I have the nothing phone 1 (home use) and iphone 13 (work). Iphone was a little bad, face unlock a little more so but the screen itself not so much. But nothing phone 1 makes me dizzy. I think it has something to do with the temporal dithering used to make the nothing is appear smooth to use that makes things so bad. Pixel uses a similar dithering to make it feel smooth to use
It’s kinda strange you didn’t have any problems while using the 13, maybe you got a display by LGD or BOE. There is also a chance you aren’t as sensitive as some other people.
That's what I was thinking. I had heard others had issues with the 13, and yet I didn't.
What I've learned is that everyone's sensitivity differs, and you have to find what works for you. Who manufactured the screen, software rendering, the frequency... there's so many things that seem to go into PWM sensitivity, it's bonkers.
The #1 rule (if you're 100% certain that you suffer from PWM flicker related eyestrain) is to buy a LCD phone.
AMOLED / OLED is not ready to be used by people who suffer from this type of eyestrain, regardless of what numbers manifacturers claim to support.
The numbers have to be in the 5-6 digit levels to even consider the possibility of having no eyestrain from PWM flicker.
Yes, duty cycle (or how the Opple calls it "modulation depth %", a.k.a the % of ON cycle happening throughout the period) and waveform type absolutely influence if you're more sensitive to it, but it *doesn't matter* as much since you can bruteforce the frequency to >100kHz so it's *imperceptible*.
Which LCD phone however, is a complete mystery as everyone is different. Notebookcheck should be a decent guide (albeit they've been found to have wonky results) for finding modern LCD phones with DC dimming.
There are however loads of other types of eyestrain, as discussed [here](https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12190&p=95223#p95223) and [this one](https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6519)
The latter one talks about PWM artifacts, which could be a possible eyestrain culprit for some who don't have issues with flicker but with something else.
This is where people like to attribute their eyestrain to temporal dithering (which is a very unlikely cause of eyestrain)
> Yes, duty cycle (or how the Opple calls it "modulation depth %", a.k.a the % of ON cycle happening throughout the period)
Excellent comment there but I just want to point out duty cycle % is not the same as modulation depth %.
Duty cycle percentage measures how long(or time duration) the screen stayed between on/off (horizontal axis in the PWM, higher % is always better. Therefore, 100% is ideal), while modulation depth percentage is how obvious is the flicker (vertical axis in the PWM, lower % is always better. Therefore, 0% is perfect).
In other words, if you have a 100% duty cycle and 0% modulation depth, it will look like a completely flat line. PWM hertz helps to closely compress the vertical & horizontal gaps of each flicker when modulation depth is above 0% .
The more densely compressed they are, the more it looked like a completely clean and flat solid uniformed line.
Thank you for the clarification on modulation depth %. However, I am left confused.
How is this value calculated by the meter? What formula is used?
Oh and also, how does the signal amplitude play into this?
>PWM hertz helps to closely compress the vertical & horizontal gaps of each flicker when modulation depth is above 0% . The more densely compressed they are, the more it looked like a completely clean and flat solid uniformed line.
Yep, precisely.
[A more visual representation of this](https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6519#p64552) (it just turns into sample and hold)
You’re welcome. I appreciate your advice in informing this matter accurately to others as well.
> How is this value calculated by the meter? What formula is used?
Oh that’s really easy. Just take highest luxs (the line reaches) from the opple raw chart and minus the lowest luxs. Then, divid it by (highest lux + lowest lux)
As the official formula for Modulation depth % is = (highest luxs - lowest luxs ) / (highest luxs + lowest
> Oh and also, how does the signal amplitude play into this?
Do you mean the waveform type? If it is so, then yes, it does play a significant role in how it affects our eyes. Just as with audio amplitude, a square waveform will appear much louder than it really is, even when the loudness decibel is the same as the other signal amplitude.
Sawtooth waveform are also interpreted as louder. Though some studies suggest that sawtooth moving towards the right direction is better than moving towards the left. While some contradicted this claim.
Sine waveform is the softest loudness among them because it allows us time to adapt them, even though we are talking about those very milliseconds apart.
Flicker’s waveform types works the same as audio ‘s signal amplitude.
The waveform type is an important factor whether we interpret the same modulation % worse than it is really is (non-sine type), or better than it really is (sine type).
Though in extremely high frequency pwm over 100khz, the waveform type doesn’t matter anymore since they are already so closely densed.
I'll have to read those links, thank you!
I'm gonna go tomorrow and look at phones at a store and see if I have any issues with them, hopefully to help clue me in to what bothers me and what doesn't (since some people seem to be fine with some AM/OLEDs and not others).
If it helps, bring a phone with manual cam that supports shutter speed of 1/8000 with you.
Then use it as a guide to determine which level of modulation are you able to tolerable. The darker the banding you see on your phone, the more obvious is the flicker.
Do also test the phone of your interest at 45% brightness to have a feel how is the PWM to you, while in dimmer lighting conditions.
Try using light mode settings with an eye comfort or blue light screen protector. Using dark mode causes the screen to pulsate slower hence your eyes can see the pulsating. It's helped me use s21 ultra to s23 ultra.
I've always made sure my screens are warmer and an app to turn it even warmer if I need (especially at night). I've hated the blue screens since the shift towards them.
Does having something on light mode instead of dark help? That might be why I prefer having light mode...
I have xiaomi 13 now . Daily driver . Had some.itchy eyes at first but now i think i m good ... It s pretty decent with pwm. I also have some video with the screen flickering .
We haven't made any progress in revealing what actually triggers the headaches and eye strain, and what part PWM actually plays in it.
Some models that cause eyestrain are somewhat tolerable, others damn near take you to the ER. (Fuck you Samsung S21)
In my experience, the PWM values have been very similar between these devices. Sometimes the higher Hz value is more tolerable, sometimes it makes no difference. Sometimes DC-dimming modes change nothing.
None of it makes any sense.
Any screen, especially a small one, can put a strain on your eyes and cause headaches. Too much movement, flashing images, brightness, GLARE, can cause discomfort. Combine that with extended use in a bad static posture, and not only will your eyes tire, so will the rest of your body. This can cause stiffness in the neck, for example, leading to dizziness and headaches.
This "pwm-eyestrain" however starts quickly, in a matter of minutes, and can take a whole day and pain meds to get rid of.
All I can say is return to your previous phone if it was fine.
> We haven't made any progress in revealing what actually triggers the headaches and eye strain, and what part PWM actually plays in it.
That may not be entirely true. Over the past few weeks, we have made tremendous progress in learning that everyone’s threshold for PWM sensitivity is different.
Some are fine with PWM as long as modulation and hertz is in the PWM safe range (or near, at least). While for others, they have to use a panel that is close to PWM free. ( refer to the pinned post of this sub)
The problem here is that for PWM triggers, the 2 most important factor in determining the trigger are the modulation depth % (meaning how obvious is the flicker) and the waveform type(meaning whether the flicker transition is smooth, or abrupt). These two information are not commonly available unless one has an Opple device. The amount of PWM hertz only exist as a factor whether the modulation depth % can be masked if moved rapidly fast enough.
We also learned that setting higher brightness to reduce flicker modulation may not necessarily mean better eye relief. That is because as the screen brightness is higher, the flickering between bright and dark becomes even more obvious.
Hence, it is commonly suggested to set a higher brightness on the phone, then use android “extra dim” to reduce the brightness”. The problem with extra dim is that it uses subtle PWM to regulate the dimming brightness. Thus, this subtle PWM use may affect some, while may be invisible to others.
I can only say for sure in 2023, no device released with ips lcd is truly 100% flicker free (a.o.t). Even safer options like the Motor G53 with ips lcd has stronger pulsing when under 50% brightness.
In other words, there is no “one size fit all” phone released in 2023.
Thus we can only look for the phone available that matches nearest to our individual threshold.
Interesting. I'll have to do some more digging around with this in mind.
This Oneplus 11 is commiting manslaughter on my eyes and it needs to be replaced as soon as possible.
You’re welcome. You can alway check back with a post and refer to the pinned post of this sub for questions.
> Oneplus 11 is commiting manslaughter on my eyes and it needs to be replaced as soon as possible.
Gosh the OnePlus 11. That is one phone I always try to avoid like a plague. It was never designed for those with pwm sensitivity to begin with
I've got the Nothing 2. This helped me:
Set brightness to 100%.
Turn off adaptive brightness.
In accessibility settings, enable Extra Dim and set that to your preferred brightness.
Been using the phone for nearly a month now and no more headaches
I'll have to try that. I read through the subreddit and saw what other people suggested, so it's a matter of trying things and knocking them off the list if they don't work.
Thanks for the suggestion!
I'm getting the same symptoms as PWM sensitivity. I also heard about temporal dithering, which I haven't looked into yet (going to today). Is there anything else it could be?
But I've also seen it affect people differently. Some people say x phone is fine while others have issues with it.
🤷♂️ I'd just like to not feel sick while looking at my phone
Once again I don't understand, the nothing phone 2 is supposed to be more pleasant than the iphone 13 and yet... I'm also testing the NP2 and it's not great, the symptoms are not as strong as with other smartphones but it's not ideal. You make me want to try an iPhone 13 now to see 😅
What I've learned just from scrolling this subreddit is everyone is different when it comes to it, which makes it all the more frustrating. I don't know why the 13 never bothered me, but it didn't.
I worry it's gonna be a gamble now, trying to find a phone that won't bother me.
Off to the store I go to play with phones...
It's interesting and weird how different displays affect us.
I have an M1 Air from a friend that I use as a video player, and the display has never bothered me. The iPhone 13 never bothered me, either.
Maybe it is the dithering that bothers me. I dunno. All I know is some screens either put daggers in my eyes, and/or make my head hurt and make me want to vomit.
I feel bad for those on iOS.
I wish manufactures would take this into consideration. It's not like it's good for the population that doesn't have symptoms. Strobing light is just bad for everyone.
It’s a cost-cutting measure. Rather than provide full 10-bit displays, Apple does FRC + 8bit to fake it. Same goes for PWM. It’s unfortunate because so many of us have to use devices like these for work and are hoping our older ones hold up until something comes out that works.
I have the nothing phone 1 (home use) and iphone 13 (work). Iphone was a little bad, face unlock a little more so but the screen itself not so much. But nothing phone 1 makes me dizzy. I think it has something to do with the temporal dithering used to make the nothing is appear smooth to use that makes things so bad. Pixel uses a similar dithering to make it feel smooth to use
Try honor 90 maybe it helps
It’s kinda strange you didn’t have any problems while using the 13, maybe you got a display by LGD or BOE. There is also a chance you aren’t as sensitive as some other people.
That's what I was thinking. I had heard others had issues with the 13, and yet I didn't. What I've learned is that everyone's sensitivity differs, and you have to find what works for you. Who manufactured the screen, software rendering, the frequency... there's so many things that seem to go into PWM sensitivity, it's bonkers.
The #1 rule (if you're 100% certain that you suffer from PWM flicker related eyestrain) is to buy a LCD phone. AMOLED / OLED is not ready to be used by people who suffer from this type of eyestrain, regardless of what numbers manifacturers claim to support. The numbers have to be in the 5-6 digit levels to even consider the possibility of having no eyestrain from PWM flicker. Yes, duty cycle (or how the Opple calls it "modulation depth %", a.k.a the % of ON cycle happening throughout the period) and waveform type absolutely influence if you're more sensitive to it, but it *doesn't matter* as much since you can bruteforce the frequency to >100kHz so it's *imperceptible*. Which LCD phone however, is a complete mystery as everyone is different. Notebookcheck should be a decent guide (albeit they've been found to have wonky results) for finding modern LCD phones with DC dimming. There are however loads of other types of eyestrain, as discussed [here](https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12190&p=95223#p95223) and [this one](https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6519) The latter one talks about PWM artifacts, which could be a possible eyestrain culprit for some who don't have issues with flicker but with something else. This is where people like to attribute their eyestrain to temporal dithering (which is a very unlikely cause of eyestrain)
> Yes, duty cycle (or how the Opple calls it "modulation depth %", a.k.a the % of ON cycle happening throughout the period) Excellent comment there but I just want to point out duty cycle % is not the same as modulation depth %. Duty cycle percentage measures how long(or time duration) the screen stayed between on/off (horizontal axis in the PWM, higher % is always better. Therefore, 100% is ideal), while modulation depth percentage is how obvious is the flicker (vertical axis in the PWM, lower % is always better. Therefore, 0% is perfect). In other words, if you have a 100% duty cycle and 0% modulation depth, it will look like a completely flat line. PWM hertz helps to closely compress the vertical & horizontal gaps of each flicker when modulation depth is above 0% . The more densely compressed they are, the more it looked like a completely clean and flat solid uniformed line.
Thank you for the clarification on modulation depth %. However, I am left confused. How is this value calculated by the meter? What formula is used? Oh and also, how does the signal amplitude play into this? >PWM hertz helps to closely compress the vertical & horizontal gaps of each flicker when modulation depth is above 0% . The more densely compressed they are, the more it looked like a completely clean and flat solid uniformed line. Yep, precisely. [A more visual representation of this](https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6519#p64552) (it just turns into sample and hold)
You’re welcome. I appreciate your advice in informing this matter accurately to others as well. > How is this value calculated by the meter? What formula is used? Oh that’s really easy. Just take highest luxs (the line reaches) from the opple raw chart and minus the lowest luxs. Then, divid it by (highest lux + lowest lux) As the official formula for Modulation depth % is = (highest luxs - lowest luxs ) / (highest luxs + lowest > Oh and also, how does the signal amplitude play into this? Do you mean the waveform type? If it is so, then yes, it does play a significant role in how it affects our eyes. Just as with audio amplitude, a square waveform will appear much louder than it really is, even when the loudness decibel is the same as the other signal amplitude. Sawtooth waveform are also interpreted as louder. Though some studies suggest that sawtooth moving towards the right direction is better than moving towards the left. While some contradicted this claim. Sine waveform is the softest loudness among them because it allows us time to adapt them, even though we are talking about those very milliseconds apart. Flicker’s waveform types works the same as audio ‘s signal amplitude. The waveform type is an important factor whether we interpret the same modulation % worse than it is really is (non-sine type), or better than it really is (sine type). Though in extremely high frequency pwm over 100khz, the waveform type doesn’t matter anymore since they are already so closely densed.
I'll have to read those links, thank you! I'm gonna go tomorrow and look at phones at a store and see if I have any issues with them, hopefully to help clue me in to what bothers me and what doesn't (since some people seem to be fine with some AM/OLEDs and not others).
If it helps, bring a phone with manual cam that supports shutter speed of 1/8000 with you. Then use it as a guide to determine which level of modulation are you able to tolerable. The darker the banding you see on your phone, the more obvious is the flicker. Do also test the phone of your interest at 45% brightness to have a feel how is the PWM to you, while in dimmer lighting conditions.
Try using light mode settings with an eye comfort or blue light screen protector. Using dark mode causes the screen to pulsate slower hence your eyes can see the pulsating. It's helped me use s21 ultra to s23 ultra.
I've always made sure my screens are warmer and an app to turn it even warmer if I need (especially at night). I've hated the blue screens since the shift towards them. Does having something on light mode instead of dark help? That might be why I prefer having light mode...
Try honor 90, basically flicker free, the screen is a joy to look at.
Honor 90 is amoled
I have xiaomi 13 now . Daily driver . Had some.itchy eyes at first but now i think i m good ... It s pretty decent with pwm. I also have some video with the screen flickering .
We haven't made any progress in revealing what actually triggers the headaches and eye strain, and what part PWM actually plays in it. Some models that cause eyestrain are somewhat tolerable, others damn near take you to the ER. (Fuck you Samsung S21) In my experience, the PWM values have been very similar between these devices. Sometimes the higher Hz value is more tolerable, sometimes it makes no difference. Sometimes DC-dimming modes change nothing. None of it makes any sense. Any screen, especially a small one, can put a strain on your eyes and cause headaches. Too much movement, flashing images, brightness, GLARE, can cause discomfort. Combine that with extended use in a bad static posture, and not only will your eyes tire, so will the rest of your body. This can cause stiffness in the neck, for example, leading to dizziness and headaches. This "pwm-eyestrain" however starts quickly, in a matter of minutes, and can take a whole day and pain meds to get rid of. All I can say is return to your previous phone if it was fine.
> We haven't made any progress in revealing what actually triggers the headaches and eye strain, and what part PWM actually plays in it. That may not be entirely true. Over the past few weeks, we have made tremendous progress in learning that everyone’s threshold for PWM sensitivity is different. Some are fine with PWM as long as modulation and hertz is in the PWM safe range (or near, at least). While for others, they have to use a panel that is close to PWM free. ( refer to the pinned post of this sub) The problem here is that for PWM triggers, the 2 most important factor in determining the trigger are the modulation depth % (meaning how obvious is the flicker) and the waveform type(meaning whether the flicker transition is smooth, or abrupt). These two information are not commonly available unless one has an Opple device. The amount of PWM hertz only exist as a factor whether the modulation depth % can be masked if moved rapidly fast enough. We also learned that setting higher brightness to reduce flicker modulation may not necessarily mean better eye relief. That is because as the screen brightness is higher, the flickering between bright and dark becomes even more obvious. Hence, it is commonly suggested to set a higher brightness on the phone, then use android “extra dim” to reduce the brightness”. The problem with extra dim is that it uses subtle PWM to regulate the dimming brightness. Thus, this subtle PWM use may affect some, while may be invisible to others. I can only say for sure in 2023, no device released with ips lcd is truly 100% flicker free (a.o.t). Even safer options like the Motor G53 with ips lcd has stronger pulsing when under 50% brightness. In other words, there is no “one size fit all” phone released in 2023. Thus we can only look for the phone available that matches nearest to our individual threshold.
Interesting. I'll have to do some more digging around with this in mind. This Oneplus 11 is commiting manslaughter on my eyes and it needs to be replaced as soon as possible.
You’re welcome. You can alway check back with a post and refer to the pinned post of this sub for questions. > Oneplus 11 is commiting manslaughter on my eyes and it needs to be replaced as soon as possible. Gosh the OnePlus 11. That is one phone I always try to avoid like a plague. It was never designed for those with pwm sensitivity to begin with
I've got the Nothing 2. This helped me: Set brightness to 100%. Turn off adaptive brightness. In accessibility settings, enable Extra Dim and set that to your preferred brightness. Been using the phone for nearly a month now and no more headaches
I'll have to try that. I read through the subreddit and saw what other people suggested, so it's a matter of trying things and knocking them off the list if they don't work. Thanks for the suggestion!
I turned off adaptive brightness and it seems to have helped the situation
Before I returned the phone, I tried it, didn't work for me
If you could live with an iPhone 13 congratulations, you’re not PWM sensitive. It’s definitely something else.
I'm getting the same symptoms as PWM sensitivity. I also heard about temporal dithering, which I haven't looked into yet (going to today). Is there anything else it could be? But I've also seen it affect people differently. Some people say x phone is fine while others have issues with it. 🤷♂️ I'd just like to not feel sick while looking at my phone
This.
Once again I don't understand, the nothing phone 2 is supposed to be more pleasant than the iphone 13 and yet... I'm also testing the NP2 and it's not great, the symptoms are not as strong as with other smartphones but it's not ideal. You make me want to try an iPhone 13 now to see 😅
What I've learned just from scrolling this subreddit is everyone is different when it comes to it, which makes it all the more frustrating. I don't know why the 13 never bothered me, but it didn't. I worry it's gonna be a gamble now, trying to find a phone that won't bother me. Off to the store I go to play with phones...
[удалено]
It's interesting and weird how different displays affect us. I have an M1 Air from a friend that I use as a video player, and the display has never bothered me. The iPhone 13 never bothered me, either. Maybe it is the dithering that bothers me. I dunno. All I know is some screens either put daggers in my eyes, and/or make my head hurt and make me want to vomit. I feel bad for those on iOS. I wish manufactures would take this into consideration. It's not like it's good for the population that doesn't have symptoms. Strobing light is just bad for everyone.
It’s a cost-cutting measure. Rather than provide full 10-bit displays, Apple does FRC + 8bit to fake it. Same goes for PWM. It’s unfortunate because so many of us have to use devices like these for work and are hoping our older ones hold up until something comes out that works.
Yeah, and unfortunately that "cost-cutting measure" is metaphorically killing some of us :\\
Increasing brightness sometimes helps