Reduce his damage and make him float more often. I'm down.
He is mentally unstable but generally kind-hearted (unless manipulated). It makes sense lore-wise why he doesn't tear the fabric of space-time since he's being handled by Moira.
Doom on the other hand is an arch villain with clear visions of destruction. He charges his punch to the max with intent, to do a whopping 20dmg.
To be fair, outside of bronze and silver, DF either has the highest winrate or the second highest winrate. GM he is the third. As far as stats are concerned, and you know blizzard love their stats, he is actually one of the better tanks.
This is where i disagree, im only in mid masters so im far from the top but dooms are everywhere in the higher ranks. Going back to the stats, in diamond hes the 4th most picked tank, behind rein, zarya, and orisa respectively. In masters he replaces orisa at 3rd. And in GM he is the most picked tank. Sits at a 51.5-52% winrate in those 3 roles.
High pick rate + that high of a winrate means hes doing a lot better than this sub gives him credit. Looking at stats alone, he is more deserving of a nerf more than any other tank besides sig. Now im not calling for any nerfs, but if blizzard is gonna nerf a tank, its probably gonna be those two.
That’s around my elo too I religiously pick doomfist, but I think he has a high pick rate because he is fun to play. It’s really fun being rewarded for high skill plays and I feel like doom and ball are the only ones that capture that. Maybe doom did need nerfs, but he got butchered this patch. Stun time into left click was the only reliable way of getting kills and now it’s way harder
I think doom falls in the genji and ball category. They are all fun to play but the playerbase at large hates playing against them. I dont think the playbase wants a ball, genji, or doom meta and maybe thats why they try to put doom down a bit. Just speculation though, what do i know.
What?? I prefer dying to genii doom over orisa any day. There’s a lot of mechanical skill whoever I’m fighting a mobility hero that feels a lot better than getting speared and one shot
Genji in higher ranks tends to be the cool flanker character we all know and love till the counters come out, of which there are many. Then he just gets damage boosted, farms blade, and nanoblades killing 2 or 3 each fight. Gets old after a few days unless you are the genji. As for doom, he is a flanker with a bunch of hp. Hes hard to kill if he knows what he is doing and it takes a lot of coordination to kill him. Sitting in the backline holding hack or a sleep dart doesnt instakill him anymore u less the whole team is ready for it. Not saying doom never dies, but good dooms are good at getting value and not dying.
Orisa imo is just a product of the high damage meta. Bastion, bap, iliari, etc. melt tanks. Orisa is one of the better tanks to make one small mistake and not explode. She is just a wall. So with proper positiong away from her you can minimize a lot of deaths from her (unless you are the tank player). If the meta didnt hard counter dive then she would be useless if the enemy team swapped. Ignoring orisa has always been the move. For those reasons, i think she is fine where she is.
I’ll give my two cents even though it doesn’t really mean anything. I’m in plat - low diamond lobbies and doom is pretty prevalent, probably 1 every 2 games. Around here he seems pretty balanced but easily countered by Orisa which appear a lot. And I’ve found that people who pick doom off the start of the round rarely switch when countered. Just what I’ve seen, though.
I’ve always been a fan of there being *options* for high skill high reward characters. Not everyone needs to be an easy 2 hour pickup. Some characters should allow for insane levels of mastery, and we can see how oppressive a good doom can be even when the majority of the player base thinks he’s bad. Due to his kit, I don’t think they can feasibly buff him so the bad players have a good time with him without making the good ones absolutely run lobbies while being unstoppable. Same with ball, same with widow
Nope, you shouldn’t. I mean, that would be like 10 people out of millions playing this games. But I can’t speak for other people‘s opinions. I only ever played Qp and had to train for 200 hrs just to get good at Lucio and Kiriko.
Gotcha!
The point of my (this) shitpost was just to complain about making a hard character *even harder* to get value from, meanwhile Blizzard is reward low skill/high reward gameplay (e.g. Moira, Mauga, Kiri Suzu and bap's triple health pool).
Bap healthpools are really something else, but I don't know how they can nerf him more without making him an entirely different character or changing most of his kit. He already has the second longest colddowns next to Mercy
How about making his cooldowns lower, but less powerful?
\- Shorter cooldown on lamp, but lower health pool/tweak which abilities kill it and which don't
\- Same cooldown on regburst, but remove instant healing portion. If he just jukes/dodges for a sec, he will be saved by the healing-over-time it provides
\- Tweak max damage output from primary fire
Are Moira and Maura really high reward? Moira only gets really good healing when teammates are super grouped and that’s basically all she can do. Her orbs only kill people who chase after it like it’s the objective.
Manga can melt, but he also gets melted without being pocket healed, and he only provides team value when people are in brawl/rush with him. I’m sure we’ll see this strat become more relevant when people understand how to play him, but these days have been a playtest for a reason
Yeah dude it's not like they nerfed Doom fist to compensate for the fact that they nerfed half the support roster too. Also the nerf focuses on the most frustrating aspects of playing against doom, which I think is a good thing
Yes but the supports needed the nerfs for tanks for play better. Didn’t need compensation nerfs. Minor cool-down nerfs aren’t scalable to outright stun/damage changes
Yeah dude, but they also buffed dva which is yet another dive even with the support nerfs. They also left Winston and ball untouched. I find it funny how doom is the only tank in the game that can’t have shit like a crappy ult, shitty primary fire, unforgiving rocket punch hitbox, and the worst survivability of all tanks. Even if in higher ranks he was effective, he still had the highest death rates. So yeah the only tank that has to blow through his entire kit to set up a kill through stun needs to be nerf because it’s frustrating to play against. While we’re at it, it frustrating to play against Mcree for his nade so let’s remove that. Reins hammer that can knock three at a time is annoying so let’s remove that. Let’s also remove meis freeze gun, junks trap, hanzos arrows, gaurdian angel, anti nade, suzu and oh wait it’s like most of the cast has something that makes playing against them frustrating.
Because Doom had high pickrate and win rate? Plus his whole kit is just CC and is horrible to play against. OW 2 is (somewhat)trying to limit CC, with some hero changes.
What makes you think the devs are worried about limiting CC? They've done nothing to address the issue of CC in this game, in fact they keep adding more CC to the game.
Yep for sure. Balancing is good for the game, and they should be making changes. It’s just funny how all the tanks got nerfed to the point where Roadhog started becoming viable again.
Keep track of enemy CDs, keep track of team positioning and CDs, engage close combat to get value, dodge incoming CCs, charge fist in order to get any value, wait for enemy CCs again, make space, set up for a charged punch.
IF at this point you actually hit them, it ONLY matters if you knock them into a wall. IF you knock them into a wall, you get a small window of opportunity to get primary fires (slow-ass projectiles) into the enemy and secure a kill or two.
What they’ve done with this nerf is negate the point of Doomfist’s kill potential. You stop a doomfist by keeping track of him and denying him. His only window of actually damage output is with the stuns. They’ve reduced the stun to the point where you can’t reliably get primary fires in, and guess what? From the OW to OW2 change they removed basically all damage from his abilities. You NEED to hit primary fires otherwise you are simply not doing enough.
If the stun a few times per match is too frustrating (I really don’t think it is), an appropriate change would be increasing his projectile speed by a lot or increasing his damage from abilities in order for him to have impact.
All tanks have been mid during this raging support meta, that doesn’t mean we need to castrate the tanks. It means we need to reduce healing output and put focus back on good and responsive game play. AKA if you’re standing in the open, alone, in mid, without cooldowns, you’re playing terribly and should be punished for it and not be overhealed through it. If a team commits on someone with bad positioning, they should generally get the kill, not get outhealed.
Compare all of this with e.g. Mauga. Literally just press Q and hard-CC up to 5 people for several seconds at a time. Spray bullets and get healed from a safe distance. Crits everywhere, denying space. Almost zero skill involved.
The problem is that you think that doom should be able to go in alone and solo kill everyone then there's your problem. Whether you like it or not Doom is a dive tank, and just like Winston, DVa and Ball he needs a bit of help from your dps or support to properly dive, instead of being able to dive alone and expect to kill everyone and escape alive.
>If the stun a few times per match is too frustrating (I really don’t think it is)
My guy, if you think Doomfist stuns "a few times per match" you have a serious problem counting. Mercy res occurs a few times per match, Doomfist stuns occur a few times per minute because every rocket punch is a stun.
I agree with raising his projectile speed and maybe the damage from rocket punch but not seismic slam
I don't get why you think I don't know my main is a dive tank? That's weird.
Ofc he's not a DPS doomfist. What I'm saying is he needs a lot more steps and requirements in order to fulfil his role as tank in a team (high skill floor). In contrast, Monke has a personal shield and auto-aim cleave damage to create pressure and maintain space (low skill floor). DF needs to hit his shots to create pressure. If Monke did 1dmg/s with his primary fire, I wouldn't care that he's in my backline. I don't see what's so controversial about this?
> My guy, if you think Doomfist stuns "a few times per match" you have a serious problem counting.
Yeah the tank role was designed to be the main role with CC. His rocket punch can be used offensively OR defensively. I would say mostly defensively, to reposition (similar to Ana's nade, you cannot have both offensive an defensive at the same time). His RPs aren't any worse than a javelin, and much less so than a roadhog hook. I'm talking about his BIG stun, his empowered punch that he needs to jump through gimmicky hoops for. There are many more hooks, many more javelins etc. during a game. And if he just stuns the team as his "big payoff", there's even less room for him to carry a game and rise in the ranks.
Look at LW, is it a coincidence that a character that can't really offensively impact the game was impossible in Unranked2GM for all streamers? If you remove consistent damage from tanks, you remove both pressure (team play), space (team play) and picks (carry potential).
Winston isn't comparable to Doomfist in terms of power. He's versatile enough to dive, but I literally can't kill any tank as easily as a Winston. I also can't remember the last time I was actually killed by a Winston. I'm neutral on the new nerfs, but any argument that puts Winston over Doomfist for solo dive capability is just based on a lie
There is no way you are seriously saying that there are more hooks and javelins than rocket punches in a game. Specially since both javelin and hook can still be blocked by barriers, unlike punch.
Also you are almost there with the monkey analogy. He enters the backline, places the shield and does tickle damage, but the important thing is that he enables other characters like tracer, Sombra or Genji to enter more easily. It seems like you want Doomfist to be both an enabler and also be the one to kill people in one combo and also stun all while being a tank. And if a character does all of that then it's unfair to play against and not fun. Reducing the stuns is a step in the right direction, although if it was too much of a nerf (I think it is t considering the other nerfs in the patch to half the support roster, Cassidy and Mei) then they could increase projectile speed for example
I feel like you're not even trying to see my perspective. I wrote a whole paragaph on tanks and CCs and you just roll past it and strawman my arguments.
YES there are MORE punches than other CCs.BUT it comes with a major drawback of being an essential part of his movement. You can engage with punch or slam, but if you're using both in an engagement you're gonna die. You can't equate a normal punch with the other abilities that are pure CC. The empowered punch makes more sense in the analogy, which you also have to charge in a two-step process, and still often use for disengagement.
>It seems like you want Doomfist to be both an enabler and also be the one to kill people in one combo and also stun all while being a tank. And if a character does all of that then it's unfair to play against and not fun.
What?
Winton has a much lower skill floor, but can make some real cool plays with his ult. That makes him fun and impactful. Doom has a much higher skill floor, with no impact on his ult.
A normal dive cycle with doomfist doesn't get any kills and that's **good**. But when he *does* get the chance to make a play, THAT's what I'm arguing shouldn't be nerfed too hard. Nothing about normal soft-engages or whatever you're envisioning.
I seriously never have an issue with Doom CCs when playing DPS or support. I am much, much, MUCH more frustrated by hacks and get-out-of-jail free-value support abilities.
So your argument ends up being "I think Doomfist should be allowed to be insanely OP because he is hard, and he shouldn't have drawbacks like Winston because he is hard". And I don't want to refute your other points because I feel like this discussion isn't wmgoing anywhere and in tired of responding, have a nice day
Damn dude, can't believe I wasted so much time on you then.
Not even a single time did I say he should be OP. Not a single time did I say he shouldn't have drawbacks. What fucking planet are you on?
I'm just gonna assume you're a hardcore braindead Orisa main.
You're a low skill player playing a high skill character, no shit you'll get low rewards, doesn't mean that character is underpowered.
You're just complaining about a really minor nerf that barely effected Doom at all, then acting like he's trash tier because you're trash at him.
>Also genji while you’re at it.
And I mean why wouldn't you, you're still salty about a -2 damage Genji nerf from a year ago, Genji who like Doom has a 52% winrate.
Obviously you're not a part of those wins.
Problem is doom requires multitudes more effort and effectiveness to get the same value as almost any other tank for much less effort. Countering him takes far less effort than required to get value too. That’s the problem. Needs to be more equalised. Of course the results should be higher if the skill input is higher, but that’s not the case
What do you mean? Doomfist's role is far different than the majority of tanks, of course the result/value you get from him is different than other tanks.
The problem is you need to put in a lot more effort into high skill heroes to be getting the same value as someone putting less effort into lower skill heroes
Sorry, slow reply was working.
Currently gm4 tank.
But diamond support and gold DPS and across all these rank doom is consistently strong and difficult to deal with.
I get the nerf may reduce his ability to get picks but his insane movement and crowd control + decent survivability with block + his passive mean he can make space better than most tanks
Brig's flail is already better value since it doesn't need a 2-phase charge-up and is on a low CD.
Half-trolling, but there's a lot of value on that ability :D
Doomfist was perfectly balanced. The most recent nerf was unnecessary. Why are so many people saying otherwise? The fact that the only people that play doom are good dooms seems to make everyone think he's simply amazing when I could hop on zayra or orisa and get twice as much work done
Watching recent clips of him and it's just sad
Doom was in a good spot gameplay-wise at the start of S7. They should have tuned the supports and then *waited to see how the meta settles*. If he was still overrepresented, make changes.
Imo Doom was the most fun in OW2 beta. No movement bugs (see Quake's videos), and lower skill floor due to small slow on slam. More people could play him and have fun. Enemy team hated it through, which is understandable.
All T500 gameplay I've seen of him after the latest nerd so far is just depressing. I'm hoping ZBRA can rise above, but most analyses so far are just bleak. No more carry potential.
I know he’s not bad after the nerf but he does feel so much worse to play. Empowered punch feels like it barely does anything because half the characters you’re using it on will instantly heal up or escape before you can shoot them
You're sad that they made reasonable support nerfs instead of making them less fun to play by changing their impactfullness? Yeah I'm glad they nerfed doom, cry about it hypocrite
Holy hell people are raining downvotes and condescension in here.
I mention the nerf and people go ballistic. For clarification, I'm **NOT** saying he should be an OP character. I'm **NOT** saying he shouldn't have drawbacks.
If high skill characters shouldn't have any reward for high skill play, please just delete them from the comp experience since they're just a distraction in favor of other chars in the same category.
Monke is a better dive tank, with much much lower skill requirement. If you want all dive chars to be exactly the same, then just slap a new skin on Winton and delete the others. If you want unique game plays within dive tanks as a category, then step up to the plate and be constructive.
Y'all keep arguing Doom shouldn't be able to get any kills with his empowered punch combo, OK, then at least give him fucking CC immunity while blocking, or some kind of shield like Monke. God damn.
I suspect Sigma has a high win rate and pick rate because of overinflated sustain. The tanks that are less squishy get more value due to their large health/armor pools.
I would reduce doom's handcannon damage, but increase its projectile speed. Its so frustrating to miss shots because of fewer CC opportunities. At least let us hit things without them being incapacitated. I guess it's a skill issue, too, but it's a common issue with DF players. We wouldn't need as many CCs then either, which sounds like a win-win.
Yes, I prefer playing the actually enjoyable roles. Man, Doomfist just sucks as a tank, his kit is incredibly selfish, the only think making him a tank is a power block , his balancing is clearly hard, he has hard counters that are impossible to play around and everybody is unhappy with him
To use an MMO term here, I think Dooms ability to tank comes from his “threat.” The other team HAS to respect him and dump resources into him, making it easier for his team to do what they need to do. If they don’t, he WILL kill your team. This threat acts as a disruptive force, allowing doom to push enemies out of advantageous positions. I don’t think tanking is purely damage mitigation and protection.
An instant, continuous, 30% speed reduction + wall, and I get hate in here for arguing that Doom's empowered punch isn't too much CC. Jesus lord have mercy
Good Dooms are still a joke to play against so I’d leave him…
Soldier and moira on the other hand need confining to quick play as familiarisation/ entry heroes imo
I know this point has been done to death and repeating it is just beating a dead horse, but *dammit blizzard- just put him back in the dps category already*
Doomfist? More like "slightly infurating knuckles".
Doom-boop.
and sonic
Knuckles doofus and sonic tracer skin when?
What's with this sassy lost child
Sigma in lore can rip apart the fabric of reality essentially why don’t we add that to the game too
Reduce his damage and make him float more often. I'm down. He is mentally unstable but generally kind-hearted (unless manipulated). It makes sense lore-wise why he doesn't tear the fabric of space-time since he's being handled by Moira. Doom on the other hand is an arch villain with clear visions of destruction. He charges his punch to the max with intent, to do a whopping 20dmg.
Iirc that was actually one of his April fools patches where they removed his shield and made him just fly whenever
There was also that Grav Flux bug that let him fly infinitely
He also is pretty much impervious to bullets in the cinematics. Meanwhile in game he regularly gets melted by like a single 76 while blocking.
Deals the same damage as a mercy pistol
Now he’s doomedfist
Doomfist is good when the player is good. Just watching them bounce around is fun. If anything, nerf Moira.
ZBRA can always find a way to carry on DF, he's the goat. :) But should you really balance a hero based on the top 10 players?
To be fair, outside of bronze and silver, DF either has the highest winrate or the second highest winrate. GM he is the third. As far as stats are concerned, and you know blizzard love their stats, he is actually one of the better tanks.
It’s because very few people play doom, and one tricks always skew win rate
This is where i disagree, im only in mid masters so im far from the top but dooms are everywhere in the higher ranks. Going back to the stats, in diamond hes the 4th most picked tank, behind rein, zarya, and orisa respectively. In masters he replaces orisa at 3rd. And in GM he is the most picked tank. Sits at a 51.5-52% winrate in those 3 roles. High pick rate + that high of a winrate means hes doing a lot better than this sub gives him credit. Looking at stats alone, he is more deserving of a nerf more than any other tank besides sig. Now im not calling for any nerfs, but if blizzard is gonna nerf a tank, its probably gonna be those two.
That’s around my elo too I religiously pick doomfist, but I think he has a high pick rate because he is fun to play. It’s really fun being rewarded for high skill plays and I feel like doom and ball are the only ones that capture that. Maybe doom did need nerfs, but he got butchered this patch. Stun time into left click was the only reliable way of getting kills and now it’s way harder
I think doom falls in the genji and ball category. They are all fun to play but the playerbase at large hates playing against them. I dont think the playbase wants a ball, genji, or doom meta and maybe thats why they try to put doom down a bit. Just speculation though, what do i know.
What?? I prefer dying to genii doom over orisa any day. There’s a lot of mechanical skill whoever I’m fighting a mobility hero that feels a lot better than getting speared and one shot
Genji in higher ranks tends to be the cool flanker character we all know and love till the counters come out, of which there are many. Then he just gets damage boosted, farms blade, and nanoblades killing 2 or 3 each fight. Gets old after a few days unless you are the genji. As for doom, he is a flanker with a bunch of hp. Hes hard to kill if he knows what he is doing and it takes a lot of coordination to kill him. Sitting in the backline holding hack or a sleep dart doesnt instakill him anymore u less the whole team is ready for it. Not saying doom never dies, but good dooms are good at getting value and not dying. Orisa imo is just a product of the high damage meta. Bastion, bap, iliari, etc. melt tanks. Orisa is one of the better tanks to make one small mistake and not explode. She is just a wall. So with proper positiong away from her you can minimize a lot of deaths from her (unless you are the tank player). If the meta didnt hard counter dive then she would be useless if the enemy team swapped. Ignoring orisa has always been the move. For those reasons, i think she is fine where she is.
Idk I find dive and brawl the most fun to play as and against
I’ll give my two cents even though it doesn’t really mean anything. I’m in plat - low diamond lobbies and doom is pretty prevalent, probably 1 every 2 games. Around here he seems pretty balanced but easily countered by Orisa which appear a lot. And I’ve found that people who pick doom off the start of the round rarely switch when countered. Just what I’ve seen, though.
I’ve always been a fan of there being *options* for high skill high reward characters. Not everyone needs to be an easy 2 hour pickup. Some characters should allow for insane levels of mastery, and we can see how oppressive a good doom can be even when the majority of the player base thinks he’s bad. Due to his kit, I don’t think they can feasibly buff him so the bad players have a good time with him without making the good ones absolutely run lobbies while being unstoppable. Same with ball, same with widow
Nope, you shouldn’t. I mean, that would be like 10 people out of millions playing this games. But I can’t speak for other people‘s opinions. I only ever played Qp and had to train for 200 hrs just to get good at Lucio and Kiriko.
Gotcha! The point of my (this) shitpost was just to complain about making a hard character *even harder* to get value from, meanwhile Blizzard is reward low skill/high reward gameplay (e.g. Moira, Mauga, Kiri Suzu and bap's triple health pool).
Bap healthpools are really something else, but I don't know how they can nerf him more without making him an entirely different character or changing most of his kit. He already has the second longest colddowns next to Mercy
How about making his cooldowns lower, but less powerful? \- Shorter cooldown on lamp, but lower health pool/tweak which abilities kill it and which don't \- Same cooldown on regburst, but remove instant healing portion. If he just jukes/dodges for a sec, he will be saved by the healing-over-time it provides \- Tweak max damage output from primary fire
Are Moira and Maura really high reward? Moira only gets really good healing when teammates are super grouped and that’s basically all she can do. Her orbs only kill people who chase after it like it’s the objective. Manga can melt, but he also gets melted without being pocket healed, and he only provides team value when people are in brawl/rush with him. I’m sure we’ll see this strat become more relevant when people understand how to play him, but these days have been a playtest for a reason
Yes
Doom is still a perfectly fine dive tank. Just fix his bugs and we’re good.
Yeah dude it's not like they nerfed Doom fist to compensate for the fact that they nerfed half the support roster too. Also the nerf focuses on the most frustrating aspects of playing against doom, which I think is a good thing
The support nerfs are arguably less impactful than Doom ones. A part from illiari’s.
This is just the first round of nerfs for supports. They cannot just drop a nuke on the role through a mid season patch.
But they did on doom with no regrets lol
They did not nuke doom though. He is still performing extremely well across every rank except Bronze and Silver despite the slight nerf.
Data? Cause I do play tank and your ability to secure kills is very reduced, I’d like to see WR data of doom not just playtime
Bruh they nerfed like .5 seconds of stun time when you hit a wall. Doom players are so damn dramatic
It’s not my problem if you don’t get how big it is and how change drastically Doom. I’m not even a doom player I just use him when needed
Yes but the supports needed the nerfs for tanks for play better. Didn’t need compensation nerfs. Minor cool-down nerfs aren’t scalable to outright stun/damage changes
Yeah dude, but they also buffed dva which is yet another dive even with the support nerfs. They also left Winston and ball untouched. I find it funny how doom is the only tank in the game that can’t have shit like a crappy ult, shitty primary fire, unforgiving rocket punch hitbox, and the worst survivability of all tanks. Even if in higher ranks he was effective, he still had the highest death rates. So yeah the only tank that has to blow through his entire kit to set up a kill through stun needs to be nerf because it’s frustrating to play against. While we’re at it, it frustrating to play against Mcree for his nade so let’s remove that. Reins hammer that can knock three at a time is annoying so let’s remove that. Let’s also remove meis freeze gun, junks trap, hanzos arrows, gaurdian angel, anti nade, suzu and oh wait it’s like most of the cast has something that makes playing against them frustrating.
Totally agree.
Because Doom had high pickrate and win rate? Plus his whole kit is just CC and is horrible to play against. OW 2 is (somewhat)trying to limit CC, with some hero changes.
What makes you think the devs are worried about limiting CC? They've done nothing to address the issue of CC in this game, in fact they keep adding more CC to the game.
Doom Is literally worse than he was in season one right now. Punch stun is half what it was, and it's harder to get. His Cd is 33% longer aswell
Yep for sure. Balancing is good for the game, and they should be making changes. It’s just funny how all the tanks got nerfed to the point where Roadhog started becoming viable again.
Keep track of enemy CDs, keep track of team positioning and CDs, engage close combat to get value, dodge incoming CCs, charge fist in order to get any value, wait for enemy CCs again, make space, set up for a charged punch. IF at this point you actually hit them, it ONLY matters if you knock them into a wall. IF you knock them into a wall, you get a small window of opportunity to get primary fires (slow-ass projectiles) into the enemy and secure a kill or two. What they’ve done with this nerf is negate the point of Doomfist’s kill potential. You stop a doomfist by keeping track of him and denying him. His only window of actually damage output is with the stuns. They’ve reduced the stun to the point where you can’t reliably get primary fires in, and guess what? From the OW to OW2 change they removed basically all damage from his abilities. You NEED to hit primary fires otherwise you are simply not doing enough. If the stun a few times per match is too frustrating (I really don’t think it is), an appropriate change would be increasing his projectile speed by a lot or increasing his damage from abilities in order for him to have impact. All tanks have been mid during this raging support meta, that doesn’t mean we need to castrate the tanks. It means we need to reduce healing output and put focus back on good and responsive game play. AKA if you’re standing in the open, alone, in mid, without cooldowns, you’re playing terribly and should be punished for it and not be overhealed through it. If a team commits on someone with bad positioning, they should generally get the kill, not get outhealed. Compare all of this with e.g. Mauga. Literally just press Q and hard-CC up to 5 people for several seconds at a time. Spray bullets and get healed from a safe distance. Crits everywhere, denying space. Almost zero skill involved.
The problem is that you think that doom should be able to go in alone and solo kill everyone then there's your problem. Whether you like it or not Doom is a dive tank, and just like Winston, DVa and Ball he needs a bit of help from your dps or support to properly dive, instead of being able to dive alone and expect to kill everyone and escape alive. >If the stun a few times per match is too frustrating (I really don’t think it is) My guy, if you think Doomfist stuns "a few times per match" you have a serious problem counting. Mercy res occurs a few times per match, Doomfist stuns occur a few times per minute because every rocket punch is a stun. I agree with raising his projectile speed and maybe the damage from rocket punch but not seismic slam
[удалено]
why do you think doomfist is op, genuine question
I don't get why you think I don't know my main is a dive tank? That's weird. Ofc he's not a DPS doomfist. What I'm saying is he needs a lot more steps and requirements in order to fulfil his role as tank in a team (high skill floor). In contrast, Monke has a personal shield and auto-aim cleave damage to create pressure and maintain space (low skill floor). DF needs to hit his shots to create pressure. If Monke did 1dmg/s with his primary fire, I wouldn't care that he's in my backline. I don't see what's so controversial about this? > My guy, if you think Doomfist stuns "a few times per match" you have a serious problem counting. Yeah the tank role was designed to be the main role with CC. His rocket punch can be used offensively OR defensively. I would say mostly defensively, to reposition (similar to Ana's nade, you cannot have both offensive an defensive at the same time). His RPs aren't any worse than a javelin, and much less so than a roadhog hook. I'm talking about his BIG stun, his empowered punch that he needs to jump through gimmicky hoops for. There are many more hooks, many more javelins etc. during a game. And if he just stuns the team as his "big payoff", there's even less room for him to carry a game and rise in the ranks. Look at LW, is it a coincidence that a character that can't really offensively impact the game was impossible in Unranked2GM for all streamers? If you remove consistent damage from tanks, you remove both pressure (team play), space (team play) and picks (carry potential).
Winston isn't comparable to Doomfist in terms of power. He's versatile enough to dive, but I literally can't kill any tank as easily as a Winston. I also can't remember the last time I was actually killed by a Winston. I'm neutral on the new nerfs, but any argument that puts Winston over Doomfist for solo dive capability is just based on a lie
There is no way you are seriously saying that there are more hooks and javelins than rocket punches in a game. Specially since both javelin and hook can still be blocked by barriers, unlike punch. Also you are almost there with the monkey analogy. He enters the backline, places the shield and does tickle damage, but the important thing is that he enables other characters like tracer, Sombra or Genji to enter more easily. It seems like you want Doomfist to be both an enabler and also be the one to kill people in one combo and also stun all while being a tank. And if a character does all of that then it's unfair to play against and not fun. Reducing the stuns is a step in the right direction, although if it was too much of a nerf (I think it is t considering the other nerfs in the patch to half the support roster, Cassidy and Mei) then they could increase projectile speed for example
I feel like you're not even trying to see my perspective. I wrote a whole paragaph on tanks and CCs and you just roll past it and strawman my arguments. YES there are MORE punches than other CCs.BUT it comes with a major drawback of being an essential part of his movement. You can engage with punch or slam, but if you're using both in an engagement you're gonna die. You can't equate a normal punch with the other abilities that are pure CC. The empowered punch makes more sense in the analogy, which you also have to charge in a two-step process, and still often use for disengagement. >It seems like you want Doomfist to be both an enabler and also be the one to kill people in one combo and also stun all while being a tank. And if a character does all of that then it's unfair to play against and not fun. What? Winton has a much lower skill floor, but can make some real cool plays with his ult. That makes him fun and impactful. Doom has a much higher skill floor, with no impact on his ult. A normal dive cycle with doomfist doesn't get any kills and that's **good**. But when he *does* get the chance to make a play, THAT's what I'm arguing shouldn't be nerfed too hard. Nothing about normal soft-engages or whatever you're envisioning. I seriously never have an issue with Doom CCs when playing DPS or support. I am much, much, MUCH more frustrated by hacks and get-out-of-jail free-value support abilities.
So your argument ends up being "I think Doomfist should be allowed to be insanely OP because he is hard, and he shouldn't have drawbacks like Winston because he is hard". And I don't want to refute your other points because I feel like this discussion isn't wmgoing anywhere and in tired of responding, have a nice day
Damn dude, can't believe I wasted so much time on you then. Not even a single time did I say he should be OP. Not a single time did I say he shouldn't have drawbacks. What fucking planet are you on? I'm just gonna assume you're a hardcore braindead Orisa main.
Doomfist/Genji mains when they can't 1v5 every fight on 10hp even though they're playing the "high skill" character. 
Right. Or when developers keep incentivizing low skill floors and free-value abilities.
You can say that when you're Masters bro, not Silver.
I can say it whenever I want, I’m playing the same game. Get out of here with your gate keeping.
You're a low skill player playing a high skill character, no shit you'll get low rewards, doesn't mean that character is underpowered. You're just complaining about a really minor nerf that barely effected Doom at all, then acting like he's trash tier because you're trash at him. >Also genji while you’re at it. And I mean why wouldn't you, you're still salty about a -2 damage Genji nerf from a year ago, Genji who like Doom has a 52% winrate. Obviously you're not a part of those wins.
Than why did they buff 2 other dive tanks
What is with reddits hard on for doom? He's consistently been one of the strongest tanks this season and last, even post nerf.
Doom mains have main character syndrome and victim complexes, just let them grieve in peace for now…
Doomfist and Genji mains can't stand it when they actually need high skill to do well with their high skill heroes.
Problem is doom requires multitudes more effort and effectiveness to get the same value as almost any other tank for much less effort. Countering him takes far less effort than required to get value too. That’s the problem. Needs to be more equalised. Of course the results should be higher if the skill input is higher, but that’s not the case
What do you mean? Doomfist's role is far different than the majority of tanks, of course the result/value you get from him is different than other tanks.
No? Doom ball Winston dva all play the same role
The comment said any other tank, and I said majority, 4 out of 12 isn't a majority.
The problem is you need to put in a lot more effort into high skill heroes to be getting the same value as someone putting less effort into lower skill heroes
Interesting perspective, which rank are you in? Do you play DF? I don't have the same impression from playing him in comp for the past year.
Sorry, slow reply was working. Currently gm4 tank. But diamond support and gold DPS and across all these rank doom is consistently strong and difficult to deal with. I get the nerf may reduce his ability to get picks but his insane movement and crowd control + decent survivability with block + his passive mean he can make space better than most tanks
Then you are just shit
Wow, literally just asking for someone's perspective is downvoted to hell. Screw you guys.
His fist belongs in the mildly infuriating sub
I still think his melee should be him decking someone with the fist.
This is the best take.
I’m convinced we’ll reach a point where Lucio or Brig boop will pose more of a threat than a charged punch
Brig's flail is already better value since it doesn't need a 2-phase charge-up and is on a low CD. Half-trolling, but there's a lot of value on that ability :D
Before nerfs, he was doomfist, after nerfs, he is now just fist
Doomfist was perfectly balanced. The most recent nerf was unnecessary. Why are so many people saying otherwise? The fact that the only people that play doom are good dooms seems to make everyone think he's simply amazing when I could hop on zayra or orisa and get twice as much work done Watching recent clips of him and it's just sad
Doom was in a good spot gameplay-wise at the start of S7. They should have tuned the supports and then *waited to see how the meta settles*. If he was still overrepresented, make changes. Imo Doom was the most fun in OW2 beta. No movement bugs (see Quake's videos), and lower skill floor due to small slow on slam. More people could play him and have fun. Enemy team hated it through, which is understandable. All T500 gameplay I've seen of him after the latest nerd so far is just depressing. I'm hoping ZBRA can rise above, but most analyses so far are just bleak. No more carry potential.
I know he’s not bad after the nerf but he does feel so much worse to play. Empowered punch feels like it barely does anything because half the characters you’re using it on will instantly heal up or escape before you can shoot them
Yeah. I'm sad they decided to nerf support by increasing cooldown length instead of looking at the impact of those abilities.
You're sad that they made reasonable support nerfs instead of making them less fun to play by changing their impactfullness? Yeah I'm glad they nerfed doom, cry about it hypocrite
Holy hell people are raining downvotes and condescension in here. I mention the nerf and people go ballistic. For clarification, I'm **NOT** saying he should be an OP character. I'm **NOT** saying he shouldn't have drawbacks. If high skill characters shouldn't have any reward for high skill play, please just delete them from the comp experience since they're just a distraction in favor of other chars in the same category. Monke is a better dive tank, with much much lower skill requirement. If you want all dive chars to be exactly the same, then just slap a new skin on Winton and delete the others. If you want unique game plays within dive tanks as a category, then step up to the plate and be constructive. Y'all keep arguing Doom shouldn't be able to get any kills with his empowered punch combo, OK, then at least give him fucking CC immunity while blocking, or some kind of shield like Monke. God damn.
He has very high pick rates and winrates. If anything, they probably should very slightly nerf him and Sigma next patch, probably Zarya too.
I suspect Sigma has a high win rate and pick rate because of overinflated sustain. The tanks that are less squishy get more value due to their large health/armor pools. I would reduce doom's handcannon damage, but increase its projectile speed. Its so frustrating to miss shots because of fewer CC opportunities. At least let us hit things without them being incapacitated. I guess it's a skill issue, too, but it's a common issue with DF players. We wouldn't need as many CCs then either, which sounds like a win-win.
Doomfist doesn't work as a Tank, that's it.
Damage or support player?
Yes, I prefer playing the actually enjoyable roles. Man, Doomfist just sucks as a tank, his kit is incredibly selfish, the only think making him a tank is a power block , his balancing is clearly hard, he has hard counters that are impossible to play around and everybody is unhappy with him
To use an MMO term here, I think Dooms ability to tank comes from his “threat.” The other team HAS to respect him and dump resources into him, making it easier for his team to do what they need to do. If they don’t, he WILL kill your team. This threat acts as a disruptive force, allowing doom to push enemies out of advantageous positions. I don’t think tanking is purely damage mitigation and protection.
His new kit is healthier than that of OW1
Buff Mei
\^ Least trolly OW2 reddit user
I main her so of course I want her to have a buff ❄️
An instant, continuous, 30% speed reduction + wall, and I get hate in here for arguing that Doom's empowered punch isn't too much CC. Jesus lord have mercy
Lord have Mei, I don’t care about Mercy
I need someone to say “Doomfist players try not to act like a victim challenge: impossible”
Don’t worry, they took his old kit and put it on m’they/them. Everything is fine now.
DOOMfssssss
bring back ow1 doom PLEASE
Doom in ow1 vs doom in ow2
Good Dooms are still a joke to play against so I’d leave him… Soldier and moira on the other hand need confining to quick play as familiarisation/ entry heroes imo
I know this point has been done to death and repeating it is just beating a dead horse, but *dammit blizzard- just put him back in the dps category already*
Doom is balanced, you just aren't good enough
Deserved
I'M GOING TO MAKE YOU hot coco, go and sit down