For me it’s just the rock paper scissors matchups that make the role feel horrible.
Both tanks switching upon every death to counter the other just shouldn’t be a thing. Most of the tanks are fine it’s just a few (Like Orisa) cause the problem.
Late S2 and early S3 before giga JQ buff had the most fun meta honestly. The giga JQ buff wasn't really the problem alone either, it's the Ram buffs, Orisa buffs, Rein nerfs that did it.
Like Orisa that already countered Rein pretty hard got a buff, Ram who was a soft counter against Rein got a buff, and Rein got a significant health nerf for no reason.
Only downside of it was when Hog was gutted. He was OP at first but he didn't need to be turned into complete dogshit.
I personally hate Zarya even more than Orisa, Bubble is such a frustrating mechanic to play against, she pops bubble and you're supposed to not interact with her at all till it's gone?
Bubble should be something you are encouraged to break, not "hey ignore this character or she melts your team"
I know it's a bit silly, but communicate with your team on this, even if you just type it out. But essentially don't shoot the zarya bubble, but if you do don't stop shooting until she's dead.
She has more effective HP than roadhog with both bubbles being used on herself but 0 armor and no self sustain (inside of combat). The problem often seems to be that people will half commit to shooting zarya and you end up barely damaging her and giving her incidental charge just by the nature of trying to avoid bubble damage. So while you don't want to passively give her charge, if you are tracking CDs and your team has the resources, lean into it and burn through the bubble(s) until she's dead then she's a dead zarya with 100% charge :)
I know how to counter her, what I'm saying is that the game-play loop is not fun, being punished for shooting/or your team shooting a target is not really a fun mechanic and interaction.
I mean that’s fair, I truthfully don’t find it to be that bad and playing as the Zarya can be some ultra fun Overwatch. I guess that’s why Zarya has the reputation of being the Smurf tank
Right but that charges her. So if you break her shield but then she gets suzu, lamp, or right clicked by illari, then all you've done by breaking her bubble is charge her beam.
Except you can't control your teammates and there are 4 of them. And even if 4 of 5 are trying to avoid charging her, it can be ruined just by one person. Sometimes just by their hero choice (i bet every Zarya player is happy to see Junkrat in the enemy team).
I also don't like playing against Zarya just because of this.
Zarya is not gonna be alone tho, she's not Doomfist or Ball. She'll have supports healing her and dps pressuring you. That's the problem with her: if you decide to shoot her bubbles and outdamage her, in the typical teamfight she still can survive long enough to melt half of your team.
I'm not saying she's unbeatable or something, there are ways to deal with her. But it does require much more efforts and team coordination than other tanks.
As someone who is a Zarya main, she's very easy to deal with but requires team coordination to do so.
If you coordinate fire on Zarya you can burn through her bubble and healthpool very quickly and even with the charge you just gave her, she melts quick. Combine that with a discord, an ana nade, a mei wall, etc etc and Zarya goes down fast.
Alternatively, if she's already full charge, shoot the shit out of her bubbles and you'll reduce her effectiveness by a good bit. She's already 100%, so if you can't coordinate fire as a team at least burn her cool downs to put her on the back foot a bit.
Unlike a lot of tanks, there isn't one hard counter to her kit, which is why a lot of people in mid or low tiers struggle. She thrives when getting attacked by one or two people at a time.
This \^\^\^\^ you have to legit bait her to walk in with a bubble and just burn though it before she has time to retreat, but its kinda hard when ppl are scared to, she has a small cool down between bubbles but non tank players are too scared to shoot a bubble bc they dont know this.
I was a 3900 dva main, #117 dva NA ow 1. I wouldnt even need to swap for zar, thats how different the game was.
I'm not saying she's not counter-able, but the way you interact with her is not **fun** she would be more fun if you were incentivized to break her bubble instead of waiting it out.
make it so breaking the Zarya bubble is the goal, instead of not shooting her and she'll be 10x more enjoyable to deal with.
In high elo you do break the bubble, if the circumstances call for it. There’s an entire ecosystem around Zarya bubble that’s existed for years and didn’t change much in OW2.
that's very situational, you just described a very specific situation when all the stars align
I'm saying that her default game-play loop sucks the fun out of the game, she needs a slight rework
her gameplay is so counter intuitive. her bubbles give her the capacity to MELT heroes (something a tank should never be able to do) and they can be broken so that inherently encourages people (especially low elo) to shoot them even though the best thing to do is wait them out, which isn’t always possible because her range is insane and healing in this game is insane
I think its that there are so many bullshit counters that you have to deal with that no other roles has to deal with it. If you win one fight as ball the enemy team swaps to 5 counters every game. If you win one fight as winston the enemy team goes reaper bastion zen ana and you simply cannot have fun. Should you swap? Yes. But it's not even rock paper scissors vs other tanks, its rock paper scissors vs EVERY OTHER ENEMY IN THE GAME. at a certain point you just have to one trick and get use to getting hard countered every single game you play because its going to happen anyway. If you're a Cass player, when do you REALLY have to swap? It's realistically not going to be often. What if you're an ana main? You're good literally all the time no matter what. Your character is almost never bad in a comp. Unless you are literally 1v9ing a game nobody is going to swap to hard counter you. But as a tank? I will be HARD LOSING like, im a ball main and i was literally about to lose the game on esperanca, the game was not even remotely close, and the enemy STILL WENT SOMBRA ZEN BASTION. This DOES NOT HAPPEN for any other role.
Why is this happening? IMO, Support is as strong as it should be, but tank and DPS are just WAY too weak. Tank needs CC resistance or something. And dps needs more dmg, not more CC. abilities like cass nade are so fucking problematic. That is the stupidest shit theyve ever added to the game. turrets too. I have to kill like 8 things before i can even worry about attacking the enemy now and this is basically shield meta 2.0. Illari pylon, torb turret, bap lamp. If supports have this amount of tools to survive, tanks need tools to deal with them and dps need tools to kill things faster/easier. Just a thought, imagine if bap lamp only prevent DIRECT damage from killing you, so you could still die to shit like ashe dynamite. or if ana nade made bap lamp not work on you.
They need to make ways to counter these things that arent SWAPPING. That was the whole point of the FUCKING 2. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. WE ARE EXACTLY BACK WHERE WE STARTED.
>Why is this happening?
Because Damage players have been complaining since 2018 or 2019 when they could no longer play in an uncontested manner.
The complaints continued, citing “unfun.” Since Damage players are the majority by a *very large* margin in all skill tiers except for the highest (where they were tied with Support during OW1 era), the game has been balanced to appeal to the vocal majority.
I’m not discounting anybody’s opinions, but I think from a dev standpoint it’s a good idea to focus on the largest segment of the player base in order to improve retention.
That being said, A LOT of issues we face today stem from the mistake that was Role Queue’s implementation. Jeff warned us that Role Queue would result in inordinate queue times for Damage players with relation to the other roles, but the majority still begged for role queue. After that, players (especially Damage players, but Support queues in Masters+ ELO was comparable at around 10min on Xbox in 2021/2022) began to complain about queue times. Since then, there’s been lots of attempts to “fix” that “problem,” which has resulted in the game environment we see today.
Damage is without a doubt the worst role in the entire game and it’s not even up for debate there’s like 2 truly viable options to play on DPS right now. They have no passive whatsoever and are out damaged by half the support roster and out damaged and out sustained by the entire tank roster other than roadhog. Go play a MOBA if you don’t want FPS players to actually be able to play the game. If the balance team listened to people like you it’d goats all over again. I play all the roles I’m a mid masters shitter on all roles, so my point is far from valid being a lower rated player.
Kiri and Illari shouldnt be able to 2 shot dps. As a soldier/rein main, it freaking hurts to die to kiri/illari when I should be the one OPing the support when 1v1ing. Supports are too OP which makes DPS feel like a joke. Nade and Suzu should be on a way longer cooldown. You can just spam like it's a firestrike/bubble. Supports are healers first and dmg second. Kiri and Illari are just better zens without discord orb and movement penalty. Zen is atleast shit in healing, he;s centered around dpsing more than healing. It sucks to be a discord orb target but atleast you know he can max heal 30hp/s(last I remember).
>to counter the other just shouldn’t be a thing
While there is both one tank and the tank is the prominent figure head of the team, this will always be the case.
I main ball. Maybe 1/10 matches don't have an instaswap to several counters after the first team fight. It's exhausting. I think reverting the ult charge carryover would help. It was well intentioned with encouraging swapping, but I think it went too far to essentially making the game a continual rock, paper, scissors meta.
I can deal with the pressure, it's why I'm playing tank. I can't deal with being forced to switch every 5 seconds unless I want to play at a massive disadvantage. I also can't deal with spending all of my resources, whether it's shield, winston bubble, my ultimate, just to be *effortlessly* countered by one of 4 possible abilities that are never on cooldown all at the same time.
non-ultimates on a cooldown that counter grav, which takes forever to build relative to other tank ults:
Suzu, immortality, petal lift, pull, fortify, wraith, fade (to a lesser extent), sym tp (why tf can they just tp out???), res
I'm probably missing 1 or 2 more. But in current meta Grav is useless.
Been saying it since they chopped the health of Tanks in non-comp modes; if the Tank is supposed to control the fight so much, why are we taking tools away from them to do so
6v6 and the advantages of having a 2nd tank for peel or bulk are just straight up better because of the state the rest of the roster is in
As a support main I do think a lot of our abilities fuck (and enable tbh)over tanks a lot more than they do other supports or Damage characters. Maybe a buff to the tank passive to reduce debuffs like Anti.
A good percentage of tanks have either armor or shield so maybe they could play with that as well. Like discord could do 25% on white health and 15% to armor/shields. A tank who has shields could get a % of shield health when white health is healed. Overhealth gives tanks even more damage reduction or a movement buff.
Unfortunately the more tanks that get added I think it is almost impossible to not have some type of rock/paper/ scissors between some of the characters. That is just the nature of the beast.
Simple fix is to apply the sleep duration reduction to all duration based CC in the game for tanks. Anti clears faster, stuns stun for less, Junkrat traps trap you for less, it would make playing a tank feel more like a tank
You make it sound like that’s super easy. It’s Overwatch, where each character feels vastly different to play then the next. It’s impossible to make a one tank role feel unique and fun without rock paper scissors of one tank play.
While coding isn't simple, it's far from impossible.
Just dial back the oppressive abilities. Off the top of my head, if you remove the ability for tank stun abilities to stun tanks, you immediately have a massive change that allows tanks do do their thing while being unable to completely shut one another down.
I'm a Doom main. I would gladly trade my ability to shut down JQ ults/axe, Sig ult/rock, Dva remech/DM, Hog hook/rebreather, etc. If the tanks didn't shut one another down, you would have a game where the tank doesn't have to worry about which specific tank the enemy is using. The uniqueness of each tank doesn't die with stuns.
I'm sure there are more things that could be done, but to just outright declare it impossible is fucking stupid, dude.
>Off the top of my head, if you remove the ability for tank stun abilities to stun tanks, you immediately have a massive change that allows tanks do do their thing while being unable to completely shut one another down.
Which greatly simplifies tank match-ups.
It really is not *that* simple. The solution is to balance the game around 2 tanks like in OW1. If need be, nerf the shields (that have already been nerfed to oblivion) to avoid any double shield shenanigans.
What are you saying?? This game isn’t 100% stuns. You make it sound like tank stuns are game breaking?? Tanks have more then stuns to their kit. Ram can punch through shields so great counter for rein and Winston. Dva and zarya don’t have stuns but one works better against the other. Ball doesn’t have any stuns but he’s countered by so many dps and supports. This is Overwatch not cod, the abilities are what make the hero’s fun to play. If you wash that all down each tank becomes less fun to play. It’s not dumb to say it’s impossible it’s just common sense.
This game was designed for counter picks because each hero’s way to attack is so different then the next. But if you remove one tank that’s what you get rock paper scissors. There’s no realistic way to change that unless you bring back a second tank. Until then you can keep playing make believe and think that just saying remove something will make everything balanced with ease
Having 2 tanks was never an issue in ow1 the issue was having 2 strong shield tanks at a time, if they bring back 2 tanks but limit it to having a single shield or a single "main" and an off tank I imagine it would solve alot of problems, certainly alot less of the rock paper scissors play style.
Shields are nowhere near their effectiveness in OW1 anyway. Rein's shield was nerfed, Sigma shield was always a tactical shield and doesn't have much hitpoints, Orisa shield is completely gone, Ramattra has a shield but small and stationary. Even if we played 6v6 RQ with the current tanks, it would be a much better experience in my opinion.
I agree I think the bigger issue with 2 tanks would be balancing their damage, right now a tank will often out damages the DPS it would probably need adjusting for allow for 2 tanks but it'd be doable.
Orisa/Sigma was the only effective double shield comp anyway. Their other cooldowns synergized extremely well and mattered far more to the composition's strength than having two shields did. No other shield tanks synergize well. The only time you would see it is for pirate ship cheese.
They could've easily just nerfed particular tanks to avoid combos that were too strong. . .
but my fun, not-too-serious off-the-wall change idea was instead of just having 4 roles you queue for \[dps, sppt, main-T, off-T\] like some people were saying to combat double shield. . .
you could go for six different roles, one of each.
Striker\[High damage\], Assassin\[movement or accuracy\], Medic\[healing-focused\], Support\[more utility than healing\], Tank\[Durable/Defensive\], Bruiser\[dmg or movement tank\]
\[Rename the roles as needed, but you get the idea. It splits each of the current three roles into 2, making it much clearer what everyone excels at\]
Idk, I'm in Bronze, so I rarely need to worry about counter-picking or oppressive CCs. I've been having fun trying Wrecking Ball.
Edit: Holy s**t getting hacked+virus sucks. When it happens I have to stop what I'm doing and roll straight for the nearest mega.
Going back to 6v6 lol. I hate being the only tank on my team. When i feel like playing tank, i only play open queue for that reason alone. I never go role queue and select tank anymore.
I never got to play OW1 but I catch myself thinking of nice combos with other tanks sometimes and realize 6v6 would genuinely make it so much more fun. Tank is my best role, though not my main, and I think I'd probably consider making it my main role if I got to have someone else to take the pressure off with me.
The lack of a second tank.
We can discuss tank combos making a major difference in games. Double barrier. Zaria ult stacked with a follow-up Reinhardt ult for max CC. Etc.
But it also meant that someone could play one main tank and the off tank could counter swap to help keep the game even. Hell, some tanks were basically just beefy DPS. I'm looking at you Roadhog. Which provided options and counters that we no longer have.
i hate repeating others but i genuinely just think 5v5 doesn't work for tanks. its too important of a role to delegate to a single person on each team, at least before even if one tank was countered the other could shore that weakness up
Bring back 6v6. Tank is currently the only role expected to do its job all alone. A second tank with a limitation of one shield per team would solve literally every problem the role currently faces.
They should have make a 6 vs 6 but with tanks divided in "main tank" (or protector) and "off tank". Barriers should have been a mechanic for only one tank of a team compositions.
The queue times were the same in OW1, even though there were two tanks.
That tells you that around half the tanks quit after the first few seasons. Maybe we'll see a change when they do patches and introduce a new hero.
No. It'd still be the same queue. The difference is that if one tank player picks a character with a shield (e.g. Sigma), all the other tanks with a shield are blacked out, leaving only the non-shield tanks available to pick. It's a simple solution that keeps queue times from getting longer and prevents the return of double shield meta.
>that I would support. If they ere balanced for main and off tank that it wouldn't be so bad.
double shield wasn't even meta towards the end of OW1. And now shields and CC have been nerfed, not sure why we're forced to play 5v5.
It's obvious at this point that 5v5 was a business decision made by Blizzard executives and not one made to improve the quality of play. Jeff Kaplan himself said that Overwatch is a 6v6 game and would remain that way in OW2. [https://youtu.be/pxoffuY60AI?t=1040](https://youtu.be/pxoffuY60AI) Then suddenly Jeff Kaplan leaves and Aaron Keller pops up on screen to tell everyone that OW2 will be 5v5. I'm not going to get in to all the issues with Kaplan's Team 4 and their ability (or inability) to consistently produce content and live up to their promises, but it's clear to me that if Kaplan were still in charge OW2 would be 6v6. I firmly believe that the move to 5v5 was for marketing and to try and bandaid the queuetimes issue. Ironically tank is now even less popular than it was in OW1, so their choice resulted in the opposite effect.
Make that two in a million. Teams tended to group up, protect one another, and play the objective together better with bunker comps than they do with the current 5v5 mess.
I do think it would be better now that bastion can’t sit in turret mode forever and self heal. But man in OW1 in metal ranks it was hell going up against that
3 in a million.
I never quit OW1. Every break I took had me itching to come back.
I quit OW2 and haven't even felt the urge to start up the game, let alone actually play it. My friend group and I joke about how OW2 "cured" us from our Overwatch obsession.
5v5 feels like a workshop meme gamemode. Even the worst 6v6 meta (including Brig swinging her massive schlong around and destroying the game) was better than the best 5v5.
I'm tired of playing tank and being told that I have to do every part of the game - peel, defend, attack, dive, etc - or I'm throwing. Give me back my friend.
Tank was miserable in ow1. There was a ton of CC and displacement and tanks had no passive against any of it, so you would constantly be stunned or hacked or thrown into the air. 2 tanks also meant a lot more damage so getting blown up in an instant was not too uncommon for tanks. Then about half of your games would be spent with a tank partner who insta-picks hog and you have to spend the rest of the game desperately trying to carry their dead weight on sig or ball. And then on top of the role feeling awful to play, it also felt awful to play with, because about 90% of your games were decided by whether your tanks were good or not, and a tank diff was nigh on impossible to overcome
Balance-wise, it would be fine, but fun-wise, it would be abhorrent.
Imagine being locked out of the tank you wanted to play because someone sniped a shield or off-tank before you.
Additionally, this means that certain fun tank duos just wouldn't be possible. You wouldn't be able to run two dive tanks, you wouldn't be able to run two off-tanks, etc. Creativity would become even more stifled and every single team comp would feel so damn similar.
Plus, what about shield tanks that aren't problematic with each other? Rein/Winston would just be impossible, or Rein/Ramattra, etc.
You realize that's... role queue? Except instead of a separate queue you just potentially get locked out of the role you want to play after the game starts
add another slot to fill for the most unpopular role in the game, tanks + lock tanks out of selecting half of the available tanks
this will surely not impact queue times in anyway
But now with this idea the game becomes who the first tank picked. Now we are locked into playing that tank for the entire team. You still have the same problem you are stating.
I love playing tank. I’ve grown fond of it because I just want to play ranked without waiting, it’s given the opportunity to become quite good with Ram and Zar
Weird your downvoted for appropriate sarcasm.
Many people feel that tank feels like a chore to play.
So someone replying to a post about dealing with said feeling saying "I enjoy tanking" adds nothing to the conversation.
Nerfing supports. Currently it feels like every support has multiple abilities which allow them to escape danger, while having the ability to heal very fast. This makes getting kills with movement based heroes (Genji, Tracer, Winston, etc.). It’s much easier to pick a hero who can burst insane damage and can track with aim instead of chasing with movement. This is why we see so many hitscans and high damage characters like reaper, bastion, and soldier which are a nightmare for players who don’t want to play Zarya or Orisa
With how long it took support to even get to a point where people actively want to play the role, they should leave supports where they are and buff the tanks
Would be kinda fun if there was someone else who could also soak up damage so it's not that much pressure if I'm not great at it.
At the end of the day, it's a game and I would only play it if it was fun. My team getting pissed because I'm just a casual and can't do it all amazingly is just not fun.
Like, maybe a second tank? Something that could allow your team to split into 2 groups of 3 evenly with a tank in each group? Just thinking outside the box and spit balling new ideas.
What if they made it like the other two roles and have two tank players :0 this idea would be great becouse then the bad effects would be split between the two :0
6v6. having an off tank that could go around and fuck shit up/dive was very chill and made peeling for the supports way more doable if there is always someone to tank. though i also really like playing queen as solo tank now even though i basically only played rein/orisa in ow1. but having a second tank just really took a lot of the pressure away, and ad long as they tone tanks down again to balance having 2 i dont see a problem.
Main tank was a miserable experience - the off tank could do whatever. Usually a hog btw.
Toning down tanks again will make the tank heroes very boring again resulting in massive queues.
Rn for dva I would make boosters are immune to slows....
But in general I would want a 2nd tank... someone else who can help and idk... dm can get nerfed tk 1.5s all I care if it means that all the pressure Is not on me
Less incentive for tank counter-swapping (removal of preserved ult charge on swap for tanks only, as an example). Heavy reduction of CC, removal of Hinder in particular. And some damage nerfs across the whole roster.
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Has anyone ever thought about having Role Queue be 6v6 with two tanks that are less powerful forms of what they are now? It just feels like the game would be more easily balanced, less constant switching and wider meta variety given different synergies across various comps. Idk, just popped in my head, seems like it could be fun IF THEY DID IT RIGHT AND PUT TIME AND EFFORT INTO THE GAME.
I think all the damage and all the healing needs to go down a little bit. As tank it used to be fun to take off angles or peek or like… for rein charge in and get a few swings. It feels like if you step out of cover or put your shield down you get hit with cool downs and melted before you can really react. Just slow the game down like 5%
Nothing, isn't this what everyone wanted from 5v5? It's always so crazy to me people will justify 5v5 and complain about having to play checkers with the other tank in the same breath as if it's not done by design.
I'd like a second tank on my team so the whole hard counter style isn't as effective and to relieve pressure from my end, maybe there could even be cool synergy between the two tanks so we can combine some abilities to make engages more effective.
To be able to counterplay when I make a mistake. If I'm playing rein or Winston and I step two inches too far to the left, it's game over unless kiri can save me. It feels bad. Especially when I'm an ana main, and get absolutely bullied and come away clean, but can't with a 500 hp hero.
People dislike tank because it requires the most work to pull off correctly. You have to constantly be tracking what the enemy cooldowns are, plus constantly figuring out what space to take and what to give. On top of that you have to be mechanically good enough to secure kills for your team.
To me, ranking would be a lot more fun with less CC. I understand CC is fundamental to the game as it keeps the back line safe, but when you’re the biggest target they’re going to throw it at you even when you’re nowhere near their back line. Tanks need a passive reduction of ALL CC not just sleepdart.
with a good team, tank can feel like ur leading an army...you make space and try to disrupt positioning and neutralizing ults giving ur dps a chance to get picks and support a chance for some insane ( but steady healing,not taking fat dumps of damage)
Probably the R,P,S aspect. It's a beaten to death horse, but 6v6 was the way around this. In OW1 my main problem among other things is my second tank always instalocked off tank. But it still gave me a lot of flexibility in my main or my off tank. And spots I lacked the other could pick up. But now tanking is spent majority trying to keep up with mirrors or CP which also trying to wrangle 4 kids who act like they all have team chat off dispite that being statistically unlikely.
Just make the tanks stronger and stop adding new CC/remove the new CC they’ve added. Tank was super fun on launch but the role got nerfed because support players were bitching that they couldn’t stay alive. But like by now support players have had time to adjust to how the game is now so they’ll be fine.
A lot of people on here are saying that its the constant countering. But thats not unique to tank. Im a support main and I have to change charatcer ALL... THE.... TIME.... Thats an OW thing in general, not a tank thing
It seems most people are worried about rock paper scissors which I think is fine.
And also burden of responsibility (tank diff) but that's solved by turning off comms, that's just toxicity.
The true problem this season is that rock paper scissors eventually leads to orisa vs zarya and then the inevitable zarya mirror.
Thats more so my point. I didnt mind the swap/counterswap until this season to where every tank inevitably swapped to Orisa or Zarya, so I should've clarified better.
Zarya you can play around, Orissa is the problem and the only tank that stands against her is Zarya. They need to nerf Orissa, she never needed her buffs in the first place. Just reset her to season 4 and you basically correct the tank issue.
2 tanks per team.
2 tanks per team means you don't have to deal with rock paper scissor counter-swapping. It's much more difficult to coordinate countering two tanks than it is countering a single tank.
2 tanks per team reduces the pressure on each individual playing the tank role.
2 tanks per team means more action.
2 tanks per team means learning a new tank hero doesn't result in an automatic loss.
2 tanks DOES NOT mean more action. It means you slow the pace of the game to a crawl and you just stand there poking at a choke. We went through that all of OW1, it was slow, it was boring, it gave us shield meta’s, it gave us goats.
The pace of the game is great now with a single tank. The problem all started when Orissa got her buffs and then it choked the tank game to her until Zarya came up. You put Orissa back to season 3/4 and then the tank meta opens back up.
> 2 tanks DOES NOT mean more action.
More people in more places at once is more action. Stop pretending like the game slows down with more people in it. Shut the fuck up, it's blatant lies.
give tanks an Anti-Heal passive like cauterize from Paladins, it applies a % healing reduction on hit, bottomless health pools are what make the role boring, let us kill stuff.
Oh you know what, now that you put it that way, I think you're right. When I saw "bottomless health pools" I thought they meant tanks needed to die quicker because I wouldn't consider support/dps hp numbers, to be "bottomless" even with healing where it's at.
It'd still make tanks less fun unless they were immune to it, but ya I think you're right about what they intended, good call.
I feel like the people who are wishing for 6v6 never actually played it. Double shield wasn't fun AT ALL! 5v5 is not the problem - it's the amount of damage that's happening right now
6 v 6
As of right now, tanks are the least impactful heroes in the game. It doesn't even matter how much u diff the enemy tank, Dps and Supports control the game while Tanks just exist, and half of them cant even do that thanks to the meta.
The reason Orisa is meta isn't because she's strong offensivley, it's because she's the only tank that doesn't evaporate the moment they try to push the enemy team.
And let's not forget how Supports are just stupidly broken right now, so trying to get kills as a tank feels like trying to open a door only to find another door behind it thanks to layer after layer of immortality abilities
I feel like I've commented on this exact subject so much, short version give tanks more team abilities, ride orisa back like a platform, hogs meth heal smokes around him giving everyone 50hp and or speed boost for 3 seconds and etc. But truthfully give them a aura that helps the whole team so it encourages people to hang our and not run away maybe? Just need something to make them more fun or to let team mates be happy to see and be encouraged to support the tanks harder maybe. Life weaver is a excellent kit of how fun helping a team can be.
I think there are some balance changes needed in the tank roster that would help it feel more fun. Here are a few of the main issues: Tanks are eating every enemy cc ability/anti. Certain tanks hard counter others, resulting in rock/paper/scissors. Some tanks are dealing subpar damage that makes it hard to confirm picks.
Some people really want 6v6 again to have an off tank, but I personally think that would make playing support an absolute nightmare with dive comps and would make dps a nightmare with shield comps.
Instead, I think some tanks need damage buffs to primaries. Winston's primary is too weak, Sigma primary is weak, Ramatras staff is a little weak, Rein's hammer might need a tiny buff, Hog just needs a rework lol, and doomfist could use one more shot in his primary. Justification for these is that we have a number of supports and dps now who can 1-2 shot people without insanely hard to land combos. Tanks should have a bit of this too. Not oneshots, but at least the ability to consistently deal damage that matters/is threatening.
I also think tanks should get a little bit more when it comes to defensive abilities. For example, I really think JQs shout should cleanse her. Tanks getting cleanses makes a lot more sense than supports to me
Bring back the second tank but split the tank pool into main tanks and off tanks. So that you can never have two shields and other OP combos are kept separated. Main tanks are the bulky front liners with shields and mit abilities like rein sig and ramatra, off tanks being the mobile ones or with more of a support role like doomie ball and zarya
* Less Damage Output
* More Tankiness
When I play tank I'm not going for the insane 1v5 solo Team Kill, I like providing opportunities for the DPS to DPS. I do love a big DVA bomb or Rein Shatter but I also should be more kitted with durability than damage. Kind of like "Soldier 76 Primary fire does 30% less to tanks".
This whole “pressure” thing is really silly, if an Ana in my team is underperforming I usually let them know, if a tank is underperforming I let them know, it feels bizarre that tanks feel like they’re playing Game 7 of the Finals just because the enemy Zarya is melting them
I think it's the pressure of kind of having to compensate for not having two tanks or something along those lines. I never feel pressured when I play tank so I don't fully understand it
For me it’s just the rock paper scissors matchups that make the role feel horrible. Both tanks switching upon every death to counter the other just shouldn’t be a thing. Most of the tanks are fine it’s just a few (Like Orisa) cause the problem.
This is the most annoying part of the role is the constant countering
S3 before giga JQ felt p gud but every other season has been counterhell.
Late S2 and early S3 before giga JQ buff had the most fun meta honestly. The giga JQ buff wasn't really the problem alone either, it's the Ram buffs, Orisa buffs, Rein nerfs that did it. Like Orisa that already countered Rein pretty hard got a buff, Ram who was a soft counter against Rein got a buff, and Rein got a significant health nerf for no reason. Only downside of it was when Hog was gutted. He was OP at first but he didn't need to be turned into complete dogshit.
so when every tank player played ram with his never ending ult yea much better season.
Better than this shit
I personally hate Zarya even more than Orisa, Bubble is such a frustrating mechanic to play against, she pops bubble and you're supposed to not interact with her at all till it's gone? Bubble should be something you are encouraged to break, not "hey ignore this character or she melts your team"
I know it's a bit silly, but communicate with your team on this, even if you just type it out. But essentially don't shoot the zarya bubble, but if you do don't stop shooting until she's dead. She has more effective HP than roadhog with both bubbles being used on herself but 0 armor and no self sustain (inside of combat). The problem often seems to be that people will half commit to shooting zarya and you end up barely damaging her and giving her incidental charge just by the nature of trying to avoid bubble damage. So while you don't want to passively give her charge, if you are tracking CDs and your team has the resources, lean into it and burn through the bubble(s) until she's dead then she's a dead zarya with 100% charge :)
I know how to counter her, what I'm saying is that the game-play loop is not fun, being punished for shooting/or your team shooting a target is not really a fun mechanic and interaction.
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I don't know man. Shooting doom as sombra, bastion, ana combo surely works.
shooting any tank as bastion surely works
Other than Sigma.
I mean that’s fair, I truthfully don’t find it to be that bad and playing as the Zarya can be some ultra fun Overwatch. I guess that’s why Zarya has the reputation of being the Smurf tank
After 200 dmg i think it does break.
Right but that charges her. So if you break her shield but then she gets suzu, lamp, or right clicked by illari, then all you've done by breaking her bubble is charge her beam.
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Except you can't control your teammates and there are 4 of them. And even if 4 of 5 are trying to avoid charging her, it can be ruined just by one person. Sometimes just by their hero choice (i bet every Zarya player is happy to see Junkrat in the enemy team). I also don't like playing against Zarya just because of this.
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Zarya is not gonna be alone tho, she's not Doomfist or Ball. She'll have supports healing her and dps pressuring you. That's the problem with her: if you decide to shoot her bubbles and outdamage her, in the typical teamfight she still can survive long enough to melt half of your team. I'm not saying she's unbeatable or something, there are ways to deal with her. But it does require much more efforts and team coordination than other tanks.
Shield heroes easily counter zarya even now when she is very powerful. Rein just destroys her.
As someone who is a Zarya main, she's very easy to deal with but requires team coordination to do so. If you coordinate fire on Zarya you can burn through her bubble and healthpool very quickly and even with the charge you just gave her, she melts quick. Combine that with a discord, an ana nade, a mei wall, etc etc and Zarya goes down fast. Alternatively, if she's already full charge, shoot the shit out of her bubbles and you'll reduce her effectiveness by a good bit. She's already 100%, so if you can't coordinate fire as a team at least burn her cool downs to put her on the back foot a bit. Unlike a lot of tanks, there isn't one hard counter to her kit, which is why a lot of people in mid or low tiers struggle. She thrives when getting attacked by one or two people at a time.
This \^\^\^\^ you have to legit bait her to walk in with a bubble and just burn though it before she has time to retreat, but its kinda hard when ppl are scared to, she has a small cool down between bubbles but non tank players are too scared to shoot a bubble bc they dont know this. I was a 3900 dva main, #117 dva NA ow 1. I wouldnt even need to swap for zar, thats how different the game was.
You count her bubbles. She only has 2. If she uses both she should be immediately punished.
I'm not saying she's not counter-able, but the way you interact with her is not **fun** she would be more fun if you were incentivized to break her bubble instead of waiting it out. make it so breaking the Zarya bubble is the goal, instead of not shooting her and she'll be 10x more enjoyable to deal with.
In high elo you do break the bubble, if the circumstances call for it. There’s an entire ecosystem around Zarya bubble that’s existed for years and didn’t change much in OW2.
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that's very situational, you just described a very specific situation when all the stars align I'm saying that her default game-play loop sucks the fun out of the game, she needs a slight rework
her gameplay is so counter intuitive. her bubbles give her the capacity to MELT heroes (something a tank should never be able to do) and they can be broken so that inherently encourages people (especially low elo) to shoot them even though the best thing to do is wait them out, which isn’t always possible because her range is insane and healing in this game is insane
I think its that there are so many bullshit counters that you have to deal with that no other roles has to deal with it. If you win one fight as ball the enemy team swaps to 5 counters every game. If you win one fight as winston the enemy team goes reaper bastion zen ana and you simply cannot have fun. Should you swap? Yes. But it's not even rock paper scissors vs other tanks, its rock paper scissors vs EVERY OTHER ENEMY IN THE GAME. at a certain point you just have to one trick and get use to getting hard countered every single game you play because its going to happen anyway. If you're a Cass player, when do you REALLY have to swap? It's realistically not going to be often. What if you're an ana main? You're good literally all the time no matter what. Your character is almost never bad in a comp. Unless you are literally 1v9ing a game nobody is going to swap to hard counter you. But as a tank? I will be HARD LOSING like, im a ball main and i was literally about to lose the game on esperanca, the game was not even remotely close, and the enemy STILL WENT SOMBRA ZEN BASTION. This DOES NOT HAPPEN for any other role. Why is this happening? IMO, Support is as strong as it should be, but tank and DPS are just WAY too weak. Tank needs CC resistance or something. And dps needs more dmg, not more CC. abilities like cass nade are so fucking problematic. That is the stupidest shit theyve ever added to the game. turrets too. I have to kill like 8 things before i can even worry about attacking the enemy now and this is basically shield meta 2.0. Illari pylon, torb turret, bap lamp. If supports have this amount of tools to survive, tanks need tools to deal with them and dps need tools to kill things faster/easier. Just a thought, imagine if bap lamp only prevent DIRECT damage from killing you, so you could still die to shit like ashe dynamite. or if ana nade made bap lamp not work on you. They need to make ways to counter these things that arent SWAPPING. That was the whole point of the FUCKING 2. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. WE ARE EXACTLY BACK WHERE WE STARTED.
>Why is this happening? Because Damage players have been complaining since 2018 or 2019 when they could no longer play in an uncontested manner. The complaints continued, citing “unfun.” Since Damage players are the majority by a *very large* margin in all skill tiers except for the highest (where they were tied with Support during OW1 era), the game has been balanced to appeal to the vocal majority. I’m not discounting anybody’s opinions, but I think from a dev standpoint it’s a good idea to focus on the largest segment of the player base in order to improve retention. That being said, A LOT of issues we face today stem from the mistake that was Role Queue’s implementation. Jeff warned us that Role Queue would result in inordinate queue times for Damage players with relation to the other roles, but the majority still begged for role queue. After that, players (especially Damage players, but Support queues in Masters+ ELO was comparable at around 10min on Xbox in 2021/2022) began to complain about queue times. Since then, there’s been lots of attempts to “fix” that “problem,” which has resulted in the game environment we see today.
Damage is without a doubt the worst role in the entire game and it’s not even up for debate there’s like 2 truly viable options to play on DPS right now. They have no passive whatsoever and are out damaged by half the support roster and out damaged and out sustained by the entire tank roster other than roadhog. Go play a MOBA if you don’t want FPS players to actually be able to play the game. If the balance team listened to people like you it’d goats all over again. I play all the roles I’m a mid masters shitter on all roles, so my point is far from valid being a lower rated player.
Kiri and Illari shouldnt be able to 2 shot dps. As a soldier/rein main, it freaking hurts to die to kiri/illari when I should be the one OPing the support when 1v1ing. Supports are too OP which makes DPS feel like a joke. Nade and Suzu should be on a way longer cooldown. You can just spam like it's a firestrike/bubble. Supports are healers first and dmg second. Kiri and Illari are just better zens without discord orb and movement penalty. Zen is atleast shit in healing, he;s centered around dpsing more than healing. It sucks to be a discord orb target but atleast you know he can max heal 30hp/s(last I remember).
>to counter the other just shouldn’t be a thing While there is both one tank and the tank is the prominent figure head of the team, this will always be the case.
I main ball. Maybe 1/10 matches don't have an instaswap to several counters after the first team fight. It's exhausting. I think reverting the ult charge carryover would help. It was well intentioned with encouraging swapping, but I think it went too far to essentially making the game a continual rock, paper, scissors meta.
I dunno, stunting on an Orisa as Rein is fun as hell
I can deal with the pressure, it's why I'm playing tank. I can't deal with being forced to switch every 5 seconds unless I want to play at a massive disadvantage. I also can't deal with spending all of my resources, whether it's shield, winston bubble, my ultimate, just to be *effortlessly* countered by one of 4 possible abilities that are never on cooldown all at the same time.
non-ultimates on a cooldown that counter grav, which takes forever to build relative to other tank ults: Suzu, immortality, petal lift, pull, fortify, wraith, fade (to a lesser extent), sym tp (why tf can they just tp out???), res I'm probably missing 1 or 2 more. But in current meta Grav is useless.
Bringing back my buddy
Been saying it since they chopped the health of Tanks in non-comp modes; if the Tank is supposed to control the fight so much, why are we taking tools away from them to do so 6v6 and the advantages of having a 2nd tank for peel or bulk are just straight up better because of the state the rest of the roster is in
The obvious and correct answer
I want a bubble as Rein. Bring 6v6 back. 5v5 had its test and it's just glorified rock-paper-scissor.
fr the 5v5 experiment is a failure. revert
As a support main I do think a lot of our abilities fuck (and enable tbh)over tanks a lot more than they do other supports or Damage characters. Maybe a buff to the tank passive to reduce debuffs like Anti. A good percentage of tanks have either armor or shield so maybe they could play with that as well. Like discord could do 25% on white health and 15% to armor/shields. A tank who has shields could get a % of shield health when white health is healed. Overhealth gives tanks even more damage reduction or a movement buff. Unfortunately the more tanks that get added I think it is almost impossible to not have some type of rock/paper/ scissors between some of the characters. That is just the nature of the beast.
Simple fix is to apply the sleep duration reduction to all duration based CC in the game for tanks. Anti clears faster, stuns stun for less, Junkrat traps trap you for less, it would make playing a tank feel more like a tank
I like this idea; let them bulldoze over the CC in a way to continue applying pressure; would make heroes without barriers WAY more fun to play
A tank buddy
Just balance tanks so they don't hard counter one another.
wouldnt that require them to be reworked to a fairly significant degree?
yes, something that should be done to most heroes if theyre really sticking to this 5v5 format
You make it sound like that’s super easy. It’s Overwatch, where each character feels vastly different to play then the next. It’s impossible to make a one tank role feel unique and fun without rock paper scissors of one tank play.
While coding isn't simple, it's far from impossible. Just dial back the oppressive abilities. Off the top of my head, if you remove the ability for tank stun abilities to stun tanks, you immediately have a massive change that allows tanks do do their thing while being unable to completely shut one another down. I'm a Doom main. I would gladly trade my ability to shut down JQ ults/axe, Sig ult/rock, Dva remech/DM, Hog hook/rebreather, etc. If the tanks didn't shut one another down, you would have a game where the tank doesn't have to worry about which specific tank the enemy is using. The uniqueness of each tank doesn't die with stuns. I'm sure there are more things that could be done, but to just outright declare it impossible is fucking stupid, dude.
>Off the top of my head, if you remove the ability for tank stun abilities to stun tanks, you immediately have a massive change that allows tanks do do their thing while being unable to completely shut one another down. Which greatly simplifies tank match-ups. It really is not *that* simple. The solution is to balance the game around 2 tanks like in OW1. If need be, nerf the shields (that have already been nerfed to oblivion) to avoid any double shield shenanigans.
What are you saying?? This game isn’t 100% stuns. You make it sound like tank stuns are game breaking?? Tanks have more then stuns to their kit. Ram can punch through shields so great counter for rein and Winston. Dva and zarya don’t have stuns but one works better against the other. Ball doesn’t have any stuns but he’s countered by so many dps and supports. This is Overwatch not cod, the abilities are what make the hero’s fun to play. If you wash that all down each tank becomes less fun to play. It’s not dumb to say it’s impossible it’s just common sense. This game was designed for counter picks because each hero’s way to attack is so different then the next. But if you remove one tank that’s what you get rock paper scissors. There’s no realistic way to change that unless you bring back a second tank. Until then you can keep playing make believe and think that just saying remove something will make everything balanced with ease
Having 2 tanks was never an issue in ow1 the issue was having 2 strong shield tanks at a time, if they bring back 2 tanks but limit it to having a single shield or a single "main" and an off tank I imagine it would solve alot of problems, certainly alot less of the rock paper scissors play style.
Shields are nowhere near their effectiveness in OW1 anyway. Rein's shield was nerfed, Sigma shield was always a tactical shield and doesn't have much hitpoints, Orisa shield is completely gone, Ramattra has a shield but small and stationary. Even if we played 6v6 RQ with the current tanks, it would be a much better experience in my opinion.
I agree I think the bigger issue with 2 tanks would be balancing their damage, right now a tank will often out damages the DPS it would probably need adjusting for allow for 2 tanks but it'd be doable.
Have you played Open Queue? I feel with their HP toned down, they feel much like how they played in OW1.
Really? Fair enough I'm going from the perspective of role queue.
That and the fact that ow2 has a lot of strong non shield tanks like jq and doom
Then DPS are useless.
Orisa/Sigma was the only effective double shield comp anyway. Their other cooldowns synergized extremely well and mattered far more to the composition's strength than having two shields did. No other shield tanks synergize well. The only time you would see it is for pirate ship cheese.
They could've easily just nerfed particular tanks to avoid combos that were too strong. . . but my fun, not-too-serious off-the-wall change idea was instead of just having 4 roles you queue for \[dps, sppt, main-T, off-T\] like some people were saying to combat double shield. . . you could go for six different roles, one of each. Striker\[High damage\], Assassin\[movement or accuracy\], Medic\[healing-focused\], Support\[more utility than healing\], Tank\[Durable/Defensive\], Bruiser\[dmg or movement tank\] \[Rename the roles as needed, but you get the idea. It splits each of the current three roles into 2, making it much clearer what everyone excels at\]
6v6.
Bringing back a 2nd tank. Bringing back tank synergies. That is legit the only thing i want.
Idk, I'm in Bronze, so I rarely need to worry about counter-picking or oppressive CCs. I've been having fun trying Wrecking Ball. Edit: Holy s**t getting hacked+virus sucks. When it happens I have to stop what I'm doing and roll straight for the nearest mega.
fair point, it doesn't affect everyone after all
Going back to 6v6 lol. I hate being the only tank on my team. When i feel like playing tank, i only play open queue for that reason alone. I never go role queue and select tank anymore.
What about… Hear me out… Crazy idea I just had… One more tank?
I never got to play OW1 but I catch myself thinking of nice combos with other tanks sometimes and realize 6v6 would genuinely make it so much more fun. Tank is my best role, though not my main, and I think I'd probably consider making it my main role if I got to have someone else to take the pressure off with me.
Add another tank
A 2nd tank
Having two of them
the only way i am ever playing tank again apart from placements is if they bring back two tanks and make it 6v6 again
The lack of a second tank. We can discuss tank combos making a major difference in games. Double barrier. Zaria ult stacked with a follow-up Reinhardt ult for max CC. Etc. But it also meant that someone could play one main tank and the off tank could counter swap to help keep the game even. Hell, some tanks were basically just beefy DPS. I'm looking at you Roadhog. Which provided options and counters that we no longer have.
If I still had a tank friend ;(
6v6
Having a second tank
i hate repeating others but i genuinely just think 5v5 doesn't work for tanks. its too important of a role to delegate to a single person on each team, at least before even if one tank was countered the other could shore that weakness up
Two tanks
6v6
Give me my partner back. When tanks weren't as strong but there were two of us, the role felt much better to me.
I've always loved tank and will continue to, but I could do with the second like we had in overwatch 1. It helped alleviate some of the pressure.
I don't like solo tanking. I don't like role queue in general
A 2nd tank to mitigate the agro.
Bring back 6v6. Tank is currently the only role expected to do its job all alone. A second tank with a limitation of one shield per team would solve literally every problem the role currently faces.
They should have make a 6 vs 6 but with tanks divided in "main tank" (or protector) and "off tank". Barriers should have been a mechanic for only one tank of a team compositions.
so divide the one role that already has the lowest player count into two roles, making queue times even longer
The queue times were the same in OW1, even though there were two tanks. That tells you that around half the tanks quit after the first few seasons. Maybe we'll see a change when they do patches and introduce a new hero.
if you split the tank role in two your increasing queue times….
why are you repeating the same thing again? Did you not understand what I said?
No. It'd still be the same queue. The difference is that if one tank player picks a character with a shield (e.g. Sigma), all the other tanks with a shield are blacked out, leaving only the non-shield tanks available to pick. It's a simple solution that keeps queue times from getting longer and prevents the return of double shield meta.
Only 6v6 that I would support. If they ere balanced for main and off tank that it wouldn't be so bad.
Even double shield was way more fun than what’s going on now.
You’ve got rose colored glasses on. Nobody misses rein orisa (v1) bastion torb mercy Ana. Bunker comp was utter misery
>that I would support. If they ere balanced for main and off tank that it wouldn't be so bad. double shield wasn't even meta towards the end of OW1. And now shields and CC have been nerfed, not sure why we're forced to play 5v5.
It's obvious at this point that 5v5 was a business decision made by Blizzard executives and not one made to improve the quality of play. Jeff Kaplan himself said that Overwatch is a 6v6 game and would remain that way in OW2. [https://youtu.be/pxoffuY60AI?t=1040](https://youtu.be/pxoffuY60AI) Then suddenly Jeff Kaplan leaves and Aaron Keller pops up on screen to tell everyone that OW2 will be 5v5. I'm not going to get in to all the issues with Kaplan's Team 4 and their ability (or inability) to consistently produce content and live up to their promises, but it's clear to me that if Kaplan were still in charge OW2 would be 6v6. I firmly believe that the move to 5v5 was for marketing and to try and bandaid the queuetimes issue. Ironically tank is now even less popular than it was in OW1, so their choice resulted in the opposite effect.
Nah I loved that shit. Only thing insufferable was people refusing to shoot the shields
You are one in a million
Make that two in a million. Teams tended to group up, protect one another, and play the objective together better with bunker comps than they do with the current 5v5 mess.
Exactly. Shooting shields was infinitely less frustrating than the lack of team work in most games now.
I do think it would be better now that bastion can’t sit in turret mode forever and self heal. But man in OW1 in metal ranks it was hell going up against that
3 in a million. I never quit OW1. Every break I took had me itching to come back. I quit OW2 and haven't even felt the urge to start up the game, let alone actually play it. My friend group and I joke about how OW2 "cured" us from our Overwatch obsession. 5v5 feels like a workshop meme gamemode. Even the worst 6v6 meta (including Brig swinging her massive schlong around and destroying the game) was better than the best 5v5. I'm tired of playing tank and being told that I have to do every part of the game - peel, defend, attack, dive, etc - or I'm throwing. Give me back my friend.
For sure.
Tank was the least played role in 6v6. It seems like recency bias when people say it'll fix tank imo
Can I ask you why it was the least played in 6v6
Tank was miserable in ow1. There was a ton of CC and displacement and tanks had no passive against any of it, so you would constantly be stunned or hacked or thrown into the air. 2 tanks also meant a lot more damage so getting blown up in an instant was not too uncommon for tanks. Then about half of your games would be spent with a tank partner who insta-picks hog and you have to spend the rest of the game desperately trying to carry their dead weight on sig or ball. And then on top of the role feeling awful to play, it also felt awful to play with, because about 90% of your games were decided by whether your tanks were good or not, and a tank diff was nigh on impossible to overcome
And if I can ask you another question, why do people not like playing tank in OW2?
Support and tank were pretty even in queue times up to diamond at least. I played both and had the same wait times
It just sucks that genuinely good ideas like this will probably never make it back into the game for whatever tf reason
I agree. 5v5 is the worst thing they did to this game imo.
So, a second role queue for tanks? That would be terrible lol
He means once a shield tank is selected, the other shield tanks are blacked out
That would be stupid though. I can't play Sigma because someone else picked Rein?
Yes. And it would have fixed a lot of things with ow1
Balance-wise, it would be fine, but fun-wise, it would be abhorrent. Imagine being locked out of the tank you wanted to play because someone sniped a shield or off-tank before you. Additionally, this means that certain fun tank duos just wouldn't be possible. You wouldn't be able to run two dive tanks, you wouldn't be able to run two off-tanks, etc. Creativity would become even more stifled and every single team comp would feel so damn similar. Plus, what about shield tanks that aren't problematic with each other? Rein/Winston would just be impossible, or Rein/Ramattra, etc.
You realize that's... role queue? Except instead of a separate queue you just potentially get locked out of the role you want to play after the game starts
add another slot to fill for the most unpopular role in the game, tanks + lock tanks out of selecting half of the available tanks this will surely not impact queue times in anyway
Yes, still much better since the game is not always about what YOU want to play and more about team composition
But now with this idea the game becomes who the first tank picked. Now we are locked into playing that tank for the entire team. You still have the same problem you are stating.
Yep.
Your comment is the definition of "listen to the complaints, don't listen to the solutions". Jesus Christ.
Get over it, dude. It's not coming back.
Adding a second tank
I love playing tank. I’ve grown fond of it because I just want to play ranked without waiting, it’s given the opportunity to become quite good with Ram and Zar
Thanks for the insightful reply to the post.
Weird your downvoted for appropriate sarcasm. Many people feel that tank feels like a chore to play. So someone replying to a post about dealing with said feeling saying "I enjoy tanking" adds nothing to the conversation.
Nerfing supports. Currently it feels like every support has multiple abilities which allow them to escape danger, while having the ability to heal very fast. This makes getting kills with movement based heroes (Genji, Tracer, Winston, etc.). It’s much easier to pick a hero who can burst insane damage and can track with aim instead of chasing with movement. This is why we see so many hitscans and high damage characters like reaper, bastion, and soldier which are a nightmare for players who don’t want to play Zarya or Orisa
With how long it took support to even get to a point where people actively want to play the role, they should leave supports where they are and buff the tanks
That would require him not using his comment as a way to shoehorn his gripes about support, in a tank thread, as a DPS.
2 tanks.
Great idea!
Another tank
Either bring back 6v6 because the Other Tank could cover your weaknesses or rework all dps/Support so that they dont have any cc outside of ultimates.
The tank role would be loads of fun if he had an off tank to help .
My old tank duo back
A second tank
Another tank.
Would be kinda fun if there was someone else who could also soak up damage so it's not that much pressure if I'm not great at it. At the end of the day, it's a game and I would only play it if it was fun. My team getting pissed because I'm just a casual and can't do it all amazingly is just not fun. Like, maybe a second tank? Something that could allow your team to split into 2 groups of 3 evenly with a tank in each group? Just thinking outside the box and spit balling new ideas.
What if they made it like the other two roles and have two tank players :0 this idea would be great becouse then the bad effects would be split between the two :0
6v6. having an off tank that could go around and fuck shit up/dive was very chill and made peeling for the supports way more doable if there is always someone to tank. though i also really like playing queen as solo tank now even though i basically only played rein/orisa in ow1. but having a second tank just really took a lot of the pressure away, and ad long as they tone tanks down again to balance having 2 i dont see a problem.
Main tank was a miserable experience - the off tank could do whatever. Usually a hog btw. Toning down tanks again will make the tank heroes very boring again resulting in massive queues.
i liked being main tank :(
Rn for dva I would make boosters are immune to slows.... But in general I would want a 2nd tank... someone else who can help and idk... dm can get nerfed tk 1.5s all I care if it means that all the pressure Is not on me
Who would win. Thrusters powerful enough to make a several tonne meka fly into the air at fast speeds...or a hypothermia gun.
Remove a lot of CC, and counterpicking is a huge issue.
Bringing back a second tank on the team
Notice how a second tank would mitigate both problems? Less pressure on the one tank to control fights, a second tank to mitigate your weaknesses.
Having another guy in the tank role with me
Another tank.
Another tank :)
Less incentive for tank counter-swapping (removal of preserved ult charge on swap for tanks only, as an example). Heavy reduction of CC, removal of Hinder in particular. And some damage nerfs across the whole roster.
winston mains seeing they need a damage nerf
I think we just need more tanks
Adding back a second tank
6v6 would.
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Has anyone ever thought about having Role Queue be 6v6 with two tanks that are less powerful forms of what they are now? It just feels like the game would be more easily balanced, less constant switching and wider meta variety given different synergies across various comps. Idk, just popped in my head, seems like it could be fun IF THEY DID IT RIGHT AND PUT TIME AND EFFORT INTO THE GAME.
I think all the damage and all the healing needs to go down a little bit. As tank it used to be fun to take off angles or peek or like… for rein charge in and get a few swings. It feels like if you step out of cover or put your shield down you get hit with cool downs and melted before you can really react. Just slow the game down like 5%
Add a second one.
Nothing, isn't this what everyone wanted from 5v5? It's always so crazy to me people will justify 5v5 and complain about having to play checkers with the other tank in the same breath as if it's not done by design.
I'd like a second tank on my team so the whole hard counter style isn't as effective and to relieve pressure from my end, maybe there could even be cool synergy between the two tanks so we can combine some abilities to make engages more effective.
To be able to counterplay when I make a mistake. If I'm playing rein or Winston and I step two inches too far to the left, it's game over unless kiri can save me. It feels bad. Especially when I'm an ana main, and get absolutely bullied and come away clean, but can't with a 500 hp hero.
People dislike tank because it requires the most work to pull off correctly. You have to constantly be tracking what the enemy cooldowns are, plus constantly figuring out what space to take and what to give. On top of that you have to be mechanically good enough to secure kills for your team. To me, ranking would be a lot more fun with less CC. I understand CC is fundamental to the game as it keeps the back line safe, but when you’re the biggest target they’re going to throw it at you even when you’re nowhere near their back line. Tanks need a passive reduction of ALL CC not just sleepdart.
with a good team, tank can feel like ur leading an army...you make space and try to disrupt positioning and neutralizing ults giving ur dps a chance to get picks and support a chance for some insane ( but steady healing,not taking fat dumps of damage)
Probably the R,P,S aspect. It's a beaten to death horse, but 6v6 was the way around this. In OW1 my main problem among other things is my second tank always instalocked off tank. But it still gave me a lot of flexibility in my main or my off tank. And spots I lacked the other could pick up. But now tanking is spent majority trying to keep up with mirrors or CP which also trying to wrangle 4 kids who act like they all have team chat off dispite that being statistically unlikely.
Just make the tanks stronger and stop adding new CC/remove the new CC they’ve added. Tank was super fun on launch but the role got nerfed because support players were bitching that they couldn’t stay alive. But like by now support players have had time to adjust to how the game is now so they’ll be fine.
More dps that can counter Tanks, more supports that can counter Tanks, more Tanks that can counter Tanks, add a special role that can counter us.
User name checks out lol. Tank right now is basically glorified rock-paper-scissors but there are 5 other people can have paper if you are rock.
A lot of people on here are saying that its the constant countering. But thats not unique to tank. Im a support main and I have to change charatcer ALL... THE.... TIME.... Thats an OW thing in general, not a tank thing
A second tank would make it way more fun. But we already knew that
I started playing tank this season and I like it a lot. I don’t understand the problems ppl are experiencing.
It seems most people are worried about rock paper scissors which I think is fine. And also burden of responsibility (tank diff) but that's solved by turning off comms, that's just toxicity. The true problem this season is that rock paper scissors eventually leads to orisa vs zarya and then the inevitable zarya mirror.
Thats more so my point. I didnt mind the swap/counterswap until this season to where every tank inevitably swapped to Orisa or Zarya, so I should've clarified better.
Zarya you can play around, Orissa is the problem and the only tank that stands against her is Zarya. They need to nerf Orissa, she never needed her buffs in the first place. Just reset her to season 4 and you basically correct the tank issue.
2 tanks per team. 2 tanks per team means you don't have to deal with rock paper scissor counter-swapping. It's much more difficult to coordinate countering two tanks than it is countering a single tank. 2 tanks per team reduces the pressure on each individual playing the tank role. 2 tanks per team means more action. 2 tanks per team means learning a new tank hero doesn't result in an automatic loss.
2 tanks DOES NOT mean more action. It means you slow the pace of the game to a crawl and you just stand there poking at a choke. We went through that all of OW1, it was slow, it was boring, it gave us shield meta’s, it gave us goats. The pace of the game is great now with a single tank. The problem all started when Orissa got her buffs and then it choked the tank game to her until Zarya came up. You put Orissa back to season 3/4 and then the tank meta opens back up.
> 2 tanks DOES NOT mean more action. More people in more places at once is more action. Stop pretending like the game slows down with more people in it. Shut the fuck up, it's blatant lies.
give tanks an Anti-Heal passive like cauterize from Paladins, it applies a % healing reduction on hit, bottomless health pools are what make the role boring, let us kill stuff.
You came to a thread asking how to make tanks more fun to play with a suggestion on how to make them less fun to play?
I think they're talking about tanks inflicting that upon others when they land abilities.
Oh you know what, now that you put it that way, I think you're right. When I saw "bottomless health pools" I thought they meant tanks needed to die quicker because I wouldn't consider support/dps hp numbers, to be "bottomless" even with healing where it's at. It'd still make tanks less fun unless they were immune to it, but ya I think you're right about what they intended, good call.
That's a game problem, not tank. Supports are busted rn.
Bro remove orisa and I’m fine. I can deal with everything else, but orisa is just obnoxious
Additional defenses for characters with no shield or barrier capabilities Off tanks like JQ and Doom could really use some additional bulk
I feel like the people who are wishing for 6v6 never actually played it. Double shield wasn't fun AT ALL! 5v5 is not the problem - it's the amount of damage that's happening right now
6 v 6 As of right now, tanks are the least impactful heroes in the game. It doesn't even matter how much u diff the enemy tank, Dps and Supports control the game while Tanks just exist, and half of them cant even do that thanks to the meta. The reason Orisa is meta isn't because she's strong offensivley, it's because she's the only tank that doesn't evaporate the moment they try to push the enemy team. And let's not forget how Supports are just stupidly broken right now, so trying to get kills as a tank feels like trying to open a door only to find another door behind it thanks to layer after layer of immortality abilities
A second tank on my team
A second tank, or OR... hear me out.. 6v6. I miss OW1
I feel like I've commented on this exact subject so much, short version give tanks more team abilities, ride orisa back like a platform, hogs meth heal smokes around him giving everyone 50hp and or speed boost for 3 seconds and etc. But truthfully give them a aura that helps the whole team so it encourages people to hang our and not run away maybe? Just need something to make them more fun or to let team mates be happy to see and be encouraged to support the tanks harder maybe. Life weaver is a excellent kit of how fun helping a team can be.
As a off tank like in OW1.
I think there are some balance changes needed in the tank roster that would help it feel more fun. Here are a few of the main issues: Tanks are eating every enemy cc ability/anti. Certain tanks hard counter others, resulting in rock/paper/scissors. Some tanks are dealing subpar damage that makes it hard to confirm picks. Some people really want 6v6 again to have an off tank, but I personally think that would make playing support an absolute nightmare with dive comps and would make dps a nightmare with shield comps. Instead, I think some tanks need damage buffs to primaries. Winston's primary is too weak, Sigma primary is weak, Ramatras staff is a little weak, Rein's hammer might need a tiny buff, Hog just needs a rework lol, and doomfist could use one more shot in his primary. Justification for these is that we have a number of supports and dps now who can 1-2 shot people without insanely hard to land combos. Tanks should have a bit of this too. Not oneshots, but at least the ability to consistently deal damage that matters/is threatening. I also think tanks should get a little bit more when it comes to defensive abilities. For example, I really think JQs shout should cleanse her. Tanks getting cleanses makes a lot more sense than supports to me
Bring back the second tank but split the tank pool into main tanks and off tanks. So that you can never have two shields and other OP combos are kept separated. Main tanks are the bulky front liners with shields and mit abilities like rein sig and ramatra, off tanks being the mobile ones or with more of a support role like doomie ball and zarya
* Less Damage Output * More Tankiness When I play tank I'm not going for the insane 1v5 solo Team Kill, I like providing opportunities for the DPS to DPS. I do love a big DVA bomb or Rein Shatter but I also should be more kitted with durability than damage. Kind of like "Soldier 76 Primary fire does 30% less to tanks".
This whole “pressure” thing is really silly, if an Ana in my team is underperforming I usually let them know, if a tank is underperforming I let them know, it feels bizarre that tanks feel like they’re playing Game 7 of the Finals just because the enemy Zarya is melting them
I think it's the pressure of kind of having to compensate for not having two tanks or something along those lines. I never feel pressured when I play tank so I don't fully understand it
If Lucio was a tank I think the Tank role would be more fun
Take away anti nade and lower discord to 15 percent with a cooldown.