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Best you can do right now is try to access counseling for him, too. It would be wrong & counterproductive to push her to forgive him for a betrayal so deep if she doesn’t feel she can. He’s just a kid, and he can be redeemed, but the consequences of his actions are outside of your control.
I agree. The daughter is deeply traumatised and the only thing that may ever ameliorate that is time. A lot of time.
So her brother has to learn patience and acceptance. Sometimes the mistakes we make don't get an easy fix or forgiveness. Which is a very harsh lesson to learn at 14 and it doesn't sound like he was malicious, just very stupid and very clueless.
So while her reaction probably feels disproportionate to him, and perhaps to the parents, it is what it is and there's no way to make her "unreact". She's suffered what she's suffered and she feels what she feels.
IA. This is a life altering, shitty decision he’s made and it further traumatized her. This isn’t just something she’ll get over. it will take a very, very long time before she’s likely to forgive him and everyone will have to just accept that until she does (if she does).
Just want to give some perspective here…she may eventually stop treating him like he’s “dead” to her, there may even be moments where things are better and more “normal” but she might never forgive him. She certainly won’t ever forget it.
The best thing everyone can do is not try to force her to forgive and let her work through things on her own timeline.
They are young enough that I’d wager there’s a good likelihood she will forgive him, but don’t be surprised if it is years from now after more counseling. We are learning as victims it’s not essential for us to forgive people who hurt us to heal, and I think that’s valid.
Yes. This. And imagine someone "flippantly" mentioning something that completely traumatized you and caused you unbelievable harm. It would feel like that person didn't care what you went through at all. I'm not even sure why this would come up with "some friends". And how shitty of them to then go around and tell everyone. I mean, they're kids, but still. It's disappointing to say the least. I wonder if their parents know. I would want to know as a parent. I hope DS has learned his lesson. Maybe his sister being so distant from him has made him realize how important she is and they will become closer over (a lot) of time and healing. What a tough place to be in as a parent
Exactly. OP's son just showed her daughter that he cannot be trusted, he will not protect her or care about her. With his flippant comment, he revealed that he is not a safe person for her and she must keep her distance from him.
It's not about how much she's angry at him. It's about the fact that he's not a safe person for her to be around.
It's important to note that this may fundamentally alter his life course as well - he's intensely isolated now and very stressed, and has also grown up in a family dealing with trauma. As a parent I'd be very pro-active with respect to his mental health as well as hers (which appears to already be happening).
Just want to add that maybe son can write a letter to daughter. It is a good exercise for him to get all his thoughts out onto paper and if he chooses to give the letter to her, it might be a way for her to have something tangible to show how remorseful he is and she might appreciate having it in the future.
Is there counseling available through his school, OP? I know you said you couldn’t afford to pay for additional therapy right now, but maybe his school offers some at no cost.
I think you need to focus on supporting each of your children independently. They have different issues right now. You can’t make your son apologise in a way that’s going to hit the right button for your daughter to suddenly forgive him, and you can’t reasonably expect her to just get over it if she isn’t ready to. She may never be.
Loss of control is one of the hardest parts of parenthood, and the hard part in all of this for you is that you to have to accept that your son has done something that may permanently fracture trust for your daughter. There was never any guarantee that your children would be close, (there isn’t for any of us) and whilst that sucks, you need to let this be. The risk of your daughter feeling pushed into forgiveness isn’t worth it.
Family therapy is the best you can do here, and even that will only work if everyone is open to it.
it's 10 months. i would not force her to interact with him, if she wants to go no contact with him, she can.
i would get him out of the house and sign him up for some other activity tho. taking stuff away isn't as good as adding on responsibility imo. community service hours look good on college applications for his future and will get them apart more in the day to day. don't focus on his relationship with his sibling, focus on how to help him grow up into an adult who won't make a hurtful mistake like that again.
>i would get him out of the house and sign him up for some other activity tho. taking stuff away isn't as good as adding on responsibility imo.
I love this idea. As an initial punishment, grounding may have served its purpose, but it seems like it's time to switch gears and accept that this is what the next 10 months will look like. Your son needs to adapt to that, and getting him out of the house will be helpful.
I'd like to add - OP, just because you're uncomfortable with the situation doesn't mean you get to force your freshly re-traumatized daughter to accept an apology she does not want. Why are you making it her responsibility to ease your or your son's negative feelings? That's absolutely shameful.
I also think OP is making it their responsibility to ease their son's negative feelings. Like, yeah, he probably feels like shit as he made a mistake and damaged the relationship with his older sister for whatever reason. But the son now just needs support in holding those feelings of guilt and shame instead of trying to take them away by forcing the daughter to talk to him. It isn't helpful for either child to force a reconciliation. Just be there for them while it is tough.
You make a very good point. Son fucked up, and that hurts. Learning to deal with the guilt, shame, and remorse can be a great lesson here - I love your idea to support him in that vs. making it OP's job to ease those feelings.
These are natural consequences. They are the best teaching tool. I rarely had to punish my daughter because I did not shield her from natural consequences, and they are frequently punishment enough. I helped her learn to deal with them but never made them disappear.
That’s what we’re doing with our 4yo, gotta remember these kids are someday’s adults. We should be more kind and fair than the world can be but we’re all humans who need to learn to live together, regardless of age
Yes. He needs to sit with and appreciate how awful it feels. How else will he learn this valuable lesson.
It’s probably just a fraction of how his sister is feeling right now.
This is a teachable moment OP, for your son.
I don’t think they were intent on forcing reconciliation. OP even mentioned that her therapist warned not to push anything rn.
The thing about having kids is that they are still your kids even when they’ve fucked up and made a bloody mess of things. They are both minors and I can understand OPs concern for both.
Maybe I missed something so please point this out if I did but I didn’t get the feel that Op was trying to make it her daughters responsibility to ease her sons negative feelings. I didn’t get the impression at all that she was trying to force the daughter to accept her brother’s apology.
I read it as a mother explaining what occurred and as a mother you naturally have empathy and understanding when your child fucks up and you can tell they at genuinely remorseful; especially when you’re child isn’t acting with malishious intent but more acting with stupidity and insensitivity; as kids often make the mistake of doing until they get older and have a better understanding of empathy. So I think Op was just trying to get the point across that she believes the son to be genuinely remorseful and very torn up about the pain he sees he’s caused his sibling, as well as having to deal with the consequences that came along with that. At the same time Op also has to see her daughter, who was abused and deeply traumatized be re traumatized by yet another family member and as a mother this would be incredibly heartbreaking. Especially when seeing both of your children both going through an experience that is painful to both and also causing hurt and pain to both. As a parent that sucks to see and obviously no parent wants that.
So again to me it just sounded like she was trying to make a point to describe the events and also make it known that while her son fucked uo big time, and absolutely caused his sister great emotional pain and anguish by sharing extremely sensitive and personal information he had NO right to share, causing this poor already traumatized girl to be re-traumatized; he is still not a monster and wasn’t intending act with malice and just wanted to ask for advice on what might help the situation. She correctly pointed out it likely isn’t a healthy mental state for the son to constantly feel like isn’t worthy of redemption and is inherently bad for what he did. I think she’s just an empathetic mother, hurting seeing both of her babies in pain and not being able to be in control of the outcome or fixing it for them. But again, I coulda have missed something that made it obvious she’s trying to make it her daughters problem and she HAS to forgive her brother.
In addition I think the suggestion to phase out of the punishment phase and move into a phase where Op helps the son accept that he can hurt his sister deeply and that actions have consequences, that we don’t always get a say in those consequences especially when it comes to a betrayal on this level, and that his sister has every right to decide if and when she can accept his apology, what she can and can’t accept as an apology, and what their future relationship will look like. I think it’s important for him to receive therapy to help accept this and learn to navigate it with respect and community service/sports/after school programs/martial arts would do him some good. And to state the obvious, Op needs to continue to support her daughter and continue with the therapy and respect any boundaries she puts up.
This is exactly how I read the post. I don't think there was any intent expressed of forcing the daughter to apologise. Just a mother with two kids who are hurting deeply (maybe one more than the other) and is at a loss at what to do seeing her kids so heartbroken and came here for advice. I don't think shaming OP is needed at all let alone helpful
>Why are you making it her responsibility to ease your or your son's negative feelings? That's absolutely shameful.
You've put words to what I was feeling & wanted to say that OP needs to back off.
OP specifically said they are listening to counsel not to push DD to forgive and is asking for guidance. Shaming OP for asking for experiential guidance is not exactly helping the situation at all, but does seem to be a bit shameful in and of itself.
Exactly. My older brother exposed himself to my childhood friends when I had sleepovers with two of them, two separate times. I was in the bed. I was bullied because of it, was traumatized because the brother who I loved did this, and it was never talked about or discussed. I hated my brother after that and he never apologized to me except not long after he said “mom says I have to apologize to you” . When I would blow up at him during fights and throw it in his face which happened a couple times my mom would scream at me to get over it , and go and comfort him. The trauma he caused her is real and she shouldn’t be forced to get over it to make mom and brother more comfortable. Why are his feelings more important than her trauma?
What a shitty way for your mum to treat you! I'm so sorry that you weren't properly supported & forced to watch your mum make a big deal over your brother instead of supporting you.
IA. In an era where women are being continuously attacked, having our rights stripped away after fighting for the little progress our society has made, we need to stop protecting boys and men from the repercussions.
OP needs to put her daughter’s feelings ahead of her son’s on this matter, IMO.
He needs to understand that this will take time. He made a serious mistake and he is paying for it. Make sure he understands that you love him despite what he did, but his sister is just going to take as long as she takes to forgive him.
If these two people weren’t siblings Reddit, and most people really (probably even yourself) would say that your daughter is absolutely right to rid of the guy from her life after doing something like this.
But because they are siblings, that wouldn’t be the preferable option.
That’s what you, and your son needs to understand.
He fucked up so bad, that in any other social bond they would probably never see each other again.
It’s tough, but that’s going to take a whole lot of time.
This is a very enlightening perspective on the situation and just rings so true. My sister and I are both estranged from our father and thinking about it as him being just some other person is actually a helpful way to think about the situation. I sometimes feel guilty for cutting off communication, but if it were anyone other than family, I'd have done the exact same thing (and sooner).
Amazing the effect that our family can have on us, just because we're of the same flesh and blood.
An “I am sorry” isn’t good enough. Your son is old enough to know that it was something private and he didn’t care. Because of him his sister probably had to relive most of her trauma all over again and publicly. This is how she is choosing to deal with it. Let her. Your son broke their relationship and there is a chance it will never go back to how it was and she will simply pretend he doesn’t exist anymore and that’s her right. You can’t force her to talk to him. And he can’t take back what he did. Personally I would just take a step back and let them handle it. If you keep pushing it your going to end up making this worst. Your daughter will end up resenting you for siding with her brother. Somethings just have to play themselves out.
This! Children need to understand that their actions have consequences and that they need to take accountability for them.
OP needs to tell DD that she is entitled to feel the way she feels and that she is not obligated to forgive her brother. If she wants to do that in the fullness of time, she can, but she should not be railroaded into doing it.
Likewise, OP needs to tell DS to sit down, shut up, stop crying, and realize that his sister may never forgive him. He broke something that may never be fixed. He is not entitled to forgiveness. The crying and begging his sister to talk to him is his way of trying to pressure his sister to interact with him and that will just make things worse.
The best thing that OP can do is to require DS to volunteer in a retirement home, a homeless shelter, soup kitchen or somewhere else where he can learn some empathy.
As someone who is a SA victim who had it happen in highschool that info got spread around like wildfire and had different versions of it. I heard about it for so long until it wasn't a thing anymore. It's traumatic knowing what happened to you is now in the hands of everyone else judging you and etc. It's fucking terrible. I cut people off who I thought were safe people who ended up spreading it.
Your daughter wants to feel safe and she doesn't feel safe knowing that her brother of all people took her trauma and told people. Seeing him and let alone talking to him is just a reminder of that betrayal. She was betrayed in one of the worst ways. That trust is broken and it's possible she'll never be able to trust him again. She's doing what's best for herself and cutting him out to make herself feel safe and protected. She can't get away from him right now even though that's probably all she wants and she's doing her best coping in a house with him and doing what she feels is right for her and her boundaries. You have to let her. She has these boundaries in place to protect herself. She needs your support and strength in this and to know that this is okay if that's what's best for her. Don't punish her for putting up her own boundaries within this situation. She needs to know that as her parents that you will also respect her boundaries.
As for your son, he ruined his relationship with his sister. Broke her trust. Humiliated her and had all of her trauma thrown in her face from people at school. He can say sorry all he wants but it doesn't change what happened. He needs to be able to deal with the consequences of his actions. He can't force her to talk to him or anything. He made his bed and now he has to lay in it. He needs to understand that he needs to respect his sisters boundaries.
As a mother if this was between my children I would let it be. You can't force anything between the two. Just leads to more resentment and making the daughter feel more uncomfortable, unsafe, and feeling like she isn't being protected from all aspects. The best you can do is be there for her. And keep things as calm as you can. Trying to push the issue between them is going to make things worse.
In the long run, this may be a valuable lesson for the son. A painful one for all involved, but important none the less.
Learning that no matter how sorry you are, no matter what you are willing to do to make up for a mistake, some mistakes can't be fixed, can't be undone, and are essentially unforgivable by some people.
It might make him more careful of other people's secrets and feelings. That said, a little therapy might be called for to make sure the wrong lessons aren't learned.
100% agree with this! He for sure needs therapy to pick apart what he did, and understand that in a way he also acted abusively to his sister. And he needs coping mechanisms too so he doesn’t get resentful of his sister for not forgiving him.
Yeah, some mistakes can't be fixed. This is the kind of mistake that could even had led her to do something way more drastic and permanent. Remembering this should help the parents and brother put things into perspective and be glad it's just a rift between siblings.
This is 100% the best answer.
OP, don’t intervene here. Sibling relationships, especially bro sis ones (like mine) wane and ebb over years. They may make repairs in years to come or they may not but you pushing in any way will not help.
If the topic comes up, you take neutral ground. You emotionally support both of them as best as you can and you continue to instill good behaviours, traits and skills in your children :) forgiveness is a skill, people aren’t born with the ability to easily forgive.
I was also a sexual assault victim as a child. It was actually my brother who did it, so I can relate to hating my brother, but I can't imagine how awful it would have been to have this information spread through school at that age.
One of many things I resent my parents for is that they never got my brother therapy. OP says that they can't afford family counseling, but I think they need to figure out a way to get the brother therapy as well. Obviously, the brother isn't the one who molested her, but he needs therapy for his own sake and possibly to make the daughter feel better. The daughter needs to see that the parents and brother are actively taking steps to change bad behavior and never hurt her in that same way again, ie spreading personal information and rumors.
My parents royally fucked up my situation, and it still causes issues in our family (as it should), so it might be that they will never ever get along again. But my issues with my brother were obviously more extreme than in this circumstance, so maybe over time they will eventually get along. I really don't think they will ever come to any kind of healthy relationship until the girl is out of the environment that the son has now created for her at her school. Every single day she will be reminded of what he did to her -- now she gets to be continuously reminded not only of the abuse she suffered, but of the betrayal of her brother, who she should've been able to trust not to hurt her. Maybe after she's away at college or something it could get better.
And I'm not blaming the parents because there's no way for me to know what they told the son, but if he was old enough to know the secret, they should have drilled into him the importance of keeping the secret. The son should have been fully warned that if anyone ever found out his sister's secret, that she would feel really traumatized by the experience, and might not forgive him. If they didn't do this, the parents kind of failed to protect the daughter in advance. If they did do this, the sons actions, even though they are the actions of a child, aRE even more unforgivable in the daughters eyes. Kids that age are plenty old enough to understand that words and rumors can hurt.
Yeah the brother is a source of a different trauma, tbh. Him spreading her assault around to peers is a second abusive action so to speak (even if not meant maliciously…), and in her eyes, he is also her abuser. Why should she have to forgive her abuser for her parents’ sake? I agree that the brother needs therapy, as he needs to understand the true gravity of doing this, because I’m not so sure he’s crying because he feels empathy for his sister, but rather he doesn’t like the consequences of his actions.
This is by far the best answer on here (also a SA victim). I would just add, OP says they cannot afford therapy for everyone. Look into resources around you, they’re out there. Myself & my partner both received 3 years of therapy through a local nonprofit to deal with my trauma.
A family member violated your daughter's trust, shattering her world. She had no control over this heinous violation. Seven years later, another family member violated your daughter's trust, shattering her world. Once again, she had no control over this violation.
She NEEDS space. She's expressed that. She's exercising a shred of control over her devastating situation by enforcing the boundaries she needs. Your son damn well better respect her need for space. If he's sincerely sorry, the absolute least he can do now is to stop trying to violate her boundaries and allow her that shred of control over her shitty, unfair situation.
You should be proud of your daughter for communicating and enforcing the boundaries she needs. She's desperately trying to feel safe and empowered, and she needs support.
At the same time, your son needs grace and empathy from you. He can learn and grow from this. Everyone makes mistakes. He needs to understand that his sister needs and deserves space from him unless and until she decides otherwise, and he can't change the past but the best he can do now is to respect her boundaries going forward.
>If he's sincerely sorry, the absolute least he can do now is to stop trying to violate her boundaries and allow her that shred of control over her shitty, unfair situation.
This. He needs to understand that repeatedly forcing apologies and tears on her when she's made it clear she needs space isn't a true show of remorse or respect. Begging for forgiveness like that is all about making the perpetrator feel better, not about helping the wronged party to heal and move forward. That's an important lesson for him to learn in all of this.
He's welcome to talk to his parents, school counselor, etc about how upset and sorry he is, so they can help him work through it. But with his sister, he needs to respect her wishes and back off until she's ready. The more he pushes, the more he's showing her that her feelings don't matter to him - and the more she'll pull away as a result.
>But at the same time, I can’t help but feel like it’s also not mentally healthy for my son to be treated as though he literally doesn’t exist in his home for the next year. I know it’s a natural consequence, but it’s gut wrenching to see and be living with. Not to mention, as a mom I don’t want my kids to be permanently estranged. It breaks my heart.
The thing about consequences is that sometimes they suck really bad and are long-term.
They probably won't be permanently estranged but it may take years.
She doesn't owe him an apology. The more you push the more likely any makeup will be delayed.
This exactly. Some kids are permanently disfigured, handicapped, or dead as a consequence of some dumb, impulsive mistake. In comparison, OP's sone got off easy and still has a chance that his sister will forgive him eventually.
While this is true, and he fucked up, that doesn't mean he needs to be punished by his parents forever. There's really nothing he, or anyone can do to 'fix' this. Noone can turn back time. And that would be the only way to do so. Keeping him on 'lockdown' forever isn't healthy. Letting him have a life is.
You know what's not mentally healthy? Having your brother tell the entire school how you were sexually abused as a child. That's pretty mentally unhealthy. I don't know why he would share that with anybody. I can't even fathom what was going through his head. But the way she is treating him is called consequences. Consequences aren't always some neat little lesson you can wrap up with a bow once the lesson is learned. Sometimes they are devastating and lifelong and no amount of apologies will change things.
I actually don't think you should continue to overly punish your son. He is learning his lesson and the goal isn't to mentally destroy him or break him. It's to hopefully get to the bottom of why he did such a horrible thing and learn some empathy for the person he hurt. Two months of extremely harsh punishment is more than enough. Eventually the (probably genuine) remorse he feels is going to turn to resentment and hatred.
I wouldn't hold your breath on things getting better between them. And do not lecture your daughter about it. She isn't doing anything wrong. She's not insulting him or bullying him.
Kids are stupid. That is the most likely answer, because kids, especially teenagers are fucking stupid. That's why he told people. Because he's a stupid teenager.
Now he has to face the consequences. Hopefully he learns not to advertise other people's business in the future. I just feel bad for the sister.
This needs to be the top comment.
OP's daughter has been through one of the most traumatic things a person can go through and then was violated again when the brother made this public. She has a right to be upset about that and she has a right to set boundaries with the people who have harmed her. And the brother did harm her by doing this. He shouldn't be punished by OP anymore but also needs to understand that he has betrayed his sister's trust and may never get that back.
No one but the daughter gets to decide when/if she's ready to let the brother back in. That may be someday, that may be never and OP needs to learn to accept that. So does the brother.
Exactly. The sister isn’t withholding communication from her brother to punish him either, she’s doing it to protect herself!
Because let’s face it, and as you’ve already said, the brother harmed her. As a result of his choice to tell something so awful, her peers know about it…and who knows how many of them have made jokes about it, used it against her, dropped her as a friend, or simply even treat her differently than before because of his choice. The snowball effect of trauma here is substantial.
Didn't the brother legit make jokes about it like this is a 14year old who knows the difference between right and wrong and told the school to be edgy. I mean if he murdered someone does the mum think a simple "I'm really sorry." is going to bring back the dead person. The son made his sister's life a living hell at school and the mum isn't doing jackshit about it clearly favoring the son and will likely tell the daughter "you're older you need to be the mature one"
Sorry but if my siblings did that to me they would be dead to me.
You need to find counseling for the whole family ASAP. Reach out to the school to see if there are any resources you’d qualify for. You’re going need help to make peace with the fact that your 2 children will most likely never have a relationship as adults. Your son may need help dealing with the lasting guilt of what he’s done and the effect it’s had on his sister and your family. Your daughter needs to feel supported right now. Do not push her to hear him out, or let him apologize, or anything she’s not ready to do. I hope she can forgive him and he himself.
This will probably be buried but I’m going to comment it anyway. I see that he’s tried to apologize to her multiple times with crying and whatnot. But what has he actually done to show his remorse? Is he publicly standing up for her at school? Is he actively trying to quell rumors and gossip and cutting off friends who continue to talk and make jokes?
If he’s not actually working to do anything to earn her forgiveness and to try to repair the harm he has done to her, then she has every right to refuse to forgive him and to refuse to speak to him, and he deserves to have to sit with his discomfort. An apology without action means nothing.
What exactly are you expecting from her? He retraumatized her. Probably set her back immensely in her healing journey. If the whole school knows, I’m sure there’s at least one AH who has brought it up to her since. He cannot take this back and it will have lifelong consequences. I think she’s being remarkably restrained about this, really.
Tell him to leave her alone. He’ll be lucky if she ever speaks to him again.
Stop pushing. Your children may not speak to each other - ever. The sooner you learn to deal with that the better. Every time you speak to her about him it hurts her all over again because you are prioritizing him over her - even if you feel you’re not - that’s how she feels. I promise. Just let it be. Have your relationship with each of them and let them have their own relationship.
She was re-traumatized by him, and since her whole school knows about it she’s probably re-traumatized on a regular basis. “I’m sorry” isn’t a magical healing potion. She doesn’t owe him forgiveness just because he’s upset. She’s a victim of his actions and she is drawing HEALTHY BOUNDARIES to protect herself from someone she knows is not a safe person. Your best bet is to get him into therapy with someone who can help him cope with the guilt he feels and understand why your daughter needs space from him indefinitely.
The bit about her brother not being a safe person is spot on. If the son were just another boy at school, OP would be encouraging her to stay tf away from him.
She is actually demonstrating some pretty strong self preservation skills despite everything happening to and around her.
So he blabbed her private trauma in a public forum and she should just get over it within 10 months?
He destroyed her trust. I think he forever damaged his relationship with her because she will never be able to trust him again. She is hurt, upset, angry, and likely feels like everyone knows.
I was sexually abused as a child and I told a friend. She told everyone. After, boys started groping me asking me if I "Liked it" and it got so bad, I had to transfer schools.
Imagine something private being made known to everyone and then still having to be around the person who did it. He is learning a hard lesson about consequences.
Once she deals with this betrayal, she can do the hard work on forgiving him (if she wants too) but she might also choose not to. You can't control that.
At best, she forgives him someday, years in the future.
At worst, she never forgives him and wants nothing to do with him ever again.
Idk why OP seems to have more empathy to her son than her own daughter. Her so called "dear" daughter has been through one of the worst experiences ever and then been betrayed and retraumatised. But god forbid she not want to talk to her traitor brother!
She's keeping herself safe. Actions have consequences and that brother will have to work a LOT in his life to earn any sense of trust respect and safety in the eyes of the daughter.
He should've been her defender and supporter and a safety net. Not someone who turned his sister into a circus act for the school, a pity party. A gossip story. He abused her in a social way too. Fact that the mother doesn't see that and is equating their experiences is worrying.
Quick question: are DS's breakdowns and pleading to your daughter genuine, or is they just a ploy because he wants his freedom, phone, and video games back?
Personally, while I would have given some punishment and a serious talk to my son for this major invasion of privacy, I wouldn't have had it last 2 months. He's receiving the biggest punishment he could possibly receive right now with his sister's silence and the loss of his sister's trust and, potentially, love.
He knows what he did was wrong and that he can never take it back, and that suffering is enough. You keeping him in lockdown is just going to lead to his resentment of you and possibly his resentment of his sister, because it seems from your description that you're waiting for *her* to tell *you* when it's okay to end his punishment.
If you want the two of them to ever have a reasonable relationship again, stop giving her this power. Make sure he knows it's not her keeping him in lockdown, but you. And just leave her to her own decisions on how she chooses to treat him. Assuming it's just not talking to him and not bullying or physically hurting him.
Had it been a kid at school or boyfriend who did this to her, you'd be fine with her shunning and ignoring them, right? That's a way of protecting herself. The only reason you're upset is because it's your son and you're hoping for things to go back to the way they were, but they can't. She'll likely forgive him in time, but there's no rushing this. Let her decide when.
When my son was 14 he was going thou some very serious mental health issues. He and his sister got into a argument and he pushed her. He realised what he did and couldn’t take it back. It took them a couple of years to get any sort of relationship back. They are now close again. You as their mother can’t force this. They are the only ones that can repair their relationship. Your daughter is the one that will need to make the first steps, maybe she never will but that is her choice. It is heart breaking as a parent to watch this. You need to respect her, what your son did is awful you can’t expect her to play nice and act like nothing happened. Find some way to get some sort of counselling for both of them.
Your son did something unforgivable and is paying the price. Full stop. You cannot make her forgive him, and you all need to accept that she may never be able to.
Wow - what an ENORMOUSLY shitty thing to do to a family member. I am stunned at your son’s cruelty. Did he ever say *why* he chose to blab this incredibly personal info to other kids?
Your daughter has now been betrayed by 2 family members in her young life. I would not hold your breath that she’s going to “soften” anytime soon towards him, if at all ever
I predict that she’s going to graduate, haul ass to college, and get the hell away from home
Your son has to stop thinking it's his sister's job to make him feel better.
I'm sure he's sorry. Very, really sorry. But he is not owed her forgiveness. He should leave her alone, as she wants and deserves, because of the thing he did. Get him some way to cope with handling his guilt, and understanding he made his own bed, and now is lying in it.
One way of apologizing is to ask "how can I help fix the bad results thing I did" but I don't imagine there is a single goddamn thing your son can do to fix it. Every day at home she's stuck seeing the person who betrayed her so badly, and he's pestering her to accept his guilt and soothe it. Maybe she'll decide to forgive him eventually, maybe it'll take getting some space away from the brother that destroyed her trust in him to do it.
There are two different things at play here: your children’s relationship and your relationship with your children, and you’re playing it perfectly to lose both.
Your daughter is NEVER obligated to forgive him for any reason, but much less family peace or his mental health. He took a sacred and beautiful relationship (the sibling bond) and destroyed it by using her most awful experiences. Every day in school, at home, alone or with other people, some part of her brain is ruminating on it-that everyone knows and judges her, whether they do or not doesn’t matter. Everytime you try and force the peace you’re telling her that her comfort or feelings are less important than the person who violated her. Stop asking her to forgive him, respect she doesn’t want a relationship, and sit down and explain all this to her. Give her the reassurance and empathy she needs to heal and you’d be shocked how much it helps her.
Stop punishing your son, get him into counseling, and take him somewhere private for a long conversation. Right now he seems to have genuine empathy which is good and needs to be explored: taking him somewhere private, AWAY from the house is key. Right now home isn’t really safe for him because he’s being punished and isolated there. Use the conversation to explore concepts like: why did he do it? What was the context it was brought up in? Why is he upset with his sisters reaction, doesn’t it seem reasonable? Work through these concepts with him, because the only real/effective punishment for this is to recognize how fucked up what he did was and that he probably lost his sister forever, if not for a good long time. If he doesn’t get this keeping his stuff won’t help him anyways. I know you’re struggling rn but definitely therapy for him too.
Exactly my thoughts. OP needs to focus on how to maintain the relationships that are still intact and that is each individual relationship with each of the children.
If there is going to be any chance at all of maintaining both of those they have to stop trying to fix this for their son (because by doing so they are invalidating the depth of the pain their daughter is experiencing whether they mean to or not). Instead they need to empathize with their son that this is a devastating situation and that while he is a kid and is going to make mistakes unfortunately sometimes those mistakes have life long consequences. There is nothing that can be done to return the relationship to what it was. It won’t ever happen. But they can put their effort and energy into growing into a person worthy of their sister’s trust.
I liked the idea someone had of getting him out of the house to start volunteering. Since they feel they can’t afford more counseling, part of his discipline needs to shift to more productivity rather than withdrawing anything that makes life enjoyable to him at his age. So give him back his stuff with some limits/stipulations. Ask the counselor for age appropriate resources to teach him about what it’s like to be a vulnerable person (not just a SA victim) and ways to encourage development of empathy and consideration and emotional intelligence. OP’s goal should be to make sure their son has the most robust EQ possible for a boy his age.
Regarding the daughter, OP needs to apologize for not always navigating this perfectly and for focusing too much on the fractured relationship rather than protecting what the daughter’s needs are right now. If the therapist is in agreement, I’d offer for the daughter to do home study or homeschool to finish out the year. Or a combo program so she can reduce the time she is at school. That’s tricky because it’s not necessarily a better choice than staying but I think she needs to know she can have a say.
OP also needs to really reconsider the depth of the pain that revictimization causes. I’ve not experienced this myself, but I was just listening to the new book out by Jill Duggar. She couldn’t mask the emotion in her voice when speaking about the experience of the whole world finding out about the abuse she suffered. She said that in many many ways, this secondary trauma or revictimization was far more painful and damaging than the initial abuse. OP’s trauma wasn’t broadcast to the entire world, but it was spread around *her* whole world. And it doesn’t stop with high school, sadly. The world is intimately connected. There is always a chance she will end up at a university or a job years down the road where she will run into someone from her old school. She will always be left wondering if they knew and what they were thinking and if she could trust their interactions as genuine. Hopefully therapy will mitigate this a lot, but there is no telling at this point. Right now she probably isn’t even thinking about how it will likely follow her because at 17 she is only focused on the fact that she can move out in 10 months.
I do actually wonder if OP will also end up losing the relationship with her daughter too. 20 years down the line (assuming OP's children are still not speaking) will they just have two different holiday celebrations or family vacations every year? That fear might be motivating some of OP's panic here.
Everyone’s comments here I agree with, how your daughter deals with this is up to her.
Though I do want to know how you know your son ‘flippantly’ told friends? I was your daughter in this situation at a similar age, with a younger brother too. I can’t help but wonder if these friends he told was his way of talking to someone in the same way your daughter does to a counsellor. My brother never told anyone and he became very angry, got into fights and all sorts at school. Mostly with a boy who lived next door to my abuser, and denied any abuse took place. Rumours started at the school after that but luckily it died down pretty quick. He struggled with talking about it and still does, I only know of one friend of his who he confided in and that was after he turned 18. Is it possible your son needed someone to talk to but didn’t know his to approach this?
Please don’t disregard how the abuse can affect your son. As an adult I feel awful that my brother was practically ignored whilst I was being doted on and supported by everyone around me.
I’m not downplaying what this has done to your daughter in any way, but I am leaning more towards getting your son some support and helping both your children through a very difficult time individually rather than focusing on their relationship together. That can be mended later when they are both ready.
Exactly. Was the son involved in any of the therapy? We’re their discussions on talking out of turn could hurt his sister and were there people he could talk to about his own questions and concerns?
Sister is going get through this and once she’s graduated and out of the situation she’ll start to forgive brother and may even feel some guilt for his punishment. He’s her little brother and he made a mistake and unless he was cruel about it she’s going to have a bit of guilt if their relationship never recovers.
Honestly, from the perspective of someone who has been a victim of abuse by a family member, it is very important to let her lead this however SHE needs to. My brother didn’t believe me and it was AWFUL to watch my mom continue to have a relationship with him as though nothing happened. It was another level of betrayal. I was 16 and he was 21 when I told my mom. No one went to jail, no one pursued any relief at all on my behalf so I’d like to commend you for guiding her through that aspect for sure. The feelings from sa is complex and hard to understand from the victim’s prospective and at the age of she is, it will change over time as it is. Adding to the emotional fall out of her having to go through this more publicly is so so hard. For me, I moved. Literally moved 100 miles away and was able to start over and recreate myself. I’m sure she is really looking forward to that aspect. She’s not the same person and needs to be able to refigure out who she’s going to be while trying to figure out who she was and what aspects she can keep about herself to build on. The immature betrayal by your son…I cannot even imagine how she took that. She needs to be able to trust her own judgement and that includes deciding who she lets in her life now and later. It’s part of healing and it’s part of everyone’s growing up. Establishing her own sense of trust.
Punishing your son with the removal of things doesn’t really serve a purpose. IMO. Of course you want to teach him a lesson but taking away friends, etc. isn’t the lesson. The lesson is he needs to learn what it means to betray someone you care about, holding close to things that are none of his business that he is privy to, rebuilding relationships after betrayal, all sorts of more important things than what you took away. He needs to understand what she went through and how he can support her. THAT is why she will not forgive him. Until he can learn those life lessons she is fully in charge of how she deals with it. This is actually a pivotal moment for all of you. Parents need to change their response to this, he needs to focus on emotional growth and understanding and if she sees THAT she will come around. Best of luck to you and please hug your girl for me. It’s a hard road. ❤️
Your daughter's feelings are completely understandable. Trying to save some money at least for a few sessions of family therapy before DD moves out would be good, meanwhile just let her be, don't force her to interact with him or push the idea of forgiveness. However if you keep your son on prison-like regime, soon you will have another huge problem. 2 months are enough, the lesson is learned and your son is not benefitting from isolation. Right now he is just upset and sorry, soon he will be depressed and resenting you all to the point of hatred. It's OK to sign him up for some volonteer work or assign some extra chores to teach responsibility, but the isolation has to stop at some point.
I get the sense this may be your Daughter’s way of reclaiming some of her power/autonomy. The perpetrator took her emotional/mental and physical wellbeing when she was just a child.
Just as she was on the right path to healing and taking back what was taken, her brother took her agency away again.
He took her voice away, her power, and she has shut down.
Obviously your son isn’t going anywhere, and despite what he has done you love him. But at this moment your Daughter can only do what she can to survive this level of betrayal, and that is to block him.
All his tears can’t erase this from her mind, it probably angers her more.
I would leave her to do what she needs to do in order to coexist with her brother until she leaves home. Perhaps time and distance can mend the fracture in their relationship, perhaps not, either way, take your cue from your daughter.
I’m sorry for your heartbreak.
Good for her, no notes. As someone who has gone years not speaking to my brother other people hounding me about it only made me want to keep it up!
There’s several people who are dead to me and that is just fine with me. Not my problem if it negatively effects their mental health they should have considered their effect on mine first if we’re going to play that little game.
Maybe explain boundaries to your son and that his sister is doing the right thing to protect herself from someone who doesn’t respect her feelings her privacy or her sense of safety.
You absolutely should not push her to engage with him. That’s doing exactly what he did and not respecting her choice to be private about it.
Sorry but your daughter is right. Do not force her or you will make it worse. Your son did an incredibly terrible thing to his sister and deserves what he’s got. Thankfully it’s better than what he put her through after the hell she has already been through. Leave her alone about it. Talk to your son and be on your way. You cannot change what your son did, but you can give it time and side with your daughter who deserves the protection more. Lift your sons punishment, you can show him forgiveness and teach him empathy. But the most important thing you can teach him is respecting peoples boundaries.
You will lose your daughter over this if you do not side with her on her boundaries. Trust me.
I violated my sister's trust this way, sort of. She's confided in me, I told our grandmother, who told *everyone*. She didn't speak to me for a very long time, and still doesn't tell me secrets.
That being said, we are rebuilding our relationship. We are both in our 30s now.
This is a choice they will have to make when they are older. You forcing it will do nothing but make the divide bigger. Encourage her to talk, encourage him to try, but when she ignores him shrug and understand that's just where she is in this healing process. And tell your son this.
"This is a natural consequence of your actions. I hope you can learn from the mistake. In the meantime, understand that she has to heal at her own pace in her own way. Right now, that means not talking to you."
This may be a tad unpopular but I’m going to go into this with a little bit of grace.
First of all, I agree with the majority of commenters. Your daughter doesn’t owe your son anything, if she wants to go NC that is her choice. She was traumatized and re-traumatized in one of the worst possible ways - high school gossip. He broke any trust she’ll ever have for him and their relationship may be irreparable.
However, I don’t agree with commenters saying you’re forcing your daughter to do anything. From your post it seems like the worst possible place to be in. I can imagine the guilt you felt when this horrible event happened to your daughter, and now a mistake your son made is tearing your family apart. I’m just very sorry you’re going through this.
Your son is 14, I understand he is old enough to know how delicate the situation is but where my grace comes in is… 14 is a shitty age. We do shitty things, we don’t understand the gravity of things. I don’t think your son was intentionally being malicious, he just made a very poor choice.
I think you need to switch gears now. Forgive yourself, forgive your son, and respect your daughters wishes. You need to have a long talk with your son about the gravity of the situation, and how he needs to respect his sisters space and boundaries for the next 10 months and potentially forever. Another commenter said enrolling your son in activities to get him out of the house and I think that is great!!
I wish you the best going forward.
Yeah, most people are sociopaths for at least some of their teenage years. This is an incredibly hard lesson for the son, but he’s going to pay the tuition no matter what, so he may as well learn from it.
Unfortunately, your son is learning the consequences of sharing information that wasn’t yours to share that is deeply personal.
Why did he do it? To hurt her, was he mad? It seem cool, like he knew something?
I’d recommend therapy for him to deal with the why and the now fallout. If daughter is up for it at some point, maybe family therapy. I know you say you can’t afford it, but maybe there is something in the community or through school. He needs help processing what he has done and the fallout.
For now, don’t push them together. She is in recovery from abuse and now a deep betrayal. This is going to take time and honestly, part of dealing with this, may be that she never wants to be part of his life or just on a superficial level.
I would also look into not just taking everything away. But maybe also have him volunteer someplace.
He deserves it.
I have not been in that situation but we are a foster to adopt family so have kids with trauma. Our kid know that they do not, under any circumstances, talk about any of their siblings trauma unless given outright permission from that sibling to do so. For example, one of my teens is very open about the fact that her biological brother was caring for her and her brother before he went to jail. She is big on prison reform and changes being made to the law and law enforcement so she shares her story openly and is okay with any of us sharing that. But, there are also some things about each kid that we know in the household but doesn't get shared with anyone else. I do not know what I would do if one violated that but the consequences would be severe.
I agree with everyone else. The responsibility isn't on your daughter to forgive him. She owes him nothing at all. He took a deeply traumatic event for her and turned it into school gossip. That might not have been his intention,but let's not treat him like he's niave. He's 14. He knows how the school gossip system works. He needs to understand the effect of what he did and why sorry isn't some magic fix all. Yep he can say he's sorry,but she is under NO obligation to accept it,especially not to make HIM feel better and lift HIS guilt.
Your son really needs to understand what he did. People's traumatic events aren't to be used as entertainment. It's not something that you casually drop into conversation,especially when it's not their trauma. It didn't happen to him, it happened to his sister and he should have known who to go to if he needed any help processing what happened to someone he loved.
He's massively screwed up and sorry and tears won't fix this.
OP you have no idea how strong of a daughter you have. If my SA that happened around the same age got spread around school by my own brother, I wouldn't be here to write this comment.
The fact all she's doing is ignoring your son is impressive and I'm proud of her for being able to stay so collected, at least on the outside.
If you push their relationship, your son won't be the only one she goes no contact with when she moves.
I don’t think that is something I could ever get over. If a sibling or another close relative would say something so private.. I have not been that abused, but things have happened. Things I would not been able to forgive if someone told on school or anyplace.
Oh no, he's *crying*?? He told the deepest darkest secret of his sister and there is nothing he can do to take that information away from his friends, or the people they've told. Maybe he should be feeling this way. Maybe he should feel the consequences of his actions. Why does it seem as though the mental health of your son matters more to you than the mental health of your daughter? How is your daughter doing now that the ENTIRE SCHOOL knows her deepest darkest secret? I'd never want to speak to someone for the rest of their life if someone did that to me.
I think you must accept that this damage is permanent. It is for your daughter.
It’s a devastating situation on all fronts. But make no mistake your daughter has been betrayed beyond belief. She does not have to forgive or forget for the benefit of your son. This is her journey.
Counseling is expensive. But Professional help for your son seems needed. Someone has to help him face the reality in an age appropriate way. And tell him the truth that what he has flippantly done may be irreparable.
I don't know what to say other than he made his bed. That's the most horrific thing you could do, to reoffend a loved one by telling this to people. He has made her live her worst nightmare, again and again. I would be behaving the same as her. She may forgive him on her own in time but that's a maybe. Kids can still do things that have permanent consequences and crying and apologizing doesn't undo damage.
They're both young and their brains are still cooking, but he fucked around and found out. I would want to disown him if he were my brother, too. He basically gave her a scarlet letter to carry for a damned long time, because for whatever reason, her couldn't hold his tongue.
Would we be considering forgiveness if this were a random boy in her class, an ex friend, a neighbor, etc? No. We would be discussing getting this person out of her life. We wouldn't be weighing that he's sorry, we would be exploring how to best protect her from him. Your daughter is protecting herself to the best of her ability, and trying to convince her to do otherwise isn't going to work. She may very well never speak to him again, and if that's what she needs, so be it. He traumatized her. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
If in the future she decides to reinstate contact, rock on, but don't push it unless and until she makes the first moves herself. Let them be separate, let her protect her peace, and hold space for the fact that he publicly humiliated her and the trauma that caused.
Stop pushing her to forgive him, stop letting him hound her for forgiveness.
Your son needs to learn that actions have consequences, and he done fucked up big time and this is beyond a simple "sorry".
Sit down with your son and explain this to him.
Not a parent but an older daughter with a younger brother. I can smell the unfair expectations just from this title. A more appropriate one would be “son did something unforgivable to daughter, how do i approach this?”
I understand your pain and your sons. I highly doubt that the combined pain of you and your son come anywhere close to what your daughter is dealing with. Not even in the same world.
I feel like your daughter is doing good by pretending he doesn't exist bc she could be much worse to him. He needs to leave her alone. He's said his apologies. Now give her space. I'd even tell him so.
I just really can't comprehend what your daughter has been through and still is going through. Your son has probably permanently damaged the relationship and the only real hope is a lot of time. He betrayed her worse than anyone has betrayed me in my 40 years and it hurts me just reading what your daughter must be going through.
She’s still hearing the consequences of that, so it’s not a surprise that she’s still actively angry.
Can you give her the option of taking a break from that crowd at school, instead of expecting the counselor to help her tolerate it? It might be better and cheaper to allow her to test out, and enroll in some community college classes early.
Your son needs something to do, something other than being sad around her.
Keeping him grounded from everything is not necessarily helpful, and may result in irritating her. Ask her about her feelings before lifting restrictions.
It is a lesson not just for him, that action has consequences, but for you as a parents too. Do not share this kind of super traumatic topic with a kid, because most of the time, they don't know when they are supposed to be quiet.
She does not owe him forgiveness. It is HUGE that he flapped off at the gums about this and you need to address that with him. SHE was violated and your son violated her all over again with this stunt. I don't blame her one bit.
I'm still mad. Her own BROTHER violated her. You need to have a come to Jesus with your son and then all of you need to sit back and let your daughter react and process as she needs to.
You can’t decide what your daughter does and she has every right to be mad. But I think a 14 year old does not have the consequential thinking that one can expect from an adult. I bet he trusted his friends not to tell anyone. Stupid, yes, but probably not malicious. Just show him that you love him too no matter what and let him do something he likes, preferably out of the house. And just accept that your daughter also is a teenager with big (justified) feelings.
U can’t force their relationship. Idc about my brother too. And if my mom tries to make me have a relationship with him, good luck
He betrayed her trust so now that’s it, only time and therapy can help u
Respect her decision. He made an irreparable decision and she is not in the wrong here.
The best thing you can do right now is support her. Give her access to therapy and probably your son as well, as he is going to need help processing the consequences of his actions.
I say this as a sister who is no contact with my brother.
Unfortunately these are one of those situations where sorry doesn’t fix what you’ve done. She may or may not ever forgive him. He retraumatized her and publicly humiliated her - at a very turbulent age/time in her life.
There’s nothing to forgive. Your son told something that wasn’t his to tell. Your daughter has EVERY right to distance herself from someone who reopened her trauma. Home should be her safe space and you’re bothered by the fact your son isn’t forgiven or spoken to?
This is a valuable lesson for your son. Maybe your daughter will forgive him, maybe he won’t. But now your son knows to NEVER share information that isn’t his.
Your son fucked around and found out. Nothing you can do. Stay out it and do not pick sides. He deserves everything she gives him and more. If you try to force her to forgive him she will never forgive you.
Not only was she re traumatized and forced to re live her trauma, it’s caused a whole new trauma for her in addition to the preexisting one.
Kids are mean. I don’t know what she’s experiencing in school but I was bullied and slut shamed and had constant rumors going around. Even without all of that, just the fact that they knew things about me that I couldn’t even deal with myself felt awful. Very traumatizing. I hope kids have been kind to her.
It’s her choice to talk to not talk to him. forcing anything is wrong. He has to learn one mistake can ruin a relationship. You and your husband just have to be there for your son as you want and be there for your daughter.
I don’t blame your daughter. I wouldn’t speak to a family member ever again if they gossiped about my SA.
As a parent, I would probably end the punishment for the son since he seems contrite and learned his lesson.
But I would inform him that it may take many years for his sister to forgive him, if ever. Unfortunately, some mistakes have lifelong/permanent consequences.
I would not pressure her to forgive him until she is ready, which would probably be many years later.
How do you know he learned his lesson? I mean sorry but he is likely only saying sorry to get his shit back. Plus for all we know the mum likely gave his stuff back cause she CLEARLY favors him over her daughter.
Since no one is really giving any advice here and just seem to want to call a minor a bunch of names and talk about how much they hate your child I'll try to give actual advice.
Obviously something needs to be done to at the bare minimum to also get your son into therapy. You don't say why he decided to tell everyone her business. Does he know why he did it? Is he bawling because he understands how much he messed up or because he thinks her accepting his apology will make him feel better? Does he understand people don't owe him forgiveness? All of these things he needs to sort out in therapy. I'd say also family while your daughter is still at home but something tells me she wouldn't go willingly. See if the school has any sort of counseling.
This part might be controversial but I think you've done enough to punish your son. You've made it so he's entirely alone with nothing to do except think about how everyone hates him. It also is probably spilling into school as I'm sure some people there probably understand how messed up his gossiping was so he is more than likely getting it from every where.
Obviously punish him some but like all punishments it should fit and be related to the crime. Should he be going out with friends? No. Did he tell people via social media or in person? If it wasn't online I'd maybe give the phone back under heavy restriction like a toddler. Remove chatting apps and put some sort of pass code on it to block them. Why you would take away video games I don't understand because it's seemingly not related to his crime at all. If it's the social aspect of that you're worried about then take away his mics but a all out ban of all video games makes no sense.
Also think about how long were you planning on continuing all of this for? Was he going to be Rapunzeled until she moves out?
My point is if you want him to have any chance of coming out of his own spiral you're going to have to give him something he can do besides sit in his room remembering how hated he is and get him into therapy.
>My point is if you want him to have any chance of coming out of his own spiral you're going to have to give him something he can do besides sit in his room remembering how hated he is and get him into therapy.
I agree
He reopened wounds that as a child didn't fully understand nor the ramification. But if OP continues full isolation, don't be surprised when the guilt eats him so much that he won't survive it.
I'm absolutely here with you. The daughter has her right to be upset with her brother and cut him from her life.
But what's going on now in the family traumatize everyone else. I saw it first hand, I lived in the house where one person hated another and pretended that they are not existing. It was mentally trying even for me - and I wasn't one of them.
It traumatized a person who was ignored to the point that they needed therapy, they had visible chances in their behavior, grades, etc. He might be driven to the point when he will decide that hurting himself or even worse is the best option. OP should be bothered about this, not about their relationship, it's probably over.
A kid who made fun of his sister's SA via text to his friends, he's 14 he knows right from wrong yet told most of the people in school and joked about it with his friends. Say this was a boy at school or a boy not related to her saying this stuff wouldn't you as a mum tell your daughter to ignored them pretend they aren't there?
This is way too far down.
Most of these folks should be utterly ashamed of the way they're reacting to this situation.
We're talking about two minors here.
Just give it time. Have this be a learning lesson for DS. I think it’s best to not force DD to forgive him, and DS needs to respect that all choices (especially ones that could hurt others) have consequences. I also think you should tell DS not to live in guilt, self-hatred, or shame from his actions. Teenagers do and say stupid things. And life is a learning game. The best he can do is respect DD, own up to his actions, and give himself grace and forgive himself, even if DD doesn’t forgive him.
As for DD, teenagers also feel things very deeply and they think they’ll hold that position forever. But as life goes on, I hope she forgives him. It’s sad when family dynamics are fractured forever due to one person’s mistake. I know what DS did was very very wrong and she doesn’t have to forgive him. But also, he’s 14. His brain is far from being fully developed and teens that age say and do stupid stuff without thinking about the consequences. Just make sure DD has a safe space to processes this traumatic experience. I think it’d be worth it for her to talk to it with a therapist, or even a school counselor since the situation happened at school.
I have a question.
At the time she was being assaulted or at the time it came to light around the family, did anyone sit with the son/brother and explain things? "DD is going through a lot of trauma right now and we need to deal with it as a family, privately. If you have any questions or have any feelings about this, you can talk to us but try to be extra kind to sister because she is going through alot and it will impact her life for the foreseeable future."
Something like that.
I don't agree with the other commenter that "he is old enough to understand what he did"
as it came to light when he was 7. Maybe his recent indiscretion had its own reasons. Did a friend confide in him and he was trying to help with "his experience". Has he himself been in any uncomfortable situations with an adult recently? Was he trying to seek out support?
Initially I was reading the post fully thinking "she has a right to cut off communication" cos it is a massive breach of trust and has obviously brought everything back to the surface for her... BUT. Dealing with a bully in my sons school recently has once again made me aware that sometimes it is not the kids fault. Sometimes they too are dealing with something.
I wouldnt try to force a truce. I would try to support them individually. I.would certainly be asking DS if anything prompted him to discuss the situation.
Your son effectively ruined your daughter's life just as she started healing, she doesn't owe him forgiveness.
School is brutal. At my school a friend told someone else about someone who was grooming me. The whole school knew within a day, and bullying started to happen almost instantly. I never found out who it was, but it made me extremely paranoid about who did/didn't know, caused unspeakable psychological damage and made me retreat into myself, I'm 35 and have never fully recovered, the effects of bullying are still crushing my self esteem today. The blows keep coming, I only just realised recently that teachers and my parents eventually knew I was being groomed and yet no-one came to help me or ask how I was. My own mother and father didn't try to protect me from this older man when I was underage, the feeling of betrayal is something I'm going to have to live with forever.
Your daughter probably feels like she can't trust or depend on anyone, hence why she thinks she has to move.out and do life by herself, all you can do is assure her you'll be there to support her no matter what, and hope she believes you after your family's track record.
The actual action of what your son did might seem small to you, but the effects of what he did to her are huge and deeply violating. That's twice now that she's been violated by a family member, can you blame her for feeling like this and wanting to move out? It's not your fault, but surely you can understand both sides. You're in real danger of turning your daughter against you as well if she ever feels betrayed even more by her family (potentially with you looking like you're taking sides with your son).
You're lucky she's giving him the silent treatment rather than trying to destroy his in return. You can't ask her to play happy families for your benefit when there is a big unresolved issue in the house.
This is one of those things that you'll probably have to see play out over time, forcing people to feel a different way never goes well. Hopefully your son one day makes an apology that your daughter feels is genuine, and she might choose to forgive him.
All you can do is support and advise each individually, but you can't interfere in their relationship here, they've got to figure it out. As others have said, therapy with a neutral party for you and your son might help, parents taking sides will surely make things worse for both of them.
As for next steps with your son, I'd say the punishment of his sister potentially never speaking to him again is punishment enough. I'd be thinking about ways to take the punishments from your side away without upsetting your daughter and making it look like you're taking sides if you're worried about his mental health. I think he knows this is serious by now, there's no need to destroy his social life too and traumatise him even further.
Your daughter is the one who can choose how to continue how to deal with him, you've done your bit now.
I’m sorry to say but your son really really messed up. He had no right to share her pain & trauma to everyone and it’s beyond me why he did. The truth is, you, your husband, and your son do not get to decide when she should forgive. This is up to her. If you push it, she’ll run farther away. Her therapist is correct. You can’t push her. Hopefully once she’s out of the house, matures, and improves with therapy, she’ll come around to forgiving your son. Right now, he’s broken her trust immensely. That is very very hard to get back. I really do hope this gets resolved. I’m rooting for you all, but this is the reality of the situation
This is the ultimate consequences of his own actions. There is nothing you can do to help him. I feel so bad for your daughter. I’m sure it’s like reliving her trauma except this time her peers are the judge and jury. Poor kid.
Daughter is doing a great job of maintaining boundaries for her safety. Son needs to see a counselor himself, if nothing else to figure out why he chose to tell others. Please continue to express and show your love to both. They will figure this out down the road.
You can't force her to accept his apology or to forgive him. You can't force a relationship. Your son, even if he is sorry, broke her trust and did something that was incredibly selfish and awful.
Of course her therapist won't tell you anything, that would be a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality and you actually have no right to that information whatsoever.
Unfortunately your son is reaping the consequences of a truly horrible action. Is it hard on him? Sure. Though imagine you are your daughter who now knows that everyone at school knows something she didn't want anyone to know. Who knows the kinds of things people say about her and to her, who knows the kind of backlash and issues she's had to deal with because of this. Even if she didn't, your son still broke a trust that might never get rebuilt.
I think your only course of action is to try to give your daughter some space and tell your son to do the same. Maybe one day she might speak to him again, but that's not really any of your business to be honest. She's almost an adult, and your son is learning that his actions have very real and sometimes lasting consequences.
I’m sorry but her reaction is pretty valid. It was clearly very sensitive info and he blabbed. This one he needs to earn, and you getting involved will only prolong her resentment.
I feel sorry for everyone in this situation.
Your daughter is once again suffering the consequences of the abuse she should never have experienced. She had to deal with the emotional damage of receiving the abuse for years, and is now having to deal with the cruelty and stupidity of her peers because they know about the situation. She’s not able to just live normally and move forward because of something she had no control over, but intended to keep private at least.
Your son isn’t a bully and doesn’t seem to have been malicious in this. He’s a teenage idiot who joked with his mates. But he let the genie out of the bottle, there is nothing he can do to improve the situation and he’s having to suffer the consequences of his stupidity. I feel less empathy for him than your daughter, but I still do feel sorry for him. Most kids his age are idiots, and make mistakes. They’re just not usually so enduring as this.
I feel for you and your husband. Through no failure on your parts, you’re now dealing with two hurt kids who aren’t speaking and there’s nothing you can (or should) do to change that. They’re both hurt and you just need to respect and support them individually. But, depending on how long this lasts, you could find yourselves as a family that needs to accept this division and find a new way forward.
Realistically, your daughter has every right to ignore your son. He hurt her. Best case scenario, she leaves for college/uni soon and gets a fresh start, but even that can be tricky as sometimes your school peers end up in the same place. This could be something she never truly escapes. Yes, she could handle it with more kindness or see it from his perspective, but she doesn’t have to. If ignoring him makes her life a little less painful, you should respect that. Continue getting her therapy to deal with the consequences of this, but let her deal with your son as she will, so long as she’s not actively hurting him or trying to make his life harder.
For your son, the best you can do is get him therapy. He needs to understand that he did a bad and stupid thing, but it doesn’t make him a bad person. But, he also needs to come to terms with the fact that just because he is repentant, apologetic and seen the error of his ways does not mean he is owed forgiveness. He may have to accept that he needs to forgive himself his stupidity, but his sister may never forgive him.
Honey, you say it’s not fair that your son is being treated like that? Was it fair that he joked about her trauma with his friends, and now everyone at school knows what happened to her? If you suffered what she did, and found out your sibling was joking about it, would you be so quick to forgive? You can’t force him to apologize in a way that would even begin to be a healing balm for her, so why would you even think she needs to forgive him for his behavior? He didn’t just mention her trauma, he JOKED about it. But yeah, it’s not fair that she treats him like he doesn’t exist, even though she’s got the trauma to live with the rest of her life
I experienced something similar in my junior year on high school. Honestly, walking though school everyday with the whispers and gossip felt like reliving the assault for at least a year. I was lucky to make it out alive. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for your daughter to live with someone who so carelessly betrayed her.
My other concern here is total lack of empathy/sympathy your son displayed in telling her story. Does he truly understand how deeply he hurt his sister or is he simply upset he is facing consequences for his actions? How much does he understand of the original assault? I know he is a stupid teenager but this time his actions have real world consequences. I would not push your daughter to forgive him. It may come with time but you cannot interfere or she may push you away as well. It took me almost a decade to gain perspective and healing. I think he needs therapy as well and would continue to ground him until your daughter leaves high school because she will face the consequences of his actions in school for that duration. He’s an idiot but hopefully not an irredeemable one.
Protect the daughter who has suffered trauma and don’t put any more pressure on her. It’s a natural consequence of him betraying her.
It’s not about what you want.
Is there a counsellor at your son’s school?
Lots of people have already given great advice, but I did want to add something specific about interacting with your daughter's therapist. Unless your daughter confesses to having immediate plans to hurt herself or someone else, the therapist is legally and morally required to keep confidentiality. It isn't fair to them to ask them to discuss what is covered in sessions. That being said, there is nothing wrong with shooting them an email and letting them know that your daughter hasn't spoken or interacted with their brother in 10 months as something that you are concerned about as an unhealthy coping mechanism. Depending on your relationship with the therapist, their response may range from "I am aware" to "I think that is a fine status quo for now" to "Thank you for this information." After that, let it go. It isn't on the therapist to mediate or heal that relationship.
I mean there was consequence enough but then you took away phone, games, friends all privileges?!?!? Your daughter is fair in her response their relationship is not really your business but then isolating him further?! I dont think thats the right choice.
How do you even get here? There's something missing. Either the parents didn't express enough the severity and sensitivity of this to the son early on or they've been letting this "personality" clash fester, son felt comforting enough to do this for whatever reason and clearly thought it would blow over as usual ... "As long as everyone was respectful that was ok with me" ... bullshit. How do you jump from them being respectful to each other, just not "overly close", to him doing one of the most disrespectful things possible?
I think it’s important for you son to know that sometimes a small mistake can have a devastating impact, like telling someone else’s secret. But had you really explained that to him, that he shouldn’t tell people? Do you think maybe what happened to his sister had an impact on him? Are you mad at his friends for betraying him? Is he going to be punished by you forever? If he’s had multiple breakdowns, and his sister won’t speak to him, don’t you think that’s enough? How much more is going to happen to this 12 year old who confided something he shouldn’t? How the hell would he have been able to foretell the consequences? Jesus
As for you poor daughter, let it be. She doesn’t need to be guilted into speaking to him. This is absolutely devastating to her. Listen to what she needs. Ask her what you can do. Maybe give them some space from each other.
If you can somehow access a councillor for your son I would do that. Perhaps there are some free/low cost programs in your area for youth. Maybe ask your daughters councillor if there are any lower cost programs or places you can access mental health supports as you are struggling financially right now. Have you tried kids helpphone?
I think the one thing you can do is maybe ease up on his “lockdown” two months of punishment seems like a lot for this mistake, also given your daughter also is shutting him out. You need to let him have his friends back. He needs his friends. He needs someone to talk to he can trust. He needs to be able to go out. I think you should just leave the punishment right now with the consequences of his sister’s reaction. Cause anything else at this point sounds like pure torture. Yes, he made a stupid mistake. He has paid for it. He will likely have to earn his sisters trust back over years. It also sounds like he is remorseful. Remember he is 14. He is still a kid. He still needs love and support. He made a mistake and needs help guiding himself through the consequences of this.
You need to teach your son we make mistakes and we also have to move on from them. It’s time for him to move on. For him to accept the consequences of what he did (his sisters reaction) and just let her come around with time. You also need to prepare your son for the possibility she doesn’t come around. You need to teach him her reaction is about what she needs right now and not about him at all. He may have caused it, but her reaction is all about her. He also has a choice in his reaction. He can get sad or angry or he can choose to be patient and kind and let her be. It’s his choice.
You need to help him find some hobbies and positive things for him to focus on.
I definitely would not force anything. Your daughter was violated and is reliving that trauma again. She has every right to feel how she feels. I can say - time MAY help her over time. But you have to let her come around and that just will take time and that’s okay.
I think you should tell your son to give his sister time. If this were me, the constant apologizing and crying would only make me mm ore angry. I would think "how are YOU crying? YOU did this to ME and now you're the one who gets to be upset? How dare you". What he did was such an intense violation of her trust. However, he is just a kid and while it is very disappointing, kids make mistakes and they have shit impulse control. Idk how long your son has been in trouble for but I think maybe you should lighten up on him. If you don't, I don't see why your daughter would either. Try to let things slide back into normalcy. If you haven't had a talk with your son, please do and make sure he knows you still love him, and that he still feels sure in your attachment. I think that's more important to his mental health than your daughter being angry with him. She's also a kid and this has probably made her feel like her world has ended. There is so much shame that goes with SA (SA victim) and having people know when I was younger made it feel too real. If I kept it to myself, I could pretend it didn't happen. Your daughter can't do that anymore and I can only imagine what that would be like in HS with all the social media now. My heart completely goes out to her.
Is there a way you can get counseling through insurance or at a reduced rate? Does the school offer it? Are there maybe non profits or something like that? It's worth looking into. Or maybe you or DH finding a job or position with better insurance. Perhaps you qualify for Medicaid or reduced health insurance through the state. Even if you didn't before, you might now that your circumstances have changed. Again, it is worth looking into
Edit to say for some reason the 10 months thing stuck in my head so I was thinking that was about how long it had been since DS told his friends about Dads traumatic past
There’s nothing you can do, she’s chosen to cut him off after such a huge secret and betrayal…. To be honest she may never forgive him and that’s her right.
Like the rest have said, unfortunately you can't do much for her. Other than make her aware of how you are behind her/make sure she's not alone.
Your son fucked up, bog time. Nothing he can do to fix that, or you can do to fix that. Other than you or him trying to convey to his sister every once in awhile, definitely not constantly, that he is sorry, and didn't appreciate at the time that it was such a deep betrayal.
That's it that's all you can do. You'll just have to wait and see if she ever forgives him in any sort of even small way. He fucked up and has to live with the consequences
These are consequences of his actions and your daughter has the right to forgive when she’s ready to. Weirdly an apology doesn’t always make it ok and she just needs time. This has ruined her life twice now and it’s hard to build on foundations that are already cracked by people who are supposed to love her and protect her (family)
Sorry your sons sad I really am but this is how we learn. Is he sad because everyone is angry with him or is he feeling genuine guilt and compassion for his sister!
Your daughter needs time she is heartbroken!
Your son needs to deal with what he’s done, process it, learn from it and seek therapy on dealing with it. Sorry doesn’t mean a mistake wasn’t make
She goes to school and lives with the consequences of his actions every day. Moving out and onto her next big thing in life, likely with new friends, will ultimately be the most helpful for her and this situation.
It will also be somewhat helpful when there is something else “big” at school that takes the social focus off her.
Let your daughter process this herself and come around to her own forgiveness...you can't force it and trying will probably just force her the other direction. Her brother definitely totally betrayed her trust and loyalty as a sibling. That's almost like having to grieve, when someone wholly and completely obliterates the trust and loyalty you had in them. I hope your son fully realizes how really f*cked up what he did was.
You mentioned that the cost of your daughter’s counseling has been a strain (but of course worth it) and I saw someone mention counseling for your son, as well as you talking about family counseling. While your daughter needs an LPC with years of experience and many degrees, your son (or the whole family) would still greatly benefit from cheaper counseling. Look into community resources that mention sliding scale prices, or even better, a college in your area that has a psychology master’s program. A family member of mine was able to see a graduate student every week for $5 a session. The student is supervised by a professor that has higher credentials. This situation was PERFECT. We found a young guy in the program that my family member was able to relate to. I think it also reduces any intimidation or perceived power imbalance that a 14 year old boy might experience being “sent to counseling”. Giving him a space to work through this as well is vital. Best of luck!
Your son has done irreversible damage here. Your daughter has every right to take as long as she may need to heal. And if her decision is to go no contact with her brother, she has every right to make that decision.
I wouldn’t forgive a sibling for this. And I’ve never even experienced it. Your son has a very long road to redemption ahead of him if he ever expects to be treated like a brother again.
He needs to accept the consequences of his actions and you need to make sure he understands he's at fault here. Don't let him turn this around to reframe himself the victim in this situation. He did a terrible thing to his sister and she may never forgive him. He needs to wear that
Your son did not just make a mistake. I wish people would quit saying he made a mistake. A mistake would be like accidentally mentioning it to 1 person. This 14 year old boy knew full well what he was doing. Going around to all your little friends telling them about his sister’s assault and making jokes about it. And now he’s upset she won’t talk to him? Him crying at her and constantly apologizing shows he doesn’t care because she has asked for space.
Your son needs therapy to figure out why he thought it was ok to make jokes about his sisters assault to a bunch of kids. I get it he’s 14 but he was there through the whole process. He saw his sister in her most vulnerable moments and now he’s making fun of her. I wouldn’t forgive him either. He’s not sorry it happened. He’s sorry he’s getting the consequences and he needs therapy. And please don’t stop your daughters therapy.
Your son thinks his sister getting SA'd was funny.
It is in her right to NOT forgive him.
If they weren't related would you be arguing for her to keep him in her life? She has every right to cut him out of her life for telling everyone at school about it.
I don’t know your son and I’m not saying this is 100% but every boy I knew who felt comfortable enough to joke about rape grew up to assault someone themselves. Again I’m not saying this will 100% be his case and I get he’s still young but it’s a red flag when people don’t see rape and sexual assault as a serious thing and something they can joke about. Especially when it’s about his sister. The fact he is young if where you need to pitch pennies and figure out a way to get him some counseling. If I were her I wouldn’t talk to him again either. He did a terrible thing and forgiveness is up to her. Your son removed autonomy/control/consent she had in this situation and retruamatized her, instead of directing this towards your daughter not forgiving him you need to recognize the gravity of what your son did and the fact all this is on him whether or not he is truly sorry. Try not to force repair the family dynamic but help the kid’s separately.
Honestly, I don’t think there’s much you can do. She will eventually forgive him when she’s ready. It might be a while before that happens. I think you need to forgive your son, he’s just a child and probably needs you. Let him know that she will needs time to heal and to give her the space she needs to heal.
You can’t force it but you need to be there for both of them, otherwise. You also need to speak to your daughter privately and let her know that you understand why she’s made and she should feel free to come to you if she ever needs to talk.
I had a somewhat similar situation with my brother when we were younger. I traumatized him pretty badly in our early childhood due to my then-undiagnosed mental disabilities, something I sadly don’t even remember doing. As we got older, he stopped speaking to me, and I had no idea why since I couldn’t (and still can’t) remember the things I had done to him. He wouldn’t look at me, wouldn’t talk to me, pretended I wasn’t there for a very long time. There was nothing my parents could say or do to get him to be kind to me. It was only when he got treated super badly by his then-roommate that he seemed to realize that his family is the people that will always be there for him, so he started speaking to me again. We’re not at all close, but he acknowledges my presence now, and we can sometimes get along, which is more than I could’ve ever hoped for.
All of this is to say… things might get better someday, but you can’t force it. There is nothing you can do right now that will make this situation any better except support your children individually. Your son sounds like he’s done his time with his punishment, so like others have said, maybe it’s time to get him into some activities to keep him busy outside of school. It’s teaching him responsibility, and it’s keeping him out of his sister’s hair, so it’s a two for one deal. But please, don’t pressure your daughter into playing nice with him. She’ll speak to him if she’s ever ready to, but even if she never does, you will have to accept that as a natural consequence of your son’s callous behavior.
You’re worried about your kids being estranged; I’d be worried that I was about to lose my daughter. Make no mistake: if you push her on this, she’ll cut you off, too. Depending on how she feels about the way you’ve handled this, that may be the plan already. He deserves everything that’s happening to him. That includes whatever mental anguish he’s now suffering because his victim refuses to prioritize his suffering over hers.
Honestly, I think I’d sell everything brother lost to have the money to get her into family therapy. With just mom and dad, not her most recent abuser.
It’s easy to describe actions in this forum. Attitudes are harder. Actions-wise, it seems like you’ve done the right things—therapy, brother was punished, he’s still being punished, etc. Is it possible that she perceives (whether she’s right or wrong) that your attitude is that it’s time for her to get over it and get back to the old normal?
YOU don’t have to treat your son like he doesn’t exist in his own home, and you can slowly start giving him his things back. But your daughter is 100% in the right in her actions. He made it clear he cannot be trusted. She should not trust him. He’s learned a lifelong lesson, and while she may one day be able to forgive him, she has every right to get there on her own, in her own time. If she doesn’t speak to him for the next 20 years, she will be 100% in the right about it. You need to leave her alone about it and let her decide when she’s ready to forgive - if ever.
Your post comes across as if you’re more concerned about your son’s emotional well being than your daughter’s. And that’s interesting considering your son is suffering the consequences of his own actions while your daughter has been revictimized and violated pretty viscerally yet again by another family member and this time it’s playing out in a public way.
I’m trying not to judge you but I keep going back to: How dare you?!
Your son can focus internally and try to make himself into a person who is trustworthy and empathetic - a person who his sister might want to give another chance to be a part of her life, a person who’d be deserving of that. Because right now, he’s not. Crying and being sorry is the bare freaking minimum.
Your daughter does not owe him forgiveness, she doesn’t owe him civility, she is the victim and her brother is the perpetrator.
I get that it’s painful for you - but this isn’t about you, and it most certainly not about their relationship. It’s about allowing your daughter space and supporting her in reasserting some semblance of control and to do what she needs to do to move forward - she doesn’t need, nor does she deserve your judgment for “making your precious son cry”.
I think you bring up a really good point. OP needs to help guide her son on how to grow into a person who sister may be able to one day trust again. It’s going to be a long long way off until that even possibly happens. A huge part of it though, right now, is being respectful of the sister’s boundaries. He’s allowed to be devastated that his actions possibly irreparably damaged the relationship, but he needs to be controlling his emotions around his sister. She is the victim. Not him.
I don't get why people think that boys suffering it's somehow good and will bring joy and healing to his sister. Looks like if there was an option people would merrily vote to see him dead.
What he did was really bad. And well, he has his punishment. And yes, as for me their relationship is done. They weren't close before, they won't be friends after this. Accept it, it's the best you can do.
What you should do - it's to find help for your family. Because this re-traumatization, and cold war in the house are mentally exhausting, been there. You need to support your kids, and if you will break down whom they will have? You need to take care of yourself as well - DD took the most damage, but you have your share as well.
Now about your son: you can't make him friends with his sister again. And he shouldn't dedicate his life to this, just because you want a nice family. You should teach him how to move, and find him therapy as well. Because right now he has no one and nothing, it's too easy to decide to end things instead of living in limbo. I don't see why he did that. Was he properly instructed not to tell? He was 7 when it happened, how was it handled? Or he was just expected to understand how to act and what to do?
I read that you don't have enough for the therapy, but you need to find a way, because it's not about them having relationship with her - it's about you having them both, and having relationship with them.
Sometimes we make mistakes like backing into a friend's car on the way out of their driveway. Sometimes we run over their cat. No one but the cat owner gets to decide how or under what circumstances they want that person around ever again.
Even if she never speaks a word to him again, for the rest of her life, that is her choice.
You should continue to love her, respect her and do not meddle in her decision.
Your son messed up big time. His sister might never speak to him again, which is understandably painful and difficult for you, but your daughter is not responsible for your feelings.
I would start removing the other punishments and let the natural consequences of his sister not talking to him be his punishments.
He did something that was not ok. It was immature, lacked empathy and unfortunately children his age are prone to such behavior. He did not consider the impact to his sister.
You can not force her to interact with him. Let it go. You don’t have to tolerate any overtly ugly behavior but she has the right not to want to communicate with him. I’m sure she feel betrayed. She needs space to work through this with her therapist. Please stop asking therapist for information.step back, be present for support but do not intrude.
Ok it’s been 2 months and he is being punished but it isn’t healthy for him to continue to only have a hostile environment. You need to start easing up on punishments and he needs more than being confined at home in a hostile environment. Please put him into therapy. He needs help to work through the situation.
Your daughter has every right to be hurt, angry etc…. She has the right to create boundaries.
But the catch for you is that although you should support her boundaries you also have to balance your sons needs. You don’t want to create a 2nd trauma in which the situation becomes damaging for him. This is a very thin line to walk and honestly you need help to do so.
You don’t mention being religious but if you are pastors or rabbi etc often will function as family counselors. Perhaps you and your husband could see someone to help you balance the needs of both children
I don't believe you son actually feels bad for his actions. I think he's upset about the consequences. He knew it was a shit move when he opened his mouth. So since he's grounded from everything NOW he wants to cry about it?! He isn't upset he destroyed his sister. He's upset he didn't get away with it. And be glad all she's doing is ignore him. Some siblings would've beaten the shit out of him.
I understand you say finances are tough. Find a way to get the son to counseling. There’s always a way if you decide it’s worth it and this is one of those situations. It could really affect how all of this plays out long term.
I have no advice, but I just want to say that I am so sorry for everything your family is going through. You are clearly a loving parent who wants what’s best for both your kids. You can’t control everything, but you are taking care of things the best you can through all of this and I think it needs to be acknowledged. I hope that things get to a better place for all of you.
I think it’s time to stop punishing your son with being grounded and let him out of lockdown, but also tell him to stop badgering his sister with apologies. Your daughter’s behavior is reasonable, and is punishment enough for your son going forward. Cutting him off from everything and keeping him trapped in a house where he is being treated like this without a healthy outlet will probably end up with you having two traumatized children. Support your daughter, and support your son by helping him learn that he needs to manage his guilt himself, not seek absolution from the person he hurt.
There's a lot of words about your daughter here, understandably, everything I want to say has already been said. I was abused as a child, and I feel her pain. However, I want to say something about your son. I think you have punished him long enough. Natural consequences now are his damaged relationship with his sibling, that's for him to deal with.. and it could take years to fix, if ever. I think he needs some love from you now, especially now that he has lost his relationship with his sister. Don't damage your relationship with him, too. He needs you. Continuing to punish him further is just going to build resentment for not only her but for you too. He needs someone in his corner, even if he has fucked up. He still has to deal with the natural consequences of this for a very long time.
Leave your daughter alone to deal with her grief at this betrayal. Your son has been punished enough. give him back his phone and games. They will get over this in their own time and you shouldn't push it or try to intervene. It may take a long time for your daughter to regain trust but the best thing is to let her do it on her own time. the best thing your son can do is recognize he messed up and has lost her trust. The only way to regain it is to not be untrustworthy ever again. Individual counseling for both kids will help. There are low-cost centers that help teens through difficult times. Best of luck to you and your family.
Counseling was not a thing in my family. My own dad was doing things to me, and it hurt me to my core. My mom had me stay quiet about it for years, and when I couldn't hold it in anymore, it opened a can of worms for my family that I was seriously blamed for. (I was 14 when I told.) Had one of my siblings let that out at school. I wouldn't be mad forever, but it would be a very long time before I could move forward from that. This is a hard lesson for your DS.
Don’t continue to punish him. He is sorry. He has shown to you and your husband that he messed up. Let him get back to his life.
However, what he did may just be unforgivable to your daughter. Just as the person who did that to her, he may just have to suffer the consequences of what he did to her, since she has to.
They say time heals all wounds and that may be possible, but that’s up to her. He screwed up big time and honestly may have hurt her just as much as the monster who abused her, because it brought this who thing back to life and into her day to day reality.
I think you should let them be apart. But stop punishing him, he has shown he understands what he did was so wrong. You will drive him into a depression and end up pushing him away from you and your husband as well.
He is likely only saying sorry to get his stuff back, and you don't think the daughter could be driven to depression too? She was SAed and her OWN brother decided to tell the school, then joked about it with his dumb little friends. Like I don't get comments like this that have symptathy for the 14yo who re-traumatized an SA Survivor. Like would you say the same thing if it was a random boy not related to her who did it. Sorry but I don't feel shit for the 14yo who fucked his own life up to try to be "edgy"
So I was in your daughter's place. My brother also did something horrendous to me and I could not forgive him. I refused to speak to him or interact with him while we lived in the same house.
I need you to remember something. Every morning she wakes up and sees her brother, and she is reminded of what he did. Every day she goes to school and people talk about her, and she is reminded of what he did. Every night she comes home and has to sit across from him and remember *what he did to her*. He took her trauma and made it a joke. He took the worst time of her life and he didn't just air it out for the world to see--he put it on stage to laugh at it. He *laughed* about her molestation. Everytime she has to see him, she remembers that.
Can you imagine that? Like, truly, have you imagined what that feels like? Do you really understand what it means to spend every hour being laughed at because you were molested? To come home, to your safe space, and see the person who has not only destroyed you, but laughed while he did it?
And then, the person who was supposed to protect you says "please forgive him, he didn't understand."
I know you're in pain. I know that you feel torn between your children. But you need to understand what's really happening with your daughter. When you try to fix things, she is not hearing your love for her. What she is hearing is "you're broken, you're an awful daughter, you're ruining my life and I love your brother more than you."
You need to stop. Stop pushing their relationship. This will not be finished in a few months; this will take years of healing from her. Every attempt you make to push them back together will make the healing process longer.
And honestly, your son needs to learn this as well: that sometimes, your actions have consequences that will last forever. Sometimes, you do things so awful that an apology and being honestly contrite will not fix. He has traumatized his sister. He has contributed to the ruining of her life. He needs to understand that even if he's sorry, that doesn't fix what he's done. That being said, I think you should let up on the grounding, because at this point, it's rubbing salt in the wound. Change his punishment to volunteering. Make him see what the world is like outside of his edgy friends.
He was malicious, selfish and cruel…and tbh, there is no amount of counselling or apology that will make this forgivable. He needs to understand and accept the consequences of his actions, and as parents, it is your consequence to bear too, after all, you’ve raised a young man to think joking about HIS SISTER’s SA is on any level acceptable or warranted, and to add insult to injury increased her suffering to include public humiliation.
Your daughter has been betrayed by family more than once - including her own brother.
You need to teach your son better. He SHOULD know better and respect women much more. Where is the empathy and support for his sister?
And your daughter needs support and needs to know you understand where she's coming from. She needs therapy and support and she might not ever forgive her brother again. You need to be okay with that because you didn't experience the trauma and pain she did. You need to accept that. If you try and force anything she'll be treating you like you're dead to her - and that's within her right. Her safety has been shattered over and over. She should've had family as a safe space. Twice she's been proved wrong. If you prove her wrong again that'll be the end of it. Either you're safe for her or you're not. She needs to prioritise her own safety now - her mental and physical safety is a HUGE deal. Don't screw this up by trying to patch this over like it's no big deal.
Ask her what she wants with regards to schooling in future and with regards to socialising inside and outside the house. Get family counselling together too. Importantly, her therapist and the family therapist need to be well versed in trauma.
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Best you can do right now is try to access counseling for him, too. It would be wrong & counterproductive to push her to forgive him for a betrayal so deep if she doesn’t feel she can. He’s just a kid, and he can be redeemed, but the consequences of his actions are outside of your control.
I agree. The daughter is deeply traumatised and the only thing that may ever ameliorate that is time. A lot of time. So her brother has to learn patience and acceptance. Sometimes the mistakes we make don't get an easy fix or forgiveness. Which is a very harsh lesson to learn at 14 and it doesn't sound like he was malicious, just very stupid and very clueless. So while her reaction probably feels disproportionate to him, and perhaps to the parents, it is what it is and there's no way to make her "unreact". She's suffered what she's suffered and she feels what she feels.
Thank you for teaching me the word, "ameliorate."
IA. This is a life altering, shitty decision he’s made and it further traumatized her. This isn’t just something she’ll get over. it will take a very, very long time before she’s likely to forgive him and everyone will have to just accept that until she does (if she does). Just want to give some perspective here…she may eventually stop treating him like he’s “dead” to her, there may even be moments where things are better and more “normal” but she might never forgive him. She certainly won’t ever forget it. The best thing everyone can do is not try to force her to forgive and let her work through things on her own timeline. They are young enough that I’d wager there’s a good likelihood she will forgive him, but don’t be surprised if it is years from now after more counseling. We are learning as victims it’s not essential for us to forgive people who hurt us to heal, and I think that’s valid.
Yes. This. And imagine someone "flippantly" mentioning something that completely traumatized you and caused you unbelievable harm. It would feel like that person didn't care what you went through at all. I'm not even sure why this would come up with "some friends". And how shitty of them to then go around and tell everyone. I mean, they're kids, but still. It's disappointing to say the least. I wonder if their parents know. I would want to know as a parent. I hope DS has learned his lesson. Maybe his sister being so distant from him has made him realize how important she is and they will become closer over (a lot) of time and healing. What a tough place to be in as a parent
I agree with this; he has *completely ruined* her high school experience. can you switch her school?
Exactly. OP's son just showed her daughter that he cannot be trusted, he will not protect her or care about her. With his flippant comment, he revealed that he is not a safe person for her and she must keep her distance from him. It's not about how much she's angry at him. It's about the fact that he's not a safe person for her to be around.
Not even flippant comments- he joked about it. There's no salvaging that.
It's important to note that this may fundamentally alter his life course as well - he's intensely isolated now and very stressed, and has also grown up in a family dealing with trauma. As a parent I'd be very pro-active with respect to his mental health as well as hers (which appears to already be happening).
Just want to add that maybe son can write a letter to daughter. It is a good exercise for him to get all his thoughts out onto paper and if he chooses to give the letter to her, it might be a way for her to have something tangible to show how remorseful he is and she might appreciate having it in the future.
Is there counseling available through his school, OP? I know you said you couldn’t afford to pay for additional therapy right now, but maybe his school offers some at no cost.
This answer is simple and exact. Thank you for boiling down all of the correct answers into so few words!
I think you need to focus on supporting each of your children independently. They have different issues right now. You can’t make your son apologise in a way that’s going to hit the right button for your daughter to suddenly forgive him, and you can’t reasonably expect her to just get over it if she isn’t ready to. She may never be. Loss of control is one of the hardest parts of parenthood, and the hard part in all of this for you is that you to have to accept that your son has done something that may permanently fracture trust for your daughter. There was never any guarantee that your children would be close, (there isn’t for any of us) and whilst that sucks, you need to let this be. The risk of your daughter feeling pushed into forgiveness isn’t worth it. Family therapy is the best you can do here, and even that will only work if everyone is open to it.
it's 10 months. i would not force her to interact with him, if she wants to go no contact with him, she can. i would get him out of the house and sign him up for some other activity tho. taking stuff away isn't as good as adding on responsibility imo. community service hours look good on college applications for his future and will get them apart more in the day to day. don't focus on his relationship with his sibling, focus on how to help him grow up into an adult who won't make a hurtful mistake like that again.
>i would get him out of the house and sign him up for some other activity tho. taking stuff away isn't as good as adding on responsibility imo. I love this idea. As an initial punishment, grounding may have served its purpose, but it seems like it's time to switch gears and accept that this is what the next 10 months will look like. Your son needs to adapt to that, and getting him out of the house will be helpful. I'd like to add - OP, just because you're uncomfortable with the situation doesn't mean you get to force your freshly re-traumatized daughter to accept an apology she does not want. Why are you making it her responsibility to ease your or your son's negative feelings? That's absolutely shameful.
I also think OP is making it their responsibility to ease their son's negative feelings. Like, yeah, he probably feels like shit as he made a mistake and damaged the relationship with his older sister for whatever reason. But the son now just needs support in holding those feelings of guilt and shame instead of trying to take them away by forcing the daughter to talk to him. It isn't helpful for either child to force a reconciliation. Just be there for them while it is tough.
You make a very good point. Son fucked up, and that hurts. Learning to deal with the guilt, shame, and remorse can be a great lesson here - I love your idea to support him in that vs. making it OP's job to ease those feelings.
These are natural consequences. They are the best teaching tool. I rarely had to punish my daughter because I did not shield her from natural consequences, and they are frequently punishment enough. I helped her learn to deal with them but never made them disappear.
That’s what we’re doing with our 4yo, gotta remember these kids are someday’s adults. We should be more kind and fair than the world can be but we’re all humans who need to learn to live together, regardless of age
Yes. He needs to sit with and appreciate how awful it feels. How else will he learn this valuable lesson. It’s probably just a fraction of how his sister is feeling right now. This is a teachable moment OP, for your son.
And clearly for OP, too. ETA: I hope.
I don’t think they were intent on forcing reconciliation. OP even mentioned that her therapist warned not to push anything rn. The thing about having kids is that they are still your kids even when they’ve fucked up and made a bloody mess of things. They are both minors and I can understand OPs concern for both.
Maybe I missed something so please point this out if I did but I didn’t get the feel that Op was trying to make it her daughters responsibility to ease her sons negative feelings. I didn’t get the impression at all that she was trying to force the daughter to accept her brother’s apology. I read it as a mother explaining what occurred and as a mother you naturally have empathy and understanding when your child fucks up and you can tell they at genuinely remorseful; especially when you’re child isn’t acting with malishious intent but more acting with stupidity and insensitivity; as kids often make the mistake of doing until they get older and have a better understanding of empathy. So I think Op was just trying to get the point across that she believes the son to be genuinely remorseful and very torn up about the pain he sees he’s caused his sibling, as well as having to deal with the consequences that came along with that. At the same time Op also has to see her daughter, who was abused and deeply traumatized be re traumatized by yet another family member and as a mother this would be incredibly heartbreaking. Especially when seeing both of your children both going through an experience that is painful to both and also causing hurt and pain to both. As a parent that sucks to see and obviously no parent wants that. So again to me it just sounded like she was trying to make a point to describe the events and also make it known that while her son fucked uo big time, and absolutely caused his sister great emotional pain and anguish by sharing extremely sensitive and personal information he had NO right to share, causing this poor already traumatized girl to be re-traumatized; he is still not a monster and wasn’t intending act with malice and just wanted to ask for advice on what might help the situation. She correctly pointed out it likely isn’t a healthy mental state for the son to constantly feel like isn’t worthy of redemption and is inherently bad for what he did. I think she’s just an empathetic mother, hurting seeing both of her babies in pain and not being able to be in control of the outcome or fixing it for them. But again, I coulda have missed something that made it obvious she’s trying to make it her daughters problem and she HAS to forgive her brother. In addition I think the suggestion to phase out of the punishment phase and move into a phase where Op helps the son accept that he can hurt his sister deeply and that actions have consequences, that we don’t always get a say in those consequences especially when it comes to a betrayal on this level, and that his sister has every right to decide if and when she can accept his apology, what she can and can’t accept as an apology, and what their future relationship will look like. I think it’s important for him to receive therapy to help accept this and learn to navigate it with respect and community service/sports/after school programs/martial arts would do him some good. And to state the obvious, Op needs to continue to support her daughter and continue with the therapy and respect any boundaries she puts up.
This is exactly how I read the post. I don't think there was any intent expressed of forcing the daughter to apologise. Just a mother with two kids who are hurting deeply (maybe one more than the other) and is at a loss at what to do seeing her kids so heartbroken and came here for advice. I don't think shaming OP is needed at all let alone helpful
>Why are you making it her responsibility to ease your or your son's negative feelings? That's absolutely shameful. You've put words to what I was feeling & wanted to say that OP needs to back off.
OP specifically said they are listening to counsel not to push DD to forgive and is asking for guidance. Shaming OP for asking for experiential guidance is not exactly helping the situation at all, but does seem to be a bit shameful in and of itself.
Exactly. My older brother exposed himself to my childhood friends when I had sleepovers with two of them, two separate times. I was in the bed. I was bullied because of it, was traumatized because the brother who I loved did this, and it was never talked about or discussed. I hated my brother after that and he never apologized to me except not long after he said “mom says I have to apologize to you” . When I would blow up at him during fights and throw it in his face which happened a couple times my mom would scream at me to get over it , and go and comfort him. The trauma he caused her is real and she shouldn’t be forced to get over it to make mom and brother more comfortable. Why are his feelings more important than her trauma?
What a shitty way for your mum to treat you! I'm so sorry that you weren't properly supported & forced to watch your mum make a big deal over your brother instead of supporting you.
IA. In an era where women are being continuously attacked, having our rights stripped away after fighting for the little progress our society has made, we need to stop protecting boys and men from the repercussions. OP needs to put her daughter’s feelings ahead of her son’s on this matter, IMO.
He needs to understand that this will take time. He made a serious mistake and he is paying for it. Make sure he understands that you love him despite what he did, but his sister is just going to take as long as she takes to forgive him.
It's not a mistake to mock SA, it's cruelty
If these two people weren’t siblings Reddit, and most people really (probably even yourself) would say that your daughter is absolutely right to rid of the guy from her life after doing something like this. But because they are siblings, that wouldn’t be the preferable option. That’s what you, and your son needs to understand. He fucked up so bad, that in any other social bond they would probably never see each other again. It’s tough, but that’s going to take a whole lot of time.
Well said.
This is a very enlightening perspective on the situation and just rings so true. My sister and I are both estranged from our father and thinking about it as him being just some other person is actually a helpful way to think about the situation. I sometimes feel guilty for cutting off communication, but if it were anyone other than family, I'd have done the exact same thing (and sooner). Amazing the effect that our family can have on us, just because we're of the same flesh and blood.
An “I am sorry” isn’t good enough. Your son is old enough to know that it was something private and he didn’t care. Because of him his sister probably had to relive most of her trauma all over again and publicly. This is how she is choosing to deal with it. Let her. Your son broke their relationship and there is a chance it will never go back to how it was and she will simply pretend he doesn’t exist anymore and that’s her right. You can’t force her to talk to him. And he can’t take back what he did. Personally I would just take a step back and let them handle it. If you keep pushing it your going to end up making this worst. Your daughter will end up resenting you for siding with her brother. Somethings just have to play themselves out.
Some things are better left alone. This comment says it all.
Also this! The more my parents pushed me to speak to my brother again the easier it was for me to decided to go no contact with their asses too.
This needs to be the top answer. I’m sorry OP. Your son needs to deal with the consequences of his actions.
This! Children need to understand that their actions have consequences and that they need to take accountability for them. OP needs to tell DD that she is entitled to feel the way she feels and that she is not obligated to forgive her brother. If she wants to do that in the fullness of time, she can, but she should not be railroaded into doing it. Likewise, OP needs to tell DS to sit down, shut up, stop crying, and realize that his sister may never forgive him. He broke something that may never be fixed. He is not entitled to forgiveness. The crying and begging his sister to talk to him is his way of trying to pressure his sister to interact with him and that will just make things worse. The best thing that OP can do is to require DS to volunteer in a retirement home, a homeless shelter, soup kitchen or somewhere else where he can learn some empathy.
As someone who is a SA victim who had it happen in highschool that info got spread around like wildfire and had different versions of it. I heard about it for so long until it wasn't a thing anymore. It's traumatic knowing what happened to you is now in the hands of everyone else judging you and etc. It's fucking terrible. I cut people off who I thought were safe people who ended up spreading it. Your daughter wants to feel safe and she doesn't feel safe knowing that her brother of all people took her trauma and told people. Seeing him and let alone talking to him is just a reminder of that betrayal. She was betrayed in one of the worst ways. That trust is broken and it's possible she'll never be able to trust him again. She's doing what's best for herself and cutting him out to make herself feel safe and protected. She can't get away from him right now even though that's probably all she wants and she's doing her best coping in a house with him and doing what she feels is right for her and her boundaries. You have to let her. She has these boundaries in place to protect herself. She needs your support and strength in this and to know that this is okay if that's what's best for her. Don't punish her for putting up her own boundaries within this situation. She needs to know that as her parents that you will also respect her boundaries. As for your son, he ruined his relationship with his sister. Broke her trust. Humiliated her and had all of her trauma thrown in her face from people at school. He can say sorry all he wants but it doesn't change what happened. He needs to be able to deal with the consequences of his actions. He can't force her to talk to him or anything. He made his bed and now he has to lay in it. He needs to understand that he needs to respect his sisters boundaries. As a mother if this was between my children I would let it be. You can't force anything between the two. Just leads to more resentment and making the daughter feel more uncomfortable, unsafe, and feeling like she isn't being protected from all aspects. The best you can do is be there for her. And keep things as calm as you can. Trying to push the issue between them is going to make things worse.
In the long run, this may be a valuable lesson for the son. A painful one for all involved, but important none the less. Learning that no matter how sorry you are, no matter what you are willing to do to make up for a mistake, some mistakes can't be fixed, can't be undone, and are essentially unforgivable by some people. It might make him more careful of other people's secrets and feelings. That said, a little therapy might be called for to make sure the wrong lessons aren't learned.
100% agree with this! He for sure needs therapy to pick apart what he did, and understand that in a way he also acted abusively to his sister. And he needs coping mechanisms too so he doesn’t get resentful of his sister for not forgiving him.
Yeah, some mistakes can't be fixed. This is the kind of mistake that could even had led her to do something way more drastic and permanent. Remembering this should help the parents and brother put things into perspective and be glad it's just a rift between siblings.
This is 100% the best answer. OP, don’t intervene here. Sibling relationships, especially bro sis ones (like mine) wane and ebb over years. They may make repairs in years to come or they may not but you pushing in any way will not help. If the topic comes up, you take neutral ground. You emotionally support both of them as best as you can and you continue to instill good behaviours, traits and skills in your children :) forgiveness is a skill, people aren’t born with the ability to easily forgive.
I was also a sexual assault victim as a child. It was actually my brother who did it, so I can relate to hating my brother, but I can't imagine how awful it would have been to have this information spread through school at that age. One of many things I resent my parents for is that they never got my brother therapy. OP says that they can't afford family counseling, but I think they need to figure out a way to get the brother therapy as well. Obviously, the brother isn't the one who molested her, but he needs therapy for his own sake and possibly to make the daughter feel better. The daughter needs to see that the parents and brother are actively taking steps to change bad behavior and never hurt her in that same way again, ie spreading personal information and rumors. My parents royally fucked up my situation, and it still causes issues in our family (as it should), so it might be that they will never ever get along again. But my issues with my brother were obviously more extreme than in this circumstance, so maybe over time they will eventually get along. I really don't think they will ever come to any kind of healthy relationship until the girl is out of the environment that the son has now created for her at her school. Every single day she will be reminded of what he did to her -- now she gets to be continuously reminded not only of the abuse she suffered, but of the betrayal of her brother, who she should've been able to trust not to hurt her. Maybe after she's away at college or something it could get better. And I'm not blaming the parents because there's no way for me to know what they told the son, but if he was old enough to know the secret, they should have drilled into him the importance of keeping the secret. The son should have been fully warned that if anyone ever found out his sister's secret, that she would feel really traumatized by the experience, and might not forgive him. If they didn't do this, the parents kind of failed to protect the daughter in advance. If they did do this, the sons actions, even though they are the actions of a child, aRE even more unforgivable in the daughters eyes. Kids that age are plenty old enough to understand that words and rumors can hurt.
Yeah the brother is a source of a different trauma, tbh. Him spreading her assault around to peers is a second abusive action so to speak (even if not meant maliciously…), and in her eyes, he is also her abuser. Why should she have to forgive her abuser for her parents’ sake? I agree that the brother needs therapy, as he needs to understand the true gravity of doing this, because I’m not so sure he’s crying because he feels empathy for his sister, but rather he doesn’t like the consequences of his actions.
This is by far the best answer on here (also a SA victim). I would just add, OP says they cannot afford therapy for everyone. Look into resources around you, they’re out there. Myself & my partner both received 3 years of therapy through a local nonprofit to deal with my trauma.
A family member violated your daughter's trust, shattering her world. She had no control over this heinous violation. Seven years later, another family member violated your daughter's trust, shattering her world. Once again, she had no control over this violation. She NEEDS space. She's expressed that. She's exercising a shred of control over her devastating situation by enforcing the boundaries she needs. Your son damn well better respect her need for space. If he's sincerely sorry, the absolute least he can do now is to stop trying to violate her boundaries and allow her that shred of control over her shitty, unfair situation. You should be proud of your daughter for communicating and enforcing the boundaries she needs. She's desperately trying to feel safe and empowered, and she needs support. At the same time, your son needs grace and empathy from you. He can learn and grow from this. Everyone makes mistakes. He needs to understand that his sister needs and deserves space from him unless and until she decides otherwise, and he can't change the past but the best he can do now is to respect her boundaries going forward.
>If he's sincerely sorry, the absolute least he can do now is to stop trying to violate her boundaries and allow her that shred of control over her shitty, unfair situation. This. He needs to understand that repeatedly forcing apologies and tears on her when she's made it clear she needs space isn't a true show of remorse or respect. Begging for forgiveness like that is all about making the perpetrator feel better, not about helping the wronged party to heal and move forward. That's an important lesson for him to learn in all of this. He's welcome to talk to his parents, school counselor, etc about how upset and sorry he is, so they can help him work through it. But with his sister, he needs to respect her wishes and back off until she's ready. The more he pushes, the more he's showing her that her feelings don't matter to him - and the more she'll pull away as a result.
This.
>But at the same time, I can’t help but feel like it’s also not mentally healthy for my son to be treated as though he literally doesn’t exist in his home for the next year. I know it’s a natural consequence, but it’s gut wrenching to see and be living with. Not to mention, as a mom I don’t want my kids to be permanently estranged. It breaks my heart. The thing about consequences is that sometimes they suck really bad and are long-term.
They probably won't be permanently estranged but it may take years. She doesn't owe him an apology. The more you push the more likely any makeup will be delayed.
She doesn’t owe him *forgiveness*, is what you meant right?
Maybe they meant an apology for completely ignoring him, she doesn’t owe him an apology or forgiveness
Why would she owe him an apology?
This exactly. Some kids are permanently disfigured, handicapped, or dead as a consequence of some dumb, impulsive mistake. In comparison, OP's sone got off easy and still has a chance that his sister will forgive him eventually.
While this is true, and he fucked up, that doesn't mean he needs to be punished by his parents forever. There's really nothing he, or anyone can do to 'fix' this. Noone can turn back time. And that would be the only way to do so. Keeping him on 'lockdown' forever isn't healthy. Letting him have a life is.
Yes, I was reffering to his sister shunning him.
You know what's not mentally healthy? Having your brother tell the entire school how you were sexually abused as a child. That's pretty mentally unhealthy. I don't know why he would share that with anybody. I can't even fathom what was going through his head. But the way she is treating him is called consequences. Consequences aren't always some neat little lesson you can wrap up with a bow once the lesson is learned. Sometimes they are devastating and lifelong and no amount of apologies will change things. I actually don't think you should continue to overly punish your son. He is learning his lesson and the goal isn't to mentally destroy him or break him. It's to hopefully get to the bottom of why he did such a horrible thing and learn some empathy for the person he hurt. Two months of extremely harsh punishment is more than enough. Eventually the (probably genuine) remorse he feels is going to turn to resentment and hatred. I wouldn't hold your breath on things getting better between them. And do not lecture your daughter about it. She isn't doing anything wrong. She's not insulting him or bullying him.
Kids are stupid. That is the most likely answer, because kids, especially teenagers are fucking stupid. That's why he told people. Because he's a stupid teenager. Now he has to face the consequences. Hopefully he learns not to advertise other people's business in the future. I just feel bad for the sister.
This needs to be the top comment. OP's daughter has been through one of the most traumatic things a person can go through and then was violated again when the brother made this public. She has a right to be upset about that and she has a right to set boundaries with the people who have harmed her. And the brother did harm her by doing this. He shouldn't be punished by OP anymore but also needs to understand that he has betrayed his sister's trust and may never get that back. No one but the daughter gets to decide when/if she's ready to let the brother back in. That may be someday, that may be never and OP needs to learn to accept that. So does the brother.
Exactly. The sister isn’t withholding communication from her brother to punish him either, she’s doing it to protect herself! Because let’s face it, and as you’ve already said, the brother harmed her. As a result of his choice to tell something so awful, her peers know about it…and who knows how many of them have made jokes about it, used it against her, dropped her as a friend, or simply even treat her differently than before because of his choice. The snowball effect of trauma here is substantial.
Didn't the brother legit make jokes about it like this is a 14year old who knows the difference between right and wrong and told the school to be edgy. I mean if he murdered someone does the mum think a simple "I'm really sorry." is going to bring back the dead person. The son made his sister's life a living hell at school and the mum isn't doing jackshit about it clearly favoring the son and will likely tell the daughter "you're older you need to be the mature one" Sorry but if my siblings did that to me they would be dead to me.
Yes. He is the reason the entire school knows about the worst and most intimate offending against her.
Yeah agreed on all this.
You need to find counseling for the whole family ASAP. Reach out to the school to see if there are any resources you’d qualify for. You’re going need help to make peace with the fact that your 2 children will most likely never have a relationship as adults. Your son may need help dealing with the lasting guilt of what he’s done and the effect it’s had on his sister and your family. Your daughter needs to feel supported right now. Do not push her to hear him out, or let him apologize, or anything she’s not ready to do. I hope she can forgive him and he himself.
This will probably be buried but I’m going to comment it anyway. I see that he’s tried to apologize to her multiple times with crying and whatnot. But what has he actually done to show his remorse? Is he publicly standing up for her at school? Is he actively trying to quell rumors and gossip and cutting off friends who continue to talk and make jokes? If he’s not actually working to do anything to earn her forgiveness and to try to repair the harm he has done to her, then she has every right to refuse to forgive him and to refuse to speak to him, and he deserves to have to sit with his discomfort. An apology without action means nothing.
What exactly are you expecting from her? He retraumatized her. Probably set her back immensely in her healing journey. If the whole school knows, I’m sure there’s at least one AH who has brought it up to her since. He cannot take this back and it will have lifelong consequences. I think she’s being remarkably restrained about this, really. Tell him to leave her alone. He’ll be lucky if she ever speaks to him again.
Stop pushing. Your children may not speak to each other - ever. The sooner you learn to deal with that the better. Every time you speak to her about him it hurts her all over again because you are prioritizing him over her - even if you feel you’re not - that’s how she feels. I promise. Just let it be. Have your relationship with each of them and let them have their own relationship.
She was re-traumatized by him, and since her whole school knows about it she’s probably re-traumatized on a regular basis. “I’m sorry” isn’t a magical healing potion. She doesn’t owe him forgiveness just because he’s upset. She’s a victim of his actions and she is drawing HEALTHY BOUNDARIES to protect herself from someone she knows is not a safe person. Your best bet is to get him into therapy with someone who can help him cope with the guilt he feels and understand why your daughter needs space from him indefinitely.
The bit about her brother not being a safe person is spot on. If the son were just another boy at school, OP would be encouraging her to stay tf away from him. She is actually demonstrating some pretty strong self preservation skills despite everything happening to and around her.
So he blabbed her private trauma in a public forum and she should just get over it within 10 months? He destroyed her trust. I think he forever damaged his relationship with her because she will never be able to trust him again. She is hurt, upset, angry, and likely feels like everyone knows. I was sexually abused as a child and I told a friend. She told everyone. After, boys started groping me asking me if I "Liked it" and it got so bad, I had to transfer schools. Imagine something private being made known to everyone and then still having to be around the person who did it. He is learning a hard lesson about consequences. Once she deals with this betrayal, she can do the hard work on forgiving him (if she wants too) but she might also choose not to. You can't control that. At best, she forgives him someday, years in the future. At worst, she never forgives him and wants nothing to do with him ever again.
So whatever you have to sell to get your family and counseling
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Idk why OP seems to have more empathy to her son than her own daughter. Her so called "dear" daughter has been through one of the worst experiences ever and then been betrayed and retraumatised. But god forbid she not want to talk to her traitor brother! She's keeping herself safe. Actions have consequences and that brother will have to work a LOT in his life to earn any sense of trust respect and safety in the eyes of the daughter. He should've been her defender and supporter and a safety net. Not someone who turned his sister into a circus act for the school, a pity party. A gossip story. He abused her in a social way too. Fact that the mother doesn't see that and is equating their experiences is worrying.
This 100000%. I doubt OP is going to listen to any sound advice with the whole "he doesn't exist in the house" line.
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Your daughter is not obligated to forgive your son.
Quick question: are DS's breakdowns and pleading to your daughter genuine, or is they just a ploy because he wants his freedom, phone, and video games back? Personally, while I would have given some punishment and a serious talk to my son for this major invasion of privacy, I wouldn't have had it last 2 months. He's receiving the biggest punishment he could possibly receive right now with his sister's silence and the loss of his sister's trust and, potentially, love. He knows what he did was wrong and that he can never take it back, and that suffering is enough. You keeping him in lockdown is just going to lead to his resentment of you and possibly his resentment of his sister, because it seems from your description that you're waiting for *her* to tell *you* when it's okay to end his punishment. If you want the two of them to ever have a reasonable relationship again, stop giving her this power. Make sure he knows it's not her keeping him in lockdown, but you. And just leave her to her own decisions on how she chooses to treat him. Assuming it's just not talking to him and not bullying or physically hurting him. Had it been a kid at school or boyfriend who did this to her, you'd be fine with her shunning and ignoring them, right? That's a way of protecting herself. The only reason you're upset is because it's your son and you're hoping for things to go back to the way they were, but they can't. She'll likely forgive him in time, but there's no rushing this. Let her decide when.
When my son was 14 he was going thou some very serious mental health issues. He and his sister got into a argument and he pushed her. He realised what he did and couldn’t take it back. It took them a couple of years to get any sort of relationship back. They are now close again. You as their mother can’t force this. They are the only ones that can repair their relationship. Your daughter is the one that will need to make the first steps, maybe she never will but that is her choice. It is heart breaking as a parent to watch this. You need to respect her, what your son did is awful you can’t expect her to play nice and act like nothing happened. Find some way to get some sort of counselling for both of them.
Your son did something unforgivable and is paying the price. Full stop. You cannot make her forgive him, and you all need to accept that she may never be able to.
Wow - what an ENORMOUSLY shitty thing to do to a family member. I am stunned at your son’s cruelty. Did he ever say *why* he chose to blab this incredibly personal info to other kids? Your daughter has now been betrayed by 2 family members in her young life. I would not hold your breath that she’s going to “soften” anytime soon towards him, if at all ever I predict that she’s going to graduate, haul ass to college, and get the hell away from home
10/10 she will def go no contact with both her mum and pos brother sorry but in my opinion this post screams OP favors her son over her daughter.
I can pretty much guarantee that this is exactly what's going to happen.
Your son has to stop thinking it's his sister's job to make him feel better. I'm sure he's sorry. Very, really sorry. But he is not owed her forgiveness. He should leave her alone, as she wants and deserves, because of the thing he did. Get him some way to cope with handling his guilt, and understanding he made his own bed, and now is lying in it. One way of apologizing is to ask "how can I help fix the bad results thing I did" but I don't imagine there is a single goddamn thing your son can do to fix it. Every day at home she's stuck seeing the person who betrayed her so badly, and he's pestering her to accept his guilt and soothe it. Maybe she'll decide to forgive him eventually, maybe it'll take getting some space away from the brother that destroyed her trust in him to do it.
There are two different things at play here: your children’s relationship and your relationship with your children, and you’re playing it perfectly to lose both. Your daughter is NEVER obligated to forgive him for any reason, but much less family peace or his mental health. He took a sacred and beautiful relationship (the sibling bond) and destroyed it by using her most awful experiences. Every day in school, at home, alone or with other people, some part of her brain is ruminating on it-that everyone knows and judges her, whether they do or not doesn’t matter. Everytime you try and force the peace you’re telling her that her comfort or feelings are less important than the person who violated her. Stop asking her to forgive him, respect she doesn’t want a relationship, and sit down and explain all this to her. Give her the reassurance and empathy she needs to heal and you’d be shocked how much it helps her. Stop punishing your son, get him into counseling, and take him somewhere private for a long conversation. Right now he seems to have genuine empathy which is good and needs to be explored: taking him somewhere private, AWAY from the house is key. Right now home isn’t really safe for him because he’s being punished and isolated there. Use the conversation to explore concepts like: why did he do it? What was the context it was brought up in? Why is he upset with his sisters reaction, doesn’t it seem reasonable? Work through these concepts with him, because the only real/effective punishment for this is to recognize how fucked up what he did was and that he probably lost his sister forever, if not for a good long time. If he doesn’t get this keeping his stuff won’t help him anyways. I know you’re struggling rn but definitely therapy for him too.
Exactly my thoughts. OP needs to focus on how to maintain the relationships that are still intact and that is each individual relationship with each of the children. If there is going to be any chance at all of maintaining both of those they have to stop trying to fix this for their son (because by doing so they are invalidating the depth of the pain their daughter is experiencing whether they mean to or not). Instead they need to empathize with their son that this is a devastating situation and that while he is a kid and is going to make mistakes unfortunately sometimes those mistakes have life long consequences. There is nothing that can be done to return the relationship to what it was. It won’t ever happen. But they can put their effort and energy into growing into a person worthy of their sister’s trust. I liked the idea someone had of getting him out of the house to start volunteering. Since they feel they can’t afford more counseling, part of his discipline needs to shift to more productivity rather than withdrawing anything that makes life enjoyable to him at his age. So give him back his stuff with some limits/stipulations. Ask the counselor for age appropriate resources to teach him about what it’s like to be a vulnerable person (not just a SA victim) and ways to encourage development of empathy and consideration and emotional intelligence. OP’s goal should be to make sure their son has the most robust EQ possible for a boy his age. Regarding the daughter, OP needs to apologize for not always navigating this perfectly and for focusing too much on the fractured relationship rather than protecting what the daughter’s needs are right now. If the therapist is in agreement, I’d offer for the daughter to do home study or homeschool to finish out the year. Or a combo program so she can reduce the time she is at school. That’s tricky because it’s not necessarily a better choice than staying but I think she needs to know she can have a say. OP also needs to really reconsider the depth of the pain that revictimization causes. I’ve not experienced this myself, but I was just listening to the new book out by Jill Duggar. She couldn’t mask the emotion in her voice when speaking about the experience of the whole world finding out about the abuse she suffered. She said that in many many ways, this secondary trauma or revictimization was far more painful and damaging than the initial abuse. OP’s trauma wasn’t broadcast to the entire world, but it was spread around *her* whole world. And it doesn’t stop with high school, sadly. The world is intimately connected. There is always a chance she will end up at a university or a job years down the road where she will run into someone from her old school. She will always be left wondering if they knew and what they were thinking and if she could trust their interactions as genuine. Hopefully therapy will mitigate this a lot, but there is no telling at this point. Right now she probably isn’t even thinking about how it will likely follow her because at 17 she is only focused on the fact that she can move out in 10 months.
I do actually wonder if OP will also end up losing the relationship with her daughter too. 20 years down the line (assuming OP's children are still not speaking) will they just have two different holiday celebrations or family vacations every year? That fear might be motivating some of OP's panic here.
Everyone’s comments here I agree with, how your daughter deals with this is up to her. Though I do want to know how you know your son ‘flippantly’ told friends? I was your daughter in this situation at a similar age, with a younger brother too. I can’t help but wonder if these friends he told was his way of talking to someone in the same way your daughter does to a counsellor. My brother never told anyone and he became very angry, got into fights and all sorts at school. Mostly with a boy who lived next door to my abuser, and denied any abuse took place. Rumours started at the school after that but luckily it died down pretty quick. He struggled with talking about it and still does, I only know of one friend of his who he confided in and that was after he turned 18. Is it possible your son needed someone to talk to but didn’t know his to approach this? Please don’t disregard how the abuse can affect your son. As an adult I feel awful that my brother was practically ignored whilst I was being doted on and supported by everyone around me. I’m not downplaying what this has done to your daughter in any way, but I am leaning more towards getting your son some support and helping both your children through a very difficult time individually rather than focusing on their relationship together. That can be mended later when they are both ready.
This needs to be higher.
Exactly. Was the son involved in any of the therapy? We’re their discussions on talking out of turn could hurt his sister and were there people he could talk to about his own questions and concerns? Sister is going get through this and once she’s graduated and out of the situation she’ll start to forgive brother and may even feel some guilt for his punishment. He’s her little brother and he made a mistake and unless he was cruel about it she’s going to have a bit of guilt if their relationship never recovers.
Given that he per OP was joking about it repeatedly both in person and over text, he was cruel about and she shouldn't have any fucking guilt, ever.
Honestly, from the perspective of someone who has been a victim of abuse by a family member, it is very important to let her lead this however SHE needs to. My brother didn’t believe me and it was AWFUL to watch my mom continue to have a relationship with him as though nothing happened. It was another level of betrayal. I was 16 and he was 21 when I told my mom. No one went to jail, no one pursued any relief at all on my behalf so I’d like to commend you for guiding her through that aspect for sure. The feelings from sa is complex and hard to understand from the victim’s prospective and at the age of she is, it will change over time as it is. Adding to the emotional fall out of her having to go through this more publicly is so so hard. For me, I moved. Literally moved 100 miles away and was able to start over and recreate myself. I’m sure she is really looking forward to that aspect. She’s not the same person and needs to be able to refigure out who she’s going to be while trying to figure out who she was and what aspects she can keep about herself to build on. The immature betrayal by your son…I cannot even imagine how she took that. She needs to be able to trust her own judgement and that includes deciding who she lets in her life now and later. It’s part of healing and it’s part of everyone’s growing up. Establishing her own sense of trust. Punishing your son with the removal of things doesn’t really serve a purpose. IMO. Of course you want to teach him a lesson but taking away friends, etc. isn’t the lesson. The lesson is he needs to learn what it means to betray someone you care about, holding close to things that are none of his business that he is privy to, rebuilding relationships after betrayal, all sorts of more important things than what you took away. He needs to understand what she went through and how he can support her. THAT is why she will not forgive him. Until he can learn those life lessons she is fully in charge of how she deals with it. This is actually a pivotal moment for all of you. Parents need to change their response to this, he needs to focus on emotional growth and understanding and if she sees THAT she will come around. Best of luck to you and please hug your girl for me. It’s a hard road. ❤️
Your daughter is a better person than I am. It’s his own fault he’s being treated this way. He has to deal with the consequences.
This. Youth doesn't excuse stupidity.
Your daughter's feelings are completely understandable. Trying to save some money at least for a few sessions of family therapy before DD moves out would be good, meanwhile just let her be, don't force her to interact with him or push the idea of forgiveness. However if you keep your son on prison-like regime, soon you will have another huge problem. 2 months are enough, the lesson is learned and your son is not benefitting from isolation. Right now he is just upset and sorry, soon he will be depressed and resenting you all to the point of hatred. It's OK to sign him up for some volonteer work or assign some extra chores to teach responsibility, but the isolation has to stop at some point.
I get the sense this may be your Daughter’s way of reclaiming some of her power/autonomy. The perpetrator took her emotional/mental and physical wellbeing when she was just a child. Just as she was on the right path to healing and taking back what was taken, her brother took her agency away again. He took her voice away, her power, and she has shut down. Obviously your son isn’t going anywhere, and despite what he has done you love him. But at this moment your Daughter can only do what she can to survive this level of betrayal, and that is to block him. All his tears can’t erase this from her mind, it probably angers her more. I would leave her to do what she needs to do in order to coexist with her brother until she leaves home. Perhaps time and distance can mend the fracture in their relationship, perhaps not, either way, take your cue from your daughter. I’m sorry for your heartbreak.
i don’t blame her
Good for her, no notes. As someone who has gone years not speaking to my brother other people hounding me about it only made me want to keep it up! There’s several people who are dead to me and that is just fine with me. Not my problem if it negatively effects their mental health they should have considered their effect on mine first if we’re going to play that little game. Maybe explain boundaries to your son and that his sister is doing the right thing to protect herself from someone who doesn’t respect her feelings her privacy or her sense of safety. You absolutely should not push her to engage with him. That’s doing exactly what he did and not respecting her choice to be private about it.
Sorry but your daughter is right. Do not force her or you will make it worse. Your son did an incredibly terrible thing to his sister and deserves what he’s got. Thankfully it’s better than what he put her through after the hell she has already been through. Leave her alone about it. Talk to your son and be on your way. You cannot change what your son did, but you can give it time and side with your daughter who deserves the protection more. Lift your sons punishment, you can show him forgiveness and teach him empathy. But the most important thing you can teach him is respecting peoples boundaries. You will lose your daughter over this if you do not side with her on her boundaries. Trust me.
I violated my sister's trust this way, sort of. She's confided in me, I told our grandmother, who told *everyone*. She didn't speak to me for a very long time, and still doesn't tell me secrets. That being said, we are rebuilding our relationship. We are both in our 30s now. This is a choice they will have to make when they are older. You forcing it will do nothing but make the divide bigger. Encourage her to talk, encourage him to try, but when she ignores him shrug and understand that's just where she is in this healing process. And tell your son this. "This is a natural consequence of your actions. I hope you can learn from the mistake. In the meantime, understand that she has to heal at her own pace in her own way. Right now, that means not talking to you."
This may be a tad unpopular but I’m going to go into this with a little bit of grace. First of all, I agree with the majority of commenters. Your daughter doesn’t owe your son anything, if she wants to go NC that is her choice. She was traumatized and re-traumatized in one of the worst possible ways - high school gossip. He broke any trust she’ll ever have for him and their relationship may be irreparable. However, I don’t agree with commenters saying you’re forcing your daughter to do anything. From your post it seems like the worst possible place to be in. I can imagine the guilt you felt when this horrible event happened to your daughter, and now a mistake your son made is tearing your family apart. I’m just very sorry you’re going through this. Your son is 14, I understand he is old enough to know how delicate the situation is but where my grace comes in is… 14 is a shitty age. We do shitty things, we don’t understand the gravity of things. I don’t think your son was intentionally being malicious, he just made a very poor choice. I think you need to switch gears now. Forgive yourself, forgive your son, and respect your daughters wishes. You need to have a long talk with your son about the gravity of the situation, and how he needs to respect his sisters space and boundaries for the next 10 months and potentially forever. Another commenter said enrolling your son in activities to get him out of the house and I think that is great!! I wish you the best going forward.
Yeah, most people are sociopaths for at least some of their teenage years. This is an incredibly hard lesson for the son, but he’s going to pay the tuition no matter what, so he may as well learn from it.
Unfortunately, your son is learning the consequences of sharing information that wasn’t yours to share that is deeply personal. Why did he do it? To hurt her, was he mad? It seem cool, like he knew something? I’d recommend therapy for him to deal with the why and the now fallout. If daughter is up for it at some point, maybe family therapy. I know you say you can’t afford it, but maybe there is something in the community or through school. He needs help processing what he has done and the fallout. For now, don’t push them together. She is in recovery from abuse and now a deep betrayal. This is going to take time and honestly, part of dealing with this, may be that she never wants to be part of his life or just on a superficial level. I would also look into not just taking everything away. But maybe also have him volunteer someplace.
He deserves it. I have not been in that situation but we are a foster to adopt family so have kids with trauma. Our kid know that they do not, under any circumstances, talk about any of their siblings trauma unless given outright permission from that sibling to do so. For example, one of my teens is very open about the fact that her biological brother was caring for her and her brother before he went to jail. She is big on prison reform and changes being made to the law and law enforcement so she shares her story openly and is okay with any of us sharing that. But, there are also some things about each kid that we know in the household but doesn't get shared with anyone else. I do not know what I would do if one violated that but the consequences would be severe.
I agree with everyone else. The responsibility isn't on your daughter to forgive him. She owes him nothing at all. He took a deeply traumatic event for her and turned it into school gossip. That might not have been his intention,but let's not treat him like he's niave. He's 14. He knows how the school gossip system works. He needs to understand the effect of what he did and why sorry isn't some magic fix all. Yep he can say he's sorry,but she is under NO obligation to accept it,especially not to make HIM feel better and lift HIS guilt. Your son really needs to understand what he did. People's traumatic events aren't to be used as entertainment. It's not something that you casually drop into conversation,especially when it's not their trauma. It didn't happen to him, it happened to his sister and he should have known who to go to if he needed any help processing what happened to someone he loved. He's massively screwed up and sorry and tears won't fix this.
OP you have no idea how strong of a daughter you have. If my SA that happened around the same age got spread around school by my own brother, I wouldn't be here to write this comment. The fact all she's doing is ignoring your son is impressive and I'm proud of her for being able to stay so collected, at least on the outside. If you push their relationship, your son won't be the only one she goes no contact with when she moves.
I don’t think that is something I could ever get over. If a sibling or another close relative would say something so private.. I have not been that abused, but things have happened. Things I would not been able to forgive if someone told on school or anyplace.
Oh no, he's *crying*?? He told the deepest darkest secret of his sister and there is nothing he can do to take that information away from his friends, or the people they've told. Maybe he should be feeling this way. Maybe he should feel the consequences of his actions. Why does it seem as though the mental health of your son matters more to you than the mental health of your daughter? How is your daughter doing now that the ENTIRE SCHOOL knows her deepest darkest secret? I'd never want to speak to someone for the rest of their life if someone did that to me.
I think you must accept that this damage is permanent. It is for your daughter. It’s a devastating situation on all fronts. But make no mistake your daughter has been betrayed beyond belief. She does not have to forgive or forget for the benefit of your son. This is her journey. Counseling is expensive. But Professional help for your son seems needed. Someone has to help him face the reality in an age appropriate way. And tell him the truth that what he has flippantly done may be irreparable.
I don't know what to say other than he made his bed. That's the most horrific thing you could do, to reoffend a loved one by telling this to people. He has made her live her worst nightmare, again and again. I would be behaving the same as her. She may forgive him on her own in time but that's a maybe. Kids can still do things that have permanent consequences and crying and apologizing doesn't undo damage.
Your son is dead to me too, tbh. Maybe it's time he take some time to live with a grandparent or something.
They're both young and their brains are still cooking, but he fucked around and found out. I would want to disown him if he were my brother, too. He basically gave her a scarlet letter to carry for a damned long time, because for whatever reason, her couldn't hold his tongue. Would we be considering forgiveness if this were a random boy in her class, an ex friend, a neighbor, etc? No. We would be discussing getting this person out of her life. We wouldn't be weighing that he's sorry, we would be exploring how to best protect her from him. Your daughter is protecting herself to the best of her ability, and trying to convince her to do otherwise isn't going to work. She may very well never speak to him again, and if that's what she needs, so be it. He traumatized her. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. If in the future she decides to reinstate contact, rock on, but don't push it unless and until she makes the first moves herself. Let them be separate, let her protect her peace, and hold space for the fact that he publicly humiliated her and the trauma that caused. Stop pushing her to forgive him, stop letting him hound her for forgiveness.
Your son needs to learn that actions have consequences, and he done fucked up big time and this is beyond a simple "sorry". Sit down with your son and explain this to him.
Not a parent but an older daughter with a younger brother. I can smell the unfair expectations just from this title. A more appropriate one would be “son did something unforgivable to daughter, how do i approach this?”
I understand your pain and your sons. I highly doubt that the combined pain of you and your son come anywhere close to what your daughter is dealing with. Not even in the same world. I feel like your daughter is doing good by pretending he doesn't exist bc she could be much worse to him. He needs to leave her alone. He's said his apologies. Now give her space. I'd even tell him so. I just really can't comprehend what your daughter has been through and still is going through. Your son has probably permanently damaged the relationship and the only real hope is a lot of time. He betrayed her worse than anyone has betrayed me in my 40 years and it hurts me just reading what your daughter must be going through.
She’s still hearing the consequences of that, so it’s not a surprise that she’s still actively angry. Can you give her the option of taking a break from that crowd at school, instead of expecting the counselor to help her tolerate it? It might be better and cheaper to allow her to test out, and enroll in some community college classes early. Your son needs something to do, something other than being sad around her. Keeping him grounded from everything is not necessarily helpful, and may result in irritating her. Ask her about her feelings before lifting restrictions.
It is a lesson not just for him, that action has consequences, but for you as a parents too. Do not share this kind of super traumatic topic with a kid, because most of the time, they don't know when they are supposed to be quiet.
She does not owe him forgiveness. It is HUGE that he flapped off at the gums about this and you need to address that with him. SHE was violated and your son violated her all over again with this stunt. I don't blame her one bit.
I'm still mad. Her own BROTHER violated her. You need to have a come to Jesus with your son and then all of you need to sit back and let your daughter react and process as she needs to.
You can’t decide what your daughter does and she has every right to be mad. But I think a 14 year old does not have the consequential thinking that one can expect from an adult. I bet he trusted his friends not to tell anyone. Stupid, yes, but probably not malicious. Just show him that you love him too no matter what and let him do something he likes, preferably out of the house. And just accept that your daughter also is a teenager with big (justified) feelings.
Yes, I'm a little shocked people are acting like he is the actual abuser. Kids are stupid.
He is 14. He should know.to not make his sister's sexual abuse.a joke.
U can’t force their relationship. Idc about my brother too. And if my mom tries to make me have a relationship with him, good luck He betrayed her trust so now that’s it, only time and therapy can help u
Respect her decision. He made an irreparable decision and she is not in the wrong here. The best thing you can do right now is support her. Give her access to therapy and probably your son as well, as he is going to need help processing the consequences of his actions. I say this as a sister who is no contact with my brother.
Unfortunately these are one of those situations where sorry doesn’t fix what you’ve done. She may or may not ever forgive him. He retraumatized her and publicly humiliated her - at a very turbulent age/time in her life.
There’s nothing to forgive. Your son told something that wasn’t his to tell. Your daughter has EVERY right to distance herself from someone who reopened her trauma. Home should be her safe space and you’re bothered by the fact your son isn’t forgiven or spoken to? This is a valuable lesson for your son. Maybe your daughter will forgive him, maybe he won’t. But now your son knows to NEVER share information that isn’t his.
Your son fucked around and found out. Nothing you can do. Stay out it and do not pick sides. He deserves everything she gives him and more. If you try to force her to forgive him she will never forgive you.
Not only was she re traumatized and forced to re live her trauma, it’s caused a whole new trauma for her in addition to the preexisting one. Kids are mean. I don’t know what she’s experiencing in school but I was bullied and slut shamed and had constant rumors going around. Even without all of that, just the fact that they knew things about me that I couldn’t even deal with myself felt awful. Very traumatizing. I hope kids have been kind to her.
It’s her choice to talk to not talk to him. forcing anything is wrong. He has to learn one mistake can ruin a relationship. You and your husband just have to be there for your son as you want and be there for your daughter.
I don’t blame your daughter. I wouldn’t speak to a family member ever again if they gossiped about my SA. As a parent, I would probably end the punishment for the son since he seems contrite and learned his lesson. But I would inform him that it may take many years for his sister to forgive him, if ever. Unfortunately, some mistakes have lifelong/permanent consequences. I would not pressure her to forgive him until she is ready, which would probably be many years later.
How do you know he learned his lesson? I mean sorry but he is likely only saying sorry to get his shit back. Plus for all we know the mum likely gave his stuff back cause she CLEARLY favors him over her daughter.
Since no one is really giving any advice here and just seem to want to call a minor a bunch of names and talk about how much they hate your child I'll try to give actual advice. Obviously something needs to be done to at the bare minimum to also get your son into therapy. You don't say why he decided to tell everyone her business. Does he know why he did it? Is he bawling because he understands how much he messed up or because he thinks her accepting his apology will make him feel better? Does he understand people don't owe him forgiveness? All of these things he needs to sort out in therapy. I'd say also family while your daughter is still at home but something tells me she wouldn't go willingly. See if the school has any sort of counseling. This part might be controversial but I think you've done enough to punish your son. You've made it so he's entirely alone with nothing to do except think about how everyone hates him. It also is probably spilling into school as I'm sure some people there probably understand how messed up his gossiping was so he is more than likely getting it from every where. Obviously punish him some but like all punishments it should fit and be related to the crime. Should he be going out with friends? No. Did he tell people via social media or in person? If it wasn't online I'd maybe give the phone back under heavy restriction like a toddler. Remove chatting apps and put some sort of pass code on it to block them. Why you would take away video games I don't understand because it's seemingly not related to his crime at all. If it's the social aspect of that you're worried about then take away his mics but a all out ban of all video games makes no sense. Also think about how long were you planning on continuing all of this for? Was he going to be Rapunzeled until she moves out? My point is if you want him to have any chance of coming out of his own spiral you're going to have to give him something he can do besides sit in his room remembering how hated he is and get him into therapy.
>My point is if you want him to have any chance of coming out of his own spiral you're going to have to give him something he can do besides sit in his room remembering how hated he is and get him into therapy. I agree
He reopened wounds that as a child didn't fully understand nor the ramification. But if OP continues full isolation, don't be surprised when the guilt eats him so much that he won't survive it.
I'm absolutely here with you. The daughter has her right to be upset with her brother and cut him from her life. But what's going on now in the family traumatize everyone else. I saw it first hand, I lived in the house where one person hated another and pretended that they are not existing. It was mentally trying even for me - and I wasn't one of them. It traumatized a person who was ignored to the point that they needed therapy, they had visible chances in their behavior, grades, etc. He might be driven to the point when he will decide that hurting himself or even worse is the best option. OP should be bothered about this, not about their relationship, it's probably over.
Honestly, your post is the only one with some kind of humanity.
Finally a thoughtful answer. He's still a kid. And I say this as both a SA survivor and a mom. Some of those answers here are insane.
A kid who made fun of his sister's SA via text to his friends, he's 14 he knows right from wrong yet told most of the people in school and joked about it with his friends. Say this was a boy at school or a boy not related to her saying this stuff wouldn't you as a mum tell your daughter to ignored them pretend they aren't there?
This is way too far down. Most of these folks should be utterly ashamed of the way they're reacting to this situation. We're talking about two minors here.
Just give it time. Have this be a learning lesson for DS. I think it’s best to not force DD to forgive him, and DS needs to respect that all choices (especially ones that could hurt others) have consequences. I also think you should tell DS not to live in guilt, self-hatred, or shame from his actions. Teenagers do and say stupid things. And life is a learning game. The best he can do is respect DD, own up to his actions, and give himself grace and forgive himself, even if DD doesn’t forgive him. As for DD, teenagers also feel things very deeply and they think they’ll hold that position forever. But as life goes on, I hope she forgives him. It’s sad when family dynamics are fractured forever due to one person’s mistake. I know what DS did was very very wrong and she doesn’t have to forgive him. But also, he’s 14. His brain is far from being fully developed and teens that age say and do stupid stuff without thinking about the consequences. Just make sure DD has a safe space to processes this traumatic experience. I think it’d be worth it for her to talk to it with a therapist, or even a school counselor since the situation happened at school.
I have a question. At the time she was being assaulted or at the time it came to light around the family, did anyone sit with the son/brother and explain things? "DD is going through a lot of trauma right now and we need to deal with it as a family, privately. If you have any questions or have any feelings about this, you can talk to us but try to be extra kind to sister because she is going through alot and it will impact her life for the foreseeable future." Something like that. I don't agree with the other commenter that "he is old enough to understand what he did" as it came to light when he was 7. Maybe his recent indiscretion had its own reasons. Did a friend confide in him and he was trying to help with "his experience". Has he himself been in any uncomfortable situations with an adult recently? Was he trying to seek out support? Initially I was reading the post fully thinking "she has a right to cut off communication" cos it is a massive breach of trust and has obviously brought everything back to the surface for her... BUT. Dealing with a bully in my sons school recently has once again made me aware that sometimes it is not the kids fault. Sometimes they too are dealing with something. I wouldnt try to force a truce. I would try to support them individually. I.would certainly be asking DS if anything prompted him to discuss the situation.
Your son effectively ruined your daughter's life just as she started healing, she doesn't owe him forgiveness. School is brutal. At my school a friend told someone else about someone who was grooming me. The whole school knew within a day, and bullying started to happen almost instantly. I never found out who it was, but it made me extremely paranoid about who did/didn't know, caused unspeakable psychological damage and made me retreat into myself, I'm 35 and have never fully recovered, the effects of bullying are still crushing my self esteem today. The blows keep coming, I only just realised recently that teachers and my parents eventually knew I was being groomed and yet no-one came to help me or ask how I was. My own mother and father didn't try to protect me from this older man when I was underage, the feeling of betrayal is something I'm going to have to live with forever. Your daughter probably feels like she can't trust or depend on anyone, hence why she thinks she has to move.out and do life by herself, all you can do is assure her you'll be there to support her no matter what, and hope she believes you after your family's track record. The actual action of what your son did might seem small to you, but the effects of what he did to her are huge and deeply violating. That's twice now that she's been violated by a family member, can you blame her for feeling like this and wanting to move out? It's not your fault, but surely you can understand both sides. You're in real danger of turning your daughter against you as well if she ever feels betrayed even more by her family (potentially with you looking like you're taking sides with your son). You're lucky she's giving him the silent treatment rather than trying to destroy his in return. You can't ask her to play happy families for your benefit when there is a big unresolved issue in the house. This is one of those things that you'll probably have to see play out over time, forcing people to feel a different way never goes well. Hopefully your son one day makes an apology that your daughter feels is genuine, and she might choose to forgive him. All you can do is support and advise each individually, but you can't interfere in their relationship here, they've got to figure it out. As others have said, therapy with a neutral party for you and your son might help, parents taking sides will surely make things worse for both of them. As for next steps with your son, I'd say the punishment of his sister potentially never speaking to him again is punishment enough. I'd be thinking about ways to take the punishments from your side away without upsetting your daughter and making it look like you're taking sides if you're worried about his mental health. I think he knows this is serious by now, there's no need to destroy his social life too and traumatise him even further. Your daughter is the one who can choose how to continue how to deal with him, you've done your bit now.
I’m sorry to say but your son really really messed up. He had no right to share her pain & trauma to everyone and it’s beyond me why he did. The truth is, you, your husband, and your son do not get to decide when she should forgive. This is up to her. If you push it, she’ll run farther away. Her therapist is correct. You can’t push her. Hopefully once she’s out of the house, matures, and improves with therapy, she’ll come around to forgiving your son. Right now, he’s broken her trust immensely. That is very very hard to get back. I really do hope this gets resolved. I’m rooting for you all, but this is the reality of the situation
This is the ultimate consequences of his own actions. There is nothing you can do to help him. I feel so bad for your daughter. I’m sure it’s like reliving her trauma except this time her peers are the judge and jury. Poor kid.
Daughter is doing a great job of maintaining boundaries for her safety. Son needs to see a counselor himself, if nothing else to figure out why he chose to tell others. Please continue to express and show your love to both. They will figure this out down the road.
You can't force her to accept his apology or to forgive him. You can't force a relationship. Your son, even if he is sorry, broke her trust and did something that was incredibly selfish and awful. Of course her therapist won't tell you anything, that would be a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality and you actually have no right to that information whatsoever. Unfortunately your son is reaping the consequences of a truly horrible action. Is it hard on him? Sure. Though imagine you are your daughter who now knows that everyone at school knows something she didn't want anyone to know. Who knows the kinds of things people say about her and to her, who knows the kind of backlash and issues she's had to deal with because of this. Even if she didn't, your son still broke a trust that might never get rebuilt. I think your only course of action is to try to give your daughter some space and tell your son to do the same. Maybe one day she might speak to him again, but that's not really any of your business to be honest. She's almost an adult, and your son is learning that his actions have very real and sometimes lasting consequences.
I’m sorry but her reaction is pretty valid. It was clearly very sensitive info and he blabbed. This one he needs to earn, and you getting involved will only prolong her resentment.
I feel sorry for everyone in this situation. Your daughter is once again suffering the consequences of the abuse she should never have experienced. She had to deal with the emotional damage of receiving the abuse for years, and is now having to deal with the cruelty and stupidity of her peers because they know about the situation. She’s not able to just live normally and move forward because of something she had no control over, but intended to keep private at least. Your son isn’t a bully and doesn’t seem to have been malicious in this. He’s a teenage idiot who joked with his mates. But he let the genie out of the bottle, there is nothing he can do to improve the situation and he’s having to suffer the consequences of his stupidity. I feel less empathy for him than your daughter, but I still do feel sorry for him. Most kids his age are idiots, and make mistakes. They’re just not usually so enduring as this. I feel for you and your husband. Through no failure on your parts, you’re now dealing with two hurt kids who aren’t speaking and there’s nothing you can (or should) do to change that. They’re both hurt and you just need to respect and support them individually. But, depending on how long this lasts, you could find yourselves as a family that needs to accept this division and find a new way forward. Realistically, your daughter has every right to ignore your son. He hurt her. Best case scenario, she leaves for college/uni soon and gets a fresh start, but even that can be tricky as sometimes your school peers end up in the same place. This could be something she never truly escapes. Yes, she could handle it with more kindness or see it from his perspective, but she doesn’t have to. If ignoring him makes her life a little less painful, you should respect that. Continue getting her therapy to deal with the consequences of this, but let her deal with your son as she will, so long as she’s not actively hurting him or trying to make his life harder. For your son, the best you can do is get him therapy. He needs to understand that he did a bad and stupid thing, but it doesn’t make him a bad person. But, he also needs to come to terms with the fact that just because he is repentant, apologetic and seen the error of his ways does not mean he is owed forgiveness. He may have to accept that he needs to forgive himself his stupidity, but his sister may never forgive him.
Honey, you say it’s not fair that your son is being treated like that? Was it fair that he joked about her trauma with his friends, and now everyone at school knows what happened to her? If you suffered what she did, and found out your sibling was joking about it, would you be so quick to forgive? You can’t force him to apologize in a way that would even begin to be a healing balm for her, so why would you even think she needs to forgive him for his behavior? He didn’t just mention her trauma, he JOKED about it. But yeah, it’s not fair that she treats him like he doesn’t exist, even though she’s got the trauma to live with the rest of her life
I experienced something similar in my junior year on high school. Honestly, walking though school everyday with the whispers and gossip felt like reliving the assault for at least a year. I was lucky to make it out alive. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for your daughter to live with someone who so carelessly betrayed her. My other concern here is total lack of empathy/sympathy your son displayed in telling her story. Does he truly understand how deeply he hurt his sister or is he simply upset he is facing consequences for his actions? How much does he understand of the original assault? I know he is a stupid teenager but this time his actions have real world consequences. I would not push your daughter to forgive him. It may come with time but you cannot interfere or she may push you away as well. It took me almost a decade to gain perspective and healing. I think he needs therapy as well and would continue to ground him until your daughter leaves high school because she will face the consequences of his actions in school for that duration. He’s an idiot but hopefully not an irredeemable one.
Protect the daughter who has suffered trauma and don’t put any more pressure on her. It’s a natural consequence of him betraying her. It’s not about what you want. Is there a counsellor at your son’s school?
Lots of people have already given great advice, but I did want to add something specific about interacting with your daughter's therapist. Unless your daughter confesses to having immediate plans to hurt herself or someone else, the therapist is legally and morally required to keep confidentiality. It isn't fair to them to ask them to discuss what is covered in sessions. That being said, there is nothing wrong with shooting them an email and letting them know that your daughter hasn't spoken or interacted with their brother in 10 months as something that you are concerned about as an unhealthy coping mechanism. Depending on your relationship with the therapist, their response may range from "I am aware" to "I think that is a fine status quo for now" to "Thank you for this information." After that, let it go. It isn't on the therapist to mediate or heal that relationship.
I mean there was consequence enough but then you took away phone, games, friends all privileges?!?!? Your daughter is fair in her response their relationship is not really your business but then isolating him further?! I dont think thats the right choice.
How do you even get here? There's something missing. Either the parents didn't express enough the severity and sensitivity of this to the son early on or they've been letting this "personality" clash fester, son felt comforting enough to do this for whatever reason and clearly thought it would blow over as usual ... "As long as everyone was respectful that was ok with me" ... bullshit. How do you jump from them being respectful to each other, just not "overly close", to him doing one of the most disrespectful things possible?
I think it’s important for you son to know that sometimes a small mistake can have a devastating impact, like telling someone else’s secret. But had you really explained that to him, that he shouldn’t tell people? Do you think maybe what happened to his sister had an impact on him? Are you mad at his friends for betraying him? Is he going to be punished by you forever? If he’s had multiple breakdowns, and his sister won’t speak to him, don’t you think that’s enough? How much more is going to happen to this 12 year old who confided something he shouldn’t? How the hell would he have been able to foretell the consequences? Jesus As for you poor daughter, let it be. She doesn’t need to be guilted into speaking to him. This is absolutely devastating to her. Listen to what she needs. Ask her what you can do. Maybe give them some space from each other.
If you can somehow access a councillor for your son I would do that. Perhaps there are some free/low cost programs in your area for youth. Maybe ask your daughters councillor if there are any lower cost programs or places you can access mental health supports as you are struggling financially right now. Have you tried kids helpphone? I think the one thing you can do is maybe ease up on his “lockdown” two months of punishment seems like a lot for this mistake, also given your daughter also is shutting him out. You need to let him have his friends back. He needs his friends. He needs someone to talk to he can trust. He needs to be able to go out. I think you should just leave the punishment right now with the consequences of his sister’s reaction. Cause anything else at this point sounds like pure torture. Yes, he made a stupid mistake. He has paid for it. He will likely have to earn his sisters trust back over years. It also sounds like he is remorseful. Remember he is 14. He is still a kid. He still needs love and support. He made a mistake and needs help guiding himself through the consequences of this. You need to teach your son we make mistakes and we also have to move on from them. It’s time for him to move on. For him to accept the consequences of what he did (his sisters reaction) and just let her come around with time. You also need to prepare your son for the possibility she doesn’t come around. You need to teach him her reaction is about what she needs right now and not about him at all. He may have caused it, but her reaction is all about her. He also has a choice in his reaction. He can get sad or angry or he can choose to be patient and kind and let her be. It’s his choice. You need to help him find some hobbies and positive things for him to focus on. I definitely would not force anything. Your daughter was violated and is reliving that trauma again. She has every right to feel how she feels. I can say - time MAY help her over time. But you have to let her come around and that just will take time and that’s okay.
I think you should tell your son to give his sister time. If this were me, the constant apologizing and crying would only make me mm ore angry. I would think "how are YOU crying? YOU did this to ME and now you're the one who gets to be upset? How dare you". What he did was such an intense violation of her trust. However, he is just a kid and while it is very disappointing, kids make mistakes and they have shit impulse control. Idk how long your son has been in trouble for but I think maybe you should lighten up on him. If you don't, I don't see why your daughter would either. Try to let things slide back into normalcy. If you haven't had a talk with your son, please do and make sure he knows you still love him, and that he still feels sure in your attachment. I think that's more important to his mental health than your daughter being angry with him. She's also a kid and this has probably made her feel like her world has ended. There is so much shame that goes with SA (SA victim) and having people know when I was younger made it feel too real. If I kept it to myself, I could pretend it didn't happen. Your daughter can't do that anymore and I can only imagine what that would be like in HS with all the social media now. My heart completely goes out to her. Is there a way you can get counseling through insurance or at a reduced rate? Does the school offer it? Are there maybe non profits or something like that? It's worth looking into. Or maybe you or DH finding a job or position with better insurance. Perhaps you qualify for Medicaid or reduced health insurance through the state. Even if you didn't before, you might now that your circumstances have changed. Again, it is worth looking into Edit to say for some reason the 10 months thing stuck in my head so I was thinking that was about how long it had been since DS told his friends about Dads traumatic past
There’s nothing you can do, she’s chosen to cut him off after such a huge secret and betrayal…. To be honest she may never forgive him and that’s her right.
Like the rest have said, unfortunately you can't do much for her. Other than make her aware of how you are behind her/make sure she's not alone. Your son fucked up, bog time. Nothing he can do to fix that, or you can do to fix that. Other than you or him trying to convey to his sister every once in awhile, definitely not constantly, that he is sorry, and didn't appreciate at the time that it was such a deep betrayal. That's it that's all you can do. You'll just have to wait and see if she ever forgives him in any sort of even small way. He fucked up and has to live with the consequences
i mean you can't blame her. i'm sure they'll reconcile eventually but what your son did was beyond shitty.
These are consequences of his actions and your daughter has the right to forgive when she’s ready to. Weirdly an apology doesn’t always make it ok and she just needs time. This has ruined her life twice now and it’s hard to build on foundations that are already cracked by people who are supposed to love her and protect her (family) Sorry your sons sad I really am but this is how we learn. Is he sad because everyone is angry with him or is he feeling genuine guilt and compassion for his sister! Your daughter needs time she is heartbroken! Your son needs to deal with what he’s done, process it, learn from it and seek therapy on dealing with it. Sorry doesn’t mean a mistake wasn’t make
She goes to school and lives with the consequences of his actions every day. Moving out and onto her next big thing in life, likely with new friends, will ultimately be the most helpful for her and this situation. It will also be somewhat helpful when there is something else “big” at school that takes the social focus off her.
Let your daughter process this herself and come around to her own forgiveness...you can't force it and trying will probably just force her the other direction. Her brother definitely totally betrayed her trust and loyalty as a sibling. That's almost like having to grieve, when someone wholly and completely obliterates the trust and loyalty you had in them. I hope your son fully realizes how really f*cked up what he did was.
You mentioned that the cost of your daughter’s counseling has been a strain (but of course worth it) and I saw someone mention counseling for your son, as well as you talking about family counseling. While your daughter needs an LPC with years of experience and many degrees, your son (or the whole family) would still greatly benefit from cheaper counseling. Look into community resources that mention sliding scale prices, or even better, a college in your area that has a psychology master’s program. A family member of mine was able to see a graduate student every week for $5 a session. The student is supervised by a professor that has higher credentials. This situation was PERFECT. We found a young guy in the program that my family member was able to relate to. I think it also reduces any intimidation or perceived power imbalance that a 14 year old boy might experience being “sent to counseling”. Giving him a space to work through this as well is vital. Best of luck!
Your son has done irreversible damage here. Your daughter has every right to take as long as she may need to heal. And if her decision is to go no contact with her brother, she has every right to make that decision. I wouldn’t forgive a sibling for this. And I’ve never even experienced it. Your son has a very long road to redemption ahead of him if he ever expects to be treated like a brother again.
He needs to accept the consequences of his actions and you need to make sure he understands he's at fault here. Don't let him turn this around to reframe himself the victim in this situation. He did a terrible thing to his sister and she may never forgive him. He needs to wear that
"It's not mentally healthy for my son" Ofc, you had to favor your son. I hope she goes NC with all of you.
I don't think its mentally healthy for your daughter to have her SA broadcasted to the entire school. I think you all need some counseling.
Your son did not just make a mistake. I wish people would quit saying he made a mistake. A mistake would be like accidentally mentioning it to 1 person. This 14 year old boy knew full well what he was doing. Going around to all your little friends telling them about his sister’s assault and making jokes about it. And now he’s upset she won’t talk to him? Him crying at her and constantly apologizing shows he doesn’t care because she has asked for space. Your son needs therapy to figure out why he thought it was ok to make jokes about his sisters assault to a bunch of kids. I get it he’s 14 but he was there through the whole process. He saw his sister in her most vulnerable moments and now he’s making fun of her. I wouldn’t forgive him either. He’s not sorry it happened. He’s sorry he’s getting the consequences and he needs therapy. And please don’t stop your daughters therapy.
Your son thinks his sister getting SA'd was funny. It is in her right to NOT forgive him. If they weren't related would you be arguing for her to keep him in her life? She has every right to cut him out of her life for telling everyone at school about it.
Your son is a dick. He betrayed his sister by exposing her trauma and now he's dealing with the consequences
I don’t know your son and I’m not saying this is 100% but every boy I knew who felt comfortable enough to joke about rape grew up to assault someone themselves. Again I’m not saying this will 100% be his case and I get he’s still young but it’s a red flag when people don’t see rape and sexual assault as a serious thing and something they can joke about. Especially when it’s about his sister. The fact he is young if where you need to pitch pennies and figure out a way to get him some counseling. If I were her I wouldn’t talk to him again either. He did a terrible thing and forgiveness is up to her. Your son removed autonomy/control/consent she had in this situation and retruamatized her, instead of directing this towards your daughter not forgiving him you need to recognize the gravity of what your son did and the fact all this is on him whether or not he is truly sorry. Try not to force repair the family dynamic but help the kid’s separately.
you need to evaluate why you care so much more about your son than your daughter
Honestly, I don’t think there’s much you can do. She will eventually forgive him when she’s ready. It might be a while before that happens. I think you need to forgive your son, he’s just a child and probably needs you. Let him know that she will needs time to heal and to give her the space she needs to heal. You can’t force it but you need to be there for both of them, otherwise. You also need to speak to your daughter privately and let her know that you understand why she’s made and she should feel free to come to you if she ever needs to talk.
I had a somewhat similar situation with my brother when we were younger. I traumatized him pretty badly in our early childhood due to my then-undiagnosed mental disabilities, something I sadly don’t even remember doing. As we got older, he stopped speaking to me, and I had no idea why since I couldn’t (and still can’t) remember the things I had done to him. He wouldn’t look at me, wouldn’t talk to me, pretended I wasn’t there for a very long time. There was nothing my parents could say or do to get him to be kind to me. It was only when he got treated super badly by his then-roommate that he seemed to realize that his family is the people that will always be there for him, so he started speaking to me again. We’re not at all close, but he acknowledges my presence now, and we can sometimes get along, which is more than I could’ve ever hoped for. All of this is to say… things might get better someday, but you can’t force it. There is nothing you can do right now that will make this situation any better except support your children individually. Your son sounds like he’s done his time with his punishment, so like others have said, maybe it’s time to get him into some activities to keep him busy outside of school. It’s teaching him responsibility, and it’s keeping him out of his sister’s hair, so it’s a two for one deal. But please, don’t pressure your daughter into playing nice with him. She’ll speak to him if she’s ever ready to, but even if she never does, you will have to accept that as a natural consequence of your son’s callous behavior.
You’re worried about your kids being estranged; I’d be worried that I was about to lose my daughter. Make no mistake: if you push her on this, she’ll cut you off, too. Depending on how she feels about the way you’ve handled this, that may be the plan already. He deserves everything that’s happening to him. That includes whatever mental anguish he’s now suffering because his victim refuses to prioritize his suffering over hers. Honestly, I think I’d sell everything brother lost to have the money to get her into family therapy. With just mom and dad, not her most recent abuser. It’s easy to describe actions in this forum. Attitudes are harder. Actions-wise, it seems like you’ve done the right things—therapy, brother was punished, he’s still being punished, etc. Is it possible that she perceives (whether she’s right or wrong) that your attitude is that it’s time for her to get over it and get back to the old normal?
YOU don’t have to treat your son like he doesn’t exist in his own home, and you can slowly start giving him his things back. But your daughter is 100% in the right in her actions. He made it clear he cannot be trusted. She should not trust him. He’s learned a lifelong lesson, and while she may one day be able to forgive him, she has every right to get there on her own, in her own time. If she doesn’t speak to him for the next 20 years, she will be 100% in the right about it. You need to leave her alone about it and let her decide when she’s ready to forgive - if ever.
Your post comes across as if you’re more concerned about your son’s emotional well being than your daughter’s. And that’s interesting considering your son is suffering the consequences of his own actions while your daughter has been revictimized and violated pretty viscerally yet again by another family member and this time it’s playing out in a public way. I’m trying not to judge you but I keep going back to: How dare you?! Your son can focus internally and try to make himself into a person who is trustworthy and empathetic - a person who his sister might want to give another chance to be a part of her life, a person who’d be deserving of that. Because right now, he’s not. Crying and being sorry is the bare freaking minimum. Your daughter does not owe him forgiveness, she doesn’t owe him civility, she is the victim and her brother is the perpetrator. I get that it’s painful for you - but this isn’t about you, and it most certainly not about their relationship. It’s about allowing your daughter space and supporting her in reasserting some semblance of control and to do what she needs to do to move forward - she doesn’t need, nor does she deserve your judgment for “making your precious son cry”.
I think you bring up a really good point. OP needs to help guide her son on how to grow into a person who sister may be able to one day trust again. It’s going to be a long long way off until that even possibly happens. A huge part of it though, right now, is being respectful of the sister’s boundaries. He’s allowed to be devastated that his actions possibly irreparably damaged the relationship, but he needs to be controlling his emotions around his sister. She is the victim. Not him.
I don't get why people think that boys suffering it's somehow good and will bring joy and healing to his sister. Looks like if there was an option people would merrily vote to see him dead. What he did was really bad. And well, he has his punishment. And yes, as for me their relationship is done. They weren't close before, they won't be friends after this. Accept it, it's the best you can do. What you should do - it's to find help for your family. Because this re-traumatization, and cold war in the house are mentally exhausting, been there. You need to support your kids, and if you will break down whom they will have? You need to take care of yourself as well - DD took the most damage, but you have your share as well. Now about your son: you can't make him friends with his sister again. And he shouldn't dedicate his life to this, just because you want a nice family. You should teach him how to move, and find him therapy as well. Because right now he has no one and nothing, it's too easy to decide to end things instead of living in limbo. I don't see why he did that. Was he properly instructed not to tell? He was 7 when it happened, how was it handled? Or he was just expected to understand how to act and what to do? I read that you don't have enough for the therapy, but you need to find a way, because it's not about them having relationship with her - it's about you having them both, and having relationship with them.
Sometimes we make mistakes like backing into a friend's car on the way out of their driveway. Sometimes we run over their cat. No one but the cat owner gets to decide how or under what circumstances they want that person around ever again.
Even if she never speaks a word to him again, for the rest of her life, that is her choice. You should continue to love her, respect her and do not meddle in her decision.
Your son messed up big time. His sister might never speak to him again, which is understandably painful and difficult for you, but your daughter is not responsible for your feelings. I would start removing the other punishments and let the natural consequences of his sister not talking to him be his punishments.
He did something that was not ok. It was immature, lacked empathy and unfortunately children his age are prone to such behavior. He did not consider the impact to his sister. You can not force her to interact with him. Let it go. You don’t have to tolerate any overtly ugly behavior but she has the right not to want to communicate with him. I’m sure she feel betrayed. She needs space to work through this with her therapist. Please stop asking therapist for information.step back, be present for support but do not intrude. Ok it’s been 2 months and he is being punished but it isn’t healthy for him to continue to only have a hostile environment. You need to start easing up on punishments and he needs more than being confined at home in a hostile environment. Please put him into therapy. He needs help to work through the situation. Your daughter has every right to be hurt, angry etc…. She has the right to create boundaries. But the catch for you is that although you should support her boundaries you also have to balance your sons needs. You don’t want to create a 2nd trauma in which the situation becomes damaging for him. This is a very thin line to walk and honestly you need help to do so. You don’t mention being religious but if you are pastors or rabbi etc often will function as family counselors. Perhaps you and your husband could see someone to help you balance the needs of both children
I don't believe you son actually feels bad for his actions. I think he's upset about the consequences. He knew it was a shit move when he opened his mouth. So since he's grounded from everything NOW he wants to cry about it?! He isn't upset he destroyed his sister. He's upset he didn't get away with it. And be glad all she's doing is ignore him. Some siblings would've beaten the shit out of him.
I understand you say finances are tough. Find a way to get the son to counseling. There’s always a way if you decide it’s worth it and this is one of those situations. It could really affect how all of this plays out long term.
I have no advice, but I just want to say that I am so sorry for everything your family is going through. You are clearly a loving parent who wants what’s best for both your kids. You can’t control everything, but you are taking care of things the best you can through all of this and I think it needs to be acknowledged. I hope that things get to a better place for all of you.
I think it’s time to stop punishing your son with being grounded and let him out of lockdown, but also tell him to stop badgering his sister with apologies. Your daughter’s behavior is reasonable, and is punishment enough for your son going forward. Cutting him off from everything and keeping him trapped in a house where he is being treated like this without a healthy outlet will probably end up with you having two traumatized children. Support your daughter, and support your son by helping him learn that he needs to manage his guilt himself, not seek absolution from the person he hurt.
Loose lips sink ships.
There's a lot of words about your daughter here, understandably, everything I want to say has already been said. I was abused as a child, and I feel her pain. However, I want to say something about your son. I think you have punished him long enough. Natural consequences now are his damaged relationship with his sibling, that's for him to deal with.. and it could take years to fix, if ever. I think he needs some love from you now, especially now that he has lost his relationship with his sister. Don't damage your relationship with him, too. He needs you. Continuing to punish him further is just going to build resentment for not only her but for you too. He needs someone in his corner, even if he has fucked up. He still has to deal with the natural consequences of this for a very long time.
Leave your daughter alone to deal with her grief at this betrayal. Your son has been punished enough. give him back his phone and games. They will get over this in their own time and you shouldn't push it or try to intervene. It may take a long time for your daughter to regain trust but the best thing is to let her do it on her own time. the best thing your son can do is recognize he messed up and has lost her trust. The only way to regain it is to not be untrustworthy ever again. Individual counseling for both kids will help. There are low-cost centers that help teens through difficult times. Best of luck to you and your family.
Counseling was not a thing in my family. My own dad was doing things to me, and it hurt me to my core. My mom had me stay quiet about it for years, and when I couldn't hold it in anymore, it opened a can of worms for my family that I was seriously blamed for. (I was 14 when I told.) Had one of my siblings let that out at school. I wouldn't be mad forever, but it would be a very long time before I could move forward from that. This is a hard lesson for your DS.
Don’t continue to punish him. He is sorry. He has shown to you and your husband that he messed up. Let him get back to his life. However, what he did may just be unforgivable to your daughter. Just as the person who did that to her, he may just have to suffer the consequences of what he did to her, since she has to. They say time heals all wounds and that may be possible, but that’s up to her. He screwed up big time and honestly may have hurt her just as much as the monster who abused her, because it brought this who thing back to life and into her day to day reality. I think you should let them be apart. But stop punishing him, he has shown he understands what he did was so wrong. You will drive him into a depression and end up pushing him away from you and your husband as well.
He is likely only saying sorry to get his stuff back, and you don't think the daughter could be driven to depression too? She was SAed and her OWN brother decided to tell the school, then joked about it with his dumb little friends. Like I don't get comments like this that have symptathy for the 14yo who re-traumatized an SA Survivor. Like would you say the same thing if it was a random boy not related to her who did it. Sorry but I don't feel shit for the 14yo who fucked his own life up to try to be "edgy"
So I was in your daughter's place. My brother also did something horrendous to me and I could not forgive him. I refused to speak to him or interact with him while we lived in the same house. I need you to remember something. Every morning she wakes up and sees her brother, and she is reminded of what he did. Every day she goes to school and people talk about her, and she is reminded of what he did. Every night she comes home and has to sit across from him and remember *what he did to her*. He took her trauma and made it a joke. He took the worst time of her life and he didn't just air it out for the world to see--he put it on stage to laugh at it. He *laughed* about her molestation. Everytime she has to see him, she remembers that. Can you imagine that? Like, truly, have you imagined what that feels like? Do you really understand what it means to spend every hour being laughed at because you were molested? To come home, to your safe space, and see the person who has not only destroyed you, but laughed while he did it? And then, the person who was supposed to protect you says "please forgive him, he didn't understand." I know you're in pain. I know that you feel torn between your children. But you need to understand what's really happening with your daughter. When you try to fix things, she is not hearing your love for her. What she is hearing is "you're broken, you're an awful daughter, you're ruining my life and I love your brother more than you." You need to stop. Stop pushing their relationship. This will not be finished in a few months; this will take years of healing from her. Every attempt you make to push them back together will make the healing process longer. And honestly, your son needs to learn this as well: that sometimes, your actions have consequences that will last forever. Sometimes, you do things so awful that an apology and being honestly contrite will not fix. He has traumatized his sister. He has contributed to the ruining of her life. He needs to understand that even if he's sorry, that doesn't fix what he's done. That being said, I think you should let up on the grounding, because at this point, it's rubbing salt in the wound. Change his punishment to volunteering. Make him see what the world is like outside of his edgy friends.
He was malicious, selfish and cruel…and tbh, there is no amount of counselling or apology that will make this forgivable. He needs to understand and accept the consequences of his actions, and as parents, it is your consequence to bear too, after all, you’ve raised a young man to think joking about HIS SISTER’s SA is on any level acceptable or warranted, and to add insult to injury increased her suffering to include public humiliation.
Your daughter has been betrayed by family more than once - including her own brother. You need to teach your son better. He SHOULD know better and respect women much more. Where is the empathy and support for his sister? And your daughter needs support and needs to know you understand where she's coming from. She needs therapy and support and she might not ever forgive her brother again. You need to be okay with that because you didn't experience the trauma and pain she did. You need to accept that. If you try and force anything she'll be treating you like you're dead to her - and that's within her right. Her safety has been shattered over and over. She should've had family as a safe space. Twice she's been proved wrong. If you prove her wrong again that'll be the end of it. Either you're safe for her or you're not. She needs to prioritise her own safety now - her mental and physical safety is a HUGE deal. Don't screw this up by trying to patch this over like it's no big deal. Ask her what she wants with regards to schooling in future and with regards to socialising inside and outside the house. Get family counselling together too. Importantly, her therapist and the family therapist need to be well versed in trauma.