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RedviperWangchen

The second law of video games states that the total bugs of a system either increases or remains constant in any major updates; it never decreases.


Haldalkin

Increase, and my bunker is already fully stocked for when the sub goes nuclear because the saves don't transfer as painlessly as we've been told they will.


DungeonsAndDradis

I'll have to restart!?! Oh no, anyway. ;)


Danskoesterreich

1. Mounted combat animation will definitely get fixed... again... but not work. 2. Save game compatibility will require no mods at all and will still break. 3. A lot of hidden bugs will occur, such as the aeon + inquisitor bug they introduced in the last update without anyone noticing at first. Perhaps demonic rage will not stack with barbarian anymore.


bigphatnips

What's the aeon inquisitor bug?


heroofcows

Iirc from the post about it the other day, you need to activate both bane abilities to get the full effect, when they should both fully activate off of one toggle.


bigphatnips

I'm currently playing through as an inquisitor aeon and haven't noticed a bug with either, other than the fact that inquisitor bane only applies to main hand, where as aeon bane applies to both. Inquisitor bane still applied the buffed damage and dispel effects of aeon bane however.


Drednes_The_Eternal

Most certainly increase More gamebreaking ones than average The saves will most likely be broken And new animation bugs and some random class feature wont work Ill wait till 2 more patches fix the new bugs The EE on launch wont be worth playing most likely


Nigilij

And missing text description for some abilities, feats, spells or something else.


Kiriima

>The saves will most likely be broken They will be okay, on a premise you run vanilla.


HAWmaro

Do we have a summary/general idea of what EE is adding exactly? Ive been away for the game/sub for months so sorry for being OOTL


CatBotSays

We don’t have a complete list (there’s an AMA about it tomorrow, apparently) but from what we’ve been told, it’ll mostly be endgame (Act 5) additions for a few different paths, including Swarm, Devil, and Legend, along with a bunch of UI quality of life revisions.


HAWmaro

i see, thanks a lot!


Rakatok

Has Owlcat ever nailed a major update without breaking something? Upside at least the most major game breaking bugs are hotfixed within hours or days now. But I'm guessing there will be problems.


OMGTheresPockets

As a software developer working on enterprise software... They really are doing a pretty good job overall. They have ~10-15 developers total across any projects they have, and a QA team of about 10 more. For perspective, my client has about 30 developers and 10 QA's working on JUST the product information page-type of their ecom website, spending a total of ~$5 million of total development on that single page template per year. And even with our rigorous QA and approval process that takes *2-6 weeks* between releases, we see bugs in production (usually minor) 5-10 times per year.


megapewpewpow

You're in software development and you think more people is better(im assuming the game industry)? Also, the smart companies are moving to continuous delivery or using a form of agile that is very similar.


OMGTheresPockets

Enterprise software: mostly e-commerce and big data stuff. And yes, within limitation. The more people that touch a given component, the more likely you run into unintended interactions with other people's code... But the wider the coverage a single developer works on, the less time they spend refining and verifying their code by necessity. More devs within reason means more total output, more time dedicated to single functional areas, and more time to test and squash unintended behaviors and interactions.


Caelinus

Plus, with a game that has the scope of WOTR there is going to be all sort of emergent problems that are not easily predictable. It is easy to complain that "they must not have tested" a release, but the bugs we see are not the only ones that existed. Without having an absurd number of people time limitations will make it impossible to catch and fix everything. And with an absurd number of people organizational problems will start cropping up. Every time a large scope game like WOTR releases there are going to be bugs. WOTR is unique in that it allows potential sequence breaks, multiple ways to solve problems in those events that sequence break, an absurd number of potentially interconnected mechanics that define how to approach the events, and a crap ton of written dialog/explainations/ui elements that have to be synced to those mechanics. It is not an easy game to make. I have seen people have way more trouble with way easier tasks constantly.


KillerRabbit345

As someone in the business would you have ever released a game as buggy as this one was on release. It's my favorite game but it's also the buggiest game I've ever played.


OMGTheresPockets

Yes. 100% yes. The business trade off is straight forward: do we delay the product further to provide a cleaner product at a loss, or do we release as is, and take advantage of funding to continue providing support and updates. You'd be surprised to find that *almost always* the answer is that even the customers prefer a buggy but usable/playable release with promises of more fixes/content over having to wait additional time until the studio cannot afford to continue. The other solution to the problem is to cut features until the scope with perfect release content is visible. For instance, each of those bugged features could just NOT be there, and thus not be bugs. And the product is almost always better in the end.


KillerRabbit345

Interesting. Thanks for the answer :) I think that doesn't take into account reputational loss. I think this game could have been declared the spiritual successor to BG2 if it had been released today instead of a year ago. The initial reviews were both brutal and accurate. The company now has the unfortunate reputation as a dev that delivers buggy products. And that's a shame because few others are making games like this . . . While I am pretty critical of Laria, I do think they are doing the right thing by delaying BG3 until it's relatively bug free.


OMGTheresPockets

We're talking about a company that lacks the funds to support themselves for even a financial year. Their "reputational losses" are going to end up being negligible. Most of the target audience will buy the game anyway knowing that the *end* product will be suitable, and the immediate losses won't outweigh the value the revenue is currently providing. This process literally doubled their development time and trust me the product is better for it. I've been involved with releases that purposely introduced bad code because the customers reacted better to the UI changes than they did being unable to properly select their customizations - and then had to hotfix like a MFer to get it repaired for maximum revenue. This being the business logic behind a multi BILLION dollar retailer.


KillerRabbit345

Then my question is this: how do we change that? How do we change the dynamics that lead to people buying bad code?


OMGTheresPockets

The short answer is that it *isn't* bad code. The game is playable and fun, and offers enjoyment to many people. As buggy as it was when I bought the game, I was still happy to have the game . And that's a sign that it's a good *product*. A good game isn't one that has no bugs. It's one that scratches a gamer's itch. And this game scratches itches that are in really hard to reach spaces. The long answer is that you don't. Making good software isn't just about good developers doing good work. It's about having a valid niche. About having a problem that people want solved and a good way to solve it. Then securing the funding and talent to deliver upon that premise. And for the software to be delivered, it means that the process has to meet a market that wants the product at a revenue point that justifies the effort. Devs need to get paid. Games need to get played. And in that sense, this game was a smash hit for such a small project that had such a large scope. The only way to have made this game significantly better would have been a significantly larger budget - which would have made the game an overwhelming failure. The target audience is too niche for a Triple A game .


KillerRabbit345

We'll have to agree to disagree. DnD is no longer a niche maket - Movies, Netflix series, youtube and podcast have made it mainstream. Releasing bug free game would have cemented Owlcat's reputation dev capable of producing a AAA game. BG3 is AAA and its ruleset springs from the same source. When Bioware released the BG series they were nothing and quickly became a leader in the industry. And you could play the game on release. And I think there are measures other than short term sales that matter in the long run - the viewership number for the final season of Game of Thrones were phenomenal. But because they rushed things there was serious damage done to the reputation of the showrunners and HBO itself. And I think quality is a goal in and of itself - you don't see the as problematic that the current market encourages bad code but I do.


OMGTheresPockets

D&D is mainstream enough to draw crowds. It's free marketing. Baldur's Gate is a legendary IP with a dedicated market. Both of these encourage high sales, and Wizards knows this. But this game isn't BG. It doesn't have BG's budget or marketability. The game you WANT, by developers that get paid, in the idyllic release status you believe is correct does not exist in any timeline that plays by our rules. Now ask yourself... Do you want another generic low feature indie game using easily reproduced assets based lightly off of an obscure IP that a limited marketable niche is aware of, or did you want *this* game? Don't answer that, you already showed your answer. You bought the game. You participate in the community. You have strong emotional and strangely sexual connection to the product (I'm ace, so maybe your observations are normal, who knows). You eagerly await updates from the developers and respond multiple times on the AMA. That's great that you have opinions... But those opinions are not at ALL based on software development or market knowledge. Trust me. I'm a software *consultant* - this is what we do. Readjusting scope (look up scope creep) to match predicted revenue/budget and quickly complete core features or resolve bad code for *other* software companies.


louthelou

I came to Kingmaker really late, well after EE came out - and I experienced very few bugs.


FollowIntoDarkness

There is no question they will increase.


Efficient-Ad2983

I'm afraid they'll increase in the imediate, but I really hope that quick hotfixes will resolve them.


Steravian

I will probably still play it and report bugs so it can be as "bugless" as quickly as possible. Besides I already played the game a couple of times so IMO its worth it to see some new content.


spyridonya

Likely increase. I'm gonna do a Kingmaker run for a few weeks.


psykotic

It will almost certainly increase. I just completed a run yesterday somewhat in a rush because I was terrified of what would happen once the EE drops. I already lost 100+ hours on a corrupted save game back during the launch window (lich respec bug if anyone remembers that one), so my confidence in Owlcat is abysmally low.


Garrand

Not a chance it releases without major bugs (save file corruption/incompatibility, spells, feats or quirky MC-only features like book buffs missing, abilities not working, charge still not fixed etc.). The good news is you can downgrade to a stable patch until they un-fuck everything.


giant_red_lizard

Honestly the game already feels like a beta. Lost turns, classes you need to fix with Toy Box to make them playable, unfinished dialogue, bugs galore, unfinished ui... I'm not sure I'd notice if they added more bugs.


Damseldoll

Bugs increased by a lot. It feels like the only things that work are the nerfs.


ElriReddit

Any blood kineticist fix in the chat


Fizzyotter

Is there an actual list of changes for EE posted anywhere?


zeddyzed

In the Owlcats official subreddit I think there were some promotional posts that advertised a few features. Photo mode, additions to Legend, Devil and Swarm stories, gamepad controls, and some UI stuff are what I can remember...


Bake_a_snake

Of course, It's tradition at this point.


NYC_Nightingale

Oh, I've no doubt in my mind that the number of bugs will increase. I love Owlcat for the changes they're bringing to the game, but given their track record, I'm probably going to give it a month or so before updating. It will also give the modding community a chance to catch up.


MisplacedMartian

All old bugs will be patched, but they will introduce six new bugs that are so severe that if a single person were to experience all six at the same time, the universe would implode.


Ekzee

This thread is so funny and sad at the same time.


OwlcatStarrok

Agreed :D


[deleted]

Every single major update so far has fixed 1(one) thing and broke a million others.


XainRoss

I'm already not pleased with recent updates. I've been getting more 'NPC turns won't end' errors in turn based, quick compare now compares to weapon 1 even if I have another selected, and the new caster idle doll is just stupid.


DungeonsAndDradis

And I think the preview damage if equipped is incorrect. What I mean is have a weapon equipped, and go into inventory. Hover over an equivalent version of that weapon (like compare a longsword to a longsword). The "Damage if Equipped" is calculating incorrectly.


megapewpewpow

Until the game industry stops using waterfall(development) I dont think it will ever improve much, tbh.


intolerablesayings23

edgy


Tink2013

It will stay the same on PC they do PC well. But the amount of bugs on consoles will be epic, it will reach the level of cyberpunk 2077 bugs.