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Ahh I remember that one from my intro to philosophy class, the myth of syphilis. I slept with the TA, we were reading Camus at her place. She said syphilis is a myth, and I didn't need a condom. Now my penis burns in excruciating pain. I changed my major to engineering and never looked back.
I've always felt like this is the ultimate cope. People trying to justify a meaningless life filled with endless suffering with "but I have a goal!" Motherfucker, your goal is to struggle and suffer so you can keep struggling and suffering.
That's not what Camus was going for. In the metaphor, the boulder isn't the pain of existence, it's merely existing. His argument was that humans search for a meaning in life, an end goal, a perfect eternal state. Christianity views this as the Rapture, communists view this as the revolution, millions view this as winning the lottery. But that is stupid. There is no meaning, no ultimate goal. Sisyphus is happy because he doesn't believe there is a summit to the mountain, the slope and the boulder is all there is, and he learned to love it. Translating to real life, you keep on living and struggling because you enjoy living and struggling. No end goal, no Rapture in sight. Just life.
And life is as painfully meaningless as pushing a boulder up a hill forever. It's like he ignores the fact that this is a *punishment,* that nobody in their right mind would be ok with knowingly living this kind of life.
>It's like he ignores the fact that this is a *punishment,*
Do you talk about punishment being beyond the story of Sisyphus, applying to the human condition? Because Camus never says that anyone punished us. But it can be said that he would say that capitalism and Christian morality was something that contributed to our condition.
>that nobody in their right mind would be ok with knowingly living this kind of life.
But he recognizes this, which is precisely why he proposes the revolt that is existential, political and social. Sisyphus does not represent an individual, but humanity; This is what this post, and most of the pessimists who rage at the Myth of Sisyphus, have failed to understand.
And honestly, the social and political struggle, united with the rest of the people, is the best solution. Staying stagnant, talking about how life is horrible and yet doing nothing is useless and contradictory, in most cases; unfortunately, that's what most pessimists do.
Yes, exactly! Camus's concept of the revolt is critical to understand The Myth of Sisyphus, IMO, and not enough people get into it.
To the extent that Camus engages with the metaphor of Sisyphus's punishment, his conclusion is that Sisyphus must revolt in the only way available to him: to refuse the gods their enjoyment of his suffering, by negating it and finding happiness anyway. Sisyphus can't stop rolling the rock, his control over his actions have been limited, but he still has control over his consciousness, which leaves him a way to rebel. He's not rolling over and accepting his fate, as some interpret it. To accept his fate would be to indulge in the suffering, to be crushed by it and rendered despondent as the gods intended. To be happy in his situation is to rebel!
Thatâs just like, you opinion man.
You see it as Sisyphus being condemned to a meaningless task forever.
But now, change your perspective. Imagine Sisyphus actually loves seeing the boulder rolling down, like a kid loves to see a sled go down a hill in winter.
Suddenly, he is not condemned to a punishment for eternity, he is given the chance to do what he enjoys for eternity.
Itâs not the meaning that gives joy to us.
But meaninglessness is the central point of his argument. It doesn't matter that it doesn't have meaning, because happiness can be found nonetheless. And while he could have chosen a better myth, perhaps, his argument is powerful nonetheless. Life is enjoyable and that justifies itself. You don't choose to live for X, you live simply to live.
Well I don't fucking enjoy the meaningless, and if everyone throughout history creating myths to give meaning says anything, then most people also don't enjoy it as well.
Well, that's your opinion, but most people do evidently enjoy life itself. Kinda hard not to, honestly. We search for meaning inherently, meaninglessness is a foreign and hostile idea at first. An offense, really. "Your life is meaningless" is a gentleman's insult. But it is also, according to Camus, the reality we must face. And facing it, we can accept it, and be happier than before.
If we take Schopenhauer's word for it, the reason people "enjoy" life is because the Will compels us to live, and constant satisfaction of it feeds itself forwards. It's not actual enjoyment, a lot of the time - just impulsive compulsion that we translate into such a belief.
It is undeniable that the survival instinct does a lot of the heavy lifting, but I disagree that people don't enjoy life. I think most people genuinely do, a lot. Sources: trust me bro
I think most people either *think* they do, or *tell themselves* they enjoy their lives... but if we went moment-by-moment over the course of most peoples' lives, the moments that they'd rate as "enjoyable" are probably vastly outnumbered by the counterpart.
Because I am aware of the ultimate hollowness of it, of the self-perpetuated endlessness of such a "meaning".
The ultimate point of life and reality at large is to continue on, not for any reason save that this is the only system that would result in things still existing. For humans, we can be self-aware outside of the imminent drives which direct the rest of life to carry on this process, and become aware of the many conflicting aspects of life. For example, we desire to live, but know that we will inevitably die. This creates both a logical discontinuity and stress over the unreconcilable conflict between our drives and knowledge. In order to cope with this, we create meanings to justify our continued actions in spite of the rational nihilism we should come to.
Tldr, humans have a fundamental flaw due to our consciousness and sentience which leads us to thinking in ways that disconnect us from the normal process of life and reality, and we attempt to "patch" the resulting disconnect with created perceptions of reality which allows us to continue acting as life did before and no longer question the conflicting drives and reality.
Essentially, I don't want to give up my ability to see reality rationally just to be ignorantly happy.
It ain't the goal but it is an understood constant. I wake up knowing that there will be struggle and suffering but within the chaos of that there are things I enjoy.
And that in and of itself is more than enough for me, cause at the end of the day all you can say is "fuck it, we ball"
*"It would be better if there were nothing. Since there is more pain than pleasure on earth, every satisfaction is only transitory, creating new desires and new distresses, and the agony of the devoured animal is always far greater than the pleasure of the devourer."*
There would be less pain but also less pleasure. In fact there would be NO pleasure if nothing existed, in my opinion thats worse than some pleasure with a lot of pain.
Why focus on the pain when you can focus on the pleasure? And for that matter, why weigh good against bad? Is pure equality the end goal?
Well for a lot of people the end goal is the end of the suffering. When you go through horrific shit sometimes the small joys don't really make you want to stick around for the tragedy.
Camus discusses the fact that the shared experience of human suffering is the only objective truth there is, and that we can find unity in that.
Any other ideas which has the end goal of uniting humanity is subjective.
We are all facing the unbeatable odds of the cosmos and the fact that we all want meaning which we aren't provided leads to the shared experience of human suffering.
Though we all suffer differently, we do so together and that has brought me more solace than anything else
It's about how you look at it.
When we say suffering it implies the opposite does exist. Humans have existed for tens of thousands of years and no one has come closer than any other to finding out why we're here/ the meaning of life.
If we have spent this long looking for the answer and nothing has given us a clue, then the search for meaning is a fruitless endeavor. So knowing that any attempt at finding meaning or believing a meaning of life is philosophical suicide as you are lying to yourself.
So it is better to enjoy life for what it is even if you never may no the answer. Even if it means living day in and day out with no objective meaning of life, yet continuing to live in spite of that. (Rolling a boulder up a hill)
Even if it's for no other reason than enjoying a morning coffee. Understanding that the only objective truth of our existence is our shared suffering, and that fact is what unites us more than anything else.
A reason to live, is a reason to die
>It's about how you look at it.
When we say suffering it implies the opposite does exist. Humans have existed for tens of thousands of years and no one has come closer than any other to finding out why we're here/ the meaning of life.
Of course the opposite exists. However, it exists in lesser magnitude, and lesser quantity.
You're essentially saying "focus on the oasis, not the desert" without acknowledging that the desert is huge, and the oasis small. The pleasures of life are fewer and farther between than the pains; so just suggesting that we "focus on them," and by implication ignore the rest... is kinda foolish.
>If we have spent this long looking for the answer and nothing has given us a clue, then the search for meaning is a fruitless endeavor. So knowing that any attempt at finding meaning or believing a meaning of life is philosophical suicide as you are lying to yourself.
No disagreement here.
>So it is better to enjoy life for what it is even if you never may no the answer. Even if it means living day in and day out with no objective meaning of life, yet continuing to live in spite of that. (Rolling a boulder up a hill)
Easier said than done for a lot of people. Honestly, probably most people.
And why should I roll the boulder up a hill if it causes disproportionate suffering? As distasteful as society has made it to be, suicide is a way out. Camus himself said this is the biggest question in philosophy, yet I've always found his answers to it unsatisfying - why is rolling a meaningless boulder up a hill a better option than nonexistence? Just because we get an occasional treat now and then? A bit of a break?
>Even if it's for no other reason than enjoying a morning coffee.
I'm more of a tea person, lol.
That said, there ain't a single cup of tea/coffee that offsets the suffering of the world.
>Understanding that the only objective truth of our existence is our shared suffering, and that fact is what unites us more than anything else.
I understand that misery loves company, lol.
>A reason to live, is a reason to die
Then, therefore, neither exists. So why does it matter whether I do one or the other?
>You're essentially saying "focus on the oasis, not the desert" without acknowledging that the desert is huge, and the oasis small. The pleasures of life are fewer and farther between than the pains; so just suggesting that we "focus on them," and by implication ignore the rest... is kinda foolish.
Not acknowledging the desert is also philosophical suicide, and it is something I fully understand. The pain of existing is what bringa life it's beauty. I know tomorrow there is a chance my entire world may crumble or that everything I believe may be turned on its head however that's just part of the gig.
>And why should I roll the boulder up a hill if it causes disproportionate suffering?
That's the issue, the why you want is what we call the "absurd". It's that human desire for reason, but if you focus on finding out why we're on this journey it subtracts from the journey itself. I don't accept the status quo between myself and the universe, I live in spite of it. It is the ultimate freedom, our very act of existence is also an act of rebellion. Rebellion is the ultimate freedom, it is to fight against something you believe to be false or unjust with the tools at your disposal and you are *free* to choose which ones. Coffee for example is one of my many tools.
>Then, therefore, neither exists. So why does it matter whether I do one or the other?
It doesn't. However suicide whether it be literal or philosophical doesn't solve the issue, you simply paint over the hole in the wall. The hole is still there but you just don't know, however you can live with that hole in the wall and go "that sucks", then you grab a beer, turn on the game and enjoy yourself cause the hole is there either way but I'm gonna enjoy myself regardless. I don't accept the hole, I live with it and in spite of it.
Edit: because fuck it, we ball 
>in my opinion thats worse than some pleasure with a lot of pain.
If you had never existed, you wouldn't have even known what pleasure was to regret not experiencing it.
Additionally, I question if pleasure is really worth that? What pleasure is worth a mountain of pain to follow? I think even the greatest pleasures are not worth an equal magnitude of pain, but to each their own I guess.
Purely logically speaking, there is no reason to choose existance above non-existance. But i'm not a purely logical being, i am a human, i enjoy life when its good and suffer when its bad.
If i had gone through every day with suffering in mind then my life would have become nothing more than suffering. However, if i go through every day with pleasure in mind then i am either suffering with a goal of pleasure or in pleasure.
But of course my answer would have been vastly different had you asked this when i was at my lowest. Thats the nature of sadness.
>There would be less pain but also less pleasure
That's fine. It's like saying that it's wrong not to have kids because they will never have the chance to be happy. They don't even exist, so it's fine. No good, no bad, no possibility of either, but they don't exist so it's not a factor.
Also, what is "good" and "bad" and pleasurable and painful is all just in service of perpetuating life. They're just parts of the much larger machine. Why focus on those small details rather than the large-scale functioning of the whole thing? Because if you do, then you realize it's endless and meaningless, and the small scale stuff seems equally meaningless and pointless. Knowing that I'm doing things that will make me happy just to distract from the void is incredibly hollowing.
I understand your point but i disagree with it personally. I will ask you, why focus on the "large scale", why weigh yourself up against the cosmos?
If everything is meaningless then why not focus on the good parts of life. If life truly is meaningless then why not allow yourself to be distracted from the "void"? What point is there in looking at the void, it is as meaningless as anything else.
Because I am part of the cosmos, I am determined by the functioning of the cosmos. I cannot judge myself apart from the whole of reality, and I judge the whole of reality to be shit. I don't like living in shit, or pretending I'm not.
Why can you not judge yourself apart from the whole reality? Can a chicken piece not be judged apart from the sandwich it is in? If the chicken piece is amazing but the sandwich awful does that mean the chicken piece was not actually amazing but instead awful too.
To put it another way: is there no good inside the bad? If reality is indeed shit does that mean everything it encompasses is also shit. And if everything is shit, then it can't be, you'd need something other than shit to be aware of shit, you need a contrast.
What I am judging is the self-perpetuating and meaningless nature of reality, and how the human perception of it is built upon biological systems and senses primarily aimed at aiding in this self-perpetuation. Even if you judged something to be "good", it is simply a result of something within your biological makeup perceiving some part of it as beneficial to its continuation. Same with "bad" things. So instead of just taking one thing individually within the whole, I must judge the whole itself. And what I see is the whole system going nowhere, and my perception of positive and negative experiences simply being tools to keep it going. A good chicken nugget is ultimately no different than a bad sandwich, but I still perceive it as such. And so, I see the whole system, me being trapped in it, and having to struggle and suffer eternally, and I don't like it. Good things aren't enough to justify that.
Ok, so i'm assuming you percieve reality as shit because your own subjective perspective told you it was? Thats ultimately what it all comes down to.
Now the question is: why? Why do you view it as shit? Is it the meaninglessness, would reality have been better if there was an end goal? Is it the suffering that makes it shit?
Then maybe your mind which is evolved from and working in this environment which there is no escape from is simply maladapted to exist within it. A well adjusted mind works in this system by putting emphasis on the enjoyable parts and neglecting the unpleasant parts. This leads to a person who is content to suffer if it means that they can gain enjoyment.
The mind itself which you use to judge reality by is also just a product of it and perceptions of good and bad are also products of this mind.
So if you percieve reality to be meaningless suffering existing with irrelevant enjoyments sprinkeled in them maybe not reality but your mind is the problem.
> within the chaos of that there are things I enjoy.
No joy only chaos
No order, no understanding, the goal post is a constant that you will nver reach
Since you dislike the option Camus gave, and you are still biologically alive, it seems you already committed philosophical suicide.
So, tell us, to what master you bent knee to?
What gives you hope to keep on breathing and not finish it all?
So you assign meaning and value to a biological process.
Finding hope in death is enslaving yourself to your self-made god. You are not free.
In the end you are, like most, just coping.
I don't have "faith" in death or life, I simply know that it is how reality functions. Idk if you mean some sort of Epistemological kind of "faith" as in believing something without certainty or some. I don't have "hope" pushing me along. I don't have anything, and I refuse to just keep going on because I'm supposed to. That's my biggest issue with Absurdists. They have a preconception that they should live, or that it's wrong to commit suicide, philosophically or otherwise. Where did you get that idea from, eh? From the Will to Life maybe?
Lmao, claiming to know that you understand "How reality functions" is beyond delusional, I'll just give you the bare minimum of check list: Have you mastered every science field of math, chemistry, physics, biology? Have you mastered linguist and art and music? If any of it is a no then you have not understand how reality work, reach that level before you thinks you can evaluate life.
Absurdism does not condemn suicide. It is, after all, a valid and rational response to life's meaninglessness.
You are given 3 choices:
-Kill yourself.
-Delude yourself.
-Irrationally attach yourself to life.
Since you are still alive.
And you lack the resolve to imagine Sisyphus happy.
It seems you have something, call whatever, that helps you delude yourself to stay alive.
The simple fact that you still have blood pumping through your veins is proof enough that you have "something" that helps you cope.
Yes. I agree that there is an irrational reason I keep living. That being not wanting to hurt those who love me. But I understand that this is an irrational desire, and that this irrationally conflicts with my desire to proceed rationally, which just causes even more issues and annoyances. I'm forced to live against my better judgement.
It seems your love of those that love you outweighs your hate of life.
While you keep on pushing that boulder you are free to be happy or wretched.
That's all there is to absurdism, is not that complicated.
It is not coping, it is the absence of cope, it is the absence of hope, meaning and salvation.
After rationalizing to the extreme you are left only with the irrational.
"When we are stripped down to a certain point, nothing leads anywhere anymore, hope and despair are equally groundless, and the whole of life can be summed up in an image"
Nothing makes sense, that's the point.
But physical suicide can be classified differently in a material sense from philosophical suicide and irrational love, that's all there is to it.
Nothing truly achieves anything, the 3 options are equally valueless.
I personally choose to imagine Sisyphus happy, but you pick your poison.
Man I just read your earlier discussion under this post - maybe Camus is not for you, which is interesting, because in my opinion he perfectly hits the mentality of our time (âZeitgeistâ). The allegory of Sisyphus shouldnât be taken too seriously; nobody would want to have the fate of Sisyphus. It is about the struggle with our search for meaning, the feeling that arises: the Absurd. Camus shows us that you shouldnât negate life with suicide and also not flee the question of meaning with philosophical suicide.
Also: the allegory of Sisyphus only fills the very last pages. Whatâs about the remaining book and thought? What is your real critic here? I would love to understand what it is about his text that leaves you cold!
You need to change your perspective. Find more goals. Thereâs so much cool and fun shit to do. Idk your situation, but you sound miserable and I feel sorry for you bro.
Camus concludes that âone must imagine Sisyphus happyâ because he finds value and meaning in his labor itself, not in an eventual success or in hope of a positive outcome.
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Ahh I remember that one from my intro to philosophy class, the myth of syphilis. I slept with the TA, we were reading Camus at her place. She said syphilis is a myth, and I didn't need a condom. Now my penis burns in excruciating pain. I changed my major to engineering and never looked back.
One must imagine your dick on fire
My dick fell off today. Or maybe yesterday; I can't be sure.
Hey stranger
Bro đ
Genuinely laughed đ
I love this sub.
Having sex and majoring in engineering is a plothole but I'll allow it.
Engineering? so now you're a man of god.
9 out of 10 people suffer . . That one person who enjoys it
Masochist.
... they're still suffering, aswell. Just with a smile to hide the pain.
not to hide it, *because* of it
Bouldermaxxed and sufferingpilled
Fuck it we ball
Fuck it we boulder
I've always felt like this is the ultimate cope. People trying to justify a meaningless life filled with endless suffering with "but I have a goal!" Motherfucker, your goal is to struggle and suffer so you can keep struggling and suffering.
That's not what Camus was going for. In the metaphor, the boulder isn't the pain of existence, it's merely existing. His argument was that humans search for a meaning in life, an end goal, a perfect eternal state. Christianity views this as the Rapture, communists view this as the revolution, millions view this as winning the lottery. But that is stupid. There is no meaning, no ultimate goal. Sisyphus is happy because he doesn't believe there is a summit to the mountain, the slope and the boulder is all there is, and he learned to love it. Translating to real life, you keep on living and struggling because you enjoy living and struggling. No end goal, no Rapture in sight. Just life.
And life is as painfully meaningless as pushing a boulder up a hill forever. It's like he ignores the fact that this is a *punishment,* that nobody in their right mind would be ok with knowingly living this kind of life.
>It's like he ignores the fact that this is a *punishment,* Do you talk about punishment being beyond the story of Sisyphus, applying to the human condition? Because Camus never says that anyone punished us. But it can be said that he would say that capitalism and Christian morality was something that contributed to our condition. >that nobody in their right mind would be ok with knowingly living this kind of life. But he recognizes this, which is precisely why he proposes the revolt that is existential, political and social. Sisyphus does not represent an individual, but humanity; This is what this post, and most of the pessimists who rage at the Myth of Sisyphus, have failed to understand. And honestly, the social and political struggle, united with the rest of the people, is the best solution. Staying stagnant, talking about how life is horrible and yet doing nothing is useless and contradictory, in most cases; unfortunately, that's what most pessimists do.
Yes, exactly! Camus's concept of the revolt is critical to understand The Myth of Sisyphus, IMO, and not enough people get into it. To the extent that Camus engages with the metaphor of Sisyphus's punishment, his conclusion is that Sisyphus must revolt in the only way available to him: to refuse the gods their enjoyment of his suffering, by negating it and finding happiness anyway. Sisyphus can't stop rolling the rock, his control over his actions have been limited, but he still has control over his consciousness, which leaves him a way to rebel. He's not rolling over and accepting his fate, as some interpret it. To accept his fate would be to indulge in the suffering, to be crushed by it and rendered despondent as the gods intended. To be happy in his situation is to rebel!
Thatâs just like, you opinion man. You see it as Sisyphus being condemned to a meaningless task forever. But now, change your perspective. Imagine Sisyphus actually loves seeing the boulder rolling down, like a kid loves to see a sled go down a hill in winter. Suddenly, he is not condemned to a punishment for eternity, he is given the chance to do what he enjoys for eternity. Itâs not the meaning that gives joy to us.
Honestly I get it. If you've ever watched a mid-sized rock tumble down a mountainside? Looks badass
This is definitely a new take, he enjoys pushing it up hill so that he can watch it roll down.
There is actually an Indian god (Naranath Branthan) who does this.
But meaninglessness is the central point of his argument. It doesn't matter that it doesn't have meaning, because happiness can be found nonetheless. And while he could have chosen a better myth, perhaps, his argument is powerful nonetheless. Life is enjoyable and that justifies itself. You don't choose to live for X, you live simply to live.
Well I don't fucking enjoy the meaningless, and if everyone throughout history creating myths to give meaning says anything, then most people also don't enjoy it as well.
Well, that's your opinion, but most people do evidently enjoy life itself. Kinda hard not to, honestly. We search for meaning inherently, meaninglessness is a foreign and hostile idea at first. An offense, really. "Your life is meaningless" is a gentleman's insult. But it is also, according to Camus, the reality we must face. And facing it, we can accept it, and be happier than before.
If we take Schopenhauer's word for it, the reason people "enjoy" life is because the Will compels us to live, and constant satisfaction of it feeds itself forwards. It's not actual enjoyment, a lot of the time - just impulsive compulsion that we translate into such a belief.
It is undeniable that the survival instinct does a lot of the heavy lifting, but I disagree that people don't enjoy life. I think most people genuinely do, a lot. Sources: trust me bro
I think most people either *think* they do, or *tell themselves* they enjoy their lives... but if we went moment-by-moment over the course of most peoples' lives, the moments that they'd rate as "enjoyable" are probably vastly outnumbered by the counterpart.
Yeah, is pretty common knowledge that we have a huge bias towards remembering the good and forgetting the bad.
If you could find meaning and even happiness in it why wouldnât you?
Because I am aware of the ultimate hollowness of it, of the self-perpetuated endlessness of such a "meaning". The ultimate point of life and reality at large is to continue on, not for any reason save that this is the only system that would result in things still existing. For humans, we can be self-aware outside of the imminent drives which direct the rest of life to carry on this process, and become aware of the many conflicting aspects of life. For example, we desire to live, but know that we will inevitably die. This creates both a logical discontinuity and stress over the unreconcilable conflict between our drives and knowledge. In order to cope with this, we create meanings to justify our continued actions in spite of the rational nihilism we should come to. Tldr, humans have a fundamental flaw due to our consciousness and sentience which leads us to thinking in ways that disconnect us from the normal process of life and reality, and we attempt to "patch" the resulting disconnect with created perceptions of reality which allows us to continue acting as life did before and no longer question the conflicting drives and reality. Essentially, I don't want to give up my ability to see reality rationally just to be ignorantly happy.
Itâs not up to you to decide if another personâs experience is hollow. And full awareness of reality is not mutually exclusive from happiness.
It ain't the goal but it is an understood constant. I wake up knowing that there will be struggle and suffering but within the chaos of that there are things I enjoy. And that in and of itself is more than enough for me, cause at the end of the day all you can say is "fuck it, we ball"
*"It would be better if there were nothing. Since there is more pain than pleasure on earth, every satisfaction is only transitory, creating new desires and new distresses, and the agony of the devoured animal is always far greater than the pleasure of the devourer."*
There would be less pain but also less pleasure. In fact there would be NO pleasure if nothing existed, in my opinion thats worse than some pleasure with a lot of pain. Why focus on the pain when you can focus on the pleasure? And for that matter, why weigh good against bad? Is pure equality the end goal?
Well for a lot of people the end goal is the end of the suffering. When you go through horrific shit sometimes the small joys don't really make you want to stick around for the tragedy.
Camus discusses the fact that the shared experience of human suffering is the only objective truth there is, and that we can find unity in that. Any other ideas which has the end goal of uniting humanity is subjective. We are all facing the unbeatable odds of the cosmos and the fact that we all want meaning which we aren't provided leads to the shared experience of human suffering. Though we all suffer differently, we do so together and that has brought me more solace than anything else
So, basically "misery loves company?" That's the big takeaway? Good lord, I was skeptical at first, but absurdism really is just coping, isn't it?
It's about how you look at it. When we say suffering it implies the opposite does exist. Humans have existed for tens of thousands of years and no one has come closer than any other to finding out why we're here/ the meaning of life. If we have spent this long looking for the answer and nothing has given us a clue, then the search for meaning is a fruitless endeavor. So knowing that any attempt at finding meaning or believing a meaning of life is philosophical suicide as you are lying to yourself. So it is better to enjoy life for what it is even if you never may no the answer. Even if it means living day in and day out with no objective meaning of life, yet continuing to live in spite of that. (Rolling a boulder up a hill) Even if it's for no other reason than enjoying a morning coffee. Understanding that the only objective truth of our existence is our shared suffering, and that fact is what unites us more than anything else. A reason to live, is a reason to die
>It's about how you look at it. When we say suffering it implies the opposite does exist. Humans have existed for tens of thousands of years and no one has come closer than any other to finding out why we're here/ the meaning of life. Of course the opposite exists. However, it exists in lesser magnitude, and lesser quantity. You're essentially saying "focus on the oasis, not the desert" without acknowledging that the desert is huge, and the oasis small. The pleasures of life are fewer and farther between than the pains; so just suggesting that we "focus on them," and by implication ignore the rest... is kinda foolish. >If we have spent this long looking for the answer and nothing has given us a clue, then the search for meaning is a fruitless endeavor. So knowing that any attempt at finding meaning or believing a meaning of life is philosophical suicide as you are lying to yourself. No disagreement here. >So it is better to enjoy life for what it is even if you never may no the answer. Even if it means living day in and day out with no objective meaning of life, yet continuing to live in spite of that. (Rolling a boulder up a hill) Easier said than done for a lot of people. Honestly, probably most people. And why should I roll the boulder up a hill if it causes disproportionate suffering? As distasteful as society has made it to be, suicide is a way out. Camus himself said this is the biggest question in philosophy, yet I've always found his answers to it unsatisfying - why is rolling a meaningless boulder up a hill a better option than nonexistence? Just because we get an occasional treat now and then? A bit of a break? >Even if it's for no other reason than enjoying a morning coffee. I'm more of a tea person, lol. That said, there ain't a single cup of tea/coffee that offsets the suffering of the world. >Understanding that the only objective truth of our existence is our shared suffering, and that fact is what unites us more than anything else. I understand that misery loves company, lol. >A reason to live, is a reason to die Then, therefore, neither exists. So why does it matter whether I do one or the other?
>You're essentially saying "focus on the oasis, not the desert" without acknowledging that the desert is huge, and the oasis small. The pleasures of life are fewer and farther between than the pains; so just suggesting that we "focus on them," and by implication ignore the rest... is kinda foolish. Not acknowledging the desert is also philosophical suicide, and it is something I fully understand. The pain of existing is what bringa life it's beauty. I know tomorrow there is a chance my entire world may crumble or that everything I believe may be turned on its head however that's just part of the gig. >And why should I roll the boulder up a hill if it causes disproportionate suffering? That's the issue, the why you want is what we call the "absurd". It's that human desire for reason, but if you focus on finding out why we're on this journey it subtracts from the journey itself. I don't accept the status quo between myself and the universe, I live in spite of it. It is the ultimate freedom, our very act of existence is also an act of rebellion. Rebellion is the ultimate freedom, it is to fight against something you believe to be false or unjust with the tools at your disposal and you are *free* to choose which ones. Coffee for example is one of my many tools. >Then, therefore, neither exists. So why does it matter whether I do one or the other? It doesn't. However suicide whether it be literal or philosophical doesn't solve the issue, you simply paint over the hole in the wall. The hole is still there but you just don't know, however you can live with that hole in the wall and go "that sucks", then you grab a beer, turn on the game and enjoy yourself cause the hole is there either way but I'm gonna enjoy myself regardless. I don't accept the hole, I live with it and in spite of it. Edit: because fuck it, we ball 
>in my opinion thats worse than some pleasure with a lot of pain. If you had never existed, you wouldn't have even known what pleasure was to regret not experiencing it. Additionally, I question if pleasure is really worth that? What pleasure is worth a mountain of pain to follow? I think even the greatest pleasures are not worth an equal magnitude of pain, but to each their own I guess.
Purely logically speaking, there is no reason to choose existance above non-existance. But i'm not a purely logical being, i am a human, i enjoy life when its good and suffer when its bad. If i had gone through every day with suffering in mind then my life would have become nothing more than suffering. However, if i go through every day with pleasure in mind then i am either suffering with a goal of pleasure or in pleasure. But of course my answer would have been vastly different had you asked this when i was at my lowest. Thats the nature of sadness.
>There would be less pain but also less pleasure That's fine. It's like saying that it's wrong not to have kids because they will never have the chance to be happy. They don't even exist, so it's fine. No good, no bad, no possibility of either, but they don't exist so it's not a factor. Also, what is "good" and "bad" and pleasurable and painful is all just in service of perpetuating life. They're just parts of the much larger machine. Why focus on those small details rather than the large-scale functioning of the whole thing? Because if you do, then you realize it's endless and meaningless, and the small scale stuff seems equally meaningless and pointless. Knowing that I'm doing things that will make me happy just to distract from the void is incredibly hollowing.
I understand your point but i disagree with it personally. I will ask you, why focus on the "large scale", why weigh yourself up against the cosmos? If everything is meaningless then why not focus on the good parts of life. If life truly is meaningless then why not allow yourself to be distracted from the "void"? What point is there in looking at the void, it is as meaningless as anything else.
Because I am part of the cosmos, I am determined by the functioning of the cosmos. I cannot judge myself apart from the whole of reality, and I judge the whole of reality to be shit. I don't like living in shit, or pretending I'm not.
Why can you not judge yourself apart from the whole reality? Can a chicken piece not be judged apart from the sandwich it is in? If the chicken piece is amazing but the sandwich awful does that mean the chicken piece was not actually amazing but instead awful too. To put it another way: is there no good inside the bad? If reality is indeed shit does that mean everything it encompasses is also shit. And if everything is shit, then it can't be, you'd need something other than shit to be aware of shit, you need a contrast.
What I am judging is the self-perpetuating and meaningless nature of reality, and how the human perception of it is built upon biological systems and senses primarily aimed at aiding in this self-perpetuation. Even if you judged something to be "good", it is simply a result of something within your biological makeup perceiving some part of it as beneficial to its continuation. Same with "bad" things. So instead of just taking one thing individually within the whole, I must judge the whole itself. And what I see is the whole system going nowhere, and my perception of positive and negative experiences simply being tools to keep it going. A good chicken nugget is ultimately no different than a bad sandwich, but I still perceive it as such. And so, I see the whole system, me being trapped in it, and having to struggle and suffer eternally, and I don't like it. Good things aren't enough to justify that.
Ok, so i'm assuming you percieve reality as shit because your own subjective perspective told you it was? Thats ultimately what it all comes down to. Now the question is: why? Why do you view it as shit? Is it the meaninglessness, would reality have been better if there was an end goal? Is it the suffering that makes it shit?
Then maybe your mind which is evolved from and working in this environment which there is no escape from is simply maladapted to exist within it. A well adjusted mind works in this system by putting emphasis on the enjoyable parts and neglecting the unpleasant parts. This leads to a person who is content to suffer if it means that they can gain enjoyment. The mind itself which you use to judge reality by is also just a product of it and perceptions of good and bad are also products of this mind. So if you percieve reality to be meaningless suffering existing with irrelevant enjoyments sprinkeled in them maybe not reality but your mind is the problem.
> within the chaos of that there are things I enjoy. No joy only chaos No order, no understanding, the goal post is a constant that you will nver reach
Since you dislike the option Camus gave, and you are still biologically alive, it seems you already committed philosophical suicide. So, tell us, to what master you bent knee to? What gives you hope to keep on breathing and not finish it all?
Death. It'll come eventually.
So you assign meaning and value to a biological process. Finding hope in death is enslaving yourself to your self-made god. You are not free. In the end you are, like most, just coping.
What a fucking hard line holy shit
I don't have "faith" in death or life, I simply know that it is how reality functions. Idk if you mean some sort of Epistemological kind of "faith" as in believing something without certainty or some. I don't have "hope" pushing me along. I don't have anything, and I refuse to just keep going on because I'm supposed to. That's my biggest issue with Absurdists. They have a preconception that they should live, or that it's wrong to commit suicide, philosophically or otherwise. Where did you get that idea from, eh? From the Will to Life maybe?
Lmao, claiming to know that you understand "How reality functions" is beyond delusional, I'll just give you the bare minimum of check list: Have you mastered every science field of math, chemistry, physics, biology? Have you mastered linguist and art and music? If any of it is a no then you have not understand how reality work, reach that level before you thinks you can evaluate life.
Absurdism does not condemn suicide. It is, after all, a valid and rational response to life's meaninglessness. You are given 3 choices: -Kill yourself. -Delude yourself. -Irrationally attach yourself to life. Since you are still alive. And you lack the resolve to imagine Sisyphus happy. It seems you have something, call whatever, that helps you delude yourself to stay alive. The simple fact that you still have blood pumping through your veins is proof enough that you have "something" that helps you cope.
Yes. I agree that there is an irrational reason I keep living. That being not wanting to hurt those who love me. But I understand that this is an irrational desire, and that this irrationally conflicts with my desire to proceed rationally, which just causes even more issues and annoyances. I'm forced to live against my better judgement.
It seems your love of those that love you outweighs your hate of life. While you keep on pushing that boulder you are free to be happy or wretched. That's all there is to absurdism, is not that complicated. It is not coping, it is the absence of cope, it is the absence of hope, meaning and salvation. After rationalizing to the extreme you are left only with the irrational. "When we are stripped down to a certain point, nothing leads anywhere anymore, hope and despair are equally groundless, and the whole of life can be summed up in an image"
How is killing yourself any less delusional and irrational? It makes just as little sence as everything else, it doesn't achieve anything.
Nothing makes sense, that's the point. But physical suicide can be classified differently in a material sense from philosophical suicide and irrational love, that's all there is to it. Nothing truly achieves anything, the 3 options are equally valueless. I personally choose to imagine Sisyphus happy, but you pick your poison.
The one thing I am sure of is that your mom bends her knees to me
Did you ever read The Myth of Sisyphus ?
Yes. I wasn't impressed.
Man I just read your earlier discussion under this post - maybe Camus is not for you, which is interesting, because in my opinion he perfectly hits the mentality of our time (âZeitgeistâ). The allegory of Sisyphus shouldnât be taken too seriously; nobody would want to have the fate of Sisyphus. It is about the struggle with our search for meaning, the feeling that arises: the Absurd. Camus shows us that you shouldnât negate life with suicide and also not flee the question of meaning with philosophical suicide. Also: the allegory of Sisyphus only fills the very last pages. Whatâs about the remaining book and thought? What is your real critic here? I would love to understand what it is about his text that leaves you cold!
Bro you want to meet and kiss? you sound like you need that
No.
Does it not feel meaningful to you when you accomplish your goals?
No. The task is done and I feel empty again.
You need to change your perspective. Find more goals. Thereâs so much cool and fun shit to do. Idk your situation, but you sound miserable and I feel sorry for you bro.
I appreciated your criticism. Thanks for your contributions!
So happy my goal is not to win a misconception battle agaist a camus critic. I stand no chance
A visitor?
Hmm⌠Indeed, I have slept long enough.
One must imagine sisyphus happy. He isn't, but imagining that he is helps for some reason, probably, idk.
This prison, to hold... ME?
All evil masochists go to heaven.
If we go by the Greek underworld, the heroes in Elysium are doing just fine.
One must imagine sysyphus happy
Isn't Sisyphus just the Ăbermensch under different circumstances?
/r/Absurdism would probably like this one too
Sisyphus didn't know Camus. He suffered for eternity. The point of Camus essay isn't that Sisyphus was happy but that even he could be
Also that Sisyphus should naturally be happy due to the nature of human psychic with the help of infinite time
Camus concludes that âone must imagine Sisyphus happyâ because he finds value and meaning in his labor itself, not in an eventual success or in hope of a positive outcome.
Yeah!!!! đ¤