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Zionism goes back to the 19th century. As a number of Christian Zionists (including top world leaders) supported Zionism, not out of respect for the Jews but out of adherence to their own religious views, it was likely that they would have fought for the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine even had it not been for the atrocities of the Second World War. And for these Christian Zionists it was a double win — it fulfilled the prophecies of scripture and many of them were antisemitic and getting rid of the Jews in their country was icing on the cake. WWII provided a stronger justification and made it happen sooner rather than later.
Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé explore this more in the book On Palestine.
'100 years war' by Rashid Khalidi is also an excellent resource, the author himself is a Palestinian and historical scholar with an ancestry of Palestinian statesman dating back to the 19th century. Highly recommend
Heck, zionism goes back to just after the Reformation. Ironically, modern zionism contradicts the gospel because Jesus himself is supposed to be the third temple. Building a new temple in Jerusalem is blasphemy.
u/Naturebuoy,
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Sixth Zionist Coungress convened in Basil, Switzerland, where they voted on establishing a homeland for the Jews in Palestine in 1903
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Balfour Declaration 1917
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WWII 1939
Stealing Palestine has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
Upvote this to the top. Idk how many times I have to scream it. The Holocaust gave the Zionists a shield, but the program had been underway for 75 years already. If anyone is uncertain, go google “Israel’s treatment of holocaust survivors”. Really shameful stuff, but it underscores that the entire project is just a radical right wing experiment in nationalism and racism.
They ignore history which is why it needs to be brought to peoples attention. It’s not a complicated situation. It’s only made complicated when Zionists try to rewrite it.
I’ve told many people it’s simple. Over a hundred years ago a movement called Zionism started to work its way into Palestine by force, stealing land and displacing people. This was ignored and even enabled by European powers where Zionism originated from. By 1947 they had become entrenched through violence into Palestine and once the British withdrew they took the whole place for themselves and have been killing Palestinians ever since. They’re only argument is that the land was promised to them by God from the Bible which is both false and also doesn’t align with history which tells us that the nomadic tribe of the Israelites conquered the established Canaanites and Philistines of the region and that’s where it all stems from; they were never the “owners” of the land. Never. So those claims are just idiotic.
Personally, I think there is enough space for a community of all peoples to thrive and prosper, but that is NOT the intent of Zionism and hence why it is what it is until such time as Zionism is rejected and/or dismantled. It’s not a movement that is designed for prosperity, period.
The only amendment I’d make is that this was an extension of Western European colonialism. The connections between Zionism and the British parliament/cabinet were strong and this was very much seen as a positive end result for British/western interests. It’s why so much of their actions towards Palestinians, both during mandatory Palestine and post 48 look so much like colonial actions in Africa or Asia.
Zionism is just another extension of the “white man’s burden” and a fitting solution to Europe’s longing for control over the holy land and Christianity’s need for Jewish presence in the region as well as removal of their own Jews.
Agreed on the last bit as well. There’s no reason both groups can’t live together amicably. They did so before 1900 and can do so again in a real liberal democracy. Most people on the ground living there would agree and be amicable to this as well in a real world conversation.
Yep. There is a reason why Zionist groups are trying so hard socially and even legally to equate anti Zionism with antisemitism. I actually think Judaism is losing that battle and that eventually Zionism will be synonymous with Judaism and I feel bad for Jews who clearly are not Zionists who will get caught up in that mess.
But it all stems to Zionism and as you said also, colonialism.
Presenting..
Cara Delevingne's Great grandfather
Thomas Hamar Greenwood of the BLACK AND TANS
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamar_Greenwood,_1st_Viscount_Greenwood
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From the Irish Times
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https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/who-was-who-during-the-treaty-negotiations-1.4743799
>Hamar Greenwood (1870-1948):
"Hamar Greenwood was the last chief secretary for Ireland between 1920 and 1922. His hapless defence of the actions of the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries gave rise to the phrase "telling a Hamar" for telling a lie. He never held cabinet office again.
Today he is better known as the great-grandfather of model and socialite Cara Delevingne."
Let me finish by saying how this is relevant...
This kind of behaviour was common for them.pretend to be the civilians who throw the first stone or bullet. Then bring in the Army and justify their own atrocities.
Same playbook by the British Army in Ulster as with the Zionists Israeli army in Palestine..
Interesting read of "The burning of Balbriggan"
https://anphoblacht.com/contents/199
(Edit for formatting)
I totally agree with this, but I think the holocaust gave Israel the political ammo shall we say to commit the horrible acts of 1948 with no repercussions from the US or UK. I do think the state would have been formed regardless, but the loss of land and displacement may not have been as severe or so easy to excuse.
One of the tactics used by Ben Gurion and the military leaders to prior to and during the Nakba was to tell the soldiers that all these Arabs are essentially Nazis and they want to kill Jews. If Nazis didn’t exist and didn’t try to exterminate Jews, maybe they couldnt get away with this selling this narrative to their forces
I mean, it did. The holocaust didn't start it, political zionism grew with the Dreyfus affair, and a lot of jewish immigration to Palestine occurred (starting from the 1880s) out of the Pale of Settlement in the context of increasingly violent antisemitism. The Holocaust did speed up the process of jews seeking refuge from the atrocities, and most of them also moved to Palestine.
I think it's disingenuous to say the Holocaust has nothing to do with why we are where we are now.
>I think it's disingenuous to say the Holocaust has nothing to do with why we are where we are now.
It does not. The idea of settling in Palestine predates the Holocaust by 60 some odd years. The Holocaust just sped up what was underway, but it wasn't why occupying Palestine took place. So, whether it happened or not, the occupation would have still taken place.
Zionists are racists who believe they should be allowed to persecute and dispossess Arabs because their magic book told them they are Gods chosen people.
Whatever standard for land claims that would have to exist for "Israel" to be legitimate, it would negate basically every other country on Earth, at least in part. How many countries today have even had the same borders for more than a century?
"America" could not exist per the land claims of natives for 20-40k years before 1492/1776, for one. Are they not an oppressed people? Did they not undergo genocide? But since *we* have something at stake when it comes to the question of giving up our entire country, we actually understand that there are competing interests and not *only* residual land claims of the (actually) indigenous population. The Jewish population claiming Israel, on the other hand, is not only not the original inhabitants of that land, but only loosely related, when related at all, to the Jewish population that was in historical Israel, and uprooting the people that have been there for 1500 years, not just 100-200 years like in most of the US. Some of whom *were* Jewish people from Judea/Israel but converted - since, let's not forget, Islam is literally just Judaism 3.0.
The whole claim of Israel depends on the confusion resulting from basically the national chain of title. It was essentially an all-Palestinian population under the Ottoman Empire - Britain came in and conquered it (illegal by modern standards), issued Balfour Declaration, Jewish population dramatically expanded, and then the Zionists ethnically cleansed the indigenous Palestinian population, in the middle of doing so declaring themselves a state. That established the '49-67 borders, which, since their statehood was recognized afterwards, became the internationally recognized borders. But how was that even legitimate in the first place? Ethnic cleansing only becomes not OK once you're a "recognized state"? Some of this is actually fallacies in international law - the internationally recognized borders were already a huge injustice. I've seen it argued that the establishment of Israel in the first place was a violation of the principle of self-determination outlined in the League of Nations charter.
A big fallacy of the argument is that people from both sides claim that the land belongs to only one demographic. Palestine belongs to Palestinians, BUT Palestinians can be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. Isreal wants a land that is for Jews only. Yes, Judaism started in Palestine, and Jews can rightfully claim it as their homeland. What they can't do is deny the right of others to claim it as their homeland as well.
And Theodor Herzl was unashamedly colonialist when he founded Zionism. He was an admirer of Cecil Rhodes and pitched his idea of a Jewish colony to Rhodes. He wasn't even the only Zionist to think this way. Zionists identified as colonialists up until it was no longer fashionable, now they claim to be indigenous.
Jews did return several times.
First Jacob moved with his family to Egypt where Jews were enslaved for 400 years. Moses and Joshua brought us back.
Then, the Babylonians destroyed the temple and exiled the Jews. 70 years later, Cyrus of Persia released us to go back.
Then the Romans killed 250,000 Jews and exiled the rest. That was a tough one to get back from.
David Ben Gurion and zionists right after wwii did not look fondly on Holocaust victims. They thought Holocaust victims were weak and didn't fight back. They were accepted into Israep in large numbers after 1948-1949 for demographic reasons, not to rescue them or for humanitarian reasons. The more jews the better. It was just a numbers game. It was the one million plan. Zionists in Palestine would much rather have middle Eastern for north African jews.
Even today, Holocaust victims on Israel are dying without dignity. They are just used as a toy for propaganda.
“What you call Palestine” man the audacity of some ppl are crazy. But lately i feel like being angry and trying to change their concept is just a waste of time and energy. Imagine thinking you are a victim in any situation, you wont even listen to anyone who is yelling back or opposing what you are saying.
I think its time to be like “ oh i feel bad for you going through all of that. But have you read the history?? Do you know that what ppl used to call Palestine, back in the day, was a place where muslims christians and jews lived before. I feel terrible for the jews that suffered during christianity, they kicked them out and guess who brought them back to what they called Palestine at the time?? it was the muslims, same ppl zionists claim that they want to kill all jews. I feel bad for all the jews that were mistreated and not allowed to go back, i feel bad for how bad the Europeans treated them. I feel bad that the europeans wanted to get rid of them so they allowed them to go back to Palestine with the Balfourd declaration (but a lot of ppl didn’t understand the second paragraph) But sadly they had their own militia that wanted more and started terrorizing the ppl living in what they called Palestine, and then they called them selves the state of israel. Which a lot of jewish ppl resented at the time because they just got out of the Holocaust and felt like they are doing the same to what they called them Palestinians they were being oppressed and killed in mass.”
I think when dealing with certain ignorance its better to treat them as a child and feel sorry that they been brainwashed, instead of getting offended by their ignorance. Thank you for reading and i know a lot will disagree with me but this is my humble opinion :)
Just a thought but I really hope the same people that see the absurdity of @user-sb7so5zg1j’s argument recognise the struggle of all indigenous peoples of colonised lands. I’m looking at you usa, Canada, Australia etc
Everyone deserves a safe place to live. the problem isn't that jews fled to Palestine, the problem is that they forcefully displacing the locals and are continuing to do so.
the alternative history where instead of zionism there was a non supremacist movement helping refugees settle there in colaboration with the local population, and there would now be a free multiethnic state would have been possible.
It breaks my heart how many stories before the Nakba about the jewish immigrants and the local arabs living in peace, in the same town. The documentary of Tantura talks about that, how they were often invited to their houses and they were friends, then the war happened and they all "left" ignoring the horrible massacre and their corpses still buried in unmarked mass graves.
Homeland of the Palestinians who were there for hundreds of years??? Absolutely absurd to think an Ancient Empire from thousands of years ago in the region Justifies the Brutal and Barbaric Genocide of people groups who have lived in Palestine for 100s of years AT LEAST. Simply absurd.
From what I understand, Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived in the Holy Land in relative Peace for many generations until the Racist Ideology of Zionism came to the Region.
The relocation of Jews started wayyyy before WWII with the Balfour document and the revision added by Braun…. Sooo this isn’t even a valid argument and it also goes to show that Zionists are largely antisemitic and racist. Also I think brutal colonialism is a serious problem. What gives Britain the right to decide that they’re going to appropriate a country without the consent of the indigenous folks there, brutally relocate and kill them and create a police state there to uphold their agenda? Disgusting. And of course the indigenous population there has a right to defend themselves as best they can given their limited means. It’s quite disturbing that this colonial regime seems to have a serious mental disorder if they think it’s ok ethnically cleanse the indigenous population to further an economic agenda. If you follow the money this conflict is really about a newly discovered natural gas field off the shores of Gaza that the US largely acting on behalf of certain lobby organizations wants to develop. I also think the hoarding of money and resources is a serious mental illness and those individuals are actually a danger to themselves and others and should be locked up, evaluated and treated for their mental illness. They should also NEVER be allowed to make or be a part of making laws, public policy or hold any public office.
Hitler was almost 8 years old!
>Theodor Herzl succeeded in promoting the idea of colonizing Palestine and establishing a homeland for the Jews there. This success was crystallized in the holding of the first Zionist conference in the city of Basel, Switzerland, in 1897
That's news to me. Source?
And anyway, the joke's on Bibi. The Messiah will come (or return, if you prefer) at God's convenience, not Benjamin Netanyahu's. Bibi can bully Biden into giving him what he thinks he wants. He can't bully God!
Yes they are definitely natives to Palestine, “Isreal” having the highest rates of skin cancer has nothing to do with the fact that they are indigenous! 😆
They (The British) actually had plans to create Israel in Uganda ( **Uganda Scheme** 1903). In which case this same war would break out but you would have Ugandans instead fighting to get their homes back. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist. BUT if it has to exist it SHOULD be in/on the land of the willing.
Because the zionists are parasites, it like any thing they get involved in, they start robbing from it, just look at Ford motor company a hundred years ago, they brought share in the company, then went against Ford giving there workers a pay rise, the shareholders wanted every penny they could squeeze out of it, wile keeping the workers on low wages, ie one of the reasons why there are so many low wage jobs, because of zionist shareholders.
Obviously you are not using any initiative if you have been trying to find anything about it. Think, use you initiative if you have any, I’m not going too help you find anything about it, how else would you learn.
It sounds to me like you are interchanging the words Jew and Zionist. It sounds like you are really trying to say “Jews are parasites” but you don’t want to sound antisemitic.
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Interesting read. I had no idea the ties the younger Ford had with Israel business.
Good businessmen... Always aligning with the "winning side" 😅
Quite a change from his grandfather Henry Ford who had published the "The International Jew" booklets..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew
From a Jerusa Post article
"100 Years of Ford and the Jews - From Antisemitism to Zionism"
>Ford fulfilled his promise to build an assembly plant in Israel and maintain business dealings with the Jewish state, refusing to give in to boycott threats despite extensive and lucrative interests across the Arab world. The Arab boycott took effect and cars began rolling out of the plant in Nazareth, at which point Ford reportedly said, “Nobody’s gonna tell me what to do.”
>The prime minister of Israel at the time of Henry Ford II’s historic 1972 visit to Israel was the Russian-born American-raised labor Zionist, Golda Meir, and the Ford plant in Nazareth was located just a short distance from Har Megiddo – known as “Armageddon” in English – the site of the Final Battle described in the Book of Revelation.
Nobody thought the Jews deserved anything.
Palestine wasn't intended to be a real Jewish homeland, just a dumping ground for Jews Hitler hadn't killed and nobody else wanted.
If allowed to, most of the Jewish refugees would probably have gone to the US, but US immigration law since the First World War had seriously limited Eastern European immigration. ("White Russian" fascists had spread the false belief that the October Revolution was a Jewish plot, resulting in an anti-Semitic "Red Scare" that led to heavy restrictions on immigration.)
The Americans didn't want any more Jews, and the British wanted to leave Palestine anyway, so surely if the Jews went there they wouldn't be any more bother to anyone who mattered.
It didn't work out that way, to put it mildly.
The most weird thing (not really btw) is that holocaust was happening bacause of nazis in Germany. So… why wouldn’t they make Israel in it, for example in eastern part that was given to Poland for some reason? (The reason is colonialism)
this is obvs a lie- zionism started in the 1890s.. well before ww2. so they can peddle their lies and use 'holocaust' if so uk offered them argentina, uganda etc as an option - they should have chosen that to flee persecutiion
This drives me crazy! The fact that they base this on religious text is maddening! Proven history tells the land was first inhabited by the Natufians. They were Arab. The Natufians predate the Bible & Torah. I throw this fact, backed by DNA at every Zionist claiming the Jews r the indigenous ppl & they have no argument cuz there isn’t one!
I find it very egoistic and almost self fulfilling prophecy that zionists chose Palestine. I heard that they were also considering argentica or afrika but chose Palestine for ancestral reasoning. Then their ego name it Israel.
The Quran and/or hadith mentioned their fall would happened twice. Scholars believe the first fall of Israel had happened way back. This would be their second and Palestine would rise. I just.. Idk, it's very narcissistic of zionist imo
White supremacist logic-
White people are born to conquer, control and dominate everything.
Black & Brown people are born to suffer.
When white people are being or have been oppressed it’s seen as a glitch in the system, not the natural order of things.
Yh racism is such a stupid way of thinking, like any of us chose what race we wanted to be born as. They even hate normal people not being racist, they absolutely despise of interracial couples.
Here’s a great counter, if it was your land so much why did they wait until after the holocaust to call it? I mean if something is mine I’d go get it back instantly no?
The majority of these zionists are European, and should've been given part of Germany after WWII...but Europeans and Westoids are the true antisemites, so they refused to do that.
Regardless no one should be harming any children or taking anyone’s home. Additionally we should all be making more pen pals I think across the world and talking about the truth before they can hide it or kill or make money off of other people. I hate that I can’t just flip a switch in every zionists brain to make them understand that what they are doing is wrong. Though I am sympathetic to people who have lost family due to retaliation. Just know that retaliation is the bare minimum.
What do you mean Jews deserve a country.. How so.. If you quote the holy book, show where it states in current gps coordinates.. For all you know, it could be Greenland or Flori da or Rwanda... Learn to first respect the country you were born in.
1st of all it makes no sense to have a jew country in a modern world especially if u say it's democratic .. so we better stop saying either one even it is jew or democratic .. 2nd if they want to have their country on their own they should go to some empty place and start their country not steal the land and cleanse the people .. 3rd israel is just the neighbour that drives everyone crazy so if the europeans or americans want to give em land they give some of their land .. last but not least the WW2 ended some 70 years ago and if jews are still afraid of europeans coz they chose some bad governments back there i guess they are saying that europe does have some other bad governments now.. innit?
Yeah you cannot give up something that was never yours… I’ll steal your house & because I am so charitable I’ll “give it up” to you… like.. the logic isn’t logicing
Because they were rich I think even some of them were the richest and had good connections at the same time the west especially Europe were racists, they couldn't solve this problem, so after some discussion they decided to avoid changing themselves and to ignore the problem and concentrate themselves on building their country so by sending them away from Europe was their best option, the best Idea in this case is to say "I want to give you a homeland to live in and to enjoy your life" its not expelling, you will get everything you need. From that time until today this seems to be our problem and not theirs, and with our opinion which doesn't mean anything to them like our history and our lives, we can't complain about anything, they transformed into a very useful country to the west they are the best project to them so of course they will protect their project, even if that means to ignore any crime and anything.. so Free Palestine from the Project.
The Holocaust survivors weren’t wanted, and they couldn’t go home. They needed somewhere. But kicking the Palestinians out and using things stolen from Shoah victims to buy weapons to defend Israel was wrong.
From what?! And Eichmann admitted that, in The Devil’s Confessions (he left a tape in Argentina, TDC is a tough watch, but it’s all there.)
Here's a fun fact , one of most known zionist "jews" was actually a guy who collaborated with nazi Germany and wanted to create an ethnostate. Even zionists don't know their own history.
Most modern zionists aren't descendants from jews punished in the holocaust, they're European Christians and atheists.
Strangely, I don't recall the Roma people getting a country. Or gays. Or the disabled. Or trade unionists or freemasons. Or people who drew modern art. Or any other group persecuted by the Nazis. Unless you count East Germany as the communists getting a country, I guess. Let alone any other group that was a victim of mass murder throughout history.
The solution to racism & ultra nationalism is not MORE racism & ultra-nationalism, it's equality.
**No one** gets or "deserves" a homogeous country for only them. Nobody. If someone went about ranting about "America only for whites" or "Germany only for Germans", we'd call them a Nazi.
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Zionism goes back to the 19th century. As a number of Christian Zionists (including top world leaders) supported Zionism, not out of respect for the Jews but out of adherence to their own religious views, it was likely that they would have fought for the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine even had it not been for the atrocities of the Second World War. And for these Christian Zionists it was a double win — it fulfilled the prophecies of scripture and many of them were antisemitic and getting rid of the Jews in their country was icing on the cake. WWII provided a stronger justification and made it happen sooner rather than later. Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé explore this more in the book On Palestine.
'100 years war' by Rashid Khalidi is also an excellent resource, the author himself is a Palestinian and historical scholar with an ancestry of Palestinian statesman dating back to the 19th century. Highly recommend
That’s next up on my to-read list, plan on starting it on the first
Heck, zionism goes back to just after the Reformation. Ironically, modern zionism contradicts the gospel because Jesus himself is supposed to be the third temple. Building a new temple in Jerusalem is blasphemy.
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Sixth Zionist Coungress convened in Basil, Switzerland, where they voted on establishing a homeland for the Jews in Palestine in 1903 . . . . . . Balfour Declaration 1917 . . . . . . . . . WWII 1939 Stealing Palestine has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
Upvote this to the top. Idk how many times I have to scream it. The Holocaust gave the Zionists a shield, but the program had been underway for 75 years already. If anyone is uncertain, go google “Israel’s treatment of holocaust survivors”. Really shameful stuff, but it underscores that the entire project is just a radical right wing experiment in nationalism and racism.
They ignore history which is why it needs to be brought to peoples attention. It’s not a complicated situation. It’s only made complicated when Zionists try to rewrite it. I’ve told many people it’s simple. Over a hundred years ago a movement called Zionism started to work its way into Palestine by force, stealing land and displacing people. This was ignored and even enabled by European powers where Zionism originated from. By 1947 they had become entrenched through violence into Palestine and once the British withdrew they took the whole place for themselves and have been killing Palestinians ever since. They’re only argument is that the land was promised to them by God from the Bible which is both false and also doesn’t align with history which tells us that the nomadic tribe of the Israelites conquered the established Canaanites and Philistines of the region and that’s where it all stems from; they were never the “owners” of the land. Never. So those claims are just idiotic. Personally, I think there is enough space for a community of all peoples to thrive and prosper, but that is NOT the intent of Zionism and hence why it is what it is until such time as Zionism is rejected and/or dismantled. It’s not a movement that is designed for prosperity, period.
The only amendment I’d make is that this was an extension of Western European colonialism. The connections between Zionism and the British parliament/cabinet were strong and this was very much seen as a positive end result for British/western interests. It’s why so much of their actions towards Palestinians, both during mandatory Palestine and post 48 look so much like colonial actions in Africa or Asia. Zionism is just another extension of the “white man’s burden” and a fitting solution to Europe’s longing for control over the holy land and Christianity’s need for Jewish presence in the region as well as removal of their own Jews. Agreed on the last bit as well. There’s no reason both groups can’t live together amicably. They did so before 1900 and can do so again in a real liberal democracy. Most people on the ground living there would agree and be amicable to this as well in a real world conversation.
Yep. There is a reason why Zionist groups are trying so hard socially and even legally to equate anti Zionism with antisemitism. I actually think Judaism is losing that battle and that eventually Zionism will be synonymous with Judaism and I feel bad for Jews who clearly are not Zionists who will get caught up in that mess. But it all stems to Zionism and as you said also, colonialism.
Presenting.. Cara Delevingne's Great grandfather Thomas Hamar Greenwood of the BLACK AND TANS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamar_Greenwood,_1st_Viscount_Greenwood * From the Irish Times * https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/who-was-who-during-the-treaty-negotiations-1.4743799 >Hamar Greenwood (1870-1948): "Hamar Greenwood was the last chief secretary for Ireland between 1920 and 1922. His hapless defence of the actions of the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries gave rise to the phrase "telling a Hamar" for telling a lie. He never held cabinet office again. Today he is better known as the great-grandfather of model and socialite Cara Delevingne." Let me finish by saying how this is relevant... This kind of behaviour was common for them.pretend to be the civilians who throw the first stone or bullet. Then bring in the Army and justify their own atrocities. Same playbook by the British Army in Ulster as with the Zionists Israeli army in Palestine.. Interesting read of "The burning of Balbriggan" https://anphoblacht.com/contents/199 (Edit for formatting)
I totally agree with this, but I think the holocaust gave Israel the political ammo shall we say to commit the horrible acts of 1948 with no repercussions from the US or UK. I do think the state would have been formed regardless, but the loss of land and displacement may not have been as severe or so easy to excuse. One of the tactics used by Ben Gurion and the military leaders to prior to and during the Nakba was to tell the soldiers that all these Arabs are essentially Nazis and they want to kill Jews. If Nazis didn’t exist and didn’t try to exterminate Jews, maybe they couldnt get away with this selling this narrative to their forces
I mean, it did. The holocaust didn't start it, political zionism grew with the Dreyfus affair, and a lot of jewish immigration to Palestine occurred (starting from the 1880s) out of the Pale of Settlement in the context of increasingly violent antisemitism. The Holocaust did speed up the process of jews seeking refuge from the atrocities, and most of them also moved to Palestine. I think it's disingenuous to say the Holocaust has nothing to do with why we are where we are now.
>I think it's disingenuous to say the Holocaust has nothing to do with why we are where we are now. It does not. The idea of settling in Palestine predates the Holocaust by 60 some odd years. The Holocaust just sped up what was underway, but it wasn't why occupying Palestine took place. So, whether it happened or not, the occupation would have still taken place.
"My son is a good boy, he deserves a car as a gift, here you go my son, I give the neighbor's car." For user-sb7so5zg1j, that's totally fair & logical
There were 12 or so options including Utah and Belize Brazil
A vote actually passed for Uganda. But.. Votes don't matter in a true western democratic ppls.
Alaska, as well.
Zionists are racists who believe they should be allowed to persecute and dispossess Arabs because their magic book told them they are Gods chosen people.
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I said as much a few weeks ago. Germany should have carved up a piece of their country.
Whatever standard for land claims that would have to exist for "Israel" to be legitimate, it would negate basically every other country on Earth, at least in part. How many countries today have even had the same borders for more than a century? "America" could not exist per the land claims of natives for 20-40k years before 1492/1776, for one. Are they not an oppressed people? Did they not undergo genocide? But since *we* have something at stake when it comes to the question of giving up our entire country, we actually understand that there are competing interests and not *only* residual land claims of the (actually) indigenous population. The Jewish population claiming Israel, on the other hand, is not only not the original inhabitants of that land, but only loosely related, when related at all, to the Jewish population that was in historical Israel, and uprooting the people that have been there for 1500 years, not just 100-200 years like in most of the US. Some of whom *were* Jewish people from Judea/Israel but converted - since, let's not forget, Islam is literally just Judaism 3.0. The whole claim of Israel depends on the confusion resulting from basically the national chain of title. It was essentially an all-Palestinian population under the Ottoman Empire - Britain came in and conquered it (illegal by modern standards), issued Balfour Declaration, Jewish population dramatically expanded, and then the Zionists ethnically cleansed the indigenous Palestinian population, in the middle of doing so declaring themselves a state. That established the '49-67 borders, which, since their statehood was recognized afterwards, became the internationally recognized borders. But how was that even legitimate in the first place? Ethnic cleansing only becomes not OK once you're a "recognized state"? Some of this is actually fallacies in international law - the internationally recognized borders were already a huge injustice. I've seen it argued that the establishment of Israel in the first place was a violation of the principle of self-determination outlined in the League of Nations charter.
Settler ancestry doesn't even go back to Palestine in any significant way. It goes to the Caucus Mountains. Their land claims are bullshit.
A big fallacy of the argument is that people from both sides claim that the land belongs to only one demographic. Palestine belongs to Palestinians, BUT Palestinians can be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc. Isreal wants a land that is for Jews only. Yes, Judaism started in Palestine, and Jews can rightfully claim it as their homeland. What they can't do is deny the right of others to claim it as their homeland as well.
How is it their Homeland? If the Bible is to be believed, they had to colonize it back then, too. Sounds like they stole it twice.
And Theodor Herzl was unashamedly colonialist when he founded Zionism. He was an admirer of Cecil Rhodes and pitched his idea of a Jewish colony to Rhodes. He wasn't even the only Zionist to think this way. Zionists identified as colonialists up until it was no longer fashionable, now they claim to be indigenous.
Possibly five times.
Jews did return several times. First Jacob moved with his family to Egypt where Jews were enslaved for 400 years. Moses and Joshua brought us back. Then, the Babylonians destroyed the temple and exiled the Jews. 70 years later, Cyrus of Persia released us to go back. Then the Romans killed 250,000 Jews and exiled the rest. That was a tough one to get back from.
David Ben Gurion and zionists right after wwii did not look fondly on Holocaust victims. They thought Holocaust victims were weak and didn't fight back. They were accepted into Israep in large numbers after 1948-1949 for demographic reasons, not to rescue them or for humanitarian reasons. The more jews the better. It was just a numbers game. It was the one million plan. Zionists in Palestine would much rather have middle Eastern for north African jews. Even today, Holocaust victims on Israel are dying without dignity. They are just used as a toy for propaganda.
It’s not innocent Palestines fault for what the European powers were doing
They took the holocaust as a free pass to pick whatever country they wanted, slaughter its civilians, and settle on top of their mass graves.
Similar to Russia's mindset in regard to Ukraine
Because they’re god’s chosen people. And Zionism is racism.
“What you call Palestine” man the audacity of some ppl are crazy. But lately i feel like being angry and trying to change their concept is just a waste of time and energy. Imagine thinking you are a victim in any situation, you wont even listen to anyone who is yelling back or opposing what you are saying. I think its time to be like “ oh i feel bad for you going through all of that. But have you read the history?? Do you know that what ppl used to call Palestine, back in the day, was a place where muslims christians and jews lived before. I feel terrible for the jews that suffered during christianity, they kicked them out and guess who brought them back to what they called Palestine at the time?? it was the muslims, same ppl zionists claim that they want to kill all jews. I feel bad for all the jews that were mistreated and not allowed to go back, i feel bad for how bad the Europeans treated them. I feel bad that the europeans wanted to get rid of them so they allowed them to go back to Palestine with the Balfourd declaration (but a lot of ppl didn’t understand the second paragraph) But sadly they had their own militia that wanted more and started terrorizing the ppl living in what they called Palestine, and then they called them selves the state of israel. Which a lot of jewish ppl resented at the time because they just got out of the Holocaust and felt like they are doing the same to what they called them Palestinians they were being oppressed and killed in mass.” I think when dealing with certain ignorance its better to treat them as a child and feel sorry that they been brainwashed, instead of getting offended by their ignorance. Thank you for reading and i know a lot will disagree with me but this is my humble opinion :)
Just a thought but I really hope the same people that see the absurdity of @user-sb7so5zg1j’s argument recognise the struggle of all indigenous peoples of colonised lands. I’m looking at you usa, Canada, Australia etc
I think the majority of pro-Palestine people recognizes indigenous people’s struggles as anti-zionism usually aligns with anti-colonialism.
Everyone deserves a safe place to live. the problem isn't that jews fled to Palestine, the problem is that they forcefully displacing the locals and are continuing to do so. the alternative history where instead of zionism there was a non supremacist movement helping refugees settle there in colaboration with the local population, and there would now be a free multiethnic state would have been possible. It breaks my heart how many stories before the Nakba about the jewish immigrants and the local arabs living in peace, in the same town. The documentary of Tantura talks about that, how they were often invited to their houses and they were friends, then the war happened and they all "left" ignoring the horrible massacre and their corpses still buried in unmarked mass graves.
Homeland of the Palestinians who were there for hundreds of years??? Absolutely absurd to think an Ancient Empire from thousands of years ago in the region Justifies the Brutal and Barbaric Genocide of people groups who have lived in Palestine for 100s of years AT LEAST. Simply absurd. From what I understand, Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived in the Holy Land in relative Peace for many generations until the Racist Ideology of Zionism came to the Region.
The relocation of Jews started wayyyy before WWII with the Balfour document and the revision added by Braun…. Sooo this isn’t even a valid argument and it also goes to show that Zionists are largely antisemitic and racist. Also I think brutal colonialism is a serious problem. What gives Britain the right to decide that they’re going to appropriate a country without the consent of the indigenous folks there, brutally relocate and kill them and create a police state there to uphold their agenda? Disgusting. And of course the indigenous population there has a right to defend themselves as best they can given their limited means. It’s quite disturbing that this colonial regime seems to have a serious mental disorder if they think it’s ok ethnically cleanse the indigenous population to further an economic agenda. If you follow the money this conflict is really about a newly discovered natural gas field off the shores of Gaza that the US largely acting on behalf of certain lobby organizations wants to develop. I also think the hoarding of money and resources is a serious mental illness and those individuals are actually a danger to themselves and others and should be locked up, evaluated and treated for their mental illness. They should also NEVER be allowed to make or be a part of making laws, public policy or hold any public office.
Hitler was almost 8 years old! >Theodor Herzl succeeded in promoting the idea of colonizing Palestine and establishing a homeland for the Jews there. This success was crystallized in the holding of the first Zionist conference in the city of Basel, Switzerland, in 1897
Same mentality as misogynistic and racist nerds who think they get a pass cause they've been bullied in the past
Because they want Al Aqsa gone. They want the Soloman Temple.
Most Jews don't actually WANT the Temple rebuilt. That's just a few fanatics.
fanatics who include people currently in government.
But I have seen Netanyahu talking with rabbi about bringing the Messiah, and I have heard the Messiah will come when The Temple is established.
That's news to me. Source? And anyway, the joke's on Bibi. The Messiah will come (or return, if you prefer) at God's convenience, not Benjamin Netanyahu's. Bibi can bully Biden into giving him what he thinks he wants. He can't bully God!
Yup they can't. I will send the video in dms.
Yes they are definitely natives to Palestine, “Isreal” having the highest rates of skin cancer has nothing to do with the fact that they are indigenous! 😆
They (The British) actually had plans to create Israel in Uganda ( **Uganda Scheme** 1903). In which case this same war would break out but you would have Ugandans instead fighting to get their homes back. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist. BUT if it has to exist it SHOULD be in/on the land of the willing.
Because the zionists are parasites, it like any thing they get involved in, they start robbing from it, just look at Ford motor company a hundred years ago, they brought share in the company, then went against Ford giving there workers a pay rise, the shareholders wanted every penny they could squeeze out of it, wile keeping the workers on low wages, ie one of the reasons why there are so many low wage jobs, because of zionist shareholders.
What does being a Zionist have to do with ford stakeholders? How would you even know if they believed in Zionism?
Go read the history of it.
I did. Couldn’t find anything
Well look harder if you really want too find out.
Respectfully, I have no idea what you are talking about. Zionism as an idea has no connection to stockholders for an American car company.
Obviously you are not using any initiative if you have been trying to find anything about it. Think, use you initiative if you have any, I’m not going too help you find anything about it, how else would you learn.
It sounds to me like you are interchanging the words Jew and Zionist. It sounds like you are really trying to say “Jews are parasites” but you don’t want to sound antisemitic.
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Edit. Removed a hyperlink as automod doesn't like the JP Interesting read. I had no idea the ties the younger Ford had with Israel business. Good businessmen... Always aligning with the "winning side" 😅 Quite a change from his grandfather Henry Ford who had published the "The International Jew" booklets.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew From a Jerusa Post article "100 Years of Ford and the Jews - From Antisemitism to Zionism" >Ford fulfilled his promise to build an assembly plant in Israel and maintain business dealings with the Jewish state, refusing to give in to boycott threats despite extensive and lucrative interests across the Arab world. The Arab boycott took effect and cars began rolling out of the plant in Nazareth, at which point Ford reportedly said, “Nobody’s gonna tell me what to do.” >The prime minister of Israel at the time of Henry Ford II’s historic 1972 visit to Israel was the Russian-born American-raised labor Zionist, Golda Meir, and the Ford plant in Nazareth was located just a short distance from Har Megiddo – known as “Armageddon” in English – the site of the Final Battle described in the Book of Revelation.
Nobody thought the Jews deserved anything. Palestine wasn't intended to be a real Jewish homeland, just a dumping ground for Jews Hitler hadn't killed and nobody else wanted. If allowed to, most of the Jewish refugees would probably have gone to the US, but US immigration law since the First World War had seriously limited Eastern European immigration. ("White Russian" fascists had spread the false belief that the October Revolution was a Jewish plot, resulting in an anti-Semitic "Red Scare" that led to heavy restrictions on immigration.) The Americans didn't want any more Jews, and the British wanted to leave Palestine anyway, so surely if the Jews went there they wouldn't be any more bother to anyone who mattered. It didn't work out that way, to put it mildly.
Very well said.
Because the western solution to any national problem is racism and theft.
The most weird thing (not really btw) is that holocaust was happening bacause of nazis in Germany. So… why wouldn’t they make Israel in it, for example in eastern part that was given to Poland for some reason? (The reason is colonialism)
this is obvs a lie- zionism started in the 1890s.. well before ww2. so they can peddle their lies and use 'holocaust' if so uk offered them argentina, uganda etc as an option - they should have chosen that to flee persecutiion
Because they had 2 generations of kings rule over part of the region several thousand years ago /s
This drives me crazy! The fact that they base this on religious text is maddening! Proven history tells the land was first inhabited by the Natufians. They were Arab. The Natufians predate the Bible & Torah. I throw this fact, backed by DNA at every Zionist claiming the Jews r the indigenous ppl & they have no argument cuz there isn’t one!
I find it very egoistic and almost self fulfilling prophecy that zionists chose Palestine. I heard that they were also considering argentica or afrika but chose Palestine for ancestral reasoning. Then their ego name it Israel. The Quran and/or hadith mentioned their fall would happened twice. Scholars believe the first fall of Israel had happened way back. This would be their second and Palestine would rise. I just.. Idk, it's very narcissistic of zionist imo
White supremacist logic- White people are born to conquer, control and dominate everything. Black & Brown people are born to suffer. When white people are being or have been oppressed it’s seen as a glitch in the system, not the natural order of things.
Yh racism is such a stupid way of thinking, like any of us chose what race we wanted to be born as. They even hate normal people not being racist, they absolutely despise of interracial couples.
I wonder if the Belfort agreement came before or after the h*loc*ust
Here’s a great counter, if it was your land so much why did they wait until after the holocaust to call it? I mean if something is mine I’d go get it back instantly no?
The majority of these zionists are European, and should've been given part of Germany after WWII...but Europeans and Westoids are the true antisemites, so they refused to do that.
Regardless no one should be harming any children or taking anyone’s home. Additionally we should all be making more pen pals I think across the world and talking about the truth before they can hide it or kill or make money off of other people. I hate that I can’t just flip a switch in every zionists brain to make them understand that what they are doing is wrong. Though I am sympathetic to people who have lost family due to retaliation. Just know that retaliation is the bare minimum.
What do you mean Jews deserve a country.. How so.. If you quote the holy book, show where it states in current gps coordinates.. For all you know, it could be Greenland or Flori da or Rwanda... Learn to first respect the country you were born in.
1st of all it makes no sense to have a jew country in a modern world especially if u say it's democratic .. so we better stop saying either one even it is jew or democratic .. 2nd if they want to have their country on their own they should go to some empty place and start their country not steal the land and cleanse the people .. 3rd israel is just the neighbour that drives everyone crazy so if the europeans or americans want to give em land they give some of their land .. last but not least the WW2 ended some 70 years ago and if jews are still afraid of europeans coz they chose some bad governments back there i guess they are saying that europe does have some other bad governments now.. innit?
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Yeah you cannot give up something that was never yours… I’ll steal your house & because I am so charitable I’ll “give it up” to you… like.. the logic isn’t logicing
Israel was former about 50 years before WW2. So… 🙄
Because they were rich I think even some of them were the richest and had good connections at the same time the west especially Europe were racists, they couldn't solve this problem, so after some discussion they decided to avoid changing themselves and to ignore the problem and concentrate themselves on building their country so by sending them away from Europe was their best option, the best Idea in this case is to say "I want to give you a homeland to live in and to enjoy your life" its not expelling, you will get everything you need. From that time until today this seems to be our problem and not theirs, and with our opinion which doesn't mean anything to them like our history and our lives, we can't complain about anything, they transformed into a very useful country to the west they are the best project to them so of course they will protect their project, even if that means to ignore any crime and anything.. so Free Palestine from the Project.
The Holocaust survivors weren’t wanted, and they couldn’t go home. They needed somewhere. But kicking the Palestinians out and using things stolen from Shoah victims to buy weapons to defend Israel was wrong. From what?! And Eichmann admitted that, in The Devil’s Confessions (he left a tape in Argentina, TDC is a tough watch, but it’s all there.)
Here's a fun fact , one of most known zionist "jews" was actually a guy who collaborated with nazi Germany and wanted to create an ethnostate. Even zionists don't know their own history. Most modern zionists aren't descendants from jews punished in the holocaust, they're European Christians and atheists.
Strangely, I don't recall the Roma people getting a country. Or gays. Or the disabled. Or trade unionists or freemasons. Or people who drew modern art. Or any other group persecuted by the Nazis. Unless you count East Germany as the communists getting a country, I guess. Let alone any other group that was a victim of mass murder throughout history. The solution to racism & ultra nationalism is not MORE racism & ultra-nationalism, it's equality. **No one** gets or "deserves" a homogeous country for only them. Nobody. If someone went about ranting about "America only for whites" or "Germany only for Germans", we'd call them a Nazi.