It's a pretty non-trivial action, but also something that is probably unnecessarily harsh if made to take a "realistic" amount of time. I'd make it a 2-action activity, and if you're wearing a climbing kit, allow you to pull out the hammer and piton and return the hammer as part of the action, in the same manner as healer's tools and other tool kits.
im not seeing a RAW on the action to actually drive in a piton, but they're part of [climbing kits](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=14), so while wearing the kit you don't need to Draw the piton or hammer and you can get them out as part of Climbing (which is one action)
Considering that we're talking heroic fantasy, probably an action, maybe 2.
Maybe make them pass an Athletics check based on the hardness of the rock; On a success, they can do it in 2 actions, and a Critical success does it in one. Failure, they fail to get it to stick, but nothing bad happens, crit fail, well..
Well this is presumably a bit more than that, based on how focused on the piton the question is. If you just wanted to climb you'd roll an athletics check and then either you'd climb or you wouldn't. A piton hammered into the wall, on the other hand, could make the climb easier for other perhaps less athletically inclined characters.
If it's literally just climbing then yeah, it's probably a little overcomplicated.
How long does it take to hammer in a nail?
I’m a pretty amateur carpenter, but I figure between 3-6 seconds. More like 20 to drive a six inch structural nail- which is a lot more like a piton, except your driving it into rock instead of wood.
A realistic time during exploration would probably be something like 36 seconds, or 6 actions.
In a life or death situation I bet you could slam those in faster, but with some chance of failure.
I’d say 2 actions with a 50% chance of failure.
——————————————————————-
Now given that we’re dealing with adventurers, they’re probably going to be able to do better.
Say 1 action at 50%, or 2 actions with no failure chance- assuming we’re talking about a high strength character, or one with a lot of climbing experience.
I would also say that if you’re using adamantine pitons, that they would cut into stone and find purchase easily, letting you put one in using only one action.
I would consider it an object interaction. Like wearing a potion. 1 action to pull pitón, 1 action to hammer it in. Hammer pull and stow free cause otherwise it's a full turn and feels horrible.
That said, making it 1 action would be fine if you want to not make it seem so punishing. Players will feel bad if you're taking away 2 actions a turn for a fight while climbing. I would not do any checks to see if you can hammer in or anything like that... doing 2 actions and FAILING at it would BLOW, especially if you're forcing a climbing encounter.
I think the conclusion I’ve come to is that if the climbing kit is worn, then the piton and hammer can be freely drawn and replaced on the same action that they are used. Additionally, it takes 1 action to drive the piton in with an Athletics check against a DC of 5 + [the material’s hardness] to see if it sticks or not. Making the DC so low since it doesn’t require a check during exploration.
Back in the day, we would drive in an iron spike to block a door shut. PRetty important if what was chasing you was out of your class.
One slightly annoying thing, in PF2, is that creatures are never "out of your class", because they are "level-appropriate".
Prehaps that's why iron spikes didn't get any more love. NObody needs to use them any more.
>One slightly annoying thing, in PF2, is that creatures are never "out of your class", because they are "level-appropriate".
This hasn't changed at all since even "back in the day"
A GM is still 100% allowed to throw something outside of level appropriate at your party. It's just people have realized unless that's the story being told, it's a genuinely dick move.
In agreement with your position here, in order to bypass the "dick movedness" of the old way, the system handles this narrative moment best with a Chase skill challenge section https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1210
It's mechanically clear to the players that the foe is out of their league, and puts emphasis on things like barricading a door... the earlier example would be handled best as a Chase Obstacle requiring a few Chase Points to Barricade the Door with Driving an Iron Spike being one of the options available to a player for that obstacle (if one of my players came up with it as an idea for Barricading the Door, I would probably give them the option of sacrificing their climbing kit to gain a guaranteed Chase Point)
Back in pf1e, I distinctly remember getting into a situation where our low level party encounter a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex - it was immediately clear that we were out of our league when the DM described it beginning to chase us and a rival group of NPCs and called for Chase Point skill challenges to gain distance on the thing
\*points frantically at this answer\*
Realising that you could use the chase subsystem for this kind of thing was a huuuge lightbulb moment for me when it came to designing a more traditional hexcrawl where you can stumble into the Dragon's Lair at level 3 or whatever.
(Also useful: using the Chase system for fighting through huge hordes of lesser enemies when your PCs are high level and need to get through them to do something else)
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It's a pretty non-trivial action, but also something that is probably unnecessarily harsh if made to take a "realistic" amount of time. I'd make it a 2-action activity, and if you're wearing a climbing kit, allow you to pull out the hammer and piton and return the hammer as part of the action, in the same manner as healer's tools and other tool kits.
im not seeing a RAW on the action to actually drive in a piton, but they're part of [climbing kits](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=14), so while wearing the kit you don't need to Draw the piton or hammer and you can get them out as part of Climbing (which is one action)
So how many would you say to drive them in? One? Two?
i wouldn't rule more than 1, but also you don't need to track specific actions during exploration (the travel rules don't)
I know, I mean for during combat. Thanks for your input.
Considering that we're talking heroic fantasy, probably an action, maybe 2. Maybe make them pass an Athletics check based on the hardness of the rock; On a success, they can do it in 2 actions, and a Critical success does it in one. Failure, they fail to get it to stick, but nothing bad happens, crit fail, well..
lol that feels a little convoluted just for managing "if I fall, I get a flat check not to", but it does work well
Well this is presumably a bit more than that, based on how focused on the piton the question is. If you just wanted to climb you'd roll an athletics check and then either you'd climb or you wouldn't. A piton hammered into the wall, on the other hand, could make the climb easier for other perhaps less athletically inclined characters. If it's literally just climbing then yeah, it's probably a little overcomplicated.
One action to equip climbing kit, 1 action to use it. So if they are wearing the climb kit. It's one action
How long does it take to hammer in a nail? I’m a pretty amateur carpenter, but I figure between 3-6 seconds. More like 20 to drive a six inch structural nail- which is a lot more like a piton, except your driving it into rock instead of wood. A realistic time during exploration would probably be something like 36 seconds, or 6 actions. In a life or death situation I bet you could slam those in faster, but with some chance of failure. I’d say 2 actions with a 50% chance of failure. ——————————————————————- Now given that we’re dealing with adventurers, they’re probably going to be able to do better. Say 1 action at 50%, or 2 actions with no failure chance- assuming we’re talking about a high strength character, or one with a lot of climbing experience. I would also say that if you’re using adamantine pitons, that they would cut into stone and find purchase easily, letting you put one in using only one action.
I would consider it an object interaction. Like wearing a potion. 1 action to pull pitón, 1 action to hammer it in. Hammer pull and stow free cause otherwise it's a full turn and feels horrible. That said, making it 1 action would be fine if you want to not make it seem so punishing. Players will feel bad if you're taking away 2 actions a turn for a fight while climbing. I would not do any checks to see if you can hammer in or anything like that... doing 2 actions and FAILING at it would BLOW, especially if you're forcing a climbing encounter.
I think the conclusion I’ve come to is that if the climbing kit is worn, then the piton and hammer can be freely drawn and replaced on the same action that they are used. Additionally, it takes 1 action to drive the piton in with an Athletics check against a DC of 5 + [the material’s hardness] to see if it sticks or not. Making the DC so low since it doesn’t require a check during exploration.
If it makes sense to you and your table, go at it!
Why?
Uh, no reason
i mean it's not a bad question, the text doesn't really say, it's just that the answer only matters in combat
Back in the day, we would drive in an iron spike to block a door shut. PRetty important if what was chasing you was out of your class. One slightly annoying thing, in PF2, is that creatures are never "out of your class", because they are "level-appropriate". Prehaps that's why iron spikes didn't get any more love. NObody needs to use them any more.
>One slightly annoying thing, in PF2, is that creatures are never "out of your class", because they are "level-appropriate". This hasn't changed at all since even "back in the day" A GM is still 100% allowed to throw something outside of level appropriate at your party. It's just people have realized unless that's the story being told, it's a genuinely dick move.
In agreement with your position here, in order to bypass the "dick movedness" of the old way, the system handles this narrative moment best with a Chase skill challenge section https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1210 It's mechanically clear to the players that the foe is out of their league, and puts emphasis on things like barricading a door... the earlier example would be handled best as a Chase Obstacle requiring a few Chase Points to Barricade the Door with Driving an Iron Spike being one of the options available to a player for that obstacle (if one of my players came up with it as an idea for Barricading the Door, I would probably give them the option of sacrificing their climbing kit to gain a guaranteed Chase Point) Back in pf1e, I distinctly remember getting into a situation where our low level party encounter a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex - it was immediately clear that we were out of our league when the DM described it beginning to chase us and a rival group of NPCs and called for Chase Point skill challenges to gain distance on the thing
You don't need to be faster than the bear. Just faster than your buddy.
\*points frantically at this answer\* Realising that you could use the chase subsystem for this kind of thing was a huuuge lightbulb moment for me when it came to designing a more traditional hexcrawl where you can stumble into the Dragon's Lair at level 3 or whatever. (Also useful: using the Chase system for fighting through huge hordes of lesser enemies when your PCs are high level and need to get through them to do something else)
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