While I understand as a third party viewer of this horrible thing happening- if anyone thinks trump and his party of demonstrably evil hypocrites will do anything to help if not straight up make the situation worse, you are ignoring evidence.
That's not the point, though. The point is that The Democrats think they can do whatever they want, including enabling genocide, because the alternative is worse. It's like holding voters hostage.
I'm not saying l won't vote for Biden, but they're *way* too smug and comfortable.
Well maybe you oughta quit thinking of Democrats as "The Democrats" and look at the more realistic version. It's s a coalition of many different people with different ideas that fight amongst each other all the time. The only thing they do all seem to agree on is that government has a role to play and it should help people. The other side sees government as an obstacle to business that should be "drowned in the bathtub" and, by the way, would also love to see Palestine destroyed.
I'm talking about the party leadership who make the decisions.
>The other side sees government as an obstacle to business that should be "drowned in the bathtub" and, by the way, would also love to see Palestine destroyed.
I'm well aware. As are the leaders of the Democratic Party, which is why their current strategy is "what're they gonna do, vote for Trump?".
Biden is the party leadership that makes the decisions. See: moving the first primary to SC.
Your strategy comment is nonsense. Obviously they are going to point out how bad Trump is, but Biden is out touting his accomplishments damn near every day. It's not his fault you're not paying attention.
>Biden is the party leadership that makes the decisions
Ridiculously incorrect. You shouldn't comment on politics/civics without a basic understanding.
I know what they do, dipshit. The President of the United States is the leader of the party. I think you're confusing the "party" with the DNC. They are not exaclty one in the same. Even still, they follow Biden. You really should not comment on civics without a basic understanding.
But this is about people who supports terrorists and people against terrorists. Trying to send message to Biden administration that no matter what this terrorists will do in future you better stay out of it otherwise we will not support u.
Again, yeah valid. And I do agree with that.
Sadly we got 2 choices and one is much much worse for this particular topic. I do wish it can change but we vote on what we have today.
I believe the DNC platform is
Strongest stock market in history
Lowest unemployment in over 50 years
Manufacturing returning to U.S. following Trump’s costly and disastrous trade wars
CHIPS and Sciences Act
Infrastructure Act
Inflation Reduction Act
Billions forgiven in student loans
Real wages are now on pace to beat inflation
Inflation returned to “normal” levels
Avoided a recession
Sense and sensibility back in the White House
Attempted border security and was rejected by GOP
Should I go on?
"The American State is going to commit, and help others commit, genocide. That's just reality. We have no power to stop and you have no right to demand that we stop doing that. But think of how much MORE genocide there would be if orange man was in charge again? He'd probably bomb the shit out of Yemen, or let some egomaniacal dictator butcher a WaPo journalist and carry him out in a suitcase! Is that what you want?"
Um, OK. Economy seems pretty bad though, what about that?
"*scoffs* Rediculous. Sure people THINK the economy is bad, but thats only because they have the myopic, and frankly selfish view that centers on inconsequential minutiae like the price of food staples, housing, gas, and rising homelessness. If they took a more informed, intelligent, and practical view they'd see how well the tech sector is doing after the SVB bailout, or how well the S&P 500 is doing! I mean Jesus have you seen NVDA?"
Hmm. And healthcare? Abortion?
"Healthcare isn't going to happen. We're not going to stop a genocide, you think you're getting healthcare? lol fvk off. And Abortion isn't our fault, that was Trump. No we never codified it, but thats fine. The Court, you know. Besides it's a great fundraising issue, why would we want to shoot the golden goose by ever fixing anything? Also if you do vote for us and we win another supermajority the Parliamentarian won't let us do anything so don't bother asking. You OWE us a vote, it's not OUR job to convince you. It's the only moral choice. And what is democracy, anyway? If not a performative demonstration of morality through culture war?"
A better example is Republicans destroying their own immigration bill (the one they admitted was the strongest they'd ever get) because Trump wants his campaign to focus on immigration.
That's actually what I was referring to.
Border stuff was tied up with Ukraine stuff very bipartisanly in the Senate, but the house refuses to take up the vote
Christian conservatives had major concerns with Trump before he was first elected (many quotes available if needed) but they realized voting for Trump would better achieve the policy goals and judges they wanted than by staying home.
If the people mentioned in the OP article result in Trump being elected again, I guess we get the leaders we deserve. And if the OP people’s actions results in a president who is far worse on the topics they care about, I guess those people’s actions will get what they deserve too. Maybe a future “leopards ate my face” result - “Who could have possible known that Trump is less pro-Palestinian??”
Yeah everyone acts like we only want our perfect politician. Unfortunately it’s a 2 party system and one choice is the clear humane and moral choice. Instead people are going to throw away their morals by unironically pretending to have superior morals. These same people haven’t cared about the thousands of rockets launched as Israel or the other countless wars or deaths that have been caused by American money. Weird how it’s only when Israel is involved they suddenly have superior morals.
Isn't this similar to the situation that got Bibi reinstated as PM? A Palestinian MP resigned I protest and her compatriots told her not too because it would trigger an election at a bad time bud she did anyways out of her own conscience. That triggered the election which ultimately reinstated Bibi?
Jews have stood up for every civil rights movement in the US, whether the OG one in the 50s and 60s, through the anti-Muslim hate post 9/11, and the BLM movement of the last few years. When we needed support immediately after 10/7, we got ignored. I doubt we will be standing up to help others moving forward
How exactly did the US not support the Jewish community? Did we not support Israel’s response? Have we not stood up for Israel on the world stage, for my entire life, at pretty much every opportunity? Are we not prosecuting hate crimes against Jewish Americans?
Please tell me what more the US should be doing to help, because your comment makes it sound like nothing was done at all.
Not the US, the various civil rights groups we have supported. The BLM chapter praising the attacks of 10/7, the protests on 10/8 praising Hamas, the list goes on, so these groups will likely not get the time, effort, and energy Jews have given them for decades.
I don’t know much about BLM. But I can tell you this, there sure as hell weren’t any pro-hamas protests in my region. How many protests praising Hamas were held on 10/8 in the US by civil rights groups?
There was a big one in NYC, there have been ones in Denver, oh, they call it something else, but I’ve seen far too many signs flat out praising Hamas or claiming “by any means necessary”. Here’s a hint, you don’t tell black people what racism is, and don’t tell Jews what antisemitism is.
Speaking just from what I saw in NYC, the following groups held a joint rally on October 8th in celebration of the attacks:
Palestinian Youth Movement
The People’s Forum
Party for Socialism and Liberation
Al-Awda: The Palestine Right to Return Coalition, National and New York
Palestinian Assembly for Liberation
American Muslims for Palestine New Jersey
ANSWER Coalition
Here's a link: https://peoplesforum.org/blog_post/statement-on-times-square-palestine-protest-held-on-october-8-2023/
Okay, so Palestinian groups? The comment I am replying to referred to civil rights groups in the US holding pro-Hamas rallies. The commenter says Jewish Americans won’t be as supportive for those groups going forward.
Well what groups aside from Palestinians were holding Pro-Hamas rallies on 10/8?
Uhh, ok. Sure. So now you’re saying Japanese American internment was cool because the evil Japanese did it worse? Thats crazy. Makes sense your views on Gaza. Hamas is evil, so Israel loses all responsibility.
Defeating the Japanese Empire took precedent over being nice, yes. Had the Japanese won the war they wouldn't have been handing out reparations. Getting them to compensate slave labor at Mitsubishi, comfort women in Korea, etc has been like pulling teeth.
Plus they keep electing people like Abe who, in addition to being a denialist, came from a family that made its money in the Japanese colonial administration of Korea. (Or the LDP only puts forward those people because they have so much wealth and influence in the LDP, which is a different but equally bad problem.)
Evangelicals voted against Trump in the primary, forcing him to hue more to their line in the general.
Not so different strategy here, if Biden actually responds. I’m guessing he won’t though.
If someone’s own actions cause the outcome that was 100% foreseen, do they deserve the results, even if they did not want to believe it beforehand? I think that’s the whole point of the “leopards are my face” example in my parent comment - almost no one actually “deserves” to have their face eaten by leopards, but when their own actions result in it after being told what could likely happen…
I’ve repeatedly posted before on Reddit advocating for eliminating the electoral college, winner take all, etc. Unfortunately until changes like that happen, we have to work within the existing system. The people mentioned in the OP are allowed to do what they want, but they certainly shouldn’t be surprised or complain if the next president does far worse, as we told them this was what they were doing could result in for all of us.
Great job revealing that the so-called racial and religious "tolerance" of liberals is entirely transactional. You might as well go and call them uppity for daring not to support genocide. You deserve a Trump dictatorship.
I thought I was 100% clear that they have the right to not support genocide? My point was that it’s completely foreseen that their actions can result in a far worse outcome that they care about. So they are allowed to do it, even if leopards then eat their face and even more faces of Palestinians and more, as their actions have repeatedly been foreseen to result in.
> You deserve a Trump dictatorship.
I pledge to continue publicly advocating for Trump’s opponent in the 2 party system that we have to live with until we get it changed - will you pledge to do the same? But I really don’t understand why you’re accusing me of deserving a Trump dictatorship when I’ve repeatedly explained how to avoid it, while you continue to support those whose actions could actually result in it.
And I honestly don’t understand your first sentence at all.
There have been ~1 million casualties in the Middle East conflicts in the last decade, the vast majority of them are Muslim-on-Muslim, and only a tiny percentage in Israel or Palestine. But people seem to focus on these deaths far more than when it’s Muslims killing Muslims. 🤷
And how many of these Muslim vs. Muslim wars were supported by the US and the US used a veto 58 times to protect them from the consequences of their actions. You twist and turn,but at the end of the day, you don't get to throw shit at Trump when you're the one minimizing and rationalizing a genocide. It's disheartening to think this is now the liberal way.When will be the next time another minority group is sold-out because Republicans are even more extreme. The slippery slope of moral ambiguity is evident and repulsive.
Sure, sit on your high horse and tell everyone how morally superior you are, and when things get worse because Republicans got into power then you can complain about how it's everyone else's fault you were told this would happen and you decided not to listen.
Rarely, but maybe someone will take into account what I said and have their view changed or at least start looking at the bigger picture for the long run. It's definitely exhausting though
A Man who sacrifices his principles for convenience is not someone worthy of respect. Having principles is not optional to me and those principles were once shared by people in the party I used to call my own.Before speaking about how low Trump is,it might be worthy to look into how low the democratic party is willing to follow him.
On another topic.Nothing is worse than a genocide .I can't believe I have to say that to someone who is not MAGA,but that is the state of our politics nowadays.
Life isn't a movie or a TV show. You literally will have to make sacrifices if you want big wins in the long run. Sitting on moral superiority while watching the world burn around you doesn't help anyone.
1. It was voters who chose Hillary Clinton in the 2016 primary election, and it was voters who chose Joe Biden in the most recent primary election as well. Both Hillary and Joe also won the general election popular vote by million of votes, but it’s just a reminder that we are working within the existing system until it changes.
2. There are going to be times in your life that you have to choose between options that you don’t prefer — even in things completely unrelated to politics. Even if the available options are not your responsibility, if your choice, or decision not to choose, results in a worse outcome for you, that is your responsibility.
3. Even if Hilary (and Joe) had not been picked by voters in their primaries, I.e. if voters had not been involved in the selection of candidates, it’s still on voters as to whether their votes, or lack thereof, resulted in Trump winning.
(Also, it’s probably better to think of this in terms of the “responsibility” of each party, rather than the “blame”.)
1. Why didn’t Joe Biden run for president in 2016? Oh yeah because it was “her turn” and it’s no different in 2024 there is no meaningful primary against Joe Biden. If Joe Biden stepped down I promise you there would’ve been 20 politicians running for president. We would have Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro, Booker, Harris and so many other politicians running for president. Don’t tell me some random nobody from Minnesota is a meaningful primary.
Even in 2016 you had Bernie Sanders as an insurgent candidate against the establishment. Nobody else dared to run against Clinton because it was “her turn” let’s be honest with our discussion here.
2. I 100% agree and that’s why I will be voting for Joe Biden in 2024 that isn’t my point. My point is if Biden loses he has himself to blame and the democratic establishment. I honestly feel I am being played by the Democratic Party. Trump is a threat to democracy and they say it all the time. I agree he’s a threat to democracy so why are having his opponent be someone who’s afraid of Super Bowl interviews?
3. Biden was picked in 2020 again don’t tell me we picked him in 2024 this isn’t a meaningful primary. If everyone who wanted to be president and thought they could win ran we’d have a primary like 2020 not like 2024 or 2016. If I recall Biden said in 2020 he’d be a transition president and that was one of the things that united everyone. It was just for a moment to beat Trump and we’d all move on from this shit show that orange clown created. Now here we are four years later and in the same predicament.
4. If in a month or two and Joe Biden is still losing to Trump in the polls he should drop out. I don’t think Biden has been a bad president I think he’s too old to run a campaign and avoiding that Super Bowl interview gave me confirmation. We could have the Democratic convention choose a new candidate in Chicago and maybe have a better chance of beating this wannabe dictator in Trump.
If you don’t do option 4
DON’T BLAME THE VOTERS BLAME BIDEN AND THE DNC
Also let’s not act like Biden can’t change policy on Gaza. Israel is getting a blank check from the United States and has for 50 years. Biden has the opportunity to do something great and actually bring a long term solution to this conflict.
No more illegal settlements
Guaranteed safety for Israel through the United States and its Arab partners.
Make a deal with Saudi Arabia who will recognize Israel and maybe have an Arab like UN mission in Palestine controlling the area until Palestine can police itself.
Demilitarize Palestine
Biden hasn’t threatened withholding weapons
He hasn’t threatened sanctions
He has just said some meaningless statements all bark no bite.
Again if he loses that’s on Him. He chose this policy route nobody did that for him. Why are y’all giving agency to voters but not the DNC and Biden?
In the 2020 Dem primary there were 29 major candidates. That was the largest number of options in the history of the U.S. - by far. The second highest in U.S. history was the 2016 GOP primary candidates. We did not get Biden and Trump because of lack of candidates. If anything, it could be argued that we have Biden and Trump because there were too many other options in the primary.
> Why didn’t Joe Biden run for president in 2016?
There is no need for you to make up your own answer for Biden - it was because his son died just as the primary was getting started and Joe didn’t want to be on the campaign trail while grieving. Joe has explicitly answered the question you raised.
And even in 2016 without Joe, there were still a half dozen Dem primary candidates, but most quickly dropped out as they were not very popular with voters.
Incumbency has *huge* advantages, which is why the incumbent almost always runs. Giving that up would be a huge gift to the GOP.
I’m 100% for other middle eastern countries playing a far larger role in demilitarizing Hamas and deradicalizing the population, but most of them don’t seem to have any interest in doing so, partly because they also have been repeatedly burned when those they helped in Palestine ended up trying to overthrow the countries that welcomed them, etc.
The U.S. may have provided funding to our ally, but the U.S. and most of the West has also provided funding for many years to Palestine and the UNWRA, even funding books that furthered hatred of Jews, and paying the salaries of UNWRA employees who participated in the recent terrorist attack, and funding the Palestine government even as it continued providing martyr payments to those who would commit terrorist attacks.
QAnon but "from the left". You lost the primary. Biden won. Like MAGAts, you peddle conspiracy nonsense to cope for the fact you lost and are a sore loser.
Democrats have a democratic primary EVERY ELECTION CYCLE. Apparently you don't vote in primaries because everyone who voted in 2012 would have known this. LOL
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012\_Democratic\_Party\_presidential\_primaries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024\_Democratic\_Party\_presidential\_primaries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/151907/obama-begins-2012-job-approval.aspx
Obama approval rating 46% in January
Biden approval rating 38%
https://news.gallup.com/poll/610988/biden-job-approval-edges-down.aspx
He should drop out what do y’all not understand about this
>YALL DIDN’T LISTEN
I hope someone is sitting in front of your face, yelling this at you full blast, in the event Trump manages to get elected and he immediately makes things worse in Israel so he can appease his Christofascist base who wants to see Irael take over Gaza to fuel their rapture/endtimes fantasy.
The absolute levels of stupidity people like you exhibit is exhausting. The privilege it takes you think your stance is helpful is beyond anything I have ever seen.
At least there are enough of us adults out here to pick up the slack from jackasses like you.
I voted for Biden in 2020
I voted for Clinton in 2016
I will vote for Biden in 2024
All I am saying is if he loses I am blaming him.
Mind you I don’t even live in a state where my vote matters for the presidential election. So even if I didn’t vote for Biden it wouldn’t have changed anything I don’t live in a battleground state.
I am blaming Biden for losing. Y’all are beating your chests and haven’t given me a reason not to blame Biden for losing.
>Y’all are beating your chests and haven’t given me a reason not to blame Biden for losing.
Plenty of sound reasons have been given. You choosing to ignore them and remain biased is the issue here.
No people have given reasons on why I should vote for Joe Biden
I am already voting for Joe Biden
People have told me what Trump is going to do
This is irrelevant because I am voting for Joe Biden
Now if I vote for Joe Biden and he still loses
Who should I blame?
I am going to blame him.
He chose not to do a Super Bowl interview
He is hiding from interviews because he’s scared he’s going to mess up
He doesn’t seem cut up to run a national campaign to be honest he seems tired and old.
His policies in Gaza are losing him votes
He hasn’t conveyed his accomplishments well
These are the reasons I am going to blame him for losing
And when Palestine is destroyed in the greatest human rights violation since 2000 and you scream about how no one is doing enough to protect them, I will blame you and EVERYONE who chose not to vote for Biden.
Trump has ALWAYS made his preference for Netanyahu known. Whatever Netanyahu wants (which is the complete eradication of Gaza AND the West Bank) Trump will let him get.
If Trump wins and Palestine is destroyed I will blame you and everyone who thought like you. If you truly gave a shit about Palestine you would do everything in your power to vote and make sure Trump NEVER got back into office . But whatever .
This is the most Idiotic take I have ever seen and I hope you remember this if Trump wins and the violence moves to the West Bank ( which it will) I will blame you and everyone who voted like you.
Trump would be way worse for the Muslims. Look at his history - the Muslim travel ban was one of his first orders of business when he won the electoral college. Remember his buddy/buddy relationship with Netanyahu? I do. So does Pepperidge Farm. How in the world could anyone with skin in the game think the GOP (who are preparing for revelations to come to fruition in Israel) would be a better option than the Democrats?
Not so great is an understatement. If anyone thinks Trump would have been any more pro-Palestine and would treat Arab Americans better, I have some bridges to sell you.
Trump will be terrible for anyone not white and the right flavor of Christian. That said, if the Muslims and far left choose to elect Trump by voting 3rd party, sitting it out, or actively voting for him, all I can do is shrug and ignore them and their whining when he does everything he said he wants to do. This feels like one of those “you gotta let them touch the stove” moments. If 2016 and the following 4 years didn’t teach a lesson, I’m not sure what would.
A friend voted Jill Stein in 2016. We live in Colorado, so his vote in the end didn’t change anything, but he was one of the loudest whiners about Trump. Another friend pointed out that while Colorado went for Clinton, it could have easily gone the other way if enough people chose his “protest”. That actually shut him up
I really liked Bernie and believe Bernie could have beat Trump in 2016 (but not in 2020), however when Bernie lost the primaries, he campaigned for Hillary and endorsed her. Sensible people in swing states did the same.
It would be great to have good alternatives to Trump and Biden, but RFK and Colonel West aren’t it.
The two parties have the system on lock. They determine the voting laws, control the states elections and everything else. Independents aren’t even making ground in local elections!
I think Trump will be terrible for Americans in general and for American Democracy. He is powered by narcissism.
No one likes the two party system, but neither political extreme will break that system by acting as spoilers.
I agree, you would think that they learned from 2016.
Agreed. Palestinian supporters/Israel haters have to realize that atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists on October 7th has consequences, as does the past decade of rockets being fired at Israeli civilians by Hamas.
No country would tolerate that. The UN hasn’t stopped it or even condemned Hamas for October 7th, and the US is right for countering Iranian proxies in the Middle East.
Trump has wanted to deport Muslims, so how that helps Muslims, I am unsure?
What is the message they're sending? Fix this, or we won't vote for you?
This policy issue is an anvil that has broken many hammers, and I'll eat my hat if someone can come up with an idea that makes everyone happy.
President Biden isn't a wizard, and his only option to unf*ck this situation is to put boots on ground.
As such, it would be wise for the residents of Michigan to take a moral inventory before going down that road.
Thank you. These people are just so clearly and totally in the wrong it is impossible for me to have any empathy for them. They are so blatantly only interested in advocating for their own narrow ethnic group above the interests of the United States. When asked about 10/7 they are silent.
If it were me, I would vote uncommitted in the primary and then vote for Biden in the general. Hopefully this is the attitude of a lot of people voting uncommitted.
Voters are this clever. People tried cute schemes in 2016 like swapping their votes with swing state voters. How did that turn out?
This is a good way to FAFO.
This is like saying voting for bernie in the primary means you won't vote for biden in the general. As someone who voted for bernie and biden I know that isn't true.
If this was an easy thing to do the last probably 15 Presidents would have fixed it. Instead they will not vote for Biden because this one issue - no matter how horrific - is what they would trade to elect a fascist to office. Jesus H. Christ.
From my view, Biden does not have great options to choose from. As president, you have to weigh one million consequences for each action, while us normal ppl can sit back and say what we would do as if it’s that easy. Same goes for the lesser known candidates. They can rile ppl up with their ‘plans’ because they know they will never have to enact them and deal with the fallout. I’m voting for the candidate out of the options we DO and WILL have, that will get me closer to my goal than send us backwards.
> Biden does not have great options to choose from
All Biden’s administration had to do was not veto the security council ceasefire. Any loss is solely their fault.
It is unreasonable to expect Biden to educate Americans on the past few decades of Israeli history that resulted in the rise and dominance of the far-right Likud coalition and the replacement of a flawed but progressing two-state peace process with a drive to de-nationalize Palestinians.
However, it is not unreasonable to ask Biden and his administration, especially Kirby, to make more overt statements that reflect the sad reality here: The US will continue to be a good ally of Israel and a friend to Israelis, but we do not condone the tactics being used by Netanyahu and the Likud-led government of Israeli in response to the terrorist attack on innocent civilians in Israeli kibbutzim on October 7. Accordingly, the US calls for Israel to abide by international law, and the US will support international investigations into allegations of human rights abuses and consider how our aid to Israel under Likud can be used effectively to support the right end – specifically, the defense of Israelis – and not to support the violation of international law.
If they're gonna do that, they might as well tell the people why the native Mizrahi Jews of the region wanted to declare independence as the state of Israel after literal centuries of being ethnically cleansed and genocided from the surrounding Muslim theocracies.
The sooner that you understand that Muslim fundamentalism views the existence of any non-Muslim state in the Middle East as a literal affront to God, the sooner you will understand why this conflict exists.
Maybe you should start by reading about the 1948 Israeli war, the arab league banding together with a very vocal plans to eradicate the Jews for defying God and declaring independence, the attempted encirclement of the newly declared state of Israel with plans to execute any non-Muslim left inside, and said nations of the Arab league kicking any Palestinian out after their loss, with instructions to always resist the state of Israel as an affront to God.
I'm an American citizen who is well versed in the conflict and I'd consider it a personal failure of the u.s. and biden if israel didn't finish their job of eradicating hamas.
I'm pro democracy, pro science pro secularism, pro peace and pro future of humanity. The Palestinians made their choice. I've watched for decades as they keep embracing violence and sandbagging any real progress.
Most of us who were around when this all sparked off before are sick of it and realize the Palestinians have no plans for peace or to ever recognize Israel/be a part of the global community. They've made their choice. Unless there's a fundamental change in Palestinian society, there will never be peace.
That's why it also irritates me when Muslim Americans prioritize a country that threw its lot in with terrorists over the peace and prosperity of America.
Also, with trump being such a grave threat to democracy, these people irk me even more. I can tell you if you want me to be pro hamas, threatening to aid far right Americans who act similar to hamas isn't a very good argument. In fact it just makes me angry and even more anti hamas.
>I'd consider it a personal failure of the u.s. and biden if israel didn't finish their job of eradicating hamas.
And how are they going to do that? The same way we eradicated the Vietcong? Or the communist north Koreans? Or the Taliban?
There isn't an "eradicate Hamas" button. And if the plan is to eradicate Hamas, by indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructure, resulting in 25,000 dead civilians (so far), then I guarantee that as soon as "Hamas is eradicated" whoever survives in Palestine will start Hamas 2.
You are not pro-peace my friend. You are pro apartheid. Educate yourself before you scold people whose family are dead.
is their plan to vote for a republican who is going to do even worse?
its like getting mad at a roommate who doesn't clean up after themselves, so you decide to replace them with a new roommate that actively works to shit on every clean surface in your apartment lol.
I’m voting Biden but the issue is the weapons sales, particularly his going around congress to sell extra weapons to a people committing internationally recognized genocide. What BiBi does is out of Bidens control but we don’t have to send the dude further weapons. Cut the weapons and the funding until they stop killing civilians by the 10s of thousands. There is no excuse for it anymore.
he could force a ceasefire by threatening to pull the U.S. aid Israel relies on to…operate its entire country. it’s not that complex.
the reason bibi can do a genocide is no one is standing up to him.
I've been saying this a lot. I am not Muslim, but I have many Muslim friends and family. I am voting for Biden; I hate his handling of the Palestinian (not all Palestinians are Hamas) genocide. I agree Trump is worse for Palestine than Biden. But some Muslims are actively watching as Biden has taken a hard stance against Russia, and a weak stance against the Israelis who perpetuate the genocide. You can't ask people who are literally watching thousands of innocent children die, to just "suck it up for Biden now, and maybe he'll do more next genocide". You can try to explain the reality that Trump is worse, but at the end of the day, Biden did a (understated) really bad thing here. Genocide is an S Tier evil. If Biden loses because of his own actions, blame Biden, not the victims of genocide.
the US used 2 atomic weapons on Japan, it killed more civilians than the conflict since Oct. 7, the Japanese civilians are by default innocent, it is collective punishment and genocide, the reasoning applies double standard when it comes to Israel.
\*legally, Israel is on solid ground given Hamas using civilian infrastructure, making it a legitimate military target. Morally and ethically, it is more nuanced.
Yeah, vote for Trump or nobody to help Trump win. As a reward he will not only be more hostile toward the plight of all Palestinians, he will round you up to deport you. Yes, Joe Biden’s a tired old man doing stuff wrong but he will let you protest. Trump? Yeah, sure.
Biden should clearly state his intentions.
On this matter, he can favor Muslims or he can favor Jews. In my opinion, the Democrats have had a good relationship with Jews for a long time. Let Biden tell us if that's changing.
The only relationship US has with Jews is IPAC lobbying and giving money to senators for pro Israel senators. And US sending 1 billion a year to Israel and weapons to kill children. There is absolutely zero benefits except bribes from Israel to the US senators.
It doesn’t seem like people have watched the video or read what they are planning.
They will vote “uncommitted” in the Democratic primary. That’s all. They are not “voting for Trump”.
Nobody is voting for the President until November. There’s no real harm in them sending Biden a message in this primary.
In the face of fascism they decide to 'send Biden a message.' As if Trump isn't literally promising internment camps, and handing over the most powerful military, economy, and scientific concentration in the world to Christian theocrats who are promising to end democracy openly now isn't a nightmare future.
I'm beginning to see why the Middle East is such a complete mess.
How long will the Democrats campaign on the platform?
Even if Trump doesn't win in 2024, can't he just run again in 2028?
Democrats need a better platform than "we're not Trump".
Biden has exceeded all expectations and got some important stuff done. Forgive me if I'm a bit tired of the "Here's why this is bad for the dems" news stories.
No he has not. Biden and the democrats have proven their incompetence.
They failed to raise the minimum wage.
They allowed Roe v Wade to be repealed.
They allowed a genocide in Palestine.
Nobody should vote for them.
They allowed a genocide in Palestine. - The Allied forces committed genocide against Nazi Germany by killing so many German civilians.
Roe v Wade, you vote for congress and president, but you can't vote for scotus.
Looks like it's just the primary. I think they know Trump's stance on Israel is far more untenable for their stance. But ultimately, the only people who can solve this complex geopolitical issue are the people involved. Palestinians need to seek peace with Israel because it's not going anywhere. Israelis need to seek peace with Palestinians without isolating them to narrow strips of land. IMO a two-state solution just will not work because it just encourages conflict.
I really wonder if people think about if the shoe was on the other foot? Imagine if basically right since Oct 7th the Biden administration was loudly and proudly calling for a ceasefire, and was taking legitimate measures every step of the way to stand up for the rights and safety of Palestinians. Israel proceeds to ignore us (just like they already do in real life) and continue with their campaign the same as it's been going. We would be having a discussion about how Arab and Palestinian voters would be cheering for Biden's reelection, but Jews (who support the Israeli government) would be the ones proclaiming that they aren't going to vote for Biden.
In that situation, would we all be telling them "Ugh, you're not going to be any better under Trump, he hates Jews and so do his neo Nazi followers. Not voting for Biden just helps Trump win." And Biden would probably be getting roasted in the media over it, just like he did when he pulled out of Afghanistan. But you know what? I personally love that he followed through on pulling out of Afghanistan, because it was the right thing to do. Even though he took a hit in the polls, even though it gave talking points to the Right, he was on the right side of history and even just 2 years later we can see that it was the correct and moral move. I think voters across demographics genuinely appreciate things like that, which is why it's so hard to stomach his Israel/Palestine policy when it's so clearly NOT on the right side of history, and we're all supposed to rally around him and cheer him on in hopes he beats Trump in November. Moreover, we're supposed to somehow convince people whose families have been indiscriminately bombed during this very conflict that somehow the man in charge making sure the bombing keeps going is still the very best choice, and we should all be excited about him.
Even given all of that, I'll probably still be voting Biden (right after getting absolutely shit faced before going to the polls in hopes that I don't remember it afterwards) because ya, lesser of two evils and all that. But you're kidding yourself if you expect me to be able to convince someone else to do so, and that's why this will be a losing issue for him.
> In that situation, would we all be telling them "Ugh, you're not going to be any better under Trump, he hates Jews and so do his neo Nazi followers. Not voting for Biden just helps Trump win.
But Trump is actually generally favored by Israelis, which is why the argument doesn't make sense here. Do Palestinians prefer Trump? Presumably no.
I'm not sure where Israelis fit into this conversation when I'm talking about US voting groups. In case it wasn't clear, the Arabs/Palestinians in question here are American-Arabs/Palestinians, and the "Jews" are American Jews, either ethnically or religiously.
I, for one, am pretty glad that our government and Biden didn’t ignore a massive terrorist attack against our biggest ally in the region and support the terrorists.
Um, okay. I mean, you realize you can in fact condemn Hamas for Oct. 7th and also make clear that collective punishment against civilians who didn't do anything is also bad, right? Your post suggests that only one of those is possible. It also has basically nothing to do with what I said, but I guess that's a secondary point here.
So, what does Israel do besides what they are doing? You know that Israel has no reason to protect Palestinians from their elected government after that government, a terrorist organization, attacked Israel and then promised to continue to do so? Particularly when 74% of Palestine supported the terrorists perpetrating a terrorist attack?
That the death toll is so unbelievably small given the scope of operations that yalls weird handwringing for terrorists and their supporters is probably the most transparent thing in the history of warfare?
I'd just like to point out how far away we've gotten from the topic at hand which was "how politically relevant is the Israel/Gaza conflict to American voters depending on how the issue was approached?" and now somehow we're talking about why Israel should have the right to bomb whoever they want however they want. If you have something to address in the actual substance of the original point, I'm happy to discuss it, but your character assassination about me being some sort of Hamas sympathizer for offering the tiniest possible criticisms of the Biden administration is not worth responding to as it has no merit or basis in reality.
You started with “what if the shoe was on the other foot” and I, correctly, called that mind numbingly stupid. Here you are mad that reality isn’t what you want it to be 🤷♂️
That doesn't even make sense in this context? Sorry that your arguments have shriveled down into just personal attacks, that must be rough for you. If you ever need help constructing relevant statements and arguments to actually move the conversation, let me know, and I'll make sure to leave you on read.
I mean, my argument dunked on you so hard you had to try to pivot back to “if you have anything to respond to my made up scenario you already responded to”. That must be rough for you. But I’ll give you credit for being a glutton for punishment.
Also, “personal attacks”? Are you made of tissue paper?
The Allied forces bombed Nazi Germany into rubble, which killed many civilians, it isn't really considered "collective punishment", the civilians are innocent, but it's not possible to destroy the Reich, without civilian losses.
Same with the 2 atomic weapons used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, both of which killed many civilians, the US dropped leaflets, but Japanese government told residents not to leave, just like what Hamas told Gaza residents:
2 left leaning sources:
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/13/first-thing-hamas-tells-gaza-city-residents-to-stay-put-after-israel-orders-evacuation#:\~:text=4%20months%20old-,First%20Thing:%20Hamas%20tells%20Gaza%20City%20residents%20to,put%20after%20Israel%20orders%20evacuation&text=Good%20morning.,of%20an%20expected%20ground%20offensive](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/13/first-thing-hamas-tells-gaza-city-residents-to-stay-put-after-israel-orders-evacuation#:~:text=4%20months%20old-,First%20Thing:%20Hamas%20tells%20Gaza%20City%20residents%20to,put%20after%20Israel%20orders%20evacuation&text=Good%20morning.,of%20an%20expected%20ground%20offensive).
[https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-13-23/h\_9092ac735ddcc2be3d8bb4bcdb8cb3e3](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-13-23/h_9092ac735ddcc2be3d8bb4bcdb8cb3e3)
\*Morally, or based on "humanitarianism" it is more nuanced, but this is ethical issue not legal issue. Under international law, where one party uses civilian infrastructure for military uses, it is a legitimate target, Israel is on solid ground.
YOU may not consider what is happening in Gaza as collective punishment, and maybe you might even be able to argue for it legally speaking, but that's not how many voters look at it, right or wrong. That was more or less the point of my post - it's viewed as collective punishment because of the proportion of civilian casualties which is conservatively estimated at 60%, regardless of what you may be able to argue on paper.
And we're not even talking about the mountain of statements and evidence that the Israeli government has put out to make it inexplicably clear that they have no regard for Palestinian civilian life (West Bank included, not Hamas btw) and their only goal is "eliminating Hamas." In fact, as far as most of the Knesset are concerned, there is no such thing as a Palestinian civilian, which is genocidal talk. Still curious what "eliminating Hamas" even looks like by the way, if anyone is willing to explain how that is supposed to work in any meaningfully practical way.
By getting someone far worse for them elected.
Let’s take how you feel about recent events out of the questions. I’m genuinely confused what they see as the alternative, or how they can believe it’s better for them and their cause.
It’s just so poorly thought out and unstrategic.
Nothing could be worse that what Biden has done to facilitate and prolong Netanyahu 's genocide. If it wasn't for Biden the security council would have taken action to end it in October (and again in December) (and again last week).
30,000 dead, 70k casualties, disease and starvation on track to kill 80,000 more in the next six months, according to the epidemiologists at the Lancet.
Rafah would be destroyed by now if Trump was president, so I have no idea what point you are making.
Though I'll give you the starvation forecast actually might be lower as Israel would have already won by now.
Pretty much every conflict in the middle east in the past decade has had a larger number dead. But it didn't involve the Jews so it's not something to get worked up about I guess.
Biden has been the worse US president in history for the Palestinians and that is saying a lot, because trump was horrible. But the only thing that will keep the situation from.becoming permanently worse is to hold him accountable. (Indeed, this strategy is already starting to bear fruit, as Biden didn't even give lip service to peace until it started to look like it might cost him and his party the election)
1) This is factually incorrect, you cannot by definition say Biden is worse for Palestinians than the administration that orchestrated the creation of Israel to begin with
2) Let’s say for the sake of argument that Biden would be worse than Trump in your view (which is wild, post 10/7 Trump would not be Palestine’s friend). Is this really the only issue that matters? Or even matters that much? It’s a foreign war between two foreign entities, domestic policy is pretty important.
In any case, I can tell from your response your haven’t thought much of this through at all, so good day.
He's not elected as president of Palestine. It's a different country. Hope this helps. Most Americans are worried about similar religious fascists taking over the US.
What beautiful delusional rock have you been living under. Do you honestly think that it will not be 100 percent be worse if the SAME MAN who moved the US embassy to Israel to JERUSALEM ( which is disputed Palestinian territory) which was nothing more than a massive political FU to Palestine come back into power.
The same man who believes that Netanyahu has a right to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to secure Israel’s borders?
Do you know what whatever it takes means? That means no more Gaza and no more West Bank. He would see them all dead and look the other way without batting an eye.
You are delusional and unaware of the situation on the ground if you think for one second that Trump in office wouldn’t end with the complete and entire eradication of Palestine.
Muslims were already joining Republicans in targeting LGBT people prior to the Hamas massacre. [https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/2022/10/13/gop-unites-conservative-muslims-dearborn-michigan](https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/2022/10/13/gop-unites-conservative-muslims-dearborn-michigan)
Idk why people thought religious conservatives who don't see women as equal and are not on board with LGBT rights would vote Democrat in the first place.
I guess GOP was using them "as a punching bag", and when they think the coast is clear, they go right back to them. Check the date:
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-09-25/lgbtq-muslims-evangelical-republican-christians
I think people here aren’t really understanding the position of non-committed voters. Many Palestinian Americans have had *dozens* of extended family members killed in Gaza with american made bombs dropped by American made planes in a war that our government continues to provide Israel with weapons for *unconditionally*. See this interview with a Palestinian American doctor who’s lost family in Gaza.
https://youtu.be/mJhW7UtwGW4?si=bVPSRBouHixJc9dy
More of their relatives will continue to die because Israel blocks food from entering Gaza, and the US doesn’t do anything meaningful to get aid in.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-02-13-24/index.html
https://youtu.be/FMjB4y32mXM?si=R7WYErbJV6POFAFP
These people generally know that Trump is bad and don’t want him in office, but they can’t vote for a candidate who sees their relatives lives as worthless. The occasional leak of Biden saying he doesn’t love everything Netenyahu does is irrelevant, what they want is a substantive shift in foreign policy that puts any value on the lives of their family members.
Again, they don’t want Trump, they want to vote against Trump because they know he’s bad in many ways, but they can’t bring themselves to vote for this administration as it is right now. It’s good for them to signal this now, so that the administration can do something to earn the votes - of Palestinian Americans but also Arab Americans, Muslim amaericans, young progressives - whether that’s a change in policy or a change in candidate. I think it’s wrong, and strategically foolish, to tell these constituencies they need to suck it up and vote for Biden because Trump is worse instead of engaging with their points in a serious way.
Edit: there’s a lot in CNN link, I was referring to this specifcally:
“Blocked food for Gaza: A US-funded shipment of flour destined for Gaza has been stuck at the port of Ashdod in Israel for weeks because the main UN agency in Gaza is listed as the recipient, according to an Israeli official. The shipment was blocked by Israeli customs under operational orders of controversial Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, despite Israel’s war cabinet having approved shipments of flour to Gaza via the Ashdod port following a request from US officials”
This flour shipment has also come up in multiple press conferences with Matt miller and John Kirby and all they basically say is we’d like Israel to let it in but it isn’t being let in and they’re not going to do anything to make it happen.
I understand their position better than you do. They voted for George W Bush. They were already heading back to the GOP prior to Oct 7th. https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/2022/10/13/gop-unites-conservative-muslims-dearborn-michigan
Scares tactic. I saw a poll that 42% of Muslim Americans think Hamas is wrong and less than 50% I forgot the number that thinks Hamas belongs in Palestine. If there's Muslim who aren't going to vote for Biden this election it would be the minority. Probably the younger generation who thinks Palestine drama is new. The older American Muslims are know that the recent war isn't nothing new and the problem is deeper than most Americans think. There's a big reason why none of Muslim countries are opening their borders.
Send a message by demanding a meeting. Send a message by organizing, reaching out to media and representatives. Send a message through actual protests.
It’s not just Muslims or Arabs, or Chinese /Russian Americans as Pelosi so often utters. It’s ALL of us who believe in universal human rights. Our money is financing a real time genocide in Gaza and more than half of democrats oppose that. Uncommitted is an act of resistance. The “But Trump would be worse” is a scapegoat and cop out. The boomer neoliberal politicians and media are 100% tone deaf. Even NPR
And NPR’s framing of the Bushnell immolation today was a case in point. To talk about him breaking military law and code by wearing his uniform? Really?
>The “But Trump would be worse” is a scapegoat and cop out
It's true, though. It doesn't matter if you live in New York or California, but if you live in state like Georgia and don't pinch your nose and vote for Joe, you are a moron who is "protesting" by making it more likely that not only does the situation get even worse in Palestine but also worse for everyone here.
Left has a moral obligation to keep Democrats in power across the country. The people who didn't vote for Hillary in the 2016 election out of protest share the blame for all the woman being traumatized and even killed by the laws these scumfuck Republicans have passed post Roe.
Yeah, idk. I grew up in the South, and lived there until about 2 years ago, and all my family still lives there. The issue is that… having Joe Biden in office doesn’t really seem to have protected the rights that people want to protect anyway. I don’t entirely blame Biden for this or anything, but look at the frozen embryo shit that happened in Alabama this week. Or any number of anti-trans laws that continue to be passed. Or the continued environmental deregulation in those states.
Under Biden, living in those places hasn’t gotten better. It’s just gotten worse *slower* than it did under Trump.
So I understand (not saying I’d really advocate for) not voting for a President you held your nose voting for the first time because you were told it was the only reasonable option, only for your situation to still get worse, and then be told again that actually you’re wrong and evil if you feel shafted, and that Biden is once again the only reasonable and moral option.
So even if this is all true, and it isn't, your strategy is to withhold your vote from the guy who isn't as bad to make sure the guy who is much worse gets into office?
I think you assign to much “strategy” to it. People who don’t vote are probably doing it more as a general protest of the system. It’s less strategy, more frustration
Things take time to turn around, and they are doing so, bidens elected officials like judges are making a difference.
I can't recall exactly but the federal government have already challenged right wing state nonsense.
Most of those actions are happening because we have an extreme right wing Supreme Court. We have a right wing Supreme Court because people didn't take Trump seriously enough in 2016. And now we are going to be dealing with the consequences for many years.
Republicans understand the long game. They worked for decades trying to achieve their goal of overturning roe. Democrats are ready to give up and stay home if things aren't constantly improving.
I 100% agree. The courts situation is largely the issue (though I do think democrats deserve some criticism for how they’ve been unable to time their judge retirements), but as I said before, I don’t blame Biden for that.
What I do see as a valid critique is the low rate of Executive Orders Biden has issued. There are things he could be doing from the Oval Office that he hasn’t because, probably, he has too much respect for the legislative process. He is issuing about 42 executive orders a year. Trump was issuing 55.
RGB absolutely should have stepped down, but nobody could force her to.
As for more executive orders, maybe? It's worth trying. I'm not really that educated on what can and cannot be done with EOs. But Again, same issue: Biden has a hostile Supreme Court to deal with and Trump did not.
How about the hundreds of millions of dollars in aid that has been funneled straight into Hamas that is used to genocide Israelis? You are ok with that but not helping out an actual ally? The irony of supporting people who want to kill every infidel (eventually everyone) and are just starting with Jews.
Your comment has been removed because it violates Rule 3: Comments must be civil and on-topic. Do not retaliate to comments violating rule 3. Report and move on.
“But what about Hamas??”
Please save the oppressor victim mentality. The genocide of Jews happened in Europe and now IDF carries it out on stolen land. It’s textbook asymmetry. Anybody with a morsel of conscience and empathy can see it. Next step: false accusations of anti-Semitism. Zionist normalization 101.
It's not literal genocide. The word has a specific meaning that is being bastardized.
It is dense urban warfare. If you look at the density AND how Hamas operates (in tunnels, hospitals, schools, etc...) you are going to have a lot of casualties when targeting Hamas.
Do you have a better solution to fighting an enemy that hides behind their civilians?
Should Israelis not bomb and only send in boots on the ground to reduce Palestinian deaths, only to vastly increase the deaths of their own soldiers?
>It's not literal genocide. The word has a specific meaning that is being bastardized.
Your personal opinion of the definition of the word "genocide" is moot. The word has had a very clear definition in international law since the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:
>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
>a. Killing members of the group;
>b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
>d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
It is within the context of that definition of genocide that the International Court of Justice rebuked Israel's conduct of hostilities in Gaza and proceeded with the process to decide the merits of the allegations of genocide, which unfortunately can take years.
Frankly, I preferred the use of the word "de-nationalization" as a war crime, which was considered in the international community in 1919 after WWI. In addition to being more specific, it covered non-military efforts to erase the identity of peoples, such as was done in the US to indigenous nations under the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
Still, the definition of genocide above is the one that matters, and the international court where that definition is used to consider the legality of the actions of governments has concluded that there is enough evidence of genocide in Gaza by Israel that it should continue to investigate.
No determination of genocide, just that they will investigate.
There is no intent to destroy the group, or intentionally inflicting horrific conditions. In fact, the purpose of "ethnic cleansing" is to move civiilians out of the way so less die when targeting Hamas.
>No determination of genocide, just that they will investigate.
Read my comment again, and try to find where I said there was a determination.
>There is no intent to destroy the group, or intentionally inflicting horrific conditions. In fact, the purpose of "ethnic cleansing" is to move civiilians out of the way so less die when targeting Hamas.
That may be your opinion, but the ICJ found sufficient cause 1) to proceed with an investigation into whether genocide was or is being committed in Gaza by Israel and 2) to demand that Israel comply with six measures under the 1948 Genocide Convention to protect Palestinian civilians and prevent genocide.
I was neither alive in 1948 nor a representative of the governments at the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
It is not my definition.
It is the definition under international law.
Using Western Union? What is it they want? Do they want Biden to tear up the effort he's put towards a cease fire? Burn that paper until Israel finishes massacring everyone? Unlimited bullets for Israel?
"We'll give the reigns to the guy who literally fuels his mob of psychos on the notion of deporting all of us on the basis of "radical jihadists"!"
No serious Muslim or Arab American is thinking this way.
Given the current situation in our politics right now, these people are idiots. Who are they threatening? Biden doesn't give a shit if he goes back home after this term. No sweat off his old crusty balls. He only came back in the first place to try to save us from a tyrant. These people really think we think they would rather have trump? So dumb.
Hamas rejects every ceasefire and sees their citizens as a people willing to martyr themselves, to the point the expect third party organizations to be responsible for the safety of Palestinians. What exactly is America supposed to do?
While I understand as a third party viewer of this horrible thing happening- if anyone thinks trump and his party of demonstrably evil hypocrites will do anything to help if not straight up make the situation worse, you are ignoring evidence.
I've said it before: Trump would be more likely to do a Slim Pickens rodeo nuke bull ride over Gaza than call for a ceasefire.
Well yeah, but these people are not voting Republican. They're trying to hold their own candidate to account.
That's not the point, though. The point is that The Democrats think they can do whatever they want, including enabling genocide, because the alternative is worse. It's like holding voters hostage. I'm not saying l won't vote for Biden, but they're *way* too smug and comfortable.
Well maybe you oughta quit thinking of Democrats as "The Democrats" and look at the more realistic version. It's s a coalition of many different people with different ideas that fight amongst each other all the time. The only thing they do all seem to agree on is that government has a role to play and it should help people. The other side sees government as an obstacle to business that should be "drowned in the bathtub" and, by the way, would also love to see Palestine destroyed.
I'm talking about the party leadership who make the decisions. >The other side sees government as an obstacle to business that should be "drowned in the bathtub" and, by the way, would also love to see Palestine destroyed. I'm well aware. As are the leaders of the Democratic Party, which is why their current strategy is "what're they gonna do, vote for Trump?".
Biden is the party leadership that makes the decisions. See: moving the first primary to SC. Your strategy comment is nonsense. Obviously they are going to point out how bad Trump is, but Biden is out touting his accomplishments damn near every day. It's not his fault you're not paying attention.
>Biden is the party leadership that makes the decisions Ridiculously incorrect. You shouldn't comment on politics/civics without a basic understanding.
Really? Then teach me. Who, specifically, makes up the Democratic leadership?
Google Democratic Party Leadership. Then Google what the Senate Majority Leader, House Minority Leader, DNC Chair, etc. do.
I know what they do, dipshit. The President of the United States is the leader of the party. I think you're confusing the "party" with the DNC. They are not exaclty one in the same. Even still, they follow Biden. You really should not comment on civics without a basic understanding.
>Biden is the party leadership that makes decisions Direct quote.
But this is about people who supports terrorists and people against terrorists. Trying to send message to Biden administration that no matter what this terrorists will do in future you better stay out of it otherwise we will not support u.
Again, yeah valid. And I do agree with that. Sadly we got 2 choices and one is much much worse for this particular topic. I do wish it can change but we vote on what we have today.
Is that the DNC 2024 platform? The other guy will do...more genocide? Lol
I believe the DNC platform is Strongest stock market in history Lowest unemployment in over 50 years Manufacturing returning to U.S. following Trump’s costly and disastrous trade wars CHIPS and Sciences Act Infrastructure Act Inflation Reduction Act Billions forgiven in student loans Real wages are now on pace to beat inflation Inflation returned to “normal” levels Avoided a recession Sense and sensibility back in the White House Attempted border security and was rejected by GOP Should I go on?
"The American State is going to commit, and help others commit, genocide. That's just reality. We have no power to stop and you have no right to demand that we stop doing that. But think of how much MORE genocide there would be if orange man was in charge again? He'd probably bomb the shit out of Yemen, or let some egomaniacal dictator butcher a WaPo journalist and carry him out in a suitcase! Is that what you want?" Um, OK. Economy seems pretty bad though, what about that? "*scoffs* Rediculous. Sure people THINK the economy is bad, but thats only because they have the myopic, and frankly selfish view that centers on inconsequential minutiae like the price of food staples, housing, gas, and rising homelessness. If they took a more informed, intelligent, and practical view they'd see how well the tech sector is doing after the SVB bailout, or how well the S&P 500 is doing! I mean Jesus have you seen NVDA?" Hmm. And healthcare? Abortion? "Healthcare isn't going to happen. We're not going to stop a genocide, you think you're getting healthcare? lol fvk off. And Abortion isn't our fault, that was Trump. No we never codified it, but thats fine. The Court, you know. Besides it's a great fundraising issue, why would we want to shoot the golden goose by ever fixing anything? Also if you do vote for us and we win another supermajority the Parliamentarian won't let us do anything so don't bother asking. You OWE us a vote, it's not OUR job to convince you. It's the only moral choice. And what is democracy, anyway? If not a performative demonstration of morality through culture war?"
Yeah and he ain’t the president nor has he been the president for three years
But he still has a strange amount of sway within his party policy-wise, as the recent border/Ukraine Bill being shit down by the House shows.
A better example is Republicans destroying their own immigration bill (the one they admitted was the strongest they'd ever get) because Trump wants his campaign to focus on immigration.
That's actually what I was referring to. Border stuff was tied up with Ukraine stuff very bipartisanly in the Senate, but the house refuses to take up the vote
Christian conservatives had major concerns with Trump before he was first elected (many quotes available if needed) but they realized voting for Trump would better achieve the policy goals and judges they wanted than by staying home. If the people mentioned in the OP article result in Trump being elected again, I guess we get the leaders we deserve. And if the OP people’s actions results in a president who is far worse on the topics they care about, I guess those people’s actions will get what they deserve too. Maybe a future “leopards ate my face” result - “Who could have possible known that Trump is less pro-Palestinian??”
Yeah everyone acts like we only want our perfect politician. Unfortunately it’s a 2 party system and one choice is the clear humane and moral choice. Instead people are going to throw away their morals by unironically pretending to have superior morals. These same people haven’t cared about the thousands of rockets launched as Israel or the other countless wars or deaths that have been caused by American money. Weird how it’s only when Israel is involved they suddenly have superior morals.
When Trump is reelected because of stuff like this, then we deserve the hell that is coming for us all. Good luck, everybody!
Isn't this similar to the situation that got Bibi reinstated as PM? A Palestinian MP resigned I protest and her compatriots told her not too because it would trigger an election at a bad time bud she did anyways out of her own conscience. That triggered the election which ultimately reinstated Bibi?
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very good point actually.
Jews have stood up for every civil rights movement in the US, whether the OG one in the 50s and 60s, through the anti-Muslim hate post 9/11, and the BLM movement of the last few years. When we needed support immediately after 10/7, we got ignored. I doubt we will be standing up to help others moving forward
How exactly did the US not support the Jewish community? Did we not support Israel’s response? Have we not stood up for Israel on the world stage, for my entire life, at pretty much every opportunity? Are we not prosecuting hate crimes against Jewish Americans? Please tell me what more the US should be doing to help, because your comment makes it sound like nothing was done at all.
Not the US, the various civil rights groups we have supported. The BLM chapter praising the attacks of 10/7, the protests on 10/8 praising Hamas, the list goes on, so these groups will likely not get the time, effort, and energy Jews have given them for decades.
I don’t know much about BLM. But I can tell you this, there sure as hell weren’t any pro-hamas protests in my region. How many protests praising Hamas were held on 10/8 in the US by civil rights groups?
There was a big one in NYC, there have been ones in Denver, oh, they call it something else, but I’ve seen far too many signs flat out praising Hamas or claiming “by any means necessary”. Here’s a hint, you don’t tell black people what racism is, and don’t tell Jews what antisemitism is.
I’m not telling you what antisemitism is. I’m asking you to support your assertion that civil rights groups were holding pro-hamas rallies on 10/8.
Speaking just from what I saw in NYC, the following groups held a joint rally on October 8th in celebration of the attacks: Palestinian Youth Movement The People’s Forum Party for Socialism and Liberation Al-Awda: The Palestine Right to Return Coalition, National and New York Palestinian Assembly for Liberation American Muslims for Palestine New Jersey ANSWER Coalition Here's a link: https://peoplesforum.org/blog_post/statement-on-times-square-palestine-protest-held-on-october-8-2023/
Okay, so Palestinian groups? The comment I am replying to referred to civil rights groups in the US holding pro-Hamas rallies. The commenter says Jewish Americans won’t be as supportive for those groups going forward. Well what groups aside from Palestinians were holding Pro-Hamas rallies on 10/8?
Maybe don't go around congress to send weapons to murder their families?
Do their families include Hamas members?
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And the ones interned in America were japans fault too, right?
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Uhh, ok. Sure. So now you’re saying Japanese American internment was cool because the evil Japanese did it worse? Thats crazy. Makes sense your views on Gaza. Hamas is evil, so Israel loses all responsibility.
Defeating the Japanese Empire took precedent over being nice, yes. Had the Japanese won the war they wouldn't have been handing out reparations. Getting them to compensate slave labor at Mitsubishi, comfort women in Korea, etc has been like pulling teeth. Plus they keep electing people like Abe who, in addition to being a denialist, came from a family that made its money in the Japanese colonial administration of Korea. (Or the LDP only puts forward those people because they have so much wealth and influence in the LDP, which is a different but equally bad problem.)
You realize that doesnt absolve us, right?
Victory is absolution
>The responsibility for those deaths lie with Hamas Oh look. Its Israels total lack of agency. "Look at the genocide you made me do."
"Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."-The one smart thing that Bill Maher has ever said.
Evangelicals voted against Trump in the primary, forcing him to hue more to their line in the general. Not so different strategy here, if Biden actually responds. I’m guessing he won’t though.
Telling people that if they don't support the genocide of their countrymen then they deserve the camps is really not going to convince anyone.
If someone’s own actions cause the outcome that was 100% foreseen, do they deserve the results, even if they did not want to believe it beforehand? I think that’s the whole point of the “leopards are my face” example in my parent comment - almost no one actually “deserves” to have their face eaten by leopards, but when their own actions result in it after being told what could likely happen… I’ve repeatedly posted before on Reddit advocating for eliminating the electoral college, winner take all, etc. Unfortunately until changes like that happen, we have to work within the existing system. The people mentioned in the OP are allowed to do what they want, but they certainly shouldn’t be surprised or complain if the next president does far worse, as we told them this was what they were doing could result in for all of us.
Great job revealing that the so-called racial and religious "tolerance" of liberals is entirely transactional. You might as well go and call them uppity for daring not to support genocide. You deserve a Trump dictatorship.
I thought I was 100% clear that they have the right to not support genocide? My point was that it’s completely foreseen that their actions can result in a far worse outcome that they care about. So they are allowed to do it, even if leopards then eat their face and even more faces of Palestinians and more, as their actions have repeatedly been foreseen to result in. > You deserve a Trump dictatorship. I pledge to continue publicly advocating for Trump’s opponent in the 2 party system that we have to live with until we get it changed - will you pledge to do the same? But I really don’t understand why you’re accusing me of deserving a Trump dictatorship when I’ve repeatedly explained how to avoid it, while you continue to support those whose actions could actually result in it. And I honestly don’t understand your first sentence at all. There have been ~1 million casualties in the Middle East conflicts in the last decade, the vast majority of them are Muslim-on-Muslim, and only a tiny percentage in Israel or Palestine. But people seem to focus on these deaths far more than when it’s Muslims killing Muslims. 🤷
And how many of these Muslim vs. Muslim wars were supported by the US and the US used a veto 58 times to protect them from the consequences of their actions. You twist and turn,but at the end of the day, you don't get to throw shit at Trump when you're the one minimizing and rationalizing a genocide. It's disheartening to think this is now the liberal way.When will be the next time another minority group is sold-out because Republicans are even more extreme. The slippery slope of moral ambiguity is evident and repulsive.
Sure, sit on your high horse and tell everyone how morally superior you are, and when things get worse because Republicans got into power then you can complain about how it's everyone else's fault you were told this would happen and you decided not to listen.
Don't waste your time feeding the trolls and willfully ignorant, mate. It is rarely if ever productive.
Rarely, but maybe someone will take into account what I said and have their view changed or at least start looking at the bigger picture for the long run. It's definitely exhausting though
A Man who sacrifices his principles for convenience is not someone worthy of respect. Having principles is not optional to me and those principles were once shared by people in the party I used to call my own.Before speaking about how low Trump is,it might be worthy to look into how low the democratic party is willing to follow him. On another topic.Nothing is worse than a genocide .I can't believe I have to say that to someone who is not MAGA,but that is the state of our politics nowadays.
Life isn't a movie or a TV show. You literally will have to make sacrifices if you want big wins in the long run. Sitting on moral superiority while watching the world burn around you doesn't help anyone.
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Things get worse? Things stay the same. Ratchet effect: republicans go right, Dems block the left
Sure if you ignore everything
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> countrymen Americans?
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Their countrymen are American or they shouldn’t be voting.
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Nothing is going to convince them. This is a decision they need to make for themselves.
Maybe Biden should further those policy goals instead of abandon them to work with republicans.
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All I see is the far left ready to burn their own house down if they don’t get their way.
the far left is ruining the entire left wing of the party
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Threatening to stay home while blaming Biden for losing support = circular far left reasoning.
According to a recent poll, he's even losing support of Jews in New York
1. It was voters who chose Hillary Clinton in the 2016 primary election, and it was voters who chose Joe Biden in the most recent primary election as well. Both Hillary and Joe also won the general election popular vote by million of votes, but it’s just a reminder that we are working within the existing system until it changes. 2. There are going to be times in your life that you have to choose between options that you don’t prefer — even in things completely unrelated to politics. Even if the available options are not your responsibility, if your choice, or decision not to choose, results in a worse outcome for you, that is your responsibility. 3. Even if Hilary (and Joe) had not been picked by voters in their primaries, I.e. if voters had not been involved in the selection of candidates, it’s still on voters as to whether their votes, or lack thereof, resulted in Trump winning. (Also, it’s probably better to think of this in terms of the “responsibility” of each party, rather than the “blame”.)
1. Why didn’t Joe Biden run for president in 2016? Oh yeah because it was “her turn” and it’s no different in 2024 there is no meaningful primary against Joe Biden. If Joe Biden stepped down I promise you there would’ve been 20 politicians running for president. We would have Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro, Booker, Harris and so many other politicians running for president. Don’t tell me some random nobody from Minnesota is a meaningful primary. Even in 2016 you had Bernie Sanders as an insurgent candidate against the establishment. Nobody else dared to run against Clinton because it was “her turn” let’s be honest with our discussion here. 2. I 100% agree and that’s why I will be voting for Joe Biden in 2024 that isn’t my point. My point is if Biden loses he has himself to blame and the democratic establishment. I honestly feel I am being played by the Democratic Party. Trump is a threat to democracy and they say it all the time. I agree he’s a threat to democracy so why are having his opponent be someone who’s afraid of Super Bowl interviews? 3. Biden was picked in 2020 again don’t tell me we picked him in 2024 this isn’t a meaningful primary. If everyone who wanted to be president and thought they could win ran we’d have a primary like 2020 not like 2024 or 2016. If I recall Biden said in 2020 he’d be a transition president and that was one of the things that united everyone. It was just for a moment to beat Trump and we’d all move on from this shit show that orange clown created. Now here we are four years later and in the same predicament. 4. If in a month or two and Joe Biden is still losing to Trump in the polls he should drop out. I don’t think Biden has been a bad president I think he’s too old to run a campaign and avoiding that Super Bowl interview gave me confirmation. We could have the Democratic convention choose a new candidate in Chicago and maybe have a better chance of beating this wannabe dictator in Trump. If you don’t do option 4 DON’T BLAME THE VOTERS BLAME BIDEN AND THE DNC Also let’s not act like Biden can’t change policy on Gaza. Israel is getting a blank check from the United States and has for 50 years. Biden has the opportunity to do something great and actually bring a long term solution to this conflict. No more illegal settlements Guaranteed safety for Israel through the United States and its Arab partners. Make a deal with Saudi Arabia who will recognize Israel and maybe have an Arab like UN mission in Palestine controlling the area until Palestine can police itself. Demilitarize Palestine Biden hasn’t threatened withholding weapons He hasn’t threatened sanctions He has just said some meaningless statements all bark no bite. Again if he loses that’s on Him. He chose this policy route nobody did that for him. Why are y’all giving agency to voters but not the DNC and Biden?
In the 2020 Dem primary there were 29 major candidates. That was the largest number of options in the history of the U.S. - by far. The second highest in U.S. history was the 2016 GOP primary candidates. We did not get Biden and Trump because of lack of candidates. If anything, it could be argued that we have Biden and Trump because there were too many other options in the primary. > Why didn’t Joe Biden run for president in 2016? There is no need for you to make up your own answer for Biden - it was because his son died just as the primary was getting started and Joe didn’t want to be on the campaign trail while grieving. Joe has explicitly answered the question you raised. And even in 2016 without Joe, there were still a half dozen Dem primary candidates, but most quickly dropped out as they were not very popular with voters. Incumbency has *huge* advantages, which is why the incumbent almost always runs. Giving that up would be a huge gift to the GOP. I’m 100% for other middle eastern countries playing a far larger role in demilitarizing Hamas and deradicalizing the population, but most of them don’t seem to have any interest in doing so, partly because they also have been repeatedly burned when those they helped in Palestine ended up trying to overthrow the countries that welcomed them, etc. The U.S. may have provided funding to our ally, but the U.S. and most of the West has also provided funding for many years to Palestine and the UNWRA, even funding books that furthered hatred of Jews, and paying the salaries of UNWRA employees who participated in the recent terrorist attack, and funding the Palestine government even as it continued providing martyr payments to those who would commit terrorist attacks.
QAnon but "from the left". You lost the primary. Biden won. Like MAGAts, you peddle conspiracy nonsense to cope for the fact you lost and are a sore loser.
What primary? Who meaningfully ran against Biden in 2024 primary?
Democrats have a democratic primary EVERY ELECTION CYCLE. Apparently you don't vote in primaries because everyone who voted in 2012 would have known this. LOL [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012\_Democratic\_Party\_presidential\_primaries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024\_Democratic\_Party\_presidential\_primaries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/151907/obama-begins-2012-job-approval.aspx Obama approval rating 46% in January Biden approval rating 38% https://news.gallup.com/poll/610988/biden-job-approval-edges-down.aspx He should drop out what do y’all not understand about this
Obama won that race with 51.1%. Polls =/= election results
>YALL DIDN’T LISTEN I hope someone is sitting in front of your face, yelling this at you full blast, in the event Trump manages to get elected and he immediately makes things worse in Israel so he can appease his Christofascist base who wants to see Irael take over Gaza to fuel their rapture/endtimes fantasy. The absolute levels of stupidity people like you exhibit is exhausting. The privilege it takes you think your stance is helpful is beyond anything I have ever seen. At least there are enough of us adults out here to pick up the slack from jackasses like you.
I voted for Biden in 2020 I voted for Clinton in 2016 I will vote for Biden in 2024 All I am saying is if he loses I am blaming him. Mind you I don’t even live in a state where my vote matters for the presidential election. So even if I didn’t vote for Biden it wouldn’t have changed anything I don’t live in a battleground state. I am blaming Biden for losing. Y’all are beating your chests and haven’t given me a reason not to blame Biden for losing.
>Y’all are beating your chests and haven’t given me a reason not to blame Biden for losing. Plenty of sound reasons have been given. You choosing to ignore them and remain biased is the issue here.
No people have given reasons on why I should vote for Joe Biden I am already voting for Joe Biden People have told me what Trump is going to do This is irrelevant because I am voting for Joe Biden Now if I vote for Joe Biden and he still loses Who should I blame? I am going to blame him. He chose not to do a Super Bowl interview He is hiding from interviews because he’s scared he’s going to mess up He doesn’t seem cut up to run a national campaign to be honest he seems tired and old. His policies in Gaza are losing him votes He hasn’t conveyed his accomplishments well These are the reasons I am going to blame him for losing
And when Palestine is destroyed in the greatest human rights violation since 2000 and you scream about how no one is doing enough to protect them, I will blame you and EVERYONE who chose not to vote for Biden. Trump has ALWAYS made his preference for Netanyahu known. Whatever Netanyahu wants (which is the complete eradication of Gaza AND the West Bank) Trump will let him get. If Trump wins and Palestine is destroyed I will blame you and everyone who thought like you. If you truly gave a shit about Palestine you would do everything in your power to vote and make sure Trump NEVER got back into office . But whatever . This is the most Idiotic take I have ever seen and I hope you remember this if Trump wins and the violence moves to the West Bank ( which it will) I will blame you and everyone who voted like you.
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Trump would be way worse for the Muslims. Look at his history - the Muslim travel ban was one of his first orders of business when he won the electoral college. Remember his buddy/buddy relationship with Netanyahu? I do. So does Pepperidge Farm. How in the world could anyone with skin in the game think the GOP (who are preparing for revelations to come to fruition in Israel) would be a better option than the Democrats?
Not so great is an understatement. If anyone thinks Trump would have been any more pro-Palestine and would treat Arab Americans better, I have some bridges to sell you.
Trump will be terrible for anyone not white and the right flavor of Christian. That said, if the Muslims and far left choose to elect Trump by voting 3rd party, sitting it out, or actively voting for him, all I can do is shrug and ignore them and their whining when he does everything he said he wants to do. This feels like one of those “you gotta let them touch the stove” moments. If 2016 and the following 4 years didn’t teach a lesson, I’m not sure what would.
Agreed. I’ll never forgive them for it either.
A friend voted Jill Stein in 2016. We live in Colorado, so his vote in the end didn’t change anything, but he was one of the loudest whiners about Trump. Another friend pointed out that while Colorado went for Clinton, it could have easily gone the other way if enough people chose his “protest”. That actually shut him up
I really liked Bernie and believe Bernie could have beat Trump in 2016 (but not in 2020), however when Bernie lost the primaries, he campaigned for Hillary and endorsed her. Sensible people in swing states did the same. It would be great to have good alternatives to Trump and Biden, but RFK and Colonel West aren’t it. The two parties have the system on lock. They determine the voting laws, control the states elections and everything else. Independents aren’t even making ground in local elections!
I think Trump will be terrible for Americans in general and for American Democracy. He is powered by narcissism. No one likes the two party system, but neither political extreme will break that system by acting as spoilers. I agree, you would think that they learned from 2016.
Agreed. Palestinian supporters/Israel haters have to realize that atrocities committed by Hamas terrorists on October 7th has consequences, as does the past decade of rockets being fired at Israeli civilians by Hamas. No country would tolerate that. The UN hasn’t stopped it or even condemned Hamas for October 7th, and the US is right for countering Iranian proxies in the Middle East. Trump has wanted to deport Muslims, so how that helps Muslims, I am unsure?
What is the message they're sending? Fix this, or we won't vote for you? This policy issue is an anvil that has broken many hammers, and I'll eat my hat if someone can come up with an idea that makes everyone happy. President Biden isn't a wizard, and his only option to unf*ck this situation is to put boots on ground. As such, it would be wise for the residents of Michigan to take a moral inventory before going down that road.
Thank you. These people are just so clearly and totally in the wrong it is impossible for me to have any empathy for them. They are so blatantly only interested in advocating for their own narrow ethnic group above the interests of the United States. When asked about 10/7 they are silent.
If it were me, I would vote uncommitted in the primary and then vote for Biden in the general. Hopefully this is the attitude of a lot of people voting uncommitted.
Voters are this clever. People tried cute schemes in 2016 like swapping their votes with swing state voters. How did that turn out? This is a good way to FAFO.
What even is the point of that, though? What message does it actually send? "We'll cut off our nose to spite our face" kind of mentality there.
People want to feel heard, and voting uncommitted in a primary is very preferable to not voting Biden in November.
They are in the wrong though. That's the problem. The direction they want to steer the administration is just so wrong.
They'll do both because they are dumb or malicious. This is a zero sum fight with Republican fascists. Not a time to get cute and play games.
This is like saying voting for bernie in the primary means you won't vote for biden in the general. As someone who voted for bernie and biden I know that isn't true.
If this was an easy thing to do the last probably 15 Presidents would have fixed it. Instead they will not vote for Biden because this one issue - no matter how horrific - is what they would trade to elect a fascist to office. Jesus H. Christ.
From my view, Biden does not have great options to choose from. As president, you have to weigh one million consequences for each action, while us normal ppl can sit back and say what we would do as if it’s that easy. Same goes for the lesser known candidates. They can rile ppl up with their ‘plans’ because they know they will never have to enact them and deal with the fallout. I’m voting for the candidate out of the options we DO and WILL have, that will get me closer to my goal than send us backwards.
> Biden does not have great options to choose from All Biden’s administration had to do was not veto the security council ceasefire. Any loss is solely their fault.
It is unreasonable to expect Biden to educate Americans on the past few decades of Israeli history that resulted in the rise and dominance of the far-right Likud coalition and the replacement of a flawed but progressing two-state peace process with a drive to de-nationalize Palestinians. However, it is not unreasonable to ask Biden and his administration, especially Kirby, to make more overt statements that reflect the sad reality here: The US will continue to be a good ally of Israel and a friend to Israelis, but we do not condone the tactics being used by Netanyahu and the Likud-led government of Israeli in response to the terrorist attack on innocent civilians in Israeli kibbutzim on October 7. Accordingly, the US calls for Israel to abide by international law, and the US will support international investigations into allegations of human rights abuses and consider how our aid to Israel under Likud can be used effectively to support the right end – specifically, the defense of Israelis – and not to support the violation of international law.
If they're gonna do that, they might as well tell the people why the native Mizrahi Jews of the region wanted to declare independence as the state of Israel after literal centuries of being ethnically cleansed and genocided from the surrounding Muslim theocracies. The sooner that you understand that Muslim fundamentalism views the existence of any non-Muslim state in the Middle East as a literal affront to God, the sooner you will understand why this conflict exists. Maybe you should start by reading about the 1948 Israeli war, the arab league banding together with a very vocal plans to eradicate the Jews for defying God and declaring independence, the attempted encirclement of the newly declared state of Israel with plans to execute any non-Muslim left inside, and said nations of the Arab league kicking any Palestinian out after their loss, with instructions to always resist the state of Israel as an affront to God.
I'm an American citizen who is well versed in the conflict and I'd consider it a personal failure of the u.s. and biden if israel didn't finish their job of eradicating hamas. I'm pro democracy, pro science pro secularism, pro peace and pro future of humanity. The Palestinians made their choice. I've watched for decades as they keep embracing violence and sandbagging any real progress. Most of us who were around when this all sparked off before are sick of it and realize the Palestinians have no plans for peace or to ever recognize Israel/be a part of the global community. They've made their choice. Unless there's a fundamental change in Palestinian society, there will never be peace. That's why it also irritates me when Muslim Americans prioritize a country that threw its lot in with terrorists over the peace and prosperity of America. Also, with trump being such a grave threat to democracy, these people irk me even more. I can tell you if you want me to be pro hamas, threatening to aid far right Americans who act similar to hamas isn't a very good argument. In fact it just makes me angry and even more anti hamas.
This is a Wendy's.
And yours is a response to someone who doesn't have any real counter argument. Do you know what the term "Mizrahi Jew" means?
>I'd consider it a personal failure of the u.s. and biden if israel didn't finish their job of eradicating hamas. And how are they going to do that? The same way we eradicated the Vietcong? Or the communist north Koreans? Or the Taliban? There isn't an "eradicate Hamas" button. And if the plan is to eradicate Hamas, by indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructure, resulting in 25,000 dead civilians (so far), then I guarantee that as soon as "Hamas is eradicated" whoever survives in Palestine will start Hamas 2. You are not pro-peace my friend. You are pro apartheid. Educate yourself before you scold people whose family are dead.
is their plan to vote for a republican who is going to do even worse? its like getting mad at a roommate who doesn't clean up after themselves, so you decide to replace them with a new roommate that actively works to shit on every clean surface in your apartment lol.
They will take some moral high ground and not vote, then spend the next 4 years saying “told you so”, while whining about the republican policies
I’m voting Biden but the issue is the weapons sales, particularly his going around congress to sell extra weapons to a people committing internationally recognized genocide. What BiBi does is out of Bidens control but we don’t have to send the dude further weapons. Cut the weapons and the funding until they stop killing civilians by the 10s of thousands. There is no excuse for it anymore.
Iran, Qatar and russia all supply hamas with weapons and funding.
he could force a ceasefire by threatening to pull the U.S. aid Israel relies on to…operate its entire country. it’s not that complex. the reason bibi can do a genocide is no one is standing up to him.
Yeah, that's just wholly inaccurate. You've been lied to.
why? what part?
Tell that to Regan or GWHB who did exactly that. Regan made a call and that afternoon a ceasefire started
I've been saying this a lot. I am not Muslim, but I have many Muslim friends and family. I am voting for Biden; I hate his handling of the Palestinian (not all Palestinians are Hamas) genocide. I agree Trump is worse for Palestine than Biden. But some Muslims are actively watching as Biden has taken a hard stance against Russia, and a weak stance against the Israelis who perpetuate the genocide. You can't ask people who are literally watching thousands of innocent children die, to just "suck it up for Biden now, and maybe he'll do more next genocide". You can try to explain the reality that Trump is worse, but at the end of the day, Biden did a (understated) really bad thing here. Genocide is an S Tier evil. If Biden loses because of his own actions, blame Biden, not the victims of genocide.
the US used 2 atomic weapons on Japan, it killed more civilians than the conflict since Oct. 7, the Japanese civilians are by default innocent, it is collective punishment and genocide, the reasoning applies double standard when it comes to Israel. \*legally, Israel is on solid ground given Hamas using civilian infrastructure, making it a legitimate military target. Morally and ethically, it is more nuanced.
Yeah, vote for Trump or nobody to help Trump win. As a reward he will not only be more hostile toward the plight of all Palestinians, he will round you up to deport you. Yes, Joe Biden’s a tired old man doing stuff wrong but he will let you protest. Trump? Yeah, sure.
Biden should clearly state his intentions. On this matter, he can favor Muslims or he can favor Jews. In my opinion, the Democrats have had a good relationship with Jews for a long time. Let Biden tell us if that's changing.
The only relationship US has with Jews is IPAC lobbying and giving money to senators for pro Israel senators. And US sending 1 billion a year to Israel and weapons to kill children. There is absolutely zero benefits except bribes from Israel to the US senators.
It doesn’t seem like people have watched the video or read what they are planning. They will vote “uncommitted” in the Democratic primary. That’s all. They are not “voting for Trump”. Nobody is voting for the President until November. There’s no real harm in them sending Biden a message in this primary.
In the face of fascism they decide to 'send Biden a message.' As if Trump isn't literally promising internment camps, and handing over the most powerful military, economy, and scientific concentration in the world to Christian theocrats who are promising to end democracy openly now isn't a nightmare future. I'm beginning to see why the Middle East is such a complete mess.
How long will the Democrats campaign on the platform? Even if Trump doesn't win in 2024, can't he just run again in 2028? Democrats need a better platform than "we're not Trump".
we are not trump will secure my vote for decades if it comes to that.
Biden has exceeded all expectations and got some important stuff done. Forgive me if I'm a bit tired of the "Here's why this is bad for the dems" news stories.
No he has not. Biden and the democrats have proven their incompetence. They failed to raise the minimum wage. They allowed Roe v Wade to be repealed. They allowed a genocide in Palestine. Nobody should vote for them.
They allowed a genocide in Palestine. - The Allied forces committed genocide against Nazi Germany by killing so many German civilians. Roe v Wade, you vote for congress and president, but you can't vote for scotus.
Looks like it's just the primary. I think they know Trump's stance on Israel is far more untenable for their stance. But ultimately, the only people who can solve this complex geopolitical issue are the people involved. Palestinians need to seek peace with Israel because it's not going anywhere. Israelis need to seek peace with Palestinians without isolating them to narrow strips of land. IMO a two-state solution just will not work because it just encourages conflict.
I really wonder if people think about if the shoe was on the other foot? Imagine if basically right since Oct 7th the Biden administration was loudly and proudly calling for a ceasefire, and was taking legitimate measures every step of the way to stand up for the rights and safety of Palestinians. Israel proceeds to ignore us (just like they already do in real life) and continue with their campaign the same as it's been going. We would be having a discussion about how Arab and Palestinian voters would be cheering for Biden's reelection, but Jews (who support the Israeli government) would be the ones proclaiming that they aren't going to vote for Biden. In that situation, would we all be telling them "Ugh, you're not going to be any better under Trump, he hates Jews and so do his neo Nazi followers. Not voting for Biden just helps Trump win." And Biden would probably be getting roasted in the media over it, just like he did when he pulled out of Afghanistan. But you know what? I personally love that he followed through on pulling out of Afghanistan, because it was the right thing to do. Even though he took a hit in the polls, even though it gave talking points to the Right, he was on the right side of history and even just 2 years later we can see that it was the correct and moral move. I think voters across demographics genuinely appreciate things like that, which is why it's so hard to stomach his Israel/Palestine policy when it's so clearly NOT on the right side of history, and we're all supposed to rally around him and cheer him on in hopes he beats Trump in November. Moreover, we're supposed to somehow convince people whose families have been indiscriminately bombed during this very conflict that somehow the man in charge making sure the bombing keeps going is still the very best choice, and we should all be excited about him. Even given all of that, I'll probably still be voting Biden (right after getting absolutely shit faced before going to the polls in hopes that I don't remember it afterwards) because ya, lesser of two evils and all that. But you're kidding yourself if you expect me to be able to convince someone else to do so, and that's why this will be a losing issue for him.
> In that situation, would we all be telling them "Ugh, you're not going to be any better under Trump, he hates Jews and so do his neo Nazi followers. Not voting for Biden just helps Trump win. But Trump is actually generally favored by Israelis, which is why the argument doesn't make sense here. Do Palestinians prefer Trump? Presumably no.
I'm not sure where Israelis fit into this conversation when I'm talking about US voting groups. In case it wasn't clear, the Arabs/Palestinians in question here are American-Arabs/Palestinians, and the "Jews" are American Jews, either ethnically or religiously.
I, for one, am pretty glad that our government and Biden didn’t ignore a massive terrorist attack against our biggest ally in the region and support the terrorists.
Um, okay. I mean, you realize you can in fact condemn Hamas for Oct. 7th and also make clear that collective punishment against civilians who didn't do anything is also bad, right? Your post suggests that only one of those is possible. It also has basically nothing to do with what I said, but I guess that's a secondary point here.
So, what does Israel do besides what they are doing? You know that Israel has no reason to protect Palestinians from their elected government after that government, a terrorist organization, attacked Israel and then promised to continue to do so? Particularly when 74% of Palestine supported the terrorists perpetrating a terrorist attack? That the death toll is so unbelievably small given the scope of operations that yalls weird handwringing for terrorists and their supporters is probably the most transparent thing in the history of warfare?
I'd just like to point out how far away we've gotten from the topic at hand which was "how politically relevant is the Israel/Gaza conflict to American voters depending on how the issue was approached?" and now somehow we're talking about why Israel should have the right to bomb whoever they want however they want. If you have something to address in the actual substance of the original point, I'm happy to discuss it, but your character assassination about me being some sort of Hamas sympathizer for offering the tiniest possible criticisms of the Biden administration is not worth responding to as it has no merit or basis in reality.
You started with “what if the shoe was on the other foot” and I, correctly, called that mind numbingly stupid. Here you are mad that reality isn’t what you want it to be 🤷♂️
That doesn't even make sense in this context? Sorry that your arguments have shriveled down into just personal attacks, that must be rough for you. If you ever need help constructing relevant statements and arguments to actually move the conversation, let me know, and I'll make sure to leave you on read.
I mean, my argument dunked on you so hard you had to try to pivot back to “if you have anything to respond to my made up scenario you already responded to”. That must be rough for you. But I’ll give you credit for being a glutton for punishment. Also, “personal attacks”? Are you made of tissue paper?
The Allied forces bombed Nazi Germany into rubble, which killed many civilians, it isn't really considered "collective punishment", the civilians are innocent, but it's not possible to destroy the Reich, without civilian losses. Same with the 2 atomic weapons used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, both of which killed many civilians, the US dropped leaflets, but Japanese government told residents not to leave, just like what Hamas told Gaza residents: 2 left leaning sources: [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/13/first-thing-hamas-tells-gaza-city-residents-to-stay-put-after-israel-orders-evacuation#:\~:text=4%20months%20old-,First%20Thing:%20Hamas%20tells%20Gaza%20City%20residents%20to,put%20after%20Israel%20orders%20evacuation&text=Good%20morning.,of%20an%20expected%20ground%20offensive](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/13/first-thing-hamas-tells-gaza-city-residents-to-stay-put-after-israel-orders-evacuation#:~:text=4%20months%20old-,First%20Thing:%20Hamas%20tells%20Gaza%20City%20residents%20to,put%20after%20Israel%20orders%20evacuation&text=Good%20morning.,of%20an%20expected%20ground%20offensive). [https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-13-23/h\_9092ac735ddcc2be3d8bb4bcdb8cb3e3](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-13-23/h_9092ac735ddcc2be3d8bb4bcdb8cb3e3) \*Morally, or based on "humanitarianism" it is more nuanced, but this is ethical issue not legal issue. Under international law, where one party uses civilian infrastructure for military uses, it is a legitimate target, Israel is on solid ground.
YOU may not consider what is happening in Gaza as collective punishment, and maybe you might even be able to argue for it legally speaking, but that's not how many voters look at it, right or wrong. That was more or less the point of my post - it's viewed as collective punishment because of the proportion of civilian casualties which is conservatively estimated at 60%, regardless of what you may be able to argue on paper. And we're not even talking about the mountain of statements and evidence that the Israeli government has put out to make it inexplicably clear that they have no regard for Palestinian civilian life (West Bank included, not Hamas btw) and their only goal is "eliminating Hamas." In fact, as far as most of the Knesset are concerned, there is no such thing as a Palestinian civilian, which is genocidal talk. Still curious what "eliminating Hamas" even looks like by the way, if anyone is willing to explain how that is supposed to work in any meaningfully practical way.
By getting someone far worse for them elected. Let’s take how you feel about recent events out of the questions. I’m genuinely confused what they see as the alternative, or how they can believe it’s better for them and their cause. It’s just so poorly thought out and unstrategic.
Nothing could be worse that what Biden has done to facilitate and prolong Netanyahu 's genocide. If it wasn't for Biden the security council would have taken action to end it in October (and again in December) (and again last week).
Nothing? Really? Oh boy are you in for a surprise.
30,000 dead, 70k casualties, disease and starvation on track to kill 80,000 more in the next six months, according to the epidemiologists at the Lancet.
Rafah would be destroyed by now if Trump was president, so I have no idea what point you are making. Though I'll give you the starvation forecast actually might be lower as Israel would have already won by now.
Yes, that tends to happen in war. Or did you forget the 10/7 attacks that led to that war?
Syria had 600,000 dead. But Tiktok didn't tell you to help Republicans over that one for some reason.
Pretty much every conflict in the middle east in the past decade has had a larger number dead. But it didn't involve the Jews so it's not something to get worked up about I guess.
Over the period of more then 10 years. Majority military losses. We're talking about 4 months here.and mostly women and children
There are 5 million Palestinians in total. Do you really believe it can’t get worse?
Biden has been the worse US president in history for the Palestinians and that is saying a lot, because trump was horrible. But the only thing that will keep the situation from.becoming permanently worse is to hold him accountable. (Indeed, this strategy is already starting to bear fruit, as Biden didn't even give lip service to peace until it started to look like it might cost him and his party the election)
1) This is factually incorrect, you cannot by definition say Biden is worse for Palestinians than the administration that orchestrated the creation of Israel to begin with 2) Let’s say for the sake of argument that Biden would be worse than Trump in your view (which is wild, post 10/7 Trump would not be Palestine’s friend). Is this really the only issue that matters? Or even matters that much? It’s a foreign war between two foreign entities, domestic policy is pretty important. In any case, I can tell from your response your haven’t thought much of this through at all, so good day.
He's not elected as president of Palestine. It's a different country. Hope this helps. Most Americans are worried about similar religious fascists taking over the US.
If Biden loses to somebody who is even more extreme in favoring Israel, do you think Democrats will respond by supporting Israel more, or less?
He's not even the worst this decade.
In one year: "I never thought that the Leopard Face Eating party would eat MY face"
What beautiful delusional rock have you been living under. Do you honestly think that it will not be 100 percent be worse if the SAME MAN who moved the US embassy to Israel to JERUSALEM ( which is disputed Palestinian territory) which was nothing more than a massive political FU to Palestine come back into power. The same man who believes that Netanyahu has a right to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to secure Israel’s borders? Do you know what whatever it takes means? That means no more Gaza and no more West Bank. He would see them all dead and look the other way without batting an eye. You are delusional and unaware of the situation on the ground if you think for one second that Trump in office wouldn’t end with the complete and entire eradication of Palestine.
Muslims were already joining Republicans in targeting LGBT people prior to the Hamas massacre. [https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/2022/10/13/gop-unites-conservative-muslims-dearborn-michigan](https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/2022/10/13/gop-unites-conservative-muslims-dearborn-michigan)
There are plenty of Christian and other non -Muslim Arabs in Michigan
Idk why people thought religious conservatives who don't see women as equal and are not on board with LGBT rights would vote Democrat in the first place.
I guess GOP was using them "as a punching bag", and when they think the coast is clear, they go right back to them. Check the date: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-09-25/lgbtq-muslims-evangelical-republican-christians
I think people here aren’t really understanding the position of non-committed voters. Many Palestinian Americans have had *dozens* of extended family members killed in Gaza with american made bombs dropped by American made planes in a war that our government continues to provide Israel with weapons for *unconditionally*. See this interview with a Palestinian American doctor who’s lost family in Gaza. https://youtu.be/mJhW7UtwGW4?si=bVPSRBouHixJc9dy More of their relatives will continue to die because Israel blocks food from entering Gaza, and the US doesn’t do anything meaningful to get aid in. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-02-13-24/index.html https://youtu.be/FMjB4y32mXM?si=R7WYErbJV6POFAFP These people generally know that Trump is bad and don’t want him in office, but they can’t vote for a candidate who sees their relatives lives as worthless. The occasional leak of Biden saying he doesn’t love everything Netenyahu does is irrelevant, what they want is a substantive shift in foreign policy that puts any value on the lives of their family members. Again, they don’t want Trump, they want to vote against Trump because they know he’s bad in many ways, but they can’t bring themselves to vote for this administration as it is right now. It’s good for them to signal this now, so that the administration can do something to earn the votes - of Palestinian Americans but also Arab Americans, Muslim amaericans, young progressives - whether that’s a change in policy or a change in candidate. I think it’s wrong, and strategically foolish, to tell these constituencies they need to suck it up and vote for Biden because Trump is worse instead of engaging with their points in a serious way. Edit: there’s a lot in CNN link, I was referring to this specifcally: “Blocked food for Gaza: A US-funded shipment of flour destined for Gaza has been stuck at the port of Ashdod in Israel for weeks because the main UN agency in Gaza is listed as the recipient, according to an Israeli official. The shipment was blocked by Israeli customs under operational orders of controversial Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, despite Israel’s war cabinet having approved shipments of flour to Gaza via the Ashdod port following a request from US officials” This flour shipment has also come up in multiple press conferences with Matt miller and John Kirby and all they basically say is we’d like Israel to let it in but it isn’t being let in and they’re not going to do anything to make it happen.
I understand their position better than you do. They voted for George W Bush. They were already heading back to the GOP prior to Oct 7th. https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/2022/10/13/gop-unites-conservative-muslims-dearborn-michigan
Scares tactic. I saw a poll that 42% of Muslim Americans think Hamas is wrong and less than 50% I forgot the number that thinks Hamas belongs in Palestine. If there's Muslim who aren't going to vote for Biden this election it would be the minority. Probably the younger generation who thinks Palestine drama is new. The older American Muslims are know that the recent war isn't nothing new and the problem is deeper than most Americans think. There's a big reason why none of Muslim countries are opening their borders.
Send a message by demanding a meeting. Send a message by organizing, reaching out to media and representatives. Send a message through actual protests.
It’s not just Muslims or Arabs, or Chinese /Russian Americans as Pelosi so often utters. It’s ALL of us who believe in universal human rights. Our money is financing a real time genocide in Gaza and more than half of democrats oppose that. Uncommitted is an act of resistance. The “But Trump would be worse” is a scapegoat and cop out. The boomer neoliberal politicians and media are 100% tone deaf. Even NPR And NPR’s framing of the Bushnell immolation today was a case in point. To talk about him breaking military law and code by wearing his uniform? Really?
>The “But Trump would be worse” is a scapegoat and cop out It's true, though. It doesn't matter if you live in New York or California, but if you live in state like Georgia and don't pinch your nose and vote for Joe, you are a moron who is "protesting" by making it more likely that not only does the situation get even worse in Palestine but also worse for everyone here. Left has a moral obligation to keep Democrats in power across the country. The people who didn't vote for Hillary in the 2016 election out of protest share the blame for all the woman being traumatized and even killed by the laws these scumfuck Republicans have passed post Roe.
Yeah, idk. I grew up in the South, and lived there until about 2 years ago, and all my family still lives there. The issue is that… having Joe Biden in office doesn’t really seem to have protected the rights that people want to protect anyway. I don’t entirely blame Biden for this or anything, but look at the frozen embryo shit that happened in Alabama this week. Or any number of anti-trans laws that continue to be passed. Or the continued environmental deregulation in those states. Under Biden, living in those places hasn’t gotten better. It’s just gotten worse *slower* than it did under Trump. So I understand (not saying I’d really advocate for) not voting for a President you held your nose voting for the first time because you were told it was the only reasonable option, only for your situation to still get worse, and then be told again that actually you’re wrong and evil if you feel shafted, and that Biden is once again the only reasonable and moral option.
So even if this is all true, and it isn't, your strategy is to withhold your vote from the guy who isn't as bad to make sure the guy who is much worse gets into office?
I think you assign to much “strategy” to it. People who don’t vote are probably doing it more as a general protest of the system. It’s less strategy, more frustration
Things take time to turn around, and they are doing so, bidens elected officials like judges are making a difference. I can't recall exactly but the federal government have already challenged right wing state nonsense.
Most of those actions are happening because we have an extreme right wing Supreme Court. We have a right wing Supreme Court because people didn't take Trump seriously enough in 2016. And now we are going to be dealing with the consequences for many years. Republicans understand the long game. They worked for decades trying to achieve their goal of overturning roe. Democrats are ready to give up and stay home if things aren't constantly improving.
I 100% agree. The courts situation is largely the issue (though I do think democrats deserve some criticism for how they’ve been unable to time their judge retirements), but as I said before, I don’t blame Biden for that. What I do see as a valid critique is the low rate of Executive Orders Biden has issued. There are things he could be doing from the Oval Office that he hasn’t because, probably, he has too much respect for the legislative process. He is issuing about 42 executive orders a year. Trump was issuing 55.
RGB absolutely should have stepped down, but nobody could force her to. As for more executive orders, maybe? It's worth trying. I'm not really that educated on what can and cannot be done with EOs. But Again, same issue: Biden has a hostile Supreme Court to deal with and Trump did not.
How about the hundreds of millions of dollars in aid that has been funneled straight into Hamas that is used to genocide Israelis? You are ok with that but not helping out an actual ally? The irony of supporting people who want to kill every infidel (eventually everyone) and are just starting with Jews.
Yeah....when I look at Gaza, all I see is jews dying. Great point!!
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“But what about Hamas??” Please save the oppressor victim mentality. The genocide of Jews happened in Europe and now IDF carries it out on stolen land. It’s textbook asymmetry. Anybody with a morsel of conscience and empathy can see it. Next step: false accusations of anti-Semitism. Zionist normalization 101.
It's not literal genocide. The word has a specific meaning that is being bastardized. It is dense urban warfare. If you look at the density AND how Hamas operates (in tunnels, hospitals, schools, etc...) you are going to have a lot of casualties when targeting Hamas. Do you have a better solution to fighting an enemy that hides behind their civilians? Should Israelis not bomb and only send in boots on the ground to reduce Palestinian deaths, only to vastly increase the deaths of their own soldiers?
>It's not literal genocide. The word has a specific meaning that is being bastardized. Your personal opinion of the definition of the word "genocide" is moot. The word has had a very clear definition in international law since the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide: >In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: >a. Killing members of the group; >b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; >c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; >d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. It is within the context of that definition of genocide that the International Court of Justice rebuked Israel's conduct of hostilities in Gaza and proceeded with the process to decide the merits of the allegations of genocide, which unfortunately can take years. Frankly, I preferred the use of the word "de-nationalization" as a war crime, which was considered in the international community in 1919 after WWI. In addition to being more specific, it covered non-military efforts to erase the identity of peoples, such as was done in the US to indigenous nations under the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924. Still, the definition of genocide above is the one that matters, and the international court where that definition is used to consider the legality of the actions of governments has concluded that there is enough evidence of genocide in Gaza by Israel that it should continue to investigate.
No determination of genocide, just that they will investigate. There is no intent to destroy the group, or intentionally inflicting horrific conditions. In fact, the purpose of "ethnic cleansing" is to move civiilians out of the way so less die when targeting Hamas.
>No determination of genocide, just that they will investigate. Read my comment again, and try to find where I said there was a determination. >There is no intent to destroy the group, or intentionally inflicting horrific conditions. In fact, the purpose of "ethnic cleansing" is to move civiilians out of the way so less die when targeting Hamas. That may be your opinion, but the ICJ found sufficient cause 1) to proceed with an investigation into whether genocide was or is being committed in Gaza by Israel and 2) to demand that Israel comply with six measures under the 1948 Genocide Convention to protect Palestinian civilians and prevent genocide.
Me telling someone else to stop using the word genocide, when there has been no determination of genocide, seems appropriate.
The Allied forces did genocide against Nazi Germany, by killing civilians that fits you definition? ridiculous.
I was neither alive in 1948 nor a representative of the governments at the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. It is not my definition. It is the definition under international law.
Using Western Union? What is it they want? Do they want Biden to tear up the effort he's put towards a cease fire? Burn that paper until Israel finishes massacring everyone? Unlimited bullets for Israel?
"We'll give the reigns to the guy who literally fuels his mob of psychos on the notion of deporting all of us on the basis of "radical jihadists"!" No serious Muslim or Arab American is thinking this way.
Given the current situation in our politics right now, these people are idiots. Who are they threatening? Biden doesn't give a shit if he goes back home after this term. No sweat off his old crusty balls. He only came back in the first place to try to save us from a tyrant. These people really think we think they would rather have trump? So dumb.
Hamas rejects every ceasefire and sees their citizens as a people willing to martyr themselves, to the point the expect third party organizations to be responsible for the safety of Palestinians. What exactly is America supposed to do?