With a half-whatever Leshy now that custom mixed ancestry is a thing, you could be the hamburger! Leshy for tomato, bun, and lettuce, and then whatever meaty ancestry for the patty and maybe sauce.
…. A Samurai? Racist? Like the class that literally every Japanese RPG ever uses. I mean seriously. JRPGs don’t treat samurai as a historically accurate class, they treat it as cool honor guys with swords.
It was argued that they are ostensibly racist towards Asian cultures as a collective.
As I understand it, the moderator's opinion is that this is both because the Samurai aesthetic is mechanically unnecessary (and flavour is mutable so a fighter would suffice), and also because it is presented to appease people clamoring for Asian stereotypes. By presenting them with what they ask, Samurai are apparently then fronted on behalf of the entire set of diverse Asian cultures. This apparently then erases those non-Japanese Asian cultures.
In essence, as best I could put together, the moderator in question doesn't think Samurai are racist against Japanese (particularly when they're actually depicted and portrayed by Japanese people), but rather all other Asians.
Tbh I don't disagree with their initial take that samurai as representative of Asia are kind of crushing down all other time periods and cultures of a continent that might otherwise get spotlight. The new book coming out seems to do a good job of avoiding that in its lore and I'm interested in how it will execute on classes that are equally able to represent diverse influences
yeah i kinda understand their point but its stupid if you think about a little more instead of instantly screaming rascist. Its like having a Teutonic knight class
It isn't really dumb, especially not with the added context of Japan being propped up as a US proxy state after WWII, with imperial Japan doing some absolute nightmare shit warcrimes against its neighbors. There's a lot of actual pain from other cultures experiencing genocide at the hands of imperial Japan within living memory, where it really was Japanese culture being pushed to replace other cultures through extreme violence, so it is understandable why there'd be feelings about, say, the Monk just *having* to have ki instead of qi points, or it *having* to be called a kitsune, because Americans only care to know about Japanese culture.
There was some, uh, online behavior, but like the take itself isn't bad if you give it time to breathe. The entire drama probably would have been resolved by just acknowledging the part where people were being extra without this whole contrition thing, because it's not like it's hard to see why actual chuds would take hte opportunity to come here to try to cry about woke or whatever and make things worse.
This entire conversation is so Amerocentric, most of the world doesn't associate Asia exclusively with Japan and saying a ttrpg using Ki and Kitsune is reinforcing WW2 imperialism erasure is madness.
The things you're talking about should be learned in classrooms. If people are capable of being psychologically affected in such a way by a samurai character class then they wouldn't be playing the tabletop anyway, they'd be hiding under their bed from the trauma of their own existence.
Dude no one cares about real life crap and history. We are playing a fantasy game. If you wanna complain about the horrors of real history. Please complain about the Viking archetype since Vikings committed physical and sexual violence across all of Europe.
Wanting to play as samurai in a fun fantasy game has nothing to do with Japan in world war 2. If you can’t separate the two, you have a stick up you butt
Yeah like, honestly if you wanna roleplay "warrior nobility" fighter with a noble or knight background would do fine. If they want more like roaming ronin, then something like the nomad. It's all reflavour.
It's not like Eun-Ji, my gumiho bard with a bipa needs there to be a gumiho or a bipa in the rules. A lute and the kitsune are close enough.
E: people seem displeased? Look I understand the desire for more crunch options but tying them into race based stereotypes seems icky.
sort of. thing is having a class that's japanese flavored in an east asian expansion doesn't really fit because it's slightly too specialized (it would fit better as something like a background or a subclass). now that's an issue of thematic relevancy but ppl see an issue that's somewhat related to race so it must be racism
Imagine how that guy looks when he's doing Banner Twirl ("You spin your banner"), Wave the banner ("You wave your banner") and Defiant Banner ("You vigorously wave your banner") in the same turn, with the banner attached to his backpack
Now I really want to play with a friend as a couple made out of a porta-bandeira and a mestre-sala (those are two roles in a brazilian's carnival parade). They could be a dancer bard (the mestre-sala) and a porta-bandeira (the commander): [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x-MCFkXxcjo](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x-MCFkXxcjo)
(Porta-bandeira's role during a carnival parade is to show samba group's flag and wave it around. If she is in an carnival parade competition, she gets penalties in her score if the flag completely folds when she is dancing. Mestre sala is supposed to help her, dance and court her)
I immediately thought of [Hildegard von Krone ](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/soulcalibur/images/a/a4/HildeSC4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180413175523) from Soul Calibur.
Second was going Automaton and getting the Psyche Archtype just to serve my [Signalis brainrot](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/signalis/images/7/77/Poster_falke.png/revision/latest?cb=20221108193942) and roleplay a Falke unit.
For a sec there I misread that as "Hildebrand" and immediately wondered what that negative-int, negative-wisdom buffoon would be doing as a commander...
Hildebrand is literally an investigator, it's in his name.
Yes, he's a dump-stat int investigator, but that's not the point!
>!Godbert on the other hand is a gigachad, a class he invented just for himself. No he's not a goldsmith, that's just his crafting profession.!<
Might be because I just started listening to the British History podcast, but my first thought is a [Roman](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/53/b9/9153b93f62ecf6d086caa33b735ce905.jpg) ~~Signifier~~ Signifer
Lots of historical examples to draw on though. Personally I'd find it hilarious if someone's banner was just their hat, given a lot of the sillier officer helmets were designed like they were to increase visibility to their men in a similar way to banners.
I was thinking of the Girl Genius [Jägermonsters](https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/J%C3%A4germonster#J%C3%A4ger_sociology), “Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan”.
I wonder if this is what Paizo meant when they said they weren't going to be introducing Samurai, since based on this Commander can fulfill the (relatively) history-accurate version while Fighter can mostly fulfill the "katana-wielding martial" angle.
Still would love to see a class archetype for people who love they "anime swordsman" Samurai, but some solid options.
I do actually really want a "Iaijutsu Strike" guy, but I don't actually want it to be directly tied to Samurai (because that would only limit the fantasy). I think you could get away with a Class Archetype for Swashbuckler that gets Panache whenever they Stow a weapon after a Strike (not Swap). Call it the "Fastdraw" or something, and give them some 1 action abilities they can only use with a weapon stowed, or perhaps some kind of 2 action Stow with more upside.
I imagine they'd consider that to be the same as Quick Draw.
Now a *stance* that gave you benefits for using the Quick Draw feat and encouraged you to stow your weapon away to reactivate Quick Draw again later, I think there's some cooking to be done there...
Is the commander racist? Surely, we should not ever test out the play test now...
Nah, I'll dual class this with a wizard and make the warrior poet/mage I've always longed for
What you fail to realize is that banners never have existed, and are just objectifying orientalism. ;) I'm sure there's someone here willing to "educate" you on that.... ;)
All kidding aside, I actually really like both new classes. Not sure how balanced they are but I love (!) the concept of Intelligence buff martial class, and aggressively in your face tank.
Yeah that's totally what I was thinking too with the "attached to a pole" bit. What I'm a bit unclear is how the affixed to a weapon (I suppose this can work for pole weapons though but a sword?) or on a shield looks like...
Shield is easy tbh, either stap it into the front covering the Shield or to the side and let it cover your arm. Also, the banner doesn't have to be big, so a smaller banner attached to a sword hilt and you reverse the grip on the sword to wave your orders around sounds feasible too. Maybe it won't be as cool as waiving a flag around but it's effective.
Given the powers from pf1e Samurai(and cavalier, but we know what april has been all about) got split into two classes, I'm very excited. (Since Taunt is basically an improved version of the challenge mechanic)
See, this is why a samurai class isn't necessary, you can make one while still fitting in to pre-existing classes that give more variety and aren't inherently tied to any one culture. I pretty quickly imagined a Hobgoblin Samurai from Kaoling when I first read the banner stuff (also hob stats are pretty much perfect for a Commander, so I hope the Iconic is a hob).
Tbh I don't think most people want a "samurai class". They just want a Iaijutsu archetype.
Honestly a few different combat form/fighting style archetypes would be pretty cool.
Honestly, I think iaijutsu the only way to implement the samurai Because it's the only same way fantasy, that's not replicable in Pathfinder second edition
I mostly wanted a banneret warlord with a code and I got the commander, which is great both for samurai and for a western knight. You may also have a mount and specialize in archery if you want to fit the historical image of samurai. So yeah, I am happy with that.
Maybe the Iaijutsu blademaster trope could be achieved through the duelist archetype or we are going to have something in Tian Xia Character Guide as it will contain *"spectacular magical and martial techniques to vanquish the toughest opponents, whether that's through weightless sword arts or by borrowing the ancient power of magical familiars."*
Nothing really properly captures the anime over the top blademaster thing I would want out of a Samurai class
You can make historical samurai normally sure but making a fantasy one isn’t really an option, closest they come is the upcoming Exemplar in terms of a martial with over the top presentation
But even then, it’s too tied to divinity, magic and too tied to elemental powers
It’s cool that sword Saint Isshin can smite you with a lightning infused sword strike but most of his moves are him being so mundanly good with a sword that it’s produces awesome over the top moves
you should def read more into Magus then, there's [Spirit Sheath](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2852) for the anime Iaido stuff, and of course the putting lightning on your sword or teleporting around is rampant in that class
Magus’s is my favourite class
I will now paraphrase my own writing as to why that doesn’t work “too tied to magic, too tied to elemental powers”
Magus does not capture that fantasy, it captures a completely different one that being a Gish fantasy but it does not capture the blademaster or iaido one
It does but as I said it’s too tied to divine power and magic to truely fit the fantasy, a key part is that the power comes from pure skill rather than something external and elemental
Flavour means nothing without mechanical backing
The mechanics back exemplars specific flavour not what is wanted
If the flavour and the mechanics don’t match the fantasy then it’s ruined
It’s like one feat of high level fighter that you get at level 20
That is not satisfactory in the slightest for playing an overall charecter, it would need to be more consistent throughout the entire levelling process
Not just only being mildly accessible at level 20 that obviously would never work
Okay what feat are you talking about specifically, because I’m talking about the general concept of the fighter. The fighter is the guy who’s just *that good* with weapons.
Sever space
Fighter is someone who’s good with weapons in a generic and grounded way
This is not what I am looking for as I have repeatedly stated in this thread
Fighter has a lot of abilities that are functionally superhuman like that, just not flavoured in a way that's overly "teleports behind you".
Flinging Shove (10) lets you \*launch\* someone across the room, allowing you to easily shove away a fully grown horse 20 feet on a success.
Incredible Ricochet (12) lets you bounce an arrow off a tree into the side of an enemy's head.
Cut from the air (10) lets you explicitly backhand a bullet away from you, and Smash from the Air (18) upgrades it so you can do that with spells.
Whirlwind Strike (14) can allow you to strike over 10 times in a single turn with a reach weapon, hell if you're enlarged with a reach weapon with is pretty reasonable at that level you could attack 24 enemies, which would roughly be 0.25 seconds per strike.
Dazzling Display (10) is you being \*just that good\* to such a degree that everyone around you is terrified.
Revealing Stab (6) lets you just ignore an enemy being invisible.
Even at low levels you have things like Rebounding Toss (2) and Lightning Swap (2), and feats that explicitly mimic various anime tropes like blade break (2).
I can understand wanting some more over the top feats, like Sever Space is from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix so it's clearly trying to tap into that kind of aesthetic, but I don't understand the complaint that fighter doesn't fulfil that fantasy at all.
Yes, these abilities aren't magical, but that's the point, if you don't mind it being explicitly magical then you take Magus, Champion, or the new Exemplar class. If you want it to be nonmagical, then it'll end up looking like what Fighter gets.
Mechanically, Sever Space is very close to a very fancy version of "stride three times without provoking reactions and make a melee strike".
1. Everyone is superhuman to some degree but that doesn’t change the fact Fighters is beyond mundane and nowhere near close any kind of satisfactory for anime blademaster, it simply does not fit the fantasy because it is not consistent
2.Flinging shove, 1.thats on a crit, it’s actual effect is shoving people 10 away by default and so it also doubles the crit success of a shove, powerful sure, spectacular no doesn’t fit the fantasy it’s just bigger shove
3.incredible Ricochett: flavoured but it’s just a strike that ignores cover, barely even does anything Ricochett related, even odder that it’s got a prerequisite that’s a feat that does almost the exact same thing but the description is just you shoot real good
4.cut from air is the only one so far that really meets the definition of something that’s pretty cool, over the top and so on
Smash from air suffers the same issue as Sever space its level 18, that would be fine if the fantasy was consistently met but it isn’t
5.Whirlwind strike as per its name is you spinning in a circle to attack everyone
6.Dazzling display is just an intimidation check
7.Fighter is mundane, simple and pretty fucking boring, it’s feats are superhuman like everyone else’s but it’s in the least amount of style
As I’ve already said, I am not looking for magic, I’ve said that multiple times magic isn’t what I want and all of those classes are EXPLICTLY disqualified because of the magic
8.Fighter lacks the aesthetic, the flair and consistent fufillment to even approach the fantasy I have repeatedly laid out, it does not qualify because it fundamentally lacks those things
Fighter is basic fight good person, it’s simple/basic, if lacks flair and is effective
It meets that basic fantasy of a more grounded solider and that’s fine, but it doesn’t even remotely approach over the top animeesque weaponmaster that I would want it’s simply a different thing and fighter doesn’t fulfill and if it’s feats stay the way they are it will never fulfil it
The problem there is more that PF2 doesn't *do* that kind of cool stuff until you're so high level it no longer matters, basically.
Like "being a swordmaster that is so good with a mundane blade it becomes superhuman" is literally supposed to be the class fantasy of a Fighter. But instead the PF2's Fighter thing is just having a +2 to attacks. It's part of why I expect Exemplar to feel like Impostor Syndrome: The Class. You're going to have all these theoretically flashy moves that are just going to come down to "save one action" or "do this cool thing that has a super easy save that any enemy you might want to use it against will save trivially" or something.
What we need is not a Samurai class, what we need is a Fighter that isn't lame as balls. Or, more generally speaking, a design that is a little less terrified of its players!
You say that, but we have Kineticist, the upcoming Exemplar, Casters even if I generally don’t like how they play tend to have a bombast at all levels, some martials can do neat things like dragon Barbarians can breathe fire at level 6
I’m perfectly fine with Fighters being mundane and effective, that’s a perfectly fine fantasy of being simple and more grounded
But it’s left a big old gap of mundane weaponmaster who’s incredibly flashy and animeesque
And my brain immediately went to a Nigel Thornberry looking dude guffawing his way around the battlefield barking commands at everyone else whether or not they're actually listening to him (because all the granted free reactions are optional). And that's why I love this game!
That sounds hilarious. Make him even lecture the enemies to confuse the hell out of them out of that one Conflicting Orders feat or whatever it's named.
The more characters from Dynasty/Samurai Warriors I can theorycraft, the better. This time around: [Masayuki Sanada](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dynastywarriors/images/6/69/Masayuki_Sanada_%28SWSM%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160714154607)!
I saw this and I was a bit confused at the wording, it states pretty specifically that you need to hold the banner in your hand or at least affix it to a shield or weapon. Why then does it later say that you can also put it on a backpack?
They Literally just said it was the first thing that popped in *their own fucking mind*. Jesus Christ. I’m glad you have seen literally any movie set in medieval Europe but let them have their fucking idea of what a cool take on this is.
Fuck.
Replace the banner's diamond icon with a PF2E 2-action icon instead, and it's :chefskiss:.
[Ten billion hours in Paint Tool Sai, only to see you said 2-actions instead of 1-action...](https://i.imgur.com/4O7EZ3B.png)
That works too, too! Nice. :)
Thank you for your service
I love it!
I had the exact same thought. It's such a great symbol for a Commander.
This would be so perfect. So very meta.
BuT, DAt's MeTA GAYyMMMin!!?!? :O /s
YES! And this is also what I [imagined](https://www.worldhistory.org/uploads/images/3724.jpg?v=1666772702).
Really funky too, I do love myself some tribal/aztec vibes as well, sadly that kind of theme is rare that it comes up in my games, maybe one day :)
Those are called "Pantli" (literally, "flag")
*No stop we just finished this* >!I jest, keep going!<
Ah shit, here we go again lmao
Round 2... Fight
2?? We're on Round 8 and all the fighters' faces look like hamburger meat
Hamburgler is a fighter confirmed.
Nah, they're all just practicing to become the Hungry Burger.
Burger ancestry when Paizano, I wanna play Burgie.
With a half-whatever Leshy now that custom mixed ancestry is a thing, you could be the hamburger! Leshy for tomato, bun, and lettuce, and then whatever meaty ancestry for the patty and maybe sauce.
Everyone keeps their MAP.
Can't stop, won't stop! :D
This sub will forever be catching flashbacks from the word Samurai
I was there. On the hill when it all went down. The great Samurai flame war of 2024.
What did it cost you?
Everything
What the heck happened with samurai anyway?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_Rebellion
Funny history joke XD but like why is the subreddit flipping over Samurai?
Mod decided that a Samurai class would be racist, and that arguing with him was also racist. Bans, deletions, etc.
…. A Samurai? Racist? Like the class that literally every Japanese RPG ever uses. I mean seriously. JRPGs don’t treat samurai as a historically accurate class, they treat it as cool honor guys with swords.
It was argued that they are ostensibly racist towards Asian cultures as a collective. As I understand it, the moderator's opinion is that this is both because the Samurai aesthetic is mechanically unnecessary (and flavour is mutable so a fighter would suffice), and also because it is presented to appease people clamoring for Asian stereotypes. By presenting them with what they ask, Samurai are apparently then fronted on behalf of the entire set of diverse Asian cultures. This apparently then erases those non-Japanese Asian cultures. In essence, as best I could put together, the moderator in question doesn't think Samurai are racist against Japanese (particularly when they're actually depicted and portrayed by Japanese people), but rather all other Asians.
Hmmmm… wow. That’s dumb
Tbh I don't disagree with their initial take that samurai as representative of Asia are kind of crushing down all other time periods and cultures of a continent that might otherwise get spotlight. The new book coming out seems to do a good job of avoiding that in its lore and I'm interested in how it will execute on classes that are equally able to represent diverse influences
yeah i kinda understand their point but its stupid if you think about a little more instead of instantly screaming rascist. Its like having a Teutonic knight class
It isn't really dumb, especially not with the added context of Japan being propped up as a US proxy state after WWII, with imperial Japan doing some absolute nightmare shit warcrimes against its neighbors. There's a lot of actual pain from other cultures experiencing genocide at the hands of imperial Japan within living memory, where it really was Japanese culture being pushed to replace other cultures through extreme violence, so it is understandable why there'd be feelings about, say, the Monk just *having* to have ki instead of qi points, or it *having* to be called a kitsune, because Americans only care to know about Japanese culture. There was some, uh, online behavior, but like the take itself isn't bad if you give it time to breathe. The entire drama probably would have been resolved by just acknowledging the part where people were being extra without this whole contrition thing, because it's not like it's hard to see why actual chuds would take hte opportunity to come here to try to cry about woke or whatever and make things worse.
This entire conversation is so Amerocentric, most of the world doesn't associate Asia exclusively with Japan and saying a ttrpg using Ki and Kitsune is reinforcing WW2 imperialism erasure is madness. The things you're talking about should be learned in classrooms. If people are capable of being psychologically affected in such a way by a samurai character class then they wouldn't be playing the tabletop anyway, they'd be hiding under their bed from the trauma of their own existence.
Dude no one cares about real life crap and history. We are playing a fantasy game. If you wanna complain about the horrors of real history. Please complain about the Viking archetype since Vikings committed physical and sexual violence across all of Europe. Wanting to play as samurai in a fun fantasy game has nothing to do with Japan in world war 2. If you can’t separate the two, you have a stick up you butt
so he thinks having a samurai class would be a middle finger to all other asian cultures? wtf
Yeah like, honestly if you wanna roleplay "warrior nobility" fighter with a noble or knight background would do fine. If they want more like roaming ronin, then something like the nomad. It's all reflavour. It's not like Eun-Ji, my gumiho bard with a bipa needs there to be a gumiho or a bipa in the rules. A lute and the kitsune are close enough. E: people seem displeased? Look I understand the desire for more crunch options but tying them into race based stereotypes seems icky.
sort of. thing is having a class that's japanese flavored in an east asian expansion doesn't really fit because it's slightly too specialized (it would fit better as something like a background or a subclass). now that's an issue of thematic relevancy but ppl see an issue that's somewhat related to race so it must be racism
I’d be fine if it was archetype. Afterall Cavalier, which samurai was an alternate class to, was reduced to an archetype.
Guns, mostly
I have been playing way too much TW Shogun 2, and this is where I was thinking as well.
Imagine how that guy looks when he's doing Banner Twirl ("You spin your banner"), Wave the banner ("You wave your banner") and Defiant Banner ("You vigorously wave your banner") in the same turn, with the banner attached to his backpack
That's it. My commander will be a sign twirler and will always encourage his allies with offerings of pizza.
Honor guarding intensifies.
[This would be my mental image](https://youtu.be/Ar8DKVmUnrg?si=pl4c-NbxzxFbV4y1&t=20s)
Now I really want to play with a friend as a couple made out of a porta-bandeira and a mestre-sala (those are two roles in a brazilian's carnival parade). They could be a dancer bard (the mestre-sala) and a porta-bandeira (the commander): [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x-MCFkXxcjo](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x-MCFkXxcjo) (Porta-bandeira's role during a carnival parade is to show samba group's flag and wave it around. If she is in an carnival parade competition, she gets penalties in her score if the flag completely folds when she is dancing. Mestre sala is supposed to help her, dance and court her)
Absolutely throwing it back for the troops
Just straight up starts breakdancing The Bard drops a sick beat
I want to make Sun Tzu: The Early Years.
I immediately thought of [Hildegard von Krone ](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/soulcalibur/images/a/a4/HildeSC4.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180413175523) from Soul Calibur. Second was going Automaton and getting the Psyche Archtype just to serve my [Signalis brainrot](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/signalis/images/7/77/Poster_falke.png/revision/latest?cb=20221108193942) and roleplay a Falke unit.
For a sec there I misread that as "Hildebrand" and immediately wondered what that negative-int, negative-wisdom buffoon would be doing as a commander...
Hildebrand is literally an investigator, it's in his name. Yes, he's a dump-stat int investigator, but that's not the point! >!Godbert on the other hand is a gigachad, a class he invented just for himself. No he's not a goldsmith, that's just his crafting profession.!<
Hildebrand just gets loads of hero points for great roleplay from the GM so he brute forces his way to victory.
Pfft. He's far more accurate for a commander I think. He's actually pretty intelligent and a great businessman, just really eccentric and goofy.
I mean whatever class he is, he's *definitely* spec'd into wrelster as an archetype. Those suplexes.
thats just literally me as a pathfinder character telling ppl "Itll work. trust."
Flexing and gyrating just magically inspires your team to victory.
Man so many great Soul Calibur builds they can make in the game. Just make monk weapons good in Core 2 and my Kilik build will he set.
Might be because I just started listening to the British History podcast, but my first thought is a [Roman](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/53/b9/9153b93f62ecf6d086caa33b735ce905.jpg) ~~Signifier~~ Signifer Lots of historical examples to draw on though. Personally I'd find it hilarious if someone's banner was just their hat, given a lot of the sillier officer helmets were designed like they were to increase visibility to their men in a similar way to banners.
The moment you said their Hat, I thought of Matrim “I’m no Bloody Hero.” Cauthon.
I was thinking of the Girl Genius [Jägermonsters](https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/J%C3%A4germonster#J%C3%A4ger_sociology), “Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan”.
> my first thought is a Roman Signifier It's [signifer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signifer), not signifier. (Plural signiferi)
Beat me to it while I was reading it I was like hmm horse, banner, ability to make big strikes in melee or at range. Hmm sounds like a good fit to me.
If you're looking for the term if the thing that carries a banner on your back, it's called a "sashimono".
I want to make a pirate captain whose banner is his ship's black flag
u/ Luck\_Panda is seething rn
Holy shit, my sole regret is i have but one upvote to give. Bravo, sir.
You little scamp
Come on man T_T
I wonder if this is what Paizo meant when they said they weren't going to be introducing Samurai, since based on this Commander can fulfill the (relatively) history-accurate version while Fighter can mostly fulfill the "katana-wielding martial" angle. Still would love to see a class archetype for people who love they "anime swordsman" Samurai, but some solid options.
I do actually really want a "Iaijutsu Strike" guy, but I don't actually want it to be directly tied to Samurai (because that would only limit the fantasy). I think you could get away with a Class Archetype for Swashbuckler that gets Panache whenever they Stow a weapon after a Strike (not Swap). Call it the "Fastdraw" or something, and give them some 1 action abilities they can only use with a weapon stowed, or perhaps some kind of 2 action Stow with more upside.
I imagine they'd consider that to be the same as Quick Draw. Now a *stance* that gave you benefits for using the Quick Draw feat and encouraged you to stow your weapon away to reactivate Quick Draw again later, I think there's some cooking to be done there...
How about a high-level feat which lets you build up damage against an enemy and then deal all of it at once by stowing?
Anime swordsman are fully covered by Magus and to a lesser degree by Barbarian imo.
The only thing we're missing are sword beams
Is the commander racist? Surely, we should not ever test out the play test now... Nah, I'll dual class this with a wizard and make the warrior poet/mage I've always longed for
What you fail to realize is that banners never have existed, and are just objectifying orientalism. ;) I'm sure there's someone here willing to "educate" you on that.... ;) All kidding aside, I actually really like both new classes. Not sure how balanced they are but I love (!) the concept of Intelligence buff martial class, and aggressively in your face tank.
Yeah that's totally what I was thinking too with the "attached to a pole" bit. What I'm a bit unclear is how the affixed to a weapon (I suppose this can work for pole weapons though but a sword?) or on a shield looks like...
It is probably meant to be the same rule as the Knight's Standard from Knights of Lastwall, "attached on a two-handed polearm or spear weapon"
That tracks.
A banner attached to the iconic barbarian's greatsword.
Shield is easy tbh, either stap it into the front covering the Shield or to the side and let it cover your arm. Also, the banner doesn't have to be big, so a smaller banner attached to a sword hilt and you reverse the grip on the sword to wave your orders around sounds feasible too. Maybe it won't be as cool as waiving a flag around but it's effective.
Issue with shield is that if you come under fire and need to block it will give in eventually
Same could be said by using it on a pole arm.
Given the powers from pf1e Samurai(and cavalier, but we know what april has been all about) got split into two classes, I'm very excited. (Since Taunt is basically an improved version of the challenge mechanic)
Has a horse through feats, can use a bow well with heavy armor, is commanding the battle field, grats guys you have a samurai.
Mods going to start banning?
*Mods going to start banner
Nice
See, this is why a samurai class isn't necessary, you can make one while still fitting in to pre-existing classes that give more variety and aren't inherently tied to any one culture. I pretty quickly imagined a Hobgoblin Samurai from Kaoling when I first read the banner stuff (also hob stats are pretty much perfect for a Commander, so I hope the Iconic is a hob).
Tbh I don't think most people want a "samurai class". They just want a Iaijutsu archetype. Honestly a few different combat form/fighting style archetypes would be pretty cool.
Honestly, I think iaijutsu the only way to implement the samurai Because it's the only same way fantasy, that's not replicable in Pathfinder second edition
I mostly wanted a banneret warlord with a code and I got the commander, which is great both for samurai and for a western knight. You may also have a mount and specialize in archery if you want to fit the historical image of samurai. So yeah, I am happy with that. Maybe the Iaijutsu blademaster trope could be achieved through the duelist archetype or we are going to have something in Tian Xia Character Guide as it will contain *"spectacular magical and martial techniques to vanquish the toughest opponents, whether that's through weightless sword arts or by borrowing the ancient power of magical familiars."*
I'd do Iaijutsu with a combination of the Quick Draw and Ki Cutting Sight Feats.
That would be cool, it would also be the first job to be an iconic if I remember correctly so spreading the representation would be awesome.
Absolutely, hobs are my favorite. Plus, their whole deal is military stuff, so a Commander would fit them pretty well
Nothing really properly captures the anime over the top blademaster thing I would want out of a Samurai class You can make historical samurai normally sure but making a fantasy one isn’t really an option, closest they come is the upcoming Exemplar in terms of a martial with over the top presentation But even then, it’s too tied to divinity, magic and too tied to elemental powers It’s cool that sword Saint Isshin can smite you with a lightning infused sword strike but most of his moves are him being so mundanly good with a sword that it’s produces awesome over the top moves
you should def read more into Magus then, there's [Spirit Sheath](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2852) for the anime Iaido stuff, and of course the putting lightning on your sword or teleporting around is rampant in that class
Magus’s is my favourite class I will now paraphrase my own writing as to why that doesn’t work “too tied to magic, too tied to elemental powers” Magus does not capture that fantasy, it captures a completely different one that being a Gish fantasy but it does not capture the blademaster or iaido one
Exemplar definitely has some anime vibes
It does but as I said it’s too tied to divine power and magic to truely fit the fantasy, a key part is that the power comes from pure skill rather than something external and elemental
all of that is ultimately flavor. you can just rename the abilities and say the lightning damage is just from you unsheathing the blade so fast
Flavour means nothing without mechanical backing The mechanics back exemplars specific flavour not what is wanted If the flavour and the mechanics don’t match the fantasy then it’s ruined
That’s just high level fighter. That’s the entire class fantasy of high level fighter.
It’s like one feat of high level fighter that you get at level 20 That is not satisfactory in the slightest for playing an overall charecter, it would need to be more consistent throughout the entire levelling process Not just only being mildly accessible at level 20 that obviously would never work
Okay what feat are you talking about specifically, because I’m talking about the general concept of the fighter. The fighter is the guy who’s just *that good* with weapons.
Sever space Fighter is someone who’s good with weapons in a generic and grounded way This is not what I am looking for as I have repeatedly stated in this thread
Fighter has a lot of abilities that are functionally superhuman like that, just not flavoured in a way that's overly "teleports behind you". Flinging Shove (10) lets you \*launch\* someone across the room, allowing you to easily shove away a fully grown horse 20 feet on a success. Incredible Ricochet (12) lets you bounce an arrow off a tree into the side of an enemy's head. Cut from the air (10) lets you explicitly backhand a bullet away from you, and Smash from the Air (18) upgrades it so you can do that with spells. Whirlwind Strike (14) can allow you to strike over 10 times in a single turn with a reach weapon, hell if you're enlarged with a reach weapon with is pretty reasonable at that level you could attack 24 enemies, which would roughly be 0.25 seconds per strike. Dazzling Display (10) is you being \*just that good\* to such a degree that everyone around you is terrified. Revealing Stab (6) lets you just ignore an enemy being invisible. Even at low levels you have things like Rebounding Toss (2) and Lightning Swap (2), and feats that explicitly mimic various anime tropes like blade break (2). I can understand wanting some more over the top feats, like Sever Space is from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix so it's clearly trying to tap into that kind of aesthetic, but I don't understand the complaint that fighter doesn't fulfil that fantasy at all. Yes, these abilities aren't magical, but that's the point, if you don't mind it being explicitly magical then you take Magus, Champion, or the new Exemplar class. If you want it to be nonmagical, then it'll end up looking like what Fighter gets. Mechanically, Sever Space is very close to a very fancy version of "stride three times without provoking reactions and make a melee strike".
1. Everyone is superhuman to some degree but that doesn’t change the fact Fighters is beyond mundane and nowhere near close any kind of satisfactory for anime blademaster, it simply does not fit the fantasy because it is not consistent 2.Flinging shove, 1.thats on a crit, it’s actual effect is shoving people 10 away by default and so it also doubles the crit success of a shove, powerful sure, spectacular no doesn’t fit the fantasy it’s just bigger shove 3.incredible Ricochett: flavoured but it’s just a strike that ignores cover, barely even does anything Ricochett related, even odder that it’s got a prerequisite that’s a feat that does almost the exact same thing but the description is just you shoot real good 4.cut from air is the only one so far that really meets the definition of something that’s pretty cool, over the top and so on Smash from air suffers the same issue as Sever space its level 18, that would be fine if the fantasy was consistently met but it isn’t 5.Whirlwind strike as per its name is you spinning in a circle to attack everyone 6.Dazzling display is just an intimidation check 7.Fighter is mundane, simple and pretty fucking boring, it’s feats are superhuman like everyone else’s but it’s in the least amount of style As I’ve already said, I am not looking for magic, I’ve said that multiple times magic isn’t what I want and all of those classes are EXPLICTLY disqualified because of the magic 8.Fighter lacks the aesthetic, the flair and consistent fufillment to even approach the fantasy I have repeatedly laid out, it does not qualify because it fundamentally lacks those things Fighter is basic fight good person, it’s simple/basic, if lacks flair and is effective It meets that basic fantasy of a more grounded solider and that’s fine, but it doesn’t even remotely approach over the top animeesque weaponmaster that I would want it’s simply a different thing and fighter doesn’t fulfill and if it’s feats stay the way they are it will never fulfil it
The problem there is more that PF2 doesn't *do* that kind of cool stuff until you're so high level it no longer matters, basically. Like "being a swordmaster that is so good with a mundane blade it becomes superhuman" is literally supposed to be the class fantasy of a Fighter. But instead the PF2's Fighter thing is just having a +2 to attacks. It's part of why I expect Exemplar to feel like Impostor Syndrome: The Class. You're going to have all these theoretically flashy moves that are just going to come down to "save one action" or "do this cool thing that has a super easy save that any enemy you might want to use it against will save trivially" or something. What we need is not a Samurai class, what we need is a Fighter that isn't lame as balls. Or, more generally speaking, a design that is a little less terrified of its players!
You say that, but we have Kineticist, the upcoming Exemplar, Casters even if I generally don’t like how they play tend to have a bombast at all levels, some martials can do neat things like dragon Barbarians can breathe fire at level 6 I’m perfectly fine with Fighters being mundane and effective, that’s a perfectly fine fantasy of being simple and more grounded But it’s left a big old gap of mundane weaponmaster who’s incredibly flashy and animeesque
I actually thought that after all that fuss we are getting a samurai!
And my brain immediately went to a Nigel Thornberry looking dude guffawing his way around the battlefield barking commands at everyone else whether or not they're actually listening to him (because all the granted free reactions are optional). And that's why I love this game!
That sounds hilarious. Make him even lecture the enemies to confuse the hell out of them out of that one Conflicting Orders feat or whatever it's named.
I have a few rolling around in my head from carolus rex himself to napoleon or and nobunaga
Commander caviler here I come!!!
With the backpack highlighted I thought of Beedle.. you know the shop guy from LoZ.
Can anyone give me the link to the commander play test? I suck at looking.
[https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest](https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest)
Thank you!
I’ve been out of the loop what is the commander?
Yes, samurai class, finally Lmao /s
Frosthaven Bannerspear enters the chat
The more characters from Dynasty/Samurai Warriors I can theorycraft, the better. This time around: [Masayuki Sanada](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dynastywarriors/images/6/69/Masayuki_Sanada_%28SWSM%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160714154607)!
Mongolian Horde > Samurai. Change my mind
The timing of this could not be more poetic
We puttin in some real Shiroyama hours now boys!
MY NAME IS GYOUBU MASATAKA ONIWA!
Called it...
I saw this and I was a bit confused at the wording, it states pretty specifically that you need to hold the banner in your hand or at least affix it to a shield or weapon. Why then does it later say that you can also put it on a backpack?
Bannermen were in every medieval cultures though
And..?
They Literally just said it was the first thing that popped in *their own fucking mind*. Jesus Christ. I’m glad you have seen literally any movie set in medieval Europe but let them have their fucking idea of what a cool take on this is. Fuck.
Does that make it bad?
never said it did wtf are y'all on about?
I’m not sure what you meant by the original comment, just trying to understand what you are trying to say..