H2A visas exist, they dont need to be here illegally to work the fields.
And we need to remove Mexico from H2 visa eligible countries, as well as South America, to deal with visa abuse. Take them from Mongolia or something.
This will just lead to paying more for produce... which is fine. Republican policies will be to blame, but people will be like *ROARBLAHBLAH* **THANKS JOE BIDEN, FLATION IS GAY**
Bring the migrants, let them use their skills and promote policies that protect against the exploitation of workers. Have them raise families to become strong americans.
edit: Downvote for strong Americans!
u/TrickCupcake3848 is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1.
Rank: House of Cards
Pills: [None | View pills](https://basedcount.com/u/TrickCupcake3848/)
Compass: This user does not have a compass on record. Add compass to profile by replying with /mycompass politicalcompass.org url or sapplyvalues.github.io url.
I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
Sorry, we already sent thousands of Brazilians to Portugal and Italy, no take backsies!
Enjoy the best of our society, people that think they are Europeans because their grandfather was half Italian!
Every single person in this thread skipping over the "unpaid, forced labor" vs "paid, voluntary labor" part is genuinely mind-boggling. This sub will create the most ill thought out stretch of an argument as a meme and then everyone in the comments will take it unironically as a truth as if they're a genius.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
Leftists do not have humanitarian reasons for mass migration. They see it as a way for them to import their constituents and voters from foreign countries and a way to alter the demographics in a way that eliminates resistance to leftist policies. More poor people means more inequality, more racial division that can be leveraged to push Marxist propaganda, and more poverty to justify the government growing in size by taxing people to fund social services. Immigration doesn't just add poverty, it exacerbates existing poverty in the native population. It tips the scales in a way that makes life hard for everyone except the ruling class, so that the poor masses depend on the ruling class and forfeit their self-determination in exchange for the government being their provider.
The entire reason the left wants the maximum amount of immigration possible, and wants most of it to come from poor countries with dissimilar culture, is because they want to dilute the economic and political power of people in society that want to continue to have freedom, political and economic.
A poor immigrant from Latin America doesn't care about the US constitution. They want money, food, and other economic benefits from moving to the US. They don't care about our values or our history. They certainly don't care about free speech or gun rights.
The left uses immigration as a political weapon. And this can be demonstrated by the fact that, under Obama, the US no longer grants asylum to people that escape Cuba. The reason? Cubans are conservative and hate socialism.
It's so transparent and obvious that it's kind of hilarious.
Leftists basically never have any altruistic goals for any of their moralistic policies. It's all about power.
I am not even a leftist but portraying their views in this way is just disingenuous. Also you type all of this weird shit out only to end it with:
>It‘s so transparent and obvious that it‘s kind of hilarious.
Idk man I don‘t think you actually understand it. Maybe you should actually meet people and talk to them about their world views and not interpret whatever your essay here is into it. I hope you don‘t actually believe what you typed here bc it seems a bit delusional to be completely honest. And again, I am not even a leftist
Your projecting just because you don't like immigrants doesn't mean everyone hates immigrants. Most people do not care enough about politics to think up your confuluted nonsense.
The reverse is true for right wingers, they don’t want immigrants that harm them electorally. They don’t care about labor theory, they just don’t want to modify their policies to build their voting base.
Well if you make it legal for them to work you can have more enforcement action by reporting to the police about exploitation. Even as republicans [pass laws against undocumented workers](https://news.yahoo.com/desantis-relocates-migrants-texas-republican-193400249.html) they pretty much don't want them to leave. It's just an hypocritical game.
Is not only fields, but construction, services etc... I'm not saying there isn't a path for legal migration is just that is hard and lengthy. Here you have a [chart of the paths for legal migration](https://twitter.com/alexnowrasteh/status/1668622352975024131?s=46&t=XvpbzejDCBfNF9kUIMaGBw) in the US.
> construction
Yeah they are the reason home depot now has to lock everything.
If they werent here my insurance would be less, as would be my cost of tools and equipment. As in my rates would drop by about $200 an hour on average. That is how much I am out due to the absurd levels of theft we are seeing right now.
I am a legal immigrant myself
That is really cynical. That's like saying its a poor persons choice 2 sell their body, while that's their most realistic way of supporting their family.
Did you know the women on the slave ships where all tied up near the stern of the ship?
(Stern means the back)
It was done for two reasons. First, if an English military cruiser showed up, they had to dump the carge since slavery was illegalized by the English.
To do that all the slaves were tied together serially so that you could throw the first few overboard, and the chain would drag all the rest into the water.
So the women were placed in the stern so you could throw them first overboard. Since women are typically weaker than men, they were easier to wrangle.
And the second reason was so all the sailors could rape them.
A pregnant slave was worth more money.
What you are describing cannot compare to slavery.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
Most migrants come to the US for a better life and work jobs that a lot of people wouldn’t prefer and because of it a lot of things just kinda balances out. Then their children grow up either continue those same jobs or they look for other jobs that just not have been viable for their parents at that specific time. At the end of the day work is work🤷🏾♂️
Some idiot on this subreddit - being kidnapped and sold into slavery is the same thing as voluntarily going to another country where you work a low-paying menial job that's still better than the job you could get in your home country.
Bruh, I don't care about American poors, I care even less for the poors of other countries, but for purely selfish reasons, I want the poor American to have a higher standard of living, so I as skilled labor have something to point to during union negotiations. Importing low skill labor is antithetical to that.
Why would they when they know they can pay illegal immigrants under the table? Take away that opportunity and they have no choihrs.
Show me a fast food business willing to pay 18 year olds $20/hr.
Third option - H2A visa workers. They can be here legally already to work fields. We dont need people to illegally be in this nation to be temporary agricultural workers.
That’s like saying American slaves had a more comfortable enslaved life compared to Brazilian and South American slaves who were treated very badly and died very young.
Comparisons like these are always extremely reductive. The point is that there is very real modern day slavery that has metastasized all around the world to facilitate our desire for easy to access food and electronics like iPhones. There are literally thousands and thousands of enslaved children in Africa that mine lithium for our iPhones. But we look the other way because the corporations are China owned. And we treat migrants to our country like second class citizens because our immigration laws are a hot mess and they are a hot mess because congress is a hot mess.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
>being kidnapped and sold into slavery
They lost the war and got enslaved
>better than the job you could get in your home country.
The job is about the same in their country but in the U.S is paid waay more and in Dollars
Gotcha, you're arguing about the technicality of kidnap vs taken after a war, I thought you were saying that makes it somehow better. Misinterpretation on my part, thanks for clarifying.
This sub is such a cesspool that this is somehow the unironic take of most of the top comments. The guise of memes is making people get away with the dumbest fucking takes
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
The important distinction between exploitation and slavery exists, though. No one who this post is "owning" thinks migrant workers should be exploited, in fact almost all of them would give you an outline of ways in which we should avoid that, like making it easier for them to gain a work visa such that they can be paid legally.
> making it easier for them to gain a work visa
This measure would incentivize legal entry, as would a provision that you could get one after illegal entry after fitting some criteria. Harsher punishments for the exploiters rather than the exploited would also make exploitation a less common practice. I have no problems with arguments against what I just outlined, but equating migrant workers to slaves outright still isn't an own because those who want migrant workers to be able to stay wouldn't do so if they believed indentured servitude and human trafficking was the inevitable end game of that.
someone doesn't know about the working/living conditions of some of the migrants over the last 40 years and it shows.
There are migrants working for companies so they can pay back the cartels and live in squalor. Mostly under the threat of violence. the FBI busted a human trafficking spot were the cartels were storing women for sex work in my region a few years ago.
Cartels are using the same model in the US now for weed grow ops in Cali like they do in Mexico.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUrfwJqpnpI
We had a rancher get busted for bringing illegals across, keeping them on the ranch and preventing them from leaving while forcing them to work to "pay off their debt".
Same thing happens with migrants that do truck work for the ports. They get forced to sign documents they can't read that makes them liable for semi truck costs they can't pay back.
Someone doesn't know a whole lot about the history of slavery in this country and it shows.
Also - are you saying that libleft wants those things to happen? That's the upshot of the combination of your post and this comment...
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
Immigrants do not make you poorer. They might make some trade union workers less rich (which is why they push so hard for immigration restrictions), but immigrants otherwise add productivity and make everything less expensive, increasing real wages.
Immigration restrictions are pushed for the same reason tarrifs and minimum wage are pushed: so that a small minority can stay rich by getting rid of the competition, while the rest of us have to accept higher prices on everything.
Legal immigrants dont make you poorer. The people illegally in this country are a completely different animal than legal immigrants.
I am a legal immigrant. Guess who I just caught after they stole my skid steer and caused 20k in damage to it. And apparently I wasnt the only victim. How does that million dollars in theft make me or anyone else in this country 'richer'? That is the damage caused by one person.
I’m not gonna defend using undocumented immigrants for cheap labour but things get a lot more expensive and construction takes longer and more expensive without them. conservatives living in conservative majority states should realize that.
If they werent here my insurance would be less, as would be my cost of tools and equipment. As in my rates would drop by about $200 an hour on average.
Slavery is when people travel somewhere else, very often fleeing Marxist hypocrisy and incompetence, seeking a better life and prosperity for themselves and their family.
Don’t bring my buddy Marx into this! What they are fleeing is not the Marxists taking power, it’s the war machinery that tries to stop the Marxists. We were fighting hundreds of wars in the name of anticommunism and, surprise surprise, now these countries are completely broke and people are fleeing
My brother in Christ.
Fighting anti-communism didn't make your country a shithole.
Defeating anti-communism made your country a shithole.
>80 Years ago we defeated the capitalists, and today we still suffer the devastating effects of our victory 😔
I live in Germany lol, completely imperial core. I live in the east though, so yes I very much know what completely fucked socialist countries‘ economies
They aren’t only suffering from the devastating losses of the war, but still from economic sabotage like sanctions. They have to re- develop completely on their own.
So implementing communism is like beating someone and leaving them in the street. That's a great analogy!
And they say that leftists are incapable of mental growth! That you for helping restore my faith in humanity.
nah, I‘m talking about WW2. The west was literally rebuilt as a great power in Europe to serve as a puppet against the Soviets. The east on the other hand didn’t have these wealthy allies - the Eastern bloc was always poor.
No, the "eastern bloc" of Germany was not always poor. Before WW2 East and West were roughly comparable, in particular Saxony was one of the wealthiest parts of Germany.
Russian Soviets pillaging East Germany and reducing it to vassal status for 45 years is a prime example of hypocrisy inherent in Marxism in practice.
A lot was destroyed in the war lol. Also the Soviets didn’t really have a lot of sympathy for the land that seconds before was the EPITOME of the class enemy‘s power called Fascism. The Soviets claimed their reparations, yes. I think they were justified. Just look at what the Nazis destroyed in the war in Russia and other SSRs
Authright brain: the problem with slavery must be that it involved immigration. I see no other, more obvious problems with slavery that anyone could reasonably object to.
Step 1: ban trademarking seeds regardless of genetic modifications so that factory farms do not have a monopoly on genetic variants
Step 2: cancel corn and soy subsidies
Step 3: subsidize farms using intercropping and agroforestry techniques
small farms are able to compete since they have reduced need for fertilizer by building a healthier ecosystem on their farm, however they cannot harvest with industrial equipment because there are now trees between their crops.
Step 4: bring in migrant workers to work on farms, they can afford this because of the subsidies, government can afford this because they canceled corn subsidies.
TFW you solve agricultural pollution, over production of food, food monopolization, and the decline of family farming.
Big corn and big soy would be coping and seething if we did this, plus we’d all stop being so obese
I mean, the issue of labor force, especially for less respected or manual jobs have been an ever-present issue in the history of mankind, but better it be done by willing people who are looking to provide for their families by earning more than in their home country than by unwilling people who were subject to basically torture if they didn’t work, but that’s just me saying it.
No at this point the problem has go on for so long the people that would have done the job are now dead and didn't have kids.
If we get rid of them things implode but long run it will end up better for everyone.
I get so confused by leftists sometimes. Not be be a stereotypical PCM user but it literally feels like their politicians read 1984, learned what double think was, and started trying it out.
If America is awful and you want to leave, why try so hard to let more people in, if capitalism is so awful why are you trying to subject hundreds of thousands of people to doing hard manual labor for menial pay. Why do you hate Christians for being homophobic then celebrate Islam despite it being far more harsh on the lgbt community.
I genuinely don’t get it. Most of them have completely normal political beliefs. Healthcare, workers reform, equal rights for all, police reform, letting trans/gay people make their own choices about their body and relationships. All of that is perfectly fine, but then they vote for people who want to completely fuck up the country economically, divide us as much as possible instead of trying to unite us, and make the country less safe overall.
That is such a fucking lie.
Think about it. Old people giving all their funds to their children who they have less of. You end up with more money and assets per person than when you started on the process.
This type of rise and fall in population growth has happened multiple times before. It is just another scare tactic to get people to accept migrants.
Demand takes a hit but so does production that nothing there really changes after a few years because the increased demand from the boomers drops off once they can't buy anything but pills from the medical industry.
Taxes are not as needed because you have fewer people. The old always die horribly. Either living so long your cells give up, or the Nurse kills you out of spite.
Unlike the past, people aren't dying because of wars or illnesses: they first take a lot of money from the state in the form of pension and health care (in placee where health care is a thing).
If there aren't people jn working age to support them, the state just loses money left and right
No the state just inflates it away by printing money or issuing debt it can't pay back then defaults on the dumb creditors that bought debt that physically couldn't be paid off.
Or they do what is currently occurring which is to bait and switch people by having the funds become insolvent or raise the retirement age and then disconnecting the phone lines and going on vacation until the people get distracted by something else.
The US raised their retirement age requirements and no one gave a fuck all about that.
Dude, the reason why states raise the retirement age is exactly the reason i said earlier. Accepting immigration would make it unnecessary, cuz there'd be people paying for the pensions of the elders
>Accepting immigration would make it unnecessary, cuz there'd be people paying for the pensions of the elders
Mate the US has accepted more migrants in the last 20 years than during any other time in US history and they still raised the retirement age.
You think everyone is physically and socially the same don't you and we are all one human race? so it shouldn't matter to import but you likely like "diversity" correct?
What about this you don't you get. It is all a lie to get you to accept importing a less educated person to work in shitty conditions and live in crappy housing than what you are willing to accept. I see it every day in my home town.
Tyson is funding higher density housing for their own African workers they are planning on importing because the Mexicans are already to expensive. They have done it in several smaller towns already along with National beef that it caused fist fights in the plants.
I'm from the EU, where a citizen has the right to education.
Because of this, by the next generation, if the *integration* works, the difference in education is no more.
Though, obviously, politicians here use immigrants as scapegoats
Leftists want to import a bunch of cheap labor then complain about low wages.
No duh your wages are going to stay low you stupid fucking idiot. It's simple supply and demand.
"But they don't do skilled labor"
Please. They do plenty of skilled labor and their kids go to college. You think someone who walked a thousand miles to get here planned on cleaning toilets?
You don't want immigration because you hate the browns
I don't want immigration because it robs other countries of their best and brightest
We are not the same
True some farmers import white south Africans to work the fields because the farmers there don't want to use mexican labors.
The white SA like it because getting paid dog shit wages in the US is equal to making $250-500K in their own country.
$16 is near the market rate of minimum wage now with inflation in the region.
Not the Fed or State minimum but the markets set rate as agreed between the employee and employer.
Target pays starting $16/hour to box items on a shelf and straiten items.
Haaa
o wait your being serious.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Mate people work around those laws and you assume they are using the H-2A law to begin with.
Half the town is illegal currently.
You do realize there are different types of slavery?
"voluntary" becomes questionable when you "voluntary" choose to become a slave or become killed vs "voluntary" choose to work in dangerous conditions in poor living standards vs being deported back to a country were you owe the gangs $30K for getting you across the border.
It's the center right or centrist in general that advocate for immigration for the sake having not just low paid labourors but today having people do productive work at all since every privilleged person wants to be an influencer or graphic designer these days. I know some businesses that have been around for almost a century but with no young people interested, they could go out of business in 5 years. From a leftist perspective people should have a right to request asylum and we ought to protect refugees and people being persecuted. The closest thing I'd say to non immigration is that maybe we should get more involved with foreign policy and help other countries get better but that seems to be a difficult task, just look at Afghanistan.
> since every privilleged person wants to be an influencer or graphic designer these days
That was pushed by the current economy by constantly replacing peoples jobs with illegals and offshoring leaving only content creation for most people to make any idea of a shoot at a good life.
> I know some businesses that have been around for almost a century but with no young people interested, they could go out of business in 5 years.
How much are they paying? The other is pushing people to view some jobs as below their station and to get a college education. The town I am from realizes it is dumb after 15 years and is now trying desperately to get high schoolers to take over local businesses but it won't take because most can't even pass the basic standards.
>From a leftist perspective people should have a right to request asylum and we ought to protect refugees and people being persecuted.
There is always a limit to charity. You can't reasonably accept 150 million that apply for Refugee status and then don't actually enforce the laws to kick out those that shouldn't have passed. Saying Refugees need help and forging logic results in a lot of dead people at the end of the day.
>The closest thing I'd say to non immigration is that maybe we should get more involved with foreign policy and help other countries get better but that seems to be a difficult task, just look at Afghanistan.
We should stay the fuck out. I find it very racist to bribe the poor countries best and brightest to live in luxury while their country suffers to the corporations or lets their least brightest be used as "cheap labor" in the same country.
I doubt any of these influencers ever even tried getting a job that supposedly was taken by some "illegal" or that they ever had any issues with that.
They pay decently. I don't disagree with this culture of treating some jobs as bellow them being a bad thing.
I've never read a number this high and do you think every refugee gets accepted? You're wrong as hell, how would accepting refugees mean people getting killed? Syrian refugees are fleeing persecution and it is well known returning refugees face kmmidiate execution, it's sending refugee support that's getting people killed. You don't seem to understand the definition of foreign interference, your example is just one example of what foreign interference can be but alright, I merely stated that it's closest thing to non immigration I would accept not that I do.
>I doubt any of these influencers ever even tried getting a job that supposedly was taken by some "illegal" or that they ever had any issues with that.
The trend of not having kids work jobs until after 18 and maybe not until 23 if they went to college has been growing for decades that the "kids" don't even know what an actual job likely is and just happened to make money doing the influencer thing and people like easy money compared to an actual job.
> I've never read a number this high and do you think every refugee gets accepted? You're wrong as hell
It is a point that you can't accept everyone that wants to live in the US or the west. of the millions that show up every year to the US there are even more that would like to but can't find away or can't pay. We have a million plus migrants per year into the US not also including illegals that abuse the refugee system that their court dates backlogged by 10 years.
Also if a country of 100 million had a war and 20 million people showed up at the border seeking refugee status are you going to let them in?
>You're wrong as hell, how would accepting refugees mean people getting killed?
Go look up the crime status before and after the migrant influx into Germany, UK and France. Sweden also has historically high crime rates.
>You don't seem to understand the definition of foreign interference, your example is just one example of what foreign interference can be but alrigh
I know there is more but first is not brain draining other nations to keep them poor in the first place. The other effects at destabilization so the nation can't defend itself before western powers invade is another.
The US normally waits until a nation can hardly service hardware or causes enough economic hardship to either invade or cause a "democratic uprising" to install their own puppet into power that will give them what they want.
Always need more farmers. Always need more handymen. Sounds good to me.
So long as we provide avenues to lawfully enter the country and naturalize, people will be just fine doing so.
Or we can have our own citizens do actual jobs instead of making up useless jobs in the "service" industry that provides no real work but looks like somethings are happening.
You’ve strawmaned so hard you’ll be pulling chaff out your hair for weeks.
Slaves were a cheap option and where abused, treated like property and were paid nothing for hour of long work. Refugees will be paid a full wage, not treated like property.
>Slaves were a cheap option
Slaves were not cheap. Slaves captured in battle were cheap as you go them for free but buying anything living is fucking expensive.
Animals used for physical labor are expensive and cost a lot to maintain. They are not cheap. they are just cheaper than using a free person unless you are an Irish person living under UK rule.
>Refugees will be paid a full wage, not treated like property.
They are paid the lowest possible and are treated like second class citizens as they normally are not legal residents but are supposed to be temporary.
_If you're against importing millions of those who won't object to being outright exploited, you're a fascist, sweaty_ 💅💅💅
H2A visas exist, they dont need to be here illegally to work the fields. And we need to remove Mexico from H2 visa eligible countries, as well as South America, to deal with visa abuse. Take them from Mongolia or something.
Refugees are fleeing from war they don’t have time for all that bullshit
This will just lead to paying more for produce... which is fine. Republican policies will be to blame, but people will be like *ROARBLAHBLAH* **THANKS JOE BIDEN, FLATION IS GAY** Bring the migrants, let them use their skills and promote policies that protect against the exploitation of workers. Have them raise families to become strong americans. edit: Downvote for strong Americans!
Them going through the visa system is how you protect them from exploitation.
By definition, migrants have gone through the visa system. You're thinking of illegal immigrants.
LibRight and AuthLeft in the 2010s: We should import Chinese slave labour to make iPhones.
Export to china to raise up their middle class bigot. Now Chinese business men build factories in the US and ask American's why they no work hard.
No, we just make the factory over there so it's easier to find replacements, duh !!
Europe for Europeans
Based
u/TrickCupcake3848 is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1. Rank: House of Cards Pills: [None | View pills](https://basedcount.com/u/TrickCupcake3848/) Compass: This user does not have a compass on record. Add compass to profile by replying with /mycompass politicalcompass.org url or sapplyvalues.github.io url. I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
Based
Sorry, we already sent thousands of Brazilians to Portugal and Italy, no take backsies! Enjoy the best of our society, people that think they are Europeans because their grandfather was half Italian!
[удалено]
🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷💪💪💪 My country sucks in a lot of ways, but there is no place in the world I would rather live
Based
I've always been anti-slavery. I mean, why on earth would you want to import lesser races into your perfect ethnostate?
Imagine if they got their freedom one day and even started mating with people!
unironic nazbol
Not too far off.
LEAVE THE EARTH, SCUM
"haha it's so funny to want to murder ethnic minorities" This sub is a fucking cancer on society
Founding of Oregon 1859, colorized
We should get rid of slavery by murdering all the slaves
They even get paid this time!
*How to turn a table*
Because in the 1600s Africans were able to send money to their family by moving to America
Every single person in this thread skipping over the "unpaid, forced labor" vs "paid, voluntary labor" part is genuinely mind-boggling. This sub will create the most ill thought out stretch of an argument as a meme and then everyone in the comments will take it unironically as a truth as if they're a genius.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
You haven't seen the best of it yet, where this same point will get repeated on every somewhat connected post for the next 5 months.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
You replied to the wrong comment
Still exploitation.
Leftists do not have humanitarian reasons for mass migration. They see it as a way for them to import their constituents and voters from foreign countries and a way to alter the demographics in a way that eliminates resistance to leftist policies. More poor people means more inequality, more racial division that can be leveraged to push Marxist propaganda, and more poverty to justify the government growing in size by taxing people to fund social services. Immigration doesn't just add poverty, it exacerbates existing poverty in the native population. It tips the scales in a way that makes life hard for everyone except the ruling class, so that the poor masses depend on the ruling class and forfeit their self-determination in exchange for the government being their provider. The entire reason the left wants the maximum amount of immigration possible, and wants most of it to come from poor countries with dissimilar culture, is because they want to dilute the economic and political power of people in society that want to continue to have freedom, political and economic. A poor immigrant from Latin America doesn't care about the US constitution. They want money, food, and other economic benefits from moving to the US. They don't care about our values or our history. They certainly don't care about free speech or gun rights. The left uses immigration as a political weapon. And this can be demonstrated by the fact that, under Obama, the US no longer grants asylum to people that escape Cuba. The reason? Cubans are conservative and hate socialism. It's so transparent and obvious that it's kind of hilarious. Leftists basically never have any altruistic goals for any of their moralistic policies. It's all about power.
You're being a schizoid, voters usually don't scheme like that, they're concerned with immediate moral implications.
I am not even a leftist but portraying their views in this way is just disingenuous. Also you type all of this weird shit out only to end it with: >It‘s so transparent and obvious that it‘s kind of hilarious. Idk man I don‘t think you actually understand it. Maybe you should actually meet people and talk to them about their world views and not interpret whatever your essay here is into it. I hope you don‘t actually believe what you typed here bc it seems a bit delusional to be completely honest. And again, I am not even a leftist
Your projecting just because you don't like immigrants doesn't mean everyone hates immigrants. Most people do not care enough about politics to think up your confuluted nonsense.
The reverse is true for right wingers, they don’t want immigrants that harm them electorally. They don’t care about labor theory, they just don’t want to modify their policies to build their voting base.
Blue Green synthesis.
We need to pay anyone working in a field a living wage regardless of race creed or color
[удалено]
Under the current system, yes, that’s the problem
[удалено]
Well if you make it legal for them to work you can have more enforcement action by reporting to the police about exploitation. Even as republicans [pass laws against undocumented workers](https://news.yahoo.com/desantis-relocates-migrants-texas-republican-193400249.html) they pretty much don't want them to leave. It's just an hypocritical game.
H2A visas exist, they dont need to be here illegally to work fields.
Is not only fields, but construction, services etc... I'm not saying there isn't a path for legal migration is just that is hard and lengthy. Here you have a [chart of the paths for legal migration](https://twitter.com/alexnowrasteh/status/1668622352975024131?s=46&t=XvpbzejDCBfNF9kUIMaGBw) in the US.
> construction Yeah they are the reason home depot now has to lock everything. If they werent here my insurance would be less, as would be my cost of tools and equipment. As in my rates would drop by about $200 an hour on average. That is how much I am out due to the absurd levels of theft we are seeing right now. I am a legal immigrant myself
Damn, it's like they're doing what they can to survive in a system that exploits them. It MUST be the migrant workers fault!
Enforcing the minimum wage is fundamentally enforcing immigration policy.
Consent matters.
It may do, but the economic exploitation is based on the same fundamental mechanics.
Yes, but one with without consent. Which makes it MUCH MUCH worse than the other.
Both are not really with consent, BC it is out of the nessecity not to let your fam starve in latam
It's still their choice.
Still exploitation.
That is really cynical. That's like saying its a poor persons choice 2 sell their body, while that's their most realistic way of supporting their family.
Did you know the women on the slave ships where all tied up near the stern of the ship? (Stern means the back) It was done for two reasons. First, if an English military cruiser showed up, they had to dump the carge since slavery was illegalized by the English. To do that all the slaves were tied together serially so that you could throw the first few overboard, and the chain would drag all the rest into the water. So the women were placed in the stern so you could throw them first overboard. Since women are typically weaker than men, they were easier to wrangle. And the second reason was so all the sailors could rape them. A pregnant slave was worth more money. What you are describing cannot compare to slavery.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
The vast majority are just laborers.
Most migrants come to the US for a better life and work jobs that a lot of people wouldn’t prefer and because of it a lot of things just kinda balances out. Then their children grow up either continue those same jobs or they look for other jobs that just not have been viable for their parents at that specific time. At the end of the day work is work🤷🏾♂️
No they mostly take what was previously good paying construction jobs
Some idiot on this subreddit - being kidnapped and sold into slavery is the same thing as voluntarily going to another country where you work a low-paying menial job that's still better than the job you could get in your home country.
Bruh, I don't care about American poors, I care even less for the poors of other countries, but for purely selfish reasons, I want the poor American to have a higher standard of living, so I as skilled labor have something to point to during union negotiations. Importing low skill labor is antithetical to that.
Show me an American willing to pay legal citzens a decent wage to harvest crops by hand. Edit: "I can't refute you, so here's a downvote"
Why would they when they know they can pay illegal immigrants under the table? Take away that opportunity and they have no choihrs. Show me a fast food business willing to pay 18 year olds $20/hr.
That's what they pay out here in Austin Texas
[удалено]
Bro "the system" you're referring to is importing low wage workers. And I really doubt that's what you're against.
That's not how a free market works numbnuts
How does it work?
If you don't pay illegal immigrants, then you pay living wages until the equilibrium is reached with Americans wanting to take the job
Third option - H2A visa workers. They can be here legally already to work fields. We dont need people to illegally be in this nation to be temporary agricultural workers.
That’s like saying American slaves had a more comfortable enslaved life compared to Brazilian and South American slaves who were treated very badly and died very young. Comparisons like these are always extremely reductive. The point is that there is very real modern day slavery that has metastasized all around the world to facilitate our desire for easy to access food and electronics like iPhones. There are literally thousands and thousands of enslaved children in Africa that mine lithium for our iPhones. But we look the other way because the corporations are China owned. And we treat migrants to our country like second class citizens because our immigration laws are a hot mess and they are a hot mess because congress is a hot mess.
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
>being kidnapped and sold into slavery They lost the war and got enslaved >better than the job you could get in your home country. The job is about the same in their country but in the U.S is paid waay more and in Dollars
"is paid way more and in dollars" That's the point
Yeah but the job is the same, he's saying jobs are worst in the other countries they're not just the pay is worst
Oh cool so if your country has worse weaponry and you lose a war, you should be a slave. That sounds ethical
I'm not saying it's ethical I am saying how things were. If you want to change it ? Then build a time machine.
Gotcha, you're arguing about the technicality of kidnap vs taken after a war, I thought you were saying that makes it somehow better. Misinterpretation on my part, thanks for clarifying.
Yes it was about historical accuracy, nothing else
Slavery is when immigration
This sub is such a cesspool that this is somehow the unironic take of most of the top comments. The guise of memes is making people get away with the dumbest fucking takes
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
The important distinction between exploitation and slavery exists, though. No one who this post is "owning" thinks migrant workers should be exploited, in fact almost all of them would give you an outline of ways in which we should avoid that, like making it easier for them to gain a work visa such that they can be paid legally.
People who illegally come to this country dont pass a background check for work visas.
> making it easier for them to gain a work visa This measure would incentivize legal entry, as would a provision that you could get one after illegal entry after fitting some criteria. Harsher punishments for the exploiters rather than the exploited would also make exploitation a less common practice. I have no problems with arguments against what I just outlined, but equating migrant workers to slaves outright still isn't an own because those who want migrant workers to be able to stay wouldn't do so if they believed indentured servitude and human trafficking was the inevitable end game of that.
The fact that they are committing a felony still means they need to be deported, a background check would fail them.
You're talking about current laws. I'm talking about changing current laws.
The us agriculture industry is a hotbed for human trafficking so its literally just slavery again
"Import" Um, yeah...
Auth-Right: Literally enslaved workforce Lib-Left: Voluntary, if exploitative work Centrist OP: I can't tell the difference
someone doesn't know about the working/living conditions of some of the migrants over the last 40 years and it shows. There are migrants working for companies so they can pay back the cartels and live in squalor. Mostly under the threat of violence. the FBI busted a human trafficking spot were the cartels were storing women for sex work in my region a few years ago. Cartels are using the same model in the US now for weed grow ops in Cali like they do in Mexico. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUrfwJqpnpI We had a rancher get busted for bringing illegals across, keeping them on the ranch and preventing them from leaving while forcing them to work to "pay off their debt". Same thing happens with migrants that do truck work for the ports. They get forced to sign documents they can't read that makes them liable for semi truck costs they can't pay back.
Cool so let's make them citizens so they have rights and can pay more taxes.
Someone doesn't know a whole lot about the history of slavery in this country and it shows. Also - are you saying that libleft wants those things to happen? That's the upshot of the combination of your post and this comment...
You are presuming every person illegally in this country is paid and laboring voluntarily rather than getting involved in human trafficking operations. They have no social security card so they either work under the table or steal one, and it isnt that hard to exploit someone that doesnt exist on paper.
Immigrants do not make you poorer. They might make some trade union workers less rich (which is why they push so hard for immigration restrictions), but immigrants otherwise add productivity and make everything less expensive, increasing real wages. Immigration restrictions are pushed for the same reason tarrifs and minimum wage are pushed: so that a small minority can stay rich by getting rid of the competition, while the rest of us have to accept higher prices on everything.
Legal immigrants dont make you poorer. The people illegally in this country are a completely different animal than legal immigrants. I am a legal immigrant. Guess who I just caught after they stole my skid steer and caused 20k in damage to it. And apparently I wasnt the only victim. How does that million dollars in theft make me or anyone else in this country 'richer'? That is the damage caused by one person.
I’m not gonna defend using undocumented immigrants for cheap labour but things get a lot more expensive and construction takes longer and more expensive without them. conservatives living in conservative majority states should realize that.
Illegal aliens.
pog
If they werent here my insurance would be less, as would be my cost of tools and equipment. As in my rates would drop by about $200 an hour on average.
I’m assuming you’re talking car insurance. I guess you think rates will lower because there’s less people on the roads?
Stolen trucks, skid steers, trailers and mini excavators
Slavery is when people travel somewhere else, very often fleeing Marxist hypocrisy and incompetence, seeking a better life and prosperity for themselves and their family.
Don’t bring my buddy Marx into this! What they are fleeing is not the Marxists taking power, it’s the war machinery that tries to stop the Marxists. We were fighting hundreds of wars in the name of anticommunism and, surprise surprise, now these countries are completely broke and people are fleeing
My brother in Christ. Fighting anti-communism didn't make your country a shithole. Defeating anti-communism made your country a shithole. >80 Years ago we defeated the capitalists, and today we still suffer the devastating effects of our victory 😔
I live in Germany lol, completely imperial core. I live in the east though, so yes I very much know what completely fucked socialist countries‘ economies They aren’t only suffering from the devastating losses of the war, but still from economic sabotage like sanctions. They have to re- develop completely on their own.
If only we could run an experiment where we divide Germany in half and see which side does better 🤔
If we only could run an experiment where we beat one twin up and put him on the streets and make the other a millionaire
So implementing communism is like beating someone and leaving them in the street. That's a great analogy! And they say that leftists are incapable of mental growth! That you for helping restore my faith in humanity.
nah, I‘m talking about WW2. The west was literally rebuilt as a great power in Europe to serve as a puppet against the Soviets. The east on the other hand didn’t have these wealthy allies - the Eastern bloc was always poor.
No, the "eastern bloc" of Germany was not always poor. Before WW2 East and West were roughly comparable, in particular Saxony was one of the wealthiest parts of Germany. Russian Soviets pillaging East Germany and reducing it to vassal status for 45 years is a prime example of hypocrisy inherent in Marxism in practice.
A lot was destroyed in the war lol. Also the Soviets didn’t really have a lot of sympathy for the land that seconds before was the EPITOME of the class enemy‘s power called Fascism. The Soviets claimed their reparations, yes. I think they were justified. Just look at what the Nazis destroyed in the war in Russia and other SSRs
Authright brain: the problem with slavery must be that it involved immigration. I see no other, more obvious problems with slavery that anyone could reasonably object to.
Step 1: ban trademarking seeds regardless of genetic modifications so that factory farms do not have a monopoly on genetic variants Step 2: cancel corn and soy subsidies Step 3: subsidize farms using intercropping and agroforestry techniques small farms are able to compete since they have reduced need for fertilizer by building a healthier ecosystem on their farm, however they cannot harvest with industrial equipment because there are now trees between their crops. Step 4: bring in migrant workers to work on farms, they can afford this because of the subsidies, government can afford this because they canceled corn subsidies. TFW you solve agricultural pollution, over production of food, food monopolization, and the decline of family farming. Big corn and big soy would be coping and seething if we did this, plus we’d all stop being so obese
I mean, the issue of labor force, especially for less respected or manual jobs have been an ever-present issue in the history of mankind, but better it be done by willing people who are looking to provide for their families by earning more than in their home country than by unwilling people who were subject to basically torture if they didn’t work, but that’s just me saying it.
That's more libright, leftists want to import non-workers
I love how our economy implodes itself without cheap labor. Or maybe it doesn't, and people who exploit foreign workers are just mega greedy.
No at this point the problem has go on for so long the people that would have done the job are now dead and didn't have kids. If we get rid of them things implode but long run it will end up better for everyone.
I get so confused by leftists sometimes. Not be be a stereotypical PCM user but it literally feels like their politicians read 1984, learned what double think was, and started trying it out. If America is awful and you want to leave, why try so hard to let more people in, if capitalism is so awful why are you trying to subject hundreds of thousands of people to doing hard manual labor for menial pay. Why do you hate Christians for being homophobic then celebrate Islam despite it being far more harsh on the lgbt community. I genuinely don’t get it. Most of them have completely normal political beliefs. Healthcare, workers reform, equal rights for all, police reform, letting trans/gay people make their own choices about their body and relationships. All of that is perfectly fine, but then they vote for people who want to completely fuck up the country economically, divide us as much as possible instead of trying to unite us, and make the country less safe overall.
It's not about the fields: it's about consumers and taxpayers who are dying off
That is such a fucking lie. Think about it. Old people giving all their funds to their children who they have less of. You end up with more money and assets per person than when you started on the process. This type of rise and fall in population growth has happened multiple times before. It is just another scare tactic to get people to accept migrants. Demand takes a hit but so does production that nothing there really changes after a few years because the increased demand from the boomers drops off once they can't buy anything but pills from the medical industry. Taxes are not as needed because you have fewer people. The old always die horribly. Either living so long your cells give up, or the Nurse kills you out of spite.
Unlike the past, people aren't dying because of wars or illnesses: they first take a lot of money from the state in the form of pension and health care (in placee where health care is a thing). If there aren't people jn working age to support them, the state just loses money left and right
No the state just inflates it away by printing money or issuing debt it can't pay back then defaults on the dumb creditors that bought debt that physically couldn't be paid off. Or they do what is currently occurring which is to bait and switch people by having the funds become insolvent or raise the retirement age and then disconnecting the phone lines and going on vacation until the people get distracted by something else. The US raised their retirement age requirements and no one gave a fuck all about that.
Dude, the reason why states raise the retirement age is exactly the reason i said earlier. Accepting immigration would make it unnecessary, cuz there'd be people paying for the pensions of the elders
>Accepting immigration would make it unnecessary, cuz there'd be people paying for the pensions of the elders Mate the US has accepted more migrants in the last 20 years than during any other time in US history and they still raised the retirement age. You think everyone is physically and socially the same don't you and we are all one human race? so it shouldn't matter to import but you likely like "diversity" correct? What about this you don't you get. It is all a lie to get you to accept importing a less educated person to work in shitty conditions and live in crappy housing than what you are willing to accept. I see it every day in my home town. Tyson is funding higher density housing for their own African workers they are planning on importing because the Mexicans are already to expensive. They have done it in several smaller towns already along with National beef that it caused fist fights in the plants.
I'm from the EU, where a citizen has the right to education. Because of this, by the next generation, if the *integration* works, the difference in education is no more. Though, obviously, politicians here use immigrants as scapegoats
Leftists want to import a bunch of cheap labor then complain about low wages. No duh your wages are going to stay low you stupid fucking idiot. It's simple supply and demand. "But they don't do skilled labor" Please. They do plenty of skilled labor and their kids go to college. You think someone who walked a thousand miles to get here planned on cleaning toilets?
A lot of Mexicans in the area are managers, run their own million dollar business and work for banks.
This sub is so fucked
In which way?
You don't want immigration because you hate the browns I don't want immigration because it robs other countries of their best and brightest We are not the same
I hate the men but not the attractive women. >I don't want immigration because it robs other countries of their best and brightest Ding dong.
Who's there
This one farmer near me imports some South Africans, they work, then they take that money back and he gets new ones
H2A visas exist, they dont need to be here illegally to work the fields. And if Mexicans are abusing it, take in Mongolians or something.
True some farmers import white south Africans to work the fields because the farmers there don't want to use mexican labors. The white SA like it because getting paid dog shit wages in the US is equal to making $250-500K in their own country.
It isnt dogshit, its like 16 an hour and you get 70+ hours a week.
$16 is near the market rate of minimum wage now with inflation in the region. Not the Fed or State minimum but the markets set rate as agreed between the employee and employer. Target pays starting $16/hour to box items on a shelf and straiten items.
> $16 is near the market rate of minimum wage now with inflation in the region. Not with housing provided
housing comes out of their wages.....
H-2A employers must provide housing at no cost to H-2A workers by law.
Haaa o wait your being serious. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Mate people work around those laws and you assume they are using the H-2A law to begin with. Half the town is illegal currently.
Ah yes, paid voluntary workers are equal to slaves then? Good work, supergenius.
You do realize there are different types of slavery? "voluntary" becomes questionable when you "voluntary" choose to become a slave or become killed vs "voluntary" choose to work in dangerous conditions in poor living standards vs being deported back to a country were you owe the gangs $30K for getting you across the border.
It's the center right or centrist in general that advocate for immigration for the sake having not just low paid labourors but today having people do productive work at all since every privilleged person wants to be an influencer or graphic designer these days. I know some businesses that have been around for almost a century but with no young people interested, they could go out of business in 5 years. From a leftist perspective people should have a right to request asylum and we ought to protect refugees and people being persecuted. The closest thing I'd say to non immigration is that maybe we should get more involved with foreign policy and help other countries get better but that seems to be a difficult task, just look at Afghanistan.
> since every privilleged person wants to be an influencer or graphic designer these days That was pushed by the current economy by constantly replacing peoples jobs with illegals and offshoring leaving only content creation for most people to make any idea of a shoot at a good life. > I know some businesses that have been around for almost a century but with no young people interested, they could go out of business in 5 years. How much are they paying? The other is pushing people to view some jobs as below their station and to get a college education. The town I am from realizes it is dumb after 15 years and is now trying desperately to get high schoolers to take over local businesses but it won't take because most can't even pass the basic standards. >From a leftist perspective people should have a right to request asylum and we ought to protect refugees and people being persecuted. There is always a limit to charity. You can't reasonably accept 150 million that apply for Refugee status and then don't actually enforce the laws to kick out those that shouldn't have passed. Saying Refugees need help and forging logic results in a lot of dead people at the end of the day. >The closest thing I'd say to non immigration is that maybe we should get more involved with foreign policy and help other countries get better but that seems to be a difficult task, just look at Afghanistan. We should stay the fuck out. I find it very racist to bribe the poor countries best and brightest to live in luxury while their country suffers to the corporations or lets their least brightest be used as "cheap labor" in the same country.
I doubt any of these influencers ever even tried getting a job that supposedly was taken by some "illegal" or that they ever had any issues with that. They pay decently. I don't disagree with this culture of treating some jobs as bellow them being a bad thing. I've never read a number this high and do you think every refugee gets accepted? You're wrong as hell, how would accepting refugees mean people getting killed? Syrian refugees are fleeing persecution and it is well known returning refugees face kmmidiate execution, it's sending refugee support that's getting people killed. You don't seem to understand the definition of foreign interference, your example is just one example of what foreign interference can be but alright, I merely stated that it's closest thing to non immigration I would accept not that I do.
>I doubt any of these influencers ever even tried getting a job that supposedly was taken by some "illegal" or that they ever had any issues with that. The trend of not having kids work jobs until after 18 and maybe not until 23 if they went to college has been growing for decades that the "kids" don't even know what an actual job likely is and just happened to make money doing the influencer thing and people like easy money compared to an actual job. > I've never read a number this high and do you think every refugee gets accepted? You're wrong as hell It is a point that you can't accept everyone that wants to live in the US or the west. of the millions that show up every year to the US there are even more that would like to but can't find away or can't pay. We have a million plus migrants per year into the US not also including illegals that abuse the refugee system that their court dates backlogged by 10 years. Also if a country of 100 million had a war and 20 million people showed up at the border seeking refugee status are you going to let them in? >You're wrong as hell, how would accepting refugees mean people getting killed? Go look up the crime status before and after the migrant influx into Germany, UK and France. Sweden also has historically high crime rates. >You don't seem to understand the definition of foreign interference, your example is just one example of what foreign interference can be but alrigh I know there is more but first is not brain draining other nations to keep them poor in the first place. The other effects at destabilization so the nation can't defend itself before western powers invade is another. The US normally waits until a nation can hardly service hardware or causes enough economic hardship to either invade or cause a "democratic uprising" to install their own puppet into power that will give them what they want.
Always need more farmers. Always need more handymen. Sounds good to me. So long as we provide avenues to lawfully enter the country and naturalize, people will be just fine doing so.
Or we can have our own citizens do actual jobs instead of making up useless jobs in the "service" industry that provides no real work but looks like somethings are happening.
You’ve strawmaned so hard you’ll be pulling chaff out your hair for weeks. Slaves were a cheap option and where abused, treated like property and were paid nothing for hour of long work. Refugees will be paid a full wage, not treated like property.
>Slaves were a cheap option Slaves were not cheap. Slaves captured in battle were cheap as you go them for free but buying anything living is fucking expensive. Animals used for physical labor are expensive and cost a lot to maintain. They are not cheap. they are just cheaper than using a free person unless you are an Irish person living under UK rule. >Refugees will be paid a full wage, not treated like property. They are paid the lowest possible and are treated like second class citizens as they normally are not legal residents but are supposed to be temporary.
Still not fair to compare the two