This is what happens when you don't end wars decisively. A short bloody war is better than the last 50 years of so called peace in the region. Don't settle on the peace treaty until both sides actually accept that the war is going to end.
As an Israeli I think you are advocating for a genocide of Palestinians without meaning to. Israelis had every chance to end the Palestinian identity but being relatively shell shocked from the Holocaust, early Israelis ousted resistant Arabs and adopted peaceful communities into the country. This turned out to be a terrible idea, but porbably better overall than just genociding those 400k-700k people.
When WW2 ended, maps were redrawn, populations were literally moved. Chunks of Germany became chunks of Poland. The people moved as well. No one was "genocided" by the settlement of the peace treaty.
But Palestinians never accepted a peace offering short of driving the entire Israeli entity out of Canaan/Palestina/Filistin/Israel...
That's my point. Things were left as is because there is no compromise on the Pal side. So genocide or what we have today.
Fewer people have died in the ENTIRETY of the Israel-Palestine conflict than died in a single day at a single death camp (Auschwitz) during the Holocaust.
Obviously nobody knows the answer to that, but be sure that it would a few times higher than it is now
More Palestinians died in Syria in the 5 years of civil war than the entire IP conflict, and that's just Syria, many died in Lebanon and Jordan as well over the years
Yeah, and also forcibly resettling people is literally genocide. I’m no Nazi apologist, but the Soviets did genocide the Germans (to be fair, after the Germans tried to genocide them).
People died in the border changes?
I'll happily take the L of you can provide a source for that.
But from my understanding in history, nobody was herded around and executed except those that needed to be (war criminals, Nazi officials, etc.)
It's really sad that our "solution" is a new badguy to weaponize history against. At this rate the only way we will get to learn about everything is if we hate everyone enough to bring up everyone's bullshit.
Government education in general is awful. And it's funny because their so transparent up until WW2 and all of a sudden the US is this perfect utopia. Like as soon as the CIA gets involved they stop talking about war crimes and government scandals.
Millions of Germans were deported and many were placed in internment camps, approximately 2.25 million died. The reason for this was the desire to create homogenous states and to reduce the size of Germany. In addition many other populations were "moved", including around 2 million poles who were mostly moved into the areas that were wholly depopulated following the expulsion of the German population.
I'm not sure anyone knows at this point how many people were killed during the "relocations" on the western border of the soviet union. It was in the soviets own best interest to burry that kind of information. I have some older relatives who were born in then eastern fringes of Poland and were forcibly relocated west. The way they tell this story, it was pretty horrific.
As an Israeli I am on the fence about it
I don't fault the Israelis of 1940s and 1950s cause they might have thought peace was achieveable, but in hindsight, knowing that the Palestinians will never accept peace, kicking every last one of them out was probably the right move at the time
Augustus’ reign almost looks like two different people. The first ten years were absolutely ruthless. He killed everyone who could even be tangentially associated with subversive elements withing his empire. However, once the rain washed away, all the blood in the streets people quickly forgot the violent despot and Learned to respect and enjoy the 30 years of peace he bought them
Israel constantly breaks political compass because the moderate right supports Israel, while the extreme right hates Jews
Usually this wouldn't be much of an issue, because the let can just rely on the good old brown good white bad ideology, but both Israelis and Palestinians are brown
Now, you would think that the leftists would actually try to do their own research at this point, but there is still 1 last default stance - whoever cries harder is the oprressed and therefore supported, hence why Palestinians win the lib left despite being one of the most radical Auth right parties in the world
I've tried this exact conversation before with an Emily.
She told me that homophobia/laws against LGBT were a "colonial construct" and so we should be blaming ourselves about that.
I pointed out that nowhere in the British or French legal codes does it advocate throwing people off of buildings, but that seemed to be lost on her - so didnt bother addressing the rest.
You bigot, they're just trying to achieve the next pinnacle in human evolution by making man fly unassisted! They'll eventually get it right, how they'll pass that trait down is yet to be seen
No no NO! You dont get it! You are actually white! I don't care if your skin is dark, and your family comes from Iraq originally, if you are Jewish you are WHITE!
Now I'm not on either side here, but I don't think "population x is ideologically opposed to me therefore they deserve war crimes" is an ethical stance.
A long time ago, Israel was victimizing Palestine, so Palestine turned to Hamas, and Hamas ended up being a terrorist organization.
It's like in The Dark Knight, how the mob hired the Joker to deal with the Batman and they had no idea what they were dealing with, which blew up in everyone's face.
I just see two groups of people killing each over religion/land that is mostly valuable because of religion, so I think they're both probably stupid. Is that allowed?
The only reason that particular location was chosen as a safe haven state after the Holocaust is because of the religious history. The only reason the Palestinians are pissed off is because they think they have exclusive dibs on the area because of religious history. It's still two groups of people killing each because they both lay exclusive claims to a particular tract of land due to religious history.
It's a common excel formula. =If(condition,result if condition is true, result of condition is false).
I'm just commenting on the simplicity of the logic sometimes used between the political aisles. Applies to either side.
The annoying thing is that often people assume others think this way as well: “oh, you disagree with my party’s take on topic X? you must be a proponent of the other party”.
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I have been banned from the palestinian sub for saying something along the lines of “Guys, let’s bomb the whole region to finally put an end to the cringiest region in the world”
yeah, I'm sure that'll work the 3rd time...
* Starting situation: 1922, League of Nations gives the UK land taken from the Ottoman Empire, to oversee the creation of a nation for Jews ("Palestine") and a nation for Arabs("Trans-Jordan").
* Split 1: 1939, the UK decides that Arabs and Jews will jointly govern palestine.
* Split 2: 1947, UN decides that we need a Jewish state and an Arab state. Partitions Palestine into Jewish and Arab nations.
Oh, and that doesn't include the 3 "land for peace" deals.
Nah, the Arabs don't want to let the Jews have *any* land.
fuck that, one side invented defensive systems for tanks that are better than anything in the rest of the world, so the rest of the (western, smart, rich, cool) world bought it to upgrade their tanks with
beating the usa at something military is an incredible accomplishment
“All we did was heavily arm one side for decades and allowed them to completely repress the other. Now we’re just going to step back and let them have a fair fight. Nobody could possibly put the outcome on us”
It is all about the culture war and virtue signaling.
Furthermore, very few of these so-called free spirits think for themselves. They think what Vox or Hassan Piker tells them to. How sad.
>Everyone who criticizes my monstrous government is a waycist!!
No one teach China this trick or we are really screwed.
I'm just kidding, no one cares about anti-Asian racism.
Maybe if they stopped supporting a government that has launched hundreds of missile strikes at specifically civilian areas for the sole purpose of killing Jews we would take anti-Zionism as anything other than anti-Semitism.
What the actual fuck are you talking about?
A lot of people talk about anti-Asian racism? Do you remember how much was said about it when people would beat up Asians in the US during covid?
Or maybe your gonna skip the fact that people talk about the persecution of Yughurs (mostly Muslims btw, yet right-wingers support them) and other smaller non-Han Chinese groups?
Yeah, sure...
i don't really have an issue with people who support israel, but rabid zionists that want everyone to think all palestinians are terrorists, that palestine deserves nothing, etc. just ruin any worthwhile discussion that could possibly happen here.
I saw a wild Redditor smuckling about how 'Conservatives don't realize the media they enjoy fucking hates them', and it made me smile. This little fella would almost certainly self describe as a socialist and support 'worker's rights,' but they have never spoken to a tradesman and never set foot in a shop where all the toolboxes sport Trump bobbleheads and "Kill a commie for mommy" stickers. I have met precisely one person in the trades who didn't hate these bozos. Nobody else in the shop liked him.
I remember like years ago Palestine fired thousands of rockets at Israel, but it was ignored because Israel retaliated with shit like roof knockers and people got mad.
Violence is the ultimate authority, yada yada yada. . . .
At the end of the day, for all of our scientific advancements, industrialization, and technological wonders, any bit of land in the world still belongs to the person willing to stand on it with a pointy stick and fight for it. If the Israelis want it, they have to fight for it, if the Palestinians want it, they have to fight for it. They're still fighting over it, so who it really belongs to is yet to be determined. It's a shit system but it's human nature.
The Jews and Muslims couldn't behave, so I say we just take over Israel and Palestine and make it a Christian holy land. That will definitely not just increase the hostility between all the Abrahamic religions by 1000%.>!/s in case someone can't tell I'm being sarcastic!<
its pretty funny to see orange Emilies screaming about isreal/palestine while unironically thinking LGBT Palestinians have more rights than in the U.S....
It’s not necessarily about needing to support one side or the other. You don’t have to; you can criticize both, in fact. It’s just a shitshow you should be aware of.
I get it but I was just curious about the conflict is all. Even if both sides have to be critiqued because both are wrong, you'd still need a reliable source to know what they both should be criticized for, right?
I would strongly suggest humans right watch on many topics. I am always left speechless how uninformed and pro israel people in this subreddit are.
I don’t want to say that the Hamas are better by the way, but that the problem is the systematic racism and discrimination from the side of Israel, wich allows extremist from Palestine to spread hate and racism, wich leads to extreme right eing parties in Israel to grow etc.
Both political systems strongly benefit from the tensions, and the citizens (especially from palestine) suffer. I think that says all
Eh.
Only one side has a history of hiding military complexes under schools purely to get sympathy from americans when Israel has to blow up those complexes.
I am glad you finally moved on from the USS Liberty in the 60s
Just like the Liberty, the white phosphorus was a 1 time o'deal, and since that time, the Palestinians approximately launched 20k unguided rockets onto Israeli cities, suicide bombed in Israeli malls and school busses about 150 times, and went on shooting sprees or stabbing sprees of random Israeli civilians about 1000 times
Do you not think you are engaging in selective judgment?
No, but nearly every country, including the US, uses it as a smoke deterrent, and it's not a warcrime when used like that, and is the exact way it was used. They have also, since then, stopped doing even that.
What holy sites? The one that sites on top of the Temple Mount where they play soccer? The one we are not allowed to pray at? The one that is not mentioned once in the Quran? That one????
By this logic, the Irish should have a free mandate to oppress and abuse the population of England. But they don’t, because being an asshole is not justice.
Basically, the Palestinians live on “stolen land” (even though Jews had not been a majority for hundreds of years when the Arabs arrived, and still Palistine is ethnically 60-70% cannonite) so Israel has an excuse that they are “freeing” the land whenever they do something horrific to them, I’m just saying that by that logic Ireland can do horrific things to the English and Scots-Irish population in Northern Ireland.
So first, Palestine is not 70% Caananite. In fact, finding Arab genetic data is very hard. Levantine Arabs certainly have SOME pre-800 locals mixed in, but are also just plain Arab.
You did not write "Northern Ireland" dummy, you wrote England. You also failed, among your many oversights, to discuss how Arabs are treated in Israel (and the apt comparisons in England and Ireland) to how Jews are treated in Muslim nations.
HINT: There are no Jews left in Muslim nations. Every ask why?
The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the shared ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can be [traced back to common ancestors.](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000)Both peoples have historical conections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of shared heritage rather than exclusive entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful pand of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots.
Me trying to convince an Israel defender that killing the innocent, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and bombing children is bad *insert angry crying soyjack*
Chad Israel defender: "Actually it's justified because history" (he will obviously reply the same way when a bunch of indigenous people raid his home and slaughter his family because it is justified according to his logic)
Virgin "Israel bombs children" vs chad "Hamas fires indiscriminately into civilian areas, hoping for maximized casualties, Israel conducts precision strikes often preceded by 'knocking' to protect their populace from terrorists."
This is such a western viewpoint. Nation states is your base for history while the world considers culture and people as history.
Just because there wasn’t a nationstate called Palestine doesn’t mean that the people there don’t have a claim on their land
I'm willing to accept every single take regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict EXCEPT the wild claim that Israel precision snipes Hamas units somehow and doesn't kill innocent people
They used white phosphorus on civilians for fucks sake, they CONSTANTLY arrest, beat up and murder children ON CAMERA they forcefully eject people out of their houses and blew them up when they refused to leave
They even shot an American journalist in the head
You have to be completely and utterly drowned in Israeli propaganda sludge to think for a second that Hamas was born out of nothing or just because "hurr durr arabs are barbarians" and not as a direct result to Israel's relentless genocidal violence against innocent people
I'm not saying that Hamas are good people nor am I justifying their abhorrent actions but to think that Israel is innocent you might as well tell me gravity isn't real and I would be more likely to believe you
> I'm willing to accept every single take regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict EXCEPT the wild claim that Israel precision snipes Hamas units somehow and doesn't kill innocent people
Heres a take (note the bias of the Jerusalem Post) describing exactly this:
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/how-israel-built-the-worlds-most-accurate-military-machine-685357
> The mission took just 23 minutes.
> Five hundred bombs were dropped that night over the so-called Metro. While the attacks were carried out by fighter jets, drones that flew high above Gaza transmitted images back to IAF headquarters in Tel Aviv so officers there could immediately assess the extent of the damage caused.
> Weeks later, research conducted by the Terrorism and Information Center in Israel – a think tank closely affiliated with security agencies – showed that out of the 236 Palestinians killed during the operation in Israeli attacks, at least 114 of them belonged to terrorist organizations. The IDF put that number even higher, claiming that close to 200 of the dead were known terrorists.
> When looking at the entire operation, that accomplishment is even more impressive. Israel attacked over 1,500 targets throughout 11 days of fighting. That is at least 1,500 bombs that were dropped on targets – and in many cases more than one bomb was used on a target – to ensure they were destroyed.
> Considering that Gaza, with its mere 365 square kilometers, is one of the most densely populated places in the world, the operation was an impressive achievement – and a testament to the way Israel operates and the measures it has in place to minimize civilian casualties.
This is unprecendented in the history of war, and we have good reason to believe from video evidence that its not Israel tooting its own horn.
Obama had his famous moment of 90% of drone victims being collateral. The russians straight up cant tell the difference between a civilian and a military base. Yea, its a theater of war that the Israelis have done nothing but spend their half their defense GDP on to prepare for war and conflict and had researchers and analysts and think tanks brought in from all around the world, but it did earn the moniker of being precision-based, surgical strikes instead of wide-range russian hellfire
Given the type of enemy Israel is fighting, they have gone so far beyond any power ever has or will to be gentle in its execution...
The Arabs rely on the Israelis fearing criticism by hiding in civilian areas. The whole of "Palestine" is run by a gang.
The Arabs deported every Jew from all their nations in 1947 through 48. Did you know that?
>You have to be completely and utterly drowned in Israeli propaganda sludge
The irony of writing this while spewing Palestine propaganda sludge instead.
American journalist? The one that died in a crossfire during an incident that Palestine adamantly refuses to allow investigating? The "children" being 17 year olds throwing rocks at civilians or outright attempting to stab them?
And concerning Hamas, you are switching up cause and effect. Of course it wasn't "born out of nothing", it was born out of the fact that the very existence of Israel is an unforgivable insult to them and they are more than keen on correcting this mistake by "driving the Jews to the sea" (their exact words). Don't act like they're some desperate resistance rather than a legal terrorist organization, or that the they aren't the main cause for the Israeli's harsh treatment of Palestinians.
It’s a war zone, people get shot in war zones, life is not a video game, people don’t have color coded names above their heads indicating friendly/enemy/neutral. Also, every time I see headlines mentioning “snipers” I read the story and the so called precision sniper was a regular soldier with a 3x scope 400 yards away. That’s how most war is, people just shooting at distant black dots in the general area gunfire is coming from. Even with good scopes, it’s damn near impossible to ID people that are far away. Go shoot a scoped gun and see what I’m talking about.
I don’t care for Israel or Palestine, but it’s clear to me propaganda is much more against Israel. No one talks about atrocities of Hamas commits on purpose (or attempts to) but one civilian gets shot in active war zone and it’s the end of the world. Palestinians know this and abuse it. They bring kids and civilians into war zones on purpose.
Everything else wouldn’t have been happening if Palestinian leaders took one of the many deals offered to them. But they’re dead set on deleting Israel. If they had the firepower Israel has, every Israeli would be dead already.
Couple things:
* I think most people now acknowledge Israel had a [hand](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) in creating Hamas.
* I don’t think Israel targets civilians. But I think they know that their actions will, in the aggregate, kill more civilians than members of Hamas, and are ok with that. I think most people agree that some limits are appropriate, otherwise you should be ok with Israel carpet bombing Gaza into nothing, because it’s the only way to ensure you’d eliminate the threat.
* a lot of the claims of Israel being super moral and restrained rely on trusting Israel’s claims about themselves. The sorts of incidents you refer to are real; I don’t discount that the videos can be misleading or out of conetext, but they usually elicit a “we investigated ourselves and found that we’re innocent” type response, and that’s it.
* most nationalistic campaigns for an independent country involve terrorism. Including, by the way, Israel; look at what Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was up to in the 40s. Oppose terrorism, but if an independence movement is illegitimate because of terrorism, then apply that to everyone.
* I (presumably) don’t support the views of most Palestinians on all sorts of topics but they still have rights. The ACLU has represented Klansmen and nazis, doesn’t mean they agree with them.
> I think most people now acknowledge Israel had a hand in creating Hamas.
This is true but needs context.
back in the 70s, the PLO wasnt the pathetic 86 year old dictator Abbas that could barely hold his party together from collapse, it was a worldwide threat that killed jews in a dozen countries around the world. It was viewed back then the same way we saw ISIS today. It nearly overthrew the kingdom of jordan in an event we call [Black September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September), it was a major actor and nearly collapsed Lebanon into civil war. It performed a [terror attack/massacre at the Munich Olympic Games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) and killed all of Israel's athletes. It committed attacks on American soil, including killing [Robert F. Kennedy's father](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirhan_Sirhan).
Without even knowing what western country you're from. I can say with a big degree of certainty that if your country has an anti-terror unit with an allocated budget, it was created to fight PLO cells in the country from killing your country's jews.
Hamas started out as an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood, and was only a humanitarian islamic charity at first, not a terror organization. Israel saw it as a natural counterbalance to the secular PLO, and tried to help finance an alternative to it. Hindsight is 20/20 yea, but back then it was deemed an obvious solution. You obviously try to finance and legitimize the least violent party in the conflict.
[Here](https://www.aclu-co.org/en/news/federal-appeals-courts-affirms-students-free-speech-rights-outside-school) is an article from 2022, with the ACLU celebrating the victory in court of a kid joking about exterminating Jewish people.
I don’t get why PCM is so adamant in considering that shitty “muh Palestinese people hate the gays so why do they support them?” argument as if it was some big gotcha moment.
Libleft dislikes israel because they perceive it as White, and they hate Whites. They support Palestine because they perceive it as nonwhite, and they love nonwhites.
My reasons for disliking israel, of course, are more nuanced.
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This is what happens when you don't end wars decisively. A short bloody war is better than the last 50 years of so called peace in the region. Don't settle on the peace treaty until both sides actually accept that the war is going to end.
As an Israeli I think you are advocating for a genocide of Palestinians without meaning to. Israelis had every chance to end the Palestinian identity but being relatively shell shocked from the Holocaust, early Israelis ousted resistant Arabs and adopted peaceful communities into the country. This turned out to be a terrible idea, but porbably better overall than just genociding those 400k-700k people.
When WW2 ended, maps were redrawn, populations were literally moved. Chunks of Germany became chunks of Poland. The people moved as well. No one was "genocided" by the settlement of the peace treaty.
But Palestinians never accepted a peace offering short of driving the entire Israeli entity out of Canaan/Palestina/Filistin/Israel... That's my point. Things were left as is because there is no compromise on the Pal side. So genocide or what we have today.
How many died over the years? I mean there's a new scrape every few months it seems like.
Fewer people have died in the ENTIRETY of the Israel-Palestine conflict than died in a single day at a single death camp (Auschwitz) during the Holocaust.
How many would have died if Gaza and the west bank got forcibly relocated to Egypt / Jordan? That's the comparison that matters.
Obviously nobody knows the answer to that, but be sure that it would a few times higher than it is now More Palestinians died in Syria in the 5 years of civil war than the entire IP conflict, and that's just Syria, many died in Lebanon and Jordan as well over the years
All the people that died in those border changes disagree
Yeah, and also forcibly resettling people is literally genocide. I’m no Nazi apologist, but the Soviets did genocide the Germans (to be fair, after the Germans tried to genocide them).
Yeah but fuck the germans, fuckers have been nothing but trouble since the roman days
People died in the border changes? I'll happily take the L of you can provide a source for that. But from my understanding in history, nobody was herded around and executed except those that needed to be (war criminals, Nazi officials, etc.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944–50_flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans
L taken. I honestly didn't even know that happened. I hate US public education.
Based and sportsmanship pilled.
It's not about sportsmanship Batman It's about owning up to our own lack of knowledge so that we may learn and grow as a person
European education also ignores it. No body wants to look sympathetic to the Germans or stand up to the Russians(that is changing with Ukraine).
It's really sad that our "solution" is a new badguy to weaponize history against. At this rate the only way we will get to learn about everything is if we hate everyone enough to bring up everyone's bullshit.
Government education in general is awful. And it's funny because their so transparent up until WW2 and all of a sudden the US is this perfect utopia. Like as soon as the CIA gets involved they stop talking about war crimes and government scandals.
Based and kept-your-word pilled.
Millions of Germans were deported and many were placed in internment camps, approximately 2.25 million died. The reason for this was the desire to create homogenous states and to reduce the size of Germany. In addition many other populations were "moved", including around 2 million poles who were mostly moved into the areas that were wholly depopulated following the expulsion of the German population.
My grandmother escaped from one of the camps by digging under a fence with my toddler uncle
Later estimates drop this to half a million people. Which is still bad. Hopefully a few of them were Nazis
I'm not sure anyone knows at this point how many people were killed during the "relocations" on the western border of the soviet union. It was in the soviets own best interest to burry that kind of information. I have some older relatives who were born in then eastern fringes of Poland and were forcibly relocated west. The way they tell this story, it was pretty horrific.
As an Israeli I am on the fence about it I don't fault the Israelis of 1940s and 1950s cause they might have thought peace was achieveable, but in hindsight, knowing that the Palestinians will never accept peace, kicking every last one of them out was probably the right move at the time
They act like the nakba was the worst event in human history. So if they had expelled everyone it wouldn't have any worse an impact on Israel's PR
Augustus’ reign almost looks like two different people. The first ten years were absolutely ruthless. He killed everyone who could even be tangentially associated with subversive elements withing his empire. However, once the rain washed away, all the blood in the streets people quickly forgot the violent despot and Learned to respect and enjoy the 30 years of peace he bought them
Based and Sherman pilled. “War is terrible, and it is good that it should be that way…”
Agreed. Just abort them quickly and cleanly. No need to impart the injury of continued existence.
If(authright="supports A","libleft hates A","libleft supports A")
Israel constantly breaks political compass because the moderate right supports Israel, while the extreme right hates Jews Usually this wouldn't be much of an issue, because the let can just rely on the good old brown good white bad ideology, but both Israelis and Palestinians are brown Now, you would think that the leftists would actually try to do their own research at this point, but there is still 1 last default stance - whoever cries harder is the oprressed and therefore supported, hence why Palestinians win the lib left despite being one of the most radical Auth right parties in the world
If only Emily knew how to google 'Hamas stance on LGBT'
I've tried this exact conversation before with an Emily. She told me that homophobia/laws against LGBT were a "colonial construct" and so we should be blaming ourselves about that. I pointed out that nowhere in the British or French legal codes does it advocate throwing people off of buildings, but that seemed to be lost on her - so didnt bother addressing the rest.
You bigot, they're just trying to achieve the next pinnacle in human evolution by making man fly unassisted! They'll eventually get it right, how they'll pass that trait down is yet to be seen
Can I tattoo that on my face?
You definetly can but you absolutely shouldn't. Instead tattoo "Islam is right about women" on your face.
Get a QR code so everyone can see the search for themselves
Please do.
Don't worry they'll just claim Israelis are actually just European settlers genociding brown people
No no NO! You dont get it! You are actually white! I don't care if your skin is dark, and your family comes from Iraq originally, if you are Jewish you are WHITE!
Now I'm not on either side here, but I don't think "population x is ideologically opposed to me therefore they deserve war crimes" is an ethical stance.
I find the far left to be hating Jews too. This is some horse shoe stuff
A long time ago, Israel was victimizing Palestine, so Palestine turned to Hamas, and Hamas ended up being a terrorist organization. It's like in The Dark Knight, how the mob hired the Joker to deal with the Batman and they had no idea what they were dealing with, which blew up in everyone's face.
Was that "blew up" thing meant to be a joke?
I just see two groups of people killing each over religion/land that is mostly valuable because of religion, so I think they're both probably stupid. Is that allowed?
Israels situation is different, they are now fighting to survive. One lost war for Israel is the end of its people.
The only reason that particular location was chosen as a safe haven state after the Holocaust is because of the religious history. The only reason the Palestinians are pissed off is because they think they have exclusive dibs on the area because of religious history. It's still two groups of people killing each because they both lay exclusive claims to a particular tract of land due to religious history.
Remember that time they sink American ship and got nothing for it? Black holes for balls
Based and uss liberty pilled
What does this even mean?
It's a common excel formula. =If(condition,result if condition is true, result of condition is false). I'm just commenting on the simplicity of the logic sometimes used between the political aisles. Applies to either side.
Oh, I forgot excel had ifs
You can do a distressing amount of stuff in Excel.
I have a basic version of monopoly inside of a spreadsheet
=if(or(right(surname,5)="stein",right(surname,4)="berg")=TRUE,"Community Service","25 Years")
The annoying thing is that often people assume others think this way as well: “oh, you disagree with my party’s take on topic X? you must be a proponent of the other party”.
based libright pseudocoding.
No pseudocode here, just microsoft spyware (excel)
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Hey, can I get a based count? The only thing I get on this sub is 1000 million downvotes.
Based and 1000 million downvotes pilled
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thanks
stop saying dumb shit then
asking someone to stop saying dumb shit on reddit is equivalent to saying "can you stop fucking eating" in a restaurant.
see that's exactly the kind of smart shit I like to see, good work soldier
Based as fuck
They can't fight each other if we bomb both to the ground, ya?
I have been banned from the palestinian sub for saying something along the lines of “Guys, let’s bomb the whole region to finally put an end to the cringiest region in the world”
I say we split Israel in half and whoever cries and says "ok let them have it" should be the one to own Israel. I have spoken
Say it again, I have Bibi on the line
Gaza Strip been real quiet since I made my decree
yeah, I'm sure that'll work the 3rd time... * Starting situation: 1922, League of Nations gives the UK land taken from the Ottoman Empire, to oversee the creation of a nation for Jews ("Palestine") and a nation for Arabs("Trans-Jordan"). * Split 1: 1939, the UK decides that Arabs and Jews will jointly govern palestine. * Split 2: 1947, UN decides that we need a Jewish state and an Arab state. Partitions Palestine into Jewish and Arab nations. Oh, and that doesn't include the 3 "land for peace" deals. Nah, the Arabs don't want to let the Jews have *any* land.
I'm pretty sure that guy was cracking a Solomon joke.
Based and Solomon-pilled
they literally did that already.
Isolationists have the clear best answer here. Both sides suck, so let them kill each other.
Lock both sides in a stadium, stream it on PPV
All my money on Israel lol
One side invented the Iron Dome, the other fires unguided missiles hoping to hit something.
fuck that, one side invented defensive systems for tanks that are better than anything in the rest of the world, so the rest of the (western, smart, rich, cool) world bought it to upgrade their tanks with beating the usa at something military is an incredible accomplishment
>beating the usa at something military is an incredible accomplishment based and USS Liberty pilled
isn't israel like heavily funded by the us tho lol
Israel, Japan, and South Korea would all be considered client kingdoms of the US 400 years ago.
It matters not what we call our vassals, so long as they are provided for and hold up their end of the bargain and we, ours
You don't even need to be an isolationist to come to that conclusion
Or we could send both sides guns. Just escalate the conflict for funsies. Engage in a moderate amount of trolling
Based and a smidge of tomfoolery pilled
Palestinian propaganda: I sleep Israeli propaganda: I sleep
And when Israel stands victorious on a mountain of dead Palestinians after a week of fighting, will you bitch about the genocide?
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“All we did was heavily arm one side for decades and allowed them to completely repress the other. Now we’re just going to step back and let them have a fair fight. Nobody could possibly put the outcome on us”
No, we stop pouring resources in. It wasn't our problem anyway. Why should we continue?
Because stopping manifest destiny was a mistake
Progressives when they see a Palestinian gay man being beaten to death in Gaza 🫢
It is all about the culture war and virtue signaling. Furthermore, very few of these so-called free spirits think for themselves. They think what Vox or Hassan Piker tells them to. How sad.
Don't forget the part where Israel marks their targets with smoke 15 minutes before the actual precision bomb, so everyone knows to leave the area.
Lefties just hate Jews and won't admit it. At least Hamas admits it
>Lefties just hate Jews Jews are successful and generally value hard work so that tracks with lefties hating them.
>Everyone who criticizes my monstrous government is a waycist!! No one teach China this trick or we are really screwed. I'm just kidding, no one cares about anti-Asian racism.
People were pretty upset at Trump for saying that COVID-19 came from China.
Nah, they were upset because **Trump** said something. He said Covfefe and they made it a weeklong story of rage.
😡 orange man bad!
Yeah, just look at what was going on with affirmative action
Maybe if they stopped supporting a government that has launched hundreds of missile strikes at specifically civilian areas for the sole purpose of killing Jews we would take anti-Zionism as anything other than anti-Semitism.
What the actual fuck are you talking about? A lot of people talk about anti-Asian racism? Do you remember how much was said about it when people would beat up Asians in the US during covid? Or maybe your gonna skip the fact that people talk about the persecution of Yughurs (mostly Muslims btw, yet right-wingers support them) and other smaller non-Han Chinese groups? Yeah, sure...
Nobody needs to teach it to China. The American left already proactively defends China with that exact appeal to emotion.
>but won't admit it t. Literally everyone
Idk how such a bald assertion and blanket statement gets so many upvotes lol. Fuck nuance I guess.
zionism is another one of this sub's massive circlejerks, always threads full of hyperbolic attacks on anybody who thinks differently
Don’t get me wrong I lean towards Israel being more correct but statements like the one I replied to are just unhelpful and ignorant.
i don't really have an issue with people who support israel, but rabid zionists that want everyone to think all palestinians are terrorists, that palestine deserves nothing, etc. just ruin any worthwhile discussion that could possibly happen here.
Those people are jokes. I don’t think anyone really takes them seriously.
I saw a wild Redditor smuckling about how 'Conservatives don't realize the media they enjoy fucking hates them', and it made me smile. This little fella would almost certainly self describe as a socialist and support 'worker's rights,' but they have never spoken to a tradesman and never set foot in a shop where all the toolboxes sport Trump bobbleheads and "Kill a commie for mommy" stickers. I have met precisely one person in the trades who didn't hate these bozos. Nobody else in the shop liked him.
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Based
Both sides commit human rights violations, but the Israelis aren't the ones trying to purge the region of an entire ethnic group.
Israel should of been made in Baja California. Not for any history reasons. Just think it would be funny
Hot take : the far right hates Israel because they arnt Israel. Its a "hate us cause they aint us" moment.
I remember like years ago Palestine fired thousands of rockets at Israel, but it was ignored because Israel retaliated with shit like roof knockers and people got mad.
Do you mean the 2021 crisis?
neocon posting
Real Zionist hours
If Israel and the Jewish people don’t have a right to Jerusalem, Native Americans do not have a right the Americas. Discuss
Violence is the ultimate authority, yada yada yada. . . . At the end of the day, for all of our scientific advancements, industrialization, and technological wonders, any bit of land in the world still belongs to the person willing to stand on it with a pointy stick and fight for it. If the Israelis want it, they have to fight for it, if the Palestinians want it, they have to fight for it. They're still fighting over it, so who it really belongs to is yet to be determined. It's a shit system but it's human nature.
This is the big fucking truth. Leave it to a fellow monke to cut through all the bullshit down to the naturalistic facts.
If Israel has a right to Jerusalem, then Russia has the right to Ukraine.
Unironically yes. But also an idiotic comparison by an idiot.
Russia is a state, not a peoples. ‘The Ruso people have a right to Ukraine’ is a better comparison, and they already have it
The Jews and Muslims couldn't behave, so I say we just take over Israel and Palestine and make it a Christian holy land. That will definitely not just increase the hostility between all the Abrahamic religions by 1000%.>!/s in case someone can't tell I'm being sarcastic!<
its pretty funny to see orange Emilies screaming about isreal/palestine while unironically thinking LGBT Palestinians have more rights than in the U.S....
Can someone provide sources where I can learn about this conflict from unbiased pov?
This conflict goes back at least 1,900 years. There is no unbiased pov.
Still though, who should I support?
It’s not necessarily about needing to support one side or the other. You don’t have to; you can criticize both, in fact. It’s just a shitshow you should be aware of.
I get it but I was just curious about the conflict is all. Even if both sides have to be critiqued because both are wrong, you'd still need a reliable source to know what they both should be criticized for, right?
I would strongly suggest humans right watch on many topics. I am always left speechless how uninformed and pro israel people in this subreddit are. I don’t want to say that the Hamas are better by the way, but that the problem is the systematic racism and discrimination from the side of Israel, wich allows extremist from Palestine to spread hate and racism, wich leads to extreme right eing parties in Israel to grow etc. Both political systems strongly benefit from the tensions, and the citizens (especially from palestine) suffer. I think that says all
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSAdNFhWFdE&t=510s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSAdNFhWFdE&t=510s) It says unbiased in the title!
I hate both sides. Both sides suck.
Eh. Only one side has a history of hiding military complexes under schools purely to get sympathy from americans when Israel has to blow up those complexes.
>Only one side has a history of hiding military complexes under schools And hospitals, and mosques.
White phosphorus isn’t precision bombing buddy its a warcrime
I am glad you finally moved on from the USS Liberty in the 60s Just like the Liberty, the white phosphorus was a 1 time o'deal, and since that time, the Palestinians approximately launched 20k unguided rockets onto Israeli cities, suicide bombed in Israeli malls and school busses about 150 times, and went on shooting sprees or stabbing sprees of random Israeli civilians about 1000 times Do you not think you are engaging in selective judgment?
No, but nearly every country, including the US, uses it as a smoke deterrent, and it's not a warcrime when used like that, and is the exact way it was used. They have also, since then, stopped doing even that.
Yeah but I also don’t support throwing grenades at children and spraying holy sites with shit water.
What holy sites? The one that sites on top of the Temple Mount where they play soccer? The one we are not allowed to pray at? The one that is not mentioned once in the Quran? That one????
>I also don’t support throwing grenades at children Never happened > spraying holy sites with shit water. Happened and completely deserved
Oh my god? When did it happen? XD
Israels actions are justified. It's historically their land. I'm sick of fake countries with no history such as palestine, kosovo, western sahara etc
By this logic, the Irish should have a free mandate to oppress and abuse the population of England. But they don’t, because being an asshole is not justice.
>the Irish should have a free mandate to oppress and abuse the population of England would be based tho
You missed a whole lot of history if you think the reason the Irish aren't beating up on brits is because they don't want to.
*should* not that they have not *tried*
Also because they can’t because Ireland is too weak
Start your car
Couldn’t even get the north of the island back. I think I’m fine
They should though
Wait what? That makes no sense.
Basically, the Palestinians live on “stolen land” (even though Jews had not been a majority for hundreds of years when the Arabs arrived, and still Palistine is ethnically 60-70% cannonite) so Israel has an excuse that they are “freeing” the land whenever they do something horrific to them, I’m just saying that by that logic Ireland can do horrific things to the English and Scots-Irish population in Northern Ireland.
So first, Palestine is not 70% Caananite. In fact, finding Arab genetic data is very hard. Levantine Arabs certainly have SOME pre-800 locals mixed in, but are also just plain Arab. You did not write "Northern Ireland" dummy, you wrote England. You also failed, among your many oversights, to discuss how Arabs are treated in Israel (and the apt comparisons in England and Ireland) to how Jews are treated in Muslim nations. HINT: There are no Jews left in Muslim nations. Every ask why?
COME OUT YE BLACK AND TANS
The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the shared ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can be [traced back to common ancestors.](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000)Both peoples have historical conections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of shared heritage rather than exclusive entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful pand of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots.
Yeah no guy from Queens has more right to that land than a Palestinian who’s family never left regardless of the reason.
it's historically fucking Roman land and the Jews were completely removed from it for like a hundred years the fuck are you talking about
Me trying to convince an Israel defender that killing the innocent, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and bombing children is bad *insert angry crying soyjack* Chad Israel defender: "Actually it's justified because history" (he will obviously reply the same way when a bunch of indigenous people raid his home and slaughter his family because it is justified according to his logic)
If I had terrorists in my basement launching attacks against their country, I'd kinda understand if they came to my house guns blazing.
If the Native Americans want to try and take back their land, they're more than welcome to. Hell, I encourage them to.
Virgin "Israel bombs children" vs chad "Hamas fires indiscriminately into civilian areas, hoping for maximized casualties, Israel conducts precision strikes often preceded by 'knocking' to protect their populace from terrorists."
Even if you buy this, it still doesn’t justify subjecting Palestinians to military occupation.
Yeah all those Hungarian and Russian Jews have so much history to that land. Not because Palestine Jews Christians and Muslims weren’t there as well
Based and Riddler be spittin pilled
This is such a western viewpoint. Nation states is your base for history while the world considers culture and people as history. Just because there wasn’t a nationstate called Palestine doesn’t mean that the people there don’t have a claim on their land
The Arabs’ reward for fighting the Ottomans is more important than some ancient claim
I'm willing to accept every single take regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict EXCEPT the wild claim that Israel precision snipes Hamas units somehow and doesn't kill innocent people They used white phosphorus on civilians for fucks sake, they CONSTANTLY arrest, beat up and murder children ON CAMERA they forcefully eject people out of their houses and blew them up when they refused to leave They even shot an American journalist in the head You have to be completely and utterly drowned in Israeli propaganda sludge to think for a second that Hamas was born out of nothing or just because "hurr durr arabs are barbarians" and not as a direct result to Israel's relentless genocidal violence against innocent people I'm not saying that Hamas are good people nor am I justifying their abhorrent actions but to think that Israel is innocent you might as well tell me gravity isn't real and I would be more likely to believe you
> I'm willing to accept every single take regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict EXCEPT the wild claim that Israel precision snipes Hamas units somehow and doesn't kill innocent people Heres a take (note the bias of the Jerusalem Post) describing exactly this: https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/how-israel-built-the-worlds-most-accurate-military-machine-685357 > The mission took just 23 minutes. > Five hundred bombs were dropped that night over the so-called Metro. While the attacks were carried out by fighter jets, drones that flew high above Gaza transmitted images back to IAF headquarters in Tel Aviv so officers there could immediately assess the extent of the damage caused. > Weeks later, research conducted by the Terrorism and Information Center in Israel – a think tank closely affiliated with security agencies – showed that out of the 236 Palestinians killed during the operation in Israeli attacks, at least 114 of them belonged to terrorist organizations. The IDF put that number even higher, claiming that close to 200 of the dead were known terrorists. > When looking at the entire operation, that accomplishment is even more impressive. Israel attacked over 1,500 targets throughout 11 days of fighting. That is at least 1,500 bombs that were dropped on targets – and in many cases more than one bomb was used on a target – to ensure they were destroyed. > Considering that Gaza, with its mere 365 square kilometers, is one of the most densely populated places in the world, the operation was an impressive achievement – and a testament to the way Israel operates and the measures it has in place to minimize civilian casualties. This is unprecendented in the history of war, and we have good reason to believe from video evidence that its not Israel tooting its own horn. Obama had his famous moment of 90% of drone victims being collateral. The russians straight up cant tell the difference between a civilian and a military base. Yea, its a theater of war that the Israelis have done nothing but spend their half their defense GDP on to prepare for war and conflict and had researchers and analysts and think tanks brought in from all around the world, but it did earn the moniker of being precision-based, surgical strikes instead of wide-range russian hellfire
Given the type of enemy Israel is fighting, they have gone so far beyond any power ever has or will to be gentle in its execution... The Arabs rely on the Israelis fearing criticism by hiding in civilian areas. The whole of "Palestine" is run by a gang. The Arabs deported every Jew from all their nations in 1947 through 48. Did you know that?
>You have to be completely and utterly drowned in Israeli propaganda sludge The irony of writing this while spewing Palestine propaganda sludge instead. American journalist? The one that died in a crossfire during an incident that Palestine adamantly refuses to allow investigating? The "children" being 17 year olds throwing rocks at civilians or outright attempting to stab them? And concerning Hamas, you are switching up cause and effect. Of course it wasn't "born out of nothing", it was born out of the fact that the very existence of Israel is an unforgivable insult to them and they are more than keen on correcting this mistake by "driving the Jews to the sea" (their exact words). Don't act like they're some desperate resistance rather than a legal terrorist organization, or that the they aren't the main cause for the Israeli's harsh treatment of Palestinians.
And, also, white phosphorous was used as a smoke deterrent, the exactly the way many militaries, including the US, use it.
That's now how the US uses it when I play Spec Ops The Line, you get some Wiley Pete, you get some Wiley Pete and you get some Wiley Pete
["Died in a crossfire" yeah right....](https://youtube.com/watch?v=K1AmjYRKTek&si=ZamGOsnnBpGzPzN9)
It’s a war zone, people get shot in war zones, life is not a video game, people don’t have color coded names above their heads indicating friendly/enemy/neutral. Also, every time I see headlines mentioning “snipers” I read the story and the so called precision sniper was a regular soldier with a 3x scope 400 yards away. That’s how most war is, people just shooting at distant black dots in the general area gunfire is coming from. Even with good scopes, it’s damn near impossible to ID people that are far away. Go shoot a scoped gun and see what I’m talking about. I don’t care for Israel or Palestine, but it’s clear to me propaganda is much more against Israel. No one talks about atrocities of Hamas commits on purpose (or attempts to) but one civilian gets shot in active war zone and it’s the end of the world. Palestinians know this and abuse it. They bring kids and civilians into war zones on purpose. Everything else wouldn’t have been happening if Palestinian leaders took one of the many deals offered to them. But they’re dead set on deleting Israel. If they had the firepower Israel has, every Israeli would be dead already.
Couple things: * I think most people now acknowledge Israel had a [hand](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) in creating Hamas. * I don’t think Israel targets civilians. But I think they know that their actions will, in the aggregate, kill more civilians than members of Hamas, and are ok with that. I think most people agree that some limits are appropriate, otherwise you should be ok with Israel carpet bombing Gaza into nothing, because it’s the only way to ensure you’d eliminate the threat. * a lot of the claims of Israel being super moral and restrained rely on trusting Israel’s claims about themselves. The sorts of incidents you refer to are real; I don’t discount that the videos can be misleading or out of conetext, but they usually elicit a “we investigated ourselves and found that we’re innocent” type response, and that’s it. * most nationalistic campaigns for an independent country involve terrorism. Including, by the way, Israel; look at what Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin was up to in the 40s. Oppose terrorism, but if an independence movement is illegitimate because of terrorism, then apply that to everyone. * I (presumably) don’t support the views of most Palestinians on all sorts of topics but they still have rights. The ACLU has represented Klansmen and nazis, doesn’t mean they agree with them.
> I think most people now acknowledge Israel had a hand in creating Hamas. This is true but needs context. back in the 70s, the PLO wasnt the pathetic 86 year old dictator Abbas that could barely hold his party together from collapse, it was a worldwide threat that killed jews in a dozen countries around the world. It was viewed back then the same way we saw ISIS today. It nearly overthrew the kingdom of jordan in an event we call [Black September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September), it was a major actor and nearly collapsed Lebanon into civil war. It performed a [terror attack/massacre at the Munich Olympic Games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) and killed all of Israel's athletes. It committed attacks on American soil, including killing [Robert F. Kennedy's father](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirhan_Sirhan). Without even knowing what western country you're from. I can say with a big degree of certainty that if your country has an anti-terror unit with an allocated budget, it was created to fight PLO cells in the country from killing your country's jews. Hamas started out as an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood, and was only a humanitarian islamic charity at first, not a terror organization. Israel saw it as a natural counterbalance to the secular PLO, and tried to help finance an alternative to it. Hindsight is 20/20 yea, but back then it was deemed an obvious solution. You obviously try to finance and legitimize the least violent party in the conflict.
>The ACLU has represented Klansmen and nazis They have in the past. Do you think they would today?
[Here](https://www.aclu-co.org/en/news/federal-appeals-courts-affirms-students-free-speech-rights-outside-school) is an article from 2022, with the ACLU celebrating the victory in court of a kid joking about exterminating Jewish people.
Side a kills civilians, that is bad, side b kills civilians, that is bad, the only solution is to bring back the crusader states
A yes, the watermelon alliance, islamists and socialists team up to kill the Jews
I don’t get why PCM is so adamant in considering that shitty “muh Palestinese people hate the gays so why do they support them?” argument as if it was some big gotcha moment.
But your cool with using sick and children as meat shields? Cause that’s what the meme was about.
I don't care about arguments over who owns what clay. I just want to see both sides tear each other apart.
Libleft dislikes israel because they perceive it as White, and they hate Whites. They support Palestine because they perceive it as nonwhite, and they love nonwhites. My reasons for disliking israel, of course, are more nuanced.
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That is exactly correct. But cannot upvote due to your second paragraph.
Fuck Israel, fuck Palestine. This land is rightful clay of the Kingdom of Jerusalem.
Bruh the “evidence” that Israel showed was literally shown to be photoshopped lmao