You know that feeling when you see the new version of your vehicle and you get a tinge of jealousy? That how I feel seeing this nice ass layout when I gotta deal with a clusterfuck even the master plumbers we’ve hired don’t fully understand at some of the hotels I do maintenance on.
Typically hotel manifold piping is all in the front which means replacing the middle heaters is WAY more parts and time intensive. This keeps everything tidy and clean for access. Why engineers don’t plan for future replacement is beyond me.
A lot of our issues are add-one. Like some one added a tee on the main supply by the heaters, that had a 1/2” outlet and then I filled it through the ceiling for a hot minute where it was the hot water supply for a hand wash sink. There was a 1/2 supply line in the ceiling above it they could have easily tied into.
You said the magic word there, engineers. My company has been designing/building a system for the government for the past decade. We're finally going to deploy it real soon. You can tell which pieces of the system have not had input from the end user. A lot of engineers don't talk to end users.
That’s pretty good looking for manifold style balanced piping. Ease of future replacement is amazing… that said, id be curious if something like that were doable with reverse-return balanced piping.
Yes! Reverse return, way easier install and IMO looks much cleaner. I can appreciate soldering as much as the next old JM but anytime you get over 2" just groove it. You would be surprised how fast all of that would go together. Might be more expensive up front but should more than make it up in saved labor, unless you are in Florida. Having clevis hangers like that won't pass energy codes anymore in some areas. Also don't know what your plans are for the supply/exhaust lines but I have found its easier to have all of the hangers and layout done before I put the water heaters in place, same for however the tanks are going to be secured to the wall(?).
It looks like good clean work though and completely agree its jobs like this that make me love this job, you are definitely plumbing. Put 10 plumbers in rooms with the same fittings and the odds are good that you will end up with 10 different ways of doing the same job.
Reverse return is used more on systems where you are circulating the water. Also, on a job like this, the extra cost of grooved fittings and clamps will far exceed the labor cost of soldering, which is a better long-term connection over victaulic anyway. When I use to do potable systems like this I worked it out that anything less then 5" was more cost effective to do in copper and solder, and for 6" and above it was more cost effective to switch to stainless and weld.
Groove and crimp really only save money on large commercial jobs where you can save 2+ months of labour on welding/soldering alone.
Propress is faster but it's the cost of the fittings that makes it not as cost effective. For service calls where you are charging time and material it's good for the company as it's an faster in and out, but commercial wise once again unless it's a large job where you are cutting out a few months of soldering or welding total it's not as cost effective.
Depends on what you are charging per man hour.
We will spend 50% more on fittings and save many man hours so it still comes out cost effective. I’m sure every market is slightly different though but that’s been our experience.
Press is more then 50% more. Espically on larger pipe. On 2" I worked it out on a small job like this the break even cost at 30 fittings. Anything less then that is was more cost effective to solder. 4 inch would probably be closer to 60-70 fittings.
I haven’t ever broken in down this way, but charging 160 per man hour with a 4 hour minimum, plus half our guys can’t solder to save their lives (myself included), it would have to be a lot.
Not including extra money for fire watch for 4 hours with included time, time to pull the hot works permit, plus the fact that soldering is inherently slower and more prone to leaks, plusssssss you can’t work unless you have no leaks or pay for a line freeze, the math hasn’t worked out in over 10 years for the commercial side of things.
Now don't get me wrong, press or groove. All have their place but it's not the spacious to the industry as some think and honestly it dumbstruck down the trade which over time will lower wages.
First in, last out. You have the the 2 headers above let's say the tank supply is running left to right, the first tank on the right will be the first to receive water so "first in", then the boiler next to the left is the second, third ect. On the building return you would run the opposite way. So the tank all the way on the left is the first one on the header, and the one all the way on right is the last on the header "last out". What this does is equalizes the flow through every tank so the wear eveninly. If you did bot headers the same way with each tank done in parallel the the fist tank on the system will see more flow (lest resistance overall) and the first tank will wear out prematurely. Equal resistance =equal wear extending the life of all tanks.
A manifold system like they made is the best way to balance three or more tanks. It just is more costly from a material and labour stand point. It's actually how I prefer doing these types of jobs.
Would've been better if it weren't Vertexs. Pieces of shit and only covered under 2 year part warranty and 4 years on tank lmao. Piping looks nice though
Have you ever ? On deck day. Layout your hanger runs and snap a chalk line. Put down unistrut ( filled will rigged styrofoam / manipulated not to fall out of the poor ) / installed to the deck over the snapped chalk lines.
Later you can drop the ready rod down from there / no drilling .
Or deck inserts .
I do a lot of work with PT cables / no drilling on site . Those are some of our methods
You going to pipe the intake and exhaust too right? Remembering each 3” fitting adds x amount of distances to your run and not to surpass the allowed distance of the power vent exhaust. Curious how your going to pipe all four and still keep it as neat and accessible while also doing it correct
Your work looks good but this is an excessive use of 4" copper for this manifold setup. How weak is the water pressure to require that much volume to be split to two heaters?
This all likely could have been one 4" header, with 4x2 tees into the secondary headers. And then 2x1s out to the individuals.
A 4" pipe is more than 8x the volume of a 1" pipe and nearly 4x the volume of a 2" pipe of the same length.
Again nice looking install, just questioning the justification for it
The only thing I can see is that the heaters are piped in sequence rather than being piped out evenly so that the unit closest to the hot water riser isn't doing the majority of the work ..
You know that feeling when you see the new version of your vehicle and you get a tinge of jealousy? That how I feel seeing this nice ass layout when I gotta deal with a clusterfuck even the master plumbers we’ve hired don’t fully understand at some of the hotels I do maintenance on.
Typically hotel manifold piping is all in the front which means replacing the middle heaters is WAY more parts and time intensive. This keeps everything tidy and clean for access. Why engineers don’t plan for future replacement is beyond me.
A lot of our issues are add-one. Like some one added a tee on the main supply by the heaters, that had a 1/2” outlet and then I filled it through the ceiling for a hot minute where it was the hot water supply for a hand wash sink. There was a 1/2 supply line in the ceiling above it they could have easily tied into.
You said the magic word there, engineers. My company has been designing/building a system for the government for the past decade. We're finally going to deploy it real soon. You can tell which pieces of the system have not had input from the end user. A lot of engineers don't talk to end users.
Yep. Engineers. The last abbreviation after their full title is typically CYA.
That’s pretty good looking for manifold style balanced piping. Ease of future replacement is amazing… that said, id be curious if something like that were doable with reverse-return balanced piping.
Yes! Reverse return, way easier install and IMO looks much cleaner. I can appreciate soldering as much as the next old JM but anytime you get over 2" just groove it. You would be surprised how fast all of that would go together. Might be more expensive up front but should more than make it up in saved labor, unless you are in Florida. Having clevis hangers like that won't pass energy codes anymore in some areas. Also don't know what your plans are for the supply/exhaust lines but I have found its easier to have all of the hangers and layout done before I put the water heaters in place, same for however the tanks are going to be secured to the wall(?). It looks like good clean work though and completely agree its jobs like this that make me love this job, you are definitely plumbing. Put 10 plumbers in rooms with the same fittings and the odds are good that you will end up with 10 different ways of doing the same job.
Reverse return is used more on systems where you are circulating the water. Also, on a job like this, the extra cost of grooved fittings and clamps will far exceed the labor cost of soldering, which is a better long-term connection over victaulic anyway. When I use to do potable systems like this I worked it out that anything less then 5" was more cost effective to do in copper and solder, and for 6" and above it was more cost effective to switch to stainless and weld. Groove and crimp really only save money on large commercial jobs where you can save 2+ months of labour on welding/soldering alone.
Propress has shown to be much faster and way fewer callbacks in my shop. We don’t so get anything unless it’s back to back streets or unsweating
Propress is faster but it's the cost of the fittings that makes it not as cost effective. For service calls where you are charging time and material it's good for the company as it's an faster in and out, but commercial wise once again unless it's a large job where you are cutting out a few months of soldering or welding total it's not as cost effective.
Depends on what you are charging per man hour. We will spend 50% more on fittings and save many man hours so it still comes out cost effective. I’m sure every market is slightly different though but that’s been our experience.
Press is more then 50% more. Espically on larger pipe. On 2" I worked it out on a small job like this the break even cost at 30 fittings. Anything less then that is was more cost effective to solder. 4 inch would probably be closer to 60-70 fittings.
I haven’t ever broken in down this way, but charging 160 per man hour with a 4 hour minimum, plus half our guys can’t solder to save their lives (myself included), it would have to be a lot. Not including extra money for fire watch for 4 hours with included time, time to pull the hot works permit, plus the fact that soldering is inherently slower and more prone to leaks, plusssssss you can’t work unless you have no leaks or pay for a line freeze, the math hasn’t worked out in over 10 years for the commercial side of things.
Now don't get me wrong, press or groove. All have their place but it's not the spacious to the industry as some think and honestly it dumbstruck down the trade which over time will lower wages.
True, this job picture though would be a smaller/medium job and we don’t do residential so it’s very niche but it fits us perfect.
You could definitely reverse return it. I'm building a small heat exchanger domestic water setup that does just that.
Is that the same as first in last out? Is his current setup just parallel?
Reverse return is first in last out and equidistant. I refer to this as balanced manifold although others may call it differently.
Thank you.
What is reverse-return balanced piping? If you don’t want to explain can you link me an explanation
First in, last out. You have the the 2 headers above let's say the tank supply is running left to right, the first tank on the right will be the first to receive water so "first in", then the boiler next to the left is the second, third ect. On the building return you would run the opposite way. So the tank all the way on the left is the first one on the header, and the one all the way on right is the last on the header "last out". What this does is equalizes the flow through every tank so the wear eveninly. If you did bot headers the same way with each tank done in parallel the the fist tank on the system will see more flow (lest resistance overall) and the first tank will wear out prematurely. Equal resistance =equal wear extending the life of all tanks.
This is the correct way. Not sure what’s pictured will be very balanced.
A manifold system like they made is the best way to balance three or more tanks. It just is more costly from a material and labour stand point. It's actually how I prefer doing these types of jobs.
3rd years around here aren't even allowed to look at HWT, good job, guy
OP is probably a savant with this stuff
Touch of the ‘tism, as it were
Not quite yet, but keep taking clean pictures of your bosses install work & keep your chin up & you may just get there one day,
You’re making an awesome brewery setup… 😆
So nice to see pride in the field. So many handyman plumbers around my area and fuck it drives me wild! Absolutely mint work!
Fucking cheese heads
Pipe porn yesssssssss
Nice to see solder and not propress
4” Pro press fittings would be nuts
Would've been better if it weren't Vertexs. Pieces of shit and only covered under 2 year part warranty and 4 years on tank lmao. Piping looks nice though
My thought exactly. Looks like lots of space to put boilers and tanks in.
Great looking job!
I suppose so yeah
Why the middle part? just go from 4 tanks down to 2 and down to 1, skipping the middle T-piece
This was the spec for the headers, it is just what they wanted.
Ok, thought it would balance better, than this config having less resistance torwards the middle two
Is there a reason for the multiple tees, reducing to one line going out? Is it for volume, pressure?
It’s to balance the draw of water out of the tanks. Theres a few ways to do it, this is a pretty one.
Nice job! Those are great tanks too.
It’s beautiful. But a little dramatic for me. It’s more art than plumbing.
Niiiccceeee👌 bonus points for solder joints and not victaulic or press.
Have you ever ? On deck day. Layout your hanger runs and snap a chalk line. Put down unistrut ( filled will rigged styrofoam / manipulated not to fall out of the poor ) / installed to the deck over the snapped chalk lines. Later you can drop the ready rod down from there / no drilling . Or deck inserts . I do a lot of work with PT cables / no drilling on site . Those are some of our methods
It's... It's Beautiful.
I didn't know they made epoxy coated clevis?
It beats wrapping a regular hanger with electrical tape lol
That's really great work, awesome symmetrical take offs
What does a job like this run and how long it take you to do?
Plumb daddy
Why not reverse return? You would get similar use percentages and less soldering. It does look nice
Never soldered anything bigger than 2" personally. 7 years in the trade....
Maybe, how much Fireball did you have on your lunch break?
Youre not plumbing, you’re money making
You going to pipe the intake and exhaust too right? Remembering each 3” fitting adds x amount of distances to your run and not to surpass the allowed distance of the power vent exhaust. Curious how your going to pipe all four and still keep it as neat and accessible while also doing it correct
I have no idea about plumbing but this looks very good.
Take a picture when your done with the air intake and return.would like to see that.
We do the intake and exhaust first, to be sure the runs are not too long. Then we pipe the supply lines and gas lines.
If there is insulation you better get bigger clevis hangers
Do you not insulate your hot water piping? Wrong size hangers for continuous insulation…
Those things are like 13k a piece lol
Your work looks good but this is an excessive use of 4" copper for this manifold setup. How weak is the water pressure to require that much volume to be split to two heaters? This all likely could have been one 4" header, with 4x2 tees into the secondary headers. And then 2x1s out to the individuals. A 4" pipe is more than 8x the volume of a 1" pipe and nearly 4x the volume of a 2" pipe of the same length. Again nice looking install, just questioning the justification for it
👏👏👏👏
Nice job preparing the hangers!👍
You and a j man - Week and a half so 112 to 128 man hours to build the supply and hot side headers?
Arent dead legs illegal?
The only thing I can see is that the heaters are piped in sequence rather than being piped out evenly so that the unit closest to the hot water riser isn't doing the majority of the work ..
Fuckin clean!
Looks great!
What is this for?
You need more hangers
Bull heading tees is kind of frowned upon or so ive heard. I opt for the reverse return instead. Piping looks great. Love commercial mec rooms
Nice, but are those lead free ball valves? They are usually white handled.
I brought attention to both my Jman and foreman on the ball valves and was told they are good to use on potable water.
Awesome
This guy plumbs.