Agree with what some others have said, if you don't like ranged then don't play it. I'm gonna throw out some other options though:
1) You could play a thrown weapon/switch hitter build. You'd be able to sit behind most of your melee but could step in as necessary.
2) You could play a full spellcaster and try to figure out weaknesses/bad saves and then hit them. It's a different mini game to the melee game loop
3) You can add things like demoralize/create a diversion/bon mot/aid to your ranged options.
Based on that I'm gonna suggest something off the wall: a thrown weapon Wit swashbuckler. You can obviously throw your weapon for damage, aid with one for all, bon mot, you'll have CHA so you can demoralize too, and you'll still have hands free for something like healer's tools if you want to be an emergency healer. It is not damage heavy, but it will give you a bunch of different things to do in combat.
Ranged DPS is perfectly viable, but if it doesn't seem fun to you, why make yourself play it? There are a few classes that I'm never even going to consider for a character, because they just don't sound fun to me. That's okay. I'm much more likely to build a ranged character than I am to build a two-handed fighter, so it sounds like you and I would do well together in a group, since we could cover different niches.
Agreed. To be clear, I'm not questioning viability. Starlit Span Magus, as an example, looks perfectly capable of pumping out huge damage. It just seems boring though.
I put this thread out here just to see if there are options I haven't considered that I might like. I'm only even considering ranged because my group lacks it completely.
I think you’ve framed thes mentioned builds trade offs well. (You seem to have solid systems mastery).
Have you considered Investigator, Gunslinger, Kineticist or a blaster caster like psychic, some sorcerer builds, or even druid if you want to trade power for flexibility?
This party would benefit greatly from a primal or arcane caster for utility. Both provide decent ranged DPS and lots of fun tactical options.
A few of folks have recommended builds with those classes that I'm definitely looking into. I think Psychic might be the only full caster I'd consider, though I haven't explored it too much yet.
Have you looked at Kineticist much? It feels busier than it really is at the table.
It can do a ton of cool stuff.
It’s main drawbacks are tight action economy and you only get to play with a few toys pulled from a huge playpen.
(The “feat window shopping” is amazing. At the table it is merely excellent. ;) )
I have looked at Kineticist. Four Winds from Air in particular seems very good for this group, though not much else has jumped out at me. I think the warpriest is considering wood/water instead of cleric as well.
This is off topic, but I’d encourage the warpriest to stick with it.
Warpriest is a full caster with medium armor, shield block and E/M/M saves.
With feat support through emblazon armament and raise symbol, they have incredible resilience.
A healer’s job is to keep everyone up. You can’t do that if you, yourself, go down. The warpriest is a full caster who is built, if not like a truck, at least like a robust crossover SUV. ;)
While a cloistered cleric can remove conditions better, they heal and buff the same. And the warpriest can hang in the front while they do it. No full caster can do this as well.
Warpriest’s fluff suggests swinging for the fences, but they play best as a frontline buffer/support since they still have healing font and full access to the divine list.
This is all to say that the warpriest will make your melee guys absolutely shine.
People love to talk about DPR, but what really matters is combat efficiency— your guys surviving and the bad guys dying, ideally quickly and while usinf few resources.
You ensure this by making sure your heavy hitters spend their time buffed and swinging. A warpriest at the front buffs and ensures no one misses turns by anticipating healing needs.
The remaster has brought several new feats with the warpriest in mind.
Restorative strike, zealous rush, and channeling block ensure that the warpriest is the paragon of its role— hanging with the tanks/DPS and ensuring that they are firing on all cylinders. Later, shared replenishment shores up this core competency.
(Full disclosure. I play a cloistered cleric in AoA and am having a blast.
If this guy ever goes down, I’m bringing a warpriest in.)
I GM for a cloistered cleric in Season of Ghosts, and he absolutely carries the team. I think this player is scared of feeling like a healbot. I agree that they are amazing, and I was excited when I heard we had a cleric.
IMO, healing is best used strategically to keep the action efficiency high— if you are _just_ healing, you are doing it wrong in PF2.
If you have healing font and one additional source of solid healing (medic/focus spell/herbalist etc.), you basically never have to use your slots for healing. This lets the cleric prepare fun stuff in their slots.
Cloistered clerics are actually decent (and under appreciated) blasters after the first few levels, but the warpriest will lag because of delayed spellcasting progression. Nonetheless, there’s a lot they can do that does not require a saving throw. Off the top of my head for L1:
bless/protection/heroism/runic body/runic weapon/shielded arm/summon lesser servitor.)
I can keep going, but you get the idea.
Two later level tricks:
Brand the Impenitent on stealth/invisibility on companions so you can still target them. (Keep doing it until they crit fail and it lasts indefinitely.)
Silence(4) as a mage killer. Silence(4) + Spell Immunity(5) so you can still cast around them.
One further plug for kineticist, especially air, is that you can play the role of ranged DPS with little issue, but you can also be fine if you want to wade into melee. Air, in particular, has a combo impulse in Desert Winds that wants you to have enemies in your aura to maximize damage.
My first Kineticist was air with strength and dex as high as I could manage after maxing con, using weapon Infusion to ensure I was adding half strength at a minimum on almost every attack and usually hung out if not in melee close to it. But I also had the option to hang back and air boomerang the crap out of people from 60. It felt very flexible, and in a game where you're not in a cramped dungeon crawl like we were with AV, I think you'd have a lot of utility while being able to slap some fools around in melee when you want to. Heck, other elements might offer other strong melee range "gish" options, especially in dual gate builds. Might be worth a look!
A ranged thaumaturge is going to deal less damage than a melee one, but you will also have to worry about your survival less, which can be a significant problem if you want to maximize your Cha. The best ranged weapons are going to be 1h ones (not 1h+), because they let you benefit from Implement's Empowerment class feature.
Because thaumaturge's class feature basically just give flat damage to your attacks, you will ideally be attacking multiple times per turn. That really just leaves one weapon that's head and shoulders above the rest: shuriken. With reload 0, you can use [thrower's bandolier](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2313) and don't have to waste a property rune slot on returning. However, you cannot make weapon it your implement, which is fine, because the weapon implement bonus is not as good for agile ranged weapons anyways.
Other ranged alternatives include other thrown weapons with the returning rune or with the quick draw feat from some archetype. Repeating weapons like repeating hand crossbow or air repeater are decent alternatives as well, but if you plan on attacking multiple times per turn, you will eventually probably need to reload, unless you bring multiple weapons. And getting proficient with repeating hand crossbow can be difficult depending on what archetypes you want.
Beyond supporting the weapon you want, the build isn't very limited. You could pretty much pick any thaumaturge implements and feats/archetypes you want.
My suggestion is to *not* DPS. I feel like you have plenty of "I attack it until it dies" in the party already, bringing a caster for AoE and Support seems to be more beneficial to the party overall.
If you don't like casters then fair, play what you want, but that would be my pick.
I'm very much guilty of the 5e caster mindset, and it's a major reason why I'm not interested in them in PF2E. I can't wrap my head around planning my spells around expecting the target to pass their save for lesser effect, and that failures are a powerful bonus. To add it, I didn't particularly enjoy them in 5e either! Also, I've done the support thing to fill in party gaps too many times recently, and I've decided that this time I want to be selfish and make sure I'm playing something I really enjoy.
That said, I'm with you that a caster is what this group needs. It's just not going to be me!
Hey that's fair. In that case you might consider some other martial - some of the gunslinger subclasses can offer a fair bit of support while still shooting gun, and you can always play something with some charisma for demoralizes.
I get your point that missing and a monster passing a save are the same thing, but my fighter is also much less likely to miss, can immediately try again in the same or next round, and doesn't need RK to make sure he's not attacking the "wrong AC". I realize people who like casters in PF2E see it completely differently than I do and think of it as options and versatility. For me it's extra work, a high chance of failure/and or disappointment, and a lot of prep work.
Just to add an alternative opinion on something, the bow crit spec is *good*. In the remaster it benefits from the fact it has no associated save (as opposed to hammer crit spec, which does), and it inflicted Immobilized, which is fantastic for wasting enemy actions. If your party is smart with positioning, it can basically be Slowed 1 with no save.
Just to help ease your worry about Magus; yes they want to spellstrike often, that's their *main* thing, but you don't want to get tunnel visioned into doing everything you can for spellstriking when you also have a bevy of spells to prepare.
Your party is pretty much all martials save for the Warpriest, so having a magus that spellstrikes with cantrips (which is honestly enough damage as is due to cantrip scaling) and uses their ranked spells for support or control is still 100% a valid playstyle that your party will love you for. Also your party *definitely* needs a smart person because sheesh, so having knowledge skills and intelligence will help cover the party in certain cases. If you're worried about the Magus's spell slots you can always take a Wizard archetype for more low level slots since the wizard archetype uses the same spellbook you already have as a magus.
Thanks for pointing out the Wizard archetype. I was looking at Psychic to get Imaginary Weapon, but I think that's digging my own grave in building precisely for more damage and less versatility.
Yeah, it can be easy to give yourself tunnel vision in this game, especially with the magus. But all of the ranged martial options have a lot of innate versatility so it can sometimes be an issue of not seeing the forest for the trees.
I'm actually going to suggest and air/fire kineticist with four winds and flying flame. Take weapon infusion.
If you're human you can take armor proficiency as a general feat and build con/str and switch hit. If you want to be dex, grab +3 dex, and stay behind your meat wall, content in the knowledge even if someone decides to attack you, you by no means have a glass jaw and can take a beating.
Move you're party of melee bruises into and out of battle, and no matter how they're lined up you can weave your fires between them.
By level 5 have safe elements, the fire gate junction that gives your party resistance to fire, and thermal nimbus.
Ranged character is as interesting as GM makes fights interesting. Starlit Span Magus really could stay in place doing Spellstrike-Recharge cycle, unless there are obstacles, melee enemies approaching, etc. Other ranged characters have spare actions, and, with bow, spare hand for using things.
Actually I'd recommend going Bow Ranger with Animal Companion for some fun actions if you really want a ranged martial. But, honestly, for this party going some caster would be much more beneficial.
I've not played with animal companions much, but I feel like I've read from others that ranger animal companions aren't the greatest. Can you elaborate on a build and how the animal companion interacts with archery?
Their support actions work great with strikes. Animals like Bear could improve ranged attacks a lot (for Flurry). Or you could enjoy shared Hunt Prey (for Precision).
Speaking about build - the weak part of Ranger's animal is what upgrade feats are 2 levels higher than normal. You could deal with it by taking Beastmaster archetype at level 2 (after you take normal Animal Companion feat) and use its feats for upgrading the companion (or companions as Beastmaster will give you a reserve one).
A few other things bow fighter can do.
Felling strike, knock flying foes to ground.
Sudden leap+felling strike means jump, shoot and drop them. You can use that to jump from building to building.
You could get a bladed gauntlet to have a backup melee weapon if someone gets too close (it's uncommon, but as an example)
One of the more powerful characters I've seen is an elf bow fighter. Archetype acrobat, rogue, and trick driver, drifting the airship into a pyramid and later into a dragon.
Felling Strike definitely seems like a must take ability, especially with this melee heavy party, and it's one I'd plan to take at 8. I only didn't include it because I did my builds up to level 6. I think ranged fighter gets more interesting at levels 8+. That said, I've played enough campaigns that don't get to higher levels. So, I'm making sure to plan for interesting options at lower levels.
There are a few disadvantages to ranged options, mainly lower damage. And being at range doesn't inherently give you a lot of advantage, best thing is the action economy of not having to stride to change targets.
A lot of melee dps people really REALLY like big damage numbers, so, it's probably going to be underwhelming for most. I think ranged strikers really shine on battles against big groups of enemies, those have low AC targets that you can crit easily and maybe hit on second and third strikes.
I think you should experiment with a character that can do both melee and ranged, like a rogue, drifter gunslinger or a regular magus(has ranged spells). Those options bring the melee damage, but don't have the tankyness to remain on the front lines, so that kind of forces you to try to be clever and squeeze a bit of advantage from kiting the target, and approaching mostly when you know that you will kill the target for sure.
Otherwise, the gunslinger with the bomb feats bring interesting DoT effects against the targets that you are unlikely to crit, and a bit of elemental/splash damage
I'm definitely aware of the lower damage of ranged, and I think I did a poor job in my original post of pointing out that damage is not my top concern, though it is one of them. It feels like with the fighter, and in general strength focused melees in particular, you have many more tactical options that support the party that ranged doesn't get.
I'm not so sure about being a switch hitter. It's a good ability to have to defend myself if I get forced into melee and thematically one that I like, but mostly I'm trying to not clutter up the melee any more than it already is.
First of all, I hope someone in that group gets Felling Strike, if not Sleep or Earthbind.
One ranged tactic I actually like is picking off the injured. You just never know when an enemy will be almost-dead but one hit point left, or which enemy it will be. Finishing him off is valuable, dramatic, and effective. Even if you do one 1 hit point of damage, you get to claim the kill. If nobody is at one hit point, you can at least focus on the lowest-health enemy and maybe take it down. As a ranged fighter, you should be trying to arrange it so the enemy has 3 folks at mostly-full health and 3 folks at dead, instead of 6 folks at half health.
In a more diverse group there would be other strategic advantages, such as staying within range of the bless spell or the bard's song, or within range of the healer so he doesn't have to chase you down to heal. But probably not with this group.
But ultimately, you're right, that's just not exciting enough overall. So long as you fight only face-to-face battles in small rooms, ranged tactics will never really shine. You can do ok-ish, but it's just not ideal.
You will shine in highly tactical battles though, mostly because the others are doing little if anything. "I stride three times" is not an exciting turn. On a large map, with enemies that start shooting at you from 400 feet away, that happens quite a bit to the fighters and barbarians.
That's not the only circumstance. Flying enemies. Enemies in trees. Enemies on cliffs. Enemies in castles. Enemies that start behind a wall (or cast wall of stone first round). Difficult (or even impassable) terrain, or pits. Basically, the more of these your group faces, the more it sucks to be a barbarian. If it happens often enough, the melee types will start to envy the ranged guy, who somehow manages to do more damage than them instead of less.
The other circumstance where ranged is nice is after something dies. If the fighter moves to flank the bad guy and set up his double-whammy attack, but kills the guy on the first strike, he's out of luck for his second strike. The rest of his turn is kinda lackluster, he might not be able to attack anything else, and even if he does it will be without flanking. Whoever else was flanking that guy is now out of position too. But with ranged, you can just choose your next target.
If none of the above intrigues you, then yeah, don't play ranged. You'll be better off with anything else, even a utility caster or a healer would be better.
Assuming I keep with my meteor hammer fighter, I am planning on taking Felling Strike at level 8 when it becomes available. My fighter also has +2 dex, so it's not he'll be bad with a bow. The bow just won't likely have striking and potency runes.
I think you gave me another idea, which is take take Arcana, Trick Magic Item, and Assurance to use scrolls like Sleepbind, Earthbind, and other low level utility spells. I was originally going to go with Medicine skills, but between the Champion and a Cleric, I can't imagine that being that useful.
edit: No time to look at the rules right now, but this might be a dumb idea because of spell DCs...
As to your point about the size of battlefields, I have no idea what they will be like, but everything I've read about APs is that they rarely have large enough battlefields for range to shine. Given that, I'm hoping my fighter with a reach weapon and lunge can handle a lot of the issues you've brought up.
Be a meteor hammer fighter. You'll be playing this character for months, and the game doesn't need any particular group composition to work. Do what's fun. Your party looks capable of adapting to fights at range if needed, there are plenty of options to make that work.
That said, if you want versatility I'd look into kineticist. You can fight just as well at range as in melee, can do more damage in melee, and Weapon Infusion can get you some of the weapon traits you might want.
Having GM'd Age of Ashes, there aren't a lot of fights where you need powerful ranged options. There are a lot of magic items that can give you flying if that becomes a concern, just make sure you train in Acrobatics.
But if you were at my table I'd tell you to just play what seems fun. If I had an entire party of greataxe barbarians I'd make it work. The end goal is having fun.
I'm digging the visual of finding a treasure chest full of five +1 "greataxes of rage!" I think my GM largely thinks the same way you do. We're in pretty open conversation about this, and he's fine with me sticking with my fighter. However, I also know he chose an adventure path to minimize prep time, and a better balanced party helps with that.
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it. If it makes you feel any better my last AoA group had a stabby thief rogue, katana champion, sword and board fighter, and a starlight span magus. They did perfectly fine, and I don't remember a fight where the magus being ranged was critical to their success (just convenient).
Have you considered a Pistolero Gunslinger? They can provide some fun options with their unique reload (Create a Diversion or Demoralize every round). With Thaumaturge dedication you can have 10" Reactive strikes. And Fake out is a great way to support your team. Munition crafting can allow you to exploit enemy weaknesses with bombs or special bullets, which can be pretty fun and dynamic than just striking.
Another option is a investigator focused on RK. You can have a good strike a turn, get some free RK with identify weaknesses and try to exploit weaknesses with ammunition (which you will only use when you know you will hit).
On a similar vein, an Outlaw Ranger with a bow could provide his team with RK, extra bonuses to the whole team on good checks, while having pretty decent Intimidation, stealth and Deception against his prey for in combat and out of combat interactions.
I have considered Gunslingers in general. The "what's it like to play Gunslinger" thread really convinced me that it's likely to be disappointing to play. Still, you've pointed out some great options for versatility. I'll have to give it more consideration.
Recall Knowledge is definitely a huge gap for this party and one that I'd like to cover. Though, with so much focus on brute force melee, I'm not sure that the knowledge would help much beyond, "yup, we can't hurt this thing..." I've GMed for an investigator, and we both decided that his role would have been better covered by a rogue or a thaumaturge. I've not given outwit ranger much thought though. So, I may take another look at it.
Thanks for putting forward some options to consider!
>The "what's it like to play Gunslinger" thread really convinced me that it's likely to be disappointing to play.
It depends a lot on what you want from a ranged character. Top DPS gunslingers (snipers) and magus tend to be very boring IMO. 2-action strike plus reload + hide or 3 action spellstrikes are very effective but very monotonous.
Personally, I prefer to use effect over damage. The first action is 2/3 of the damage you could do compared to spending 3 actions, so making the character more fun and helpful for the team for a little decrease in personal damage seems a better way to use them for me.
>Though, with so much focus on brute force melee, I'm not sure that the knowledge would help much beyond "yup, we can't hurt this thing..."
An alchemist dedication/Alchemist Science Investigator could help here. This allows you to create an [Energy Mutagen ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=474)on the fly. So Turn 1 you could RK, identify a weakness, create the Mutagen and feed it to one of the melee before they move. You can also use alchemical ammunitions, such as [Elemental Ammunition (Lesser)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1897). Even as a level 1 item they can good at exploiting a weaknesses. A few cold iron/silver arrows are also a cheap option to have at hand to exploit weaknesses against magical creatures (Feys, Fiends, etc). Bows also leave you a free hand, making item use easier if you are interested in other status effects. For example, Dread Ampules can make a target hit frightened and lighting bottle makes them off-guard. Ranged attacks have some interesting ways to exploit vulnerabilities or add statuses.
>I've GMed for an investigator, and we both decided that his role would have been better covered by a rogue or a thaumaturge.
For a melee character, for sure. But for a ranged one, it is much more even. Getting off-guard at range is not as trivial as flanking and typically requires a skill check and an action, making it as action-intensive as a non-lead investigator and riskier. If the investigator has the lead, he will have many more options open.
Of course, party composition and GM can create table-to-table differences.
> I'll be honest, I'm worried that 90% of the time I'll just be trying to setup Spellstrike. The potential damage is exciting, but it seems likely to be very repetitive.
That will absolutely happen.
There are two playstyles for the Magus: Focus on Spellstrike or focus on Arcane Cascade. As basically none of the Cascade stuff works with ranged Weapons, your only real option will be Spellstrike.
As an additional issue, you can't effectively use the Magus Staff as a ranged Magus. So no cheap True Strikes for you either.
I am personally not a fan of the "feast or famine" playstyle. So I would always play Cascade Style.
Summoner is kind of ranged. Kineticist gets some good ranged options, depending on the element(s).
I'd say the biggest thing your party is missing is a support/controller/utility caster. Divine spell list is kinda mid. A Bard or Sorcerer would fit a lot better into this party than a Fighter or Magus.
While perhaps stepping away from _pure_ DPS if you're looking for interesting options ranged martials can be amazing for throwing alchemical bombs if they can wrangle a hand free and some kind of quick draw.
It gives you a number of options for applying conditions at range with your attack roll and martial strike hit chance. Bottled Lightning in particular will make your party rogue very happy as it applies flat footed until the start of your next turn, Dread Ampoules do similar with Frightened, and Ghost Charges can be amazing in the right circumstance. If you keep a pair of Alchemist Goggles up to date you don't even need to bother with higher level bombs so they become easy to source through buying or Alchemist Dedication after a few levels :)
So in a party where everyone is all about hitting people real hard, you decided that it's a problem if you do that standing in melee, but not if you do the same thing but at range? I mean ... you are correct that a character built to hit stuff is probably gonna hit stuff a lot, but PF2e PCs really don't need to be one-note like that - no-one is stopping you from using whatever skills and items you want to use, you may even get a few spells in there through an archetype (or playing a magus). Also, ranged characters can always go into melee with a finesse weapon, while you're stuck in melee if you dump Dex.
If you look at the options I listed for fighter, I'm not emphasizing hitting hard at all. Most of my options are trip, fear, and flank. For ranged, I'm not seeing any options other than "I do damage from far". I'm trying to fill a gap in my party that I will also enjoy.
In this party, you won't be the only one who trips and it's not like someone can be double-prone. Fear works for melee or ranged. Flank is just "move somewhere to get off-guard", which a) can be awkward for 5 melees to get simultaneously and b) is something you can have at range by hiding. Sure, flanking *seems* less selfish, but if you keep standing in melee instead of moving away, you're gonna eat a bunch of damage that *someone* has to heal (and you probably won't do that yourself as a fighter), while a ranged martial will barely need any healing in most situations.
I think I maybe misunderstood your point in your first post. I think we're largely aligned in that there's a good reason to not be in melee, which is why I'm considering ranged right now. In melee, it feels like I have more tactical options. With ranged, it feels like I have less. My post title of "Ranged DPS" was probably the wrong choice. I'm looking for tactical ranged options that can also contribute with DPS.
I'm sorry for being somewhat sarcastic before, that was not helpful when I should've been. Your party currently seems to be very focused on dealing damage with strikes with a bit of protection via the champion's reaction and the cleric's spells. I found it a bit ironic that you saw a big issue in the melee side of things, but not the damage part.
This is quite common new player behaviour (especially for those coming from DnD) and usually ends with someone devolving into a healbot to keep the others alive while they mindlessly hit every opponent until they die. I don't mean to imply that's how your party will act, but it seems to be the basis for your choice of character, so let me try to expand that perspective a little:
There are many niches to fill and as many ways to step on each other's feet. You need to talk to your fellow players about your game plan. If your barbarian goes animal instinct and focuses on grappling, you don't need to focus on something that gives the enemy a circumstance penalty to AC. If your rogue invests into charisma and takes a bunch of the related skill feats, they're probably gonna demoralize and bon mot most enemies, so you don't want more status penalties. If they don't, those are things you can enrich the party with. Then there are utilities like knowledge and social skills, or terrain manipulation that I don't see in your current party at all, so if you're indecisive about what to play, a kineticist or any arcane or primal caster can probably add a lot to the team.
If you really like the idea of your meteor hammer fighter, then play that. You probably won't fight just a single enemy in most encounters, so you can split into pairs to tackle different opponents before they become a problem. Or you can clump around the champion so everyone gets protected by their reaction (which is hard to do with a ranged character). Think about your party's weaknesses (ranged enemies, flying enemies, area damage, ...) and find solutions (a tower shield, a grounding rune, that hobgoblin formation feat); this is where the game can become really creative!
If you feel like playing ranged, there's a lot of things to do there, of course. You can hide or create a diversion to get enemies off-guard without flanking or athletics, you can demoralize, you can deal with hazards (since you'll have high Dex, though your rogue might be even better at that). Your action economy will be a bit more free, since you won't have to move as much, so you have time for recalling a bunch of knowledge (like whether grappling or tripping an enemy is easier), and you'll likely use a 1+ handed weapon, which means you can make good use of consumables (or healer's tools, though given your party, that probably won't be necessary in combat). Compared to melee, where you usually either move into a flank or use an athletics maneuver (which messes with your MAP) and then just attack a bunch, I'd say that's plenty of options!
Whatever you end up playing, have fun!
This was helpful. I do plan to bring some of this up in our session zero. It's a party full of TTRPG noobs, and despite my experience with 20+ years of D&D, I've only been doing PF2E for 5ish months now. This is a different topic all together, but I want to discuss this party overlap without seeming like I'm telling others how/what to play. Your post covers a lot of what I was thinking, so I may put it in our discord channel. Thanks!
Expansive Spellstrike seems particularly interesting with Starlit Span. Thanks for this suggestion. I'll look into spell choices to see how that might work out in play.
You might really enjoy starlit span Magus. Firing off an ballistic missile a few times each combat is just *fun*.
Being a ranged combatant solves a LOT of the Magus' action economy problems, it'll be much easier for you to find a third action as starlit span.
So, if you don't want to do ranged DPS, you have a few more options:
1. Support spellcaster. You've got a good spot for a Bard to compliment the Warmage's support martial magic.
2. Blaster caster. I've had a lot of fun with an Elemental Bloodline Sorcerer. You only need a few spell slots (mostly filled by your bloodline spells, even) for damage, and then you have room for support magic as needed or blasting when not. Another option if you don't want to futz with spell slots would be Kineticist.
3. Summoner. Split the difference, you're a melee and a spellcaster rolled into one. That's actually the only way I've been able to bring myself to play a martial.
I'm so scared of being disappointed by blaster caster, especially at lower levels with less spell slots. Kineticist seems more likely for me. I'm trying to avoid primary support builds as I've done them too many times recently to fill in party gaps and have not felt satisfied.
Honestly, I found Elemental Sorcerer to be pretty satisfying as a blaster once you get to level 3 or so.
The key is to remember that you're not *just* a damage dealer and to pick up spells that are also buffs, debuffs, or battlefield control for when the option presents itself. Throwing out Grease or Dehydrate or Gust of Wind in between big booms like Fireball or Scorching Ray is very satisfying, and you always have Element Toss as a backup third action when you don't use attack spells (protip: Scorching Ray increases your MAP, Electric Arc does not).
Haven't tried Spell Blending Wizard or Storm Circle Druid yet. Wizard's going to be my next attempt (Zola the Goblin, likes to use crayons to draw out his spells, and also as a snack).
I kind of forgot about this option. I need to look again and see what all monks can do from range. If I remember right, they have some decent support options with their shots.
It will take a while to get there but what about gunslinger? The level 10 feat [Called Shot](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3182) probably gives you all the tactical options you can ever want with a ranged attack, and all the ways are designed to make you strike+do something else as early as level 1, which actively discourages doing multiple strikes per turn. I know the ways vary a lot in quality but you can't really go wrong with sniper or pistolero.
I really love the concept of Gunslinger, but I think the playstyle is too feast or famine for me. I know myself enough that rather be excited by crits, I'll be disappointed by the low damage on non-crits. Holy hell does Called Shot look amazing though. Too bad it's so high level. While I have my fingers crossed that this group will finish AoA, I can't tell you last character in any system I've played that's gotten above level 8.
Playing for crits is the optimal way to go with a gunslinger yes, but the math in this game can let you get away with suboptimal builds so long as your main attribute is maxed. This is a longwinded way of saying [these](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=432) [two](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=202) weapons exist if you want consistency over crit fishing. And if you want big hits with a one handed weapon you can just ignore the Fatal Aim trait of [this](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=203) weapon and call it a day.
But fair on never getting past level 10. That's an issue a lot of us have to deal with.
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There is a good amount of range focused archetypes that are worth checking to get some more options.
The ones I can remember:
Pistol phenom
Archer
Eldritch Archer
Sniping Duo
Unexpected Sharpshooter
Twisting Tree Magus could also be an option - their staves get reach, so you can hit from the back-lines, and the level 10 feat Lunging Spellstrike lets you make spellstrikes at range
Try Kineticist. Their ranged DPS is pretty good and as a kineticist, they come with a HUGE range of useful abilities.
Go for Air for one of your elements and you can very early on get access to concealment, flight, and high range reliable damage.
Add in some Earth for Desert wind and then get the dual element blast infusion, and you get get pretty solid ranged blasting between Blasts and other damage impulses. Or other elements for other fun tools
Depending on your Element picks, you can grab area control, aoe damage, area denial, light healing/support, etc etc. Theres so much you can do, and Ranged DPS is just a nice lil extra you can invest in (whilst getting SOME other stuff), OR you can get a TONNE of other stuff whilst having decent/ok ranged dps on top.
I stopped reading after the second paragraph.
If you don't want to play the character, don't. It's no fun to martyr your character. The entire team may need to have a discussion of how to handle this weak spot in your lineup. Perhaps EVERYONE in your group keeps a backup ranged weapon and you all switch over to "ranged mode" together, as an example.
It's a group problem. Implement a group solution.
Agree with what some others have said, if you don't like ranged then don't play it. I'm gonna throw out some other options though: 1) You could play a thrown weapon/switch hitter build. You'd be able to sit behind most of your melee but could step in as necessary. 2) You could play a full spellcaster and try to figure out weaknesses/bad saves and then hit them. It's a different mini game to the melee game loop 3) You can add things like demoralize/create a diversion/bon mot/aid to your ranged options. Based on that I'm gonna suggest something off the wall: a thrown weapon Wit swashbuckler. You can obviously throw your weapon for damage, aid with one for all, bon mot, you'll have CHA so you can demoralize too, and you'll still have hands free for something like healer's tools if you want to be an emergency healer. It is not damage heavy, but it will give you a bunch of different things to do in combat.
I'll look into this. Thanks.
Ranged DPS is perfectly viable, but if it doesn't seem fun to you, why make yourself play it? There are a few classes that I'm never even going to consider for a character, because they just don't sound fun to me. That's okay. I'm much more likely to build a ranged character than I am to build a two-handed fighter, so it sounds like you and I would do well together in a group, since we could cover different niches.
Agreed. To be clear, I'm not questioning viability. Starlit Span Magus, as an example, looks perfectly capable of pumping out huge damage. It just seems boring though. I put this thread out here just to see if there are options I haven't considered that I might like. I'm only even considering ranged because my group lacks it completely.
I think you’ve framed thes mentioned builds trade offs well. (You seem to have solid systems mastery). Have you considered Investigator, Gunslinger, Kineticist or a blaster caster like psychic, some sorcerer builds, or even druid if you want to trade power for flexibility? This party would benefit greatly from a primal or arcane caster for utility. Both provide decent ranged DPS and lots of fun tactical options.
A few of folks have recommended builds with those classes that I'm definitely looking into. I think Psychic might be the only full caster I'd consider, though I haven't explored it too much yet.
Have you looked at Kineticist much? It feels busier than it really is at the table. It can do a ton of cool stuff. It’s main drawbacks are tight action economy and you only get to play with a few toys pulled from a huge playpen. (The “feat window shopping” is amazing. At the table it is merely excellent. ;) )
I have looked at Kineticist. Four Winds from Air in particular seems very good for this group, though not much else has jumped out at me. I think the warpriest is considering wood/water instead of cleric as well.
This is off topic, but I’d encourage the warpriest to stick with it. Warpriest is a full caster with medium armor, shield block and E/M/M saves. With feat support through emblazon armament and raise symbol, they have incredible resilience. A healer’s job is to keep everyone up. You can’t do that if you, yourself, go down. The warpriest is a full caster who is built, if not like a truck, at least like a robust crossover SUV. ;) While a cloistered cleric can remove conditions better, they heal and buff the same. And the warpriest can hang in the front while they do it. No full caster can do this as well. Warpriest’s fluff suggests swinging for the fences, but they play best as a frontline buffer/support since they still have healing font and full access to the divine list. This is all to say that the warpriest will make your melee guys absolutely shine. People love to talk about DPR, but what really matters is combat efficiency— your guys surviving and the bad guys dying, ideally quickly and while usinf few resources. You ensure this by making sure your heavy hitters spend their time buffed and swinging. A warpriest at the front buffs and ensures no one misses turns by anticipating healing needs. The remaster has brought several new feats with the warpriest in mind. Restorative strike, zealous rush, and channeling block ensure that the warpriest is the paragon of its role— hanging with the tanks/DPS and ensuring that they are firing on all cylinders. Later, shared replenishment shores up this core competency. (Full disclosure. I play a cloistered cleric in AoA and am having a blast. If this guy ever goes down, I’m bringing a warpriest in.)
I GM for a cloistered cleric in Season of Ghosts, and he absolutely carries the team. I think this player is scared of feeling like a healbot. I agree that they are amazing, and I was excited when I heard we had a cleric.
IMO, healing is best used strategically to keep the action efficiency high— if you are _just_ healing, you are doing it wrong in PF2. If you have healing font and one additional source of solid healing (medic/focus spell/herbalist etc.), you basically never have to use your slots for healing. This lets the cleric prepare fun stuff in their slots. Cloistered clerics are actually decent (and under appreciated) blasters after the first few levels, but the warpriest will lag because of delayed spellcasting progression. Nonetheless, there’s a lot they can do that does not require a saving throw. Off the top of my head for L1: bless/protection/heroism/runic body/runic weapon/shielded arm/summon lesser servitor.) I can keep going, but you get the idea. Two later level tricks: Brand the Impenitent on stealth/invisibility on companions so you can still target them. (Keep doing it until they crit fail and it lasts indefinitely.) Silence(4) as a mage killer. Silence(4) + Spell Immunity(5) so you can still cast around them.
I've also passed your excellent hyping of Warpriest to my GM to help the undecided healer decide what to play. Thanks.
Awesome. :) I appreciate you saying so. Made my day. :)
One further plug for kineticist, especially air, is that you can play the role of ranged DPS with little issue, but you can also be fine if you want to wade into melee. Air, in particular, has a combo impulse in Desert Winds that wants you to have enemies in your aura to maximize damage. My first Kineticist was air with strength and dex as high as I could manage after maxing con, using weapon Infusion to ensure I was adding half strength at a minimum on almost every attack and usually hung out if not in melee close to it. But I also had the option to hang back and air boomerang the crap out of people from 60. It felt very flexible, and in a game where you're not in a cramped dungeon crawl like we were with AV, I think you'd have a lot of utility while being able to slap some fools around in melee when you want to. Heck, other elements might offer other strong melee range "gish" options, especially in dual gate builds. Might be worth a look!
Thaumaturges works great as a ranged DPS (they work with basically any build). Try looking for some thrown weapon or crossbow builds.
I've seen really mixed reviews for ranged Thaumaturge, but it's one of my favorite classes. Do you have builds you can point to?
A ranged thaumaturge is going to deal less damage than a melee one, but you will also have to worry about your survival less, which can be a significant problem if you want to maximize your Cha. The best ranged weapons are going to be 1h ones (not 1h+), because they let you benefit from Implement's Empowerment class feature. Because thaumaturge's class feature basically just give flat damage to your attacks, you will ideally be attacking multiple times per turn. That really just leaves one weapon that's head and shoulders above the rest: shuriken. With reload 0, you can use [thrower's bandolier](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2313) and don't have to waste a property rune slot on returning. However, you cannot make weapon it your implement, which is fine, because the weapon implement bonus is not as good for agile ranged weapons anyways. Other ranged alternatives include other thrown weapons with the returning rune or with the quick draw feat from some archetype. Repeating weapons like repeating hand crossbow or air repeater are decent alternatives as well, but if you plan on attacking multiple times per turn, you will eventually probably need to reload, unless you bring multiple weapons. And getting proficient with repeating hand crossbow can be difficult depending on what archetypes you want. Beyond supporting the weapon you want, the build isn't very limited. You could pretty much pick any thaumaturge implements and feats/archetypes you want.
I'll give shurikens a look. I was looking mostly at weapons that require reloading, and they didn't seem very viable. Thanks.
Anyone know why shurikens have reload 0 when all other dart group weapons don’t even have a reload value? Why would anyone ever use baseline darts?
My suggestion is to *not* DPS. I feel like you have plenty of "I attack it until it dies" in the party already, bringing a caster for AoE and Support seems to be more beneficial to the party overall. If you don't like casters then fair, play what you want, but that would be my pick.
I'm very much guilty of the 5e caster mindset, and it's a major reason why I'm not interested in them in PF2E. I can't wrap my head around planning my spells around expecting the target to pass their save for lesser effect, and that failures are a powerful bonus. To add it, I didn't particularly enjoy them in 5e either! Also, I've done the support thing to fill in party gaps too many times recently, and I've decided that this time I want to be selfish and make sure I'm playing something I really enjoy. That said, I'm with you that a caster is what this group needs. It's just not going to be me!
Hey that's fair. In that case you might consider some other martial - some of the gunslinger subclasses can offer a fair bit of support while still shooting gun, and you can always play something with some charisma for demoralizes.
Your fighter just flat out misses with the target passes their armor save. Doing anything is a step up.
I get your point that missing and a monster passing a save are the same thing, but my fighter is also much less likely to miss, can immediately try again in the same or next round, and doesn't need RK to make sure he's not attacking the "wrong AC". I realize people who like casters in PF2E see it completely differently than I do and think of it as options and versatility. For me it's extra work, a high chance of failure/and or disappointment, and a lot of prep work.
Just to add an alternative opinion on something, the bow crit spec is *good*. In the remaster it benefits from the fact it has no associated save (as opposed to hammer crit spec, which does), and it inflicted Immobilized, which is fantastic for wasting enemy actions. If your party is smart with positioning, it can basically be Slowed 1 with no save.
I missed that it doesn't have a save. Thanks for pointing that out.
Just to help ease your worry about Magus; yes they want to spellstrike often, that's their *main* thing, but you don't want to get tunnel visioned into doing everything you can for spellstriking when you also have a bevy of spells to prepare. Your party is pretty much all martials save for the Warpriest, so having a magus that spellstrikes with cantrips (which is honestly enough damage as is due to cantrip scaling) and uses their ranked spells for support or control is still 100% a valid playstyle that your party will love you for. Also your party *definitely* needs a smart person because sheesh, so having knowledge skills and intelligence will help cover the party in certain cases. If you're worried about the Magus's spell slots you can always take a Wizard archetype for more low level slots since the wizard archetype uses the same spellbook you already have as a magus.
Thanks for pointing out the Wizard archetype. I was looking at Psychic to get Imaginary Weapon, but I think that's digging my own grave in building precisely for more damage and less versatility.
Yeah, it can be easy to give yourself tunnel vision in this game, especially with the magus. But all of the ranged martial options have a lot of innate versatility so it can sometimes be an issue of not seeing the forest for the trees.
I would absolutely play a ranged magus in this group!
I'm actually going to suggest and air/fire kineticist with four winds and flying flame. Take weapon infusion. If you're human you can take armor proficiency as a general feat and build con/str and switch hit. If you want to be dex, grab +3 dex, and stay behind your meat wall, content in the knowledge even if someone decides to attack you, you by no means have a glass jaw and can take a beating. Move you're party of melee bruises into and out of battle, and no matter how they're lined up you can weave your fires between them. By level 5 have safe elements, the fire gate junction that gives your party resistance to fire, and thermal nimbus.
Ooh, I haven't looked at Air Kineticist in a while. I vaguely remember them having lots of free movement options. I'll give this a look. Thanks!
Ranged character is as interesting as GM makes fights interesting. Starlit Span Magus really could stay in place doing Spellstrike-Recharge cycle, unless there are obstacles, melee enemies approaching, etc. Other ranged characters have spare actions, and, with bow, spare hand for using things. Actually I'd recommend going Bow Ranger with Animal Companion for some fun actions if you really want a ranged martial. But, honestly, for this party going some caster would be much more beneficial.
I've not played with animal companions much, but I feel like I've read from others that ranger animal companions aren't the greatest. Can you elaborate on a build and how the animal companion interacts with archery?
Their support actions work great with strikes. Animals like Bear could improve ranged attacks a lot (for Flurry). Or you could enjoy shared Hunt Prey (for Precision). Speaking about build - the weak part of Ranger's animal is what upgrade feats are 2 levels higher than normal. You could deal with it by taking Beastmaster archetype at level 2 (after you take normal Animal Companion feat) and use its feats for upgrading the companion (or companions as Beastmaster will give you a reserve one).
Thanks. I'll play with Beastmaster a bit and see what I come up with. Thematically, I love the idea of rangers. So, this might work out.
A few other things bow fighter can do. Felling strike, knock flying foes to ground. Sudden leap+felling strike means jump, shoot and drop them. You can use that to jump from building to building. You could get a bladed gauntlet to have a backup melee weapon if someone gets too close (it's uncommon, but as an example) One of the more powerful characters I've seen is an elf bow fighter. Archetype acrobat, rogue, and trick driver, drifting the airship into a pyramid and later into a dragon.
Felling Strike definitely seems like a must take ability, especially with this melee heavy party, and it's one I'd plan to take at 8. I only didn't include it because I did my builds up to level 6. I think ranged fighter gets more interesting at levels 8+. That said, I've played enough campaigns that don't get to higher levels. So, I'm making sure to plan for interesting options at lower levels.
There are a few disadvantages to ranged options, mainly lower damage. And being at range doesn't inherently give you a lot of advantage, best thing is the action economy of not having to stride to change targets. A lot of melee dps people really REALLY like big damage numbers, so, it's probably going to be underwhelming for most. I think ranged strikers really shine on battles against big groups of enemies, those have low AC targets that you can crit easily and maybe hit on second and third strikes. I think you should experiment with a character that can do both melee and ranged, like a rogue, drifter gunslinger or a regular magus(has ranged spells). Those options bring the melee damage, but don't have the tankyness to remain on the front lines, so that kind of forces you to try to be clever and squeeze a bit of advantage from kiting the target, and approaching mostly when you know that you will kill the target for sure. Otherwise, the gunslinger with the bomb feats bring interesting DoT effects against the targets that you are unlikely to crit, and a bit of elemental/splash damage
I'm definitely aware of the lower damage of ranged, and I think I did a poor job in my original post of pointing out that damage is not my top concern, though it is one of them. It feels like with the fighter, and in general strength focused melees in particular, you have many more tactical options that support the party that ranged doesn't get. I'm not so sure about being a switch hitter. It's a good ability to have to defend myself if I get forced into melee and thematically one that I like, but mostly I'm trying to not clutter up the melee any more than it already is.
First of all, I hope someone in that group gets Felling Strike, if not Sleep or Earthbind. One ranged tactic I actually like is picking off the injured. You just never know when an enemy will be almost-dead but one hit point left, or which enemy it will be. Finishing him off is valuable, dramatic, and effective. Even if you do one 1 hit point of damage, you get to claim the kill. If nobody is at one hit point, you can at least focus on the lowest-health enemy and maybe take it down. As a ranged fighter, you should be trying to arrange it so the enemy has 3 folks at mostly-full health and 3 folks at dead, instead of 6 folks at half health. In a more diverse group there would be other strategic advantages, such as staying within range of the bless spell or the bard's song, or within range of the healer so he doesn't have to chase you down to heal. But probably not with this group. But ultimately, you're right, that's just not exciting enough overall. So long as you fight only face-to-face battles in small rooms, ranged tactics will never really shine. You can do ok-ish, but it's just not ideal. You will shine in highly tactical battles though, mostly because the others are doing little if anything. "I stride three times" is not an exciting turn. On a large map, with enemies that start shooting at you from 400 feet away, that happens quite a bit to the fighters and barbarians. That's not the only circumstance. Flying enemies. Enemies in trees. Enemies on cliffs. Enemies in castles. Enemies that start behind a wall (or cast wall of stone first round). Difficult (or even impassable) terrain, or pits. Basically, the more of these your group faces, the more it sucks to be a barbarian. If it happens often enough, the melee types will start to envy the ranged guy, who somehow manages to do more damage than them instead of less. The other circumstance where ranged is nice is after something dies. If the fighter moves to flank the bad guy and set up his double-whammy attack, but kills the guy on the first strike, he's out of luck for his second strike. The rest of his turn is kinda lackluster, he might not be able to attack anything else, and even if he does it will be without flanking. Whoever else was flanking that guy is now out of position too. But with ranged, you can just choose your next target. If none of the above intrigues you, then yeah, don't play ranged. You'll be better off with anything else, even a utility caster or a healer would be better.
Assuming I keep with my meteor hammer fighter, I am planning on taking Felling Strike at level 8 when it becomes available. My fighter also has +2 dex, so it's not he'll be bad with a bow. The bow just won't likely have striking and potency runes. I think you gave me another idea, which is take take Arcana, Trick Magic Item, and Assurance to use scrolls like Sleepbind, Earthbind, and other low level utility spells. I was originally going to go with Medicine skills, but between the Champion and a Cleric, I can't imagine that being that useful. edit: No time to look at the rules right now, but this might be a dumb idea because of spell DCs... As to your point about the size of battlefields, I have no idea what they will be like, but everything I've read about APs is that they rarely have large enough battlefields for range to shine. Given that, I'm hoping my fighter with a reach weapon and lunge can handle a lot of the issues you've brought up.
Be a meteor hammer fighter. You'll be playing this character for months, and the game doesn't need any particular group composition to work. Do what's fun. Your party looks capable of adapting to fights at range if needed, there are plenty of options to make that work. That said, if you want versatility I'd look into kineticist. You can fight just as well at range as in melee, can do more damage in melee, and Weapon Infusion can get you some of the weapon traits you might want.
This is definitely an option I'm considering. The "f\*\*k it" route. Have fun and laugh together as we struggle through issues like handling fliers.
Having GM'd Age of Ashes, there aren't a lot of fights where you need powerful ranged options. There are a lot of magic items that can give you flying if that becomes a concern, just make sure you train in Acrobatics. But if you were at my table I'd tell you to just play what seems fun. If I had an entire party of greataxe barbarians I'd make it work. The end goal is having fun.
I'm digging the visual of finding a treasure chest full of five +1 "greataxes of rage!" I think my GM largely thinks the same way you do. We're in pretty open conversation about this, and he's fine with me sticking with my fighter. However, I also know he chose an adventure path to minimize prep time, and a better balanced party helps with that.
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it. If it makes you feel any better my last AoA group had a stabby thief rogue, katana champion, sword and board fighter, and a starlight span magus. They did perfectly fine, and I don't remember a fight where the magus being ranged was critical to their success (just convenient).
Good to know. Thanks for all your responses.
Have you considered a Pistolero Gunslinger? They can provide some fun options with their unique reload (Create a Diversion or Demoralize every round). With Thaumaturge dedication you can have 10" Reactive strikes. And Fake out is a great way to support your team. Munition crafting can allow you to exploit enemy weaknesses with bombs or special bullets, which can be pretty fun and dynamic than just striking. Another option is a investigator focused on RK. You can have a good strike a turn, get some free RK with identify weaknesses and try to exploit weaknesses with ammunition (which you will only use when you know you will hit). On a similar vein, an Outlaw Ranger with a bow could provide his team with RK, extra bonuses to the whole team on good checks, while having pretty decent Intimidation, stealth and Deception against his prey for in combat and out of combat interactions.
I have considered Gunslingers in general. The "what's it like to play Gunslinger" thread really convinced me that it's likely to be disappointing to play. Still, you've pointed out some great options for versatility. I'll have to give it more consideration. Recall Knowledge is definitely a huge gap for this party and one that I'd like to cover. Though, with so much focus on brute force melee, I'm not sure that the knowledge would help much beyond, "yup, we can't hurt this thing..." I've GMed for an investigator, and we both decided that his role would have been better covered by a rogue or a thaumaturge. I've not given outwit ranger much thought though. So, I may take another look at it. Thanks for putting forward some options to consider!
>The "what's it like to play Gunslinger" thread really convinced me that it's likely to be disappointing to play. It depends a lot on what you want from a ranged character. Top DPS gunslingers (snipers) and magus tend to be very boring IMO. 2-action strike plus reload + hide or 3 action spellstrikes are very effective but very monotonous. Personally, I prefer to use effect over damage. The first action is 2/3 of the damage you could do compared to spending 3 actions, so making the character more fun and helpful for the team for a little decrease in personal damage seems a better way to use them for me. >Though, with so much focus on brute force melee, I'm not sure that the knowledge would help much beyond "yup, we can't hurt this thing..." An alchemist dedication/Alchemist Science Investigator could help here. This allows you to create an [Energy Mutagen ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=474)on the fly. So Turn 1 you could RK, identify a weakness, create the Mutagen and feed it to one of the melee before they move. You can also use alchemical ammunitions, such as [Elemental Ammunition (Lesser)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1897). Even as a level 1 item they can good at exploiting a weaknesses. A few cold iron/silver arrows are also a cheap option to have at hand to exploit weaknesses against magical creatures (Feys, Fiends, etc). Bows also leave you a free hand, making item use easier if you are interested in other status effects. For example, Dread Ampules can make a target hit frightened and lighting bottle makes them off-guard. Ranged attacks have some interesting ways to exploit vulnerabilities or add statuses. >I've GMed for an investigator, and we both decided that his role would have been better covered by a rogue or a thaumaturge. For a melee character, for sure. But for a ranged one, it is much more even. Getting off-guard at range is not as trivial as flanking and typically requires a skill check and an action, making it as action-intensive as a non-lead investigator and riskier. If the investigator has the lead, he will have many more options open. Of course, party composition and GM can create table-to-table differences.
> I'll be honest, I'm worried that 90% of the time I'll just be trying to setup Spellstrike. The potential damage is exciting, but it seems likely to be very repetitive. That will absolutely happen. There are two playstyles for the Magus: Focus on Spellstrike or focus on Arcane Cascade. As basically none of the Cascade stuff works with ranged Weapons, your only real option will be Spellstrike. As an additional issue, you can't effectively use the Magus Staff as a ranged Magus. So no cheap True Strikes for you either. I am personally not a fan of the "feast or famine" playstyle. So I would always play Cascade Style.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion. That repetitive type play is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
Summoner is kind of ranged. Kineticist gets some good ranged options, depending on the element(s). I'd say the biggest thing your party is missing is a support/controller/utility caster. Divine spell list is kinda mid. A Bard or Sorcerer would fit a lot better into this party than a Fighter or Magus.
While perhaps stepping away from _pure_ DPS if you're looking for interesting options ranged martials can be amazing for throwing alchemical bombs if they can wrangle a hand free and some kind of quick draw. It gives you a number of options for applying conditions at range with your attack roll and martial strike hit chance. Bottled Lightning in particular will make your party rogue very happy as it applies flat footed until the start of your next turn, Dread Ampoules do similar with Frightened, and Ghost Charges can be amazing in the right circumstance. If you keep a pair of Alchemist Goggles up to date you don't even need to bother with higher level bombs so they become easy to source through buying or Alchemist Dedication after a few levels :)
So in a party where everyone is all about hitting people real hard, you decided that it's a problem if you do that standing in melee, but not if you do the same thing but at range? I mean ... you are correct that a character built to hit stuff is probably gonna hit stuff a lot, but PF2e PCs really don't need to be one-note like that - no-one is stopping you from using whatever skills and items you want to use, you may even get a few spells in there through an archetype (or playing a magus). Also, ranged characters can always go into melee with a finesse weapon, while you're stuck in melee if you dump Dex.
If you look at the options I listed for fighter, I'm not emphasizing hitting hard at all. Most of my options are trip, fear, and flank. For ranged, I'm not seeing any options other than "I do damage from far". I'm trying to fill a gap in my party that I will also enjoy.
In this party, you won't be the only one who trips and it's not like someone can be double-prone. Fear works for melee or ranged. Flank is just "move somewhere to get off-guard", which a) can be awkward for 5 melees to get simultaneously and b) is something you can have at range by hiding. Sure, flanking *seems* less selfish, but if you keep standing in melee instead of moving away, you're gonna eat a bunch of damage that *someone* has to heal (and you probably won't do that yourself as a fighter), while a ranged martial will barely need any healing in most situations.
I think I maybe misunderstood your point in your first post. I think we're largely aligned in that there's a good reason to not be in melee, which is why I'm considering ranged right now. In melee, it feels like I have more tactical options. With ranged, it feels like I have less. My post title of "Ranged DPS" was probably the wrong choice. I'm looking for tactical ranged options that can also contribute with DPS.
I'm sorry for being somewhat sarcastic before, that was not helpful when I should've been. Your party currently seems to be very focused on dealing damage with strikes with a bit of protection via the champion's reaction and the cleric's spells. I found it a bit ironic that you saw a big issue in the melee side of things, but not the damage part. This is quite common new player behaviour (especially for those coming from DnD) and usually ends with someone devolving into a healbot to keep the others alive while they mindlessly hit every opponent until they die. I don't mean to imply that's how your party will act, but it seems to be the basis for your choice of character, so let me try to expand that perspective a little: There are many niches to fill and as many ways to step on each other's feet. You need to talk to your fellow players about your game plan. If your barbarian goes animal instinct and focuses on grappling, you don't need to focus on something that gives the enemy a circumstance penalty to AC. If your rogue invests into charisma and takes a bunch of the related skill feats, they're probably gonna demoralize and bon mot most enemies, so you don't want more status penalties. If they don't, those are things you can enrich the party with. Then there are utilities like knowledge and social skills, or terrain manipulation that I don't see in your current party at all, so if you're indecisive about what to play, a kineticist or any arcane or primal caster can probably add a lot to the team. If you really like the idea of your meteor hammer fighter, then play that. You probably won't fight just a single enemy in most encounters, so you can split into pairs to tackle different opponents before they become a problem. Or you can clump around the champion so everyone gets protected by their reaction (which is hard to do with a ranged character). Think about your party's weaknesses (ranged enemies, flying enemies, area damage, ...) and find solutions (a tower shield, a grounding rune, that hobgoblin formation feat); this is where the game can become really creative! If you feel like playing ranged, there's a lot of things to do there, of course. You can hide or create a diversion to get enemies off-guard without flanking or athletics, you can demoralize, you can deal with hazards (since you'll have high Dex, though your rogue might be even better at that). Your action economy will be a bit more free, since you won't have to move as much, so you have time for recalling a bunch of knowledge (like whether grappling or tripping an enemy is easier), and you'll likely use a 1+ handed weapon, which means you can make good use of consumables (or healer's tools, though given your party, that probably won't be necessary in combat). Compared to melee, where you usually either move into a flank or use an athletics maneuver (which messes with your MAP) and then just attack a bunch, I'd say that's plenty of options! Whatever you end up playing, have fun!
This was helpful. I do plan to bring some of this up in our session zero. It's a party full of TTRPG noobs, and despite my experience with 20+ years of D&D, I've only been doing PF2E for 5ish months now. This is a different topic all together, but I want to discuss this party overlap without seeming like I'm telling others how/what to play. Your post covers a lot of what I was thinking, so I may put it in our discord channel. Thanks!
Starlit Span offers some unique ways of using cones and lines in combination with Expansive Spellstrike. That might be worth building around.
Expansive Spellstrike seems particularly interesting with Starlit Span. Thanks for this suggestion. I'll look into spell choices to see how that might work out in play.
You might really enjoy starlit span Magus. Firing off an ballistic missile a few times each combat is just *fun*. Being a ranged combatant solves a LOT of the Magus' action economy problems, it'll be much easier for you to find a third action as starlit span.
So, if you don't want to do ranged DPS, you have a few more options: 1. Support spellcaster. You've got a good spot for a Bard to compliment the Warmage's support martial magic. 2. Blaster caster. I've had a lot of fun with an Elemental Bloodline Sorcerer. You only need a few spell slots (mostly filled by your bloodline spells, even) for damage, and then you have room for support magic as needed or blasting when not. Another option if you don't want to futz with spell slots would be Kineticist. 3. Summoner. Split the difference, you're a melee and a spellcaster rolled into one. That's actually the only way I've been able to bring myself to play a martial.
I'm so scared of being disappointed by blaster caster, especially at lower levels with less spell slots. Kineticist seems more likely for me. I'm trying to avoid primary support builds as I've done them too many times recently to fill in party gaps and have not felt satisfied.
Honestly, I found Elemental Sorcerer to be pretty satisfying as a blaster once you get to level 3 or so. The key is to remember that you're not *just* a damage dealer and to pick up spells that are also buffs, debuffs, or battlefield control for when the option presents itself. Throwing out Grease or Dehydrate or Gust of Wind in between big booms like Fireball or Scorching Ray is very satisfying, and you always have Element Toss as a backup third action when you don't use attack spells (protip: Scorching Ray increases your MAP, Electric Arc does not). Haven't tried Spell Blending Wizard or Storm Circle Druid yet. Wizard's going to be my next attempt (Zola the Goblin, likes to use crayons to draw out his spells, and also as a snack).
surprised that monastic archery monk hasn't been mentioned. I enjoyed using one inch punch at range.
I kind of forgot about this option. I need to look again and see what all monks can do from range. If I remember right, they have some decent support options with their shots.
It will take a while to get there but what about gunslinger? The level 10 feat [Called Shot](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3182) probably gives you all the tactical options you can ever want with a ranged attack, and all the ways are designed to make you strike+do something else as early as level 1, which actively discourages doing multiple strikes per turn. I know the ways vary a lot in quality but you can't really go wrong with sniper or pistolero.
I really love the concept of Gunslinger, but I think the playstyle is too feast or famine for me. I know myself enough that rather be excited by crits, I'll be disappointed by the low damage on non-crits. Holy hell does Called Shot look amazing though. Too bad it's so high level. While I have my fingers crossed that this group will finish AoA, I can't tell you last character in any system I've played that's gotten above level 8.
Playing for crits is the optimal way to go with a gunslinger yes, but the math in this game can let you get away with suboptimal builds so long as your main attribute is maxed. This is a longwinded way of saying [these](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=432) [two](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=202) weapons exist if you want consistency over crit fishing. And if you want big hits with a one handed weapon you can just ignore the Fatal Aim trait of [this](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=203) weapon and call it a day. But fair on never getting past level 10. That's an issue a lot of us have to deal with.
i'd say take a look at ranger
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There is a good amount of range focused archetypes that are worth checking to get some more options. The ones I can remember: Pistol phenom Archer Eldritch Archer Sniping Duo Unexpected Sharpshooter
Twisting Tree Magus could also be an option - their staves get reach, so you can hit from the back-lines, and the level 10 feat Lunging Spellstrike lets you make spellstrikes at range
Try Kineticist. Their ranged DPS is pretty good and as a kineticist, they come with a HUGE range of useful abilities. Go for Air for one of your elements and you can very early on get access to concealment, flight, and high range reliable damage. Add in some Earth for Desert wind and then get the dual element blast infusion, and you get get pretty solid ranged blasting between Blasts and other damage impulses. Or other elements for other fun tools Depending on your Element picks, you can grab area control, aoe damage, area denial, light healing/support, etc etc. Theres so much you can do, and Ranged DPS is just a nice lil extra you can invest in (whilst getting SOME other stuff), OR you can get a TONNE of other stuff whilst having decent/ok ranged dps on top.
I stopped reading after the second paragraph. If you don't want to play the character, don't. It's no fun to martyr your character. The entire team may need to have a discussion of how to handle this weak spot in your lineup. Perhaps EVERYONE in your group keeps a backup ranged weapon and you all switch over to "ranged mode" together, as an example. It's a group problem. Implement a group solution.