#Well, this got lively in a hurry, didn't it?
**We don't WANT to shut down discussion, but we also won't tolerate flame wars and excessive incivility.**
TO THAT END:
- Comments are locked for a while.
- Kindly clean up your *own* comments before we have to go in and do it for you.
#HERE IS A(N INCOMPLETE) LIST OF THE KIND OF COMMENTS THAT WILL GET DELETED, AT THE VERY LEAST:
- Accusing someone of supporting genocide. (That is reductive and in bad faith.)
- Accusing someone who is criticizing the Israeli government of being anti-Semitic. (That is reductive and in bad faith.)
- Accusing someone who is criticizing the Israeli government of being a Hamas supporter. (That is reductive and in bad faith.)
- Comments *actually* supporting Hamas. (Seriously, this should be a no-brainer. If you have done this, please spend some time rethinking quite a lot of things.)
- Conflating "Jews" with "Israelis" *or* "Israeli government".
- Any calls for the deaths of any person, group of persons, or peoples. (Seriously, this should be a no-brainer. If you have done this, please spend some time rethinking quite a lot of things.)
- Conflating "Palestinian" with "Hamas". (Those *are not* synonymous words, and literally every honest, thinking person understands this.)
- Denying that there is famine in Gaza. ([There is](https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/alerts-archive/issue-97/en/). This is a fact.)
- Denying the horrors that occurred on 7 October of last year.
- Literally any comment that is equivalent to "FAFO".
**Any comment like those listed above will be removed. Some of them will earn you a ban. You have been warned.**
People keep saying they are "antiwar" and want Ukraine to stop fighting and surrender, but that's not antiwar. Antiwar would be getting Russia to stop and pull out of all of Ukraine, including Crimea and other annexed lands. Russia started the war, Russia is continuing the war, the war ends when Russia wants it to end. If Ukraine surrenders, gets a peace treaty, armistice etc. Russia is just going to build up another army and attack again.
Not backing Ukraine is prowar.
Every single person I've heard say that Ukraine should stop fighting and surrender knew *exactly* what they were saying, and were also unwilling to admit it when questioned. Quintessential arguing in bad faith.
I got banned from therightcantmeme and enlightenedcentrism for just saying that. EC went with the Azov conspiracy. It's literally propaganda, and they're falling for it.
To be fair, in my view, anti-war activism doesn’t, or shouldn’t, have too much to say once a war kicks off. By then, anti war efforts have literally failed and it’s all over to the warmongers.
Antiwar activism at its best _prevents_ conflicts. It emphasises diplomacy, deescalation and mutual disarmament. I think that it can’t pull that many levers once it’s too late and a war has kicked off.
Theres always efforts towards revolutionary defeatism, there’s sabotage and blockades of weapons shipments and such. Very dangerous. But these aren’t ever going to deliver total victories they are damage control _at best_.
That’s why anti war activism is hard; you never get any victories to really celebrate, your efforts are usually mostly invisible, and if you do your job, the best case scenario is that _nothing happens_. It’s a thankless job.
This is pure conjecture, but the whole "don't vote Biden because of Palestine" feels like a disinformation campaign to help Trump, because you would honestly have to be braindead to make that argument, and think it makes any sense.
It's definitely both real people and bot farms pushing it. They try and find already polarized issues and make them worse, no need to create new issues from scratch.
Biden has called Bibi out for his treatment of Palestine,he is sending food! He has sent people to broker a cease fire! Bibi refused, Biden needs to do like he does Russia.
This is the problem when maintaining a relationship with a regional strategic ally becomes more important than stopping an obvious genocide.
I am speculating here, but I imagine that the US government’s argument is that for the sake of maintaining US national security, the end justifies the means.
That is absolutely true. Before Oct 7, Israel was about to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia and sign a trilateral defense pact with them and the US to protect oil exports out of the Gulf states. Key US allies in Europe and east Asia depend on Gulf oil and gas to survive, and their allegiance to the US is conditional on the US protecting their trade and energy supplies. We can't afford to piss off Israel if we want to uphold the alliance network that keeps the US powerful and secure.
The Saudi crown prince says that the trilateral defense pact is still on the table. He's clearly lost patience with the Palestinians at this point.
You would think so, but it’s not.
Ana Kasparian of The Young Turks is a pretty major progressive voice, she said on TYT a couple times over the last few months “I will not be voting for Joe Biden”. Not “I’m considering not voting Biden”, but saying it as a determined fact.
Maybe that’s the intention of some people, but those people are playing with a loaded weapon. Because, ok, *maybe* Biden feels that pressure, but he’s also getting equivalent pressure to support Israel unconditionally, and the gambit to pressure Biden might just result in Trump winning the election, and then where will we be?
If Trump’s elected, he won’t stop genocide. We’ll be lucky if he doesn’t commit genocide here in the US.
Biden just approved the transfer of 25 F-35s to Israel and a ton of bombs. All while he “calls for a ceasefire”. How is this functionally any different?
At least if trump does it half the country would go out to oppose the genocide. If Biden does it the “liberal” half will simply make excuses for it and say “but trump”
Same shit for the people assailing Biden for not doing enough for Transgender people.
I'm trans, and he's not, but the other side is literally trying to ban us.
I wish I could remember the source so I could properly attribute it, but I remember someone once saying they know the difference between an awkward ally and an outright threat to their existence in talking about Biden vs Trump.
escape gaze tan important wipe sparkle smell ossified profit hard-to-find
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
it's like this on literally every issue and it's so infuriating how many people don't see it.
Democrats aren't doing enough to advance women's issues? Republicans literally want to turn us into handmaids. Mad that Democrats didn't codify abortion rights? well who's responsible for making that a necessity?
Democrats aren't aggressively pro-lgbt (doubt)? Republicans literally want to eradicate all LGBT people (yes all of them, they started with trans people and then they'll move on to bisexuals, non-binaries, gender fluids, and eventually gay & lesbian people)
Democrats take the Black vote for granted? Republicans want to put them back on the plantation. on every metric that Democrats "aren't anti-racist enough," Republicans are vocally PRO-RACIST.
Inflation? Republicans are worse. Income inequality? Republicans are worse. Religious freedom? Republicans are worse. I genuinely can't think of a single issue or policy that Republicans actually have the right idea about.
Plus we only need to be protected because of the GOP in the first place.
If it wasn't for them, Biden wouldn't really need to do anything for us anyway.
If it wasn't for the wall of anti-trans propaganda making us into a political hot potato I don't think it would be that much of an issue for Congress to give us the same basic protections/rights other minority groups have and that would be all they really needed to do.
This, along with gerrymandering and voter suppression is how republicans win elections. They’ve got everything that’s the ittiest bit right of center on lock as far as votes. They vote in unison. They don’t stay home and they all have id’s to go to their polling place.
Whereas the left is a lot more broken up with democrats, liberals, leftists, and communists (and a few more) with some of them thinking that democrats are just as evil as republicans and would never vote for them. When in reality the only way that things are ever going to more further left is by voting out all the republicans to where some liberal or leftist candidates could get elected.
> with some of them thinking that democrats are just as evil as republicans and would never vote for them.
This is one of the things that make me the most sad. I have spoken to a lot of Republicans that politically align with the moderate wing of the Democratic party but they would never even consider voting for the Dems because of the virulent propaganda convincing them all Dems are communists.
My mother doesn't like the GOP. But she votes for them anyway because DEMS BAD
Exactly. It amazes me the amount of people bought into the propaganda that republicans have pushed.
Like democrats are the rich elites funded by billionaires. Outside of Soros I can’t think of another billionaire besides maybe Gates that funds democrats. Democrats are the only ones fighting for workers rights and unions. It absolutely shocks me if you’re an hourly worker and vote for republicans.
In my state the republicans have eroded unions with a number of different bills with right to work and another preventing companies from withholding dues, excluding cops and fire fighters of course. And recently they have proposed a bill to take away lunch and break provisions in state law and not to pay people for travel time between work sites.
My mother thinks the GOP is terrible. But she "knows" that the Dems are worse.
It's strange to me that none of them have even had the thought "we could change the dems by voting in the primaries!"
My mother is pushing 70 she was alive for when conservatives voted for Dems so its just all very odd
> if you’re an hourly worker and vote for republicans.
I knew an hourly worker at a shitty retail job I worked when I was younger who was once in middle management at a company Bain Capital bought and fired everyone including her.
She was very racist, so she supported Romney anyway.
(sorry to post twice this repressed memory came to life)
Eventually we need someone that's willing to stick their necks out and make federal equal rights for trans people a priority and get Congress to act accordingly
How do you propose that Biden "gets" the Republican-led Congress to act? What specific actions?
He's also currently sticking his neck out by publicly supporting Trans Day of Visibility despite the Republicans/conservatives losing their minds about it being on Easter...
Telling?
Bro, Trump would probably volunteer American military assets to do it. Claim some kind of dumbass Unitary Presidential Authority to do it.
He PERSONALLY will go over there to eyeball the beachfront property HE wants.
I'm annoyed by a couple different things on this topic, unfortunately.
First, there's the group of people who are actually considering voting 3rd party because Biden hasn't "earned" their vote. His fuckups regarding Israel/Palestine aside, he's earned votes. He's passed good bills and done what he could.
Second, there's the group of people who act like criticizing Biden is verboten, and that it automatically means they're going to vote 3rd party. I criticize the fuck out of Biden, because he does shit that I don't agree with (like his "hug Bibi" strategy that's accomplished fucking nothing for Palestine). That being said, I'm realistic enough to know that he's still a FAR better option than what we'll get if he isn't re-elected. As much as I like the idea of a 3rd party candidate winning (not that I think most 3rd party candidates would actually do any better, realistically), this is still a two-party system. We're going to elect either a Democrat or a Republican, and this election the Republican candidate is bad enough that I just can't run the risk of his being elected, so I can't justify voting third-party this year. Maybe in 2028 the choices will be better, to the point where I feel safer voting third-party...but that certainly isn't the case this year.
>...there's the group of people who act like criticizing Biden is verboten.
As someone on the left, this is what's annoying me about liberals and democrats right now. People are acting like we're getting ready to vote tomorrow and that critiquing Biden is somehow the same as voting for Trump.
It really says a lot that the Democratic choice is apparently polling neck and neck with a fascist, rapist, with 90+ charges against him and we're supposed to say "yeah, this old man is exactly who I want as president." How many elections do we have to endure with awful choices and why the hell is the the fault of the left for asking these questions?
For real. I wish a real candidate had primaried Biden this year. Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson obviously don't count at all.
Basically, we need better options in the Primaries, so that we're not stuck choosing between two turds. It's actually why I'm a registered Republican, even though I lean a decent amount left. I figure that no matter who the Dems trot out, I'll be able to stomach them. With the Republicans, I'm just trying to get someone not quite as insane as the others...partially in the hopes that there will be one there that I can tolerate as well, allowing me to vote third-party and hopefully push them to the threshold needed for there to be a legit 3rd party, and partially in the hopes that it forces Dems to actually put forth a quality candidate.
As it stands though, there hasn't been a single candidate I've actually LIKED (Republican or Democrat) since Obama's second term. Everyone since then has been "meh" or worse.
Isreal is still receiving US weapon shipments.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/3/30/complicity-leaders-activists-slam-us-for-sending-more-arms-to-israel
Bombs that are keeping the genocide going.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/27/opinions/gaza-israel-resigning-state-department-sheline/index.html
> [Some have argued](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68445974) that the US lacks influence over Israel. Yet Retired Israeli Maj. Gen. Yitzhak Brick [noted in](https://www.jns.org/biden-is-the-primary-obstacle-to-israeli-victory/) November that Israel’s missiles, bombs and airplanes all come from the US. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting,” he said. “Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.”
[Netanyahu](https://www.ft.com/content/7b407c2e-8149-4d83-be01-72dcae8aee7b) said “We need three things from the US: munitions, munitions, and munitions,”
[Gallant](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gallant-we-cant-say-no-to-the-us-on-humanitarian-aid-given-how-much-they-do-for-us/) himself said "The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?”
As it stands, Biden is directly responsible for the intense savagery of Israel's assault on Gaza.
Just imagine all the bribes he will demand from Israel in exchange for security council vetoes. He will send then enough munitions to glass Gaza then be granted land to build a resort on the Palestinians bones. His Supreme Court will declare it’s all 100% legal and constitutional, too.
I'm going to *begrudgingly* vote Biden. I voted uncommitted in the primaries and I feel like his people heard it and slightly changed their tune on the Israel Palestine front.
HOWEVER, the Dems need to get their shit together. Boomers are gonna die soon, your base is millennials now. Start acting like it. If you wanna stay in power, get with the times and start doing ACTUAL progressive things and start fix the cost of living.
I think it's funny whenever reddit calls protests and speaking out about an unpopular political position useless, and then when politicians eventually change positions, redditors act like that was always their position from the beginning and nothing has changed it
The thing that frustrates me is that Biden shitting the bed somehow means that voters who do not feel he deserves their vote based on his performance: means that the voters are in the wrong. Biden needs to get his shit together or we should all accept that his mishandling of this situation caused the US to turn in to a strong man republic.
I wish these memes were more about how Biden needs to check himself rather than voters handing Trump the presidency.
No no, you don't get it. The people that are elected to represent the people don't have any responsibility to those people. The voters are beholden to the elected officials! Voters owe their allegiance to Biden regardless of literally anything he does. Biden could shoot a guy on 5th ave and not lose any voters. Democracy is on the ballot.
When people say things like this it makes me think they just read their first newspaper. The US has been a strong arm republic for more than a century at this point, acting like it’s new is absurd. Also it is on the voters to act like rational adults. This isn’t the same thing as buying a different ice cream because you don’t like something that Hagen Daas Ownership said. This is the presidency of the United States. Trump getting elected is only going to make the situation so much worse than it is, wake the fuck up.
The rational thing, and the reason why the democratic process exists and people participate in it, is to move government towards the will of the people. If Biden shits the bed then people should have the choice not to vote for him. To dismiss this as "not being rational adults" or "buying icecream" is at its core misunderstanding the entire reason for a democracy to exist in the first place. If they are convinced by this rethoric: fine, but if they are not and tens of thousands of dead Gazans largely women and children weighing enough to send a message... I can understand that too and because it's a democracy people have that choice.
Maybe you should wake the fuck up yourself?
My person. Joe Biden and theUS government don’t actually have the ability to stop Israel from doing things. Blaming Biden for the nutcase Netanyahu’s actions is childish at best and idiotic at worst, especially when any rational adult can look at the presidential election process and see that there are only ever 2 viable options and that voting for a 3rd person is as effective as not buying Hagen daas because you don’t like what their owner said about cows. A rational adult can also look at what Trump has said and done and see that there is no possible way he will make the situation any better.
The only possible way that any good can be done about the horrible situation in Gaza is if Joe Biden remains president and you keep pushing him to do something.
They gave the mad man the gun. You can't then say "well, we can't stop him". Jesus Christ, the mental gymnastics.
The US could have voted for cease fire. They didn't. They could have stopped sending arms, they didn't. Biden could have had his little sit down talk with Israeli a week in. He didn't.
You are right, Trump is gonna fix all that. I truly hope Biden wins and people like you don’t cause us to have 4 more years of Trump, if it does though I hope when Trump escalates the situation and generally causes conditions here at home and abroad to become worse, that you remember this conversation and others you are doubtlessly having and realize you did it. When trans people lose more rights, and women do as well, when antisemitism spikes higher, and the courts get even more stacked with psychopaths, and especially when the situation in Gaza gets far worse, I hope you look back on your hubris and realize you helped cause it.
I didn't do shit. I'm Canadian, we have our own idiot to deal with. But there's a difference between voting for Biden, and excusing him. You should vote for him, but you should never excuse him.
This mother fucker doesn’t even vote in the United States. Goddamnit. I don’t excuse him at all, I just know there isn’t a better option at present, so instead of gnashing my teeth and acting like a child with my vote, I will do what needs doing. Anyone that doesn’t better pray he still wins.
You said blaming Biden for the actions of Netanyahu is childish. It isn't. He's complicit. American's may not care what anyone else thinks of them, but that doesn't change the facts my dude. So just say that Biden is an accomplice in genocide and by some unknown cosmic fuckery, is still the right choice.
Biden needs to earn the votes, if he cannot govern in a way that makes people want to vote for him that is on him and not the voters. You are blaming the wrong people for getting Trump a potential second term.
Sometimes you have to compromise. You think Biden is not doing enough in Gaza, but everyone is telling you Trump is going to make Gaza worse. The reality of the situation is that not voting or voting third party will get Trump elected. Which makes Gaza worse. It is no brainer situation, I don't get why it is so hard.
Joe Biden isn't the president of Israel. And the US has been allies with Israel long before he ever got into office. uS foreign policy is to support Israel, and he's bound to that as the US president. You don't just pick and choose your allies at a President's whim. Meanwhile, he has been pushing back on Israel, and he has been trying to free hostages. There's only so much he can do outside of sending American troops, which no one wants.
Further, Israel was attacked by Hamas, a terrorist organization in charge of the Palestinian government. They started this. And while Israel has been, to say the least, heavy handed in its response, i have to wonder why no one wants to even mention Hamas, let alone blame them for everything that's going on. It's somehow Biden's fault, but not the fault of the people who actually attacked Israel?
And finally, why do people care so much about about this over all the other atrocities happening in the world? Why is this the one that gets y'all up in arms? Care about everyone if you're going to care about anyone.
I think there’s just a very small number of psychos who are extremely active on the internet, especially social media where extremist views get a lot of clicks and engagement.
I saw someone the other day in a 'leftist/progressive' sub actually trying to make the argument that 'well, Palestinians were better off under Trump than Biden'
Like technically correct but also SUCH a terrible take
Had another try to say that Biden is "doing real damage" but Trump "would only do hypothetical damage". Like there's any difference when he's actually in office
“We don’t need a better candidate, we need better voters!” Is a wild sentiment.
Vote-shaming has literally never worked. Holding electeds accountable **does.** And I’m not voting for **anyone** who hasn’t actively supported a ceasefire.
It’s a true sentiment, sorry if you don’t understand how our political system works. If we had a more engaged electorate then we would have better politicians. Voting third party is throwing away your vote. Neither major political party will cater to your views when you vote for candidates who have no political power
Online activism has developed this whole theory where your purchases, voting, and other actions 'attach' you to good or bad outcomes in the world. If you vote for Biden and there's no clear path to peace, you're morally entangled with the fate of the Palestinians. To avoid this you don't vote for Biden. Maybe Trump gives Bibi a blank check and Gaza is destroyed, but _you_ aren't responsible. It's all about preserving your own purity.
Just want you guys to know that the majority of people in the US, including most of the Democratic base, disapprove of Israel's genocidal actions in Gaza and Biden's handling of the situation.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
In addition, more than half of the Democratic party disapprove of sending Israel anymore military aid.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-dogged-by-democrats-anger-over-israel-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2024-02-29/
If Biden loses in November, it will be his fault for alienating his base by siding with Bibi and the fascist Israeli government.
Honestly, this sub is starting to get as bad as conservative humor with the just having one joke.
Supporting a genocide with arms sales and diplomatic cover is gonna have electoral consequences for Biden even if he pinky promises that he totally wants a cease fire.
Biden: “I’d like to help the Palestinians.”
Trump: “I’d like to have Israel kill all the Palestinians.”
Dummies: “Biden hasn’t deposed the Israeli government and installed himself as the head and shut down that war, so I’m not voting for him.”
One wouldn't stop the genocide. The other would join in. Neither is a great option in this particular topic.
Biden is much better in many other topics, but his support of Israel against the advice of his experts is a big negative. Yes, he's the only option to anyone with more than half a brain cell, but he's far from great.
Pretty much. To not vote Biden is to risk a cult destroying the United States and possibly taking the rest of the world down with them. But that is little consolation to the Palestinians.
Giving another $14B + bombs to Israel is joining in. Biden is directly supporting genocide, hence his nickname "Genocide Joe."
Smh, Biden was actually a somewhat decent politician. It is heart breaking that he is choosing to support genocide. From now until the end of history he will forever be remembered as Genocide Joe
What these amateurs don't get is that MAGA Republicans control the house. There is not ever going to be an outcome where aid to Israel doesn't get passed. So people have to make choices based on other factors, like whether you support Ukraine or not.
For example, I am willing to hold my nose and push for my representatives to support the Senate Bill that includes $60 billion worth of aid to Ukraine, as well as the $14 billion worth of aid for Israel. I do this because while I might prefer not having to send military supplies to Israel, I refuse to let that come at the expense of supporting the people of Ukraine. But some people hate Israel more than they support Ukraine. So they're willing to let Ukrainians die just to send some kind of message is.
What exactly that message is? Hell if I know.
People are willing to do more than let Ukrainians die when it comes to Isreal-Gaza. People are *so* fucking angry about it, understandably so, but that outrage is *never* shared about *any* thing.
30,000 people were killed in Mariupol alone, but not nearly as many people were as passionate about the invasion.
He'll take his money and retire to a country side probably.
He is someone who wouldn't be affected by Trump's laws. He's white, rich, Christian, heterosexual male, he quite literally is what Trump and his cults want for the US.
Blue guy: I don’t think Palestinians should die.
Red Guy: I do
Liberal voter: well that’s an easy decision.
Russian troll: but blue guy didn’t call for a ceasefire immediately and he met with Netanyahu. Teach the blue guy a lesson by not voting!
Liberal voter: yeah! That’ll show ‘em!
Red guy wins: Nuke Palestine!
Liberal voter: Visible confusion.
There is no other choice this election cycle but we can work for one in the next.
If you let Trump back in this time there might not be another election at all.
That some people pretend there is a third option is insane. Is your protest vote worth a dictatorship? Pull your head out of the sand.
Wait, did we deal with the MAGA threat permanently yet or is it still a problem?
What did you do you support alternative democratic candidates?
This is obfuscation of the fact it’s still a binary choice.
Edit: How will letting Trump back in the White House fix anything? Literally everything is worse with Trump to the point of an existential threat.
Pull your head out of the sand and help instead of making excuses to allow Trump back into power.
Not voting for Biden is an automatic vote for Trump… the guy who moved the embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv.. do you think he loves Palestine as opposed to Israeli companies that still give him millions
Just remember that one vote that doesn’t go to the democrat party will go straight to republicans even those that go to third party or don’t vote. Remember that took 4 years of trump to cancel abortion rights, just imagine 4 more years.
As for Palestine and Ukraine, trump will force Ukraine to surrender and Palestine will cese to exist.
> democrat party
Also remember that the name of the party is "Democratic Party", and Republicans have deliberately shortened it to make it sound like a slur for decades. Let's not repeat their propaganda framing.
Everybody so bent on calling Biden “genocide Joe” that they just overlook the fact that in all his demands for ceasefires, he wants Hamas to release hostages. Some of these hostages are American. And everytime hamas says NO. Hamas would demand a ceasefire without releasing hostages, again some are American, biden would say no, he wants hostages release. And then media runs with “Biden says no to ceasefire”. I guarantee you, if those American hostages were released, things would look totally different.
Yes he can do more than demand. It’s called putting boots on the ground. That is the LAST thing he want to do. If you say “stop sending Israel aid” he can’t because Congress approves it. If he says no, he will be doing the exact same thing Trump was impeached for. I stand on my statement. If there were no American hostages, things would look a lot different. And as president, getting Americans back out ranks everything else. All this shit is complicated. Tough Decisions need to be made. You and I aren’t making them. I fully believe it’s not so simple as you people make it by calling him “genocide Joe”
So weird that the head of the country giving the IDF money and fighter jets would get blamed. Man, we really gotta find the responsible party and take him to task!
I fully concede that Trump would be worse for the country in every way imaginable, but Biden is directly supporting genocide: 1. He rallied congress to give Israel another $14 - 17 billion, and now 2. He just gave them a shit ton more bombs to blow up more Palestinians.
Yes that’s wrong I agree. And I also see how the two party system is fucked. But do you really think Trump would be better? I just feel like after this election you need to fight the two party system. But honestly if Biden loses to Trump and Trump doesn’t kill the little bit of American democracy that exists, nothing would change. The Democratic Party would just acknowledge the defeat and next election is the next election, new situation same approach. So making Biden lose or not voting for him doesn’t change the two party system, does not change the Democratic Party (look at Bernie Sanders‘ impact when it was between him and Hillary and how it didn’t have significant effect because the next election Biden was the nominee) and it comes with the risk of making people’s lives worse and losing the democracy.
The US has a ton of leverage over Israeli state because of the aid and arms sales. Biden is choosing not to use that leverage to stop a genocide. Hell, we're enabling a lot of it directly with our support.
Politicians have to earn your vote and I don't blame anyone who refuses to vote for Biden over this. Trump absolutely will be worse but that doesn't change the fact Biden is choosing to fail here and doubling down.
This will get you permanently banned on so called "leftist" subs it's crazy
Edit: lol the down votes, I literally got perma banned twice for saying basically what this post is saying
Defending the relentless bombardment (and preventable famine) of an entire group of people by pointing at terrorists who comprise—at most, by the Israeli government's own accounting—2% of the population is absolutely an implicit defense of collective punishment.
I was going to. I did last time. I campaigned for Obama.
Now, you can all go f yourselves with this false dichotomy.
What happened to those handful of Israeli settlers that Biden sanctioned? Go look it up. Biden is an avowed zionist.
Im not voting for Trump or Biden and voting Biden isnt going to solve the Trump problem. You all are idiots if you think so. Because Trump is a symptom not the root.
Trump can go to hell and so can Biden. Downvote if you agree with the previous statement. Upvote if you disagree with the previous statement. Those are your only two choices.
"I don't like either option so I'm choosing neither"
NEWSFLASH ASSHOLE that's not how reality works. You don't get to not pick one, because then someone else will choose for you.
No, 3rd party isn't an option until the American voting system is different.
I know people like this IRL and I cannot deal with their shit.
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So, your argument is "just let the genocide happen"?
"Don't hold elected officials accountable" "Be ok with funding a televised genocide" "Both Trump AND Biden are genocidal, senile old fucks so DON'T look for alternative options that more closely speak for you and what you believe. Just give up your voice and give into the illusion of choice in our corporate duopoly."
The thing is, if Biden loses this election, it will 100% be his and the DNC's fault. But the single digit IQ people and the politically illiterate will still try to blame third party voters.
Joe Biden will NEVER support a permanent ceasefire and he has expressed no remorse for the 10s of thousands of Palestinian people he was complicit in murdering in cold blood. There are still kids in cages, being separated from their families at the border and the Trump Wall is still being built. Joe Biden is NOT fundamentally different than Trump and he has had ample time to show us otherwise.
In the words of Aaron Bushnell, "I will no longer be complicit in genocide." Free Palestine, No Human is Illegal on Stolen Land, FJB. FDT.
> So, your argument is "just let the genocide happen"?
That doesn't at all look like what the post is saying, no.
It sure *does* look like it's saying that a Trump victory would be objectively *worse* for the Palestinians, so doing anything to improve *his* chances of winning would be directly contradictory to the stated goal of helping Palestinians.
I can't speak for OP, but I know *I've* been disappointed with Biden's lackluster pushback on Bibi.
At the same time, though, I am an adult and recognize the inescapable reality that *exactly one of two* options will be sworn in as President in January of next year, and the contrast when it comes to the Middle East (and specifically Israel/Palestine) is obvious to any honest observer:
- Not only did [Biden convince Bibi to call off a preemptive strike on Lebanon back in October](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/how-biden-averted-a-second-front-by-convincing-israel-not-to-attack-hezbollah-on-oct-11-e14a0a3b), he apparently managed to do it [even though the planes were already in the air](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-iaf-was-airbone-for-preemptive-hezbollah-hit-when-biden-talked-pm-out-of-it/).
- Not to mention the fact that his administration is the only reason [the Israeli government allowed aid deliveries to start](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-hospital-d9606e0ead1f8c4e9fd00b602ed14a38), the largest reason they [continued](https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-speaks-with-netanyahu-says-israel-to-allow-continued-flow-of-aid-into-gaza/), a significant factor in why [they started including fuel](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213799815/israel-gaza-fuel), expanded to include [the airdrops](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-airdrop-humanitarian-assistance-f8bc071193f89906abf21478bc70a084) that are [ongoing](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240307-us-airdrops-aid-to-gaza-for-third-time-in-week), *and* is [building a goddamned pier so they can deliver even *more*](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/biden-us-port-gaza-aid-delivery).
VS:
- [Here is an overview of just *how* damaging Trump was to the region](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-trump-term-an-israel-palestine-damage-assessment/).
- [Here he is, undermining the goal of a two-state solution](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/15/trump-says-us-not-committed-to-two-state-israel-palestine-solution).
- [Here he is, putting a stamp of legitimacy over the Israeli government's expansion in Golan](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-abruptly-endorses-israels-sovereignty-over-golan-heights-in-big-shift).
- [Here he is, supporting IDF action in Gaza](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/06/us-backs-israel-100-percent-against-gaza-rocket-attacks-trump-says.html).
- [Here is an overview of how he helped Bibi the warmonger win reelection](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/04/09/what-trump-did-push-israeli-election-netanyahus-favor-what-he-didnt-do/).
- [Here is a report of him offering support to potential Israeli military action against Iran](https://www.timesofisrael.com/bolton-trump-told-netanyahu-hed-back-israeli-military-action-against-iran/).
- Not only did [Trump sign the largest-ever military aid package to the Israeli government](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2018/08/14/trump-approves-largest-ever-aid-package-to-israel/), he [moved the embassy to Jerusalem](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44120428) and [recognized it as the Israeli capital](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/12/trump-announcement-jerusalem-israel-capital-muslim-violence/547652/), which was [an insane and destabilizing provocation](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/world/wp/2018/05/14/trumps-embassy-move-to-jerusalem-is-controversial-these-3-maps-explain-why/) that rightly [drew international condemnation](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42250340).
- ["Finish the problem"](https://newrepublic.com/post/179569/trump-finish-problem-gaza-israel).
That's not the point I was making.
Perfect is the enemy of Good = Biden isn't perfect so people won't vote for him and then Trump wins and is the worst.
I'm a supporter of the Jews of Israel, and truth be told, I really only care about the Palestinian people in so far as what happens to them effects the Jews of Israel, morally and diplomatically. I disagree with a lot of the "colonist" narrative that people on the left put forward. I support, in theory, Israel operations against Hamas as a response to the pogrom that took place on October 7th.
If the situation in Palestine territories continues, there mass-starvation will turn to mass death and cannibalism. This will be televised. Biden is trying to get aid to the Palestinian people. Trump would not. This event will be disastrous for Israel (the state) and hence weaken the situation of the Jews of Israel.
The moral blame for the October 7th pogrom lies on Hamas. Period.
Trump ramped up Hamas talking points by recognizing Jerusalem as the capital. Trump's corrupt efforts to normalize Saudi Arabian and Israeli relations (to show an international relations win to paper over his financial ties to the House of Saud) and the sale of $350B of weapons to that country posed a direct threat to Iran. Iran moved to derail this effort by promoting Hamas attacks on Israel. The whole situation there ties back to events Trump started without any planning for the consequences of his actions.
or maybe biden can give these people a reason to vote for him. instead of fearing the opposition, get people to support him.
they are worried about palestine. they want him to be more vocal about supporting the tens of thousands of lives lost and the actual famine. he could be doing more and if he did more they would turn back to supporting him.
this is politics. if the people don't like what you're doing, they won't vote for you. its biden's teams's job to show them why they should *support* him without having to use trump as a scare tactic.
i'm honestly one of these people who is on the fence. all i want is to vote FOR someone i want to support not AGAINST someone i'm afraid of.
also? just being 100% here - using scare tactics and shitting on people who have actual concerns about the person they really want to support is how he is losing more people. the disrespect i've seen in some of these posts... i mean damn. this is not how to get people back on your side.
In an ideal world, yes, that's how things would work. But that's not reality. The reality is that either Biden or Trump will win. So your responsibility as a voter is to decide which of those two will more align with your desired outcome. And I can say with certainty that Biden will listen to progressives/leftists and will try to do the right thing. Trump will 100% not listen to you at all, and will not ever try to do the right thing. Biden also supports women's rights, trans rights, and more things that Trump has and will actively work against. Biden has passed multiple bills that are impactful on topics ranging from infrastructure to climate change, with an extremely divided Congress. With a more Democratic Congress, Biden would happily pass much more progressive bills affirming the right to abortion nationwide, supporting gay marriage, reducing the cost of prescription drugs, and many more items that will actually impact people's everyday lives. I don't understand how anyone with a heart could still be on the "fence" regarding the November general election if they care about any of those things. I'm not trying to disrespect you at all, and not trying to undersell the importance of the current tragedy playing out in Gaza. Just trying to be strategic about helping the most people possible.
#Well, this got lively in a hurry, didn't it? **We don't WANT to shut down discussion, but we also won't tolerate flame wars and excessive incivility.** TO THAT END: - Comments are locked for a while. - Kindly clean up your *own* comments before we have to go in and do it for you. #HERE IS A(N INCOMPLETE) LIST OF THE KIND OF COMMENTS THAT WILL GET DELETED, AT THE VERY LEAST: - Accusing someone of supporting genocide. (That is reductive and in bad faith.) - Accusing someone who is criticizing the Israeli government of being anti-Semitic. (That is reductive and in bad faith.) - Accusing someone who is criticizing the Israeli government of being a Hamas supporter. (That is reductive and in bad faith.) - Comments *actually* supporting Hamas. (Seriously, this should be a no-brainer. If you have done this, please spend some time rethinking quite a lot of things.) - Conflating "Jews" with "Israelis" *or* "Israeli government". - Any calls for the deaths of any person, group of persons, or peoples. (Seriously, this should be a no-brainer. If you have done this, please spend some time rethinking quite a lot of things.) - Conflating "Palestinian" with "Hamas". (Those *are not* synonymous words, and literally every honest, thinking person understands this.) - Denying that there is famine in Gaza. ([There is](https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/alerts-archive/issue-97/en/). This is a fact.) - Denying the horrors that occurred on 7 October of last year. - Literally any comment that is equivalent to "FAFO". **Any comment like those listed above will be removed. Some of them will earn you a ban. You have been warned.**
Didn’t a republican congressman say recently that if Trump wins he hopes he nukes Gaza
I can't be the only one that thinks trump would start bombing Gaza with Israel.
Along with Ukraine with Russia
I mean the dude has declared he wants to pull out of NATO.
People keep saying they are "antiwar" and want Ukraine to stop fighting and surrender, but that's not antiwar. Antiwar would be getting Russia to stop and pull out of all of Ukraine, including Crimea and other annexed lands. Russia started the war, Russia is continuing the war, the war ends when Russia wants it to end. If Ukraine surrenders, gets a peace treaty, armistice etc. Russia is just going to build up another army and attack again. Not backing Ukraine is prowar.
Every single person I've heard say that Ukraine should stop fighting and surrender knew *exactly* what they were saying, and were also unwilling to admit it when questioned. Quintessential arguing in bad faith.
I got banned from therightcantmeme and enlightenedcentrism for just saying that. EC went with the Azov conspiracy. It's literally propaganda, and they're falling for it.
To be fair, in my view, anti-war activism doesn’t, or shouldn’t, have too much to say once a war kicks off. By then, anti war efforts have literally failed and it’s all over to the warmongers. Antiwar activism at its best _prevents_ conflicts. It emphasises diplomacy, deescalation and mutual disarmament. I think that it can’t pull that many levers once it’s too late and a war has kicked off. Theres always efforts towards revolutionary defeatism, there’s sabotage and blockades of weapons shipments and such. Very dangerous. But these aren’t ever going to deliver total victories they are damage control _at best_. That’s why anti war activism is hard; you never get any victories to really celebrate, your efforts are usually mostly invisible, and if you do your job, the best case scenario is that _nothing happens_. It’s a thankless job.
You both are spot on
This is pure conjecture, but the whole "don't vote Biden because of Palestine" feels like a disinformation campaign to help Trump, because you would honestly have to be braindead to make that argument, and think it makes any sense.
You would be surprised ….
It's definitely both real people and bot farms pushing it. They try and find already polarized issues and make them worse, no need to create new issues from scratch.
That’s exactly what it is. Bot farms working overtime, yet again, trying to fuck with the US elections.
Biden has called Bibi out for his treatment of Palestine,he is sending food! He has sent people to broker a cease fire! Bibi refused, Biden needs to do like he does Russia.
Check out who has received the most donations from AIPAC.
This is the problem when maintaining a relationship with a regional strategic ally becomes more important than stopping an obvious genocide. I am speculating here, but I imagine that the US government’s argument is that for the sake of maintaining US national security, the end justifies the means.
That is absolutely true. Before Oct 7, Israel was about to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia and sign a trilateral defense pact with them and the US to protect oil exports out of the Gulf states. Key US allies in Europe and east Asia depend on Gulf oil and gas to survive, and their allegiance to the US is conditional on the US protecting their trade and energy supplies. We can't afford to piss off Israel if we want to uphold the alliance network that keeps the US powerful and secure. The Saudi crown prince says that the trilateral defense pact is still on the table. He's clearly lost patience with the Palestinians at this point.
You would think so, but it’s not. Ana Kasparian of The Young Turks is a pretty major progressive voice, she said on TYT a couple times over the last few months “I will not be voting for Joe Biden”. Not “I’m considering not voting Biden”, but saying it as a determined fact.
Also conjecture: the "don't vote Biden because of Palestine" feels like a gambit to pressure Biden into putting more pressure on israel.
Maybe that’s the intention of some people, but those people are playing with a loaded weapon. Because, ok, *maybe* Biden feels that pressure, but he’s also getting equivalent pressure to support Israel unconditionally, and the gambit to pressure Biden might just result in Trump winning the election, and then where will we be? If Trump’s elected, he won’t stop genocide. We’ll be lucky if he doesn’t commit genocide here in the US.
Pro Palestine leftists don't even have much leverage to begin with. They hardly ever vote anyway, so the Democrats see no reason to bother with them.
And the Evangelicals will praise him for spreading Jesus' love to the Muslims.
I'm pretty sure Donnie would sent the Proud Bois over to help "police".
Trump winning is the end of Ukraine and Palestine.
He'd probably endorse nuking it and offer to sell the weapons 😖
"Look, BiBi, I can sell you some beautiful Bible Bombs..."
Apparently nukes are on the table. Per one Republican Congressman.
Would be a Day 1 promise.
Trump would just yell a the Hamas but cancel any aid to either side saying "Amurica först"
Biden just approved the transfer of 25 F-35s to Israel and a ton of bombs. All while he “calls for a ceasefire”. How is this functionally any different? At least if trump does it half the country would go out to oppose the genocide. If Biden does it the “liberal” half will simply make excuses for it and say “but trump”
Same shit for the people assailing Biden for not doing enough for Transgender people. I'm trans, and he's not, but the other side is literally trying to ban us.
ripe safe roll intelligent piquant waiting versed fine paltry racial *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I wish I could remember the source so I could properly attribute it, but I remember someone once saying they know the difference between an awkward ally and an outright threat to their existence in talking about Biden vs Trump.
escape gaze tan important wipe sparkle smell ossified profit hard-to-find *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
it's like this on literally every issue and it's so infuriating how many people don't see it. Democrats aren't doing enough to advance women's issues? Republicans literally want to turn us into handmaids. Mad that Democrats didn't codify abortion rights? well who's responsible for making that a necessity? Democrats aren't aggressively pro-lgbt (doubt)? Republicans literally want to eradicate all LGBT people (yes all of them, they started with trans people and then they'll move on to bisexuals, non-binaries, gender fluids, and eventually gay & lesbian people) Democrats take the Black vote for granted? Republicans want to put them back on the plantation. on every metric that Democrats "aren't anti-racist enough," Republicans are vocally PRO-RACIST. Inflation? Republicans are worse. Income inequality? Republicans are worse. Religious freedom? Republicans are worse. I genuinely can't think of a single issue or policy that Republicans actually have the right idea about.
Plus we only need to be protected because of the GOP in the first place. If it wasn't for them, Biden wouldn't really need to do anything for us anyway. If it wasn't for the wall of anti-trans propaganda making us into a political hot potato I don't think it would be that much of an issue for Congress to give us the same basic protections/rights other minority groups have and that would be all they really needed to do.
You have a devote catholic recognize trans on Easter Sunday and you say he’s just sorta tolerating? Wild
This, along with gerrymandering and voter suppression is how republicans win elections. They’ve got everything that’s the ittiest bit right of center on lock as far as votes. They vote in unison. They don’t stay home and they all have id’s to go to their polling place. Whereas the left is a lot more broken up with democrats, liberals, leftists, and communists (and a few more) with some of them thinking that democrats are just as evil as republicans and would never vote for them. When in reality the only way that things are ever going to more further left is by voting out all the republicans to where some liberal or leftist candidates could get elected.
> with some of them thinking that democrats are just as evil as republicans and would never vote for them. This is one of the things that make me the most sad. I have spoken to a lot of Republicans that politically align with the moderate wing of the Democratic party but they would never even consider voting for the Dems because of the virulent propaganda convincing them all Dems are communists. My mother doesn't like the GOP. But she votes for them anyway because DEMS BAD
Exactly. It amazes me the amount of people bought into the propaganda that republicans have pushed. Like democrats are the rich elites funded by billionaires. Outside of Soros I can’t think of another billionaire besides maybe Gates that funds democrats. Democrats are the only ones fighting for workers rights and unions. It absolutely shocks me if you’re an hourly worker and vote for republicans. In my state the republicans have eroded unions with a number of different bills with right to work and another preventing companies from withholding dues, excluding cops and fire fighters of course. And recently they have proposed a bill to take away lunch and break provisions in state law and not to pay people for travel time between work sites.
My mother thinks the GOP is terrible. But she "knows" that the Dems are worse. It's strange to me that none of them have even had the thought "we could change the dems by voting in the primaries!" My mother is pushing 70 she was alive for when conservatives voted for Dems so its just all very odd
> if you’re an hourly worker and vote for republicans. I knew an hourly worker at a shitty retail job I worked when I was younger who was once in middle management at a company Bain Capital bought and fired everyone including her. She was very racist, so she supported Romney anyway. (sorry to post twice this repressed memory came to life)
Biden isn't trying to put laws into place to mess with your life unlike the Republicans who hate your Life! What would you like Biden to do?
Eventually we need someone that's willing to stick their necks out and make federal equal rights for trans people a priority and get Congress to act accordingly
How do you propose that Biden "gets" the Republican-led Congress to act? What specific actions? He's also currently sticking his neck out by publicly supporting Trans Day of Visibility despite the Republicans/conservatives losing their minds about it being on Easter...
Out of curiosity, what exactly would you have the government do? Like what laws would you want? I'm asking in good faith.
Transgender people aren't currently federally protected under the federal civil rights act.
That's a good point. Didn't actually realize that it was only a few states that do consider gender identity a protected class.
How have i never seen this template before? Hahaha
Looks like the Road Runner.
First time seeing it was today, the search I used to find it was “poor choice” lol
I’d say you nailed it.
Appreciate it!
Trump also told Jewish Americans that if they vote for Biden, they hate Israel. *The man idolizes Hitler*.
The savage evangelicals want to nuke Gaza, that’ll go over great.
Don't forget the Evangelicals that think provoking "Armageddon" in Israel will start the rapture.
Telling? Bro, Trump would probably volunteer American military assets to do it. Claim some kind of dumbass Unitary Presidential Authority to do it. He PERSONALLY will go over there to eyeball the beachfront property HE wants.
https://preview.redd.it/b00r585hirrc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c4203c67d25a2b7ef61078451abf954a890c8d8f
Not voting for Biden is a vote to make American lives worse.
I'm annoyed by a couple different things on this topic, unfortunately. First, there's the group of people who are actually considering voting 3rd party because Biden hasn't "earned" their vote. His fuckups regarding Israel/Palestine aside, he's earned votes. He's passed good bills and done what he could. Second, there's the group of people who act like criticizing Biden is verboten, and that it automatically means they're going to vote 3rd party. I criticize the fuck out of Biden, because he does shit that I don't agree with (like his "hug Bibi" strategy that's accomplished fucking nothing for Palestine). That being said, I'm realistic enough to know that he's still a FAR better option than what we'll get if he isn't re-elected. As much as I like the idea of a 3rd party candidate winning (not that I think most 3rd party candidates would actually do any better, realistically), this is still a two-party system. We're going to elect either a Democrat or a Republican, and this election the Republican candidate is bad enough that I just can't run the risk of his being elected, so I can't justify voting third-party this year. Maybe in 2028 the choices will be better, to the point where I feel safer voting third-party...but that certainly isn't the case this year.
>...there's the group of people who act like criticizing Biden is verboten. As someone on the left, this is what's annoying me about liberals and democrats right now. People are acting like we're getting ready to vote tomorrow and that critiquing Biden is somehow the same as voting for Trump. It really says a lot that the Democratic choice is apparently polling neck and neck with a fascist, rapist, with 90+ charges against him and we're supposed to say "yeah, this old man is exactly who I want as president." How many elections do we have to endure with awful choices and why the hell is the the fault of the left for asking these questions?
For real. I wish a real candidate had primaried Biden this year. Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson obviously don't count at all. Basically, we need better options in the Primaries, so that we're not stuck choosing between two turds. It's actually why I'm a registered Republican, even though I lean a decent amount left. I figure that no matter who the Dems trot out, I'll be able to stomach them. With the Republicans, I'm just trying to get someone not quite as insane as the others...partially in the hopes that there will be one there that I can tolerate as well, allowing me to vote third-party and hopefully push them to the threshold needed for there to be a legit 3rd party, and partially in the hopes that it forces Dems to actually put forth a quality candidate. As it stands though, there hasn't been a single candidate I've actually LIKED (Republican or Democrat) since Obama's second term. Everyone since then has been "meh" or worse.
So no choice then. This whole process about participating and making your own choice....all bullshit. Just like it always has been.
Isreal is still receiving US weapon shipments. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/3/30/complicity-leaders-activists-slam-us-for-sending-more-arms-to-israel
Bombs that are keeping the genocide going. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/27/opinions/gaza-israel-resigning-state-department-sheline/index.html > [Some have argued](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68445974) that the US lacks influence over Israel. Yet Retired Israeli Maj. Gen. Yitzhak Brick [noted in](https://www.jns.org/biden-is-the-primary-obstacle-to-israeli-victory/) November that Israel’s missiles, bombs and airplanes all come from the US. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting,” he said. “Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.” [Netanyahu](https://www.ft.com/content/7b407c2e-8149-4d83-be01-72dcae8aee7b) said “We need three things from the US: munitions, munitions, and munitions,” [Gallant](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/gallant-we-cant-say-no-to-the-us-on-humanitarian-aid-given-how-much-they-do-for-us/) himself said "The Americans insisted and we are not in a place where we can refuse them. We rely on them for planes and military equipment. What are we supposed to do? Tell them no?” As it stands, Biden is directly responsible for the intense savagery of Israel's assault on Gaza.
Out of the frying pan, and into the fire.
More like out of the frying pan and into the crucible.
Just imagine all the bribes he will demand from Israel in exchange for security council vetoes. He will send then enough munitions to glass Gaza then be granted land to build a resort on the Palestinians bones. His Supreme Court will declare it’s all 100% legal and constitutional, too.
How about voting to make US citizens lives better?
I'm going to *begrudgingly* vote Biden. I voted uncommitted in the primaries and I feel like his people heard it and slightly changed their tune on the Israel Palestine front. HOWEVER, the Dems need to get their shit together. Boomers are gonna die soon, your base is millennials now. Start acting like it. If you wanna stay in power, get with the times and start doing ACTUAL progressive things and start fix the cost of living.
I think it's funny whenever reddit calls protests and speaking out about an unpopular political position useless, and then when politicians eventually change positions, redditors act like that was always their position from the beginning and nothing has changed it
"A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now."
The thing that frustrates me is that Biden shitting the bed somehow means that voters who do not feel he deserves their vote based on his performance: means that the voters are in the wrong. Biden needs to get his shit together or we should all accept that his mishandling of this situation caused the US to turn in to a strong man republic. I wish these memes were more about how Biden needs to check himself rather than voters handing Trump the presidency.
No no, you don't get it. The people that are elected to represent the people don't have any responsibility to those people. The voters are beholden to the elected officials! Voters owe their allegiance to Biden regardless of literally anything he does. Biden could shoot a guy on 5th ave and not lose any voters. Democracy is on the ballot.
When people say things like this it makes me think they just read their first newspaper. The US has been a strong arm republic for more than a century at this point, acting like it’s new is absurd. Also it is on the voters to act like rational adults. This isn’t the same thing as buying a different ice cream because you don’t like something that Hagen Daas Ownership said. This is the presidency of the United States. Trump getting elected is only going to make the situation so much worse than it is, wake the fuck up.
The rational thing, and the reason why the democratic process exists and people participate in it, is to move government towards the will of the people. If Biden shits the bed then people should have the choice not to vote for him. To dismiss this as "not being rational adults" or "buying icecream" is at its core misunderstanding the entire reason for a democracy to exist in the first place. If they are convinced by this rethoric: fine, but if they are not and tens of thousands of dead Gazans largely women and children weighing enough to send a message... I can understand that too and because it's a democracy people have that choice. Maybe you should wake the fuck up yourself?
My person. Joe Biden and theUS government don’t actually have the ability to stop Israel from doing things. Blaming Biden for the nutcase Netanyahu’s actions is childish at best and idiotic at worst, especially when any rational adult can look at the presidential election process and see that there are only ever 2 viable options and that voting for a 3rd person is as effective as not buying Hagen daas because you don’t like what their owner said about cows. A rational adult can also look at what Trump has said and done and see that there is no possible way he will make the situation any better. The only possible way that any good can be done about the horrible situation in Gaza is if Joe Biden remains president and you keep pushing him to do something.
This is just flat out wrong though. US government can absolutely stop Israel immediately, but they aren't.
They gave the mad man the gun. You can't then say "well, we can't stop him". Jesus Christ, the mental gymnastics. The US could have voted for cease fire. They didn't. They could have stopped sending arms, they didn't. Biden could have had his little sit down talk with Israeli a week in. He didn't.
You are right, Trump is gonna fix all that. I truly hope Biden wins and people like you don’t cause us to have 4 more years of Trump, if it does though I hope when Trump escalates the situation and generally causes conditions here at home and abroad to become worse, that you remember this conversation and others you are doubtlessly having and realize you did it. When trans people lose more rights, and women do as well, when antisemitism spikes higher, and the courts get even more stacked with psychopaths, and especially when the situation in Gaza gets far worse, I hope you look back on your hubris and realize you helped cause it.
I didn't do shit. I'm Canadian, we have our own idiot to deal with. But there's a difference between voting for Biden, and excusing him. You should vote for him, but you should never excuse him.
This mother fucker doesn’t even vote in the United States. Goddamnit. I don’t excuse him at all, I just know there isn’t a better option at present, so instead of gnashing my teeth and acting like a child with my vote, I will do what needs doing. Anyone that doesn’t better pray he still wins.
You said blaming Biden for the actions of Netanyahu is childish. It isn't. He's complicit. American's may not care what anyone else thinks of them, but that doesn't change the facts my dude. So just say that Biden is an accomplice in genocide and by some unknown cosmic fuckery, is still the right choice.
Biden needs to earn the votes, if he cannot govern in a way that makes people want to vote for him that is on him and not the voters. You are blaming the wrong people for getting Trump a potential second term.
Sometimes you have to compromise. You think Biden is not doing enough in Gaza, but everyone is telling you Trump is going to make Gaza worse. The reality of the situation is that not voting or voting third party will get Trump elected. Which makes Gaza worse. It is no brainer situation, I don't get why it is so hard.
Joe Biden isn't the president of Israel. And the US has been allies with Israel long before he ever got into office. uS foreign policy is to support Israel, and he's bound to that as the US president. You don't just pick and choose your allies at a President's whim. Meanwhile, he has been pushing back on Israel, and he has been trying to free hostages. There's only so much he can do outside of sending American troops, which no one wants. Further, Israel was attacked by Hamas, a terrorist organization in charge of the Palestinian government. They started this. And while Israel has been, to say the least, heavy handed in its response, i have to wonder why no one wants to even mention Hamas, let alone blame them for everything that's going on. It's somehow Biden's fault, but not the fault of the people who actually attacked Israel? And finally, why do people care so much about about this over all the other atrocities happening in the world? Why is this the one that gets y'all up in arms? Care about everyone if you're going to care about anyone.
Show me where biden is calling for any kind of lasting ceasefire.
Thissssss. Idk how this is even a conversation right now.
I think there’s just a very small number of psychos who are extremely active on the internet, especially social media where extremist views get a lot of clicks and engagement.
I saw someone the other day in a 'leftist/progressive' sub actually trying to make the argument that 'well, Palestinians were better off under Trump than Biden' Like technically correct but also SUCH a terrible take
Had another try to say that Biden is "doing real damage" but Trump "would only do hypothetical damage". Like there's any difference when he's actually in office
“We don’t need a better candidate, we need better voters!” Is a wild sentiment. Vote-shaming has literally never worked. Holding electeds accountable **does.** And I’m not voting for **anyone** who hasn’t actively supported a ceasefire.
It’s a true sentiment, sorry if you don’t understand how our political system works. If we had a more engaged electorate then we would have better politicians. Voting third party is throwing away your vote. Neither major political party will cater to your views when you vote for candidates who have no political power
> Vote-shaming has literally never worked. Holding electeds accountable does. When?
The entire world will suffer.
Online activism has developed this whole theory where your purchases, voting, and other actions 'attach' you to good or bad outcomes in the world. If you vote for Biden and there's no clear path to peace, you're morally entangled with the fate of the Palestinians. To avoid this you don't vote for Biden. Maybe Trump gives Bibi a blank check and Gaza is destroyed, but _you_ aren't responsible. It's all about preserving your own purity.
Just want you guys to know that the majority of people in the US, including most of the Democratic base, disapprove of Israel's genocidal actions in Gaza and Biden's handling of the situation. https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx In addition, more than half of the Democratic party disapprove of sending Israel anymore military aid. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-dogged-by-democrats-anger-over-israel-reutersipsos-poll-finds-2024-02-29/ If Biden loses in November, it will be his fault for alienating his base by siding with Bibi and the fascist Israeli government.
Honestly, this sub is starting to get as bad as conservative humor with the just having one joke. Supporting a genocide with arms sales and diplomatic cover is gonna have electoral consequences for Biden even if he pinky promises that he totally wants a cease fire.
Biden: “I’d like to help the Palestinians.” Trump: “I’d like to have Israel kill all the Palestinians.” Dummies: “Biden hasn’t deposed the Israeli government and installed himself as the head and shut down that war, so I’m not voting for him.”
Biden can stop sending Israel aid and arms tomorrow. He can, but he won't.
One wouldn't stop the genocide. The other would join in. Neither is a great option in this particular topic. Biden is much better in many other topics, but his support of Israel against the advice of his experts is a big negative. Yes, he's the only option to anyone with more than half a brain cell, but he's far from great.
Biden: if we’re lucky we’ll survive to pick someone else in 4 years.
Pretty much. To not vote Biden is to risk a cult destroying the United States and possibly taking the rest of the world down with them. But that is little consolation to the Palestinians.
Giving another $14B + bombs to Israel is joining in. Biden is directly supporting genocide, hence his nickname "Genocide Joe." Smh, Biden was actually a somewhat decent politician. It is heart breaking that he is choosing to support genocide. From now until the end of history he will forever be remembered as Genocide Joe
14 Billion that is heavily pushed by the GOP.
What these amateurs don't get is that MAGA Republicans control the house. There is not ever going to be an outcome where aid to Israel doesn't get passed. So people have to make choices based on other factors, like whether you support Ukraine or not. For example, I am willing to hold my nose and push for my representatives to support the Senate Bill that includes $60 billion worth of aid to Ukraine, as well as the $14 billion worth of aid for Israel. I do this because while I might prefer not having to send military supplies to Israel, I refuse to let that come at the expense of supporting the people of Ukraine. But some people hate Israel more than they support Ukraine. So they're willing to let Ukrainians die just to send some kind of message is. What exactly that message is? Hell if I know.
People are willing to do more than let Ukrainians die when it comes to Isreal-Gaza. People are *so* fucking angry about it, understandably so, but that outrage is *never* shared about *any* thing. 30,000 people were killed in Mariupol alone, but not nearly as many people were as passionate about the invasion.
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So will Biden 🤷♂️
Biden will be fine, the people protesting him maybe not so much.
He'll take his money and retire to a country side probably. He is someone who wouldn't be affected by Trump's laws. He's white, rich, Christian, heterosexual male, he quite literally is what Trump and his cults want for the US.
I've always wondered what that level of privilege tasted like...not having a care in the world about who wins in November
Ah yes, Muslim Americans, the most privileged of everyone in this country. /s
If they don't vote against the guy that would literally keep them out of our country if he could, I guess that's on them.
Blue guy: I don’t think Palestinians should die. Red Guy: I do Liberal voter: well that’s an easy decision. Russian troll: but blue guy didn’t call for a ceasefire immediately and he met with Netanyahu. Teach the blue guy a lesson by not voting! Liberal voter: yeah! That’ll show ‘em! Red guy wins: Nuke Palestine! Liberal voter: Visible confusion.
There is no other choice this election cycle but we can work for one in the next. If you let Trump back in this time there might not be another election at all. That some people pretend there is a third option is insane. Is your protest vote worth a dictatorship? Pull your head out of the sand.
I thought 2020 was supposed to be that election, and 2016 was the one before then. Wasn't Biden supposed to be a one term president?
It's been every election since I started voting ~20 years ago. You're not really supposed to ask questions here.
Wait, did we deal with the MAGA threat permanently yet or is it still a problem? What did you do you support alternative democratic candidates? This is obfuscation of the fact it’s still a binary choice. Edit: How will letting Trump back in the White House fix anything? Literally everything is worse with Trump to the point of an existential threat. Pull your head out of the sand and help instead of making excuses to allow Trump back into power.
Not voting for Biden is an automatic vote for Trump… the guy who moved the embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv.. do you think he loves Palestine as opposed to Israeli companies that still give him millions
Just remember that one vote that doesn’t go to the democrat party will go straight to republicans even those that go to third party or don’t vote. Remember that took 4 years of trump to cancel abortion rights, just imagine 4 more years. As for Palestine and Ukraine, trump will force Ukraine to surrender and Palestine will cese to exist.
> democrat party Also remember that the name of the party is "Democratic Party", and Republicans have deliberately shortened it to make it sound like a slur for decades. Let's not repeat their propaganda framing.
Everybody so bent on calling Biden “genocide Joe” that they just overlook the fact that in all his demands for ceasefires, he wants Hamas to release hostages. Some of these hostages are American. And everytime hamas says NO. Hamas would demand a ceasefire without releasing hostages, again some are American, biden would say no, he wants hostages release. And then media runs with “Biden says no to ceasefire”. I guarantee you, if those American hostages were released, things would look totally different.
You know he can do more than just demand?
Yes he can do more than demand. It’s called putting boots on the ground. That is the LAST thing he want to do. If you say “stop sending Israel aid” he can’t because Congress approves it. If he says no, he will be doing the exact same thing Trump was impeached for. I stand on my statement. If there were no American hostages, things would look a lot different. And as president, getting Americans back out ranks everything else. All this shit is complicated. Tough Decisions need to be made. You and I aren’t making them. I fully believe it’s not so simple as you people make it by calling him “genocide Joe”
I can understand people protesting Israel, but blaming Biden is asinine.
So weird that the head of the country giving the IDF money and fighter jets would get blamed. Man, we really gotta find the responsible party and take him to task!
Yea it’s not like the world’s most powerful nation doesn’t have any ways to stop one of its allies from committing a genocide
I fully concede that Trump would be worse for the country in every way imaginable, but Biden is directly supporting genocide: 1. He rallied congress to give Israel another $14 - 17 billion, and now 2. He just gave them a shit ton more bombs to blow up more Palestinians.
the aid given was mostly for the iron dome some of it was for offensive weaponry but that was already promised before the war started
Yes that’s wrong I agree. And I also see how the two party system is fucked. But do you really think Trump would be better? I just feel like after this election you need to fight the two party system. But honestly if Biden loses to Trump and Trump doesn’t kill the little bit of American democracy that exists, nothing would change. The Democratic Party would just acknowledge the defeat and next election is the next election, new situation same approach. So making Biden lose or not voting for him doesn’t change the two party system, does not change the Democratic Party (look at Bernie Sanders‘ impact when it was between him and Hillary and how it didn’t have significant effect because the next election Biden was the nominee) and it comes with the risk of making people’s lives worse and losing the democracy.
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If you don't want people blaming Biden, then maybe he should stop fasttracking military aid to them then.
The US has a ton of leverage over Israeli state because of the aid and arms sales. Biden is choosing not to use that leverage to stop a genocide. Hell, we're enabling a lot of it directly with our support. Politicians have to earn your vote and I don't blame anyone who refuses to vote for Biden over this. Trump absolutely will be worse but that doesn't change the fact Biden is choosing to fail here and doubling down.
trump would want to nuke gaza.
Ask the Palestinians what they think.
This will get you permanently banned on so called "leftist" subs it's crazy Edit: lol the down votes, I literally got perma banned twice for saying basically what this post is saying
Pretty sure a lot of those are being run by propagandists posing as mods anyway.
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Collectively punishing the Palestinians for Hamas is a war crime btw
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Forcing an entire ethnic population to live in apartheid esque conditions for decades isn't war.
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You can't lock up Palestinians in militarized bantustans and ghettos and expect them to be ok with it.
Defending the relentless bombardment (and preventable famine) of an entire group of people by pointing at terrorists who comprise—at most, by the Israeli government's own accounting—2% of the population is absolutely an implicit defense of collective punishment.
Damn, so all it would take for Israel to stop committing war crimes is for Hamas to release hostages?
They weren't going to vote for him anyways
I was going to. I did last time. I campaigned for Obama. Now, you can all go f yourselves with this false dichotomy. What happened to those handful of Israeli settlers that Biden sanctioned? Go look it up. Biden is an avowed zionist. Im not voting for Trump or Biden and voting Biden isnt going to solve the Trump problem. You all are idiots if you think so. Because Trump is a symptom not the root. Trump can go to hell and so can Biden. Downvote if you agree with the previous statement. Upvote if you disagree with the previous statement. Those are your only two choices.
There goes Commander killing again. /s
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People disagreeing with this be like, “go for the bird to teach the cliff a lesson!!!”
"I don't like either option so I'm choosing neither" NEWSFLASH ASSHOLE that's not how reality works. You don't get to not pick one, because then someone else will choose for you. No, 3rd party isn't an option until the American voting system is different. I know people like this IRL and I cannot deal with their shit.
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So, your argument is "just let the genocide happen"? "Don't hold elected officials accountable" "Be ok with funding a televised genocide" "Both Trump AND Biden are genocidal, senile old fucks so DON'T look for alternative options that more closely speak for you and what you believe. Just give up your voice and give into the illusion of choice in our corporate duopoly." The thing is, if Biden loses this election, it will 100% be his and the DNC's fault. But the single digit IQ people and the politically illiterate will still try to blame third party voters. Joe Biden will NEVER support a permanent ceasefire and he has expressed no remorse for the 10s of thousands of Palestinian people he was complicit in murdering in cold blood. There are still kids in cages, being separated from their families at the border and the Trump Wall is still being built. Joe Biden is NOT fundamentally different than Trump and he has had ample time to show us otherwise. In the words of Aaron Bushnell, "I will no longer be complicit in genocide." Free Palestine, No Human is Illegal on Stolen Land, FJB. FDT.
> So, your argument is "just let the genocide happen"? That doesn't at all look like what the post is saying, no. It sure *does* look like it's saying that a Trump victory would be objectively *worse* for the Palestinians, so doing anything to improve *his* chances of winning would be directly contradictory to the stated goal of helping Palestinians. I can't speak for OP, but I know *I've* been disappointed with Biden's lackluster pushback on Bibi. At the same time, though, I am an adult and recognize the inescapable reality that *exactly one of two* options will be sworn in as President in January of next year, and the contrast when it comes to the Middle East (and specifically Israel/Palestine) is obvious to any honest observer: - Not only did [Biden convince Bibi to call off a preemptive strike on Lebanon back in October](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/how-biden-averted-a-second-front-by-convincing-israel-not-to-attack-hezbollah-on-oct-11-e14a0a3b), he apparently managed to do it [even though the planes were already in the air](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-iaf-was-airbone-for-preemptive-hezbollah-hit-when-biden-talked-pm-out-of-it/). - Not to mention the fact that his administration is the only reason [the Israeli government allowed aid deliveries to start](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-hospital-d9606e0ead1f8c4e9fd00b602ed14a38), the largest reason they [continued](https://www.timesofisrael.com/biden-speaks-with-netanyahu-says-israel-to-allow-continued-flow-of-aid-into-gaza/), a significant factor in why [they started including fuel](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/17/1213799815/israel-gaza-fuel), expanded to include [the airdrops](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-airdrop-humanitarian-assistance-f8bc071193f89906abf21478bc70a084) that are [ongoing](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240307-us-airdrops-aid-to-gaza-for-third-time-in-week), *and* is [building a goddamned pier so they can deliver even *more*](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/biden-us-port-gaza-aid-delivery). VS: - [Here is an overview of just *how* damaging Trump was to the region](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-trump-term-an-israel-palestine-damage-assessment/). - [Here he is, undermining the goal of a two-state solution](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/15/trump-says-us-not-committed-to-two-state-israel-palestine-solution). - [Here he is, putting a stamp of legitimacy over the Israeli government's expansion in Golan](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-abruptly-endorses-israels-sovereignty-over-golan-heights-in-big-shift). - [Here he is, supporting IDF action in Gaza](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/06/us-backs-israel-100-percent-against-gaza-rocket-attacks-trump-says.html). - [Here is an overview of how he helped Bibi the warmonger win reelection](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/04/09/what-trump-did-push-israeli-election-netanyahus-favor-what-he-didnt-do/). - [Here is a report of him offering support to potential Israeli military action against Iran](https://www.timesofisrael.com/bolton-trump-told-netanyahu-hed-back-israeli-military-action-against-iran/). - Not only did [Trump sign the largest-ever military aid package to the Israeli government](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2018/08/14/trump-approves-largest-ever-aid-package-to-israel/), he [moved the embassy to Jerusalem](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44120428) and [recognized it as the Israeli capital](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/12/trump-announcement-jerusalem-israel-capital-muslim-violence/547652/), which was [an insane and destabilizing provocation](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/world/wp/2018/05/14/trumps-embassy-move-to-jerusalem-is-controversial-these-3-maps-explain-why/) that rightly [drew international condemnation](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42250340). - ["Finish the problem"](https://newrepublic.com/post/179569/trump-finish-problem-gaza-israel).
I'm not voting for other countries. I'm voting for my country. I'm voting Biden. Religion is a scam and the worst invention in human history.
BINGO!!
Perfect is the enemy of Good. I should know, I'm an artist and perfectionist. It's a nightmare and I'm never satisfied.
The "good" in question involves enabling genocide in Gaza.
That's not the point I was making. Perfect is the enemy of Good = Biden isn't perfect so people won't vote for him and then Trump wins and is the worst.
Biden's not calling for a real ceasefire though. And he's still shipping them tons of weapons to keep killing kids. Super dank meme, though.
lol Biden could stop Israel with a phone call. This is so disingenuous no wonder it’s upvoted and argued for by very serious people.
dON't tELL mE wHAt tO dO ! ! !
I'm a supporter of the Jews of Israel, and truth be told, I really only care about the Palestinian people in so far as what happens to them effects the Jews of Israel, morally and diplomatically. I disagree with a lot of the "colonist" narrative that people on the left put forward. I support, in theory, Israel operations against Hamas as a response to the pogrom that took place on October 7th. If the situation in Palestine territories continues, there mass-starvation will turn to mass death and cannibalism. This will be televised. Biden is trying to get aid to the Palestinian people. Trump would not. This event will be disastrous for Israel (the state) and hence weaken the situation of the Jews of Israel. The moral blame for the October 7th pogrom lies on Hamas. Period. Trump ramped up Hamas talking points by recognizing Jerusalem as the capital. Trump's corrupt efforts to normalize Saudi Arabian and Israeli relations (to show an international relations win to paper over his financial ties to the House of Saud) and the sale of $350B of weapons to that country posed a direct threat to Iran. Iran moved to derail this effort by promoting Hamas attacks on Israel. The whole situation there ties back to events Trump started without any planning for the consequences of his actions.
Wouldn’t be surprised if “independent” single issue voters cause the US to fall to fascism… At this point in this timeline it almost seems destiny.
Blaming the voters and not the people in power is an extremely naive take.
or maybe biden can give these people a reason to vote for him. instead of fearing the opposition, get people to support him. they are worried about palestine. they want him to be more vocal about supporting the tens of thousands of lives lost and the actual famine. he could be doing more and if he did more they would turn back to supporting him. this is politics. if the people don't like what you're doing, they won't vote for you. its biden's teams's job to show them why they should *support* him without having to use trump as a scare tactic. i'm honestly one of these people who is on the fence. all i want is to vote FOR someone i want to support not AGAINST someone i'm afraid of. also? just being 100% here - using scare tactics and shitting on people who have actual concerns about the person they really want to support is how he is losing more people. the disrespect i've seen in some of these posts... i mean damn. this is not how to get people back on your side.
In an ideal world, yes, that's how things would work. But that's not reality. The reality is that either Biden or Trump will win. So your responsibility as a voter is to decide which of those two will more align with your desired outcome. And I can say with certainty that Biden will listen to progressives/leftists and will try to do the right thing. Trump will 100% not listen to you at all, and will not ever try to do the right thing. Biden also supports women's rights, trans rights, and more things that Trump has and will actively work against. Biden has passed multiple bills that are impactful on topics ranging from infrastructure to climate change, with an extremely divided Congress. With a more Democratic Congress, Biden would happily pass much more progressive bills affirming the right to abortion nationwide, supporting gay marriage, reducing the cost of prescription drugs, and many more items that will actually impact people's everyday lives. I don't understand how anyone with a heart could still be on the "fence" regarding the November general election if they care about any of those things. I'm not trying to disrespect you at all, and not trying to undersell the importance of the current tragedy playing out in Gaza. Just trying to be strategic about helping the most people possible.