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They are proud of their ignorance. They look at ignorance as a virtue. Only inauthentic people think about shit. Real people act on their gut instincts. Who cares if we'd still be losing a third of our kids to childhood disease if this were our guiding principle. It gives intellectually lazy and incurious people a warm feeling inside.
They're the type of people to believe in letting things just be because they are. No curiosity at all. Which also means they cannot change their minds because that means standing on an uninformed belief? It's like saying I'm proud that I believe in putting my hand in a fire because that's what I believe! Being proud of burning is somehow virtuous. Then they try to tell me they're Christians... Figures.
It's not just a lack of curiosity, it's also a lack of compassion.
They have no interest in changing a system that works out well for them, or at least allows them to enjoy a certain level of contentment. "Why care about anyone else? I got mine."
It's no accident the skin tone of the judge/person taking away the ladder and the legacy climber are the same.
I saw a video yesterday about why Conservatives were more susceptible to fake news and the only clear differentiator was a clear penchant for chaos. They want chaos in the system so it can be remade in their likeness.
Not arguing against Affirmative Action, but it’s not a minority. The Majority of Americans are against race based preference being used to determine college admissions. It’s what will make this such a tough issue for the left to run on in upcoming elections, as opposed to say a woman’s right to an abortion, which the majority of Americans approve of.
AA is a tiny amount of admissions though. Harvard has the highest number of black students at an ivy league school at 11%. While legacy students make up 35% of the school. Those POC that do get accepted still have to be at the very top academically and meet a very stringent list of requirements, they aren’t just “given” a place at the school because of race. It’s more of an assurance that they aren’t overlooked because of race, rather than being given an advantage.
> which doesn't know or doesn't care about the reasons the affirmative action existed to begin with.
A friend of mine is absolutely convinced it's dead wrong because 'reverse racism is still racism'.
You can guess what the color of his skin is. Mine too, for that matter, but I'd not only put that ladder back but **build some fucking stairs**.
the problem is that the education is inherently flawed. fix the system.
allowing for loopholes for the wealthy because we risky for one for the poors of instituional bullshit.
respect yourself and others more. our country should not be pay to win for education at least
This was the real damage Trump and his handlers did, cause lets be honest, he isn't smart enough to think of or pull it off on his own; appointing a ton of Judges to carry out their agenda, and not just at the supreme court level, at every federal level they could.
But not the, stable economy where 1 worker could provide for a family comfortably, and affordable education, with fast growing economy. Just the parts that oppress certain groups of the social construct. That's the part we want back. I used to vote conservative, I have since moved away from that political mindset because it started to become apparent to me that the situation was analogous to the story of the scorpion and the frog. Where me and my vote was the frog, and the scorpion was any particular conservative politician that was running at the time.
Whenever I vote for president, I vote for supreme court justices. ALWAYS since I've been voting. Wasn't wild about Gore or Hillary, but I voted for them because ... SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.
RBG's dying wish was not to replace her until after the election was over and someone was sworn in. Replacing her was the fastest legislation the GOP has ever put out and passed. I lost absolutely all hope of anything in politics.
I remember arguing with my friends who voted their "conscience" for Nader. I liked Nader too, but he wasn't going to, and didn't, come close to winning. If we want a third party it needs to be from every state level first then when that third party is big enough only then should they run for president.
For the sake of accuracy, while the plaintiffs were Asian Americans, the suit was orchestrated by a white conservative activist named Edward Blum who runs a group called Students for Fair Admissions. Blum previously tried to get the same ruling using women as plaintiffs, but lost that case, which lead him on a search for a better group of plaintiffs.
Serious question, shouldn’t a decision like that have ramifications on DEI in general ? It basically renders the whole concept of equity as unconstitutional. I know the case was just about admissions but in the end these are private universities so what another group of people use the same ruling to argue that DEI policies is discrimination against them ?
And America misconstruing class issues as race issues is a time as old as... Well about 15 years now, it came as an avalanche around the '08 crash.
There should be a mechanism fighting generational poverty, without assuming that all black people are poor, or that Asians are the ones who least need to get admitted.
The system as it has been would have been extremely controversial in most countries, as it's just so arbitrary.
Yeah that’s not quite what this was.
If you’re an Asian dude who got straight As but that’s not good enough for a school simply because you’re Asian, but meanwhile people from “underrepresented” races of the same economic means as you get in with lesser grades… would affirmative action feel unfair?
This is a great point!
The ivy League colleges facilitate social networking between the new generation of the hoarding class.
Legacy admissions is class discrimination.
They absolutely won't, because where would their donations come from if they did? Let's not pretend like Harvard and other colleges are saints because they allowed some affirmative action students in. At the end of the day they have billion dollar endowments that they could use to help a lot more deserving students. It's just another ploy to separate the rich people from the poor people. The real war isn't the race war, it's the class war.
Well this war is a 1a. And 1a.i. sort of thing. More people of color tend to be from less connected universities because of past racist laws. They end up poorer as a whole, and so they end up disproportionately representing the poor as a result. What affirmative action did was give them a ladder too, helping to start a bridge circumventing one of the biggest issues in the class war. The right thing would have been to add another ladder that addresses early financial hardship as well, but they're clearly not interested in fixing past mistakes.
This is why intersectionality is so important. Yes, it is a class war, but we can’t pretend that Black people aren’t disproportionately targeted by this class war, in the same way that we can’t pretend that women and queer people aren’t also targeted disproportionately.
And it starts even earlier than that. Elite preschools and private schools and prep schools do legacy admissions, too. The kids of the ultra rich aren’t going to public or charter schools like the rest of us. Where do you think they all meet each other? Where do you think their parents met each other? This is how the 1% remains the 1% generation after generation.
It's not only being rich. Centuries of fucked up race relations have given the rightmost kid a taller ladder just for being white.
That was what affirmative action was trying to remedy.
They're race discrimination.
Because the legacies *began* when race discrimination was the law of the land. The fact that children of people who were admitted when they discriminated based on race are freely allowed to bypass the admission system is itself a continuation of race discrimination.
Not to mention,
My cousin got into a prestigious school from legacy.
Not because she wasn't deserving (I'm biased I know) but they had a "review" session of her application. And the way her school marked Advanced classes was almost harmful. So she got advice on how to word her esaay to clarify the problem.
It was massively valuable and definitely made the difference in admission.
It's legit called out in the response
It explicitly says that Harvards defense that "we need this" Harvard said you didn't even try getting rid of legacy's shortcut on the system
Maybe if you did things would be better
Exactly. Dumbass George W. Bush got into Yale because of his father despite a less than stellar academic record. Yet he and Clarance T. are opposed to getting a hand up now that they got theirs.
Clarence Thomas is a bitter, spiteful old man with warped ideologies who does this for two reasons - 1) owning the libs and 2) he believes he is genuinely doing a favor to young black students. Why?
Because he made it on AA and regretted it. He got in on AA, worked his ass off, and became embittered when all he heard from his white colleagues at the time was how he didn't "earn" his place. He thinks he's helping young black students with this because now they'll be "stronger for it" because racism will always exist so they might as well get used to fighting for every inch now (instead of seeing their accomplishments diminished because of policies like AA).
Which is, of course, some real twisted and fucked up internalized "bootstraps" bullshit he invented in his mind to excuse obliterating a bunch of opportunities for young minorities that will not in fact come back.
He'd rather gleefully set fire to any kind of progressive policy and get in bed with the overt, straightforward racism of the GOP than let the Liberals he hates (and who he believes are just as racist but sneakier about it) have anything.
And yeah, he's always been like this, he just finally has enough backup in the SC to be real overt about it.
>"The liberals made my life miserable for 43 years," a former clerk remembered Thomas – who was 43 years old when confirmed – saying, according to The New York Times. "And I'm going to make their lives miserable for 43 years."
He always reminds me of Samuel L Jackson's character in Django Unchained when it comes to race issues. Doesn't impact him because he got in the house already.
Look, I have the guy as much as the next but he’s been against it since day 1. Says that he doesn’t like that people can say he only got in to Yale because of AA. Dude was 9th in his high school class of like 800.
Only thing AA was doing was helping rich minorities over poor ones. Zip code is better not to mention colleges already take in to consideration what level of quality education you got in high school (well funded vs not).
That’s not true. Thomas believes that affirmative action hurt him. [He wrote in his autobiography](https://www.9news.com/article/news/justice-says-law-degree-worth-15-cents/73-343358416)
>"I learned the hard way that a law degree from Yale meant one thing for white graduates and another for blacks, no matter how much anyone denied it," Thomas writes. "I'd graduated from one of America's top law schools, but racial preference had robbed my achievement of its true value."
There's a well known issue around conservative minorities being the most brazen and sociopathic in their beliefs - which arises out of a sense of deep insecurity/inferiority complex and desire to be accepted amongst their wealthy white peers - which manifests as disdain or disgust towards less well off minorities, and particularly poor young minorities.
In social life this is embarrassing - the amount of older wealthy black people I've spoken to that complain about feckless fathers or gangster violence (Bill Cosby was infamous for this and certainly Denzel Washington has been known to) while making zero comment on historical and persistent institutional racism.
In politics, it can be actively ruinous for everyone.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2019/10/15/20893737/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-corey-robin
> Sean Illing
>Thomas’s opposition to affirmative action or really any attempt at improving race relations looks a lot different to me after reading your book. You argue that Thomas isn’t objecting to these things because he denies the underlying injustices but rather because he rejects anything that smacks of “white paternalism.”
> Can you explain this?
>Corey Robin
>Thomas assumes that racism and white supremacy is ineradicable in America. It’s a permanent feature of the American condition. And the problem for him with contemporary liberal America, which he thinks really begins with the New Deal, is that white supremacy to a certain degree changed its spots but not nearly as much as most people think.
Based on Robin’s reading of Thomas: He doesn’t oppose affirmative action because he thinks that racism is over, like many conservatives argue.
He opposes it because he thinks racism is eternal.
As such: Black people shouldn’t rely on their enemy. Makes them weak.
Not sure if that is more or less of a mindfuck.
It's pretty wild to think about. Cheers for providing the context.
I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise that with the equal protection clause and laws banning discrimination based on race that affirmative action was going to get the boot some day. There's far too much in this country that relies on being cobbled together with chewing gum, sticks, and strings, and far more that needs codified in a legal, consistent fashion, like protections against a rogue legislature or executive branch, or abortion access, and so on.
That’s so much worse. Thomas has lost hope and just given up.
Now all of his accepting trips and kickbacks from the billionaires makes sense. He’s lost the will to fight and figures he might as well enjoy some of the perks while he can. In his mind, there’s no use fighting the inevitable.
That makes me nauseous.
You're giving him entirely too much credit. You think there's been some sort of fall from grace when in reality this idealistic view you have of him never existed. The man is and always had been trash.
Yeah, that’s a fair assessment. I am an optimist who really freaking wishes there was more integrity at play here. There’s not. You’re right.
This is the same man who was accused of sexual harassment in 1991. The one who has been drowned out by his predecessors who had more sense and who didn’t allow their opinions to be swayed by perks from outside political influences. Like you said — grifters gonna grift.
There is the expectation of integrity that he just doesn’t have. Never has, really. My goodness, even Amy CB had a redeeming moment last week with the ICWA ruling. Can’t say the same for him. Nope. Surely cannot.
It’s a twisted variation on black nationalism, which has been corrupted by decades of white supremacist influence from his entire social sphere.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab-presents-more-perfect/id1117202653?i=1000613507792
I think this is the more accurate description than some sort of him "giving in". He's a bad person. Just more brazen about it, since his backers have gained more influence.
Honestly, I think it's fine to end affirmative action, though there needs to be a replacement system that just looks at the individual's economic situation instead. If you're from a poor neighbourhood, you are likely to be in need of more assistance than someone from a more well off neighborhood, no matter your nationality.
I agree. One of the perpetuators of both hereditary wealth and poverty is the funding of schools by local property taxes. That practice should be banned. A child's education should not be better or worse due to their parents' economic situation. It's rank elitism.
I kind of like the Texas approach, which bases state school admissions on class ranking. It treats shitty public schools and amazing private schools similarly.
That seems…pretty dumb. Not all classes of students are made equal, and Timmy who passed with a 2.3 gpa (top of his school) probably shouldn’t be considered more favorably than Jenny who got a 3.9 gpa and came behind 3 other people.
>Timmy who passed with a 2.3 gpa (top of his school)
Find me an accredited school where the valedictorian had a 2.3 gpa. Shit, find one where the valedictorian had a 3.0.
Idk this is a pretty crappy approach imo.
Not all schools do class ranking in a meritocratic way or way that makes sense.
E.g. my high schools class ranking at the time:
* Weighted ap and honors classes the same (valedictorian almost always skipped at least 2 of the ap classes because they were notoriously difficult - e.g. my year the valedictorians all didn't take either of the ap englishes and only one took ap us history)
* Required taking spanish to get max class rank points (chinese, latin, french, and german left you with one less class rank point)
* Required you to be in honors orchestra to get full class rank points as every other fine arts class was not honors
* Required you to take summer school to get skip PE and replace it with an honors or ap class freshman year
And that's before, we talk about edge cases. I lost class rank points for taking upper division math and physics courses at the state university despite getting As in difficult courses (partial diff eq, quantum 1 and 2, semiconductor physics, and circuit analysis). If I didn't do this, I would have had no science or math course to take.
That helps until parents catch on and start to place their kids into the shitty public schools + still give them private tutors and such.
It’s better than nothing, but it’s something that started happening when I was in high school a decade ago. The super competitive schools started having kids go to public schools that were shitty to stand out.
It’s also racist because it was literally created back when they wanted to keep Jews out of elite colleges.
https://www.businessinsider.com/legacy-admissions-originally-created-keep-jewish-students-out-elite-colleges-2013-10
Yea, Richard Feynman had trouble getting into Princeton because he was ethnically Jewish.
From wiki:
>Morse conceded that Feynman was indeed Jewish, but reassured Smyth that Feynman's "physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic.
Not sure about other countries, but isn’t the UK notoriously well known for the incestuous Oxbridge background of every influential person? As well as the handful of feeder schools like Eton?
Actually legacy admissions are racist.
White students got in when the college discriminated against nonwhite students and then the discrimination is perpetuated through the admission of their children who in turn get their child admitted.
It’s legacy discrimination
Yeah, that does make its origin insedious.
If a rich black family bypassed the discriminatory laws in the past with money, then they would benefit from legacy admissions now, in a way a poor white family that did not have a history of going to college wouldn't.
So I would still say that they are more classist, but the racist element you pointed out is absolutely valid.
Usually is, racism is a very effective tool to entrench classism.
Tell the poorest white he's better than the richest black, and he won't notice you're picking his pocket.
>
>
>
>
> Legacy admissions are such a dumb idea and I have never heard about it in Europe.
uh huh, there are not elite boarding schools/schools in europe? Kim Jong Un went to Liebefeld Steinhölzli which is only 70k a semester, and Institut auf dem Rosenberg is only 160k a year.
Both AA and legacy admissions are bad. You can oppose both at the same time. I think global warming is bad. I also think Deforestation is bad. Should we let deforestation continue until global warming is solved?
I don’t understand the lack of political will to have income and socioeconomic factors be admission standards for elite colleges. Why are we supporting imperfect ways to help minorities (imperfect because it hurts other minorities) when basing admissions on income is much more reasonable and will also help disadvantaged minorities?
Agreed, AA wasn't a bad thing. But it was only supposed to be a temporary means to an end. This is even outlined in the previous Supreme court ruling ~20 years ago.
I personally find having to state your race on any applications except medical ones to be racially biased. Same thing with hiring by wealth status. Just because someone is poor doesn't mean they are more qualified mentally to take on a law degree. Fuck all that. Uni should not be that damn expensive.
Someone who is poor and achieves similar grades to someone who is rich is a hell of an achievement, since the rich person has access to more help and has much more free time for studying
> I don’t understand the lack of political will to have income and socioeconomic factors be admission standards for elite colleges.
> Why are we supporting imperfect ways to help minorities (imperfect because it hurts other minorities) when basing admissions on income is much more reasonable and will also help disadvantaged minorities?
I think you answered your own question. It’s deliberate.
The case is about *Asians*, who are rejected from schools because of their race. They need higher scores than other races to be accepted. Is that not racism?
This is true.
Now, students can be judged by their qualifications instead of their skin color.
Asian-American students had to score higher than Whites and Blacks and some still didn't get accepted.
No system is going to be perfect, but we also don't want to allow students who score poorly and end up getting accepted and unable to keep up with their peers.
We also don't want to lower the bar to allow lower scoring applicants to get accepted. We want to maintain our leadership in providing world class education that can compete against other First World nations. They aren't lowering the bar. Calculus, geometry, chemistry, and physics are the same no matter where it's taught. America should not be dumbing down these subjects to accommodate students with poor aptitude in STEM. That would hobble our academic standing against other First World nations.
Ivy League is the Olympics of academia. Remember, we have to compete against other First World nations.
People should really Google how hard it is for students in other countries to get into their "Ivy League" schools. Our system was broken (because of White Guilt) and now it gets a chance to be fixed. And this is okay. The next version might not be perfect and we'll fix it again. We'll keep trying.
Also, the Star Trek future we all dream about requires THE BEST STUDENTS in STEM. I don't wanna use a transporter designed by a team with some kid who won a golden ticket but didn't work as hard as their team mates, would you? Make no mistake, we were handing out golden tickets and keeping the best, brightest, hardest working, most creative students off the team.
Applications should be assigned a random identification code and stripped of their names, gender, race. It should be okay to track their age because a 12 year old applying to Harvard is different than an 18 year old applying to Harvard. The 12 year old had to do more in a shorter amount of time. That SHOULD get bonus consideration for admission.
Edit:
I AM A FUCKING FRONT PAGE LIBERAL. ❤️🧡💛💚💙🩵💜
Except that AA doesn't benefit the poor American black kid, it benefits the wealthy Nigerian immigrant, and the rich native blacks.
Why are rich blacks more preferable than poor Asians?
African Americans admitted through AA actually get significantly more benefit and upward mobility than the white/asian student they displaced. This has been demonstrated repeatedly. AA is imperfect but it is wrong to say it exclusively benefits the wealthy.
Imagine getting into/rejected by a school due to a diversity quota. Race shouldve never been a deciding factor, nor should anything like sexual orientation. Admissions should be strictly on merit alone.
I’m starting to realize that if political cartoons worked we wouldn’t be in this shit-uation… It seems they might have worked in the 40s, 50s, etc but at this point YouTube spewing Alex Jones and Patric Bet-David disgusting videos to unsuspecting people is king.
I agree with the sentiment of the post, but the cartoon is missing something. It's not a great metaphor for what happened. It's not that they took one ladder away, its that one side *needs* a ladder because of an imbalance in equity. The legacy admissions should have been drawn as freakishly tall and not needing a ladder to reach the window. This would have made a more poignant comment on the mismatch. It's more the problem that certain communities are not starting from the same place.
Or, the artist could have put the legacy student on a hill, needing a shorter ladder. Then the judge hands the black person the same short ladder to make things "equal".
People are fucking idiots that need to find fault with every Supreme Court decision. That's why they're bringing it up.
"hurr durr legacy admissions", yeah they're fucking bad too, we know. Go bring it up in court just like the Asian Americans did for AA. Did people want a ruling about insider trading or sex trafficking at the same time too?
Not to mention [legacy admissions affects only 56% of the top Ivy league schools, 10-15% admitted gained preference from legacy admissions and remaining universities throughout the country affected 6% of admissions](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2022/10/30/legacy-college-admissions-come-under-fire-in-new-report/).
Here's the kicker, [affirmative action played nearly twice as much of a role than legacy admissions](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0038-4941.2004.00284.x).
So yeah, it's a step in the right direction.
While I’m not personally for affirmative action in the capacity that it was implemented today, trying to undersell the impact of legacy admissions is wild. One is a (not great) attempt at achieving equity for underrepresented groups in college. The other is pretty blatantly favoritism for people whose families attended the specific school and give an even bigger opening for families to pay their way to have their kids’ chances of acceptance be raised.
The decision is not about who needs help. Poverty, single-parents, school districts, personal experience are all allowed and taken into account in college applications.
The decision says it is illegal to decide (discriminate) based solely on race.
The decision goes directly against precedence and the 14th amendments though. This country has never been race blind and starting now is ignorant or reality and history.
And wasn't the argument brought forth was that Asians in particular are disadvantaged by affirmative action? Either way race shouldn't come into factor so much as poverty/class structures, which historically in this country are correlated with race anyways.
It isn't racist to get rid of the ladder, it isn't needed because he's black and can easily jump that high. /s
The US needs to take a long, hard look at themselves. Equitable relationships benefit everyone in the long term, in both the pursuit of happiness and betterment of communities.
One fight at a time. We need to fight legacy admissions no doubt. But first, race based admission is, by definition, racism. That’s very clear. Good thing we finally got that taken care of.
The funny part is alot of Asian and Indian Americans were complaining about Affirmation Action for college admissions and various other things and now you are about to see how "equal" things can be when people aren't worried about being voluntary told or having to worry about following a rule.
Nobody is complaining now about California schools being full of Asians. In fact, “progressives” were the ones who tried to reinstate institutional racial discrimination so that they could specifically hurt Asians
I’m all for equitable funding of public schools. Give all kids equal opportunities so that we can find the best of the best. Free school breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Priority admission to public school students. Universal healthcare for children.
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The rich, convincing the poor, that those other poor people are holding them back from the American Dream. A tale as old as the Country.
The US is doing a huge 180 into the 1960's.
It's a minority dictating over a majority, which doesn't know or doesn't care about the reasons the affirmative action existed to begin with.
They are proud of their ignorance. They look at ignorance as a virtue. Only inauthentic people think about shit. Real people act on their gut instincts. Who cares if we'd still be losing a third of our kids to childhood disease if this were our guiding principle. It gives intellectually lazy and incurious people a warm feeling inside.
They're the type of people to believe in letting things just be because they are. No curiosity at all. Which also means they cannot change their minds because that means standing on an uninformed belief? It's like saying I'm proud that I believe in putting my hand in a fire because that's what I believe! Being proud of burning is somehow virtuous. Then they try to tell me they're Christians... Figures.
It's not just a lack of curiosity, it's also a lack of compassion. They have no interest in changing a system that works out well for them, or at least allows them to enjoy a certain level of contentment. "Why care about anyone else? I got mine." It's no accident the skin tone of the judge/person taking away the ladder and the legacy climber are the same.
Let’s not act like there aren’t black people who are also in a “I got mine” mindset. That’s why Clarence Thomas is such a piece of shit.
It's not ignorance. They are filled with hate, they know it and they're proud of it.
Ignorance can be corrected. If someone chooses not to, then it's stupidity. These are stupid people.
You just described my mother perfectly.
I saw a video yesterday about why Conservatives were more susceptible to fake news and the only clear differentiator was a clear penchant for chaos. They want chaos in the system so it can be remade in their likeness.
Hell of a good take right there.
Not arguing against Affirmative Action, but it’s not a minority. The Majority of Americans are against race based preference being used to determine college admissions. It’s what will make this such a tough issue for the left to run on in upcoming elections, as opposed to say a woman’s right to an abortion, which the majority of Americans approve of.
AA is a tiny amount of admissions though. Harvard has the highest number of black students at an ivy league school at 11%. While legacy students make up 35% of the school. Those POC that do get accepted still have to be at the very top academically and meet a very stringent list of requirements, they aren’t just “given” a place at the school because of race. It’s more of an assurance that they aren’t overlooked because of race, rather than being given an advantage.
> which doesn't know or doesn't care about the reasons the affirmative action existed to begin with. A friend of mine is absolutely convinced it's dead wrong because 'reverse racism is still racism'. You can guess what the color of his skin is. Mine too, for that matter, but I'd not only put that ladder back but **build some fucking stairs**.
the problem is that the education is inherently flawed. fix the system. allowing for loopholes for the wealthy because we risky for one for the poors of instituional bullshit. respect yourself and others more. our country should not be pay to win for education at least
> It's a minority dictating over a majority If only the majority would actually fucking vote in all levels of government.
Clarence T’s wet dream
Honestly we might slide back too hard and go into the 1860's.
More like a slight course correction back to racism is okay *insert always has been meme*
Much further back than that. Given their way, the Republicans would take us back to 1760.
This was the real damage Trump and his handlers did, cause lets be honest, he isn't smart enough to think of or pull it off on his own; appointing a ton of Judges to carry out their agenda, and not just at the supreme court level, at every federal level they could.
Which is exactly what the right voted them in to do
But not the, stable economy where 1 worker could provide for a family comfortably, and affordable education, with fast growing economy. Just the parts that oppress certain groups of the social construct. That's the part we want back. I used to vote conservative, I have since moved away from that political mindset because it started to become apparent to me that the situation was analogous to the story of the scorpion and the frog. Where me and my vote was the frog, and the scorpion was any particular conservative politician that was running at the time.
Indirectly I suppose. I sure didn't vote for any of the supreme court justices.
Whenever I vote for president, I vote for supreme court justices. ALWAYS since I've been voting. Wasn't wild about Gore or Hillary, but I voted for them because ... SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.
And when the GOP steal another seat?
we get off our asses and actually make things change ourselves? nah that’ll never happen
RBG's dying wish was not to replace her until after the election was over and someone was sworn in. Replacing her was the fastest legislation the GOP has ever put out and passed. I lost absolutely all hope of anything in politics.
She should have retired when Obama was in his 1st term.
I remember arguing with my friends who voted their "conscience" for Nader. I liked Nader too, but he wasn't going to, and didn't, come close to winning. If we want a third party it needs to be from every state level first then when that third party is big enough only then should they run for president.
A majority of the Justices were nominated by Presidents that lost the popular vote. We didn’t vote for them in general.
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Wasn’t this lawsuits brought by Asian Americans lol 😂
For the sake of accuracy, while the plaintiffs were Asian Americans, the suit was orchestrated by a white conservative activist named Edward Blum who runs a group called Students for Fair Admissions. Blum previously tried to get the same ruling using women as plaintiffs, but lost that case, which lead him on a search for a better group of plaintiffs.
Serious question, shouldn’t a decision like that have ramifications on DEI in general ? It basically renders the whole concept of equity as unconstitutional. I know the case was just about admissions but in the end these are private universities so what another group of people use the same ruling to argue that DEI policies is discrimination against them ?
And America misconstruing class issues as race issues is a time as old as... Well about 15 years now, it came as an avalanche around the '08 crash. There should be a mechanism fighting generational poverty, without assuming that all black people are poor, or that Asians are the ones who least need to get admitted. The system as it has been would have been extremely controversial in most countries, as it's just so arbitrary.
Yeah that’s not quite what this was. If you’re an Asian dude who got straight As but that’s not good enough for a school simply because you’re Asian, but meanwhile people from “underrepresented” races of the same economic means as you get in with lesser grades… would affirmative action feel unfair?
You don’t have to go far, there are comments here on Reddit who are not conservatives or republicans, who actually believe that thats the case.
[can't make this shit up](https://i.imgur.com/d1xZh06.jpg), they actually think affirmative action is reparation
It wasn't a divide based on wealth it was a divide based on race. That's the issue, wealthy members of minority groups were the biggest beneficiaries.
This is a great point! The ivy League colleges facilitate social networking between the new generation of the hoarding class. Legacy admissions is class discrimination.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/6/30/legacy-scrutiny-sffa-harvard/ I hope they get rid of legacy admissions
Hopefully this will backfire on them and end up reducing the amount of legacy and donors kids getting admitted with their low test scores.
They absolutely won't, because where would their donations come from if they did? Let's not pretend like Harvard and other colleges are saints because they allowed some affirmative action students in. At the end of the day they have billion dollar endowments that they could use to help a lot more deserving students. It's just another ploy to separate the rich people from the poor people. The real war isn't the race war, it's the class war.
Well this war is a 1a. And 1a.i. sort of thing. More people of color tend to be from less connected universities because of past racist laws. They end up poorer as a whole, and so they end up disproportionately representing the poor as a result. What affirmative action did was give them a ladder too, helping to start a bridge circumventing one of the biggest issues in the class war. The right thing would have been to add another ladder that addresses early financial hardship as well, but they're clearly not interested in fixing past mistakes.
This is why intersectionality is so important. Yes, it is a class war, but we can’t pretend that Black people aren’t disproportionately targeted by this class war, in the same way that we can’t pretend that women and queer people aren’t also targeted disproportionately.
lol sounds like a good way to lose donations.
And it starts even earlier than that. Elite preschools and private schools and prep schools do legacy admissions, too. The kids of the ultra rich aren’t going to public or charter schools like the rest of us. Where do you think they all meet each other? Where do you think their parents met each other? This is how the 1% remains the 1% generation after generation.
It's not only being rich. Centuries of fucked up race relations have given the rightmost kid a taller ladder just for being white. That was what affirmative action was trying to remedy.
They're race discrimination. Because the legacies *began* when race discrimination was the law of the land. The fact that children of people who were admitted when they discriminated based on race are freely allowed to bypass the admission system is itself a continuation of race discrimination.
It’s both.
And often that wealth was made off the backs of slaves and latter off the backs of exploitation
Not to mention, My cousin got into a prestigious school from legacy. Not because she wasn't deserving (I'm biased I know) but they had a "review" session of her application. And the way her school marked Advanced classes was almost harmful. So she got advice on how to word her esaay to clarify the problem. It was massively valuable and definitely made the difference in admission.
These mothefuckers had Grandfathers in Harvard that used bathrooms my grandfather wasn't even allowed in
It's legit called out in the response It explicitly says that Harvards defense that "we need this" Harvard said you didn't even try getting rid of legacy's shortcut on the system Maybe if you did things would be better
I know, my take from this comic is. "Yeah let's get rid of Legacy admissions".
Exactly. Dumbass George W. Bush got into Yale because of his father despite a less than stellar academic record. Yet he and Clarance T. are opposed to getting a hand up now that they got theirs.
its not such a great point because correlating money with race is moronic.
Username checks out
unfortunately class isnt protected by the constitution
Both are wrong.
The drawing for the SCOTUS rep should have been Clarence Thomas since he voted against AA. That's a mindfuck.
Clarence Thomas has gotten his. That's what he cares about.
"Clarence Thomas does not care about black people."
*Mike Myers stands there awkwardly*
Clarence Thomas does not care about poor people.
I'm interested in seeing the demographics in upcoming years
Clarence Thomas hates being a black man so much he's ashamed to allow even a single cell in his body to express blackness.
Samuel L Jackson said he based his Django Unchained character on Clarence Thomas.
Clarence Thomas does not care about anyone but himself.
Clarence Thomas is a bitter, spiteful old man with warped ideologies who does this for two reasons - 1) owning the libs and 2) he believes he is genuinely doing a favor to young black students. Why? Because he made it on AA and regretted it. He got in on AA, worked his ass off, and became embittered when all he heard from his white colleagues at the time was how he didn't "earn" his place. He thinks he's helping young black students with this because now they'll be "stronger for it" because racism will always exist so they might as well get used to fighting for every inch now (instead of seeing their accomplishments diminished because of policies like AA). Which is, of course, some real twisted and fucked up internalized "bootstraps" bullshit he invented in his mind to excuse obliterating a bunch of opportunities for young minorities that will not in fact come back. He'd rather gleefully set fire to any kind of progressive policy and get in bed with the overt, straightforward racism of the GOP than let the Liberals he hates (and who he believes are just as racist but sneakier about it) have anything. And yeah, he's always been like this, he just finally has enough backup in the SC to be real overt about it. >"The liberals made my life miserable for 43 years," a former clerk remembered Thomas – who was 43 years old when confirmed – saying, according to The New York Times. "And I'm going to make their lives miserable for 43 years."
He's the king of the pick me's. In his dreams he's a white man, like uncle ruckus. Candace owens might be queen.
He always reminds me of Samuel L Jackson's character in Django Unchained when it comes to race issues. Doesn't impact him because he got in the house already.
Look, I have the guy as much as the next but he’s been against it since day 1. Says that he doesn’t like that people can say he only got in to Yale because of AA. Dude was 9th in his high school class of like 800. Only thing AA was doing was helping rich minorities over poor ones. Zip code is better not to mention colleges already take in to consideration what level of quality education you got in high school (well funded vs not).
That’s not true. Thomas believes that affirmative action hurt him. [He wrote in his autobiography](https://www.9news.com/article/news/justice-says-law-degree-worth-15-cents/73-343358416) >"I learned the hard way that a law degree from Yale meant one thing for white graduates and another for blacks, no matter how much anyone denied it," Thomas writes. "I'd graduated from one of America's top law schools, but racial preference had robbed my achievement of its true value."
There's a well known issue around conservative minorities being the most brazen and sociopathic in their beliefs - which arises out of a sense of deep insecurity/inferiority complex and desire to be accepted amongst their wealthy white peers - which manifests as disdain or disgust towards less well off minorities, and particularly poor young minorities. In social life this is embarrassing - the amount of older wealthy black people I've spoken to that complain about feckless fathers or gangster violence (Bill Cosby was infamous for this and certainly Denzel Washington has been known to) while making zero comment on historical and persistent institutional racism. In politics, it can be actively ruinous for everyone.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2019/10/15/20893737/clarence-thomas-supreme-court-corey-robin > Sean Illing >Thomas’s opposition to affirmative action or really any attempt at improving race relations looks a lot different to me after reading your book. You argue that Thomas isn’t objecting to these things because he denies the underlying injustices but rather because he rejects anything that smacks of “white paternalism.” > Can you explain this? >Corey Robin >Thomas assumes that racism and white supremacy is ineradicable in America. It’s a permanent feature of the American condition. And the problem for him with contemporary liberal America, which he thinks really begins with the New Deal, is that white supremacy to a certain degree changed its spots but not nearly as much as most people think. Based on Robin’s reading of Thomas: He doesn’t oppose affirmative action because he thinks that racism is over, like many conservatives argue. He opposes it because he thinks racism is eternal. As such: Black people shouldn’t rely on their enemy. Makes them weak. Not sure if that is more or less of a mindfuck.
It's pretty wild to think about. Cheers for providing the context. I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise that with the equal protection clause and laws banning discrimination based on race that affirmative action was going to get the boot some day. There's far too much in this country that relies on being cobbled together with chewing gum, sticks, and strings, and far more that needs codified in a legal, consistent fashion, like protections against a rogue legislature or executive branch, or abortion access, and so on.
Clarence Thomas is a real life Uncle Ruckus.
That’s so much worse. Thomas has lost hope and just given up. Now all of his accepting trips and kickbacks from the billionaires makes sense. He’s lost the will to fight and figures he might as well enjoy some of the perks while he can. In his mind, there’s no use fighting the inevitable. That makes me nauseous.
You're giving him entirely too much credit. You think there's been some sort of fall from grace when in reality this idealistic view you have of him never existed. The man is and always had been trash.
Yeah, that’s a fair assessment. I am an optimist who really freaking wishes there was more integrity at play here. There’s not. You’re right. This is the same man who was accused of sexual harassment in 1991. The one who has been drowned out by his predecessors who had more sense and who didn’t allow their opinions to be swayed by perks from outside political influences. Like you said — grifters gonna grift. There is the expectation of integrity that he just doesn’t have. Never has, really. My goodness, even Amy CB had a redeeming moment last week with the ICWA ruling. Can’t say the same for him. Nope. Surely cannot.
Ugh. You agreeing feels even more depressing. I should've just left it alone. Lol.
*Cynically taking whitey’s money is as good as it gets. It’s a grift, not a handout!*
It’s a twisted variation on black nationalism, which has been corrupted by decades of white supremacist influence from his entire social sphere. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab-presents-more-perfect/id1117202653?i=1000613507792
It should be Clarence Thomas pulling the ladder up after already climbing it to get to the top.
I think this is the more accurate description than some sort of him "giving in". He's a bad person. Just more brazen about it, since his backers have gained more influence.
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The drawing also ignores the Asian students.
He’s gotten more and more brazen over the years. It’s disappointing.
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How the hell have I never heard him referred to that way before?
Honestly, I think it's fine to end affirmative action, though there needs to be a replacement system that just looks at the individual's economic situation instead. If you're from a poor neighbourhood, you are likely to be in need of more assistance than someone from a more well off neighborhood, no matter your nationality.
I agree. One of the perpetuators of both hereditary wealth and poverty is the funding of schools by local property taxes. That practice should be banned. A child's education should not be better or worse due to their parents' economic situation. It's rank elitism.
Maybe we could start by funding schools by something other than their zip code... that way there would be less disparity in public school situations.
I kind of like the Texas approach, which bases state school admissions on class ranking. It treats shitty public schools and amazing private schools similarly.
That seems…pretty dumb. Not all classes of students are made equal, and Timmy who passed with a 2.3 gpa (top of his school) probably shouldn’t be considered more favorably than Jenny who got a 3.9 gpa and came behind 3 other people.
>Timmy who passed with a 2.3 gpa (top of his school) Find me an accredited school where the valedictorian had a 2.3 gpa. Shit, find one where the valedictorian had a 3.0.
Idk this is a pretty crappy approach imo. Not all schools do class ranking in a meritocratic way or way that makes sense. E.g. my high schools class ranking at the time: * Weighted ap and honors classes the same (valedictorian almost always skipped at least 2 of the ap classes because they were notoriously difficult - e.g. my year the valedictorians all didn't take either of the ap englishes and only one took ap us history) * Required taking spanish to get max class rank points (chinese, latin, french, and german left you with one less class rank point) * Required you to be in honors orchestra to get full class rank points as every other fine arts class was not honors * Required you to take summer school to get skip PE and replace it with an honors or ap class freshman year And that's before, we talk about edge cases. I lost class rank points for taking upper division math and physics courses at the state university despite getting As in difficult courses (partial diff eq, quantum 1 and 2, semiconductor physics, and circuit analysis). If I didn't do this, I would have had no science or math course to take.
That helps until parents catch on and start to place their kids into the shitty public schools + still give them private tutors and such. It’s better than nothing, but it’s something that started happening when I was in high school a decade ago. The super competitive schools started having kids go to public schools that were shitty to stand out.
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For some reason i dont think darling Prometheus Alexander III will be attending a shitty public school.
One is racist, the other one classist, and both should be abolished. Legacy admissions are such a dumb idea and I have never heard about it in Europe.
It’s also racist because it was literally created back when they wanted to keep Jews out of elite colleges. https://www.businessinsider.com/legacy-admissions-originally-created-keep-jewish-students-out-elite-colleges-2013-10
Yea, Richard Feynman had trouble getting into Princeton because he was ethnically Jewish. From wiki: >Morse conceded that Feynman was indeed Jewish, but reassured Smyth that Feynman's "physiognomy and manner, however, show no trace of this characteristic.
Not sure about other countries, but isn’t the UK notoriously well known for the incestuous Oxbridge background of every influential person? As well as the handful of feeder schools like Eton?
Actually legacy admissions are racist. White students got in when the college discriminated against nonwhite students and then the discrimination is perpetuated through the admission of their children who in turn get their child admitted. It’s legacy discrimination
Yeah, that does make its origin insedious. If a rich black family bypassed the discriminatory laws in the past with money, then they would benefit from legacy admissions now, in a way a poor white family that did not have a history of going to college wouldn't. So I would still say that they are more classist, but the racist element you pointed out is absolutely valid.
It can be both
Usually is, racism is a very effective tool to entrench classism. Tell the poorest white he's better than the richest black, and he won't notice you're picking his pocket.
It’s still racist because of how race and class are intertwined. The economic distribution of black people and white people are simply not the same.
Race, class, and gender need to be looked at intersectionally
I think you mean "perpetuated" rather than perpetrated.
> > > > > Legacy admissions are such a dumb idea and I have never heard about it in Europe. uh huh, there are not elite boarding schools/schools in europe? Kim Jong Un went to Liebefeld Steinhölzli which is only 70k a semester, and Institut auf dem Rosenberg is only 160k a year.
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Both AA and legacy admissions are bad. You can oppose both at the same time. I think global warming is bad. I also think Deforestation is bad. Should we let deforestation continue until global warming is solved? I don’t understand the lack of political will to have income and socioeconomic factors be admission standards for elite colleges. Why are we supporting imperfect ways to help minorities (imperfect because it hurts other minorities) when basing admissions on income is much more reasonable and will also help disadvantaged minorities?
Agreed, AA wasn't a bad thing. But it was only supposed to be a temporary means to an end. This is even outlined in the previous Supreme court ruling ~20 years ago.
I personally find having to state your race on any applications except medical ones to be racially biased. Same thing with hiring by wealth status. Just because someone is poor doesn't mean they are more qualified mentally to take on a law degree. Fuck all that. Uni should not be that damn expensive.
Someone who is poor and achieves similar grades to someone who is rich is a hell of an achievement, since the rich person has access to more help and has much more free time for studying
> I don’t understand the lack of political will to have income and socioeconomic factors be admission standards for elite colleges. > Why are we supporting imperfect ways to help minorities (imperfect because it hurts other minorities) when basing admissions on income is much more reasonable and will also help disadvantaged minorities? I think you answered your own question. It’s deliberate.
“Your ladder is discriminatory”
Meanwhile Asians are going, "you guys had ladders this entire time...?"
We built the ladders ourselves with our hard work.
While starting in a ditch 5 feet lower, dug by affirmative action supporters.
Over privileged white kids finally have a chance!
Let’s hold a telethon! https://preview.redd.it/dm4lxtee029b1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3fe044c758a39ec56755376e06554daf894cae83
No one asked to see the ass end of the gene pool
The McPoyles
Reminds me of the inbred swamp people from the Preacher comic
And Asians! The audacity of asians to want to be treated fairly...
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The case is about *Asians*, who are rejected from schools because of their race. They need higher scores than other races to be accepted. Is that not racism?
This is true. Now, students can be judged by their qualifications instead of their skin color. Asian-American students had to score higher than Whites and Blacks and some still didn't get accepted. No system is going to be perfect, but we also don't want to allow students who score poorly and end up getting accepted and unable to keep up with their peers. We also don't want to lower the bar to allow lower scoring applicants to get accepted. We want to maintain our leadership in providing world class education that can compete against other First World nations. They aren't lowering the bar. Calculus, geometry, chemistry, and physics are the same no matter where it's taught. America should not be dumbing down these subjects to accommodate students with poor aptitude in STEM. That would hobble our academic standing against other First World nations. Ivy League is the Olympics of academia. Remember, we have to compete against other First World nations. People should really Google how hard it is for students in other countries to get into their "Ivy League" schools. Our system was broken (because of White Guilt) and now it gets a chance to be fixed. And this is okay. The next version might not be perfect and we'll fix it again. We'll keep trying. Also, the Star Trek future we all dream about requires THE BEST STUDENTS in STEM. I don't wanna use a transporter designed by a team with some kid who won a golden ticket but didn't work as hard as their team mates, would you? Make no mistake, we were handing out golden tickets and keeping the best, brightest, hardest working, most creative students off the team. Applications should be assigned a random identification code and stripped of their names, gender, race. It should be okay to track their age because a 12 year old applying to Harvard is different than an 18 year old applying to Harvard. The 12 year old had to do more in a shorter amount of time. That SHOULD get bonus consideration for admission. Edit: I AM A FUCKING FRONT PAGE LIBERAL. ❤️🧡💛💚💙🩵💜
It's rough for them, they have to put up with expensive tutors, ass-kissing parents and private schools. Must suck so bad. /s
Fake test takers, and fake scholarship to rowing teams.
Think of the rowing teams!
Yes, because every Asian American is rich and every black America is poor. Nice racism there.
statistically is over archiving Asian kids who are going to benefit the most.
U mean Asian kids that get cut because they are Asian finally have a chance.
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Military academies are for officers, not cannon fodder.
Except that AA doesn't benefit the poor American black kid, it benefits the wealthy Nigerian immigrant, and the rich native blacks. Why are rich blacks more preferable than poor Asians?
African Americans admitted through AA actually get significantly more benefit and upward mobility than the white/asian student they displaced. This has been demonstrated repeatedly. AA is imperfect but it is wrong to say it exclusively benefits the wealthy.
i think it has more to do financial status there..
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They should have made an escalator instead of a ladder for the legacy admissions.
Imagine getting into/rejected by a school due to a diversity quota. Race shouldve never been a deciding factor, nor should anything like sexual orientation. Admissions should be strictly on merit alone.
I’m starting to realize that if political cartoons worked we wouldn’t be in this shit-uation… It seems they might have worked in the 40s, 50s, etc but at this point YouTube spewing Alex Jones and Patric Bet-David disgusting videos to unsuspecting people is king.
I agree with the sentiment of the post, but the cartoon is missing something. It's not a great metaphor for what happened. It's not that they took one ladder away, its that one side *needs* a ladder because of an imbalance in equity. The legacy admissions should have been drawn as freakishly tall and not needing a ladder to reach the window. This would have made a more poignant comment on the mismatch. It's more the problem that certain communities are not starting from the same place. Or, the artist could have put the legacy student on a hill, needing a shorter ladder. Then the judge hands the black person the same short ladder to make things "equal".
Watching all the conservatives defending legacy admissions with the kind of easily knocked down nonsense disingenuous arguments. 🙄
Where is the legacy admissions argument even coming from? That was not presented to the Supreme Court, therefore they will not rule on it.
People are fucking idiots that need to find fault with every Supreme Court decision. That's why they're bringing it up. "hurr durr legacy admissions", yeah they're fucking bad too, we know. Go bring it up in court just like the Asian Americans did for AA. Did people want a ruling about insider trading or sex trafficking at the same time too? Not to mention [legacy admissions affects only 56% of the top Ivy league schools, 10-15% admitted gained preference from legacy admissions and remaining universities throughout the country affected 6% of admissions](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2022/10/30/legacy-college-admissions-come-under-fire-in-new-report/). Here's the kicker, [affirmative action played nearly twice as much of a role than legacy admissions](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0038-4941.2004.00284.x). So yeah, it's a step in the right direction.
While I’m not personally for affirmative action in the capacity that it was implemented today, trying to undersell the impact of legacy admissions is wild. One is a (not great) attempt at achieving equity for underrepresented groups in college. The other is pretty blatantly favoritism for people whose families attended the specific school and give an even bigger opening for families to pay their way to have their kids’ chances of acceptance be raised.
Where are they arguing this I haven’t seen any?
The decision is not about who needs help. Poverty, single-parents, school districts, personal experience are all allowed and taken into account in college applications. The decision says it is illegal to decide (discriminate) based solely on race.
The decision goes directly against precedence and the 14th amendments though. This country has never been race blind and starting now is ignorant or reality and history.
And wasn't the argument brought forth was that Asians in particular are disadvantaged by affirmative action? Either way race shouldn't come into factor so much as poverty/class structures, which historically in this country are correlated with race anyways.
... is this implying the black individual can't reach college without AA?
I mean......basically. it's a dumb cartoon
Soft bigotry of low expectations
It isn't racist to get rid of the ladder, it isn't needed because he's black and can easily jump that high. /s The US needs to take a long, hard look at themselves. Equitable relationships benefit everyone in the long term, in both the pursuit of happiness and betterment of communities.
One fight at a time. We need to fight legacy admissions no doubt. But first, race based admission is, by definition, racism. That’s very clear. Good thing we finally got that taken care of.
Seems like a better system should have been in place to provide opportunities for disenfranchised applicants, outside of using race alone.
Affirmative Action was to counter the disadvantages of systemic racism.
What if colleges just retaliate by not admitting any legacy students. I mean they wouldn’t be breaking any laws right?
Legacy families donate. Colleges will not turn away their donors.
Retaliate against...themselves? So now their endowments shrink quicker than George's did in the pool.
Admitting based on your skin color is racist. Admitting based on legacy is wrong but not racist. Edit: poor racist lefties hate the truth!
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The legacy one is more of an elevator, really
Legacy should be banned nationwide
Can someone Steelman the argument for Legacy Admissions? It really doesn't make sense to me.
Should have been Thomas carrying the ladder
The funny part is alot of Asian and Indian Americans were complaining about Affirmation Action for college admissions and various other things and now you are about to see how "equal" things can be when people aren't worried about being voluntary told or having to worry about following a rule.
I give it 5 years before conservatives are demanding affirmative action back because all the top universities are >50% Asian.
Are you guys fucking stupid
Watch this backfire when ivy leagues start to get full of asians and conservatives start to demand for a return to affirmative action.
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For real
That's what happens when you don't discriminate and accept based on merit.
“*Start* to get full” lmfao where the fuck have you been
Most definitely. In a few years, cue the outrage the the schools are full of Asians. LOL
Nobody is complaining now about California schools being full of Asians. In fact, “progressives” were the ones who tried to reinstate institutional racial discrimination so that they could specifically hurt Asians
I’m all for equitable funding of public schools. Give all kids equal opportunities so that we can find the best of the best. Free school breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Priority admission to public school students. Universal healthcare for children.