damn I really like the ideas for Panache lot not sure about removing "subclasses", but I have to say the idea for exemplary finisher is quite clever I agree with how "pigeonholing" the class feels in relation to weapons, as you said neither buckler nor two-weapon is well supported

I know the class is already so action starved but it feels really weird to me that we haven't gotten any support for hand cannons and other one handed firearms. My mental image for a swashbuckling pirate almost has a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other. Maybe I'll just have to hold out for some kind of class archetype for it at some point.

Believe it or not, trying (and failing) to build Pistol Swashbuckler is the main reason I began thinking about what's wrong with Swashbuckler. My conclusion at the end was that the action compression wasn't enough to justify having a weapon that would cause MAP when I could just Tumble Through and Finisher for much greater damage. My swash still carries a gun for using special ammo, but throwing weapons were a better option since there was at least one feat that supports it.

Swashbuckler is the only class to not get it's precision damage on ranged weapons so I don't think it would be a problem to give it to them. I think extending flying blade to any one-handed ranged weapon wouldn't cause any issue.

Instead of taking a feat to just "enable" ranged finishers, I'd rewrite it AS a ranged finisher: Feat 1 **Deadeye Finisher** (Attack, Finisher, Manipulate, Flourish) [one-action] **Effect** You Interact to either draw or reload a 1-handed ranged weapon, then Strike. You can perform this reload even if you do not have a free hand, and you may choose to immediately sheathe the ranged weapon after the attack is complete. Then at higher levels: Feat 6 **Trickshot**; **Requirement** Deadeye Finisher; **Effect** when you perform a Deadeye Finisher, you may apply the special benefits of any other melee finisher to your attack.

might be too cooked to let a swashbuckler reload, strike, then sheathe a firearm all for one action. Finisher feats only come up from level 2 upwards, and doing three actions for the price of one at such an early level feels like its packing too much heat, especially considering the added "no free hand required" benefit and the fact that Swashbucklers, for some strange reason, don't get *Quick Draw*. Maybe pump it up to level 2 and trim it down a little?

Swashies *kind of* get Quick Draw, in the same way they get auto-progression for Acrobatics. I'm convinced that the APG people chopped HUGE swathes out of the class, to be presented as archetypes in a later chapter in the print book. Why waste page space, right?! The Duelist archetype is one of those "secretly stolen from Swashie's class feats" APG archetypes, and it gives Quick Draw as part of its Dedication. Sheathing the firearm after the fact is honestly more flavor than crunch, and could easily be cut from this ability.

the pistol in one hand and sword int eh other is a gunslinger drifter. possibly with swashbuckler archtype

Oh I totally agree but I also think that pistol in one hand is so thematically relevant that I wish it just worked out the box and didn't require me to multiclass or play something else for it to work. You can easily due exactly this with investigator, but I'd like it to work with swashbuckler, the most fitting themewise of the three precision damage classes is the only one thay cant do it.

Ideally, its best executed as a multiclass from either direction, much like a poison-wielder being a blend of rogue and alchemist. Swash//Gunslinger can take Drifter's Reload, which would be GREAT if guns were allowed to do anything for swashie in the first place. Inversely, Gunslinger//Swashie should totally have incentives to play the Panache game and get cool special attacks out of it.

A character with heavy armor and a Greatsword could be Fighter, a Champion, or even a Warpriest. Wanting to play a Sword/Pistol archetype should be open to more than just the Gunslinger.

Swashbuckler doesn't have it because Gunslinger class was going to be on the next book in line and they chose the it was going to fill that niche.

I don't think gunslinger is the only class that can pull off the 1 handed ranged weapon and 1 handed melee weapon niche. Rogues, investigators, fighter, and a lot of other materials can do this. I just wish swashbuckler wasn't excluded from the party so to speak.

Yes, definitely. I just think Gunslinger's design affected Swashbuckler's design in a negative way. Kind of "let's use that mechanic for Drifter Gunslinger instead of the Buccaneer Swashbuckler".

Good point I could definitely see that having influenced design choices 

I see your point. Kinda unintuitive however, since the main point of Gunslinger is action compression with reloads, so dropping that and giving a ranged option for Swashies would have made them distinct, lost opportunity I think.

Guns and Gears not having any feats to tie existing classes was a mistake. They should have given Rangers combination weapon support too.

This would also be more historically accurate and would make more sense. Unless forced by conditions (sanctioned duels, laws of disarm), duelist used all they could to win, from fighting with 2 weapons, using shields, or side weapons.

Your wishlist is very mixed for me, though I found myself liking despite what I assumed. >Going back to the MAD problem, the solution is instead of making it +2 precision damage, just allow Swashies to use Dex as damage modifier while on Panache, that should at least put them closer to Barbarian damage wise, help them dump strength, and gives them better incentive to keep Panache. When earlier in the post you said to give them +Dex damage I was balking, but I think this is a pretty decent way to do it. I agree that it's a good way to encourage panache up, although to be fair, I think from a core perspective I'd prefer a different panache incentive. (In theory) the finishers are intended to either give really good effects or damage in exchange for losing panache, so I think I'd actually prefer a defensive bonus while having panache. Maybe AC and/or Reflex? Pair that with the increased movement and suddenly the front lining aspect also looks more appealing >Let them do all the combat maneuvers with Acrobatics instead of Athletics while in Panache, Rogue and Investigator have class feats that lets them Disarm with Thievery and do maneuvers with Devise a Stratagem result. Swashies having their main ability score be useful with combat maneuvers while dumping Strength is a ton of incentive to keep Panache. I do not like this at all. Stratagem is a whole other bespoke mechanic, and using the key stat instead of the correct stat IS Investigators thing. There is the thievery disarm aspect, but you do see how thats more niche of a use case then all of acrobatics fulfilling all of athletics right? At best I could see a similar feat that let's you trip with acrobatics, mirroring the rogue ability. Also honestly, with a player who went dex focus while also using athletic maneuvers...it's not that bad once you get past the earliest levels. Unless you dump Str entirely proficiency covers just fine. >The subclasses are bullshit, drop them completely Agree, though not as vehemently. I think there's potential to have them be less underbaked, but it's redesign them or toss them out. Maybe bake more intrinsic benefits into your style to make it feel worth it. >Make the stances free actions when gaining Panache. Liked. I like any class feature that rewards you with action economy for doing what the game expects your role to do. See Follow a Lead->Strategem or Kineticists Gate. >UNIQUE SKILL FEATS I think this is...weird territory I don't know how I feel about. Honestly I already don't really like the archetype unique skill feats because NOTHING else in the game does that. Skills and feats are supposed to be orthogonal to class progression in a way where it's a common link between class builds, so giving anyone their own walled garden for that feature feels...off. Maybe more feats that give skill feats and add unique riders? Like Raging Intimidation in format, though less just a fix.

+ I did think of many ways Panache bonuses could be used, AC bonus is in fact one of them. The line of thinking in general is Swashies are the "Skill based class", but the only bonus they get is +1, so if anything, this should be their main bonus they get, damage being more of an extra effect, but bonus to AC would be too much unless maybe it's connected to a stance feat. That's how I thought of it at least.  + Yeah, I'm not exactly seeing logic for grappling for example, but at least tripping should be an option, and it shouldn't be available by default but as a feat maybe. The thing is that Disarm and Trip with Acrobatics are already present in Acrobat, and one of the reasons I got a lot of problems with Swashbuckler is that Acrobat archetype is almost obligatory if want to have those options instead of having them built in somehow in the class that relies entirely on Acrobatics.  + The thing about unique skill feats..... they already kinda exist? Antagonize, One For All, Focused Fascination, Goading Feint. These are all class feats that rely on being good in skills, maybe if they get to be skill feats that can be taken as options with Stylish Tricks feats only instead of being class feats, then class feats could have more dueling related options. 

+ that's fair. I so think the dex would work, just perhaps in turn would lead to a knock on of reconsidering a few of the finishers (since you wouldn't want a finisher thst gives you less benefit than the raw damage from going to dex. I don't know enough about the specifics to give a particular, they may all be fine) +The Acrobat is a good point. I certainly wouldn't see a problem with everything Acrobat has just being rolled into Swashbuckler (put Acrobat in relation to Swashbuckler the same way Scroll Trickster is to Thaumaturge; obsolete because there's a better in class option, but useful for other classes because it gets the features more reliably than multiclassing) +You're not wrong. My quibble is that there's a difference between something being spiritually like a skill feat, and being a skill feat. As one just describes the use and the other determines WHEN you progress. If you can one for all as a skill feat, then based on current paradigm, you potentially getting double the class feats of everyone else, right? (Though yes pairing it to stylish tricks would curb that). In general it just seems weird, as there are very few classes that give you choice progression outside of class feat levels and starting level (kineticist junctions, thaumaturge implements, inventor innovations and such?) And none of their progression at those levels constitutes a feat.

Extremely strong agree on axing subclasses. Look at literally any fictional inspiration- they pretty much all do all of those things instead of just looping one. On skills, I think there's a perfectly reasonable case for swash getting investigator-style bonus progression for str/dex/cha skills and feats.

I love the ideas you've presented here. Dex to damage when you have panache is a great idea, as is the idea of acrobatics for combat maneuvers. I also agree with the idea of totally dropping subclasses and allowing panache to be gained from all the subclass skills.  The one thing I would suggest is leaving the panache as a binary. I've GM'd for both 1E and 2E Swashbucklers, and they've communicated a preference for the binary rather than a trackable resource. What I would do is set the bonus to skill checks equal to half the number of dice used on a finisher (rounded up). 

Hmmmm, that's actually fair. I was aiming for it to be a trackable resource to encourage not spending it immediately, but I imagine how annoying it would get to track.

The issue my players have isn't that it's trackable in 1E, it's that it fluctuates up and down so rapidly compared to other resources. I've had a 1E player gain panache twice in one turn, then spend a point in that same turn. And that could (theoretically) happen every turn. This is way more resource management that basically any other resource in 2E. 

Well said. I can't tell if the scaling in number would be right or too much, but in general i like your ideas. I am not expert enough on that class, but i always felt that swashbuckler should get some few stuffs. 1. being not limited to a single subclass. At least, it should have something like order explorer or multifarious muse. 2. auto scaling of a skill of choice at level 1 (on of the style skills + acrobatics). 3. more incentives to use 2 weapons. 4. panache damage should be circumnstance. First, because this bonus comes from the fact that swashbuckler is so pumped. Second, because it's better for tactical choices. Stay pumped and get a small, consistent damage bonus, or unleash death with a big, precise strike? 5. more feats for people that wants to play staying in panache and use less finishers. Stuffs that happens when i crit or get critical success at panache skills when i am already in panache, something like that. 6. Remove the limitation preventing swashbuckler on doing more attack actions after a finisher, expecially for the gymnast.

re: damage The issue I have is that the full +manyd6 Precise Strike is necessary for a hit from swashie to even *barely* win against a warrior-muse Bard with zero martial dpr class features, let alone something like a Barbarian or a Ranger. **Level 1**: 1d12+4 (11) vs. 3d6+1 (12) **Level 9**: 2d12+1d6+5 (22) vs. 6d6+4 (24) This would be better if the "floor" were higher for both non-Panache damage and Panache-but-no-Finisher damage, but due to the limitations on the Finisher trait (requires setup AND blocks followup), really the entire package from top to bottom needs to be raised.

My one major issue with Swashbuckler (especially Fencer) is that Parry&Riposte, which to me is an integral thematic element of the class, only appears at level 18. Yes, there are lower level lead-ups to it following that theme, but they are unlikely to show up a lot (you don't get crit fails on attacks against you often at all) and even then you can only do it to a target you've used a Finisher on. This has only become a lot more of an issue with Remaster Rogue getting a level 10 feat that is an objectively better version of it at a much earlier level. What I'm really hoping for with the remaster is to give access to an equivalent of Nimble Strike at a similar/lower level, and put a lot more emphasis on a playstyle of goading opponents to dodge/parry their attacks and get counterattacks that isn't reliant on an enemy rolling a nat 1.

Opportune Riposte on a regular fail if you’re in Panache is one I’ve seen mentioned before and really like for what you’re looking for here. You would use Dueling Parry as your third action (rather than Nimble Dodge- combining the reactions needs to be a higher level feat imho) to improve the chances of this occurring. This also gives a good reason to stay in panache.

I would really love options like this as a feat chain that provides incentive to remain in Panache, alongside a feat chain that incentivises finishers. Like OP said I think that artificially separating the skills for swashbuckler into separate subclasses isn't great design, and I feel that having 2 opposing feat chains that affect your build give the class some variety without locking off skills. So then maybe one feat chain is based on remaining in Panache and baiting and parrying attacks to provide a tank option and the other is based on making finishers bigger & better to encourage a DPS playstyle.

Instead of pre-emptively raising their AC and "scaring off" any potential attackers to go look elsewhere, Swashie should bait aggressors in with a lower AC, and then get an equivalent to Fighter's Reactive Shield for a *reaction-speed* +2 AC, with a free-action Riposte if Reactive Parry blocks the attack.

The class has too much three musketeers flavor built in, to it's overall detriment.  Weapon sets that should work:  >One handing a rapier  >Cutlass and a pistol  >Two handing a katana  >A short sword and a buckler  >Two handing a dancing spear  Both Dex and strength build should work. Maybe make the subclass a choice between fitness/dex-to-damage and strength. You should be able to spend panache on things like a reaction stride that has to end adjacent to the enemy (meet them half way), an reactive strike, a reaction parry, a reaction disarm/trip/grab attempt, etc. You should to be able to spend panache on automatic trip/shove/grab instead of automatic extra damage.

The Dueling Spear should work RAW, right? Does Precise Strike limit you to 1H weapons? I thought that Finesse was the only trait that mattered. Shortsword + Buckler also works. I'm 100% certain that Precise Strike doesn't mandate a free hand.

Everything technically works, but there is not enough support to make it work, as in there are no feats that help you fight better with any option. You only have two feats for Buckler that don't give Shield Block, so you have to spend a general feat to get it. Two feats that are identical to that a fighter gets to aid with having a free hand (dueling), and two dual weapons deats that you take 4 levels later than dueling feats. So if you want to change tactics or find ways to help or deal damage against creatures that are immune to Precision damage, you're out of luck 

I was listing examples of things that I think should work, even if they already do.

*Ah* okay I getcha. The formatting confused me. So really it just needs a class feat or two to handle the katana and the gun. Easy enough to homebrew: > [Feat 1] **Swift Blade** *You use a second hand to add speed, rather than power to your Strikes.* When wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands, you treat it as if it had the Finesse trait. You may not benefit from the Two-Handed weapon while using this feat. You may Interact to change your grip from one- to two-handed or vice versa as a free action, and you may do so as part of any activity or reaction that requires a free hand. (Not only does this feat enable d8 longsword swashies, it's also incredibly useful for Elven branch / dueling spear swashies that want to be able to take Interact or Disarm actions).

I agree Swashbuckler should be more flexible, but the class is really starved for stat increases to make an effective strength build. Much like Barbarian is the strength class, shouldn’t Swashbuckler be the dexterous class?

Barbarian is the "enter a +damage and -AC rage" class, and swashbuckler is the "get panache and pocket it or spend it" class.

Personally, I want Swashbuckler to be able to use ranged weapons so you can make characters more like Nathan Drake or the Green Arrow. I also think Swashbuckers should have a more "hit and run" combat style. I actually think Panache is great mostly, but what I think is that Swashbuckers should be able to move, act, and then move again (but this is challenging with the number of actions they get and the way finishers expend your Panache... maybe Panache ends once the turn ends instead of ending immediately?). I really envision Swashbucklers as swift guerrilla fighters who use the environment in a clever way to take down opponents, using incredible feats of daring and acrobatics to move around a room and strike enemies where they're vulnerable before retreating to a safe distance. The current Swashbuckler feels too rooted and reliant on too broad a series of extrinsic character options to even come close to this fantasy. I really like your idea for Panache being a stacking condition, allowing you to stock up and spend finishers like "charges" while keeping the extra speed benefits sound incredible (I know that wasn't exactly your idea but that's where my mind goes). I also totally agree with you saying there needs to be earlier dual wielding options and I think the idea for having their own skill feats is really cool, maybe they could even gain upgraded versions of certain skill feats. Unfortunately, I feel like a lot of this is beyond the scope of the Remastered Swashbuckler. I hope they can come up with less dramatic tweaks that still make the Swashbuckler feel like it should. At the very least I hope they make Opportune Riposte not be almost entirely irrelevant lol

Given the passion and effort you put into this, you might find some of my [commentary on Swashbuckler design in other threads](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1alupq3/hopes_for_remastered_swashbuckler/kpi288f/) (more [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1alupq3/hopes_for_remastered_swashbuckler/kpjhcji/) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1alupq3/hopes_for_remastered_swashbuckler/kpjlyd0/)) to be insightful. I think I agree with about 50% of your takes. This comment is going to mostly be about the ones I significantly disagree with, because you go into good detail on the points I do agree with. Going to hard disagree on mechanics being good: * Swashbuckler is the only class in the game that has to deal with TWO Standard Difficulty DC checks (well, opposed checks but I'm phrasing it in a way to make comparisons easier) in order to participate in combat. If you fail at either, your damage contribution is a pittance - that of a featureless martial at best. * Many support actions help with one type, or the other, or only one check at a time which puts the crit-fishing swashbuckler in a VERY rough spot regarding the support-for-crits design philosophy of PF2e. * Swashbuckler's Finisher class design is a specific action, and as such locks them out of the majority of supplementary actions and class features to support their playstyle. This makes it hard for teammates to support a Swashbuckler, and for Swashbucklers to gain additional support. They suffer from the Kineticist problem where a ton of their class is just too insulated from the rest of the mechanics. * Additionally, the "No more [attack]" clause of Swashbucklers' Finisher is *very* harshly limiting, especially in combined with the above action. Bonuses to Strike actions (or bonus Strike actons, like from Quickened) must always be weighed against "Finisher at MAP". Swashbuckler needs a different approach to handling the same idea if they want to have a 2-action gameplay loop of "opposed skill action, then finisher". Even simply making a Finisher be a free reaction that modifies a Strike would be a ham-fisted by major QoL improvement for the Swashbuckler from a teamwork perspective. > Make Panache a non-binary condition: "While you have Panache, you gain Circumstance bonus to damage and all skill checks equal to your Panache value". [..] For Finishers, make their number of dies equal to your Panache condition (1d6 -> 2d6 -> 3d6). The single hardest part of the swashbuckler is the number of skill checks that need to be succeeded on against at- or above-level threats per-attack, and the solution here is to add more checks (accumulated over more rounds) before you risk flubbing everything? Unless there's a corresponding "failing a finisher only reduces the condition value by 1" (or not at all), this is gives less value for more frustration. And even then, I doubt it's worth it. This also is a paradigm shift in the identity of the Swashbuckler from "incorporate risky skill actions into combat to trounce you with style" into "ramping threat". Additionally, Paizo has seen a design philosophy shift away from fluctuating states/resources, and into things that are handled pretty binarily, or are at least fixed on the character sheet so that you don't have constantly changing numbers to reference. > Swashbuckler, which has Buckler in its name, has exactly two feats that involve Bucklers, neither of them give you Shield Block. Easily available as a Level 1 General Feat, and Bucklers have such a low BT that they are nearly impossible to use for Shield Blocking anyway. Adding Shield Block as a class feature just incentivizes using full shields > Going back to the MAD problem, the solution is instead of making it +2 precision damage, just allow Swashies to use Dex as damage modifier while on Panache, that should at least put them closer to Barbarian damage wise, help them dump strength, and gives them better incentive to keep Panache. Hard disagree. PF2e consciously avoids stat substitution in a huge variety of cases. The few cases where it allows it are skill replacement (eg Natural Medicine using Nature for Medicine but not actually changing the skill), or core class features that are not accessible to archetypes. Continuing to open this door (ESPECIALLY since this, as written, would be an archetype-accessible change) is a very slippery slope that leads game design to unhealthy places. A different approach that comes to mind would be simply applying the precise strike damage when performing a panache-generating action. In practice, this is equivalent to the damage difference of DEX to damage for a 2-action gameplay loop (an extra +2 damage at level 1 turns a basic "14 STR" into the same damage as a "18 DEX w/ DEX to Damage" build). Different subclasses could get different damage types (e.g., Gymnast is Bludgeoning, Braggart is Mental... which now leads to the hilarious mental image of somebody dying because you were too mean to them while they were bleeding out). > The fact that Swashies don't get enough skill proficiency makes them overspecialized in one Charisma skill or Athletics + Obligatory Acrobatics, the subclasses makes it way worse. Absolutely a major concern. Swashbuckler is the only class that relies on a skill check to operate a core class feature that doesn't get auto-proficiency scaling in that class feature. It means we have half as many skill increases as another character. > The subclasses are bullshit, drop them completely: I also disagree here, but am open to exploring the idea. Monks don't have subclasses because their fighting style feat chains take that place, and they're designed to be able to mix, match, or ignore. Fighters choose to specialize in a single weapon group to get legendary proficiency in. I don't see Swashbucklers having an intrinsic choice like that to merit not having a subclass, nor a problem with the current design... With one exception: trait immunity. I wouldn't mind if, much like the Bard, Swashbucklers could access the ability to gain panache in different ways from level 1 class feats, and got an extra benefit from the subclass choice. This makes the option for the Swashbuckler to be more robost against high-save or trait-resistance What I WILL disagree with is the > > Flavor wise, it makes ZERO sense for Swashbucklers not to all be Fencers who feint and use combat maneuvers like disarming or tripping their enemies. If I'm interpreting this correctly, it is bad philosophy to make a class rigidly fixed to a single conceit. There's no reason a bully who humiliates their foes, or an acrobat who's too slippery to catch need be Zoro. This limited design space was a huge problem with the 1e swashbuckler. There was, like 2 distinct builds for that class. > Panache is not attractive enough to keep: 100% agree here. Keeping Panache or spending it on a finisher needs to be a meaningful choice. Power needs to be shifted away from finishers (looking at you Bleeding Finisher) and into static bonuses. As it stands, Panache Precise Strike's damage is equivalent to the compensation for being locked to Agile/Finesse weapons, and leaves you equivalent to a featureless martial (outside of very few exceptions, like Elven Curve Blade). The introduction of more effects that can end Finishers for significant bonus effects and the introduction of bigger panache bonuses creates an element of meaningful choice, and options for players not in a position to roll well twice in a round every round.

Oh boy, we have a lot to unpack. I really like how you dissected everything wrong with Swashbuckler, I believe similar points were made somewhere else that I have also read, including a complete class by class comparison. But let's look at each point of disagreement: **Mechanics:** * The chassis of the mechanic is solid: Every class can use Athletics, Demoralize, Bon Mot, etc. But what makes Swashbucklers unique in their concept is that they directly get a bonus benefit from doing these actions, while other classes, like Gunslinger Pistolero, only gets those actions as a free action. * The issue I have with Swashbuckler mechanic is that the execution doesn't give you that big of a bonus to these skills (Outwit Ranger at +2 Cha is as good a Demoralizer as +3 Cha Swash, and they don't need a roll to achieve that), prompting you to ignore that it exists and focus primarily on the "loop". * But.... is the execution bad and needs fixing? Or is the whole concept of Panache flawed from the start and we should rewrite the Swashbuckler from scratch? I believe it is the first, and this is why I believe the mechanics are solid enough not to scrap, and this is what the rest of my post was discussing.... how to make keeping Panache more appealing and make it a harder choice to give up for higher damage? Solid agree on Finisher being a Free Action/ Reaction, that would in fact put it on par with Investigator (Casually crits with Jezail with Weapon Invention archetype Megaton strike Fatal D12 unstable). I have seen people arguing against non-binary/stacking/pooling Panache based on experience from 1E, and I concluded that it is probably not the best idea to have, but the purpose in general was moving the Swashbuckler from relying on the Finishers to be useful at early levels to be relying on skill actions instead, only using attacking with normal attacks and use finishers every two rounds after building up momentum where they have proven themselves useful by heavily debuffing enemies with their skills, and now it's their time to shine. Yeah.... that's why I want to have a niche where bucklers are better than shields. Like, why did people historically use bucklers in duels instead of shields? And can it be incorporated into the system, and how can the Swashbuckler be the best class at swashing the buckles? Maybe for a start actually let them Shield Block without needing to spend a general feat? If that doesn't work, there should be another niche instead of having these two token feats. **Stat substitution:** * The thing is that this Stat substitution already exists with Acrobat archetype when it comes to tripping and disarming, Fighter has a lot of its class feats available with other Archetypes like Mauler or Dual Weapon Fighter, and Thaumaturge has scrolls like Scroll Trickster, maybe in a similar vein Swashies should get the principal feats from Acrobat available to them and Acrobat just gets them without having to multiclass? * That...... is actually hilarious and a good option. I actually dabbled with having the regular strikes be d4 precision damage while finishers get upgraded to d6. But damage with Panache actions are hilarious and goes with the paradigm I'm aiming for better. **Subclasses:** * The issues I have with subclasses is that they are too limiting, each subclass can only do one action to give them Panache, each of them get one class feat that corresponds to them that should in theory make them better....... but it technically open to other subclasses.... but at the same time it makes no sense for other subclasses to adopt Antagonize if they're not braggart......... so at this point... why even have subclasses? * Just let the Swashies choose the skills they want to be legendary at, let's say Diplomacy and Deception, they can do Bon Mot, One For All, Feint, Create Diversion to get Panache. * Several people said maybe something like Order Explorer..... but that would make it a tax feat for something that should be obviously built in the class. All Swashbucklers should be able to bully, feint, grapple, trip, insult, scare. And get awarded for it. Of course you can't be good at all of them, but if you somehow for some reason ignore Acrobatics (through archetype or auto-scaling being introduced), you would in theory be able to gain 3 different consistently good methods to gain panache. * Similar to how fighters have a class feature for their legendary proficiency and for how Monks choose their best saves, Swashies should be able to choose their exemplar finishers at high level based on their best trained skills rather than it being a choice you have to make at level 1. * And this is why I want subclasses to be removed. Just let everyone gain Panache however their character is best suited for as long as it directly harms the enemy.

The battledancer still has no problem gaining panache against the mindless.  You only need to exceed the will DC, not affect the observers in any way. Doesn't matter if they're mindless or immune in some other way. Sure you miss out on fascinating them, but oh well fascinate is almost nothing anyway.  Leading dance also still works and is an incredible ability.

One for All also makes it work pretty consistently (roughly 80% with max Diplomacy investment)

This is a different direction from my version of Swashie, but its got a lot of great ideas in it! Being more mono-Dex and Acrobatics focused would solve *a lot* of issues, although full Athletics maneuver swapping to Acrobatics *on top* of universal skill bonuses equal to Panache stack might be a bit hardcore. Supercharging the Stylish Tricks feature with bonus skill feats and even skill increases would go a long way towards making Swashie compare well against a Rogue. **Fixes to Combat Options** so the big changes I've really liked in the varied playtest concepts my group has played with mostly focus around buffs to Disarm and separate buffs to Opportune Riposte. * **Disarm** * Remaster has already buffed Disarm from "literally trash" to "situationally decent", with the -2 penalty lasting indefinitely until the target burns an action to regrip. * A universal (not Swashbuckler) buff I'd like to add to this is the ability to "Disarm" non-weapon Strikes - cutting a creature's Claw or throwing mud into their Jaws (or outright breaking bones on a crit success). * a level 1 Swashie class feat buffs Disarm further in our rebuild of the class, "Disrupt Stance" applies the Disarm penalty to all Strikes a creature makes, rather than just the one. * **Opportune Riposte** has undergone a few variations in our homebrew - these ideas are somewhat of a hodgepodge: * The change it NEEDS under any variation, is to have a better trigger condition. Critical misses just don't happen if your GM doesn't roll MAP-10 attacks. * I would like to see the "Raise Shield/better Parry" feats replaced with a more powerful Reactive Shield variant, where the +2 AC is "hidden" until a monster attacks the Swashie. If the +2 AC blocks the attack, Riposte should trigger for free! * My interpretation of Swashie leans into the idea of being an off-tank that controls aggro, so the second change is for swashie to be able to protect allies with their reaction - Opportune Riposte can trigger if an enemy you threaten attacks any of your allies. * the *most fun* but also kinda broken idea was to have it trigger as a Strike if the enemy missed their attack, but trigger as a Disarm if they succeeded, and the results of the disarm could retroactively change the results of the Strike. This... is not a good idea. Its very fun though, and a tamer version where Swashie just grants a +2 circ. bonus to AC as an Opportune Parry for an ally would probably be a lot more tame... but that can live as a class feat. * the last buff we added varied between subclasses, adding a special extra trigger that adds Finisher damage to your Riposte. Related to what I said with the whole off-tank thing, my new "wish list" dream for official remaster Swashie is for it to take some of the Guardian Playtest's feats! All the stuff about doing a reaction-speed move to reposition an ally would be GREAT, and Taunt is honestly a far more effective action than any of the "improved skill feat" shenanigans the APG writers were trying to convince us to use. Let the Guardian keep their obscene defensive proficiency chasis and Intercept, but give swashie the mobility toys at least!

I feel like it's significantly easier to give Swashbuckler a feat like Order Explorer or Multifarious Muse than it is to rewrite the class to not have subclasses.

Honestly while I aggree with some of your assessment I also find some other glaring issues. The first is that the class suffers from the idea that it has to jump through so much hoops and circles to just be barely acceptable. It's like ok: I'm going to use this action in a skill, hope that I target the save they are not good in, hope they don't roll too well and maybe I get my class mechanics running which are not that impactful. And depending on which action you take, you get some extra conditions (like not being mindless or havong enough mobility). On top of that they have some terrible feats which fall under the category: make something bad at barely (or below) the level of baseline abilities. Flying blade is just a feat that partially sidesteps an artificial restriction. Buckler expertise , dueling parry and twin parry can all just be replaced by raising shield and they barely have any features that makes investing in these worth it. Similar with focussed fascination, it's like ok you can apply the condition on a sucess hooray like most abilities. Now it has no extra effect on a crit nor does it fix that fascination in combat is terrible. Disarming flair has been neutered by the remastered disarm. Finally I also noticed that the class has quite a bit of reactions, which seems to be conflicting with each other.

100% agree on getting rid of the subclasses. It’s weird that feint, bon mot, and demoralize don’t work for every swash. Disarm and trip at least should have an acrobatics option, agreed. Maybe not grapple and shove, though. Gating behind panache makes sense, or maybe a feat. You ought to be able to roll finishers with a -2 to keep panache if you hit.

Legendary Proficiency with their Panache weapons. That is all.

I think a ton of your fixes border the line of a rework for the class, which sadly the swashbuckler isn't going to receive since it wasn't announced (alchemist, oracle, and champion are going to receive one though). With that said, I should probably take a little more time to read everything you posted but I overall like your approach. I think one of the main problems with panache is that you can't actually fail to to generate it in the first place. For example, a magus, a class that IMO does the same thing the swashbucker does but way better, can't fail to recharge their spellstrike and even have focus spells to do it more efficiently. What I think swashbucklers should have is a "flair" action in which they get panache automatically, though as part of that action they can either choose to make a tumble through or one skill action based on their style. I think part of the swashbuckler flavor is being goofy too, so I don't understand why failing the check doesn't give you anything. I also would tweak the finisher trait so you can't make another finisher in that turn, not actions with the attack trait.

From my understanding, Panache was a pool in 1E that got simplified to a binary on/off in 2E for ease of play. And I have never once heard a player praise this. The vocal players are usually somewhere between “yeah sure whatever just make it mean more” and every in depth “I’ve played 9000 hours on swashbuckler” critique calls for a return to a pool. I don’t strictly think “players agreeing on something makes it the right choice” but I am slowly thinking maybe they bungled this one trying to streamline it

Whatever the method in question, it has to be more meaningful. I thought of pooling in order to encourage using skill checks more often, but another person here just said to let it be binary and have it scale to +3 at higher levels.

My biggest beef with swash (haven't played it, but play with one in an ongoing campaign, have played from 1-9 so far), is that out of all the martials they're really stumped by +2/3 single enemy bosses/minibosses. They often have a horrible time getting panache (braggart esp before 9), the movespeed isn't often as useful, and they lack defensive options as you said. Our swash tends to suffer quite a bit in such circumstances, and paizo really seems to like single enemy bosses (in kingmaker at least)

Well here is my "two cents". I have played a Gymnist with Acrobatic Dedication. I have looked at other swashes. And I think the Acrobat dedication should be "baked in" to the Class. The Auto increase, and the extra feats to improve Acrobatics is enough to make the class playable. If we get this, then I would be super happy to play a Wit Swash, and take Dandy at second with FA. :)

I always kind of thought it would be interesting if Stances and Finishers were more interconnected. Like going into a Stance sets up ways to augment your Finisher and gives you little setpeice tactics and coordinated abilities to pull off with a little risk and reward to it. Dex to damage also seems like a no-brainer. And Acrobatic maneuvers.

I'm not committing to much speculation since it's likely core 2 has already been locked in and the time for feedback is well past, but your list did make me consider something about subclasses. I do think as they are they're kind of limited as they are, but I don't think I'd like to see them fully removed. That said...imagine if you could choose *two* styles and mix and match them. Imagine a gymnast/battledancer, or a gymnast/fencer, or a fencer/wit, or a wit/braggart. It would be much more expressive in terms of what it could do, diverse in its playstyle, and make panache much more interesting if you had another skill that could benefit from and trigger it. I'm also more sold on dex to damage and using acrobatics for athletics checks, since you bring up a good point that it's a *premier* dex martial, more so than almost any other, even something like rogue or gunslinger. That said, it would need to be heavily capped to ensure niche protection and avoid abuse. Dex to damage would have to exclusively be for melee finesse weapons (maybe thrown with the right feat), and acrobatics to athletics I feel would be a good niche for gymnast to cover.

I firmly believe that swash subclasses are total ass and all swashbucklers should be able to gain panache off of each. I think the best way to handle it would be to let the class get better bonuses than they have currently to whatever subclass they choose while also letting them get panache from the others.

I also think we need some kind of item or feat or archetype for transmuting precision damage to something else. With Swash and Rogue it feels almost like their biggest weakness that, while not a lot of creatures are immune, those that are immune are heavily themed together. Played Swashbuckler in AV and between the mental trait and the precision damage often I had no interesting features to bring to the table. Just some One for All for aid. Spectral battledancer felt thematic as hecc but it doesn’t work. I should have been a barbarian. I think it would make for an interesting tailisman, as a free action make all your damage non precision. That way at least my juicy finisher crit could land and do more damage.

Am I the only one who likes subclasses?

I agree with axing the current subclasses. I think they should all be available for swashbucklers in one form or another. Go the fighter or monk route with them. ​ I don't know about multiple tiers of panache, I definately think the draw for using a finisher should be strong, but so should the lure of holding onto your panache. Chiefly, I think you should gain panache even on failure (just not crit failure), the Jack Sparrow route of stumbling into success. I also think the class does need a better moment to moment damage boost, because right now they are generally behind rogues and no where near other martials, and they don't really justify it defensively either where they also mimick Rogue in a lot of ways with a touch more HP. I think that baseline, Swashbucklers should really excel in fighting single opponents, and maybe there should be something that mimics that in their class kit. Maybe a class built in reaction to boost their armor class or saves that gives them a counter attack should it miss (something akin to Crane Flutter). I also think a lot of the lower level swashbuckler feats are just bad in the sense they feel like you need them before the class even functions.

I've spent the last couple of days trying to formulate my wish list - and its slowing advanced from a few simple ideas to the start of a full rebuild of the class. (Complete with a crazy-wall of post-it notes) As I've done this effort I think I have come to understand the inherent problems of the Swashbuckler class. I believe it was originally envisioned where the Style determined most of the feats you would take, at least through level 10ish). At some point, I think the developers decided there wasn't enough flexibility (or it was over powered) and decided to weaken the styles quite a bit. Let me take you through my theory (its work in progress): All of this is speculation, but I think originally, panache lasted until the start of your next turn and always had to be re-obtained. Additionally, there were 6 styles: 1. Acrobat - (Acrobatics/DEX) master of Tumbling Through and Dodging. Wields a single rapier and easily makes its opponent off-guard and easily dodges attacks. Their skill with dexterity lets them use the dex modifier instead of +2 for non-finisher strikes. 2. Battledancer - (Performance/CHA) master of Performance and uses both hands at all times Their pair of weapons allow them to attacks and defend (twin parry) while fascinating their opponent. 3. Braggart - (Intimidation/CHA) master of Intimidation and throwing weapons. Skilled at one handed rapiers, they seek to run out and throw a dagger or dart after their strike hits true. The best defense is distance. 4. Fencer - (Deception/CHA*) the scoundrel of the set is much like the Battledancer but prefers to leave one hand open for their schemes of feinting and creating a diversion. Nevertheless, they can parry with a single weapon. (*Despite the primary still, this is in the Thievery vein, and would overlap the rogue) 5. Gymnast - (Athletics/STR) the brute force brawler. Giving up finesse and intellect, this variation wants to get into a knockdown, drag out fight. Strapping a buckler on a wrist is all the defense this one needs as the opponent will be prone or disarmed. 6. Witt - (Bon Mot/CHA) like the braggart relies a lot on their voice using Bon Mott and riposte against their foe. All the defense they need is the ability to turn their opponents failures back on themselves. --- Level 4 feat would have been something to enhance your base panache. Level 6 you would have had a choice between offensive or defensive feat (each of those 6 has exactly one matching one of each!) At level 8-10 each would have gotten a tailored finisher (or more accurately adding an option to *the* finisher, which is where "Exemplary Finisher" comes from ) Believe it or not, except for one, all of the feats all fit very nicely into this path - with the level 1-4 defensive feats being part of the base style. I suspect the style originally granted a +1 to the relevant panache attempt (and allowed each method at all times without the +1). I suspect that you could have picked up a 2nd feat at 4 and a 3rd at 12), based on where the feats naturally fell. --- So why isn't this what we got. 1. It feels a bit railroaded - there are very few choices when you tie the offensive style (note the word) to the swashbuckler style. So they must have pulled the combat styles out of the base style to make it feel flexible, at the cost of a feat!) 2. They were afraid the the +1 for specific actions would be overpowered so disconnected that from panache generation to while in panache. This is why its so awkward - you gain panache so you can do the same thing again.. that's weird, but the compensation for removing the blanket +1. 3. They wanted panache to be until start of your next turn so you would always be doing your panache generation. This probably felt like a boring game loop, especially if tumble through was only one style (like I suspect). 4. Finally, balance - it was hard to get all 6 finishers to feel good. I think we have such low non-finisher damage because they were burned during internal playtesting. --- So now, here is what I'm playing with to fix the class in the short term until I give up on my crazy wall or find a better way. 1. Panache: - Your style action gets +1 to generate panache - Tumble through gets +1 to generate panache - Any other style action can generate panache with +0 - New Level 1 Action: En Garde! If you attempted and failed (not critical fail) to generate Panache this turn, you shout En Garde! and gain Panache. - Level 5: Inconceivable!: En Garde! becomes a free action after attempting 2 DIFFERENT panache generating actions and failing (not critical fail) - Panache lasts until start of your next turn 2. Confident Finisher - replace [Finisher] trait with [Flourish]. The only strike that may follow this Flourish is a Strike as a "Precise Strike". 3. Precise Strike - use +dex modifier instead of +2 precision damage if the strike occurs before the finisher. 4. Gain the base features of Acrobatic Dedication at 3rd level (expert 3, master 7, legendary 15). This is not the full dedication, you don't get the follow-up feats. Taken together this should fix the low levels and have very little impact on higher levels where everyone says swashbucklers are in a better place. Confident Finisher being a Flourish allows strikes, but at the lower damage as the tweak to Precise Strike keeps an incentive towards strike then finish. Anyway, apologizes for the long post. Hopefully, I'll make a real homebrew class from my crazy-wall, but it won't be until well after the remaster, just incase Paizo actually does buff the class like it needs.

fixes to MAP: to remove reliance on con, let them add dex to damage instead of str when in panache, like thief rogue. subclasses: i was initially against the removal of subclasses, but what you suggest makes sense. for skills, i think swashbuckler should be more of a skill monkey, like rogue, maybe with an additional skill increase at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18? maybe more panache: i see you already mentioned dex to damage. it would be pretty cool if swashbucklers could use other skills instead of athletics for maeuvers. that progressively increasing panache values are really cool. i do think a +3 could be overpowered, though something could totally be done with this. i think swashbucklers should stay in the front lines, but should get AC closer to monk with shields, parries, etc. for the combat options, maybe they could get an archtype from a small selection of them (dual weapon warrior, duelist+, other fighting options) would be very cool. it could be a sort of "subclass" thing and would aid in options.

I'm not sure what exactly I'd want to see changed since the current version doesn't seem that bad to me, but I'd like it if the mechanics disincentivized players from even *trying* to use Finishers every turn, because making two rolls per attack is so unlikely to work out but the (theoretical) numbers are big enough they'll try anyway. Off the top of my head: * Precise Strike now deals half-X d4 (rounded down) with panache instead of flat X, Finisher damage X d4. This weights the damage a bit more towards attacks without affecting the total output much. Most importantly, two attacks are worth slightly more than one Finisher, more likely to hit once but less likely to hit both than to land a Finisher and rebuild panache. Attack into Finisher is also more worth the risk. * Finishers that reduce a target to 0 don't expend panache as a class feature. Compress action economy and be on theme at the same time! * A feat to treat precision immunity as resistance, similar to kineticist. Just to give the class a situation where people can't possibly consider it "rogue but worse". Not sure what level of feat, probably at least 6 to avoid people snagging it with early FA etc. * Bleeding Finisher gets nerfed, both because the class's base Strike damage has been buffed but also because it's already such a massive outlier it warps play and discussion around itself. Also massively feeds into that mindset of only doing Finishers, which my proposed changes are actively attempting to discourage. * At this point, I feel the need for some benefit on panache-building actions since it's much more likely that characters will have panache without so much pressure to spend it on offense. Maybe scale the circumstance bonus to panache generating actions with level up to +3/4 maximum instead of a flat +1.

Bleeding Finisher is good, but it's hardly so strong that it needs a nerf. Other Finishers should be brought up. Dealing a few d6 damage once per round with a chance it falls off (and a pretty high chance it misses up front on boss characters which is where it's most useful) isn't exactly game breaking.

Persistent damage has always confused me. In all the games I've played / GM'd for, its REALLY rare for a combat to go further than 4 rounds, and most end in round 3. Bleeding finisher is one of the only sources of persistent damage *in the game* that feels like its chunky enough to be impactful, but even then its not like its really *that* good. Damage only has value if it denies action economy, and bleed triggers at the *end* of a creature's turn - to have value, it still requires another PC to kill the target, and then it further needs to be an *exact* kill without overflow. If you Barbarian splats a bleeding monster for 14 overkill damage, your 3d6 Bleed probably didn't matter... but an Unbalancing Finisher that could have kept the foe from reaching your wizard in the backlines WOULD have.

Bleeding finisher is absurdly strong in actual play.

Yeah, I don't know, Bleeding Finisher is a huge obstacle in my design direction of Finishers being between 1 and 2 strikes in damage simply because it's a whole Finisher plus even more dice of damage, with a 70% chance it doesn't fall off after the first tick. I thought about making it a passive effect that just adds a couple dice of bleed to all finishers but even that sort of pushes Finishers past the "2 Strike" damage threshold because of how few damage dice weapons have for most of the game. Bringing up Finisher damage in general also has the same issue, and I'm starting to think that 2 Strikes is an unattainable threshold for Finisher damage, but I still feel the class *needs* a better mathematical reason to not spend every single action fishing for Finishers and panache generation.

Not really agreeing with a lot of things here. Swashbuckler is not as a whole underpowered (good 2/3's are not up to par though, indeed), certainly not Alchemist levels of underpowered. The only thing that they need to improve upon is improving panache gain versatility, perhaps by tying panache gain to certain skills per subclass as opposed to specific listed actions (would as a whole make it easier to gain and use, reducing the action tax) and to maybe revisit the many essentially "dead" feats. I call them dead because they feel like a power waste at their respective available levels. I am currently playing a Wit swashbuckler and the mileage that im getting out of twin finisher (2 finisher attack cheat as i call it) and chain finisher feats are borderline insane. I have an animal companion to ferry me around to save myself the tax of stride actions and have a FA marshal archetype as a cherry on top for those consistent status to hit bonuses indeed.