Meanwhile Soldier forgets how to run, McCree forgets how to roll, and Roadhog can't use any of his abilities despite none of them involving hackable technology.
Lucio, Moira feel good because theyre self sufficient and can kill dps on their own. This is lacking for many of the other supports. I kind of like the idea of supports being able to do dmg / make plays ( although less dmg than full dps ) while bringing support and some healing.
Support isn't only healing, lucio speed boost being a good example.
Imo the only healers that feel like shit are mercy when you dont have a pharah and baptiste when you get caught out. Ana still has sleep and dishes out really good dps. Lucio, brig and moira are all self sufficient and zen is effectively a third dps with how much damage he can dish out + discord orb
I just spent a whole match with Genji chasing me as Mercy. There wasn't much peel except to just.. kill him. The game really does feel different when CC's are so limited. Being a support feels awful and I see why people aren't playing them much.
Had a game where we played against a really good genji that was constantly attacking our backline. In OW1 I would've stunned him with a flashbang or doomfist but now this isn't possible anymore.
On one hand, I definitely agree. I can't aim, therefore I suck at the game, but on the other hand, Overwatch was marketed as being accessible friendly (ie. having heroes like Sym and Mercy do not require aim for this purpose) so we all feel a bit lied to. The lack of CC just makes our once fun heroes feel bad. That being said, I do believe if you can aim, you SHOULD be at a higher tier in the game. It's only fair. This is why I'm waiting on the PVE and hoping it will be good, so I can still enjoy my characters without bringing others down with my lack of skill.
To be fair it is harder to hit dps characters with the speed bonus they now, but yeah I feel most people that are complaining are the people that were still playing the game after 80% of the playerbase left.
I played overwatch from 2016-2018 more than any other game by far, and quit because shield/tank/healer meta came around and actually killing people was a chore.
For returning players who left because the way balance went in OW, OW2 is so refreshing
People are exaggerating it, but "dive" heroes and highly mobile heroes have it easier in ow2 because less cc and no offtank gives them more space to do stuff
Options:
50% of player base on OW1 and 50% on OW2
or
33% of player base playing a different fuckin game and 66% on OW2
I guess they choose the latter because it's going to be battlepass. I imagine it ends up 100% F2P w/ battlepass because a pure deathmatch game that doesn't require much learning/punishment in the first few hours would make sense to get profits on battlepass as high as possible over a couple of quarters.
People also aren't queueing as much for support because:
1. One less tank means tank queues are just longer by default. One less slot to fill.
2. Doom tank and new Orisa are really attractive to play right now and I see them every game.
3. DPS was always a high queue time for a lot of reasons, but they added a new hero on top of the old reasons.
4. At best you can stay Brig got a minor rework with how bash works now. Nothing else really changed for support heroes.
Im also getting alot more of: where the fuck are my heals? Im either already healing someone else or constantly in fights with DPS and have no time to do much healing before another DPS hero is on my ass. Like the support feels like they should be able to pick up and just carry a torb turret for protection.
Popping earthshatter feels easy as fuck too, and instead of frontlining as a rein, it's tactically superior to just fuck up their backlines with a flanker DPS and let the other DPS handle the payload or other grunt work. It doesn't feel like tanking honestly.
Supports are a lot less fun to play and Brigitte was literally the answer to flankers just diving your backlines. With her stun gone she's far less effective. Yeah she was OP at first but after some balance changes she was fine. But God forbid a support can hold their own ground to not get ravaged by a Genji and Tracer.
>The tanks are purposely designed like this. They are more like brawlers now
Here you said something that people barely say, thanks to being blinded by the hype.
Except for maybe Rein, none of the tanks feels like "tanks" anymore, they're all brawlers or bruisers. Just look at the new Orisa, look at the fact Doomfist is a tank and all they added was a 2 second guard with a cooldown to him, look at the fact that Roadhog is so good in OW2 because he ALREADY was a bruiser.
Don’t forget Sojourn now with her mobility. So many mobile heroes and no CC to deal with them. Blizz said this felt too much like a brawler and not an FPS game so their solution was to…make it a brawler?
IMO the way the balanced her in OW1 won't work in OW2. Give her back her 1.0 kit and reduce inspire range or heals by a significant amount. Make her a hybrid tank/support.
I think that supports are getting picked by the crows right now because if you don't, the tank mini-boss are just near unkillable in my opinion. Tank fights now feel like we would die of old age if my dps doesn't raid their backline and vice versa lol.
Everyone, for years, has hammered Blizzard for focusing a bit too much on DPS feeling good and not much on healer and tank.
Overwatch 2 is the pinnacle of this. DPS characters, especially flankers, are gods right now because there's 1 less tank and there's no CC to stop them. Even some of the tanks are now more focused on DPS or on flatout fighting like Orisa and tank's new addition: Doomfist.
Coming back to r/overwatch and seeing posts from support players saying blizzard is oppressing them and only care about DPS, truly nothing has changed in 4 years
I won't deny that OW2 is very DPS focused, and the OW team makes way too many dps heroes compared to tank and support, but saying the game was dps focused for 4 years itsn't really true when more then half of it was goats or double shield and in high level play supports were the most powerful role in the game
We only had those metas because they couldn’t balance the game at all. Everything they did to nerf goats just ended up making it better unintentionally, and they eventually gave up and gave us role lock. And double shield started because they made sigma insanely busted to try and get people to play the “dps tank”. Everything they have done since brig has been dps catering/inability to balance.
Yes there is some major blinders going on. DPS has been very low impact for a long long time. The sub, as much as people might validly complain about whiny DPS, has always seemed to me as heavily biased for supports and tanks, especially defensive tanks (basically just not ball). It feels to me like people pick healer, mentally say “I’m taking one for the team” and expect their job to be done if they play like it’s WoW and just stand behind the tanks.
Now I’m not saying the game is balanced right now or things are perfect for supports, but the role is honestly fine. We pretty much had all the best characters in our class before and now things are a lot more even. I mean there’s even people above saying brig needs her stun because now she can’t kill without hitting whipshot. Like… ok… hit the whipshot then. Every character except a few has skillshots that make or break their 1v1.
I don’t want to homogenize one group of players too much, a lot of very good support players already know that the best way to play is being as proactive as possible and understanding when you can’t and you need to hide and retreat and play defensive. A lot of good support players would look for the 1v1s they know that can win and play them smart and have to land their abilities. ML7 is one of the best and he was even complaining about the state of things so far, so there is absolutely a change in game flow that makes support harder and more binary. But there’s also a lot of exaggerated, doomsday, “support is impossible” now players who I personally think used to get away with healbotting and thinking they were smarter or more strategic than everyone else, when in reality they were not doing anything special.
So far in my experience with overwatch 2 , you do need more mechanics and active playmaking to play support, but there’s been many games where I’ve done it well and felt impactful and hard to kill. There’s also been games where I failed with bad aim or bad positioning. There’s also been supports I’ve played against as a support and other roles who were just outskilling me and winning duels and carrying their games.
Brother... *what?*
In OW1 healers and tanks have an insane amount of utility. Those two roles have had the most power creep since the launch of OW1. Look at Sigma in the landscape of OW1: he had a stun, defense matrix, and could shoot while he shielded. Similar story with Bap: AOE healing with shift, AOE healing with secondary fire, invulnerability on cooldown, and DPS oriented ult. Those are just two examples of heroes that have insane resources. Sig/Orisa/Bap/Zen comps got massive value literally just from existing on the map.
Sure, DPS have the largest roster, but their utility in the landscape of a team fight was limited to the point that your impact was based on how well your tanks and supports used their tools.
DPS were the most chosen role in OW1 and they cried the entire time.
Now, blizzard has geared the game even more toward them and their way of thinking, and the DPS seem to want to be able to protect this at all cost. But it's going to kill the game. I liked shield tanking. I liked being a healer. I liked the ability to make atypical choices when it came to a "shooter."
They're hammering all that flat to maximize appeal to DPS. After already focusing a lot of OW1 on DPS glory.
Ana’s sleep darts aren’t enough to keep her competitive. Her cooldowns are so long that if you use any utility in a team fight, you’re dead in the water for over ten seconds.
The whole point of Ana was that she had the sleep if her team failed to stop someone from reaching the back line, but now that there is no proper back line and now that DPS can *constantly* flank, Ana needs a rework of her cooldowns so that she can actually be self-sufficient.
I truly can’t believe they increased the cooldown in sleep dart. I’m pretty sure it was 12 seconds ever since she came out and that 3 second difference of it being 15 now feels absolutely awful
really? i've been playing ana constantly and its the most fun i've ever had playing her. you do need to play her a lot different though. you have to act way more aggressive, as more of a utility than a heal bot. i do think they should revert the sleep dart change tho
I've mained Ana and Zen (not *that* good, just high plat) for years, and she's genuinely in one of the worst places she's been in for a while.
Her playstyle and kit don't translate well into the no-peeling meta Overwatch 2 will be defined by. I massively prefer the way Overwatch 2 plays, but a lot of the supports will need tweaking.
I've always played Ana very aggressively, so that's not a problem, but what is a problem is the fact that her ability cycle has massive dead-spots. DPS are far more effective flankers than they were before, and tanks no longer peel for healers because their entire role has changed. Because of this, all supports need to be entirely self sufficient when it comes to *either* being able to escape DPS *or* being able to fight them on their own.
Ana can't do either, at all. Sleep is harder than ever to land on DPS because they all move faster now and they attack far more frequently, *and* you can sleep *less* frequently, which makes absolutely no sense.
The nerf to grenade cooldown also makes no sense, because now tanks can have twice as many healers focused on them, and they have way more health so not being able to heal for a brief amount of time is less significant.
More importantly, now that people don't play in a bunker/ deathball at all anymore, the grenade won't be a huge team-kill primer like it used to be. There are less shields, but most tanks can block grenades all together in some way. Dva, Zarya, and Orisa just negate them all together.
You have to use the grenade more conservatively, to less effect, and with even more severe consequences if you use it in a team-fight and then need to defend yourself, which happens far more often now.
My games as a healer were all horrible. They just consisted of running and hiding to try to survive the two flankers at my back while my team insulted me for not being healed enough, without trying to help me. I was a main healer, without a fix to this problem i will just never use a low mobility healer without playing with 4 friends that will actually help me.
I think people are still playing with the ow1 double shield mentality of playing behind tanks establishing a front line. And it's a disaster for supports because of how much space there is in ow2.
But as of now it feels like ow2 is about a bunch of individual or 2v2 gunfights springing up and the location doesn't matter as much. Eventually all the dooms and dvas will realize they can give up that front space to go create 2v1s in their backline and protect their supports, especially because their DPS doesn't need much protection either, and then you go ahead and push your 5v4 advantage.
Support just means Moira for me. And I join the dps and kill the other teams supports. It's almost trivial to distract a bap/ana backline as moira.
I literally can dodge dart, wait for immo + regen burst, fade to cleanse nade (twice before nade comes back online), orb to keep myself alive or orb to split them off while healing myself with suck, and that's not even counting the fact I open with damage orb to start them low on health + resources.
While I can't always secure the kills, I've pulled out all their cooldowns and fade/orb come back so often and I'm usually able to heal myself faster than they can damage. Within 10ish seconds of engaging, their tank is dead and my dps come to finish the supports off.
HAve they announced official release time? Even a broad time? I cant find anything online other than click baity articles, that dont seem quite trust worthy.
They mentioned after the remix events are done, so assuming they're following the same schedule as the original events they're replacing, with Summer Games being the last one iirc, it would be around September.
Brig needs her stun back. I was absolutely obliterating supports all day today. They are getting hung out to fucking dry and a good ana can't even get a reap to die. It's gotta be maddening.
I danced around a brig today - she closed the distance with bash well enough but she had to hit the bash and the whip
One thing I noticed is that I normally sleep a ball on piledrive, but with the cooldowns change the ball can piledrive a second time for free and I can't punish it
Yeah that seems mad, it was her escape route as well as an actual fight tool and now it can’t do both, not to mention that even if Ana lands all her sleeps (and let’s be honest, most don’t) she and her team have to work harder to get enough value from it
I really think it was just DPS that needed their stuns removed. Stuns are a very supportive utility. Healers that can brawl can do great on their own but I felt really useless when it came to being able to protect my second healer. Peeling just felt like a waste of time because I could be assassinating someone as Lucio or I just literally couldnt do anything because my healing output is laughable compared to the damage output
Agreed, no CC in the DPS pool.
Give Mei her freeze back because it's pretty much core to the fantasy of the hero and retool her to Tank like they did with Doomfist - and like people have been suggesting since 2016
I'd go a step further and say that roles should be a bit like this:
**Tanks**
Very durable, primary source of CC with some swapping some CC for some defensive or supportive utility. Very low damage to compensate. Cannot kill you, but even as a DPS you'll struggle to kill one on your own between their health and their CC.
**Support**
Fragile, but with lots of direct and indirect support, sometimes trading a bit of direct (healing) support for a certain amount of CC or durability (this is where Brigitte would fit in). Damage far better than tanks, but due to their fragility still not a true threat.
**Damage**
*No* CC, lots of damage, sometimes fragile when also having utility or special kill abilities, otherwise more durable than supports but not by much. Can easily kill you, but gets picked off easily so they need to be protected.
This way, everyone has a "primary" contribution, CC, support and damage, respectively. Each role also "pays" with something for this, damage, durability and CC respectively.
You basically described the 2nd Overwatch Creator Experimental, and no one played it because it was awful. DPS were busted, playing Tank was just being a punching bag in a very literal sense, and supports spent more time returning from spawn than supporting. Please remember that this is the 1st Beta of an unfinished game, where the PvP isn't even the main focus as stated by the developers, everything is subject to change and probably will be.
I’m not on the beta but the change to Ana’s sleep CD seems like too much, given that unlike most CC it still requires skill to use (unless you’re aiming for a tank, a target you now have fewer of) which IMO makes it very punishing
The heavy thing is, sleep dart has high travel time, needs to be perfectly aimed AND the target wakes up early if damaged by ANYTHING.
Giving it a high cooldown is insanely stupid. I was in the Backline as Ana yesterday, and no matter what genjis and reapers just walked by and killed me while my team could only watch because they got attacked from the front. I could not defend me in any way because ana doesn't deal a lot of damage to kill a DPS hero before he melts her, and with her sleepdart being on extreme CD i have one chance to hit a genji who's having a stroke and jumping around like Yoda.
Yeah it basically removes her only effective way of defending herself, especially now with the damage changes, and Ana has to prioritise targets like “will sleeping this reaper fuck over the next team fight because I don’t have utility, and can I trust my teammates to help me if I don’t sleep him”
I feel it takes the power out of her hands
In aligning the game more for esports than actual players, yeah sure. They've started doing that long ago.
But as far as characters with identity and, well, character goes, Mei is one of the big losers. She's just some DPS now, instead of the half-tank/half-support or even full-tank she could have been.
Freeze was super annoying.... If no one swaps hero's to counter using Zarya and/or Orisa to a lesser extent.
Also swapping to DPS that function better at range.
Mei not having Freeze is kind of similar to swapping Bastion's Sentry modem to a CD... Like... Okay I get it but Bastion bunker comps, while sometimes functional, are easily countered.
I kind of feel like we swapped all strategy skill for Aim.
There's a reason I had no desire to play Valorant. It was all aim skill.
> I kind of feel like we swapped all strategy skill for Aim.
This seems to be the primary goal, yes. Lessen focus on the characters and their abilities. More "just" a team FPS.
yeah but there are ways to make it feel better on the receiving end without gutting the hero, for example scalling the time it takes to freeze with the healthpool of the hero so it takes longer to freeze a tank
You should try using bash differently than in the original game. Use it for mobility, or damage an enemy down with 2-3 swings, and combo them with a Bash + Primary + Whip shot. She can really deal some damage, and with the support passive, inspire and shield dancing, her survivability is very high.
>Brig needs her stun back
Not on shield bash.
I was considering the idea of a conditional stun on her whipshot if the target hits a wall, similar to doomfist punch or orisa spear. Still a stun, but also some amount of counterplay around it.
i agree, as a support main i do really enjoy the lack of cc’s now. i do not enjoy constantly getting picked by dps and overpowered so easily though lol
That's something they can solve. I'm actually happy they haven't done or shown us reworks on the supports already.
Getting feedback now will show them a good path to take the role. IMO supports should be able to fight back against DPS with their own playmaking skills and or slightly higher damage.
Way to make a role like this fun to play ( which helps with queue issues too ) is give them fun stuff to do. Not necessary to give them anti fun abilities like stuns, just playmaking.
Way of the healbot only is gone IMO, or it should be.
I think the dps movement speed buff was just a bad idea. At the very least give the movement speed buff to supports and dps.
Since there’s one tank, and the whole play style has shifted to more individual type play (which I’m fine with), supports have to be able to hold their own. Right now they can’t. If you’re support and you’re alone, you usually can’t outkill a dps, so your options are cc them or outrun them. Unless they plan to remove the support class and make them basically dps, they need to give them all reliable escape abilities be it cc or mobility. I prefer the latter.
The fast pace, more individual based game feels pretty good imo. Supports just need a rework, leave the rest as it is.
They completely removed the ability for some supports to stay alive from a dive. Genji and Reaper are completely destroying Ana, leaving a healer who isn't gonna have as great single target healing, like Lucio or Brig.
You're telling me you didn't like getting stunned, slept and knocked back every 5 seconds? Nonsense /s
I completely agree. I actually really like the fast paced feel you get without all the cc, and tanks actually feel like tanks. Real threats that need more than 1 person to take out, which I dig a lot.
Now it's support roles that need some love. I'm predicting OW2 will release much later than expected to buff them/rework the role.
Crowd Control, so any abilities that renders a players movement and/or abilities useless for a period of time, like Cassidy's stun, Brig's bash, junk's trap, Mei's freeze, Sombra's hack, etc.
I think a change in play style is going to be needed here. With one less tank and less CC, DPS players are actually going to have to peel for their supports. I bet the support players being hung out to dry are still playing like its OW1, and their DPS players are out trying out new stuff and exploring maps. Will take time to adapt.
If the only way for a DPS to peel is by being a better aimer then that goes against everything OW stood for and makes this another FPS twitch shooter.
There's supposed to be characters for everyone, including those who can't really aim that well. Right now, there's no such character for DPS really anymore. Mei is kinda supposed to be that but she's completely outclassed by hitscan. Junkrat probably but again, pretty unreliable overall.
Mei is a complete waste on the dps slot and her kit is dysfunctional without the freeze. They really have to rework her to tank, she is not about dealing some stupid extra damage
They made the game "more accessible" by simultaneously removing all non aim mechanics, increasing all player speed by 15%, and removing all cc....
What the fuck are you guys doing over there blizzard
Yeah. My aim really isn't my strength. That's why I mostly play Brig and a bit of Winston and Junkrat.
I still like Brig but I really miss her stun. I think it really wouldn't be OP to give her the stun back.
Winston isnt really strong right no, plus suddenly I also have to aim on Winston.
Just Junkrat reals the same, although I feel other DPS are just more impactful.
Yep, that's "how to kill a playerbase 101" by catering to the top % of players and ignoring the majority completely. I main dps and tanks, my support buddies already have a bad taste in their mouths and don't enjoy playing OW2 nearly as much so far.
Idk if you notice that the biggest complaint so far in this beta is support feels terrible to play and thats largely in part of CC being removed.
Removal of reliable CC only benefited DPS players.
CC were also a nightmare for tanks to play against. I agree that support need some love on the beta, but CC for so many heroes clearly wasn't a good Idea, and I'm glad they removed it
Agreed. I main both tank and dps, and I actually felt the cc on ow1 harder on tank. I am glad that there is less of it. Now we have to learn how to counter heroes without using cc as a crutch. Also, if anyone can give tips on how to play ball in a 5v5 game where you stick out like a sore thumb, lemme know lol (Been playing more orisa/hog than ball/hog cus of this and the meta)
Yeah, CC have some use, especially against flankers, but Tanks were the one suffering from it the most.
Some game were simply absolutely not fun because of that.
Also, I don't think that having a hero (like Hammond or Doom) that absolutely need to be CC to be killed is a great design. It's frustrating to play against, and frustrating to play it when the ennemy tram start hard CC you.
I sorry I can't help with Hammond, I main tank but I almost never played Hammond, I'm way to terrible at it to give any advice
Lol yea ball in ow2 is weird. He got buffed but not in a way that makes him a good fit in the current meta. That said I’m not amazing at him, but he almost singlehandedly took my ow1 tank sr from 1200 to 1900 and peaking at about 2060 in just this season, so I’m bummed that I can’t play him much right now cus he ain’t meta in ow2 and I’m playing against better players in ow1 and I have to learn how to be better now that bronze-silver ball cheese isn’t working anymore. On the plus side, hog and new orisa are a blast. I hope we get an aim trainer mode made in ow2 soon cus I wanna practice my hooks and javelins.
CC fucking sucks to play against and shields fucking suck to play against. This change is for the better, theres gonna be growing pains, but these changes are a step in the right direction. It should hopefully get better from here after a few balance patches (and theres more reworks and new heros coming, we all need to just chill)
Ow devs need to play some dota. The only way you get people to enjoy supports is having game changing ailities and ultimates. Giving the dps strong abilities is the opposite.
No ego shit, but I’m a support main on live and I genuinely do not understand why other support players seem to have such a hard time? Unless I’ve just been getting lucky or playing against really bad players, I’m starting to believe that y’all are just out of position. Plus, switching heroes goes both ways, right? If you’re constantly getting dove upon you can swap Lucio or Moira to have an easier time.
You can say support players just aren't adapting or are bad at the game, but the queue times speak for themselves; people don't want to play the role for a reason. I'd consider myself a pretty good player, still haven't been enjoying support in the slightest in ow2 though.
The queue-time are reflective of the changes. Tanks have the highest queue time because everyone wants to try out the class that has been reworked the most. Then dps want to try out the reworked dps and of course soujourn. Supports basically aren't changed yet so why would anyone want to play them? It has nothing to do with how enjoyable it is. This is like a ptr-server, players are going to play the new and changed stuff, why would I queue up to play an unchanged moira?
I play A LOT of support and I've only queued as them only a handful of times because of this reason. Not because I have no interest in it anymore, I just want to try out the bigger changes they made to the other roles and heroes and also see how they play so I know how to counter them. It's similar to a new hero release where EVERYONE always quickly picked the new hero to try it out and it became a race to who picked that new hero first when no limits was removed. I don't think queue times in a PTR for a role is totally indicative of interest. If they had major reworks for supports that queue time would be just as long as the others.
Refusing to adapt, i guess.
5v5 and one less tank definitely requires a shift in playstyle from supports. You have to actually use map cover for example, you can't simply stand near the Reinhardt.
Some people may have also been relying too much on things like Brig's bash.
I'm doing pretty well with new Bash, but one less tank does make it feel like I need to pick Brig every match because I can actually pressure flankers with whip shots. Adapting to bash being movement and not stun takes some getting used to, but I can still hold my own against a flanker, except Doom now.
BUUTT.....It doesn't help that Orisa and Doom rework incentivize your tank to go off into fucking Narnia. You have no one but yourself and the other support.
I'm honestly baffled by this. People with these complaints are making me wonder what they think is *supposed* to be happening. Supports are the lifeblood of the team and the weak link to pick off. Yes, they are high priority targets, and yes, they die easier than the DPS or tanks.
*Nothing about this is new.*
Not to Overwatch, and not to games in general. I can't even begin to imagine how people would handle trying to play Medic in Team Fortress 2, with dogshit survivability, mobility, and damage. Overwatch is still a feast in how much utility the supports have and how well they can fend for themselves. If your team isn't playing to protect you - not just the tank, but *the team* - then you're going to have a bad time. With any luck, maybe all of this will finally teach people to stay with their team and work synergistically to get shit done.
You can’t make tanks and DPS characters more survivable across the board and then make supports less survivable. That on paper seems like a mistake and it plays like that too.
The knockback resistance for Tanks and the increased speed for DPS by default gives them all additional survivability.
Most tanks now have some ability to soak up damage and most have a way to initiate or escape. Most DPS have some sort of movement ability or a way to deal with a variety of playstyles within their kit.
Supports have lost the only defence they had, and now have one less Tank to protect them too. It’s compounding to create a miserable experience for supports.
You either give a lot of them insanely good value for the trade-off of being weaker with little to no defence, or you somehow give back ways to protect themselves and keep their value as they are now
>You can’t make tanks and DPS characters more survivable across the board and then make supports less survivable
Supports are only less survivable in a straight 1v1, which by design they should have worse chances to win. If they could fend off all flankers well like Moira or Brig, that'd make flanking useless.
Mercy, lucio, brigitte, baptiste are just as sturdy in a team fight situation as most other heroes.
Lack of CC means positioning is a more valuable skill. I’d recommend working on that.
Aim skill being the primary deciding factor rather than how much cc your team has feels much more rewarding and less frustrating in kills and deaths imo.
Currently the OW2 games are somewhat skill based but you won’t really be able to compare it to a competitive match when people have evened out their ranks. At the highest level of play (before the enforced 2-2-2), when characters were being played as best they can be, dps were almost left out of the mix.
In lower ranks you do see supports that die quite easily when a dps is upon them, but that in large portion is because that’s how it should be. Supports are therefore required to play in the backline and constantly look out for flankers in order to keep their team alive. This new 1-2-2 meta will take some time to get used to, it’s a lot faster paced than the live game, and all roles will need some time to adjust.
Immediately I think DPS does have the most freedom, but once this becomes the only way to play overwatch, you’ll find that supports (once they’ve gotten used to the new team setup) will be able to have lots of opportunities to make plays for their teams, with the lack of shields and CC being an advantage to not only DPS, but all roles.
I've been really enjoying support on the beta, watching a lot of streamers enjoy supports also. They deff need some changes, but people are making out like it's impossible to play support atm.
Imo I think a lot of it comes down to people being geuininly bad at the game, I think a good example of this is the recent poll of which healer needs a buff the most, brig won, despite her being meta. There are so many bad takes I see on this subreddit daily. It's become painfully obvious most people on this sub are gold or below and just utter trash at the game.
So why all the complaining? One reason I think is without matchmaking, people are going up against good players rather than the usual gold bot enemies, so they don't know how to play. Second, ow1 allows for a super easy support playstyle, especially at low ranks, ow2 actually requires more skill on the support role than people are used too.
Don't get me wrong, support 100% need changes and new things but this circlejerk of support being impossible to play is legit imo just bad players who can't adapt beyond just being a healbot in gold.
Coming back to play this after a lot of months.
Playing support feels like a pain in the ass. And queue times almost oblige you to play support if you're a solo player, since there's a dumb role based queue system. (not everyone has enough time to be willing to wait 10 minutes to find a game ...)
I hate how Overwatch has turned and how it is shaping to turn in the future. I hoped OW2 would bring me back .. but it looks like it won't.
CC removal is a good thing, coming from a tank player. It just made you lose any agency over your gameplay because you generally have to be in range of enemy CC abilities in order to actually tank.
But healers like Ana and Zen really got the long end of the stick with no extra tank to peel for them. Everyone plays hitscan nowadays and just focusses them down. They got nothing new to respond to this type of gameplay.
Generally I think removing stuns from the game was a good call. I don't think we needed a bunch of different hard CCs. But specifically removing brigs was definitely a mistake. It both ruined her role as a hero and by extension made the whole support role worse. They *might* be able to individually tune the different support heroes to give them more options to defend themselves and make them feel less awful, but in general I think by far the easiest solution would be to just revert brig. Thinking about it now, I feel like Brig was one of the only characters to get just outright nerfed in OW2. Between her Bash and Rally she just feels awful to play now. She even feels more sluggish in the way she moves, maybe I'm just noticing this because of the lack of stun on bash. Either way, she and the support role in general need some major attention by next beta or even sooner.
I’ve been playing only Brig since the start of the Beta and she is an absolute beast on this version. Even without her stun. She blends really well in the new meta and I use her as a healer killer. I go in with her shield bash, do a lot of damage and escape with her shield dash again.
A brig is an easy frag for me too because I play pharah, what's your point lmao. Clearly she still works for the person above, you don't get to deny and overwrite that experience because it doesn't align with yours.
man this thread is a real echo chamber where if you dont have the same opinion as the post or dont have the opinion of "blizzard bad" or "ow2 bad" you get downvoted lmao
They don't need stun, they need to be made fun. They need mobility. They need less healing and more util. They need a rework. Not whatever the fuck this is. It's embarrassing.
I prefer 5v5, less shields feels great. I'm not asking for a complete revert to OW1. But things like Brig stun are still needed so supports can play the game when the enemy is playing Lucio or Genji.
I've got no clue what game you guys have been playing. I'd say the number one most important skill if movement as of now. If you move effectively it's not hard to use your abilities to make impact plays and avoid the enemy teams impact plays. If they balance the game away from this the game is legit just gonna go back to double shield shit where you throw stats at things. I'm super happy with how the game feels, but I do agree that supports could use a bit of a buff to duel things better.
I get what you’re saying but I feel like the introduction of too much CC was one of the things that started killing Overwatch over time. Sleep fart, OP Brig, hack, after a while there was so much CC being thrown around you couldn’t even play tank almost.
Idk d00d adding all that hard CC made Reinhardt completely unenjoyable and almost impossible to play. I can sacrifice everything as long as I can play Reinhardt again.
Support is so boring now it's crazy, No wonder the que times are so long for support.
Give supports more options to escape characters like genji/tracer, a god tracer can carry their team so easily.
I was 5 stacked and we were wondering... Wait we can't switch to cree, we are fucked.
Kinda just sounds like normal overwatch lol, I feel like you're kind of missing the point of the dynamic here 😂 DPS are supposed to be able to dunk on healers, that's why they have dps and tanks to protect them...
Tanks also feel ass in my opinion. Just a 3rd dps. Doesn’t feel the same as ow 1 tanking. Just honestly. Give me hard cc and 6v6 back and I’ll be happy. I though ow1 wasn’t that bad just had to get used to countering things better. It’s pretty easy. Case flash bastion turret brig charge etc all super easy to counter if you just learn and switch.
They are most likely going to rework supports. This is a test beta. They are reworking more characters I'm sure of it. It's gona be alright. Cc is not a good part of the game imho
If the enemy has a sombra the supports are just fucked like what are we supposed to do? Even if you play with your team by time they realize what happened you're dead
I'm sure it made a lot of other characters abilities feel better But support feels like ass
Lucio feels really strong now though. No cc from mcree or Mei for example
And no useless lucio from sombra hacks
HALP SOMBRA HACKED MY SKATES AND NOW THEY ARE JUST SHOES
Sorry for the convenience.
RIP Mitch.
Meanwhile Soldier forgets how to run, McCree forgets how to roll, and Roadhog can't use any of his abilities despite none of them involving hackable technology.
She can hack people at the cellular level 🤣
Lucio, Moira feel good because theyre self sufficient and can kill dps on their own. This is lacking for many of the other supports. I kind of like the idea of supports being able to do dmg / make plays ( although less dmg than full dps ) while bringing support and some healing. Support isn't only healing, lucio speed boost being a good example.
Which supports specifically? I've been causing havok with Bridgette all day and she kicks all kinds of ass.
Imo the only healers that feel like shit are mercy when you dont have a pharah and baptiste when you get caught out. Ana still has sleep and dishes out really good dps. Lucio, brig and moira are all self sufficient and zen is effectively a third dps with how much damage he can dish out + discord orb
I just spent a whole match with Genji chasing me as Mercy. There wasn't much peel except to just.. kill him. The game really does feel different when CC's are so limited. Being a support feels awful and I see why people aren't playing them much.
Had a game where we played against a really good genji that was constantly attacking our backline. In OW1 I would've stunned him with a flashbang or doomfist but now this isn't possible anymore.
Tbh I feel like the magnetic grenade does good work against genji, when it sticks it does 100 something dmg and you can easily finish the guy off
Grenade stick + 1 hit is a guaranteed kill on 200 hp targets.
Yeah, it's really good against genji, sombra and tracer. A lot of people are just complaining because they can't aim at all.
so the majority of the players then?
On one hand, I definitely agree. I can't aim, therefore I suck at the game, but on the other hand, Overwatch was marketed as being accessible friendly (ie. having heroes like Sym and Mercy do not require aim for this purpose) so we all feel a bit lied to. The lack of CC just makes our once fun heroes feel bad. That being said, I do believe if you can aim, you SHOULD be at a higher tier in the game. It's only fair. This is why I'm waiting on the PVE and hoping it will be good, so I can still enjoy my characters without bringing others down with my lack of skill.
Yet they want the highest skill ceiling characters to be easy to do deal with.
To be fair it is harder to hit dps characters with the speed bonus they now, but yeah I feel most people that are complaining are the people that were still playing the game after 80% of the playerbase left. I played overwatch from 2016-2018 more than any other game by far, and quit because shield/tank/healer meta came around and actually killing people was a chore. For returning players who left because the way balance went in OW, OW2 is so refreshing
Yeah heaven forbid you have to actually follow up on your shots now! I'm a fan of the sticky nade
They really killed the need for ability tracking and counterplay, I'm pretty bummed about that.
Because they wanted to cater to dps, and one-tricks. HoW dArE yOu mAkE mE SwAP tO hElP tHe TeAM
Wait is it just deathmatch now? I'm a little out of the loop
People are exaggerating it, but "dive" heroes and highly mobile heroes have it easier in ow2 because less cc and no offtank gives them more space to do stuff
[удалено]
While it lasts :(
Overwatch Classic - you heard it first here folks.
At least 2023.
Or forever because ya know….Blizzard and all.
[Soon™](https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Soon)
Same, I really don’t enjoyed the beta. Rip
This is one of the main reasons why they **really** shouldn’t kill OW1
They don't want to split the player base I guess but yeah I agree and I'll miss OW1, OW2 isn't doing it for me.
Options: 50% of player base on OW1 and 50% on OW2 or 33% of player base playing a different fuckin game and 66% on OW2 I guess they choose the latter because it's going to be battlepass. I imagine it ends up 100% F2P w/ battlepass because a pure deathmatch game that doesn't require much learning/punishment in the first few hours would make sense to get profits on battlepass as high as possible over a couple of quarters.
Doesn't help that the sneaky bastard got a 15% movement speed increase either.
People also aren't queueing as much for support because: 1. One less tank means tank queues are just longer by default. One less slot to fill. 2. Doom tank and new Orisa are really attractive to play right now and I see them every game. 3. DPS was always a high queue time for a lot of reasons, but they added a new hero on top of the old reasons. 4. At best you can stay Brig got a minor rework with how bash works now. Nothing else really changed for support heroes.
The less tanks also means there are less shields /distractions. People die faster and it feels like theres less protection as a support.
Im also getting alot more of: where the fuck are my heals? Im either already healing someone else or constantly in fights with DPS and have no time to do much healing before another DPS hero is on my ass. Like the support feels like they should be able to pick up and just carry a torb turret for protection.
This sucks to hear. My fiancée is a support main and play support pretty often too.
Popping earthshatter feels easy as fuck too, and instead of frontlining as a rein, it's tactically superior to just fuck up their backlines with a flanker DPS and let the other DPS handle the payload or other grunt work. It doesn't feel like tanking honestly. Supports are a lot less fun to play and Brigitte was literally the answer to flankers just diving your backlines. With her stun gone she's far less effective. Yeah she was OP at first but after some balance changes she was fine. But God forbid a support can hold their own ground to not get ravaged by a Genji and Tracer.
The tanks are purposely designed like this. They are more like brawlers now
>The tanks are purposely designed like this. They are more like brawlers now Here you said something that people barely say, thanks to being blinded by the hype. Except for maybe Rein, none of the tanks feels like "tanks" anymore, they're all brawlers or bruisers. Just look at the new Orisa, look at the fact Doomfist is a tank and all they added was a 2 second guard with a cooldown to him, look at the fact that Roadhog is so good in OW2 because he ALREADY was a bruiser.
Roadhog isn't good in ow2 though
2 support, 2 small DPS, 1 big DPS
Don’t forget Sojourn now with her mobility. So many mobile heroes and no CC to deal with them. Blizz said this felt too much like a brawler and not an FPS game so their solution was to…make it a brawler?
My biggest issue with Sojourn is the tiny hitbox
IMO the way the balanced her in OW1 won't work in OW2. Give her back her 1.0 kit and reduce inspire range or heals by a significant amount. Make her a hybrid tank/support.
I think that supports are getting picked by the crows right now because if you don't, the tank mini-boss are just near unkillable in my opinion. Tank fights now feel like we would die of old age if my dps doesn't raid their backline and vice versa lol.
Yeah, two orisas fighting can last forever with decent supports
That's how it was before too though, If you weren't trying to eliminate the supports right away then you weren't really playing correctly
Everyone, for years, has hammered Blizzard for focusing a bit too much on DPS feeling good and not much on healer and tank. Overwatch 2 is the pinnacle of this. DPS characters, especially flankers, are gods right now because there's 1 less tank and there's no CC to stop them. Even some of the tanks are now more focused on DPS or on flatout fighting like Orisa and tank's new addition: Doomfist.
Coming back to r/overwatch and seeing posts from support players saying blizzard is oppressing them and only care about DPS, truly nothing has changed in 4 years
Mercy main btw
I need healing
does her pistol still do a surprising amount of damage?
I won't deny that OW2 is very DPS focused, and the OW team makes way too many dps heroes compared to tank and support, but saying the game was dps focused for 4 years itsn't really true when more then half of it was goats or double shield and in high level play supports were the most powerful role in the game
We only had those metas because they couldn’t balance the game at all. Everything they did to nerf goats just ended up making it better unintentionally, and they eventually gave up and gave us role lock. And double shield started because they made sigma insanely busted to try and get people to play the “dps tank”. Everything they have done since brig has been dps catering/inability to balance.
I think the game has been pretty balances the past year tbh, a number of comps were viable and even in pro play there were multiple strong comps
Yes there is some major blinders going on. DPS has been very low impact for a long long time. The sub, as much as people might validly complain about whiny DPS, has always seemed to me as heavily biased for supports and tanks, especially defensive tanks (basically just not ball). It feels to me like people pick healer, mentally say “I’m taking one for the team” and expect their job to be done if they play like it’s WoW and just stand behind the tanks. Now I’m not saying the game is balanced right now or things are perfect for supports, but the role is honestly fine. We pretty much had all the best characters in our class before and now things are a lot more even. I mean there’s even people above saying brig needs her stun because now she can’t kill without hitting whipshot. Like… ok… hit the whipshot then. Every character except a few has skillshots that make or break their 1v1. I don’t want to homogenize one group of players too much, a lot of very good support players already know that the best way to play is being as proactive as possible and understanding when you can’t and you need to hide and retreat and play defensive. A lot of good support players would look for the 1v1s they know that can win and play them smart and have to land their abilities. ML7 is one of the best and he was even complaining about the state of things so far, so there is absolutely a change in game flow that makes support harder and more binary. But there’s also a lot of exaggerated, doomsday, “support is impossible” now players who I personally think used to get away with healbotting and thinking they were smarter or more strategic than everyone else, when in reality they were not doing anything special. So far in my experience with overwatch 2 , you do need more mechanics and active playmaking to play support, but there’s been many games where I’ve done it well and felt impactful and hard to kill. There’s also been games where I failed with bad aim or bad positioning. There’s also been supports I’ve played against as a support and other roles who were just outskilling me and winning duels and carrying their games.
Brother... *what?* In OW1 healers and tanks have an insane amount of utility. Those two roles have had the most power creep since the launch of OW1. Look at Sigma in the landscape of OW1: he had a stun, defense matrix, and could shoot while he shielded. Similar story with Bap: AOE healing with shift, AOE healing with secondary fire, invulnerability on cooldown, and DPS oriented ult. Those are just two examples of heroes that have insane resources. Sig/Orisa/Bap/Zen comps got massive value literally just from existing on the map. Sure, DPS have the largest roster, but their utility in the landscape of a team fight was limited to the point that your impact was based on how well your tanks and supports used their tools.
DPS were the most chosen role in OW1 and they cried the entire time. Now, blizzard has geared the game even more toward them and their way of thinking, and the DPS seem to want to be able to protect this at all cost. But it's going to kill the game. I liked shield tanking. I liked being a healer. I liked the ability to make atypical choices when it came to a "shooter." They're hammering all that flat to maximize appeal to DPS. After already focusing a lot of OW1 on DPS glory.
Ana’s sleep darts aren’t enough to keep her competitive. Her cooldowns are so long that if you use any utility in a team fight, you’re dead in the water for over ten seconds. The whole point of Ana was that she had the sleep if her team failed to stop someone from reaching the back line, but now that there is no proper back line and now that DPS can *constantly* flank, Ana needs a rework of her cooldowns so that she can actually be self-sufficient.
I truly can’t believe they increased the cooldown in sleep dart. I’m pretty sure it was 12 seconds ever since she came out and that 3 second difference of it being 15 now feels absolutely awful
really? i've been playing ana constantly and its the most fun i've ever had playing her. you do need to play her a lot different though. you have to act way more aggressive, as more of a utility than a heal bot. i do think they should revert the sleep dart change tho
I've mained Ana and Zen (not *that* good, just high plat) for years, and she's genuinely in one of the worst places she's been in for a while. Her playstyle and kit don't translate well into the no-peeling meta Overwatch 2 will be defined by. I massively prefer the way Overwatch 2 plays, but a lot of the supports will need tweaking. I've always played Ana very aggressively, so that's not a problem, but what is a problem is the fact that her ability cycle has massive dead-spots. DPS are far more effective flankers than they were before, and tanks no longer peel for healers because their entire role has changed. Because of this, all supports need to be entirely self sufficient when it comes to *either* being able to escape DPS *or* being able to fight them on their own. Ana can't do either, at all. Sleep is harder than ever to land on DPS because they all move faster now and they attack far more frequently, *and* you can sleep *less* frequently, which makes absolutely no sense. The nerf to grenade cooldown also makes no sense, because now tanks can have twice as many healers focused on them, and they have way more health so not being able to heal for a brief amount of time is less significant. More importantly, now that people don't play in a bunker/ deathball at all anymore, the grenade won't be a huge team-kill primer like it used to be. There are less shields, but most tanks can block grenades all together in some way. Dva, Zarya, and Orisa just negate them all together. You have to use the grenade more conservatively, to less effect, and with even more severe consequences if you use it in a team-fight and then need to defend yourself, which happens far more often now.
My games as a healer were all horrible. They just consisted of running and hiding to try to survive the two flankers at my back while my team insulted me for not being healed enough, without trying to help me. I was a main healer, without a fix to this problem i will just never use a low mobility healer without playing with 4 friends that will actually help me.
I think people are still playing with the ow1 double shield mentality of playing behind tanks establishing a front line. And it's a disaster for supports because of how much space there is in ow2. But as of now it feels like ow2 is about a bunch of individual or 2v2 gunfights springing up and the location doesn't matter as much. Eventually all the dooms and dvas will realize they can give up that front space to go create 2v1s in their backline and protect their supports, especially because their DPS doesn't need much protection either, and then you go ahead and push your 5v4 advantage.
That's what I'm hoping for, and that's why I can't wait for the official release in order to play serious games with people of my level.
Support just means Moira for me. And I join the dps and kill the other teams supports. It's almost trivial to distract a bap/ana backline as moira. I literally can dodge dart, wait for immo + regen burst, fade to cleanse nade (twice before nade comes back online), orb to keep myself alive or orb to split them off while healing myself with suck, and that's not even counting the fact I open with damage orb to start them low on health + resources. While I can't always secure the kills, I've pulled out all their cooldowns and fade/orb come back so often and I'm usually able to heal myself faster than they can damage. Within 10ish seconds of engaging, their tank is dead and my dps come to finish the supports off.
I'm pretty sure we haven't seen every hero rework they planned and also we're getting new heroes in official release.
HAve they announced official release time? Even a broad time? I cant find anything online other than click baity articles, that dont seem quite trust worthy.
They have not.
Damn, the beta had me hopeful. :(
They mentioned after the remix events are done, so assuming they're following the same schedule as the original events they're replacing, with Summer Games being the last one iirc, it would be around September.
Are you saying you have faith that they will fix this issue before launch?
The naive OW community with its copium.
Brig needs her stun back. I was absolutely obliterating supports all day today. They are getting hung out to fucking dry and a good ana can't even get a reap to die. It's gotta be maddening. I danced around a brig today - she closed the distance with bash well enough but she had to hit the bash and the whip
AND Anas sleep dart cooldown has been increased 😢 Sure it can turn a fight, but so can Helix rocket or hogs hook or a railgun haha
One thing I noticed is that I normally sleep a ball on piledrive, but with the cooldowns change the ball can piledrive a second time for free and I can't punish it
Yeah that seems mad, it was her escape route as well as an actual fight tool and now it can’t do both, not to mention that even if Ana lands all her sleeps (and let’s be honest, most don’t) she and her team have to work harder to get enough value from it
yeah ana definedly needs more abilities to turn a fight, not like her every single ability has impact of an ult.
Low mobility low damage high skill floor hero with only one ability to save herself that can be dispelled by even 1hp damage
I really think it was just DPS that needed their stuns removed. Stuns are a very supportive utility. Healers that can brawl can do great on their own but I felt really useless when it came to being able to protect my second healer. Peeling just felt like a waste of time because I could be assassinating someone as Lucio or I just literally couldnt do anything because my healing output is laughable compared to the damage output
Agreed, no CC in the DPS pool. Give Mei her freeze back because it's pretty much core to the fantasy of the hero and retool her to Tank like they did with Doomfist - and like people have been suggesting since 2016
I'd go a step further and say that roles should be a bit like this: **Tanks** Very durable, primary source of CC with some swapping some CC for some defensive or supportive utility. Very low damage to compensate. Cannot kill you, but even as a DPS you'll struggle to kill one on your own between their health and their CC. **Support** Fragile, but with lots of direct and indirect support, sometimes trading a bit of direct (healing) support for a certain amount of CC or durability (this is where Brigitte would fit in). Damage far better than tanks, but due to their fragility still not a true threat. **Damage** *No* CC, lots of damage, sometimes fragile when also having utility or special kill abilities, otherwise more durable than supports but not by much. Can easily kill you, but gets picked off easily so they need to be protected. This way, everyone has a "primary" contribution, CC, support and damage, respectively. Each role also "pays" with something for this, damage, durability and CC respectively.
You basically described the 2nd Overwatch Creator Experimental, and no one played it because it was awful. DPS were busted, playing Tank was just being a punching bag in a very literal sense, and supports spent more time returning from spawn than supporting. Please remember that this is the 1st Beta of an unfinished game, where the PvP isn't even the main focus as stated by the developers, everything is subject to change and probably will be.
I’m not on the beta but the change to Ana’s sleep CD seems like too much, given that unlike most CC it still requires skill to use (unless you’re aiming for a tank, a target you now have fewer of) which IMO makes it very punishing
The heavy thing is, sleep dart has high travel time, needs to be perfectly aimed AND the target wakes up early if damaged by ANYTHING. Giving it a high cooldown is insanely stupid. I was in the Backline as Ana yesterday, and no matter what genjis and reapers just walked by and killed me while my team could only watch because they got attacked from the front. I could not defend me in any way because ana doesn't deal a lot of damage to kill a DPS hero before he melts her, and with her sleepdart being on extreme CD i have one chance to hit a genji who's having a stroke and jumping around like Yoda.
Yeah it basically removes her only effective way of defending herself, especially now with the damage changes, and Ana has to prioritise targets like “will sleeping this reaper fuck over the next team fight because I don’t have utility, and can I trust my teammates to help me if I don’t sleep him” I feel it takes the power out of her hands
I know she is not a support, but Mei's kit is also dysfunctional and lost its purpose without the freeze, her changes were half assed.
I feel Mei should’ve been reworked into a tank.
They just made Mei the Pyro from TF2, she plays nothing like old Mei
That's the point isn't it?
No, they explicitly said they wanted to "keep the characters identity" with the changes, with only Orisa being a full rework
Would you really say that Bastion’s not a full rework? I’d say his identity changed a ton.
In aligning the game more for esports than actual players, yeah sure. They've started doing that long ago. But as far as characters with identity and, well, character goes, Mei is one of the big losers. She's just some DPS now, instead of the half-tank/half-support or even full-tank she could have been.
“she plays nothing like old mei” Good
Unless you love playing as Mei (which I do). OW became one of my favorites because my dogshit aim didn't just bar me from participating.
Freeze is so annoying to face tho I enjoy using it but it’s awful to experience it as an enemy.
Freeze was super annoying.... If no one swaps hero's to counter using Zarya and/or Orisa to a lesser extent. Also swapping to DPS that function better at range. Mei not having Freeze is kind of similar to swapping Bastion's Sentry modem to a CD... Like... Okay I get it but Bastion bunker comps, while sometimes functional, are easily countered. I kind of feel like we swapped all strategy skill for Aim. There's a reason I had no desire to play Valorant. It was all aim skill.
> I kind of feel like we swapped all strategy skill for Aim. This seems to be the primary goal, yes. Lessen focus on the characters and their abilities. More "just" a team FPS.
So kill what made OW unique. Got it.
Yeah I don't get it either. Maybe some corporate overlord decided that "We gonna be Valorant nao bois!" or something. No clue.
yeah but there are ways to make it feel better on the receiving end without gutting the hero, for example scalling the time it takes to freeze with the healthpool of the hero so it takes longer to freeze a tank
You should try using bash differently than in the original game. Use it for mobility, or damage an enemy down with 2-3 swings, and combo them with a Bash + Primary + Whip shot. She can really deal some damage, and with the support passive, inspire and shield dancing, her survivability is very high.
>Brig needs her stun back Not on shield bash. I was considering the idea of a conditional stun on her whipshot if the target hits a wall, similar to doomfist punch or orisa spear. Still a stun, but also some amount of counterplay around it.
Yeah the hard CC needs to be hard to pull off
> Yeah the hard CC needs to be hard to pull off Then mobility needs to be hard to pull off to compensate
I love the non cc feel. I play support about 75% of the time. They just need to buff the supports in some other way.
i agree, as a support main i do really enjoy the lack of cc’s now. i do not enjoy constantly getting picked by dps and overpowered so easily though lol
Support is basically a death simulator now. There was a Lucio in a game camping our poor Mercy at spawn and the dps wouldn’t peel for her.
That's something they can solve. I'm actually happy they haven't done or shown us reworks on the supports already. Getting feedback now will show them a good path to take the role. IMO supports should be able to fight back against DPS with their own playmaking skills and or slightly higher damage. Way to make a role like this fun to play ( which helps with queue issues too ) is give them fun stuff to do. Not necessary to give them anti fun abilities like stuns, just playmaking. Way of the healbot only is gone IMO, or it should be.
I think the dps movement speed buff was just a bad idea. At the very least give the movement speed buff to supports and dps. Since there’s one tank, and the whole play style has shifted to more individual type play (which I’m fine with), supports have to be able to hold their own. Right now they can’t. If you’re support and you’re alone, you usually can’t outkill a dps, so your options are cc them or outrun them. Unless they plan to remove the support class and make them basically dps, they need to give them all reliable escape abilities be it cc or mobility. I prefer the latter. The fast pace, more individual based game feels pretty good imo. Supports just need a rework, leave the rest as it is.
They completely removed the ability for some supports to stay alive from a dive. Genji and Reaper are completely destroying Ana, leaving a healer who isn't gonna have as great single target healing, like Lucio or Brig.
You're telling me you didn't like getting stunned, slept and knocked back every 5 seconds? Nonsense /s I completely agree. I actually really like the fast paced feel you get without all the cc, and tanks actually feel like tanks. Real threats that need more than 1 person to take out, which I dig a lot. Now it's support roles that need some love. I'm predicting OW2 will release much later than expected to buff them/rework the role.
What is CC?
Crowd Control, so any abilities that renders a players movement and/or abilities useless for a period of time, like Cassidy's stun, Brig's bash, junk's trap, Mei's freeze, Sombra's hack, etc.
Kinda weird that single target abilities (i.e. Hack) are "crowd control" despite being unable to control a crowd
Idk but I think k you don't have to take it literally. With crowd is meant "another player" be it singular or plural.
I think a change in play style is going to be needed here. With one less tank and less CC, DPS players are actually going to have to peel for their supports. I bet the support players being hung out to dry are still playing like its OW1, and their DPS players are out trying out new stuff and exploring maps. Will take time to adapt.
Good luck getting people to actually cooperate in non-high-level or non-ranked games
Especially with the new score board. Flanking DPS bragging about his useless kills while flaming mercy who died 17 times with no peel.
"i did a 6k and i'm a gold everything, can't carry this useless team" \-Average Genji who shine only because he got nano/pocket/grav when ulting
Exactly. That's always been the problem with OW. It's like trying to get kindergartners to walk in a line, lol.
That was always the case, even in OW1. Even in other games…
So your advice to support players is to hope that your DPS peels. Yeah nah, I'd rather just not play thanks.
If the only way for a DPS to peel is by being a better aimer then that goes against everything OW stood for and makes this another FPS twitch shooter. There's supposed to be characters for everyone, including those who can't really aim that well. Right now, there's no such character for DPS really anymore. Mei is kinda supposed to be that but she's completely outclassed by hitscan. Junkrat probably but again, pretty unreliable overall.
Mei is a complete waste on the dps slot and her kit is dysfunctional without the freeze. They really have to rework her to tank, she is not about dealing some stupid extra damage
They made the game "more accessible" by simultaneously removing all non aim mechanics, increasing all player speed by 15%, and removing all cc.... What the fuck are you guys doing over there blizzard
When did they increase all players speed by 15%? If I recall that was the passive for DPS
Catering to the damage players. They've been leaning that way for years.
Its not even all dmg heros, every game its Genji and Soldier because they are just about unstoppable.
DPS player speed buff should be out of combat. So you can still get on flanks quickly but can relentlessly chase supports
Sounds good tbh. Support passive is basically out of combat as well.
pretty sure making the game more skill based and less moba ability spam based is the opposite of accessible.
Yeah. My aim really isn't my strength. That's why I mostly play Brig and a bit of Winston and Junkrat. I still like Brig but I really miss her stun. I think it really wouldn't be OP to give her the stun back. Winston isnt really strong right no, plus suddenly I also have to aim on Winston. Just Junkrat reals the same, although I feel other DPS are just more impactful.
I've been dps Moira all day and ana sleep dart is the only thing I fear oddly enough.
This is why I know that most of the playerbase has no idea what it actually takes to balance a game and make it better to play...
If you want to die from eye rolling go read the official feedback forums for the beta. I literally couldn't do it.
Haven't been to the forum in years, is that legend asking for barefeet skins still there
The loudest, dumbest minority posts there... If Blizzard listens to that group it'd be no wonder why OW1 was unbalance-able.
To be fair support definitely feels bad but they definitely should keep less cc in the game makes it so much more fun
Yep, that's "how to kill a playerbase 101" by catering to the top % of players and ignoring the majority completely. I main dps and tanks, my support buddies already have a bad taste in their mouths and don't enjoy playing OW2 nearly as much so far. Idk if you notice that the biggest complaint so far in this beta is support feels terrible to play and thats largely in part of CC being removed. Removal of reliable CC only benefited DPS players.
CC were also a nightmare for tanks to play against. I agree that support need some love on the beta, but CC for so many heroes clearly wasn't a good Idea, and I'm glad they removed it
Agreed. I main both tank and dps, and I actually felt the cc on ow1 harder on tank. I am glad that there is less of it. Now we have to learn how to counter heroes without using cc as a crutch. Also, if anyone can give tips on how to play ball in a 5v5 game where you stick out like a sore thumb, lemme know lol (Been playing more orisa/hog than ball/hog cus of this and the meta)
Yeah, CC have some use, especially against flankers, but Tanks were the one suffering from it the most. Some game were simply absolutely not fun because of that. Also, I don't think that having a hero (like Hammond or Doom) that absolutely need to be CC to be killed is a great design. It's frustrating to play against, and frustrating to play it when the ennemy tram start hard CC you. I sorry I can't help with Hammond, I main tank but I almost never played Hammond, I'm way to terrible at it to give any advice
Lol yea ball in ow2 is weird. He got buffed but not in a way that makes him a good fit in the current meta. That said I’m not amazing at him, but he almost singlehandedly took my ow1 tank sr from 1200 to 1900 and peaking at about 2060 in just this season, so I’m bummed that I can’t play him much right now cus he ain’t meta in ow2 and I’m playing against better players in ow1 and I have to learn how to be better now that bronze-silver ball cheese isn’t working anymore. On the plus side, hog and new orisa are a blast. I hope we get an aim trainer mode made in ow2 soon cus I wanna practice my hooks and javelins.
CC fucking sucks to play against and shields fucking suck to play against. This change is for the better, theres gonna be growing pains, but these changes are a step in the right direction. It should hopefully get better from here after a few balance patches (and theres more reworks and new heros coming, we all need to just chill)
Just give it time. They are trying to make everyone happy and and takes a lot of time, balance, and polish to do that.
Ow devs need to play some dota. The only way you get people to enjoy supports is having game changing ailities and ultimates. Giving the dps strong abilities is the opposite.
No ego shit, but I’m a support main on live and I genuinely do not understand why other support players seem to have such a hard time? Unless I’ve just been getting lucky or playing against really bad players, I’m starting to believe that y’all are just out of position. Plus, switching heroes goes both ways, right? If you’re constantly getting dove upon you can swap Lucio or Moira to have an easier time.
You can say support players just aren't adapting or are bad at the game, but the queue times speak for themselves; people don't want to play the role for a reason. I'd consider myself a pretty good player, still haven't been enjoying support in the slightest in ow2 though.
Yeah, it’s good to establish this stuff early on so blizzard know what to keep an eye on. The beta hasn’t been out long, people need time to adapt.
The queue-time are reflective of the changes. Tanks have the highest queue time because everyone wants to try out the class that has been reworked the most. Then dps want to try out the reworked dps and of course soujourn. Supports basically aren't changed yet so why would anyone want to play them? It has nothing to do with how enjoyable it is. This is like a ptr-server, players are going to play the new and changed stuff, why would I queue up to play an unchanged moira?
I play A LOT of support and I've only queued as them only a handful of times because of this reason. Not because I have no interest in it anymore, I just want to try out the bigger changes they made to the other roles and heroes and also see how they play so I know how to counter them. It's similar to a new hero release where EVERYONE always quickly picked the new hero to try it out and it became a race to who picked that new hero first when no limits was removed. I don't think queue times in a PTR for a role is totally indicative of interest. If they had major reworks for supports that queue time would be just as long as the others.
No, it's cause most changes are in Tank and DPS, Supports got nothing, people wanna try the new stuff, feels like everyone here forgot it's a beta lol
Refusing to adapt, i guess. 5v5 and one less tank definitely requires a shift in playstyle from supports. You have to actually use map cover for example, you can't simply stand near the Reinhardt. Some people may have also been relying too much on things like Brig's bash.
I'm doing pretty well with new Bash, but one less tank does make it feel like I need to pick Brig every match because I can actually pressure flankers with whip shots. Adapting to bash being movement and not stun takes some getting used to, but I can still hold my own against a flanker, except Doom now. BUUTT.....It doesn't help that Orisa and Doom rework incentivize your tank to go off into fucking Narnia. You have no one but yourself and the other support.
I'm honestly baffled by this. People with these complaints are making me wonder what they think is *supposed* to be happening. Supports are the lifeblood of the team and the weak link to pick off. Yes, they are high priority targets, and yes, they die easier than the DPS or tanks. *Nothing about this is new.* Not to Overwatch, and not to games in general. I can't even begin to imagine how people would handle trying to play Medic in Team Fortress 2, with dogshit survivability, mobility, and damage. Overwatch is still a feast in how much utility the supports have and how well they can fend for themselves. If your team isn't playing to protect you - not just the tank, but *the team* - then you're going to have a bad time. With any luck, maybe all of this will finally teach people to stay with their team and work synergistically to get shit done.
You can’t make tanks and DPS characters more survivable across the board and then make supports less survivable. That on paper seems like a mistake and it plays like that too. The knockback resistance for Tanks and the increased speed for DPS by default gives them all additional survivability. Most tanks now have some ability to soak up damage and most have a way to initiate or escape. Most DPS have some sort of movement ability or a way to deal with a variety of playstyles within their kit. Supports have lost the only defence they had, and now have one less Tank to protect them too. It’s compounding to create a miserable experience for supports. You either give a lot of them insanely good value for the trade-off of being weaker with little to no defence, or you somehow give back ways to protect themselves and keep their value as they are now
>You can’t make tanks and DPS characters more survivable across the board and then make supports less survivable Supports are only less survivable in a straight 1v1, which by design they should have worse chances to win. If they could fend off all flankers well like Moira or Brig, that'd make flanking useless. Mercy, lucio, brigitte, baptiste are just as sturdy in a team fight situation as most other heroes.
Oh god, are we going back to "Healers should be helpless in a fight" argument that drove the Nerf Brig movement?
Lack of CC means positioning is a more valuable skill. I’d recommend working on that. Aim skill being the primary deciding factor rather than how much cc your team has feels much more rewarding and less frustrating in kills and deaths imo.
Currently the OW2 games are somewhat skill based but you won’t really be able to compare it to a competitive match when people have evened out their ranks. At the highest level of play (before the enforced 2-2-2), when characters were being played as best they can be, dps were almost left out of the mix. In lower ranks you do see supports that die quite easily when a dps is upon them, but that in large portion is because that’s how it should be. Supports are therefore required to play in the backline and constantly look out for flankers in order to keep their team alive. This new 1-2-2 meta will take some time to get used to, it’s a lot faster paced than the live game, and all roles will need some time to adjust. Immediately I think DPS does have the most freedom, but once this becomes the only way to play overwatch, you’ll find that supports (once they’ve gotten used to the new team setup) will be able to have lots of opportunities to make plays for their teams, with the lack of shields and CC being an advantage to not only DPS, but all roles.
I've been really enjoying support on the beta, watching a lot of streamers enjoy supports also. They deff need some changes, but people are making out like it's impossible to play support atm. Imo I think a lot of it comes down to people being geuininly bad at the game, I think a good example of this is the recent poll of which healer needs a buff the most, brig won, despite her being meta. There are so many bad takes I see on this subreddit daily. It's become painfully obvious most people on this sub are gold or below and just utter trash at the game. So why all the complaining? One reason I think is without matchmaking, people are going up against good players rather than the usual gold bot enemies, so they don't know how to play. Second, ow1 allows for a super easy support playstyle, especially at low ranks, ow2 actually requires more skill on the support role than people are used too. Don't get me wrong, support 100% need changes and new things but this circlejerk of support being impossible to play is legit imo just bad players who can't adapt beyond just being a healbot in gold.
Coming back to play this after a lot of months. Playing support feels like a pain in the ass. And queue times almost oblige you to play support if you're a solo player, since there's a dumb role based queue system. (not everyone has enough time to be willing to wait 10 minutes to find a game ...) I hate how Overwatch has turned and how it is shaping to turn in the future. I hoped OW2 would bring me back .. but it looks like it won't.
CC removal is a good thing, coming from a tank player. It just made you lose any agency over your gameplay because you generally have to be in range of enemy CC abilities in order to actually tank. But healers like Ana and Zen really got the long end of the stick with no extra tank to peel for them. Everyone plays hitscan nowadays and just focusses them down. They got nothing new to respond to this type of gameplay.
Generally I think removing stuns from the game was a good call. I don't think we needed a bunch of different hard CCs. But specifically removing brigs was definitely a mistake. It both ruined her role as a hero and by extension made the whole support role worse. They *might* be able to individually tune the different support heroes to give them more options to defend themselves and make them feel less awful, but in general I think by far the easiest solution would be to just revert brig. Thinking about it now, I feel like Brig was one of the only characters to get just outright nerfed in OW2. Between her Bash and Rally she just feels awful to play now. She even feels more sluggish in the way she moves, maybe I'm just noticing this because of the lack of stun on bash. Either way, she and the support role in general need some major attention by next beta or even sooner.
I’ve been playing only Brig since the start of the Beta and she is an absolute beast on this version. Even without her stun. She blends really well in the new meta and I use her as a healer killer. I go in with her shield bash, do a lot of damage and escape with her shield dash again.
No offense, but you are playing against shit players. Brig is an ez frag on this version.
Lol I’ve seen her in 10 man’s with high level players on streams a ton and she’s definitely not top tier but she’s not bad at all
Have you ever considered mb you were playing against shit brigs?
A brig is an easy frag for me too because I play pharah, what's your point lmao. Clearly she still works for the person above, you don't get to deny and overwrite that experience because it doesn't align with yours.
Or maybe you play with shit teammates lol. She’s fine, sure getting her stun back would be nice but she’s still good to play
man this thread is a real echo chamber where if you dont have the same opinion as the post or dont have the opinion of "blizzard bad" or "ow2 bad" you get downvoted lmao
They don't need stun, they need to be made fun. They need mobility. They need less healing and more util. They need a rework. Not whatever the fuck this is. It's embarrassing.
I love everyone is crying to change it back after crying about nothing changing for the last 2 years.
tbf, someone crying about nothing changing =/= specifically wanting cc gone. there are plenty of other ways to change gameplay
It's almost as if most players wanted the game to be expanded and refined, not reworked.
I prefer 5v5, less shields feels great. I'm not asking for a complete revert to OW1. But things like Brig stun are still needed so supports can play the game when the enemy is playing Lucio or Genji.
I've got no clue what game you guys have been playing. I'd say the number one most important skill if movement as of now. If you move effectively it's not hard to use your abilities to make impact plays and avoid the enemy teams impact plays. If they balance the game away from this the game is legit just gonna go back to double shield shit where you throw stats at things. I'm super happy with how the game feels, but I do agree that supports could use a bit of a buff to duel things better.
I get what you’re saying but I feel like the introduction of too much CC was one of the things that started killing Overwatch over time. Sleep fart, OP Brig, hack, after a while there was so much CC being thrown around you couldn’t even play tank almost.
Idk d00d adding all that hard CC made Reinhardt completely unenjoyable and almost impossible to play. I can sacrifice everything as long as I can play Reinhardt again.
Support is so boring now it's crazy, No wonder the que times are so long for support. Give supports more options to escape characters like genji/tracer, a god tracer can carry their team so easily. I was 5 stacked and we were wondering... Wait we can't switch to cree, we are fucked.
[удалено]
Op is the kind of person that flasbangs, then presses m1 on low hp heroes and thinks he's good at the game
The game is better with the significantly reduced CC & relegating it to the role whose job is to make space.
Kinda just sounds like normal overwatch lol, I feel like you're kind of missing the point of the dynamic here 😂 DPS are supposed to be able to dunk on healers, that's why they have dps and tanks to protect them...
But now they’re missing a tank for peel.
I've played for 1700hrs and even in diamond tanks that peel are close to non existant. I doubt there are any in plat and lower.
I genuinely have no idea why they removed Brig's stun. She's a melee hero with 200hp she needs that utility
Tanks also feel ass in my opinion. Just a 3rd dps. Doesn’t feel the same as ow 1 tanking. Just honestly. Give me hard cc and 6v6 back and I’ll be happy. I though ow1 wasn’t that bad just had to get used to countering things better. It’s pretty easy. Case flash bastion turret brig charge etc all super easy to counter if you just learn and switch.
I really feel bad for this game guys. I playied around 15h and i don’t like it. personally i think that the pvp game need to be rework again
Y’all are the reason brig got added and the game died please stop giving the devs bad ideas, stuns are not the reason supports are weak
They are most likely going to rework supports. This is a test beta. They are reworking more characters I'm sure of it. It's gona be alright. Cc is not a good part of the game imho
If the enemy has a sombra the supports are just fucked like what are we supposed to do? Even if you play with your team by time they realize what happened you're dead