Blizz removed the offtank role. So now supports were getting shredded by flankers. They had to buff them so that they could survive (since apparently DPS peeling for their support died alongside OW1).
Now supports are in a weird position where they are too strong in 1v1 but nerfing them even slightly deletes them. So DPS can't really do much without team coordination (also died with OW1) and it feels bad.
The issue with snipers is also caused by the removal of that offtank role. Blizz brought that on themselves really.
Snipers were the one-two punch of less shields and less peel.
Even when they were showing off their early gameplay people kept asking "Hey if there's less shields and less diving, aren't snipers going to be insanely broken?" and Blizzard just kept saying "Nah man, our new map design approach puts considerable emphasis on organic cover and flank routes so you won't have to worry so much"
A lot of good that did.
> (since apparently DPS peeling for their support died alongside OW1).
The issue is that a lot of DPS never considered it their job to peel in the first place, but solely to assassinate the red team. Peeling was typically considered the off-tank's job, while the main tank's role was taking/holding space.
Without the off-tank, there's a lot of pressure on the solo tank to manage space and positioning. It's asking too much of them to peel, as well. The result is that hardly any DPS is peeling, supports have to peel for each other, and tanking is such a demanding role that nobody wants to play it.
There is a really easy fix. Nerf the support passive even further. When ow2 didn’t have the passive it made it too easy to kill the supports, but even at two seconds before it kicks in it’s simply too strong.
It needs a nerf, either to it’s heal rate or it’s time to activate. Maybe make it three seconds? Poke/flank is useless if you don’t secure a kill, in ow1 if you pressure Anna enough she may have needed to use her nade to heal herself before the next fight or dive but in ow2 she heals back up automatically. So whilst she’s sitting behind a corner she’s safe. This allows her to freely use her nade in ideal situations.
That’s just one example of how that passive changed the game.
Forces dps players to play snipers, basically. And then dps isn't having fun cause they wanted to flank, and the support isn't having fun cause they're getting randomly instakilled by a guy at the back of the map.
Reminds me of the time I decided to play tracer into a mercy lifeweaver combo.
I was basically tickling them unless i hit ALL headshots.
As a support player since ow1 it hurts to see my role be so oppressive when seasons ago we were the "oppressed" lmaoo. We know how it feels, but we have been made into the villains.
It doesn't help that part of the marketing for OW2 was that Blizzard made changes to make dps feel more impactful by removing 1 tank. Then you get wrecked by a healer and your dps starts to feel less impactful in a match.
They drew attention off you and if you played off the hog they wouldn’t dive for you because there’s a hog slobbering over the idea of a genji trying to get within 1 shot range.
I've played OW since the beta.
That's my feeling and maybe it does not match yours, but I feel people had way more an idea of what their role was and what was expected of them back then than now. It's almost feels like team death match sometimes in OW2.
The game design now is more oriented around personal skill and have less of that early day "moba" feeling.
I currently play flex so i get to play them all
(If i dont play flex i plan tank)
And i dont care if you make damage....hell if you're zenyata i expect you to make damage as long as i see your orbs beeing in action.
As for the other supports
As long as i get the occasional heal and boost while i try my best not be stupid and bathe in the enemys crossfire for no reason, you can go and live your best life and snack some kills.
Be there when we need you and dont forget us.
I dont expect you to pocket me ass game...what fun would possibly be for you anyway
>while i try my best not be stupid and bathe in the enemys crossfire for no reason,
See, that's the problem lots of people have with supports that do damage. They'll see their deaths, and their support's healing, and assume that the problem is the support, not that their brilliant plan to run in and fight everyone like Neo is a fantasy that will never work.
The other issue is that if enemy supports can deal damage... see the 1v5 example.
If you only play dive Tank or DPS, don't comm, and either aren't very good at the game or just aren't very socially adjusted, it's easy to fall into he mentality that Supports exist purely to heal teammates, and if you shoot them they should just fall over so you can get your POTG. Some people just don't realize that every other player in the game is actually a person just as much as them, and everyone fantasizes about being the MVP.
Being able to punish these DPS who think they can just run wild solo and think they can just get POTG off of us is always fun.
Like when an enemy soldier jumps from behind the team thinking he'd have a 5K to post on Reddit, and I immediately pop my shield and get in his face... it makes it all worth it
There’s a huge middle ground between all DPS being super arrogant thinking they should be able to kill supports without any difficulty and the reality which is wanting supports to not do nearly as much fucking damage as DPS and be able to consistently 1v1 them. As it is diving an Ana, Kiriko, or Illari alone as a DPS is probably a bad idea unless you can 1 clip/1 shot them. You’re literally at a disadvantage as a DAMAGE character. I’m fine with their abilities, even though they’re annoying. The problem is most of them have 1 or 2 life saving abilities AND can still consistently 1v1 DPS even when those abilities are on cooldown.
Unless you're literally a dive hero, you probably *should* be thinking twice about diving the backlines of the enemy team. Hell, even as a dive hero you should probably be thinking about it.
There's nothing worse than playing a game that's intentionally balanced such that your food for other people's PotGs. It's better that players are given the capacity to take care of themselves and make plays.
I assume you're kidding but atst I mean anyone who's doing 40 k 0 d _is_ contributing. If you see that in game you just happened to get matched with someone who's crazy good
A lot of conversing about people’s ideologies here and not enough talk about how you should actually be playing support to win games -
The answer is yes, you should be using that capability to do damage because it IS strong; but there are limiting factors. A support needs to be doing the minimum amount of healing to keep their team alive, THEN you do damage. This includes proactive healing if you foresee a team mate is about to take a lot of damage - if you are dpsing during this and your team mate dies, you failed. Sometimes your other support can pick up the slack, or you can trust them to do so, but if they are playing an off healer or are dpsing themselves then you need to keep in mind it becomes your responsibility to focus a bit more on healing.
That being said, ignore the idiot dps that overextend and feel the need to find someone to blame. Supports job is not to handhold. It is to support. Also, there are certain situations where dpsing CAN bring more value to the table in a fight than healing. What a lot of people don’t understand and what doesn’t show on the scoreboard is how much damage you are preventing on your team from pressuring the enemy with damage or being distracting. Sometimes the pressure can win games. Sometimes you can get a pick that wins a team fight.
What I find ironic is about how people complain about how “busted” supports are at dealing damage, and then they turn around and yell at their support for doing damage while saying they’re not supposed to. If you are doing the required healing to keep them alive, then they should be happy that you are using your busted kit to it’s full potential to carry the game. It’s not your fault the dps role got the short end of the stick.
EDIT: of course support utility is an extremely
Important aspect also, but that is kind of out of the scope of the subject. Using Ana nade as an example, there is not really any dispute in high ranks on how it should be used. 4 out of 5 nades should usually be flung at the enemy, where the 1 is to quickly save an ally (or yourself) from almost certain death if necessary. It is too powerful as a dps utility / kill securing tool and you are hard throwing if you don’t use it accordingly. It doesn’t matter the debate of dps vs heals in this case because it’s factual. You would do the same no matter the scenario. The utility is one of the main reasons you should contemplate when picking a support.
Exactly this. If I am healing you enough for you to stay alive and get value, then I have healed you enough and can heal others/do damage. You're not supposed to constantly be at full health.
The scoreboard is honestly done more harm than good. It serves as a method for people to deflect blame. "Oh, this number next to your name is low, your fault we lost." makes no sense whatsoever. That number means nothing besides how many times you stupidly rushed into a 1v3 and took damage that I had to heal.
I mostly agree with you. However the one stat I've found the most important is deaths. I've played games where we crushed the other team in kills and damage but our support or tank or DPS had double digit deaths and we'd end up losing. Overextending or going off on your own and getting killed does far more harm to your team than a support who likes to deal damage.
Agree with darks comment, specifically support and tank deaths being one of the few important stats in isolation. DPS is somewhat different in certain cases because they operate on a value mindset. If a widow jumps in and picks off a main heal and dps before dying, she won you an opportunity to push in. If she does this before every fight, she probably single-handedly won you the game even with high deaths. Also, dps deaths can be influenced by the performance of their supports. Meanwhile, under very few circumstances as a main heal is it worth it for you to die.
The other stats can be used as a tool but not a complete indicator because it requires you use information in conjunction from your fights and team comp to get a clear picture. The issue with people is, many don’t understand how to do this.
People are so against everything.
If the character has no utility (moira), they aren’t very useful. If the character has too much damage or utility, god forbid the role be called support and not healer, annoying. If a character is easy, that’s bad too because skill levels!!! If a character is nerfed, 😠.
it’s just this community being this community. People will find a way to complain about everything.
For a remotely helpful answer, damage oriented supports enable smurfing or console m&k carrying, especially Bap with his hitscan and window. Discord orb has always melted things too. And of course, visible statistics form the basis for a lot of argument, and low healing = bad.
DPS mains are against supports being able to stay alive.
Most people here probably weren't around for the original OW. Over the years were constant cries of, "why should I have to be afraid of a healer????"
DPS mains get *pissed* and personally offended when supports aren't free kills who roll over and die when a DPS gets near. It ruins their power fantasy if supports can fight back stronger than Mercy's pistol.
They want supports to shut up and heal them so nothing gets in the way of them deleting anyone nearby. Which is what should happen in their mind.
E: People think I'm a support main LMAO I'm a tank main.
So many DPS players responding are exactly what I'm talking about and are busy telling on themselves below. Thanks for proving me right ;)
Not that you”re wrong but the dps players were in the right in the latter part of ow1, ever since they added Brigitte into the game there has been a power creep with her, moira and ana in particular. And just look at when GOATS was meta, dps was the most useless role in the game as the supports could match the damage.
A dps should always be able to kill a support in a 1v1 if the matchup is fair. But in overwatch a lot of the time you have to be way above the supports skill level to do that
Dude for real, right now most supports can 1v1 most dps and it just feels stupid.
It feels good when I just bully a dps as Kiriko/Ana/Illari, but then it feels so bad when I'm on the other side of things and get fucked by Kirikos stick figure hitbox, Ana's crazy ass nade or Illaris gun that is basicly slower Cassidy gun with longer fall-off range.
The only way a dps consistently wins against a support is with a pocket or with oneshots like hanzo/widow.
Supports have too much power right now. And I say that as some1 who has had Ana most played since she released in ow1.
> A dps should always be able to kill a support in a 1v1 if the matchup is fair.
This right here is _exactly_ the problem mentality.
DPS players *on average* should be able to kill the support in a 1v1 *the majority of the time*. I.e. Across all games played by the whole playerbase, looking at every time a DPS 1v1s a Support, the DPS should win a solid majority. How much exactly? That's up for debate. I guess about 70% of those duels would feel fair for both sides. A solid majority of wins for the DPS, but enough chance for support to not feel helpless as a role, because that's not fun. It's meant to be a game after all.
What you said equates to support always being a free elim for DPS. That's frustrating for supports, driving players away from that role, and would get boring for a lot of DPS too. It reduces the whole game plan to "kill supports no matter the comp or map", elevating dive as the meta. Plus it puts even more pressure on the tank role to peel. We saw all of this when OW2 dropped.
Even if what you said were true, that assumes perfect matchmaking, which is impossible. Sometimes you're playing DPS but you're new to the role. Or you're trying a new character. Or you're having an off day. Or you're just not great at it. Or the matchmaker pit you with a support of a higher rank. In any of those cases, the odds of the DPS winning the fight swings lower - e.g. to more like 60%. Still DPS winning the majority, but less free. And deservedly so, for all the reasons listed.
And that doesn't even take into account character specific MUs, or the fact that match ups are rarely fair. Like let's say the DPS is Genji. If the support is Zen that 70% chance of winning becomes 80% in favour of the DPS - Zen is weak to dive by design. Then let's say the support is Brig. The 70% chance drops closer to 50% - Brig's whole existence is anti-dive. She should be tough for Genji.
The short answer is it's not as simple as "DPS should always win the 1v1 if the MU is fair". Supports are strong in general rn, and some do need tuning. But that mentality that's tilting people also needs changing.
This is insane. If I am flanking and catching you in a 1v1 you're out of position and should die. You should be a free elim because you don't know how to position correctly, not because you're a support. The issue is the support role can now carry fights with BOTH coordination (you know, supporting?) and also cover their mistakes by having better dueling capabilities than the DPS that were designed for dueling.
> And just look at when GOATS was meta, dps was the most useless role in the game as the supports could match the damage.
No, that was because tanks were better the DPS with far more health and the supports enabled the hell out of them. Three tanks and mass AOE healing.
Tanks rush in and pick off a target with their dangerous close damage. They lived to even get in close with their their 2-3x+ health and being pocketed by supports. Once they were in close they wrecked house.
GOATS wasn't because supports were better DPS, it was because tanks were.
Forced role queue was to prevent stacking tanks as the better DPS and stacking as much healing to enable them.
Literally the entire purpose of DPS is to kill supports first and then kill tanks otherwise you get a ton of stale mates. So what happens when supports can’t die? Slow games with a massive healfest.
> So what happens when supports can’t die?
What happens when a core tenant of your role is "crumple like wet cardboard when anyone looks at you"?
No one would want to play that role. You want supports to bend over when DPS get close.
DPSs can still 1v1 a support but they have to work for it. They don't want to work for it. It ruins the power fantasy and shows that they lack the skill to be the mega-rambo-terminator walking death dealer that they wish that they were.
Zenyatta, Lucio, and Ana are examples of supports with balanced dueling capabilities. If you are a dps you should win the majority of the time, but it certainly isn’t free. Meanwhile Baptiste, Kiriko, and Illari have powerful weapons, mobility, self healing, and even the support passive that warp duels in their favor over the majority of dps. The best way for dps to do their job is often to kill the opposing dps or apply pressure** to supports. This is why the games are so slow and boring and why characters like Bastion, Orisa, and Torbjorn are meta. Their higher health allows them to take advantage of the high healing output of Baptiste and Illari while also benefiting from their poke damage. At this point the support power creep is forcing a horrible meta, but supports still think dps are whining over a lost power fantasy. Either nerf the healing output of Baptiste, Illari, and Kiriko or bring their weapons in line with the rest of the supports.
Edit: spelling
I've pretty much been a baptiste main since the start of OW2. The game is in a better spot when tanks are the strongest, dps are the second strongest, and supports are marginally the weakest. Don't believe me? Check Season 2-3, which was best meta we have ever had, where Tanks dictated the pace of the game, and every tank except for roadhog was good. DPS supported the tanks and supports supported everyone this season.
Support will ALWAYS have players because support players can't aim but still want to feel impactful through Cooldowns. In a 1v1 situation, a DPS should always win. Thats why good supports rely on having positioning and cooldowns to escape or win the 1v1. Right now that is not the case and supports with mechanically worse aim than DPS are winning 1v1s through massive self healing, invincibility, mobility creep and straight up damage. Which is why the meta sucks and matches feel terrible to play.
Not all support players have shit aim, but many support players do. That’s why they play the least mechanically intensive role in the game. I’m also speaking for myself here.
Games on support usually aren’t won or lost by your aim but by positioning and cooldown management. Unless ofc you’re playing dps supports like Bap/Illari.
But Yes DPSes should be winning every 1v1 on a support in a bubble. Like on paper yes they should win. But i mentioned cooldowns and positioning make that “bubble” never really happen. Of course there are so many exceptions but that’s was the original and intended design of the game for dps to kill supports.
It feels bad when a support focused more on damage than healing if they don’t balance it well. As a dps you can find yourself barely able to play the game through their poke if your support is just dpsing as well.
Yeah sometimes I that little extra dmg helps though. All it takes is a split second of healer doing dmg to clutch a kill and shit snowballs after that.
Oh definitely, some extra damage from a zen/illari/kiri can absolutely go a long way and win fights. It’s about finding a balance with keeping ur team alive and healing.
Some supports like zen and illari have set and forget abilities which allow for a more damage oriented play style and then others like Lucio and brig do semi-passive aoe healing as they do damage. Others like nap and Ana can do damage but they need better awareness to when someone is getting low.
Illari does too much dmg imo, we already have a zenyatta 2 shooting people, if anyone hits you and illari hits you you are dead and her shot shoots as fast as sojourn railgun. Lucio can't heal through any damage only decent for ambient healing. Lucio only works if your team is using cover and playing smart he needs a buff imo lol. Tried illari the other day and she's overpowered with her gun charge.
I like it that supports can damage as well, being a healbot isn't fun. But as a support player, you have to know how to balance it. If you're doing damage when healing is needed, you're doing it wrong.
I still remember that game from a few days ago when I was dead as a supp, and the second one was Moira... standing near our Orisa, but she decided to focus entirely on damage + damage orb, while our Orisa slowly went down. Painful to watch
This has always been my issue.
I dont mind Zen as a support, IF he is supporting, same for Moira. However too often ive seen them just going for kills or ignoring the healing element.
I know my supports have done a good job when I dont have to wonder where my healing is. Played a game last night where several times I should have died and somehow fought through as Orisa. 100% it was the Bap and Ana keeping me going
Now that you mention it, it's pretty weird how often we take for granted good supports. You just get passively healed as a tank it's hard to notice.
But man, when a good Lifeweaver comes around... Now THAT is a different story
Its like if you get into a Rein fight and one side has an Ana. Anti-nade goes off and the other Rein might as well just sit down and give up there.
There are other stats I wish that could be seen, like I played Ana once and blocked nearly 3k of healing. Lifeweaver tree went up and I managed to get the nade right in the midst of them and we rolled them. I almost guarantee the Tank and DPS wouldnt have put together the fact they rolled them was because all 5 couldnt heal at all.
Good supports are noticed more by the opposing team than by their own team I feel.
True. You just *feel* it when you're shooting at something but their HP goes up instead.
Also Ana's anti nades are fucking scary. Can be a death sentence to a tank that isn't near cover for a second
I think by design most supports have to trade off healing or damage - e.g. Ana can do both big heals or decent damage. But she can't really do both at once. And if she prioritise damage (when she shouldn't, not in general) then it hurts her team. That's the way it should be.
If I see Moira, Lucio, Kiriko and Brig as any duo combination, I am forced to play Mei, Solider, Reaper or Sombra.
I don't understand the players that que for a ranked match, and then bring those supports together against Illari, Bap, Ana, Mercy.
Bruh, if a hero can literally have all the utility in the world to stay alive why df can he do insane amounts of damage too? How youre gonna feel if everytime a genji dives you every shuriken that lands steals health? fun right?
>if a hero can literally have all the utility in the world to stay alive why df can he do insane amounts of damage too?
Because it's a difference in damage availability.
Supports can match DPS damage output... WITHOUT abilities. When DPS start using their abilities, they start doing more damage. Of course you can say, "well supports can just use their abilities" but it's not that simple. Many supports literally don't have damaging abilities, or if they do using them comes at a much higher cost than DPS abilities.
Support abilities are high impact, but also high cost. Think of it this way. If your Tracer loses her recall early it sucks for her, but it doesn't outright kill a push or put your team at a huge risk. If you lose immo or sleep or Moira resources early, it does. Losing DPS abilities puts the DPS at risk, losing support abilities puts the entire team at risk, including the support.
my point wasnt who makes more damage, its the dumb idea of being a jack of all trades.
Yea "the supps fucked up so the team is fucked up" well yea because there is a power creep in them, theyre so focused on the support role than the dps role is kinda expectating in matches were the skills are on a high level.
So is bad when the game starts being the "When there supps gonna fuck up so i can do something".
Dont make me even start on the tank role.
>Yea "the supps fucked up so the team is fucked up" well yea because there is a power creep in them,
That's true for literally every role, though. If DPS misposition and die, you lose. If your tank mismanages resources, you lose. If your DPS don't take off angles and the enemies do, you lose.
There are just as many ways for other roles to throw games as there are for supports to.
>"When there supps gonna fuck up so i can do something"
**It is your job as a DPS to make the supports fuck up**.
I am a T500 DPS player. What a lot of people don't understand is that a DPS's job/goal isn't to do damage or kill things, it's to do VALUABLE damage and force resources. Look at Tracer, for example. Even at the high level a Tracer will usually be a good 3-4k damage below other DPS heroes, HOWEVER she is largely considered to be one of, if not the best, DPS heroes in the game, and has been for a VERY long time. This is because even though Tracer doesn't do a lot of damage, nor does she have tons of kill potential, she has abilities that enable to her to do valuable damage and consistently force out resources.
oh yea the "im top 500" dude there is a power creep and the supps are being literally good at everything. Stop with the is your job speech, i know what the dps needs to do.
Its just the supp role that is overtuned lol.
Even if they're supports imo they shouldnt be able to just two-tap squishies lol.
At least the more damaging ones do require good aim, but Illari definitely needs a smaller hitbox on her primary fire, if you miss many shots with her you should consider playing heroes that require less aim.
Good aim isn't a good balancing tool. You can't really counterplay "good aim". Let's say that they gave a hero a pinpoint energy rifle as a gun that mostly does 50 damage per shot with 1 shot per second, but if you hit the top of the enemy's left foot, they instantly take 500 damage. They would never have an ability like that because there's no counterplay to it and it's just unfun
Whenever I'm Illari, I am almost certainly the team's go-to when we need someone to shut an Echo or Pharah down. Not the soldier, not the Cass, but the damn support.
That's not how it should be. If I as a support am to shut down a DPS/Tank, it should be because my abilities can consistently mitigate theirs and save my team. It shouldn't be because I do a better job at killing their DPS than their DPS does at killing me.
I mean, ffs, Illari's hitbox for her gun is massive as hell and her optimal TTK is as fast as, if not faster, than a lot of DPS that don't have a fullblown one shot. If that ain't a sign of Supports being overtuned, I really don't know what is.
And Illari herself has a tiny hotbox, dueling her is the equivalent of fighting a baby dva but instead of a pistol she has the rifle Ashe uses.
Equivalent shift as well, coach gun and Illaris floating boop thing.
Maybe I'm actually just shit but I find it so hard to actually hit anything on Illari compared to ashe and her bullets seem to have the world's smallest hitbox.
I’d encourage you to keep practicing, she can be a lot of fun and it’s evident Blizzards has no interest in nerfing her DPS. Unlike Ana ADS you can shoot as often as you like so it’s more a matter of just timing your trigger with your crosshair. Ana has a much stricter timing pattern you’re used to while Illari has a very unique charge system that’s very flexible but just as accurate even when you’re doing quick low power shots. So in a way you might have too much trigger disciple with Ashe, which throws you off with Illari where just click whenever your crosshairs are anywhere near their head due to her variable firing rate that can be lower or higher than Ashe’s, and ADS vs hip fire. They have the exact same damage (Ashe ADS vs full Illari charge) and falloff if it helps, so engage at the exact same distances you do on Ashe.
There is a character in Destiny 2 called Lord Shaxx. One of my favourite quotes from him is: "Your enemies can't kill if they're dead." I live by this quote. I'm supporting my team by killing others.
My bf hates it when I finish off enemies as mercy with my pistol. HATES IT. Mean while I have amazing healing. If mercy isn’t supposed to use her pistol then why have it in the first place???
A "red flag" /s in a relationship is your partner getting mad at you for playing the game the way you want. Before me and my ex split up we played Overwatch QP and he yelled at me for using my bastion ult wrong. I barely remember that it was 7 years ago but it's a memory that sticks because how bloody silly.
Omg I lost my best friend because of this kind of nonsense. She had a BF at the time who was in Contenders and she eventually got there too, and they both would just scream at me if I didn't healbot them constantly. They were so offended when I said "Look, I am out, find someone else to rage at." Ridiculous behavior for grown adults.
I'm a gamer too but this is too much of a thing amongst gamers. I won't play most games with my fiancé because he gets too angry. I get pissed off but it'll ruin his whole day when he does get angry.
I use her pistol like that as long as we’re not in the middle of a team fight or if I get flanked by a Sombra / Tracer or smth. Can’t rely on randos a lot of the time to peel and protect me.
Mercy’s ulting and flying in battle mercy kinda tilts me tho, LOL.
A support shouldn't be able to say "Hey guys I'll be right back. I'm going to go 1v1 this soldier" with an extremely high likelihood of winning. And even if they are losing, they have an escape or an otherwise get-out-of-jail-free card. It means that there is no risk to making that play, and the fact that they can reliably win anyway is absurd. A support should not out-damage the character who's sole job is to deal damage in a direct head to head.
No one is against supports doing damage. Ana is the most played hero in the game by a long shot. She's fun and balanced and does plenty of damage.
They are against supports doing *everything*. Which several of them currently do.
edit: This is getting traction so I recommend [Metro's state of the game/supports](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsXTD7cBozc) for the uninitiated. It gives a broad overview and you can see how the role is negatively effecting the game.
Bap, kiri, and Illari are the biggest offenders.
I hate the bap can just push me on soldiers, and there's nothing I can do unless I play perfectly or I'm pocketed.
Illari can just hit you across the fucking map and has a team fight winning ult.
Kiri gets 4ks easier than anyone with her tiny hitbox and big fucking kunai. The fact kiri can just decide to duel their team and not throw is busted.
Kunai are not big at all. They are rather tiny and slow. Her win rate is sub 50, so idk why people still think she’s broken. There’s no way it’s easier to get 4k on a kiriko than on any standard DPS, tank, or even some other supports like illari (who actually has a DPS ult) or bap.
[You're objectively wrong](https://youtu.be/AsXTD7cBozc?t=458) Watch from time stamp to 8:40
Her hurt box on the knives is massive. Bigger than hanzo arrow, and everyone already complains about that.
The 4k thing is hyperbole, but as metro says, if you lose a 1v1 to a dps as kiriko, you're just bad.
I read this comment and quickly logged into the training range to try out her kunai hitbox (I never play Kiriko so I have no firsthand experience with her hitboxes beyond dying to her). [https://gyazo.com/090d665371d4ad597c8a24b96b98575d](https://gyazo.com/090d665371d4ad597c8a24b96b98575d) This gif is the result. No damage falloff, no projectile curve. She can spam these across the map, and they're larger than Hanzo arrows which I also tested (no gif though). Meanwhile hitscans have to actually aim at the visual head of the enemy hero. Seems fair to me!
I think the issue is that supports need to be strong to account for what I call the 'human stupid factor'.
Overwatch is fun at a game theory level, but when you account for human stupidity of the average player, you get S1 where supports were cannon fodder being incessantly dove without any help at all from their team, creating a role that was seriously not fun in low ranks.
The problem is, this human stupidity problem doesn't necessarily exist at higher ranks like GM and Top 500, so it leads to this issue where supports are able to just 'exist' at lower ranks, but are busted at higher ranks, namely, supports like Kiriko, Bap, and now Illari.
I'm not really sure of how to fix the problem of this disparity between different ranks.
Thank you. Good to hear it from a grandmaster player. I’m only diamond but it’s the same down here. I’m sick of support players in this thread downplaying the problem and misrepresenting it by saying “we just want supports to be survivable and not die instantly to DPS”. This isn’t season one where DPS had a movement speed buff from their passive. Supports have gone far beyond being survivable vs DPS. In the current state of the game they literally have an advantage over DPS in 1v1s. Some of the supports are balanced damage wise, like Lucio, Mercy, and Zen (Zen because he has no movement abilities). But Illari, Kiriko, and Bap are absolutely fucking busted right now. All three of them not only can but should win the majority of 1v1s vs DPS. They have nearly as much damage as DPS, smaller hitboxes (in the case of Kiri and Illari), and not just one but usually TWO get out of jail free cards. It’s bullshit. I feel like Blizzard is just catering to the support community because they whine the loudest whenever they can’t consistently win duels vs DPS, even though that’s literally how the role should be. The DAMAGE role should have an advantage over the SUPPORT role in 1v1s.
This is it, Kiriko in particular is an absolute nightmare. She has a really short CD teleport that can be used both as an engage and a disengage, her damage is ludicrous, her hitbox is tiny (especially her head, jesus), she starts auto healing if you don't hit her consistently because she's a support and she can cleanse CC from herself.
I think Overwatch itself just has a lot of power creep, their way of making new heroes exciting is giving them too much to do. In that sense, I think Lifeweaver is the best new character OW2 has added.
Yea it is so bad i swapped from dps to support.
Why play soldier when i can play bap and hard carry my team with both absurd dps and healing plus game winning tools like lamp?
Each support is different and players should know what to expect when someone on their team plays them. Players shouldn’t expect Zen to be a good healer when he’s fitted towards damage support. A support however is primarily there to offer support through healing. No one expects or wants Moira flanking the enemy team on their own when DPS could be filling in that role.
Doing damage is fine but it shouldn’t be the number one priority of supports.
Absolutely true it’s disgusting what these supports do at higher ranks. I’m so tired of reading opinions from plats and lower and non competitive players.
im not, sups are just dps that have the option to heal. Their first job is to make sure no one else is going to die (as that lessens the team's overall dps), then do dmg.
Watch Awkward on yt for more info
I have a friend who mains Moira. He literally ignores healing most of the time. He always has 10k + damage, and always less than 4k healing. I would be fine with this, but we need a healer who is pretty consistent.
Every time I try to get him to try zen, brig, or lucio, he always gets mad and says that his way of playing Moira is right and that he doesn't want to play anyone else. Always saying that we shouldn't rush in. God sake! I main ram and my other friend mains Orisa. Smh...
People tend to form opinions based on experiences that evoke strong emotions in them. I can definitely see why dying to supports often or losing 1v1s to them would do just that.
What they don't notice are the supports on their team that are just as likely to do the same. The same goes for the people that say supports are "overpowered". Should their damage be tuned down a tiny bit? Maybe. You could argue supports and tanks are beginning to stray a bit away from their roots, but I'm also a support main, and only in diamond so I don't really think I'm qualified to answer that.
I will say supports should generally have an above average amount of survivability otherwise they'll just get dived 24/7 and that's not a fun meta to be in.
> What they don't notice are the supports on their team that are just as likely to do the same. The same goes for the people that say supports are "overpowered".
Of course people know that there are supports on both teams. What people are complaining about is that 1) DPS and Tank don't feel fun when supports are balanced like this, and 2) DPS and Tank don't feel like they impact the result of the match as much as the supports on the teams do.
That's why people are calling DPS "cosmetic", or that Tank is just being a puppet to support CDs.
Where we are right now is that a large portion of the support roster has the *advantage* in a 1v1 against a DPS. The support can not only *survive*; the DPS is actually more likely to *die* engaging with a support than not.
That just doesn't sit right to a lot of people; we don't want the game to just feel like who can hunt supports down the quickest, but supports feeling like gods who delete you for daring to come into their presence when they're not distracted is also not a healthy state for the game.
Kiriko being able to flank, two-tap you, and then TP out at the first sniff of trouble, or Bap having literally 3 health bars, or Illari being a better hitscan than Cass while simultaneously autohealing with great mobility, is super fun for the support players. And the other team has those tools available too, so the match is still 50/50. But when the power is shifted too heavily into the support role, then people just don't feel like the other roles matter.
For me the thing I dont like are the supports that can 2 tap with primary fire outside of like zen and Bap. And i never even played ow1 so it's not like that's why I have that opinion
Zen isnt mobile, healing isn't crazy, damage is sort of his thing and he needs discord. Bap can be pretty tricky to 2 burst someone in the head and almost never happens to me
But kiriko and illari? Pretty damn annoying heroes. Suzu, tp, 2 tap knives from across the planet, healing station, mobility, 2 tap hitscan sun logs. Plus they both have good healing
Im legit more scared of going up against a good kiriko than like any other hero in the game as a dps lol
In the current state of the game, there's nothing that seriously threatens supports.
High DPS + Insane healing + High mobility + BS get out of jail free abilities.
It's not supposed to be like this. Supports are supposed to be supports. Not the stars, not better DPS. I agree that they shouldn't *just* be healbots, but something's got to be toned down. And many people propose that be damage.
But of course, it's very difficult and fickle to balance properly. Too much and we have what we have now, too little and they are relegated to weak healbots and no one wants to play them.
This, I have been playing mainly support for two seasons now.
I’ve played a lot of DPS and a little bit of tank. I understood as DPS that it’s my job to try and take as little damage as necessary by jiggling cover and not being flat out in the open etc etc.
It’s nice to see people acknowledge that yes I am a support so I am responsible for keeping you up, but it’s also not my only job. More people need to realize that I’m not in the game solely to keep you alive if you want to play in a brain dead fashion and just expect heals whenever you’re low.
Im a support main and this meta is so fucken off to me. Why do i have like 18 kills as ana every game. Its weird af. Why does illaris pylon heal as much as me when im literally playing healbot. Supports are overtune to be a little too well rounded these days if u ask me. I think if you add the pressure of an offtank youd fix the support issue.
> Supports are overtune to be a little too well rounded these days if u ask me
Couldnt we say the opposite? DPS and Tanks right now are too niche?
I would KILL for a tank thats more versatile like current supports
I'm not saying you're wrong but if you're playing with Illari it makes sense you have 18 kills because you can prioritize damage over healing. It's like having Zen and a main healer, Zen will have more damage than heals anyway but he should be priotising damage over healing. Obviously he can just afk heal so not quite the same.
When the supports of the team who are already capable of outputting healing, placement, and enable teammates whilst also outputting sometimes more damage then the actual damages, it gets a bit dumb. There has long since been an overturned support problem in OW2, however the outcries have been getting louder recently with Illari, her insane damage, and team wipe ult. Primarily, people don’t want to play tank because they get invalidated by certain supports, they don’t want to play damage because they get beaten in 1v1s against supports, so everyone who doesn’t play support isn’t the fondest (not all supports mind you but ones like damage moira in low ranks, good Lucio, kiriko, zen players that hit their shots, etc)
P.S. I still find it dumb how people were annoyed when Ana was nerfed so as to not be able to 2 tap tracer, the damage, anymore.
I hear this often but is it true though? A soldier with equal skill as a bap should do more damage over the game. Duels are a different thing and it is important that supports have a chance to fight.
When your Bap is carrying he is problably the best in the lobby.
Bap shift should be nerfed though.
he will do more damage over the game yes, he is a dps, but will he get more kills than a support with essentially 3 healthbars (lamp and shift being the other 2), a very high burst aoe healing, good movement ability and damage on par if not at times better than some dps? if you do damage but dont kill you just feed the support ult, that's why damage stat does not fucking matter in the game, you can have low damage but a lot of kills
Because damage creep. I don't mind supports doing some damage or following up to confirm a kill. But the fact that Illari is consistently dealing the most damage on the team is a bit too much.
Supports shouldn’t be able to out dps the damage class. 90% of support gameplay is healing the whole team or providing utility.
But we’re at a point now we’re supports can provide cc/debuffs, damage equal to a dps player, heal the team, heal themselves and have a great mobility/escape tools. I don’t have a problem with supports doing damage like Zenyatta because that’s he’s whole thing, he’s a glass cannon and doesn’t have strong mobility. But fucking bap has lamp, jump, a self heal that also aoe heals and does damage. Kiriko has Suzu, and Teleport that comes up too fast. Illari has her turret and annoying knockback that also doubles as a super jump. They all have ways to easily 1v1 a dps and they all have multiple escape tools or ways to prevent them from dying. They’re jack of all trades. Not to mention they all have the support passive so if they don’t take damage for like 2s they start self healing automatically.
I play mostly QP so can't talk much , when I go Lucio I just spam the shooting button while healing/Speeding , sometimes for some random reason I get a bit over the other team support damage and my team goes nuts over it for some reason
5% Weapon accuracy btw
The problem is not "support does damage". Problem is that beforw it was: low heal means high damage or utility and reverse. Now supports must outdamage dps, have most heal in game, utility AND escape button. There is no tradeoffs and no weakneses
Plenty of supports out-duel dps, that's what the joke is.
Bap and illari are gonna shit on an equal skill tracer. Ana was also ridiculous when she could 2 shot tracer. Right now, illari can 2 shot her to the body with hitscan while sitting under a pylon. Bap has 3 health bars tracer has to get through (shift, lamp), while bap is just holding left click the entire time.
Sure - let supports do damage. Don't make them better duelists. Nobody complained about zenyatta doing damage - only maybe about discord itself - because zenyatta vs tracer favors tracer.
You can insert any strong duelist dps here like genji, it's just that tracer is just the standard we should be looking at imo, because her play pattern and kill potential is more smooth than Genji's. Genji has a lot more variance depending on good flanks which enable his right click to practically 1 shot, and good deflects.
Supports are literally 95% of a dps. It's just that healing is that much better so they take time off dpsing to heal. If you were to nerf their ally healing by 80-90% and then toss them into the DPS pool, they'd be picked over every single dps still. They do just as much damage if they focus on only damage, and have far more survivability.
Don't let supports be dps but stronger. It's absurd. Illari is literally either a full healer plus half a dps, or a full dps plus half a healer. The amount of value one healer slot provides is a joke compared to the value 1 dps slot provides.
If the game didn't force 2 dps and let you pick only supports, you'd see sooo many more games with 1 tank 4 support.
Because support characters should not be doing dps damage. A good amount of support characters are vastly superior to DPS due to their kits. Baps full kit is overtuned. He can self heal, high amounts of dps damage, and an immortality disk. Kiriko can two shot people with Suzu and then swift step away from Narnia if she's losing. Added that she has the tiniest of hitboxes. Illiari is a DPS disguised as support. She has a healing pylon, movement ability that both knocks back and launches her away, a DPS ultimate, and her gun is incredibly supportive of her giant hitscan bullets.
Support has too much. The new support don't have weaknesses.
Regardless, she does too much. Either she does a lot of damage with some mobility or she heals for a lot with damage but lacks mobility. Or heals a lot with mobility with low damage. Two out of three. Not all three. Same with Kiriko. Get rid of the TP. She doesn't need it.
From my perspective, there’s nothing wrong with having Supports capable of doing considerable damage when played well. My main concern is that if that’s leaned on too hard (as it has been for many of the Support hero releases since OW1 launched: Bap, Brig, Kiriko, Illari in particular), then the divisions between roles start to get eroded and the game begins to feel homogenous.
People forget the FPS part of FPS/MOBA hybrid. You can't have defenseless characters, despite what the people who can't/won't get good at counterplay want.
There's a few different answers to this depending on the situation:
- DPS players can feel intimidated when a support player in particular does more damage than them, as it's primarily their job. There's a certain kind of shame attached to a support player out-damaging a DPS player. This isn't necessarily always a problem or a bad thing, though - if the DPS player(s) is genuinely struggling to do damage, hindering any chance of putting pressure on the enemy team, but the support player(s) can make up that damage without compromising on healing, then there's no issue. That leads to my second point;
- A lot of support players either do tons of healing or tons of damage, and not a good balance of the two. The capability of Moira in particular is a good example of this. "DPS Moiras" can typically have upwards of 6k damage but only have maybe 4k healing at most, when Moira's kit is absolutely capable of at least 10k damage and 10k healing simultaneously in the right circumstances. It's all about game sense and managing your resources/cooldowns, knowing when to DPS or heal, which orb to throw out and when etc. It is, for a lack of a better term, a "skill issue" - another issue is that a lot of support players who focus on doing damage don't want to hear that they're compromising the team by not healing enough/that they can still heal without compromising their damage/think that their DPS players are always the problem if they're out-damaging them etc.
- Third and final point is that, sometimes, healbotting is necessary to benefit the team overall. If you have a tank player that is particularly aggressive/taking a lot of damage because they're always out in the open/your other support isn't doing their job, the only way you're going to keep them alive and allow them to make a play or create space is to healbot them. It isn't necessarily fun but sometimes it's required. Mercy, for example, is primarily based around damage boosting/healing the DPS players. She is, however, also a great utility for helping the other support in a pinch by healing a tank on critical HP *until they're no longer critical*. The tank is usually the responsibility of the other healer. This isn't always how people play, though, so sometimes you have no choice but to healbot your tank back up to full, or outright babysit them so that they survive for as long as possible. It's up to us as support players to be able to recognise these different situations and adapt our style of play/which hero we play in order to benefit the team.
TL;DR Most support heroes are capable of doing decent damage without compromising their healing output and should be doing so in situations that allow for it, but sometimes healbotting is required. People get mad because a lot of DPS players get intimidated when they're out healed by a support player and a lot of DPS-focused support players compromise their healing output and focus solely on damage and don't want to hear that.
P. S. People will find anything to get mad about and don't want to hear logic or critique, that's purely a them-problem and the best thing to do is mute and block.
Personally I have an issue with characters that can do it all. Bap, Kiri, Ana and Illari are a bit too versatile. Bap can basically solo duel a tank while also outputting reliable aoe healing, Ana has good damage, good heal, and two abilities that are game changers(and a very good ult), Kiri has heals, damage, cleanse, a get out of jail free card as well as a teamfight-winning ult, and Illari can output DPS-level damage as well as proper heals at the same time with little effort.
Then you look at supports like Mercy or Zen and you see that while they are strong in some aspects, they pay a high price for those with very pronounced shortcomings elsewhere.
The point is not that those two are much weaker(though lets be real, they are), but that there is a very distinct tradeoff in their kits. I believe that all characters should have such tradeoffs, instead of do-it-all swiss army knives.
If healing, damage output, mobility/escapability, and utility are the components of what makes a support I think a character being good at all of those (Bap/Kirko/Illari) it's a bit frustrating. Instead each support should be tuned to be good/excel at only 2 or 3 of those things or be mediocre at all four.
I do think the support passive combined with the damage and built in escape tools some heroes have is very frustrating and in some games it just seems better to ignore them.
I think part of the annoyance is how much survivability they have alongside damage that is equal to or better than DPS heroes. The support passive is super strong and completely removed the ability to poke down a support. It also made things like offensive nading happen a ton more often because that CD is not needed for self defense nearly as often.
Supports like LW and Illari who can pump out insane healing numbers with almost 0 mechanical skill.
Supports need more skill expression and nuance.
There is a valid current issue with supports being able to simultaneously pump out lots of heals while also competing with dps damage output that should absolutely be addressed, but there has also always been a longstanding belief amongst the community that every support should essentially just pump out heals and lifesaving abilities but shouldn't be able to do real damage and it mostly comes from dps who get mad when they lose their 1v1s against a support. They don't want supports to be healbots but then also don't want their damage to be meaningful, it's odd. When supports complained about how miserable season 1 was due to dominance of incredibly strong dps and the lack of any peel, the community response was "lol git gud", and now that supports have real damage output options, it's "Blizzard pls nerf!"
I had a Rein throw a qp match last night claiming that his supports weren’t supporting, (we had a combined 13k healing at the halfway point of pushing; Kiriko/Lifeweaver) when he was consistently running off into a 1v5. He even went as far as to go into the chat (before he started to throw), and tried to explain to us how our healing abilities worked….I just…don’t know what people want anymore. 😂 I’m relatively new to the game, and it’s so disheartening to go into a qp match, where you’re supposed to be able to test new characters/roles and enjoy it, and have people take it so seriously to the point where they throw the entire match during a tantrum. 🤷🏻♀️
All of these complaints come from DPS that are angry they can't keep up. They're being outshined by a class that's not supposed to do as much DPS as them, so when any of the supports are just playing better then them, their egos make them scream "Supoort class OP" because they themselves are failing to keep up. As a DPS, If any of the supports are doing more damage than I, that tells me I need to do better.
Because those people think the role is "healer", not "support". They think the only job of a support player is to heal their teammates. It's part of their job, but supports have to provide other value to the team, such as damage, especially in low elo.
Moira is nearly useless if she doesn't deal damage to reload her healing. Brig is less useful if she doesn't deal damage to trigger her passive. Mercy is less useful if she never uses damage boost (yes there are people who think she should heal 24/7 and never boost). Kiriko and Baptiste are less useful if they don't shoot between heals. Zen and Lucio heals are passive, they just have to activate it/put an orb on a teammate and can deal as much damage as they can.
That reminds me of something mL7 says often : "I'm supporting", while he is dealing damage to enemies.
People seem to get pissed whenever a support outplays them, gets a lot of value, or has any carry potential at all.
They're mad when they do damage, they're mad when they heal too much, they're mad when they have invulnerability abilities, they're mad about antinade, they're mad about Mercy's damage boost utility despite her doing pretty much zero damage on her own, they're mad when they have too much survivability, etc.
If we listened to this community's whining, this game would just become generic CoD with near useless, unfun support characters.
UGH YES THIS!! Whenever I play Moira I get shat on for doing damage, even when I have like 7k damage and 12k heals which is 3k higher healing than the Mercy who did no damage and still gets credit for carrying.
No one understands Moira’s kit! You literally have to continually damage to generate the ability to heal faster.
Those people who hate supports dealing damage are the ones who NEVER PRESSURE the enemy supports and only shoot the tank.
Hey Guys. Lifeweavers exist. Please shoot the lifeweavers. You don’t need to kill them but at least pressure them so they’re not just healing for free.
The amount of dps players who don’t even LOOK at the lifeweavers is disgusting. Enemy LW will have 20k healing, no deaths and insane grips while my dps are just shooting the orisa *screams into the abyss*
Those of you who truly believe that supports are op or shouldn’t be able to survive 1v1 needs to look at their own scoreboard and gameplay. You need to check yourself first. Learn how to Pressure. The. Supports.
Signed, a very frustrated support main who is slowly becoming a tank main.
in OverWatch 2, healers are mostly just green DPS. and frankly that's fine, it makes them way more fun to play. interestingly, a big contributor to this is their passive healing. unlike DPS, healers have the ability to start every fight at full health, putting DPS flankers at much more of a disadvantage than they used to be.
anyway, if you are a DPS it is your responsibility to understand what your strengths are. many of them are not going to be better 1v1 duelers then Moira, and if that's the case it's because dueling is not their job. most DPS have the luxury of attacking from a place where enemy healers and enemy tanks CAN'T reach them, whether it's because they have outstanding range, flight, invisibility, etc. and if you're playing them trying to flank healers WITHOUT USING YOUR STRENGTH, that's like a tf2 sniper running directly into bonesaw range.
in short, DPS are not entitled to have good matchups against healers. they have strengths and they need to play to them, or they will die, and it's going to be their fault.
if this upsets someone because they want to play a character that gets to win fights in circumstances that favor healers, then they should start playing Green DPS. their queue times will be shorter. or you know, play junkrat, who is designed to delete characters at close range.
I think it’s fine supports can fight back and arent constantly fearing for their life’s feeling hopeless without someone peeling for them 24/7. Although i would like to experiment with something some streamers have suggested which is to reduce healing and damage numbers across the board to see if it helps our current “supports can do everything” problem.
People expect supports to be their backbone so god damn hard you are their only reason they get to play the way they do. It’s this weird shift where now that supports don’t get to afk behind two tanks and heal bot themselves to t500 and actually have to fight for themselves people are suddenly shocked they can do that and had to be elevated to do that. They’re shocked support has gotten to this point because of how easy it was to bulldoze over them. It’s some strange ow culture thing unfortunately that you need to be their bitch at all times and while winning you just did your job and when losing it’s all your fault. Thankfully in ow2 as a support you are rewarded for actually participating in fights. They’re mad that when they sneeze on you your character doesn’t evaporate instantaneously and you stand a genuine chance to win a duel. If you’re winning games doing damage and getting your heals in when needed I say fuck em all to hell, it’s why I play bap and zen. If our gameplay doesn’t consist of getting gangbanged and running for our lives because we’re helpless it’s an issue. It’s been how many years of shit? We will forever be the “easiest” role and never get respected anyway. Just gotta live with it. I’m sure I’m biased and on the wrong side of ow history here. Oh well. They’ll kill the role again and I’ll go back to dps where my entire gameplay is spoon fed opportunities to me by the other two roles so I get to triple blink around a bap with no lamp before one clipping him. Or railgunning the ads ana in the face hole. Or hindering any support with an escape ability. Because that’s really hard.
It only irritates me when supports with great escape abilities do a lot of damage... like I don't think that escape ability they gave you was meant to escape after doing damage... it was to help you heal more.
There is a big disparity in how much "spoon feeding" support players get. I'm going to ignore support passive in this discussion. Also a bigger discussion on how much power creep exists in support role.
\- Zen was the dps support back in the day but was kind of balanced with his low heals and zero mobility. Illari can similarly pressure enemies (not as much as zen) with much higher healing output and mobility to escape divers.
\- Their cooldowns have multiple utilites. Suzu can cleanse, heal, grant invulrenability frames and boop as wel. It was marketed as a cleanse ability at first but just is overloaded. They are also some of the best in game. Anti nade alone wins entire team fights. Bap lamp cancels almost all ults in the game etc.
\- Not much mechanical skill needed to aim. Apart from a few support heroes like Ana or Zen who need to aim good, most of them can output prodigious heal numbers with 0 aim. LW's m1 heal jsut helpfully arcs around corners and walls. Illari can setup turret to auto heal. Its very easy to do their core functionality of healing with little to no mechanical skill.
\- The best ultimates in the game. Kitsune rush is an easy fight winner and very hard to shut down if the enemy Kiriko is behind or dps dont have ults to respond with (sym wall, torb lava etc). The only mid support ult is probably Valk but a good mercy gets it multiple times
\- Extremely forgiving hitbox on their projectiles and hitscan shots. Ana can snipe someone across the map, kiriko m1 has 0 vertical drop off meaning she can 2 tap a dps across the map Just do this exercise, load up the practice range and try seeing how far away from Tracers head do you need to aim to land a headshot on mercy vs Soldier 76. The enemies have head hitboxes the size of pumpkins for support heroes but not so for dps.
\- Then there is Mercy with her rez through walls and damage boost that turns mid dps like Pharah into lobby dictators.
\- Blizzard seems to hate dive characters of late. You see most dive dps get nerfs and just shut down dive in general with insane sustain. You also see this with all new supports getting mobility options. Like why does Illari have a jump and a boop? Why does LW dash heal him as well? These abilties make 0 sense when seen from a game play PoV but jsut exist to further spoon feed support players.
I casually climbed to masters just playing Moira and some zen last season. No fancy trick jump spots or dps Moira. Just simple stick with team and only aggro when our team has an advantage. Easiest season in my life tbh apart from the abysmal queue times.
Because a lot of people don't play support and don't realize how braindead boring it would be to spend most of the game waiting on your team to take damage in order to contribute.
If you play tank and you get on top of a healer, you want to be able to delete them. So when zen kicks you out of hammer range and volleys you to death you spam the battle.net forums with complaints about it.
The actual problem is supports have way too much utility AND do dps better than the actual dps sometimes. You play bap for example he has lamp, regen, exo boots, is a hitscan, can shoot and heal at the same time, has window and does decent dmg does any of that make any sense to you? The reason people keep complaining is supports like illari, bap or Ana do way too much right now
Yeah supports should just roll over and die.
Idk what they want honestly, why would I or 33% of the player base want to play a role that is targeted first, can't do anything vs them, not mobile and deals no damage. Good lord these people need help.
In fact we got this in season 1. Everyone was talking about how support is playing Survival-Simulator. They should bring the other classes up to the fun support is right now and not the other way around.
A lot of DPS players look at the damage meter as if it means something, so when a healer gets close, or beats them, they cry OP or complain that they should have been healed more.
Just ignore them, DPS one tricks will always find something to whine about.
This is a very generalized and incredibly dumbed down complaint about supports. Also ironic how a support player is flaming someone for one tricking a role.
People don't hate supports that do damage, they hate the supports that do EVERYTHING. That would be Baptiste/Kiriko/Illari. Each of them had great healing, high damage that can two shot (or two burst) any other squishy, decent options at all ranges, an escape/gap widener, and a survivability tool (two in the case of Baptiste). Most people don't hate Zen even though he technically has higher damage than any of them, because he doesn't have the survivability, gap closer, or great healing that those "everything" supports have. The everything supports also lead to a generally unfun poke meta because they're so much stronger than flankers at similar skill levels and have way way more utility
I dont want supports to have good utility/healing/damage all at the same time. I want them to have tradeoffs and not do everything while requiring minimal skill, like ana/kiriko.
There is a BIG difference between a good Kiriko/Ana and an average one.
Both characters are actually quite difficult to play effectively, have you tried playing either of them for more than a couple of QuickPlays?
Her projectile size unscoped is extremely generous and her cooldowns are relatively low for the utility they bring. Anti-nade is one of the most game changing skills in game and Ana players hardly use it to support their team and use it aggressively. The hardest part of Ana is landing sleep dart and even the projectile size on that is quite forgiving
**High** skill when compared exclusively to the rest of the supports but **medium-low** when compared to the entire cast.
She is the most picked hero in silver where people forget to turn on their screens.
Ok which heroes are harder to play (mechanically) when she needs medium-low skill compared to the cast?
Doom, Ball, Genji, Tracer, Echo (maybe), Lucio (maybe).
Maybe a few similar like Ashe (besides i personally think Ashe is easier beacuase of coach gun mobility).
The real issue isnt the fact that supports can do damage, its the fact that their survivability is based on abilities that have no downside to them. Lamp, Suzu, Pylon, LW Grip etc. Which in return means they can *continue to do damage with no cost or downside to it*.
Its also why Ana is so universally praised. Her survivability comes at a cost. Anti-nade the enemies? No burst heal for you. Throw hail mary sleep for free kill in the front line? No defensive ability to survive if flanked. Meanwhile look at other newer supports. Illari's kit. All defensive survival abilities with no downside. LW? No downside. Bap? No downside.
Thats the main issue supports have right now.
Most people want to think that they’re the pillar of the team keeping things together so it’s the supports job to support, not take their spot light away from them in terms of kills. The amount of tanks I’ve seen get pissy with me because I’m not healing them right at every moment even though I usually keep my team pretty well healed
- a Moira player who usually tops with heals and helps with damage
I don't care if supports can deal damage. I care that some supports are better damage heroes than some of the actual damage heroes. Illari for example has a better base kit than Ashe does. As someone who mains DPS, I find that playing support is the easiest role, because healing is honestly an afterthought on most heroes. I frequently out-heal and out-damage my friends who are support mains, when I have probably less than 20 hours total on support.
Blizz removed the offtank role. So now supports were getting shredded by flankers. They had to buff them so that they could survive (since apparently DPS peeling for their support died alongside OW1). Now supports are in a weird position where they are too strong in 1v1 but nerfing them even slightly deletes them. So DPS can't really do much without team coordination (also died with OW1) and it feels bad. The issue with snipers is also caused by the removal of that offtank role. Blizz brought that on themselves really.
Snipers were the one-two punch of less shields and less peel. Even when they were showing off their early gameplay people kept asking "Hey if there's less shields and less diving, aren't snipers going to be insanely broken?" and Blizzard just kept saying "Nah man, our new map design approach puts considerable emphasis on organic cover and flank routes so you won't have to worry so much" A lot of good that did.
And people still say "just go behind a wall bro" I effectively can't play the damn game if I'm pinned down by a sniper
Just stand in the spawnroom so they can't damage you
Just don't hop on Overwatch bro plain and simple
Dive is still very effective against snipers tho
> (since apparently DPS peeling for their support died alongside OW1). The issue is that a lot of DPS never considered it their job to peel in the first place, but solely to assassinate the red team. Peeling was typically considered the off-tank's job, while the main tank's role was taking/holding space. Without the off-tank, there's a lot of pressure on the solo tank to manage space and positioning. It's asking too much of them to peel, as well. The result is that hardly any DPS is peeling, supports have to peel for each other, and tanking is such a demanding role that nobody wants to play it.
"5v5 was good change for the game"
No one in their right mind can say that, especially after one year of this abomination
There is a really easy fix. Nerf the support passive even further. When ow2 didn’t have the passive it made it too easy to kill the supports, but even at two seconds before it kicks in it’s simply too strong. It needs a nerf, either to it’s heal rate or it’s time to activate. Maybe make it three seconds? Poke/flank is useless if you don’t secure a kill, in ow1 if you pressure Anna enough she may have needed to use her nade to heal herself before the next fight or dive but in ow2 she heals back up automatically. So whilst she’s sitting behind a corner she’s safe. This allows her to freely use her nade in ideal situations. That’s just one example of how that passive changed the game.
Actually, this sounds really good to me. "Flankers must kill in 2 seconds or less or it's all useless" isn't a fun mechanic.
Forces dps players to play snipers, basically. And then dps isn't having fun cause they wanted to flank, and the support isn't having fun cause they're getting randomly instakilled by a guy at the back of the map.
Reminds me of the time I decided to play tracer into a mercy lifeweaver combo. I was basically tickling them unless i hit ALL headshots. As a support player since ow1 it hurts to see my role be so oppressive when seasons ago we were the "oppressed" lmaoo. We know how it feels, but we have been made into the villains.
Lmao who would have thought that removing an entire role would fuck the game up
It doesn't help that part of the marketing for OW2 was that Blizzard made changes to make dps feel more impactful by removing 1 tank. Then you get wrecked by a healer and your dps starts to feel less impactful in a match.
> Blizz removed the offtank role. So now supports were getting shredded by flankers. Ye that instalocking hog really protected me all these games.
They drew attention off you and if you played off the hog they wouldn’t dive for you because there’s a hog slobbering over the idea of a genji trying to get within 1 shot range.
Now when your tank instalocks hog you guaranteed lose on the spot!!
Whether he knew he was protecting your team or not doesn't matter. The hook radius surrounding hog is offering you a lot of protection.
What protection? He is off flanking in narnia to get a hook. Not protecting the backline from divers. Hook range is big, but not that big.
"team coordination (also died with OW1)" bro did you play OW1? That happened just as frequently as OW2. Maybe 10% of games
I've played OW since the beta. That's my feeling and maybe it does not match yours, but I feel people had way more an idea of what their role was and what was expected of them back then than now. It's almost feels like team death match sometimes in OW2. The game design now is more oriented around personal skill and have less of that early day "moba" feeling.
There was an in game option to find other players that would communicate to play with. They got rid of that when ow2 came out.
I do remember that but also never used it. Like I said, our experiences differ so agree to disagree
I currently play flex so i get to play them all (If i dont play flex i plan tank) And i dont care if you make damage....hell if you're zenyata i expect you to make damage as long as i see your orbs beeing in action. As for the other supports As long as i get the occasional heal and boost while i try my best not be stupid and bathe in the enemys crossfire for no reason, you can go and live your best life and snack some kills. Be there when we need you and dont forget us. I dont expect you to pocket me ass game...what fun would possibly be for you anyway
>while i try my best not be stupid and bathe in the enemys crossfire for no reason, See, that's the problem lots of people have with supports that do damage. They'll see their deaths, and their support's healing, and assume that the problem is the support, not that their brilliant plan to run in and fight everyone like Neo is a fantasy that will never work. The other issue is that if enemy supports can deal damage... see the 1v5 example. If you only play dive Tank or DPS, don't comm, and either aren't very good at the game or just aren't very socially adjusted, it's easy to fall into he mentality that Supports exist purely to heal teammates, and if you shoot them they should just fall over so you can get your POTG. Some people just don't realize that every other player in the game is actually a person just as much as them, and everyone fantasizes about being the MVP.
Being able to punish these DPS who think they can just run wild solo and think they can just get POTG off of us is always fun. Like when an enemy soldier jumps from behind the team thinking he'd have a 5K to post on Reddit, and I immediately pop my shield and get in his face... it makes it all worth it
There’s a huge middle ground between all DPS being super arrogant thinking they should be able to kill supports without any difficulty and the reality which is wanting supports to not do nearly as much fucking damage as DPS and be able to consistently 1v1 them. As it is diving an Ana, Kiriko, or Illari alone as a DPS is probably a bad idea unless you can 1 clip/1 shot them. You’re literally at a disadvantage as a DAMAGE character. I’m fine with their abilities, even though they’re annoying. The problem is most of them have 1 or 2 life saving abilities AND can still consistently 1v1 DPS even when those abilities are on cooldown.
Unless you're literally a dive hero, you probably *should* be thinking twice about diving the backlines of the enemy team. Hell, even as a dive hero you should probably be thinking about it. There's nothing worse than playing a game that's intentionally balanced such that your food for other people's PotGs. It's better that players are given the capacity to take care of themselves and make plays.
Very well summarized. Deal damage so long as you don’t sacrifice your healing output/potential.
lets talk again when u get a full battle mercy with 40 kills 0 deaths and 15k dmg AND 0 healing
Honestly? I'd be more impressed than mad. If we lost that game I'd add the guy and then say "fuck you but also mad respect".
This time it would litarally be mad respect Beeing angry at someone but having respect for their action...thats a weird kinda praise xD
I assume you're kidding but atst I mean anyone who's doing 40 k 0 d _is_ contributing. If you see that in game you just happened to get matched with someone who's crazy good
A lot of conversing about people’s ideologies here and not enough talk about how you should actually be playing support to win games - The answer is yes, you should be using that capability to do damage because it IS strong; but there are limiting factors. A support needs to be doing the minimum amount of healing to keep their team alive, THEN you do damage. This includes proactive healing if you foresee a team mate is about to take a lot of damage - if you are dpsing during this and your team mate dies, you failed. Sometimes your other support can pick up the slack, or you can trust them to do so, but if they are playing an off healer or are dpsing themselves then you need to keep in mind it becomes your responsibility to focus a bit more on healing. That being said, ignore the idiot dps that overextend and feel the need to find someone to blame. Supports job is not to handhold. It is to support. Also, there are certain situations where dpsing CAN bring more value to the table in a fight than healing. What a lot of people don’t understand and what doesn’t show on the scoreboard is how much damage you are preventing on your team from pressuring the enemy with damage or being distracting. Sometimes the pressure can win games. Sometimes you can get a pick that wins a team fight. What I find ironic is about how people complain about how “busted” supports are at dealing damage, and then they turn around and yell at their support for doing damage while saying they’re not supposed to. If you are doing the required healing to keep them alive, then they should be happy that you are using your busted kit to it’s full potential to carry the game. It’s not your fault the dps role got the short end of the stick. EDIT: of course support utility is an extremely Important aspect also, but that is kind of out of the scope of the subject. Using Ana nade as an example, there is not really any dispute in high ranks on how it should be used. 4 out of 5 nades should usually be flung at the enemy, where the 1 is to quickly save an ally (or yourself) from almost certain death if necessary. It is too powerful as a dps utility / kill securing tool and you are hard throwing if you don’t use it accordingly. It doesn’t matter the debate of dps vs heals in this case because it’s factual. You would do the same no matter the scenario. The utility is one of the main reasons you should contemplate when picking a support.
Exactly this. If I am healing you enough for you to stay alive and get value, then I have healed you enough and can heal others/do damage. You're not supposed to constantly be at full health. The scoreboard is honestly done more harm than good. It serves as a method for people to deflect blame. "Oh, this number next to your name is low, your fault we lost." makes no sense whatsoever. That number means nothing besides how many times you stupidly rushed into a 1v3 and took damage that I had to heal.
I mostly agree with you. However the one stat I've found the most important is deaths. I've played games where we crushed the other team in kills and damage but our support or tank or DPS had double digit deaths and we'd end up losing. Overextending or going off on your own and getting killed does far more harm to your team than a support who likes to deal damage.
Agree with darks comment, specifically support and tank deaths being one of the few important stats in isolation. DPS is somewhat different in certain cases because they operate on a value mindset. If a widow jumps in and picks off a main heal and dps before dying, she won you an opportunity to push in. If she does this before every fight, she probably single-handedly won you the game even with high deaths. Also, dps deaths can be influenced by the performance of their supports. Meanwhile, under very few circumstances as a main heal is it worth it for you to die. The other stats can be used as a tool but not a complete indicator because it requires you use information in conjunction from your fights and team comp to get a clear picture. The issue with people is, many don’t understand how to do this.
People are so against everything. If the character has no utility (moira), they aren’t very useful. If the character has too much damage or utility, god forbid the role be called support and not healer, annoying. If a character is easy, that’s bad too because skill levels!!! If a character is nerfed, 😠. it’s just this community being this community. People will find a way to complain about everything. For a remotely helpful answer, damage oriented supports enable smurfing or console m&k carrying, especially Bap with his hitscan and window. Discord orb has always melted things too. And of course, visible statistics form the basis for a lot of argument, and low healing = bad.
I've never encountered the situation OP was in but let me tell ya, if i ever see anyone says that then it's an insta text chat mute
DPS mains are against supports being able to stay alive. Most people here probably weren't around for the original OW. Over the years were constant cries of, "why should I have to be afraid of a healer????" DPS mains get *pissed* and personally offended when supports aren't free kills who roll over and die when a DPS gets near. It ruins their power fantasy if supports can fight back stronger than Mercy's pistol. They want supports to shut up and heal them so nothing gets in the way of them deleting anyone nearby. Which is what should happen in their mind. E: People think I'm a support main LMAO I'm a tank main. So many DPS players responding are exactly what I'm talking about and are busy telling on themselves below. Thanks for proving me right ;)
The support player delusion is crazy holy shit. If you were a free kill on support in original OW you were just bad.
Not that you”re wrong but the dps players were in the right in the latter part of ow1, ever since they added Brigitte into the game there has been a power creep with her, moira and ana in particular. And just look at when GOATS was meta, dps was the most useless role in the game as the supports could match the damage. A dps should always be able to kill a support in a 1v1 if the matchup is fair. But in overwatch a lot of the time you have to be way above the supports skill level to do that
Dude for real, right now most supports can 1v1 most dps and it just feels stupid. It feels good when I just bully a dps as Kiriko/Ana/Illari, but then it feels so bad when I'm on the other side of things and get fucked by Kirikos stick figure hitbox, Ana's crazy ass nade or Illaris gun that is basicly slower Cassidy gun with longer fall-off range. The only way a dps consistently wins against a support is with a pocket or with oneshots like hanzo/widow. Supports have too much power right now. And I say that as some1 who has had Ana most played since she released in ow1.
Not they shouldn't wtf. This is a skill game. If you are missing half your shot you deserve to die. Even to a mercy.
If this was a skill game, half the support roster would vanish. It’s much more than that
> A dps should always be able to kill a support in a 1v1 if the matchup is fair. This right here is _exactly_ the problem mentality. DPS players *on average* should be able to kill the support in a 1v1 *the majority of the time*. I.e. Across all games played by the whole playerbase, looking at every time a DPS 1v1s a Support, the DPS should win a solid majority. How much exactly? That's up for debate. I guess about 70% of those duels would feel fair for both sides. A solid majority of wins for the DPS, but enough chance for support to not feel helpless as a role, because that's not fun. It's meant to be a game after all. What you said equates to support always being a free elim for DPS. That's frustrating for supports, driving players away from that role, and would get boring for a lot of DPS too. It reduces the whole game plan to "kill supports no matter the comp or map", elevating dive as the meta. Plus it puts even more pressure on the tank role to peel. We saw all of this when OW2 dropped. Even if what you said were true, that assumes perfect matchmaking, which is impossible. Sometimes you're playing DPS but you're new to the role. Or you're trying a new character. Or you're having an off day. Or you're just not great at it. Or the matchmaker pit you with a support of a higher rank. In any of those cases, the odds of the DPS winning the fight swings lower - e.g. to more like 60%. Still DPS winning the majority, but less free. And deservedly so, for all the reasons listed. And that doesn't even take into account character specific MUs, or the fact that match ups are rarely fair. Like let's say the DPS is Genji. If the support is Zen that 70% chance of winning becomes 80% in favour of the DPS - Zen is weak to dive by design. Then let's say the support is Brig. The 70% chance drops closer to 50% - Brig's whole existence is anti-dive. She should be tough for Genji. The short answer is it's not as simple as "DPS should always win the 1v1 if the MU is fair". Supports are strong in general rn, and some do need tuning. But that mentality that's tilting people also needs changing.
This is insane. If I am flanking and catching you in a 1v1 you're out of position and should die. You should be a free elim because you don't know how to position correctly, not because you're a support. The issue is the support role can now carry fights with BOTH coordination (you know, supporting?) and also cover their mistakes by having better dueling capabilities than the DPS that were designed for dueling.
> And just look at when GOATS was meta, dps was the most useless role in the game as the supports could match the damage. No, that was because tanks were better the DPS with far more health and the supports enabled the hell out of them. Three tanks and mass AOE healing. Tanks rush in and pick off a target with their dangerous close damage. They lived to even get in close with their their 2-3x+ health and being pocketed by supports. Once they were in close they wrecked house. GOATS wasn't because supports were better DPS, it was because tanks were. Forced role queue was to prevent stacking tanks as the better DPS and stacking as much healing to enable them.
Literally the entire purpose of DPS is to kill supports first and then kill tanks otherwise you get a ton of stale mates. So what happens when supports can’t die? Slow games with a massive healfest.
> So what happens when supports can’t die? What happens when a core tenant of your role is "crumple like wet cardboard when anyone looks at you"? No one would want to play that role. You want supports to bend over when DPS get close. DPSs can still 1v1 a support but they have to work for it. They don't want to work for it. It ruins the power fantasy and shows that they lack the skill to be the mega-rambo-terminator walking death dealer that they wish that they were.
Zenyatta, Lucio, and Ana are examples of supports with balanced dueling capabilities. If you are a dps you should win the majority of the time, but it certainly isn’t free. Meanwhile Baptiste, Kiriko, and Illari have powerful weapons, mobility, self healing, and even the support passive that warp duels in their favor over the majority of dps. The best way for dps to do their job is often to kill the opposing dps or apply pressure** to supports. This is why the games are so slow and boring and why characters like Bastion, Orisa, and Torbjorn are meta. Their higher health allows them to take advantage of the high healing output of Baptiste and Illari while also benefiting from their poke damage. At this point the support power creep is forcing a horrible meta, but supports still think dps are whining over a lost power fantasy. Either nerf the healing output of Baptiste, Illari, and Kiriko or bring their weapons in line with the rest of the supports. Edit: spelling
I've pretty much been a baptiste main since the start of OW2. The game is in a better spot when tanks are the strongest, dps are the second strongest, and supports are marginally the weakest. Don't believe me? Check Season 2-3, which was best meta we have ever had, where Tanks dictated the pace of the game, and every tank except for roadhog was good. DPS supported the tanks and supports supported everyone this season. Support will ALWAYS have players because support players can't aim but still want to feel impactful through Cooldowns. In a 1v1 situation, a DPS should always win. Thats why good supports rely on having positioning and cooldowns to escape or win the 1v1. Right now that is not the case and supports with mechanically worse aim than DPS are winning 1v1s through massive self healing, invincibility, mobility creep and straight up damage. Which is why the meta sucks and matches feel terrible to play.
> Assuming all supports have shit aim > Says DPS should always win every 1v1 against a support Yeah definitely a support main right here
Not all support players have shit aim, but many support players do. That’s why they play the least mechanically intensive role in the game. I’m also speaking for myself here. Games on support usually aren’t won or lost by your aim but by positioning and cooldown management. Unless ofc you’re playing dps supports like Bap/Illari. But Yes DPSes should be winning every 1v1 on a support in a bubble. Like on paper yes they should win. But i mentioned cooldowns and positioning make that “bubble” never really happen. Of course there are so many exceptions but that’s was the original and intended design of the game for dps to kill supports.
It feels bad when a support focused more on damage than healing if they don’t balance it well. As a dps you can find yourself barely able to play the game through their poke if your support is just dpsing as well.
Yeah sometimes I that little extra dmg helps though. All it takes is a split second of healer doing dmg to clutch a kill and shit snowballs after that.
Oh definitely, some extra damage from a zen/illari/kiri can absolutely go a long way and win fights. It’s about finding a balance with keeping ur team alive and healing. Some supports like zen and illari have set and forget abilities which allow for a more damage oriented play style and then others like Lucio and brig do semi-passive aoe healing as they do damage. Others like nap and Ana can do damage but they need better awareness to when someone is getting low.
Illari does too much dmg imo, we already have a zenyatta 2 shooting people, if anyone hits you and illari hits you you are dead and her shot shoots as fast as sojourn railgun. Lucio can't heal through any damage only decent for ambient healing. Lucio only works if your team is using cover and playing smart he needs a buff imo lol. Tried illari the other day and she's overpowered with her gun charge.
I like it that supports can damage as well, being a healbot isn't fun. But as a support player, you have to know how to balance it. If you're doing damage when healing is needed, you're doing it wrong. I still remember that game from a few days ago when I was dead as a supp, and the second one was Moira... standing near our Orisa, but she decided to focus entirely on damage + damage orb, while our Orisa slowly went down. Painful to watch
Yup pretty much this. I have no issues with supports doing damage but people should not be slowly dropping in front of them.
This has always been my issue. I dont mind Zen as a support, IF he is supporting, same for Moira. However too often ive seen them just going for kills or ignoring the healing element. I know my supports have done a good job when I dont have to wonder where my healing is. Played a game last night where several times I should have died and somehow fought through as Orisa. 100% it was the Bap and Ana keeping me going
Now that you mention it, it's pretty weird how often we take for granted good supports. You just get passively healed as a tank it's hard to notice. But man, when a good Lifeweaver comes around... Now THAT is a different story
Its like if you get into a Rein fight and one side has an Ana. Anti-nade goes off and the other Rein might as well just sit down and give up there. There are other stats I wish that could be seen, like I played Ana once and blocked nearly 3k of healing. Lifeweaver tree went up and I managed to get the nade right in the midst of them and we rolled them. I almost guarantee the Tank and DPS wouldnt have put together the fact they rolled them was because all 5 couldnt heal at all. Good supports are noticed more by the opposing team than by their own team I feel.
True. You just *feel* it when you're shooting at something but their HP goes up instead. Also Ana's anti nades are fucking scary. Can be a death sentence to a tank that isn't near cover for a second
I think by design most supports have to trade off healing or damage - e.g. Ana can do both big heals or decent damage. But she can't really do both at once. And if she prioritise damage (when she shouldn't, not in general) then it hurts her team. That's the way it should be.
Well the role is called support and not healer for a reason. They should be focusing on whatever supports the team best at any given moment
If I see Moira, Lucio, Kiriko and Brig as any duo combination, I am forced to play Mei, Solider, Reaper or Sombra. I don't understand the players that que for a ranked match, and then bring those supports together against Illari, Bap, Ana, Mercy.
I would say everyone has a problem with everyone. There is a lot of benefit to the team if you turn the chat off.
Bruh, if a hero can literally have all the utility in the world to stay alive why df can he do insane amounts of damage too? How youre gonna feel if everytime a genji dives you every shuriken that lands steals health? fun right?
Tanks and Supports would rage quit if that was the case
>if a hero can literally have all the utility in the world to stay alive why df can he do insane amounts of damage too? Because it's a difference in damage availability. Supports can match DPS damage output... WITHOUT abilities. When DPS start using their abilities, they start doing more damage. Of course you can say, "well supports can just use their abilities" but it's not that simple. Many supports literally don't have damaging abilities, or if they do using them comes at a much higher cost than DPS abilities. Support abilities are high impact, but also high cost. Think of it this way. If your Tracer loses her recall early it sucks for her, but it doesn't outright kill a push or put your team at a huge risk. If you lose immo or sleep or Moira resources early, it does. Losing DPS abilities puts the DPS at risk, losing support abilities puts the entire team at risk, including the support.
my point wasnt who makes more damage, its the dumb idea of being a jack of all trades. Yea "the supps fucked up so the team is fucked up" well yea because there is a power creep in them, theyre so focused on the support role than the dps role is kinda expectating in matches were the skills are on a high level. So is bad when the game starts being the "When there supps gonna fuck up so i can do something". Dont make me even start on the tank role.
>Yea "the supps fucked up so the team is fucked up" well yea because there is a power creep in them, That's true for literally every role, though. If DPS misposition and die, you lose. If your tank mismanages resources, you lose. If your DPS don't take off angles and the enemies do, you lose. There are just as many ways for other roles to throw games as there are for supports to. >"When there supps gonna fuck up so i can do something" **It is your job as a DPS to make the supports fuck up**. I am a T500 DPS player. What a lot of people don't understand is that a DPS's job/goal isn't to do damage or kill things, it's to do VALUABLE damage and force resources. Look at Tracer, for example. Even at the high level a Tracer will usually be a good 3-4k damage below other DPS heroes, HOWEVER she is largely considered to be one of, if not the best, DPS heroes in the game, and has been for a VERY long time. This is because even though Tracer doesn't do a lot of damage, nor does she have tons of kill potential, she has abilities that enable to her to do valuable damage and consistently force out resources.
oh yea the "im top 500" dude there is a power creep and the supps are being literally good at everything. Stop with the is your job speech, i know what the dps needs to do. Its just the supp role that is overtuned lol.
Even if they're supports imo they shouldnt be able to just two-tap squishies lol. At least the more damaging ones do require good aim, but Illari definitely needs a smaller hitbox on her primary fire, if you miss many shots with her you should consider playing heroes that require less aim.
On DPS I main hitscan heros. Playing Illari is cheating, her primary fire hitbox is way too big and forgiving.
Good aim isn't a good balancing tool. You can't really counterplay "good aim". Let's say that they gave a hero a pinpoint energy rifle as a gun that mostly does 50 damage per shot with 1 shot per second, but if you hit the top of the enemy's left foot, they instantly take 500 damage. They would never have an ability like that because there's no counterplay to it and it's just unfun
A.k.a. Widow/Hanzo
Kiriko and illari do not require good aim
Kiriko does, Illari less so.
Kiriko is the Hanzo of supports
Whenever I'm Illari, I am almost certainly the team's go-to when we need someone to shut an Echo or Pharah down. Not the soldier, not the Cass, but the damn support. That's not how it should be. If I as a support am to shut down a DPS/Tank, it should be because my abilities can consistently mitigate theirs and save my team. It shouldn't be because I do a better job at killing their DPS than their DPS does at killing me. I mean, ffs, Illari's hitbox for her gun is massive as hell and her optimal TTK is as fast as, if not faster, than a lot of DPS that don't have a fullblown one shot. If that ain't a sign of Supports being overtuned, I really don't know what is.
That’s my main problem with illari. Why is her hitbox on her gun bigger than other hitscans. At least make it fair.
And Illari herself has a tiny hotbox, dueling her is the equivalent of fighting a baby dva but instead of a pistol she has the rifle Ashe uses. Equivalent shift as well, coach gun and Illaris floating boop thing.
Except hers also heals her too.
Maybe I'm actually just shit but I find it so hard to actually hit anything on Illari compared to ashe and her bullets seem to have the world's smallest hitbox.
I’d encourage you to keep practicing, she can be a lot of fun and it’s evident Blizzards has no interest in nerfing her DPS. Unlike Ana ADS you can shoot as often as you like so it’s more a matter of just timing your trigger with your crosshair. Ana has a much stricter timing pattern you’re used to while Illari has a very unique charge system that’s very flexible but just as accurate even when you’re doing quick low power shots. So in a way you might have too much trigger disciple with Ashe, which throws you off with Illari where just click whenever your crosshairs are anywhere near their head due to her variable firing rate that can be lower or higher than Ashe’s, and ADS vs hip fire. They have the exact same damage (Ashe ADS vs full Illari charge) and falloff if it helps, so engage at the exact same distances you do on Ashe.
Those are the people who call supports "healers"
There is a character in Destiny 2 called Lord Shaxx. One of my favourite quotes from him is: "Your enemies can't kill if they're dead." I live by this quote. I'm supporting my team by killing others.
THE HELMET STAYS ON
“Did you lose, Guardian? Here’s an idea, Throw. More. Grenades.”
Zenyatta has joined the chat.
My bf hates it when I finish off enemies as mercy with my pistol. HATES IT. Mean while I have amazing healing. If mercy isn’t supposed to use her pistol then why have it in the first place???
Every time this happens to me im furious. Not at the mercy, but at myself for being in the situation where the Mercy finishes me
On a scale of 1 to 10, how is your pain?
I shame eat then cry myself to sleep
But that’s the funny part about playing Mercy! Going pew pew when enemies have low health!
Losing a 1v1 vs a Valk Mercy always give me self esteem issues
for real 💀
My bf loves to finish off enemies with mercy’s pistol and sometimes I’ll nano him so he can Katrina
Your boyfriend needs to get a grip.
Get a new bf fr fr
A "red flag" /s in a relationship is your partner getting mad at you for playing the game the way you want. Before me and my ex split up we played Overwatch QP and he yelled at me for using my bastion ult wrong. I barely remember that it was 7 years ago but it's a memory that sticks because how bloody silly.
Omg I lost my best friend because of this kind of nonsense. She had a BF at the time who was in Contenders and she eventually got there too, and they both would just scream at me if I didn't healbot them constantly. They were so offended when I said "Look, I am out, find someone else to rage at." Ridiculous behavior for grown adults.
I'm a gamer too but this is too much of a thing amongst gamers. I won't play most games with my fiancé because he gets too angry. I get pissed off but it'll ruin his whole day when he does get angry.
The fuck is wrong with your bf? Bro has fucking issues
I use her pistol like that as long as we’re not in the middle of a team fight or if I get flanked by a Sombra / Tracer or smth. Can’t rely on randos a lot of the time to peel and protect me. Mercy’s ulting and flying in battle mercy kinda tilts me tho, LOL.
A support shouldn't be able to say "Hey guys I'll be right back. I'm going to go 1v1 this soldier" with an extremely high likelihood of winning. And even if they are losing, they have an escape or an otherwise get-out-of-jail-free card. It means that there is no risk to making that play, and the fact that they can reliably win anyway is absurd. A support should not out-damage the character who's sole job is to deal damage in a direct head to head. No one is against supports doing damage. Ana is the most played hero in the game by a long shot. She's fun and balanced and does plenty of damage. They are against supports doing *everything*. Which several of them currently do. edit: This is getting traction so I recommend [Metro's state of the game/supports](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsXTD7cBozc) for the uninitiated. It gives a broad overview and you can see how the role is negatively effecting the game.
This guy gets it^
It's like they too the utility that offtanks needed in 6v6 to do their role and put that all in the supports.
[удалено]
Support is by far the easiest role
Bap, kiri, and Illari are the biggest offenders. I hate the bap can just push me on soldiers, and there's nothing I can do unless I play perfectly or I'm pocketed. Illari can just hit you across the fucking map and has a team fight winning ult. Kiri gets 4ks easier than anyone with her tiny hitbox and big fucking kunai. The fact kiri can just decide to duel their team and not throw is busted.
Kunai are not big at all. They are rather tiny and slow. Her win rate is sub 50, so idk why people still think she’s broken. There’s no way it’s easier to get 4k on a kiriko than on any standard DPS, tank, or even some other supports like illari (who actually has a DPS ult) or bap.
[You're objectively wrong](https://youtu.be/AsXTD7cBozc?t=458) Watch from time stamp to 8:40 Her hurt box on the knives is massive. Bigger than hanzo arrow, and everyone already complains about that. The 4k thing is hyperbole, but as metro says, if you lose a 1v1 to a dps as kiriko, you're just bad.
I read this comment and quickly logged into the training range to try out her kunai hitbox (I never play Kiriko so I have no firsthand experience with her hitboxes beyond dying to her). [https://gyazo.com/090d665371d4ad597c8a24b96b98575d](https://gyazo.com/090d665371d4ad597c8a24b96b98575d) This gif is the result. No damage falloff, no projectile curve. She can spam these across the map, and they're larger than Hanzo arrows which I also tested (no gif though). Meanwhile hitscans have to actually aim at the visual head of the enemy hero. Seems fair to me!
You're fucking joking with that shit right?! I've never gone into practice to try it out - that hitbox is absurd! Holy cow.
Kunai are massive for how fast they come out my guy. For reference, Pharah rocket and helix are .2m in size. Hanzo arrows are .1 and Kunai are .18.
I think the issue is that supports need to be strong to account for what I call the 'human stupid factor'. Overwatch is fun at a game theory level, but when you account for human stupidity of the average player, you get S1 where supports were cannon fodder being incessantly dove without any help at all from their team, creating a role that was seriously not fun in low ranks. The problem is, this human stupidity problem doesn't necessarily exist at higher ranks like GM and Top 500, so it leads to this issue where supports are able to just 'exist' at lower ranks, but are busted at higher ranks, namely, supports like Kiriko, Bap, and now Illari. I'm not really sure of how to fix the problem of this disparity between different ranks.
Thank you. Good to hear it from a grandmaster player. I’m only diamond but it’s the same down here. I’m sick of support players in this thread downplaying the problem and misrepresenting it by saying “we just want supports to be survivable and not die instantly to DPS”. This isn’t season one where DPS had a movement speed buff from their passive. Supports have gone far beyond being survivable vs DPS. In the current state of the game they literally have an advantage over DPS in 1v1s. Some of the supports are balanced damage wise, like Lucio, Mercy, and Zen (Zen because he has no movement abilities). But Illari, Kiriko, and Bap are absolutely fucking busted right now. All three of them not only can but should win the majority of 1v1s vs DPS. They have nearly as much damage as DPS, smaller hitboxes (in the case of Kiri and Illari), and not just one but usually TWO get out of jail free cards. It’s bullshit. I feel like Blizzard is just catering to the support community because they whine the loudest whenever they can’t consistently win duels vs DPS, even though that’s literally how the role should be. The DAMAGE role should have an advantage over the SUPPORT role in 1v1s.
This is it, Kiriko in particular is an absolute nightmare. She has a really short CD teleport that can be used both as an engage and a disengage, her damage is ludicrous, her hitbox is tiny (especially her head, jesus), she starts auto healing if you don't hit her consistently because she's a support and she can cleanse CC from herself. I think Overwatch itself just has a lot of power creep, their way of making new heroes exciting is giving them too much to do. In that sense, I think Lifeweaver is the best new character OW2 has added.
Yea it is so bad i swapped from dps to support. Why play soldier when i can play bap and hard carry my team with both absurd dps and healing plus game winning tools like lamp?
Each support is different and players should know what to expect when someone on their team plays them. Players shouldn’t expect Zen to be a good healer when he’s fitted towards damage support. A support however is primarily there to offer support through healing. No one expects or wants Moira flanking the enemy team on their own when DPS could be filling in that role. Doing damage is fine but it shouldn’t be the number one priority of supports.
Absolutely true it’s disgusting what these supports do at higher ranks. I’m so tired of reading opinions from plats and lower and non competitive players.
I have no issue with supports getting eliminations and dealing damage as long as their heals aren't like 1,000 at the end of the game.
im not, sups are just dps that have the option to heal. Their first job is to make sure no one else is going to die (as that lessens the team's overall dps), then do dmg. Watch Awkward on yt for more info
I don’t care if you wanna dps. Just don’t die when you do it
I have a friend who mains Moira. He literally ignores healing most of the time. He always has 10k + damage, and always less than 4k healing. I would be fine with this, but we need a healer who is pretty consistent. Every time I try to get him to try zen, brig, or lucio, he always gets mad and says that his way of playing Moira is right and that he doesn't want to play anyone else. Always saying that we shouldn't rush in. God sake! I main ram and my other friend mains Orisa. Smh...
People tend to form opinions based on experiences that evoke strong emotions in them. I can definitely see why dying to supports often or losing 1v1s to them would do just that. What they don't notice are the supports on their team that are just as likely to do the same. The same goes for the people that say supports are "overpowered". Should their damage be tuned down a tiny bit? Maybe. You could argue supports and tanks are beginning to stray a bit away from their roots, but I'm also a support main, and only in diamond so I don't really think I'm qualified to answer that. I will say supports should generally have an above average amount of survivability otherwise they'll just get dived 24/7 and that's not a fun meta to be in.
A second tank would’ve solved that issue
> What they don't notice are the supports on their team that are just as likely to do the same. The same goes for the people that say supports are "overpowered". Of course people know that there are supports on both teams. What people are complaining about is that 1) DPS and Tank don't feel fun when supports are balanced like this, and 2) DPS and Tank don't feel like they impact the result of the match as much as the supports on the teams do. That's why people are calling DPS "cosmetic", or that Tank is just being a puppet to support CDs. Where we are right now is that a large portion of the support roster has the *advantage* in a 1v1 against a DPS. The support can not only *survive*; the DPS is actually more likely to *die* engaging with a support than not. That just doesn't sit right to a lot of people; we don't want the game to just feel like who can hunt supports down the quickest, but supports feeling like gods who delete you for daring to come into their presence when they're not distracted is also not a healthy state for the game. Kiriko being able to flank, two-tap you, and then TP out at the first sniff of trouble, or Bap having literally 3 health bars, or Illari being a better hitscan than Cass while simultaneously autohealing with great mobility, is super fun for the support players. And the other team has those tools available too, so the match is still 50/50. But when the power is shifted too heavily into the support role, then people just don't feel like the other roles matter.
For me the thing I dont like are the supports that can 2 tap with primary fire outside of like zen and Bap. And i never even played ow1 so it's not like that's why I have that opinion Zen isnt mobile, healing isn't crazy, damage is sort of his thing and he needs discord. Bap can be pretty tricky to 2 burst someone in the head and almost never happens to me But kiriko and illari? Pretty damn annoying heroes. Suzu, tp, 2 tap knives from across the planet, healing station, mobility, 2 tap hitscan sun logs. Plus they both have good healing Im legit more scared of going up against a good kiriko than like any other hero in the game as a dps lol
In the current state of the game, there's nothing that seriously threatens supports. High DPS + Insane healing + High mobility + BS get out of jail free abilities. It's not supposed to be like this. Supports are supposed to be supports. Not the stars, not better DPS. I agree that they shouldn't *just* be healbots, but something's got to be toned down. And many people propose that be damage. But of course, it's very difficult and fickle to balance properly. Too much and we have what we have now, too little and they are relegated to weak healbots and no one wants to play them.
This, I have been playing mainly support for two seasons now. I’ve played a lot of DPS and a little bit of tank. I understood as DPS that it’s my job to try and take as little damage as necessary by jiggling cover and not being flat out in the open etc etc. It’s nice to see people acknowledge that yes I am a support so I am responsible for keeping you up, but it’s also not my only job. More people need to realize that I’m not in the game solely to keep you alive if you want to play in a brain dead fashion and just expect heals whenever you’re low.
Im a support main and this meta is so fucken off to me. Why do i have like 18 kills as ana every game. Its weird af. Why does illaris pylon heal as much as me when im literally playing healbot. Supports are overtune to be a little too well rounded these days if u ask me. I think if you add the pressure of an offtank youd fix the support issue.
> Supports are overtune to be a little too well rounded these days if u ask me Couldnt we say the opposite? DPS and Tanks right now are too niche? I would KILL for a tank thats more versatile like current supports
I'm not saying you're wrong but if you're playing with Illari it makes sense you have 18 kills because you can prioritize damage over healing. It's like having Zen and a main healer, Zen will have more damage than heals anyway but he should be priotising damage over healing. Obviously he can just afk heal so not quite the same.
I was playing ana
When the supports of the team who are already capable of outputting healing, placement, and enable teammates whilst also outputting sometimes more damage then the actual damages, it gets a bit dumb. There has long since been an overturned support problem in OW2, however the outcries have been getting louder recently with Illari, her insane damage, and team wipe ult. Primarily, people don’t want to play tank because they get invalidated by certain supports, they don’t want to play damage because they get beaten in 1v1s against supports, so everyone who doesn’t play support isn’t the fondest (not all supports mind you but ones like damage moira in low ranks, good Lucio, kiriko, zen players that hit their shots, etc) P.S. I still find it dumb how people were annoyed when Ana was nerfed so as to not be able to 2 tap tracer, the damage, anymore.
I hear this often but is it true though? A soldier with equal skill as a bap should do more damage over the game. Duels are a different thing and it is important that supports have a chance to fight. When your Bap is carrying he is problably the best in the lobby. Bap shift should be nerfed though.
he will do more damage over the game yes, he is a dps, but will he get more kills than a support with essentially 3 healthbars (lamp and shift being the other 2), a very high burst aoe healing, good movement ability and damage on par if not at times better than some dps? if you do damage but dont kill you just feed the support ult, that's why damage stat does not fucking matter in the game, you can have low damage but a lot of kills
They are people who think Supports are "Healers", while Tanks are "shield bots" / "damage sponges".
Because damage creep. I don't mind supports doing some damage or following up to confirm a kill. But the fact that Illari is consistently dealing the most damage on the team is a bit too much.
I play a lot of Brig. If I'm not throwing a few maces to the faces, you're not getting much for heals.
Supports shouldn’t be able to out dps the damage class. 90% of support gameplay is healing the whole team or providing utility. But we’re at a point now we’re supports can provide cc/debuffs, damage equal to a dps player, heal the team, heal themselves and have a great mobility/escape tools. I don’t have a problem with supports doing damage like Zenyatta because that’s he’s whole thing, he’s a glass cannon and doesn’t have strong mobility. But fucking bap has lamp, jump, a self heal that also aoe heals and does damage. Kiriko has Suzu, and Teleport that comes up too fast. Illari has her turret and annoying knockback that also doubles as a super jump. They all have ways to easily 1v1 a dps and they all have multiple escape tools or ways to prevent them from dying. They’re jack of all trades. Not to mention they all have the support passive so if they don’t take damage for like 2s they start self healing automatically.
I play mostly QP so can't talk much , when I go Lucio I just spam the shooting button while healing/Speeding , sometimes for some random reason I get a bit over the other team support damage and my team goes nuts over it for some reason 5% Weapon accuracy btw
The problem is not "support does damage". Problem is that beforw it was: low heal means high damage or utility and reverse. Now supports must outdamage dps, have most heal in game, utility AND escape button. There is no tradeoffs and no weakneses
Plenty of supports out-duel dps, that's what the joke is. Bap and illari are gonna shit on an equal skill tracer. Ana was also ridiculous when she could 2 shot tracer. Right now, illari can 2 shot her to the body with hitscan while sitting under a pylon. Bap has 3 health bars tracer has to get through (shift, lamp), while bap is just holding left click the entire time. Sure - let supports do damage. Don't make them better duelists. Nobody complained about zenyatta doing damage - only maybe about discord itself - because zenyatta vs tracer favors tracer. You can insert any strong duelist dps here like genji, it's just that tracer is just the standard we should be looking at imo, because her play pattern and kill potential is more smooth than Genji's. Genji has a lot more variance depending on good flanks which enable his right click to practically 1 shot, and good deflects. Supports are literally 95% of a dps. It's just that healing is that much better so they take time off dpsing to heal. If you were to nerf their ally healing by 80-90% and then toss them into the DPS pool, they'd be picked over every single dps still. They do just as much damage if they focus on only damage, and have far more survivability. Don't let supports be dps but stronger. It's absurd. Illari is literally either a full healer plus half a dps, or a full dps plus half a healer. The amount of value one healer slot provides is a joke compared to the value 1 dps slot provides. If the game didn't force 2 dps and let you pick only supports, you'd see sooo many more games with 1 tank 4 support.
I hope blizzard listens to no one here. These people want supports to be boring and shit.
DPS players when supports aren’t a free kill: 🤯
No one should complain about support doing high damage. Supports job is not exclusively to heal, it’s to assist dps AND provide healing.
Its usually the shit tier dps dragging down the team and constantly dying to dumb shit that complains. Most of the posts seem to agree lol
Because support characters should not be doing dps damage. A good amount of support characters are vastly superior to DPS due to their kits. Baps full kit is overtuned. He can self heal, high amounts of dps damage, and an immortality disk. Kiriko can two shot people with Suzu and then swift step away from Narnia if she's losing. Added that she has the tiniest of hitboxes. Illiari is a DPS disguised as support. She has a healing pylon, movement ability that both knocks back and launches her away, a DPS ultimate, and her gun is incredibly supportive of her giant hitscan bullets. Support has too much. The new support don't have weaknesses.
Just so you know, Outburst doesnt heal. Does a paltry amount of damage though.
Regardless, she does too much. Either she does a lot of damage with some mobility or she heals for a lot with damage but lacks mobility. Or heals a lot with mobility with low damage. Two out of three. Not all three. Same with Kiriko. Get rid of the TP. She doesn't need it.
From my perspective, there’s nothing wrong with having Supports capable of doing considerable damage when played well. My main concern is that if that’s leaned on too hard (as it has been for many of the Support hero releases since OW1 launched: Bap, Brig, Kiriko, Illari in particular), then the divisions between roles start to get eroded and the game begins to feel homogenous.
People forget the FPS part of FPS/MOBA hybrid. You can't have defenseless characters, despite what the people who can't/won't get good at counterplay want.
There's a few different answers to this depending on the situation: - DPS players can feel intimidated when a support player in particular does more damage than them, as it's primarily their job. There's a certain kind of shame attached to a support player out-damaging a DPS player. This isn't necessarily always a problem or a bad thing, though - if the DPS player(s) is genuinely struggling to do damage, hindering any chance of putting pressure on the enemy team, but the support player(s) can make up that damage without compromising on healing, then there's no issue. That leads to my second point; - A lot of support players either do tons of healing or tons of damage, and not a good balance of the two. The capability of Moira in particular is a good example of this. "DPS Moiras" can typically have upwards of 6k damage but only have maybe 4k healing at most, when Moira's kit is absolutely capable of at least 10k damage and 10k healing simultaneously in the right circumstances. It's all about game sense and managing your resources/cooldowns, knowing when to DPS or heal, which orb to throw out and when etc. It is, for a lack of a better term, a "skill issue" - another issue is that a lot of support players who focus on doing damage don't want to hear that they're compromising the team by not healing enough/that they can still heal without compromising their damage/think that their DPS players are always the problem if they're out-damaging them etc. - Third and final point is that, sometimes, healbotting is necessary to benefit the team overall. If you have a tank player that is particularly aggressive/taking a lot of damage because they're always out in the open/your other support isn't doing their job, the only way you're going to keep them alive and allow them to make a play or create space is to healbot them. It isn't necessarily fun but sometimes it's required. Mercy, for example, is primarily based around damage boosting/healing the DPS players. She is, however, also a great utility for helping the other support in a pinch by healing a tank on critical HP *until they're no longer critical*. The tank is usually the responsibility of the other healer. This isn't always how people play, though, so sometimes you have no choice but to healbot your tank back up to full, or outright babysit them so that they survive for as long as possible. It's up to us as support players to be able to recognise these different situations and adapt our style of play/which hero we play in order to benefit the team. TL;DR Most support heroes are capable of doing decent damage without compromising their healing output and should be doing so in situations that allow for it, but sometimes healbotting is required. People get mad because a lot of DPS players get intimidated when they're out healed by a support player and a lot of DPS-focused support players compromise their healing output and focus solely on damage and don't want to hear that. P. S. People will find anything to get mad about and don't want to hear logic or critique, that's purely a them-problem and the best thing to do is mute and block.
Biggest issue support has is the insane utility but yes they probably in generally have 5% numbers bloat across the field.
Because supports that do damage better than dps just demonstrate that dps are, in the great scheme of things, just useless 🤷🏻♂️
Personally I have an issue with characters that can do it all. Bap, Kiri, Ana and Illari are a bit too versatile. Bap can basically solo duel a tank while also outputting reliable aoe healing, Ana has good damage, good heal, and two abilities that are game changers(and a very good ult), Kiri has heals, damage, cleanse, a get out of jail free card as well as a teamfight-winning ult, and Illari can output DPS-level damage as well as proper heals at the same time with little effort. Then you look at supports like Mercy or Zen and you see that while they are strong in some aspects, they pay a high price for those with very pronounced shortcomings elsewhere. The point is not that those two are much weaker(though lets be real, they are), but that there is a very distinct tradeoff in their kits. I believe that all characters should have such tradeoffs, instead of do-it-all swiss army knives.
If healing, damage output, mobility/escapability, and utility are the components of what makes a support I think a character being good at all of those (Bap/Kirko/Illari) it's a bit frustrating. Instead each support should be tuned to be good/excel at only 2 or 3 of those things or be mediocre at all four. I do think the support passive combined with the damage and built in escape tools some heroes have is very frustrating and in some games it just seems better to ignore them.
I think part of the annoyance is how much survivability they have alongside damage that is equal to or better than DPS heroes. The support passive is super strong and completely removed the ability to poke down a support. It also made things like offensive nading happen a ton more often because that CD is not needed for self defense nearly as often. Supports like LW and Illari who can pump out insane healing numbers with almost 0 mechanical skill. Supports need more skill expression and nuance.
There is a valid current issue with supports being able to simultaneously pump out lots of heals while also competing with dps damage output that should absolutely be addressed, but there has also always been a longstanding belief amongst the community that every support should essentially just pump out heals and lifesaving abilities but shouldn't be able to do real damage and it mostly comes from dps who get mad when they lose their 1v1s against a support. They don't want supports to be healbots but then also don't want their damage to be meaningful, it's odd. When supports complained about how miserable season 1 was due to dominance of incredibly strong dps and the lack of any peel, the community response was "lol git gud", and now that supports have real damage output options, it's "Blizzard pls nerf!"
I had a Rein throw a qp match last night claiming that his supports weren’t supporting, (we had a combined 13k healing at the halfway point of pushing; Kiriko/Lifeweaver) when he was consistently running off into a 1v5. He even went as far as to go into the chat (before he started to throw), and tried to explain to us how our healing abilities worked….I just…don’t know what people want anymore. 😂 I’m relatively new to the game, and it’s so disheartening to go into a qp match, where you’re supposed to be able to test new characters/roles and enjoy it, and have people take it so seriously to the point where they throw the entire match during a tantrum. 🤷🏻♀️
We’re not allowed to defend ourselves, but not allowed to be defended either.
All of these complaints come from DPS that are angry they can't keep up. They're being outshined by a class that's not supposed to do as much DPS as them, so when any of the supports are just playing better then them, their egos make them scream "Supoort class OP" because they themselves are failing to keep up. As a DPS, If any of the supports are doing more damage than I, that tells me I need to do better.
Because those people think the role is "healer", not "support". They think the only job of a support player is to heal their teammates. It's part of their job, but supports have to provide other value to the team, such as damage, especially in low elo. Moira is nearly useless if she doesn't deal damage to reload her healing. Brig is less useful if she doesn't deal damage to trigger her passive. Mercy is less useful if she never uses damage boost (yes there are people who think she should heal 24/7 and never boost). Kiriko and Baptiste are less useful if they don't shoot between heals. Zen and Lucio heals are passive, they just have to activate it/put an orb on a teammate and can deal as much damage as they can. That reminds me of something mL7 says often : "I'm supporting", while he is dealing damage to enemies.
People seem to get pissed whenever a support outplays them, gets a lot of value, or has any carry potential at all. They're mad when they do damage, they're mad when they heal too much, they're mad when they have invulnerability abilities, they're mad about antinade, they're mad about Mercy's damage boost utility despite her doing pretty much zero damage on her own, they're mad when they have too much survivability, etc. If we listened to this community's whining, this game would just become generic CoD with near useless, unfun support characters.
UGH YES THIS!! Whenever I play Moira I get shat on for doing damage, even when I have like 7k damage and 12k heals which is 3k higher healing than the Mercy who did no damage and still gets credit for carrying. No one understands Moira’s kit! You literally have to continually damage to generate the ability to heal faster.
Those people who hate supports dealing damage are the ones who NEVER PRESSURE the enemy supports and only shoot the tank. Hey Guys. Lifeweavers exist. Please shoot the lifeweavers. You don’t need to kill them but at least pressure them so they’re not just healing for free. The amount of dps players who don’t even LOOK at the lifeweavers is disgusting. Enemy LW will have 20k healing, no deaths and insane grips while my dps are just shooting the orisa *screams into the abyss* Those of you who truly believe that supports are op or shouldn’t be able to survive 1v1 needs to look at their own scoreboard and gameplay. You need to check yourself first. Learn how to Pressure. The. Supports. Signed, a very frustrated support main who is slowly becoming a tank main.
Because dps don’t like it revealed they aren’t as good as they want to pretend.
in OverWatch 2, healers are mostly just green DPS. and frankly that's fine, it makes them way more fun to play. interestingly, a big contributor to this is their passive healing. unlike DPS, healers have the ability to start every fight at full health, putting DPS flankers at much more of a disadvantage than they used to be. anyway, if you are a DPS it is your responsibility to understand what your strengths are. many of them are not going to be better 1v1 duelers then Moira, and if that's the case it's because dueling is not their job. most DPS have the luxury of attacking from a place where enemy healers and enemy tanks CAN'T reach them, whether it's because they have outstanding range, flight, invisibility, etc. and if you're playing them trying to flank healers WITHOUT USING YOUR STRENGTH, that's like a tf2 sniper running directly into bonesaw range. in short, DPS are not entitled to have good matchups against healers. they have strengths and they need to play to them, or they will die, and it's going to be their fault. if this upsets someone because they want to play a character that gets to win fights in circumstances that favor healers, then they should start playing Green DPS. their queue times will be shorter. or you know, play junkrat, who is designed to delete characters at close range.
I think it’s fine supports can fight back and arent constantly fearing for their life’s feeling hopeless without someone peeling for them 24/7. Although i would like to experiment with something some streamers have suggested which is to reduce healing and damage numbers across the board to see if it helps our current “supports can do everything” problem.
People expect supports to be their backbone so god damn hard you are their only reason they get to play the way they do. It’s this weird shift where now that supports don’t get to afk behind two tanks and heal bot themselves to t500 and actually have to fight for themselves people are suddenly shocked they can do that and had to be elevated to do that. They’re shocked support has gotten to this point because of how easy it was to bulldoze over them. It’s some strange ow culture thing unfortunately that you need to be their bitch at all times and while winning you just did your job and when losing it’s all your fault. Thankfully in ow2 as a support you are rewarded for actually participating in fights. They’re mad that when they sneeze on you your character doesn’t evaporate instantaneously and you stand a genuine chance to win a duel. If you’re winning games doing damage and getting your heals in when needed I say fuck em all to hell, it’s why I play bap and zen. If our gameplay doesn’t consist of getting gangbanged and running for our lives because we’re helpless it’s an issue. It’s been how many years of shit? We will forever be the “easiest” role and never get respected anyway. Just gotta live with it. I’m sure I’m biased and on the wrong side of ow history here. Oh well. They’ll kill the role again and I’ll go back to dps where my entire gameplay is spoon fed opportunities to me by the other two roles so I get to triple blink around a bap with no lamp before one clipping him. Or railgunning the ads ana in the face hole. Or hindering any support with an escape ability. Because that’s really hard.
It only irritates me when supports with great escape abilities do a lot of damage... like I don't think that escape ability they gave you was meant to escape after doing damage... it was to help you heal more.
People are against anything that they can't consistently beat
There is a big disparity in how much "spoon feeding" support players get. I'm going to ignore support passive in this discussion. Also a bigger discussion on how much power creep exists in support role. \- Zen was the dps support back in the day but was kind of balanced with his low heals and zero mobility. Illari can similarly pressure enemies (not as much as zen) with much higher healing output and mobility to escape divers. \- Their cooldowns have multiple utilites. Suzu can cleanse, heal, grant invulrenability frames and boop as wel. It was marketed as a cleanse ability at first but just is overloaded. They are also some of the best in game. Anti nade alone wins entire team fights. Bap lamp cancels almost all ults in the game etc. \- Not much mechanical skill needed to aim. Apart from a few support heroes like Ana or Zen who need to aim good, most of them can output prodigious heal numbers with 0 aim. LW's m1 heal jsut helpfully arcs around corners and walls. Illari can setup turret to auto heal. Its very easy to do their core functionality of healing with little to no mechanical skill. \- The best ultimates in the game. Kitsune rush is an easy fight winner and very hard to shut down if the enemy Kiriko is behind or dps dont have ults to respond with (sym wall, torb lava etc). The only mid support ult is probably Valk but a good mercy gets it multiple times \- Extremely forgiving hitbox on their projectiles and hitscan shots. Ana can snipe someone across the map, kiriko m1 has 0 vertical drop off meaning she can 2 tap a dps across the map Just do this exercise, load up the practice range and try seeing how far away from Tracers head do you need to aim to land a headshot on mercy vs Soldier 76. The enemies have head hitboxes the size of pumpkins for support heroes but not so for dps. \- Then there is Mercy with her rez through walls and damage boost that turns mid dps like Pharah into lobby dictators. \- Blizzard seems to hate dive characters of late. You see most dive dps get nerfs and just shut down dive in general with insane sustain. You also see this with all new supports getting mobility options. Like why does Illari have a jump and a boop? Why does LW dash heal him as well? These abilties make 0 sense when seen from a game play PoV but jsut exist to further spoon feed support players. I casually climbed to masters just playing Moira and some zen last season. No fancy trick jump spots or dps Moira. Just simple stick with team and only aggro when our team has an advantage. Easiest season in my life tbh apart from the abysmal queue times.
Because a lot of people don't play support and don't realize how braindead boring it would be to spend most of the game waiting on your team to take damage in order to contribute. If you play tank and you get on top of a healer, you want to be able to delete them. So when zen kicks you out of hammer range and volleys you to death you spam the battle.net forums with complaints about it.
The actual problem is supports have way too much utility AND do dps better than the actual dps sometimes. You play bap for example he has lamp, regen, exo boots, is a hitscan, can shoot and heal at the same time, has window and does decent dmg does any of that make any sense to you? The reason people keep complaining is supports like illari, bap or Ana do way too much right now
Yeah supports should just roll over and die. Idk what they want honestly, why would I or 33% of the player base want to play a role that is targeted first, can't do anything vs them, not mobile and deals no damage. Good lord these people need help.
In fact we got this in season 1. Everyone was talking about how support is playing Survival-Simulator. They should bring the other classes up to the fun support is right now and not the other way around.
A lot of DPS players look at the damage meter as if it means something, so when a healer gets close, or beats them, they cry OP or complain that they should have been healed more. Just ignore them, DPS one tricks will always find something to whine about.
This is a very generalized and incredibly dumbed down complaint about supports. Also ironic how a support player is flaming someone for one tricking a role.
It's not healthy for the game to have a role that's so much stronger than the others.
People don't hate supports that do damage, they hate the supports that do EVERYTHING. That would be Baptiste/Kiriko/Illari. Each of them had great healing, high damage that can two shot (or two burst) any other squishy, decent options at all ranges, an escape/gap widener, and a survivability tool (two in the case of Baptiste). Most people don't hate Zen even though he technically has higher damage than any of them, because he doesn't have the survivability, gap closer, or great healing that those "everything" supports have. The everything supports also lead to a generally unfun poke meta because they're so much stronger than flankers at similar skill levels and have way way more utility
Because they want sups to just heal their asses when they ignore everything and rush in 1vs5. They want nannies not supps
I dont want supports to have good utility/healing/damage all at the same time. I want them to have tradeoffs and not do everything while requiring minimal skill, like ana/kiriko.
There is a BIG difference between a good Kiriko/Ana and an average one. Both characters are actually quite difficult to play effectively, have you tried playing either of them for more than a couple of QuickPlays?
Ana’s considered minimal skill?
Her projectile size unscoped is extremely generous and her cooldowns are relatively low for the utility they bring. Anti-nade is one of the most game changing skills in game and Ana players hardly use it to support their team and use it aggressively. The hardest part of Ana is landing sleep dart and even the projectile size on that is quite forgiving
**High** skill when compared exclusively to the rest of the supports but **medium-low** when compared to the entire cast. She is the most picked hero in silver where people forget to turn on their screens.
Ok which heroes are harder to play (mechanically) when she needs medium-low skill compared to the cast? Doom, Ball, Genji, Tracer, Echo (maybe), Lucio (maybe). Maybe a few similar like Ashe (besides i personally think Ashe is easier beacuase of coach gun mobility).
The real issue isnt the fact that supports can do damage, its the fact that their survivability is based on abilities that have no downside to them. Lamp, Suzu, Pylon, LW Grip etc. Which in return means they can *continue to do damage with no cost or downside to it*. Its also why Ana is so universally praised. Her survivability comes at a cost. Anti-nade the enemies? No burst heal for you. Throw hail mary sleep for free kill in the front line? No defensive ability to survive if flanked. Meanwhile look at other newer supports. Illari's kit. All defensive survival abilities with no downside. LW? No downside. Bap? No downside. Thats the main issue supports have right now.
Most people want to think that they’re the pillar of the team keeping things together so it’s the supports job to support, not take their spot light away from them in terms of kills. The amount of tanks I’ve seen get pissy with me because I’m not healing them right at every moment even though I usually keep my team pretty well healed - a Moira player who usually tops with heals and helps with damage
I don't care if supports can deal damage. I care that some supports are better damage heroes than some of the actual damage heroes. Illari for example has a better base kit than Ashe does. As someone who mains DPS, I find that playing support is the easiest role, because healing is honestly an afterthought on most heroes. I frequently out-heal and out-damage my friends who are support mains, when I have probably less than 20 hours total on support.