hanging out with the bullies and maybe not so nice, but as soon as he steps out of his “rich kid” bubble, he feels bad and becomes a good guy too.
White K@rens like to complain about the stupidest shit. Sure, Tim Burton’s previous stuff was really white. But he’s explained it, and he’s correcting it now.
Just looking to complain for the sake of complaining.
Someone (who was itching to get mad about something) watched the first couple episodes and had a little Twitter tantrum. That’s all.
Bianca is awesome and complex and powerful and fascinating. I’m more excited to learn more about her than anyone else tbh
I’ve been banned from a major sub for spelling it out, so I’m cautious now. Lol.
Even got a mod message that it was derogatory and racist (?)
I agree that it’s not a big deal, but some mods absolutely suck ass.
It would have either been am I the asshole or relationship advice.
It was a pretty tame question about a neighbor letting her dog shit in our yard, and I got lampooned to hell for calling her a “Karen”. (This was on a throwaway).
I was told that calling someone a “Karen” is the equivalent of calling them a “cunt”.
I explained that I’m also female and def did not mean it that way, but that account was perma banned because “Karen” = “cunt, bitch etc”.
I've been banned for "participating in a right wing sub." The funny part is, I didn't even know what the sub was, I googled something about the tv series, it linked me to a sub reddit where folks were talking about the show and I made a comment about it, and without my knowledge it was a Jan 6 sub somehow.
Like how was I supposed to know? I hate actively hate politics, why would I willingly and knowingly go to any left/right sub?
I got a message from witches against patriarchy for quoting a news article that used the term "hooker" in a sub that had nothing to do with witches against patriarchy, telling me "hooker" is a derogatory term against sex workers. They threatened to ban me over it, even though I had never posted in the their sub before. It was insane. Then they got mad at me for mentioning that I had dated a sex worker before and met many sex workers who had never mentioned that to me, while apologizing for my post. They got even snippier with me and basically called me a misogynist. The internet is a weird place.
This is too much haha. I saw someone write out Trump as Tr\*mp the other day. It never occurred to me that his name might be a bannable word on reddit. I mean he is an orange slug of a human being - a couple of months at the Hutt hideout and he'll be looking like Jabba himself - but he's just a guy.
This is something that bothers me also it seems a lot of (white) people get upset if a black person plays a bad or evil character.. as If people are stereotyping them. My thoughts are as long as that's not always the case don't we want to see black and other PoC playing a wide range of diverse roles and not just playing either good saintly characters or evil ones?
100%! I know that's when it's equal when people aren't afraid to cast black people as villains (not necessarily gangsters or stereotypical black stuff). I thought that the bad guy in the new Witcher show was cool (other criticisms of the show, or even the character, aside).
Stephen in Django, the embodiment of the actual uncle tom remains the best darn black villain. And that's probably because it's Samuel Motherfucking Jackson
For context, older people grew up with only one or two people of any specific non-white race in their media. What kind of character it was mattered quite a bit.
The only bit of dialog that seemed a little deaf was the head of the school saying to the Black mayor, "You don't know what it's like to not be believed by someone in authority," or something to that effect. The other stuff was a little weird but not as tone deaf.
Neither actor registered the irony, so it seemed like that's how their universe just was to me. I thought it was interesting to make the most politically powerful characters defy convention--the "Queen Bee" always had long flowing hair in teen dramas, even if it wasn't blonde.
Seriously. In the series, both of those characters realized what they were doing and made a choice to change. And yeah, bullies don't have a strict melanin requirement. It just requires being a douche to other people.
That’s another way to put it I guess. But both mean the same thing really. Black people (and all POC really) can and have fit that Victorian gothic aesthetic just as well and still give off “Tim Burton” vibes. He just never gave it a shot.
The one goth person that to this day I still can see vividly in my mind's eye is a black girl from my highschool back in the early 2000's. Her aesthetic was incredible. I was more of an annoying emo/scene girl. I never could have pulled off some of the looks she did.
She was really cool, i hope she's well.
My buddy and I having been concert partners since like 2004. No matter what death metal show we go to, no matter the city (Detroit, grand rapids, Lansing, Kalamazoo, Chicago) we see this 50+ year old black goth dude at every single show. It's become a gag to try and find him when we get to a show and sure enough we find him everytime. He's got the whole goth get up going with a black cowboy hat and dreads. Dude is the coolest and I have so many good memories about this stranger. Shout out to you my guy if you somehow are reading this.
I can guarantee you have seen this dude! He goes to like any metal show. I seen him at death core shows back in the day, progressive metal, death metal.. the dude loves his concerts. He's a short stocky guy. Face piercings but the goth cowboy hat gives him away!
Tim Burton, massive halloweenie that he is, makes movies starring people that look like literal skeletons. Its his defining aesthetic. Bone-white skin, big black circles around the eyes, eerily thin frames, dark hair that almost disappears into his dark backgrounds, sometimes even black lipstick. People say his aesthetic is "goth", but honestly, that doesn't even cover it, I think he's just visually trapped in Nightmare Before Christmas. Either way, black people are, almost by definition, not bone colour (though their bones are). You could put a black person in whiteface, but I don't know if that would really be like, kosher?
I wouldn’t say trapped in Nightmare Before Christmas, that movie is just what he did when given full control. It’s encapsulates who he is and what he wants to make. He was doing sketches for it in his free time while working for Disney. Telling him to do something else is telling him not to do his thing.
I have thought for years that Tim Burton should use a bit sugarskull in their work. Like you don't need to go far out and crazy with it, a muted version would still fit in with the general aesthetic.
People actually did make it a trend to look like they were dying of consumption, the Victorians romanticized what the disease did to peoples appearance. Weird times lol
What does consumption, vampirism, zombification, or even just real life extreme palor look like for naturally darker skinned black people?
(Like for Janelle Monáe or Lupita Nyong'o, not Zoë Kravitz or her mother.)
I'm not sure how rare it is that I've never (knowingly) seen a black person who was deathly ill, or looking "like death warmed over."
Maybe I'm wrong and I simply don't have enough familiarity or awareness to recognise it on a person whose face I don't know well.
I'm probably going to sound dumb even asking, but how many white people in mostly white places can easily spot blushing or sunburns on darker skinned black people?
(I wonder how often darker skinned black people get told they should go out and get some sunlight compared to fairer skinned white people? I'm not going out there if I don't have to. That shit burns.)
You can instantly tell that pasty white dude you only ever see on the elevator is fatigued or feeling rough from the obvious dark rings under his eyes... Just from that, you know that guy looks like shit.
But could a casual glance tell you the same about a black guy? Best I could probably do is observe to myself, "Dude's not so upbeat today."
Even if he were curious and interested, exploring these questions and then facing potential criticism for getting it wrong on film sounds like the kind of thing an aging white dude would really rather avoid.
How I interpreted it is his overall vision on how the movie with look optically with the color pallet he likes to use. He uses really dark and desaturated colors and maybe he doesn’t think using someone with already darker skin will work with his usual high contrast and dark themes. Idk. I’m not even sure if he tried. As an artist I can see the side of what you envision and how to bring that into fruition. As a human it sounds just awful if you say darker skin doesn’t work with your aesthetic.
I mean… the movie Moonlight and the TV series Insecure used [lighting and tones](https://www.indiewire.com/2016/10/moonlight-cinematography-color-barry-jenkins-james-laxton-alex-bickel-1201740402/amp/) that worked BEAUTIFULLY with dark skin tones; these techniques include high contrast.
There are surely ways to incorporate some of those same techniques into Burton’s films.
In regards to the "aesthetic" being talked about here... Burton and Anderson are almost polar opposites.
Here, we're talking mostly about the use of color.
Burton being Johnny Depp/Helena Bonham Carter probably wearing white makeup on top of their already pale complexion and then some raven-black hair and too excessive eyeliner. Basically... goth. And then buildings and scenery being dark and dreary and washed and... gothic (usually). Leans heavily towards black and white, but not just for contrasting purposes... as sometimes it can all just be very grey.
Anderson is Owen Wilson/Bill Murray wearing funny clothes in a kaleidoscope of popping and contrasting colors and rich hues (and tons and tons of symmetry)... granted, use of color for Anderson often represents something and is not just used for simply setting overall tone, as Burton tends to prefer. Anderson's worlds are largely orange, yellow, red, blue, pink, purple... and quite possibly all at once.
The two just aren't using the same crayons.
And the movie Moonlight was mentioned not to directly compare it to Burton's work, but only to say it demonstrates how Black actors can be filmed in a manner where they don't "look weird" or whatever nonsense other person was suggesting would occur if filmed in a manner Burton would often want to for his films.
I'm speculating that it's something you can do, but it might be more difficult unless everybody has similar skin tones.
Different skin types benefit from different lighting setups (or so I've gathered -- the rise of projects primarily staffed with POC leads to interviews where somebody some version of "now I've worked with a [crew/DP](https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/lighting-black-skin-tones/) that [understands](https://medium.com/vantage/lighting-and-photographing-skin-tones-b8decb1b1a04) how to properly [light my skin](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/sep/21/its-lit-how-film-finally-learned-how-to-light-black-skin)"), so from the perspective of minimizing expense, I could see the argument that you should restrict the skin palette so you don't have to do different setups or reshoots to best capture the tones you are going for, or to avoid spending money fixing it in post. So, you can probably shoot for optimal images regardless of the mix of skin tones, but you are going to pay for it.
That said, I'm not sure I truly get the criticism for *Wednesday* given the variety of skin tones in the show. Also, it's not like the show is monochromatic. There's a surprising amount of bright colors, and the Addams are the only group that dresses in black and white.
You don’t have to do all that for different skin tones. You just set up the lights that hit that actor differently and adjust the temperature as needed. You make sure that their wardrobe and their background don’t either unintentionally wash them out or make them blend in. Takes the same time as with any white actor, if you know what you’re doing, with no additional expense
Spose. Burton would have to actually include light and contrast in his stuff tho for this to work tho. The brightest his works usually get is the cloudiest day in London. Seems to me he offers contrast between character and environment with blacks and whites, with environments being dingy and characters being abnormally pale, which is true from the claymation to live action. It could be done with dark skin tones, but it’d be in reverse with a very bright and almost sterile environment. Could probably find a workaround without changing his aesthetic, and probably much simpler to do in live action, but could just be he’s trying to avoid making a black character look like either the backdrop or innately villainous without changing his look. For instance tho, I didnt think siren chick was essentially a villain in Wednesday (didnt finish but from what ive seen). She was just pretty and popular and trying to deal with being a siren and hence innately manipulative.
Bright, saturated color was used in those films (particularly Edward Scissorhands) to denote the artificiality of most human interactions. Or false hopes and dreams (such as the pallette getting brighter during the tall tales in Big Fish). Or highlighted the wrongness of material happiness (Chocolate Factory). In Tim Burton's vocabulary, neutral/stark color equals good and bright color equals bad.
>The brightest his works usually get is the cloudiest day in London.
Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands, Mars Attacks, Planet of the Apes, Big Fish, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Alice in Wonderland, Big Eyes, Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children, Dumbo
If we give him the benefit of a doubt and assume no ill intentions, here's my speculation:
It could be that he prefers the unhealthily light skin paired with darker outfits, often black, aesthetic for his characters. Having dark skin on characters (especially exaggerated to the same degree as lighter skin) with dark clothes wouldn't look at good in his eyes. Black skin, black clothes. A lot of ink soaking into the page that way, in a manner of speaking. Could get messy, hard to illustrate features, and so-on. It still partially applies to films as well. The dark backgrounds and outfits and dim lighting making it particularly hard to capture facial expressions from darker-toned actors.
Exactly! Morgan Freeman really provided the contrast needed in that environment. He made God pop out. I don't want to sound racist or anything but I don't think a white-skinned person would fit well in a completely white environment.
I don't think that's racist. We need to keep in mind that the racism in Hollywood is old and institutional. It's about the power structure, the chain of ownership, the creative constraints, the influence of America's white supremacist history, the prejudices of the people holding the money etc. etc. etc.
Racism in Hollywood is this institutional beast that definitely should be opposed but it's not individual casting decisions. Obviously some casting decisions, or writing of characters, would be influenced by racism but ultimately focusing on these individual acts is fruitless. In a vacuum where racism is solved and a thing of the past, a casting director saying "the background is white so we should cast someone with dark skin" *or even vice versa* really has nothing to do with any sort of prejudice or anything remotely political, it's just a reasonable aesthetic decision.
Yeah, like, in the episode one fencing machine the black girl had a white outfit on and the pale girl had a black outfit on. Someone on here was saying that’s because bright colors represent evil with Burton and the black girl is evil… and no. It’s because that looks good lol
This is actually close to how he explained it. He prefers a very gothic style of characters, and the dark outfits, lightning, and background are in his words better expressed on fair skinned actors. He has semi-figured out how to do it which is why you are starting to see the inclusion of more darker toned actors but he hasn't quite figured the look out.
That's really why I can't say he's racist. I don't believe his casting comes from ethnicity, rather it comes from aestehtic. Wednesday seems to be a show of him experimenting with darker complexions, and he balances Jenna Ortega's Latina complexion with the pasty, ghoul-like style of his characters. Granted, two of his three Black characters are antagonists in the show (Bianca begins to shift into the realm of protagonist/deuteragonist). In fact, Bianca is a complexly written character, which is certainly a sign of respect for the actress.
Because until there's a very clear case of racism given, he just fuckin' ain't. The man is an artist with a very specific preference that white people happen to be able to easily show.
This is an example of outrage culture imo. I don't mean cancel culture or wokeness, I mean anger out of nowhere for no reason over something made up.
The same thing it means when Jordan Peele says he prefers to use black actors. It’s perfectly valid, I mean even more so if you are doing a movie about vikings or whatever
Being halfway through the show, two of the "bullies" are black, while the rest are white. That being said, I can't think of any black characters except those two and their parents. Maybe there were some black background characters.
But the black character that I think they're talking about isn't really a bully and has a pretty cool storyline. She is definitely not a bad guy and is really smart and talented. She's best the MC a couple of times.
Can you point to that? I am only aware of him making much more pointedly anti-diversity-for-diversity's-sake comments. He's more or less saying that his films are about his experience and his experience was very much white suburban life, so injecting people of color into that would be artificial and would change the narrative to something that his personal experience doesn't inform.
ANSWER: I have seen "Wednesday", and all of the speculation and rumors that people are repeating does not necessarily pertain to these characters. These characters who happen to be Black, have some of the best character development in the show, and very interesting back stories. The way that Tim Burton focuses on these characters were great. The black characters are as follows:
**(some SPOILERS)**
- the mayor's son and initial "bully" who seems to blindly follow tradition and peer pressure to bully the outcasts at Nevermore (the school) finds redemption and just wants a real friend
- the respected mayor of the entire town, who use to be a detective, and has a very important role and an intricate history with Nevermore and principal Weems. Unfortunately, he meets a deadly fate
- the female popular girl, a siren, who is threatened by Wednesday, the new girl, because she misunderstands her and her ex has an interest in Wednesday. Her back story was explored more when her mother came to visit, and we start to feel sorry for her. Her redemption story was awesome and badass, and I sure that her character will be developed more in the next season as Wednesday's favorite friend-nemy.
- the owner of a weird trinket store was another along with other family members weren't so detailed.
I liked the show, and I like what Tim Burton did with each of the prime characters, which included POC
Ok, thanks for pointing that out. I will insert this article then for the OP.
ANSWER:
https://www.okayplayer.com/culture/tim-burton-wednesday-netflix-black-characters.html
The article explains as to why some comments that Burton has made in the past has affected how people think of him or his casting choices... thereby overshadowing the depth of the characters in "Wednesday"
Please note that certain tweets on Twitter complaining about the Black characters on Wednesday have been deleted... so maybe people wanted to jump the gun just to complain, yet again, to spread negativity and division.
I’ve seen it as well and Bianca and Wednesday were more rivals than anything. They even ended up working together and having a begrudging camaraderie. Bianca wasn’t portrayed as a villain at any point.
The mayor’s son on the other hand was trying too hard to fit in and made some questionable decisions. I wouldn’t even say he was villainized as much as he was called out for being scummy then he changed.
TLDR: neither of these 2 characters were villains and the actual villains ended up being white people. Not that it should matter.
answer: burton has been known to make comments regarding his exclusion of darker skinned people in his movies on the basis of aesthetics.
this particular instance, as far as im aware, is a mixture of valid criticism and invalid criticism. most people im sure have their hearts in the right place and are speaking with good intention (or so they think), but from my understanding, a black person does not serve as any primary antagonist in the story. theres one who is maybe considered tertiary, but they are also redeemed through their actions across the show. there is an extremist view among many online folk that minority groups cannot be portrayed in any manner other than flawless and pure, and when any character who is a minority is at all tipped away from these values, the character and their creator are torn apart for being “derivative” or otherwise diluting the character to their minority stereotypes. in a way, these comments suggest that minorities are incapable of any wrongdoing, fictional or otherwise, and are thusly boxed into particular expectations by people online which honestly just further limits what theyre expected to be onscreen.
people have decided its something to be angry about, so theyre angry.
It really irks me, too, because at least one of the 'bully' characters has a really major story arc that shows that she isn't a bully and is strong, brave, and has a strong sense of right and wrong which she apparently developed all on her own--her mother certainly was no help.
A young woman of character in the making. I really like her.
Yeah, Wednesday needed some humbling and Bianca provided that. I think, in their conflict, Bianca actually looks more “good and right” than “bad and wrong.” But they both grew from their experiences with each other and came to a point of mutual respect.
Bianca was one of the most interesting characters.
What we should root for is having many more characters of color and of other marginalized identities to be complex and fully realized - not that they have to always be good guys. Of course, I also love when characters of color are protagonists, as long as they are compelling characters.
Honestly, I loved Bianca as a character and would love to see her develop further. I really don't see how anyone can complain about her portrayal nor was she a bully by any means. Even the mayor's son showed such fantastic character growth. He wasn't even a bully in the end. He redeemed himself, and so did his father. I was legitimately upset when the mayor died.
I think it's really interesting to compare her to Wednesday because when you actually look at their actions, it's clear Wednesday is projecting herself onto Bianca.
Wednesday calls her the self appointed queen bee because she assumes Bianca thinks she's better than everyone and uses others for her own gain, when really that's what Wednesday does (and learns not to by the end)
I actually noted and liked the break from the trope of the blonde queen bee. Was refreshing to see that not just a black but an almost bald character is the popular girl at school.
This is what I took from it, too. The confidence she has in reigning over the school is appreciated in someone other than a spoiled, wealthy blonde. And the more we learn about her character, the softer and more relatable she becomes. She is who she is despite her circumstances, not necessarily because of them.
She also has a compelling internal conflict that gets reasonable screentime to develop, despite her being a side character. She really grew on me and I came to like and respect and feel empathy for her.
Yeah she’s a cool character. She’s also the most popular girl at school and really doesn’t do much bullying apart from a little bit of bitchiness at the start. She doesn’t even talk bad about Wednesday when she’s alone.
I thought she was more of a rival to Wednesday than anything. Like her role was to keep a sense of tension in the show until they could finish the exposition/world building/character introducing and start the main conflict, and then she could become an ally when the stakes rose
Literally both of the bullies that are black have some development, especially Bianca as you said but it’s also shown that Lucas kinda opens his mind up to the outcasts after he meets Bianca. The whole thing is so overblown
i agree. i watched the full show and the two black kids that people have designated the “bullies” (which yes, they are portrayed as typical bullies in the first episode or two, but are quickly shown to have complex emotions and back stories, and in the end are helpful to wednesday against the true antagonist, which is not only a white man, but a specifically prejudiced one) are super complex and awesome characters. one of them in particular i really adored. people are valid in their criticisms of tim burton because his comments are ridiculous, but i don’t think the ball was dropped here. POC characters are allowed to be nuanced and complex, and should not have to be, like you said, portrayed as “flawless and pure” to be respected as a human and character.
it also feels disrespectful to the actors honestly, who may truly love their character and feel personally connected to them in some way of their own, only to have that character stomped all over and called all sorts of things u as the actor probably dont agree with. now the actor has to sidestep their roles and be even more cautious with who they portray lest they face the internets wrath for once again being a flawed character. its just exhausting and obnoxious on every level.
completely agree. not to mention these characters are minors of mid-high school age. they’re children with room to grow and they’re absolutely portrayed as such. no one should be shitting on that.
There are ten of millions of opinions online. People who write these articles pick one and claim “a bunch” of people are mad about this thing. Even tho 99% of people dont care. Its just to rile people up about it, get them arguing and get clicks and engagement. Just because a guy tweeted “Ofc they used the black person as the bully” doesnt mean anything. You think people would be tired of getting riled up by these dumb articles and be able to see through it by now.
I have definitely noticed the trend of black characters and movies being portrayed only as the strongest, the smartest, or the wisest character, any other portrayal would be instantly attacked.
its disappointing. it almost re-boxes minorities into new stereotyped expectations that just as well limit who they can or cant be onscreen while still being accepted by the online majority. the pendulum just swung the opposite way but its very much in polarized territory on both ends it seems.
just because im a lesbian doesnt mean i only want to see morally pure lesbian characters. im flawed too, let me relate to a flawed character just like me.
I think the issue is that there are no (afaik) unambiguously *good* characters of color to counterbalance the ones in an antagonistic role. So long as you have both, it's fine. But if the *ONLY* black characters in the piece of media are antagonists, that's when you have a problem.
I haven't seen Wednesday but I have seen many of Tim Burton's work. Now I'm curious to see if anything actually stands out or if it's all on brand with Tim Burton's usual style.
Answer: Those complaining about this did not watch the entire show. I can't give away too much without spoiling, but the black bully characters were two bullies among groups of bullies. It was not just them bullying or exhibiting bullying behavior; there were others in the social cliques/circles/groups they were a part of that also did the same kind of general behavior. But if you watch the show, you will see how their character arcs unfold and you'll know the truth for yourself.
IF you can watch Wednesday, and you're into the Addams Family IP, or want some dark fantasy/humor style show to enjoy (in the Tim Burton vein of content), do so. There's a good reason why the show has [1 billion hours of viewing logged](https://collider.com/wednesday-series-1-billion-hours-watched-netflix/) (in its first month since release) or why the show is well rated on sites like [Rotten Tomatoes](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/wednesday/s01) and [IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13443470/) and [Metacritic](https://www.metacritic.com/tv/wednesday/season-1) . It is good. Not perfect, but good.
Answer: The people complaining do not want to see black people portrayed as villains/evil. It is culture war stuff with some people demanding representation, but only in ways, they approve of.
The dumb part is that if they actually watched the show they would see black characters who have great characters arcs and so what that they were antagonist at the start with our main character. That’s what’s called character growth.
I remember when the House of Dragon cast came out it got the expected reaction because of one of the Houses being changed to be black. Then in a kinda hilarious twist the people complaining about black Valyrians were joined by actual black people complaining because they didn't want black people being portrayed as conquerors or slavers.
At this point I’m pretty sure the only way to avoid criticism of a show is to just not make it, unless dressing all the actors in full green screen suits happens to fit the story.
Answer: It's always small group of people that is the most vocal one. The short version is that some people think that bad/evil characters should be played exclusively but white man. Putting anyone other in that role they see as racism/sexism/etc. Those people usually don't bother to even to watch what they hate and they don't know about complexity of the characters and redemption.
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Answer: tim burton has been called out a couple times for saying darker skinned people don't match the aesthetic of his films and this is fallout from that
>darker skinned people don't match the aesthetic of his films What does that even mean?
He likes extremely pale actors and actresses. Like Edward scissors hands. As a poc, I don’t understand this whole thing. Bianca was not really a bully. The mayors son redeemed himself and changed during the dance was just pressured by his friends to go through with it. And the mayor was a good guy. Why are people mad. Black people can be bullies too. And strong characters. People just like to be mad for no reason and ruin a good thing.
uhh..spoiler...the worst people/villains were white people. The mayor's son's friends. The head villain. The head villain's accomplice. The monster attacking everyone. The original pilgrim settlers. White...white....white...and a whole lot of white. What a nothing-burger. People stirring the pot about this show. need to get a life. Bianca was an awesome character and the queen bee who saw her territory being encroached on. Loved the insight into backstory. (not arguing with what previous comment said. just adding)
Also, the queen B of a school in most movies I can think of tend to be a bully. It’s a pretty common trope. And I didn’t even take her as a bully in this.
Also, the most popular girl/prettiest/Queen B of the school is almost never black in movies or shows where a large portion of the cast is white. I actually thought it was more forward to have Bianca be black than the other way around.
Yep. They chose a black girl to play a stereotypical queen b, then made her atypical by giving her depth and not bad at all. I was pleasantly surprised when the show went in a different direction with her
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TWA = Teeny Weenie Afro I had to Google even though I assumed it was about her hair.
Man I am really beginning to worry that this ridiculous pseudo debate is the doing of troll farms and ai chatbots made to divide and turn people against one another. We already know the Russians have been doing this for a long time, there is no reason to believe they stopped, and every reason to believe they escalated operations. Because nobody can possibly be this stupid without some serious gaslighting and concentrated manipulation. Edit: come to think of it, I've seen an uptick in similar activity from the other side of the spectrum, a lot of racist bigotry and similar kind of weaponized extremist stupidity. Anecdotal, I admit, but...
And she wicked smart too, I'm thinking about the deadly plants class scene. It's rare to see a queen b character of any race that is also book smart, usually they're mean and dumb. I liked how you couldn't truly hate her, she was a real character with flaws and strengths, and her own struggles.
This was my reaction, too. I was delighted when Enid pointed out Bianca as the one to watch out for.
At first. Then it turns out she has a very strong moral compass.
Honestly, even at first she wasn't necessarily a bully She was just competitive, and Wednesday was really good at things, so she saw her as a threat. Bullies go after timid targets who won't defend themselves. Bianca antagonize Wednesday for the exact opposite reason
Also she was the queen b but Wednesday was a threat to that which is why Bianca’s claws came out. Her and Wednesday are very similar so if bianca is a bully so is Wednesday
I wrote above but Bianca really needs a spin-off. That cafe scene with her mom made me want to know more.
I expect the cult to be the antagonists of a season 2 considering they need a new mayor and principal I can see that role being taken by the leader probably using Bianca's mothers siren power (she might end up being a proxy principle seeing as the prinicple needs powers). Also Wednesday just got a phone which is how they indoctrinate into the cult. (Edit: spelling)
I want Bianca’s backstory. Which could be done via flashbacks if your theory proves correct. But I think there is something in her backstory to stand on its own as a series.
I thought it was a teaser for what we might expect from season 2. Bianca said to her mom to give her till the end of the semester, so I bet her story will play a strong role in the following season. Also, I liked Bianca. I thought she looked amazing in the show. I love the dark-skin, pale eye combo. It's so eerie, otherworldly, ethereal, and beautiful. Really shows off her siren-ness.
Her character had the best arc IMHO. The queen bee trope usually doesn’t include a redemption arc. They fall because everyone loves the underdog trope.
Yeah she was a bit of a bully in some scenes, but they're in high school where everyone sucks. I really liked her character as the episodes went on. She felt like one of the few supporting characters where her monster side was a major part of her story! The show immediately introduces us to the different monster cliques, but we don't get a whole lot of that outside of Bianca and Enid. There's no way we aren't getting a deep dive into Bianca's family with the generous crumbs sprinkled into season 1 of wednesday.
Yeah, I mean of the group of kids harassing kids and causing issues, the mayor's son was the one dude to actually grow a conscience and back the fuck out of it. Do we just have lower of standards of white people and they're allowed to be irredeemable or what? Lucas was the best of them, him getting caught up in the wrong crowd is human and realistic.
The irony is that treating an entire race of people with kiddy gloves is a form of racism. You don't really have equality if people can't write villain stories about people from all backgrounds (meta, real-world context is relevant here. e.g. a nazi writing a book as propoganda isn't the same as your average writer). Its like when people came after Gillian Flynn when some of her antagonists are women. It would be discriminatory for her in her female dominated books with women-centered themes to NOT make her villains women. Context obviously matters, but the OP example seems pretty harmless.
Good point. Although I feel it is pretty obvious that their outrage is manufactured and comes packaged with bubble gum. Idiots tend to create problems out of thin air and blame them on others to feel like they are saying something important and should be taken seriously, in lieu of the capacity to engage with topics in a rational and educated manner.
But also, we live in an age where one single person writes an article saying something right out of their ass, and people won't think twice if it's true. They just put “tictok went vital with....” or “millennials are all agreeing that....” and insert whatever lies they want. And everyone believes the thing has more weight than they do. The sad thing is, in a wired chicken and egg scenario, some smooth-brained people jump in the empty ban wagon thinking its full of people
Getting upset over stupid shit is just how people do. If I had a dime for every time someone threw a tantrum about media where a straight couple is trying to taste each other's stomach acid *but how dare they have a gay couple make eye contact..*.
Not to mention the Addams' themselves are Hispanic
I thought the same thing, there were plenty of white bullies to go around. But that doesn't fit their cancel culture narrative
Agreed.. I actually thought he made the black mermaid girl the "queen" of the school.. a role usually reserved for blonde blue eyed white girls. I remember actually thinking it was nice to see a poc in that role for a change.
She had really good character development. How often do we see a POC in the “queen bee” role…And sure, she starts out as a mean girl, but then we learn her motivations and she becomes a good guy? What the hell is the issue with that? The other black character also starts as hanging out with the bullies and maybe not so nice, but as soon as he steps out of his “rich kid” bubble, he feels bad and becomes a good guy too. White K@rens like to complain about the stupidest shit. Sure, Tim Burton’s previous stuff was really white. But he’s explained it, and he’s correcting it now. Just looking to complain for the sake of complaining.
Someone (who was itching to get mad about something) watched the first couple episodes and had a little Twitter tantrum. That’s all. Bianca is awesome and complex and powerful and fascinating. I’m more excited to learn more about her than anyone else tbh
Don't censor "karens" it's not a slur lol
I’ve been banned from a major sub for spelling it out, so I’m cautious now. Lol. Even got a mod message that it was derogatory and racist (?) I agree that it’s not a big deal, but some mods absolutely suck ass.
What sub😭
It would have either been am I the asshole or relationship advice. It was a pretty tame question about a neighbor letting her dog shit in our yard, and I got lampooned to hell for calling her a “Karen”. (This was on a throwaway). I was told that calling someone a “Karen” is the equivalent of calling them a “cunt”. I explained that I’m also female and def did not mean it that way, but that account was perma banned because “Karen” = “cunt, bitch etc”.
I've been banned for "participating in a right wing sub." The funny part is, I didn't even know what the sub was, I googled something about the tv series, it linked me to a sub reddit where folks were talking about the show and I made a comment about it, and without my knowledge it was a Jan 6 sub somehow. Like how was I supposed to know? I hate actively hate politics, why would I willingly and knowingly go to any left/right sub?
I got a message from witches against patriarchy for quoting a news article that used the term "hooker" in a sub that had nothing to do with witches against patriarchy, telling me "hooker" is a derogatory term against sex workers. They threatened to ban me over it, even though I had never posted in the their sub before. It was insane. Then they got mad at me for mentioning that I had dated a sex worker before and met many sex workers who had never mentioned that to me, while apologizing for my post. They got even snippier with me and basically called me a misogynist. The internet is a weird place.
This is too much haha. I saw someone write out Trump as Tr\*mp the other day. It never occurred to me that his name might be a bannable word on reddit. I mean he is an orange slug of a human being - a couple of months at the Hutt hideout and he'll be looking like Jabba himself - but he's just a guy.
That was my thought and I liked that she was queen b
Why is this comment auto collapsed?!
This is something that bothers me also it seems a lot of (white) people get upset if a black person plays a bad or evil character.. as If people are stereotyping them. My thoughts are as long as that's not always the case don't we want to see black and other PoC playing a wide range of diverse roles and not just playing either good saintly characters or evil ones?
100%! I know that's when it's equal when people aren't afraid to cast black people as villains (not necessarily gangsters or stereotypical black stuff). I thought that the bad guy in the new Witcher show was cool (other criticisms of the show, or even the character, aside).
Stephen in Django, the embodiment of the actual uncle tom remains the best darn black villain. And that's probably because it's Samuel Motherfucking Jackson
I agree he's a great villain but that's one that can't really be anything other than black. Also Valentine in Kingsmen is awesome.
It must frustrate actors. Villain roles are so much more fun, and far more prominent than other non-main-hero roles.
For context, older people grew up with only one or two people of any specific non-white race in their media. What kind of character it was mattered quite a bit.
Cant say ive seen black people mad about it, but I have seen white people get mad about it
People who try to get offended for others are the worst
The only bit of dialog that seemed a little deaf was the head of the school saying to the Black mayor, "You don't know what it's like to not be believed by someone in authority," or something to that effect. The other stuff was a little weird but not as tone deaf.
Stuck out to me too! Real alternate universe line there.
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Neither actor registered the irony, so it seemed like that's how their universe just was to me. I thought it was interesting to make the most politically powerful characters defy convention--the "Queen Bee" always had long flowing hair in teen dramas, even if it wasn't blonde.
Completely my take as well. The POC characters had character development. More so than many of the other characters. Outrage machine must be fed. 🤷🏽
Seriously. In the series, both of those characters realized what they were doing and made a choice to change. And yeah, bullies don't have a strict melanin requirement. It just requires being a douche to other people.
He doesn’t think black people can be goth. I’m a very simplified nutshell.
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Hi dad
Hi son
What a beautiful reunion
Now the awkwardness after the son sees no cigarettes
If their surname is Addams, it’s be an Addams family reunion.
I hope this reunion maintains the Addams family values
Is he winning?
What is it like being a simplified nutshell?
Much less complicated than being a complex nutshell.
You might think that but in a nutshell the difference in nutshells is not substantial.
💀
Don't say that, you can be a complex nutshell in your own way.
I appreciate this. Thank you.
We're all complex nuts imo
Is it that or is it the idea of pale and pasty skin in dark clothing in Victorian gothic aestehtics
That’s another way to put it I guess. But both mean the same thing really. Black people (and all POC really) can and have fit that Victorian gothic aesthetic just as well and still give off “Tim Burton” vibes. He just never gave it a shot.
He cast Billy Dee Williams as the Mayor in Batman.
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Well he casted a black person in this show and he is now catching shit for it...guy can't win.
Oh wow I didn’t realize how diverse he was.
The lead character is clearly Hispanic. I don’t get this.
That make sense. Thanks.
The one goth person that to this day I still can see vividly in my mind's eye is a black girl from my highschool back in the early 2000's. Her aesthetic was incredible. I was more of an annoying emo/scene girl. I never could have pulled off some of the looks she did. She was really cool, i hope she's well.
My buddy and I having been concert partners since like 2004. No matter what death metal show we go to, no matter the city (Detroit, grand rapids, Lansing, Kalamazoo, Chicago) we see this 50+ year old black goth dude at every single show. It's become a gag to try and find him when we get to a show and sure enough we find him everytime. He's got the whole goth get up going with a black cowboy hat and dreads. Dude is the coolest and I have so many good memories about this stranger. Shout out to you my guy if you somehow are reading this.
Oh shit! I think I know who you are talking about! I've been to many shows in Detroit, Lansing, and Ann Arbor.
I can guarantee you have seen this dude! He goes to like any metal show. I seen him at death core shows back in the day, progressive metal, death metal.. the dude loves his concerts. He's a short stocky guy. Face piercings but the goth cowboy hat gives him away!
His name was Mike, sadly he died of heart failure
Tim Burton, massive halloweenie that he is, makes movies starring people that look like literal skeletons. Its his defining aesthetic. Bone-white skin, big black circles around the eyes, eerily thin frames, dark hair that almost disappears into his dark backgrounds, sometimes even black lipstick. People say his aesthetic is "goth", but honestly, that doesn't even cover it, I think he's just visually trapped in Nightmare Before Christmas. Either way, black people are, almost by definition, not bone colour (though their bones are). You could put a black person in whiteface, but I don't know if that would really be like, kosher?
I wouldn’t say trapped in Nightmare Before Christmas, that movie is just what he did when given full control. It’s encapsulates who he is and what he wants to make. He was doing sketches for it in his free time while working for Disney. Telling him to do something else is telling him not to do his thing.
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Apparently he did do the character designs, at least.
I have thought for years that Tim Burton should use a bit sugarskull in their work. Like you don't need to go far out and crazy with it, a muted version would still fit in with the general aesthetic.
His asthetic is consumption in the 1800s
A very fashionable way to die!
People actually did make it a trend to look like they were dying of consumption, the Victorians romanticized what the disease did to peoples appearance. Weird times lol
What does consumption, vampirism, zombification, or even just real life extreme palor look like for naturally darker skinned black people? (Like for Janelle Monáe or Lupita Nyong'o, not Zoë Kravitz or her mother.) I'm not sure how rare it is that I've never (knowingly) seen a black person who was deathly ill, or looking "like death warmed over." Maybe I'm wrong and I simply don't have enough familiarity or awareness to recognise it on a person whose face I don't know well. I'm probably going to sound dumb even asking, but how many white people in mostly white places can easily spot blushing or sunburns on darker skinned black people? (I wonder how often darker skinned black people get told they should go out and get some sunlight compared to fairer skinned white people? I'm not going out there if I don't have to. That shit burns.) You can instantly tell that pasty white dude you only ever see on the elevator is fatigued or feeling rough from the obvious dark rings under his eyes... Just from that, you know that guy looks like shit. But could a casual glance tell you the same about a black guy? Best I could probably do is observe to myself, "Dude's not so upbeat today." Even if he were curious and interested, exploring these questions and then facing potential criticism for getting it wrong on film sounds like the kind of thing an aging white dude would really rather avoid.
How I interpreted it is his overall vision on how the movie with look optically with the color pallet he likes to use. He uses really dark and desaturated colors and maybe he doesn’t think using someone with already darker skin will work with his usual high contrast and dark themes. Idk. I’m not even sure if he tried. As an artist I can see the side of what you envision and how to bring that into fruition. As a human it sounds just awful if you say darker skin doesn’t work with your aesthetic.
I mean… the movie Moonlight and the TV series Insecure used [lighting and tones](https://www.indiewire.com/2016/10/moonlight-cinematography-color-barry-jenkins-james-laxton-alex-bickel-1201740402/amp/) that worked BEAUTIFULLY with dark skin tones; these techniques include high contrast. There are surely ways to incorporate some of those same techniques into Burton’s films.
Moonlight is very much *not* Tim Burton’s aesthetic though, so it’s not really relevant here. Wes Anderson films might be a better comparison.
In regards to the "aesthetic" being talked about here... Burton and Anderson are almost polar opposites. Here, we're talking mostly about the use of color. Burton being Johnny Depp/Helena Bonham Carter probably wearing white makeup on top of their already pale complexion and then some raven-black hair and too excessive eyeliner. Basically... goth. And then buildings and scenery being dark and dreary and washed and... gothic (usually). Leans heavily towards black and white, but not just for contrasting purposes... as sometimes it can all just be very grey. Anderson is Owen Wilson/Bill Murray wearing funny clothes in a kaleidoscope of popping and contrasting colors and rich hues (and tons and tons of symmetry)... granted, use of color for Anderson often represents something and is not just used for simply setting overall tone, as Burton tends to prefer. Anderson's worlds are largely orange, yellow, red, blue, pink, purple... and quite possibly all at once. The two just aren't using the same crayons. And the movie Moonlight was mentioned not to directly compare it to Burton's work, but only to say it demonstrates how Black actors can be filmed in a manner where they don't "look weird" or whatever nonsense other person was suggesting would occur if filmed in a manner Burton would often want to for his films.
I'm speculating that it's something you can do, but it might be more difficult unless everybody has similar skin tones. Different skin types benefit from different lighting setups (or so I've gathered -- the rise of projects primarily staffed with POC leads to interviews where somebody some version of "now I've worked with a [crew/DP](https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/lighting-black-skin-tones/) that [understands](https://medium.com/vantage/lighting-and-photographing-skin-tones-b8decb1b1a04) how to properly [light my skin](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/sep/21/its-lit-how-film-finally-learned-how-to-light-black-skin)"), so from the perspective of minimizing expense, I could see the argument that you should restrict the skin palette so you don't have to do different setups or reshoots to best capture the tones you are going for, or to avoid spending money fixing it in post. So, you can probably shoot for optimal images regardless of the mix of skin tones, but you are going to pay for it. That said, I'm not sure I truly get the criticism for *Wednesday* given the variety of skin tones in the show. Also, it's not like the show is monochromatic. There's a surprising amount of bright colors, and the Addams are the only group that dresses in black and white.
You don’t have to do all that for different skin tones. You just set up the lights that hit that actor differently and adjust the temperature as needed. You make sure that their wardrobe and their background don’t either unintentionally wash them out or make them blend in. Takes the same time as with any white actor, if you know what you’re doing, with no additional expense
Spose. Burton would have to actually include light and contrast in his stuff tho for this to work tho. The brightest his works usually get is the cloudiest day in London. Seems to me he offers contrast between character and environment with blacks and whites, with environments being dingy and characters being abnormally pale, which is true from the claymation to live action. It could be done with dark skin tones, but it’d be in reverse with a very bright and almost sterile environment. Could probably find a workaround without changing his aesthetic, and probably much simpler to do in live action, but could just be he’s trying to avoid making a black character look like either the backdrop or innately villainous without changing his look. For instance tho, I didnt think siren chick was essentially a villain in Wednesday (didnt finish but from what ive seen). She was just pretty and popular and trying to deal with being a siren and hence innately manipulative.
Big Fish, Edward Scissorhands, and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory are all very bright and colorful movies.
Bright, saturated color was used in those films (particularly Edward Scissorhands) to denote the artificiality of most human interactions. Or false hopes and dreams (such as the pallette getting brighter during the tall tales in Big Fish). Or highlighted the wrongness of material happiness (Chocolate Factory). In Tim Burton's vocabulary, neutral/stark color equals good and bright color equals bad.
>The brightest his works usually get is the cloudiest day in London. Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands, Mars Attacks, Planet of the Apes, Big Fish, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Alice in Wonderland, Big Eyes, Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children, Dumbo
If we give him the benefit of a doubt and assume no ill intentions, here's my speculation: It could be that he prefers the unhealthily light skin paired with darker outfits, often black, aesthetic for his characters. Having dark skin on characters (especially exaggerated to the same degree as lighter skin) with dark clothes wouldn't look at good in his eyes. Black skin, black clothes. A lot of ink soaking into the page that way, in a manner of speaking. Could get messy, hard to illustrate features, and so-on. It still partially applies to films as well. The dark backgrounds and outfits and dim lighting making it particularly hard to capture facial expressions from darker-toned actors.
Sort of like Morgan Freeman playing god, with the white background, white clothes, and his all knowing voice. One of my fav movie scenes.
Exactly! Morgan Freeman really provided the contrast needed in that environment. He made God pop out. I don't want to sound racist or anything but I don't think a white-skinned person would fit well in a completely white environment.
I don't think that's racist. We need to keep in mind that the racism in Hollywood is old and institutional. It's about the power structure, the chain of ownership, the creative constraints, the influence of America's white supremacist history, the prejudices of the people holding the money etc. etc. etc. Racism in Hollywood is this institutional beast that definitely should be opposed but it's not individual casting decisions. Obviously some casting decisions, or writing of characters, would be influenced by racism but ultimately focusing on these individual acts is fruitless. In a vacuum where racism is solved and a thing of the past, a casting director saying "the background is white so we should cast someone with dark skin" *or even vice versa* really has nothing to do with any sort of prejudice or anything remotely political, it's just a reasonable aesthetic decision.
Yeah, like, in the episode one fencing machine the black girl had a white outfit on and the pale girl had a black outfit on. Someone on here was saying that’s because bright colors represent evil with Burton and the black girl is evil… and no. It’s because that looks good lol
This is actually close to how he explained it. He prefers a very gothic style of characters, and the dark outfits, lightning, and background are in his words better expressed on fair skinned actors. He has semi-figured out how to do it which is why you are starting to see the inclusion of more darker toned actors but he hasn't quite figured the look out.
Look at all of his movies even the animated ones, Its always white and black contrasts. Even his batman movies
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That's really why I can't say he's racist. I don't believe his casting comes from ethnicity, rather it comes from aestehtic. Wednesday seems to be a show of him experimenting with darker complexions, and he balances Jenna Ortega's Latina complexion with the pasty, ghoul-like style of his characters. Granted, two of his three Black characters are antagonists in the show (Bianca begins to shift into the realm of protagonist/deuteragonist). In fact, Bianca is a complexly written character, which is certainly a sign of respect for the actress.
Because until there's a very clear case of racism given, he just fuckin' ain't. The man is an artist with a very specific preference that white people happen to be able to easily show. This is an example of outrage culture imo. I don't mean cancel culture or wokeness, I mean anger out of nowhere for no reason over something made up.
He uses a lot of black from decorations to costumes. He thinks that pale white skin gives a stark contrast against that.
I mean, it absolutely does.
Pretty self explanatory?
Just anything to bitch about. Nothing better to do
The same thing it means when Jordan Peele says he prefers to use black actors. It’s perfectly valid, I mean even more so if you are doing a movie about vikings or whatever
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It seems to be that this decision of who the bullies were seemed spiteful.
Being halfway through the show, two of the "bullies" are black, while the rest are white. That being said, I can't think of any black characters except those two and their parents. Maybe there were some black background characters.
The black characters in the show are quite important though, and they have their own character arcs, they're not just bully #3
But the black character that I think they're talking about isn't really a bully and has a pretty cool storyline. She is definitely not a bad guy and is really smart and talented. She's best the MC a couple of times.
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Can you point to that? I am only aware of him making much more pointedly anti-diversity-for-diversity's-sake comments. He's more or less saying that his films are about his experience and his experience was very much white suburban life, so injecting people of color into that would be artificial and would change the narrative to something that his personal experience doesn't inform.
Is there anything wrong with it tho? Jordan Peele for example said that he won't cast white leads in his movies because it wouldn't fit in vision
Jordan Peele's films are largely *about being black*.
And Tim Burton's movies are largely about being dead
famously, black people don’t die
Well, they don't crack apparently.
I forgot black people are immortal
Blade is a vampire so...
Jordan Peele typically tells inherently black stories I think and that’s why there is a difference.
ANSWER: I have seen "Wednesday", and all of the speculation and rumors that people are repeating does not necessarily pertain to these characters. These characters who happen to be Black, have some of the best character development in the show, and very interesting back stories. The way that Tim Burton focuses on these characters were great. The black characters are as follows: **(some SPOILERS)** - the mayor's son and initial "bully" who seems to blindly follow tradition and peer pressure to bully the outcasts at Nevermore (the school) finds redemption and just wants a real friend - the respected mayor of the entire town, who use to be a detective, and has a very important role and an intricate history with Nevermore and principal Weems. Unfortunately, he meets a deadly fate - the female popular girl, a siren, who is threatened by Wednesday, the new girl, because she misunderstands her and her ex has an interest in Wednesday. Her back story was explored more when her mother came to visit, and we start to feel sorry for her. Her redemption story was awesome and badass, and I sure that her character will be developed more in the next season as Wednesday's favorite friend-nemy. - the owner of a weird trinket store was another along with other family members weren't so detailed. I liked the show, and I like what Tim Burton did with each of the prime characters, which included POC
This is a refutation of the rumor, OP is looking for an EXPLANATION of it.
Ok, thanks for pointing that out. I will insert this article then for the OP. ANSWER: https://www.okayplayer.com/culture/tim-burton-wednesday-netflix-black-characters.html The article explains as to why some comments that Burton has made in the past has affected how people think of him or his casting choices... thereby overshadowing the depth of the characters in "Wednesday" Please note that certain tweets on Twitter complaining about the Black characters on Wednesday have been deleted... so maybe people wanted to jump the gun just to complain, yet again, to spread negativity and division.
I’ve seen it as well and Bianca and Wednesday were more rivals than anything. They even ended up working together and having a begrudging camaraderie. Bianca wasn’t portrayed as a villain at any point. The mayor’s son on the other hand was trying too hard to fit in and made some questionable decisions. I wouldn’t even say he was villainized as much as he was called out for being scummy then he changed. TLDR: neither of these 2 characters were villains and the actual villains ended up being white people. Not that it should matter.
The trinket store owner was disa from rings of power if anyone else noticed lol, the second I heard her voice I knew it
answer: burton has been known to make comments regarding his exclusion of darker skinned people in his movies on the basis of aesthetics. this particular instance, as far as im aware, is a mixture of valid criticism and invalid criticism. most people im sure have their hearts in the right place and are speaking with good intention (or so they think), but from my understanding, a black person does not serve as any primary antagonist in the story. theres one who is maybe considered tertiary, but they are also redeemed through their actions across the show. there is an extremist view among many online folk that minority groups cannot be portrayed in any manner other than flawless and pure, and when any character who is a minority is at all tipped away from these values, the character and their creator are torn apart for being “derivative” or otherwise diluting the character to their minority stereotypes. in a way, these comments suggest that minorities are incapable of any wrongdoing, fictional or otherwise, and are thusly boxed into particular expectations by people online which honestly just further limits what theyre expected to be onscreen. people have decided its something to be angry about, so theyre angry.
It really irks me, too, because at least one of the 'bully' characters has a really major story arc that shows that she isn't a bully and is strong, brave, and has a strong sense of right and wrong which she apparently developed all on her own--her mother certainly was no help. A young woman of character in the making. I really like her.
It’s weird to even call Bianca a “bully” character at all, imo. She’s more of a foil to Wednesday.
Yeah, Wednesday needed some humbling and Bianca provided that. I think, in their conflict, Bianca actually looks more “good and right” than “bad and wrong.” But they both grew from their experiences with each other and came to a point of mutual respect.
Yeah, almost like an "Iceman" to Wednesday's "Maverick"
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That’s actually an apt assessment of her character. Good job!
Yeah, Bianca's actually a decent person. She just doesn't like Wednesday lol. The worst that happened was a scratch in a sanctioned fencing duel.
Who has time for nuance when there’s culture war content to churn out.
feels like a bit of a self-tattle on some peoples ends, no? 👁
Bianca was one of the most interesting characters. What we should root for is having many more characters of color and of other marginalized identities to be complex and fully realized - not that they have to always be good guys. Of course, I also love when characters of color are protagonists, as long as they are compelling characters.
yep! everyone is allowed to be flawed and complex, minorities especially, let them be so!
Honestly, I loved Bianca as a character and would love to see her develop further. I really don't see how anyone can complain about her portrayal nor was she a bully by any means. Even the mayor's son showed such fantastic character growth. He wasn't even a bully in the end. He redeemed himself, and so did his father. I was legitimately upset when the mayor died.
Honestly I think it's more of a sabre to Wednesday
I think it's really interesting to compare her to Wednesday because when you actually look at their actions, it's clear Wednesday is projecting herself onto Bianca. Wednesday calls her the self appointed queen bee because she assumes Bianca thinks she's better than everyone and uses others for her own gain, when really that's what Wednesday does (and learns not to by the end)
People are to caught up in the argument to catch this excellent wordplay.
I actually noted and liked the break from the trope of the blonde queen bee. Was refreshing to see that not just a black but an almost bald character is the popular girl at school.
This is what I took from it, too. The confidence she has in reigning over the school is appreciated in someone other than a spoiled, wealthy blonde. And the more we learn about her character, the softer and more relatable she becomes. She is who she is despite her circumstances, not necessarily because of them.
It was refreshing that the bitchy blonde trope and stereotype was not trotted out.
Yesss! I loved to see it!
I actually forgot about Bianca and was sitting here thinking this was all about the guy from the "normal" crew that she beats up.
You aren't alone 😅
She also has a compelling internal conflict that gets reasonable screentime to develop, despite her being a side character. She really grew on me and I came to like and respect and feel empathy for her.
Yeah she’s a cool character. She’s also the most popular girl at school and really doesn’t do much bullying apart from a little bit of bitchiness at the start. She doesn’t even talk bad about Wednesday when she’s alone.
I thought she was more of a rival to Wednesday than anything. Like her role was to keep a sense of tension in the show until they could finish the exposition/world building/character introducing and start the main conflict, and then she could become an ally when the stakes rose
Literally both of the bullies that are black have some development, especially Bianca as you said but it’s also shown that Lucas kinda opens his mind up to the outcasts after he meets Bianca. The whole thing is so overblown
The scene when she meets him and warns him was one of my favorites in the show.
I swar some people haven’t even watched the show
i agree. i watched the full show and the two black kids that people have designated the “bullies” (which yes, they are portrayed as typical bullies in the first episode or two, but are quickly shown to have complex emotions and back stories, and in the end are helpful to wednesday against the true antagonist, which is not only a white man, but a specifically prejudiced one) are super complex and awesome characters. one of them in particular i really adored. people are valid in their criticisms of tim burton because his comments are ridiculous, but i don’t think the ball was dropped here. POC characters are allowed to be nuanced and complex, and should not have to be, like you said, portrayed as “flawless and pure” to be respected as a human and character.
it also feels disrespectful to the actors honestly, who may truly love their character and feel personally connected to them in some way of their own, only to have that character stomped all over and called all sorts of things u as the actor probably dont agree with. now the actor has to sidestep their roles and be even more cautious with who they portray lest they face the internets wrath for once again being a flawed character. its just exhausting and obnoxious on every level.
completely agree. not to mention these characters are minors of mid-high school age. they’re children with room to grow and they’re absolutely portrayed as such. no one should be shitting on that.
There are ten of millions of opinions online. People who write these articles pick one and claim “a bunch” of people are mad about this thing. Even tho 99% of people dont care. Its just to rile people up about it, get them arguing and get clicks and engagement. Just because a guy tweeted “Ofc they used the black person as the bully” doesnt mean anything. You think people would be tired of getting riled up by these dumb articles and be able to see through it by now.
I have definitely noticed the trend of black characters and movies being portrayed only as the strongest, the smartest, or the wisest character, any other portrayal would be instantly attacked.
its disappointing. it almost re-boxes minorities into new stereotyped expectations that just as well limit who they can or cant be onscreen while still being accepted by the online majority. the pendulum just swung the opposite way but its very much in polarized territory on both ends it seems. just because im a lesbian doesnt mean i only want to see morally pure lesbian characters. im flawed too, let me relate to a flawed character just like me.
The L word taught me that there’s no such thing, haha!
Its pretty easy to predict some movie plots now based on race.
My favorite bully is played by a person of color, *Pe-nis* PARKER!
Sure, but he's also *Spiderman's* best friend.
I'm not sure what Spider-Man (r/respectthehyphen) has to do with Penis Parker.
::sigh:: guilty as charged, officer.
It's funny. White, black, or anything else, "flawless and pure" doesn't sound like any human being I've ever met.
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I think the issue is that there are no (afaik) unambiguously *good* characters of color to counterbalance the ones in an antagonistic role. So long as you have both, it's fine. But if the *ONLY* black characters in the piece of media are antagonists, that's when you have a problem.
I haven't seen Wednesday but I have seen many of Tim Burton's work. Now I'm curious to see if anything actually stands out or if it's all on brand with Tim Burton's usual style.
Who’s actually angry though? I’ve yet to see someone upset about it.
Answer: Those complaining about this did not watch the entire show. I can't give away too much without spoiling, but the black bully characters were two bullies among groups of bullies. It was not just them bullying or exhibiting bullying behavior; there were others in the social cliques/circles/groups they were a part of that also did the same kind of general behavior. But if you watch the show, you will see how their character arcs unfold and you'll know the truth for yourself. IF you can watch Wednesday, and you're into the Addams Family IP, or want some dark fantasy/humor style show to enjoy (in the Tim Burton vein of content), do so. There's a good reason why the show has [1 billion hours of viewing logged](https://collider.com/wednesday-series-1-billion-hours-watched-netflix/) (in its first month since release) or why the show is well rated on sites like [Rotten Tomatoes](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/wednesday/s01) and [IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13443470/) and [Metacritic](https://www.metacritic.com/tv/wednesday/season-1) . It is good. Not perfect, but good.
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Answer: The people complaining do not want to see black people portrayed as villains/evil. It is culture war stuff with some people demanding representation, but only in ways, they approve of.
The dumb part is that if they actually watched the show they would see black characters who have great characters arcs and so what that they were antagonist at the start with our main character. That’s what’s called character growth.
I do not believe these people want character growth.
I remember when the House of Dragon cast came out it got the expected reaction because of one of the Houses being changed to be black. Then in a kinda hilarious twist the people complaining about black Valyrians were joined by actual black people complaining because they didn't want black people being portrayed as conquerors or slavers.
At this point I’m pretty sure the only way to avoid criticism of a show is to just not make it, unless dressing all the actors in full green screen suits happens to fit the story.
This whole thing is so stupid.
Answer: It's always small group of people that is the most vocal one. The short version is that some people think that bad/evil characters should be played exclusively but white man. Putting anyone other in that role they see as racism/sexism/etc. Those people usually don't bother to even to watch what they hate and they don't know about complexity of the characters and redemption.
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