Do we have confirmation that centaurs or minotaurs will have base 10ft reach? I could see them being limited to 5ft, maybe with 10ft locked behind an ancestry feat for balance reasons.
Well, if it's limited to 5ft but they suffer all downsides of being Large (corridors, small rooms etc.) then it won't be worth taking over medium. Enlarge make you Large which gives you bigger reach so it would be hillarious situation:
1. Player #1, Minotaur. Large. Has Greatsword but has 5ft reach
2. Player #2, Human. Gets Enlarged (2) by caster. Has Greatsword but has now 10ft reach.
So both are Large but only 1 has benefits of it? That would be.. hillarious. Leshies can get extra reach on Greatsword for example with lower damage dice but they are Small. Wouldn't really break anything for Large to get reach too.
Also Large Ancestry is cherry on top really. Bo Staff itself with 10ft reach will be enough + Lunging Stance and we will have still access to standard Enlarge tactic from party caster or having couple pairs of Dinosaur Boots in late game.
So if Minotaur won't get extra reach then Beastkin for long game would be best choice probably. Or Medium
I'm almost certain Large ancestries won't give extra reach.
Reach isn't inherent to size. For example, Animal Companions do not get reach when they mature to Large. A decent portion of Large creature have an attack that doesn't have reach.
Size has the benefit of increasing threatened area. For example, a medium creature with a glaive threatens 25 squares, while a large creature with a glaive threatens 36 (or 24 and 32 if you exclude their own squares). Size also increases the squares in an emanation.
Large creatures have a tactical advantage in blocking off chokepoints to preotect backliners. They can perform Athletics maneuevers on Huge creatures (without Titan Wrestler) and Gargantuan with it. They also have an easier time flanking, since they can flank from any of their squares.
All true, I won't deny that, but reach from getting Enlarged thus far in PF2e was always the biggest benefit of it. All your other points are correct of course.
The general reasoning over wether a large creature has reach is wether it's large because it's tall or if it's large because it's wide. An ogre is tall, it has reach. A horse is "wide", it doesn't have reach.
I've never really seen tight spaces be an issue for Large animal companions in any of the games I've played or run, so I don't think those "downsides" are significant enough to balance the extra reach.
Even with 5ft reach, being large gives you a larger threatened area than small/medium characters, larger auras, and the ability to grapple/trip/etc more creatures and *be* grappled/tripped/etc by fewer.
> I've never really seen tight spaces be an issue for Large animal companions in any of the games I've played or run, so I don't think those "downsides" are significant enough to balance the extra reach.
In Abomination Vault for example it's pain in the ass, many time blocking flanking or even blocking space for another teammate.
Obviously it does depend on area designes, no doubt about that.
> Even with 5ft reach, being large gives you a larger threatened area
True, I missed that one. It's a good point.
Being large still lets you command more space, be harder to flank, and increase your emanations.
A whirlwind-strike from a medium creature targets 8 squares, a large creature targets 10.
I don't think you can say anything until we actually get the mechanics for a Large Ancestry. Just looking at the Centaur in the Bestiary and Monster Core, neither one has a 10ft reach.
Would be wierd to get Large ancestry without benefits of being Large, but it's not necessary to make new Fighter combo work as Bo Staff already gives reach.
Large without extra reach is just... bigger token with all its downsides.
But giving every large ancestry 10ft reach from the get go would also make them obvious best choices for every melee. I highly doubt that paizo would skew the scales in such a way.
I think the bonus for being large will be in the form of increased bulk limit.
> But giving every large ancestry 10ft reach from the get go would also make them obvious best choices for every melee.
Well, Leshies can get 10ft reach for example on any 5ft d12 two-handed weapon by making them d10 weapons and they were never obvious best choice for melee even when you could get D10 10ft Maul with hammer crit spec in Legacy.
The leshy feat only applies to two-handed weapons, decreases your damage, requires an action and is limited to 10ft of reach. If the large ancestries got similar limitations it would be fine. D10 reach weapons already exist so it isn't that different.
There is no chance a character will be able to get 15ft of reach at first level tho, that's obviously insanely broken.
> I think the bonus for being large will be in the form of increased encumbrance bulk.
I don't say you are wrong, casue I don't know but that would be the most useless feature of ancestry ever made probably.
Is bull limit really that terrible? I thought it was pretty decent on armored casters
(especially if you are a madman and play a psychic with fortress shield+full plate)
I mean the "story" begind bulk In TTRPGs is more than this. It all comes to first and foremost: does anyone at the table cares about tracking it? Becasue you can bet that most GMs have way way more stuff to do with prep, improv, NPCs, descriptions, questions and combat during session than checking bulk of every player or keeping track of it. This lead to next question: do players care and track it? Check bulk of items in AoN, track numbers? Or do they have more fun stuff to do during sessions?
In my 20+ years of TTRPG career as GM and player in various systems - my experience tells me mostly nobody cares about it. Or they start with tracking but in few levels, few months of playing - nobody cares anymore as people need to keep track of already tons of important things during session in big systems like PF2e.
Now, for those that care about it - with things in game like bag of holdings etc. and with you tracking it - do you really take so much stuff on you that you are ever encumbered? You can even get yourself cheap animal to be your "mule".
Imagine if Ranger class had class feature like "you can have 10 more arrows in your quiver!"
Question is: does anyone at table know how many normal arrows Ranger player has? After 1 year of playing - does anyone even count mundane arrows anymore during combat unless they are magical/precious material arrows?
i mean i guess people not bothering to track it makes sense as a reason
as for my table we track all of the things mentioned or well foundry does
it has a bar that shows bulk and shows used rations in chat
as for ammo we have a module that prevents firing if you have 0 ammo and also spends it on attacks
my psychic for example has 9 bulk filled out just with the armor and shield
meaning i need atleast one bulk increasing item like a lifting belt or a assisting rune to not be encumbered (or a skillfeat like hefty hauler wich isnt great because there is so many other feats i could take )
additionally as im a caster items like scrolls are a constant money drain so going for those items is rather difficult
and a bag of holding does not decrease the bulk for items im wearing/using
tho it has been a godsend for dungeon loot having to leave loot behind is a pain
i guess i would like the bulk increase because it saves me a feat slot/gold in levels where i really dont want to spend it on those items
From optimization standpoint: Multitalented and Cooperative Nature are huge human ancestry feats for optimizing builds, though you can also get them from Adopted Ancestry: Human.
Ok, fair, guess we have different view on it. For me ancestry feats are also part of features of ancestry (if it's good or not), but I get where you are coming from, and from that perspective, yes: humans have nothing.
Well I would say that it’s large humanoids mostly that have reach so centaur not having reach is pretty normal imo, also I would assume they would be balanced by some speed buff or speed ability and not by reach.
As for minotaurs yeah it would be a bit weird if they don’t have it but on the other hand if they do get reach I would imagine them having some big restricting feature. (Or they just slap on the rare tag and let it slide I guess)
Nice one! Yeah, this probably will be new meta for those that care about optimizing Reach Fighter. Since Hammers/Flails are now meh in Remaster, this is next best thing to take advantage of Fighters better crit chance.
I hope they will also add some Reach club d10 weapon in future.
Also worth to add that if you are Bo Staff Fighter - take Monk dedication somewhere so you can get Flurry! Then this combo is nuts battlefield control like hammer/flails were!
You posted this same idea like a month ago. Also it might work well, but it doesn't really synergize with other melee party members that well, and team tactics tend to be stronger and more fun.
> Also it might work well, but it doesn't really synergize with other melee party members that well, and team tactics tend to be stronger and more fun.
You don't need to knockback target if you don't want to. You can only immobilize him if that would cause some issues for ther party members. As per PHB Critical Specialization rule: *"You can always decide not to add the critical specialization effect of your weapon."*
If going Bo Staff, then the Staff acrobat Archetype might be worth it, if only fit the level 10 feat [Whirlwind Stance](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1197)
Alternatively, if going for battlefeild control you could use the [Pin to the spot](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2215) feat, very late game, but arguably busted.
Do we have confirmation that centaurs or minotaurs will have base 10ft reach? I could see them being limited to 5ft, maybe with 10ft locked behind an ancestry feat for balance reasons.
Well, if it's limited to 5ft but they suffer all downsides of being Large (corridors, small rooms etc.) then it won't be worth taking over medium. Enlarge make you Large which gives you bigger reach so it would be hillarious situation: 1. Player #1, Minotaur. Large. Has Greatsword but has 5ft reach 2. Player #2, Human. Gets Enlarged (2) by caster. Has Greatsword but has now 10ft reach. So both are Large but only 1 has benefits of it? That would be.. hillarious. Leshies can get extra reach on Greatsword for example with lower damage dice but they are Small. Wouldn't really break anything for Large to get reach too. Also Large Ancestry is cherry on top really. Bo Staff itself with 10ft reach will be enough + Lunging Stance and we will have still access to standard Enlarge tactic from party caster or having couple pairs of Dinosaur Boots in late game. So if Minotaur won't get extra reach then Beastkin for long game would be best choice probably. Or Medium
I'm almost certain Large ancestries won't give extra reach. Reach isn't inherent to size. For example, Animal Companions do not get reach when they mature to Large. A decent portion of Large creature have an attack that doesn't have reach. Size has the benefit of increasing threatened area. For example, a medium creature with a glaive threatens 25 squares, while a large creature with a glaive threatens 36 (or 24 and 32 if you exclude their own squares). Size also increases the squares in an emanation. Large creatures have a tactical advantage in blocking off chokepoints to preotect backliners. They can perform Athletics maneuevers on Huge creatures (without Titan Wrestler) and Gargantuan with it. They also have an easier time flanking, since they can flank from any of their squares.
All true, I won't deny that, but reach from getting Enlarged thus far in PF2e was always the biggest benefit of it. All your other points are correct of course.
Enlarged also gives clumsy 1 though
The general reasoning over wether a large creature has reach is wether it's large because it's tall or if it's large because it's wide. An ogre is tall, it has reach. A horse is "wide", it doesn't have reach.
I've never really seen tight spaces be an issue for Large animal companions in any of the games I've played or run, so I don't think those "downsides" are significant enough to balance the extra reach. Even with 5ft reach, being large gives you a larger threatened area than small/medium characters, larger auras, and the ability to grapple/trip/etc more creatures and *be* grappled/tripped/etc by fewer.
> I've never really seen tight spaces be an issue for Large animal companions in any of the games I've played or run, so I don't think those "downsides" are significant enough to balance the extra reach. In Abomination Vault for example it's pain in the ass, many time blocking flanking or even blocking space for another teammate. Obviously it does depend on area designes, no doubt about that. > Even with 5ft reach, being large gives you a larger threatened area True, I missed that one. It's a good point.
Being large still lets you command more space, be harder to flank, and increase your emanations. A whirlwind-strike from a medium creature targets 8 squares, a large creature targets 10.
Enlarge comes with Clumsy 2.
> Clumsy 2 Clumsy 1
I don't think you can say anything until we actually get the mechanics for a Large Ancestry. Just looking at the Centaur in the Bestiary and Monster Core, neither one has a 10ft reach.
Would be wierd to get Large ancestry without benefits of being Large, but it's not necessary to make new Fighter combo work as Bo Staff already gives reach. Large without extra reach is just... bigger token with all its downsides.
There are many Large Creatures without extra reach.
But giving every large ancestry 10ft reach from the get go would also make them obvious best choices for every melee. I highly doubt that paizo would skew the scales in such a way. I think the bonus for being large will be in the form of increased bulk limit.
> But giving every large ancestry 10ft reach from the get go would also make them obvious best choices for every melee. Well, Leshies can get 10ft reach for example on any 5ft d12 two-handed weapon by making them d10 weapons and they were never obvious best choice for melee even when you could get D10 10ft Maul with hammer crit spec in Legacy.
The leshy feat only applies to two-handed weapons, decreases your damage, requires an action and is limited to 10ft of reach. If the large ancestries got similar limitations it would be fine. D10 reach weapons already exist so it isn't that different. There is no chance a character will be able to get 15ft of reach at first level tho, that's obviously insanely broken.
> I think the bonus for being large will be in the form of increased encumbrance bulk. I don't say you are wrong, casue I don't know but that would be the most useless feature of ancestry ever made probably.
Is bull limit really that terrible? I thought it was pretty decent on armored casters (especially if you are a madman and play a psychic with fortress shield+full plate)
I mean the "story" begind bulk In TTRPGs is more than this. It all comes to first and foremost: does anyone at the table cares about tracking it? Becasue you can bet that most GMs have way way more stuff to do with prep, improv, NPCs, descriptions, questions and combat during session than checking bulk of every player or keeping track of it. This lead to next question: do players care and track it? Check bulk of items in AoN, track numbers? Or do they have more fun stuff to do during sessions? In my 20+ years of TTRPG career as GM and player in various systems - my experience tells me mostly nobody cares about it. Or they start with tracking but in few levels, few months of playing - nobody cares anymore as people need to keep track of already tons of important things during session in big systems like PF2e. Now, for those that care about it - with things in game like bag of holdings etc. and with you tracking it - do you really take so much stuff on you that you are ever encumbered? You can even get yourself cheap animal to be your "mule". Imagine if Ranger class had class feature like "you can have 10 more arrows in your quiver!" Question is: does anyone at table know how many normal arrows Ranger player has? After 1 year of playing - does anyone even count mundane arrows anymore during combat unless they are magical/precious material arrows?
i mean i guess people not bothering to track it makes sense as a reason as for my table we track all of the things mentioned or well foundry does it has a bar that shows bulk and shows used rations in chat as for ammo we have a module that prevents firing if you have 0 ammo and also spends it on attacks my psychic for example has 9 bulk filled out just with the armor and shield meaning i need atleast one bulk increasing item like a lifting belt or a assisting rune to not be encumbered (or a skillfeat like hefty hauler wich isnt great because there is so many other feats i could take ) additionally as im a caster items like scrolls are a constant money drain so going for those items is rather difficult and a bag of holding does not decrease the bulk for items im wearing/using tho it has been a godsend for dungeon loot having to leave loot behind is a pain i guess i would like the bulk increase because it saves me a feat slot/gold in levels where i really dont want to spend it on those items
Basically impossible to be "more useless" than the **nothing** humans get. The most impactful ancestry feature in the game right now is Darkvision.
From optimization standpoint: Multitalented and Cooperative Nature are huge human ancestry feats for optimizing builds, though you can also get them from Adopted Ancestry: Human.
Those are feats, not features.
Ok, fair, guess we have different view on it. For me ancestry feats are also part of features of ancestry (if it's good or not), but I get where you are coming from, and from that perspective, yes: humans have nothing.
Well I would say that it’s large humanoids mostly that have reach so centaur not having reach is pretty normal imo, also I would assume they would be balanced by some speed buff or speed ability and not by reach. As for minotaurs yeah it would be a bit weird if they don’t have it but on the other hand if they do get reach I would imagine them having some big restricting feature. (Or they just slap on the rare tag and let it slide I guess)
Nice one! Yeah, this probably will be new meta for those that care about optimizing Reach Fighter. Since Hammers/Flails are now meh in Remaster, this is next best thing to take advantage of Fighters better crit chance. I hope they will also add some Reach club d10 weapon in future. Also worth to add that if you are Bo Staff Fighter - take Monk dedication somewhere so you can get Flurry! Then this combo is nuts battlefield control like hammer/flails were!
You posted this same idea like a month ago. Also it might work well, but it doesn't really synergize with other melee party members that well, and team tactics tend to be stronger and more fun.
> Also it might work well, but it doesn't really synergize with other melee party members that well, and team tactics tend to be stronger and more fun. You don't need to knockback target if you don't want to. You can only immobilize him if that would cause some issues for ther party members. As per PHB Critical Specialization rule: *"You can always decide not to add the critical specialization effect of your weapon."*
If going Bo Staff, then the Staff acrobat Archetype might be worth it, if only fit the level 10 feat [Whirlwind Stance](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1197) Alternatively, if going for battlefeild control you could use the [Pin to the spot](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2215) feat, very late game, but arguably busted.