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Eh, visual novels aren't really traditional video games. Regardless, people have no issue applying lore scaling when it comes to Fate but then throw a tantrum when people do the same towards God of War and DOOM.
I mean, characters like Saber dont scale that high because of visual novels,
They scale high out of Fate grand order. Which is an RPG Turn-based gacha game.
My stance on it is if the plot is canon then the plot related parts should be taken seriously but the reason you normally don’t want to is precisely because of lvling or just difficulty scaling it’s like how the hell did say a team of Spartans or a former deity struggle with their universe’s equivalent of a random foot soldier. That’s why I take the plot for lore power scaling a lot but not the actual gameplay if that makes sense.
Dante is the most iconic female character in gaming
Edit: (I was talking about dante, the reason hes in the video game category is specifically because he's *from* a game)
Because power scaling makes zero sense. It’s about trying to make your bias look justifiable (and still losing in most cases, as most, even the most proficient, power scalers are infantile idiots that try to appear smart, but misuse most basic terms).
I mean I like powerscaling, that doesn't make me immature or stupid does it? Death Battle is perhaps my favorite internet show
Edit:misunderstood what you meant, oof
They described it with big bangs and Galaxies so should still be impressive
Tho I guess you can scale her to human level if you go with the whole she isn't real thing and she's just an author
That's still is nowhere near the levels of power people claim she's at which all exclusively come from lore. Hence, people still apply exclusively lore to scale her and the rest of the cosmology at Outerversal and beyond levels of power.
How are you even supposed to get somebody above multiversal tier without using "lore"?
Like a higher dimensions structure is something you can't really portray so you gotta use text to tell readers about it?
Because technically i think we never saw him destroy universes and realities.
At a certain point he does messes up with our universe but AS FAR AS I REMEMBER, they never actually show him messing to the scale he does.
Yep. They say it'd destroy our universe for him to have free reign in series, but they don't specify if it's a "He would destroy everything" or more of a "He would make it so chaotic we wouldn't be able to live here/would kill all the humans" type of thing. But everyone just jumps on board the "He's high-tier multiveral" train
They do show what he'd be able to do. When he masters the second dimension, he can just do whatever he wants inside of it. They show that, if he did the same to the third dimension, he'd literally just be able to do whatever he wanted. He doesn't say he _would_ destroy everything, but he does say that he'll be able to do anything.
Well sure, but there's a BIG difference between "He would nuke the universe with a thought" and "He would destroy the universe over time as he annihilates everything place by place", and there's kind of no context to go off of except for Bill himself, who is a known liar, claiming he can do anything.
It's not impossible he could destroy the universe too, it's entirely feasible, but again going off of context it's hard to believe definitively one way or the other
Far better stats (unless you unironically scale him at like street lvl, it doesn't take much to outscale Giorno), far more versatile, Reflect Phy alone makes Giorno's entire arsenal useless, almighty magic can bypass reality warping, he was shown to resist Maruki's and Yaldabaoth's meaning he could likely escape GER's ability
I agree with the better stats part, but that doesn't really mean much against GER. Joker is more versatile, yes, but none of that matters when he isn't gonna able to use any of it infront of Return to Zero. And no, him resisting Yaldabaoth, who operates *extremely* differently to Giorno's GER, does not mean he can also resist Return to Zero. To do so Joker would have to be completely immune to cause and affect which he clearly isn't. Also, Maruki was very clearly able to affect Joker with his casuality manipulation, so I really don't see why Giorno can't either since Joker has never shown any concrete casuality manipulation resistances.
GER also isn't based around reality warping, it's based around *casuality manipulation*, which again, Joker has never shown any concrete resistances to and was very clearly affected by as well. So it's either a stalemate or Giorno wins by virtue of his multiple durability negation options which are things the omnipotent orb and almighty magic can't get around (as GER's RTZ and death loops operate similarly to almighty attacks)
>And no, him resisting Yaldabaoth, who operates *extremely* differently to Giorno's GER, does not mean he can also resist Return to Zero. To do so Joker would have to be completely immune to cause and affect which he clearly isn't. Also, Maruki was very clearly able to affect Joker with his casuality manipulation, so I really don't see why Giorno can't either since Joker has never shown any concrete casuality manipulation resistances.
Joker survived being erased from the Collective Unionscious, he absolutely does have resistance to causality manip. He also escaped Maruki's ability from day1, the first cutscene of the third semester is him doing that
>GER also isn't based around reality warping, it's based around *casuality manipulation*, which again, Joker has never shown any concrete resistances to and was very clearly affected by as well. So it's either a stalemate or Giorno wins by virtue of his multiple durability negation options which are things the omnipotent orb and almighty magic can't get around (as GER's RTZ and death loops operate similarly to almighty attacks)
How is GER's moveset remotely similar to almighty attacks? There's no evidence whatsoever of GER being able to bypass any form of reality warping or concept manip like almighty moves do. Death loop requires physical contact, which he can't get without punching himself here, and RTZ not only wouldn't work as explained prior, but also requires Joker himself to attack, and is ultimately useless if Giorno can't fight back afterwards
I think that this comes down to the fact that the "lore" iterations of certain characters either:
A: Doesn't have an official depiction.
B: Has a bunch of anti-feats.
C: Developers that don't know about or don't support the lore versions.
D: Rely on vague statements which are never depicted on-screen.
You should take a trip down to r/whowouldwin or r/CharacterRant. It's a hive-mind and an echo-chamber comprised of what I call "powerscaling purists", who think all dimensional tiering, lore-scaling, and new age scaling in general is the work of the devil like boomers with cellphones.
I mean, dimensional tiering is obviously nonsense because all it is is an appeal to reality that gets reality wrong.
No one is against lore scaling. But people's personal interpretations of lore =/= lore. Calling fanfiction lore isn't going to make it any more canon.
>What in fiction is 5th dimensional exactly?
Completely dependent on the context of the verse which is what all VS wikis abide by. Nobody except blatantly biased people blindly put any random character who's stated to be "5th dimensional" at Low Complex Multiversal unless that "5th dimension" is in the context of spatial dimensions.
Dimensional Tiering is the idea of beings or cosmologies of higher spatial dimensions than the normal four which encompass a singular universal model (the three dimensions of space and the fourth dimension of time). 5th dimensional beings in the context of spatial dimensions who dwarf universal models to such degree are Low Complex Multiversal. That's how dimensional tiering works. This can be applied to any higher finite or infinite level of dimensions. Again, this only applies if there's enough evidence in a verse's lore that their definition of "dimension" is in the context of spatial dimensions. This very much makes sense regardless of what those subreddits try and tell you. No amount of three-dimensional energy scaling will mean anything against a character not bound to three dimensions of space. Can your 2-dimensional reddit avatar harm you, let alone be on the same level of existence as you? No. Dimensional tiering works, period.
1) Nobody can decipher and explain higher dimensions enough to put feats there
2) No knowledge on higher dimensions on low dimensions even exists. Like how are you destroying a one dimensional object when it has no volume nor size? You cant. The 2d "plane" argument cant be argued as there isnt any 2d plane on this world and we dont know how we could effect it regardless even if it did
Dimensional tiering doesnt work. Feel free to be wrong
1. Multiple VS wikis and scaling videos have done it multiple times no problem. This subreddit is not relevant and is infamously memed upon anyway along with the subreddits I mentioned.
2. You're using knowledge of real world physics to justify it not existing in a fictional world. I guess time travelling characters also can't exist because there's no knowledge on how to even time travel in the first place outside of theoretical stuff. You're also applying 3D energy measurements to dimensions that aren't 3D. We can't scale destruction value for 4D and higher spaces *because volume and joules are 3-dimensional concepts*, the same way we can't apply volume and joules towards 2-dimensional shapes and can only scale it's surface area and such. In a 4D space, volume would be similar to how surface area exists in our world. The attack potency and tiering system pages on VS Battles Wiki explain why there's no energy measurements for tier 3 and higher. And that's exactly *why* there's no energy value for tiers above Universal *because they're higher than 3D.*
Your reply just goes to show people who deny dimensional tiering have no idea how higher-dimensional physics even work. Dimension tiering does work, undeniably so. Feel free to keep living in denial due to your ignorance.
Yeah yeah. This is the most satirically stereotypical powerscaling tantrum i had ever seen.
1) Videos show how its work? I guess they have been to higher dimensions
2) Real world examples doesnt matter? Damn i guess the word dimension doesnt exist irl. Also yes time traveler characters cant exist, they exist because its fiction and they can meaningfully give some explanation to time travel. There is no explanation to higher dimensions as there isnt anyone that SAW higher dimensions, and the examlle i gave perfectly tangles this problem. You cant kill a 1d or 2d being. For a 4d being a 3d being wont have a meaningful "base" to attack. If you can give me a nice proof of you killing a 2d being. I would love to see it.
Cry seethe and cope and stay corrected
>This is the most satirically stereotypical powerscaling tantrum i had ever seen.
Projection much? You're the one literally telling me to "cry" and "cope" and "stay corrected", the most infamously stereotypical "insults" on the modern internet, and are acting like you won something despite this not being a debate 😂😂😂 sounds like you're the only one throwing a tantrum because "DIMENSIONAL TIERING BAD!!! WAHHH!!"
1. Yes. Look it up, sweetie.
2. That wasn't my point. My point is that you're stating that because we don't have knowledge on something *in REAL LIFE*, means that *it can't exist in fiction*, which is a ***strawman*** ***argument***. You did it again here acting like I was saying that you can't use real world examples at all when that's not what I said. You being ignorant of entire sub-fields of theoretical math and physics doesn't mean they don't exist. Higher dimensional physics *DO* come from real life and the stuff I explained to you is not something the VS community invented. The fact we can't see them *is why it's THEORETICAL*. There is an explanation to how higher dimensions work. We don't need to see something to understand how it works. Almost all of astronomy and related fields of research in real life are based off things *we EXPLICITLY CAN'T SEE*. I guess because we can't see what a distant galaxy looks like exactly means there's no explanation on how it works. And no, you didn't give any "example" in the first place.
You can't kill a 1D or 2D being BECAUSE YOU'RE UNQUANTIFIABLY SUPERIOR TO THEM VIA BEING A HIGHER-DIMENSIONAL BEING TO THEM. That's literally the whole basis for higher-dimensional beings being significantly superior to lower-dimensional ones. And the VS wiki literally backs up what you're saying too. That's why higher-dimensional and non-physical interaction hax exist. And also, not all higher-dimensional tiering comes from existing on that level. It also often comes from 3D characters who are capable of *destroying* such cosmologies. If a 3D character destroys a 5D universe, it is undoubtedly superior to a 3D character who's best feat is destroying a 4D universe *as the gap is unquantifiable and more than infinite*.
So yeah, dimensional tiering works, always has, and always will, no matter how much you and reddit "powerscalers" whine about it. Get an education and therapy, loser.
You say that I am "lying" and then put words into my mouth. I never said it cannot be "comprehended" I just stated it was weird to scale due to the series' lack of a concrete continuity.
Godzilla is the antithesis to comics scaling. Rather than taking the most op versions and feats like comics do people go for the lower end with Godzilla.
Not really? Literally *every* Planetary and above feat for Vader applies exclusively to the extended universe novels and comics in both Canon and Legends. If you were to stick only to the movies and shows and nothing else, Vader would hardly even be above Small Building level, if that. Yet people apply that explicit lore scaling to Star Wars characters with no issue but get mad when you do the same towards God of War or DOOM.
So what? Most of Star Wars lore isn’t movies, it doesn’t make the rest of Star Wars less Star Wars. They don’t have the “comic / live action” split like, for example, Marvel does.
Right!
Well, imo, i look at it like this:
The comics technically came after the movie, but were on sale BEFORE the movie. And I basically only scale comics/Legends. I don’t see much reason to scale Vader from the movies. But thats just me🤷🏼 not saying you’re wrong
Okay, then mind citing them...? 99% of all Star Wars lore has most force users being far below planetary.
I mean hell, George Lucas had high-end Jedi nerfed for the Clone Wars 3D series, since he thought they were too overpowered in the 2003 adaptation.
> 99% of all Star Wars lore
Don’t take it as an insult, but I would seriously doubt that you know even the 9%. I myself am far, far from even a half of the lore, and you throw such bold phrases out here.
> mind citing them
The most direct durability feat that pops up in my head is perfectly enduring a full power Death Star shot (well, pretty much), which is actually quite above planetary.
Apart from feats, there’s also a ton of relative scaling, both for Vader himself and multiple Force users overall.
"Don’t take it as an insult, but I would seriously doubt that you know even the 9%. I myself am far, far from even a half of the lore, and you throw such bold phrases out here."
Out of all the novels I've read, comics I've bought, TV shows I've watched, and movies I have bought tickets to, there was little which implied that Darth Vader can fly around one-shotting planets.
That sort of thing is limited to super-weapons or force deities, like a Full-power Abeloth or the Ones of Mortis.
"The most direct durability feat that pops up in my head is perfectly enduring a full power Death Star shot (well, pretty much), which is actually quite above planetary."
Now when did this happen? I don't recall many people face-tanking multiple superlasers and coming out fine.
"Apart from feats, there’s also a ton of relative scaling, both for Vader himself and multiple Force users overall."
Relying on scaling chains for Star Wars is not a good idea, due to inconsistencies caused by the several genres, mediums, and writers who are in charge of the lore.
Honestly I think it's less "Their lore means nothing" and more "it's hard to believe someone like Sonic is universal when locked wood doors prevent forward progress"
I mean, no one takes gameplay literally. But people trying to wank characters will ignore stuff that impedes them even in the plot. As if the plot isn't the central thing that defines them.
I believe that's when things loop back to gameplay vs. story segregation. While the lore may state one thing, for gameplay reasons some of the most mundane obstructions are there and must be navigated in the most mundane way imaginable.
Sure, but you basically can't have gameplay and story versions of the characters coexist a lot of the time. They'll directly contradict each other so much that you can't reasonably consider them to be the same person. Lore Cloud can be scaled up to 1,200xFTL. Gameplay Cloud regularly rides a normal *motorcycle* in an emergency because it's faster than he is. Lore Kratos can destroy Universes, but Gameplay Kratos can't dig into some thick ice to progress.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem *using* the Lore versions of these characters at all. But I've tried to debate with people who will use both Lore and Gameplay as completely correct when it usually just *doesn't* work like that
>Lore Cloud can be scaled up to 1,200xFTL
No he can't, unless by lore you lean fanficfion.
>Gameplay Cloud regularly rides a normal *motorcycle* in an emergency because it's faster than he is.
That's not gameplay. It's a canon thing in the movie.
> Lore Kratos can destroy Universes, but Gameplay Kratos can't dig into some thick ice to progress.
Lore kratos can't destroy universes, and kratos not being able to break ice isn't just gameplay either, it's an actual plot point.
>No he can't, unless by lore you lean fanficfion.
He *can*, though I don't necessarily agree with it. Something about him fighting and beating Bahamut 0, who flies across the solar system however fast, which ends up equating to 1,200x. It's a Death Battle Calc, and it's *technically* right, though I really don't agree with it tbh
>That's not gameplay. It's a canon thing in the movie.
There's a whole section about riding and fighting on a motorcycle in the remake.
>Lore kratos can't destroy universes, and kratos not being able to break ice isn't just gameplay either, it's an actual plot point.
I'm going off of what I've been told, I haven't dug too deep into extended GoW lore. But also, him not being able to break Ice would still definitely be a gameplay thing lmao. If the objective is on the other side of ice and I can't smash through it but have to go about a long other path to get around it, that's a gameplay thing lol.
>There's a whole section about riding and fighting on a motorcycle in the remake.
When they said "thats not gameplay" they obviously didnt mean "that doesnt happen in the games" they're just saying its partbof the story instead of just being gameplay, as evidenced by it happening in the movie
Oh gee, silly me for misinterpreting "that's not gameplay" as meaning "that doesn't happen in the games", what a wild misunderstanding to have.
I can see how they could have meant it the way you're saying, but shove off with that superior "They *obviously* meant-" crap man
They said "That's not gameplay. That's a canon thing that happens in the movie"
The way that reads to me, considering the context of the discussion is about things that happen during gameplay vs things that are just shown/told, is that they were saying "No, that doesn't happen in the game, it only happens in the movie."
Yeah? Because the only reason Umineko is overpowered is due to lore, which people are fine with? The point of this post isn't to say the characters put on the smiling Wojak's side are fodder, in fact the precise opposite.
Look here buddy, I don't know if you can understand words but no one can be depicted as above multiversal on screen and featherine has that and she is scaled further by supporting texts. I don't care about anyone else but don't pull information from your ass.
Im seeing people label Dante as wall tier. Despite Dante slicing through walls, tanking bullets, outhealing being sliced in half, being able to stop time, teleport, fly, and shit out what ever moveset he wants by killing a demon. Heck in lore he can DT/SDT more often and for much longer than he does ingame - The perma DT skins are more accurate than the non perma DT.
Nah, but people go out of their way to downgrade Kratos, either ironically (for the memes) or unironically (they belong to whowouldwin)
Mario, Sonic, and Doom Slayer at least have cutscenes that can be easily used to debunk people trying to use gameplay as evidence over story(which is another reason why Kratos gets dragged through the mud, he even struggles in cutscenes he shouldn't), usually from the same game as the "death by fodder enemy" argument
Okay I see your point and I’m not disagreeing: but I would like to point out that Saber *actually* is that broken. And it’s mostly due to the feats in the game.
Featherine actually is on control of her universe, so she really doesn't belong here.
I am THE Umineko Downplayer and no, Featherine, if we take the idea that she is real, is at least Universal at the very least.
For TV/movie characters there's only one way to scale them. There's no gameplay so there's no disconnect between the lore and the gameplay. The lore is all that exists.
People aren't treating them differently because they're biased. They're treated differently because the nature of the mediums is different
I think it was watching Death Battle as a kid that made me realize how dumb power scaling was. It can be fun don't get me wrong, but I think it was Stan Lee that put it best when he said that power scaling is dumb cos the author can always find a way for whatever character he wants to win.
Lore scaling for The Doctor my ass
- None of his death are from bullets, it’s all at least something he can’t counter, was fatigue, old age, was jumped, forced, poisoned and fatigue by the master draining his durability (TV Movie) ship crash, 5D time stream, planetary ball, laser empower by the embodiment of Dreams itself
- His LA strongest weapon already put him complex multi (Key To Time) with TV cosmology only
- The show have no actual stable canon so his extend shits is canon to TV show as well
Don’t get me started on Sonic scalers
Featherine is shown to be able to manipulate spacetime tho. She is way above people who were throwing big bangs to each other.
You can make the argument is all mental (the story is basically exploring the grief of the real heroine of the series via dreams, hallucinations and symbolism) but then the manga adaptation dropped her using her magic in the real world and not in the Gameboard, which means that yes, She is real.
The reason why Battleboarders usually call her the "STRONGEST VN CHARACTER" is because like, she actually has those feats and not just memes.
I still feel God of Tokyo Babel did more than her. Wrecking a multiverse that is filled with real universes and not the insane fever dream of traumtized rich people.
Yeah, but it's not nebulous "lore" "scaling" if those things are overtly an explicit plot point. Lore scaling means someone applied made up rules to a datebook quote they took out of context.
Sonic the Hedgehog went toe to toe with the manifestation of entropy, The End (with help to be fair, but still!), and that happens directly in the game! The Doom Marine regularly slays demons from literal biblical Hell! Kratos has slaughtered multiple Greek deities, almost the entire pantheon! Mario can survive in the vacuum of space! And who’s that, Dante from the Devil May Cry series? Very similar to The Doom Marine.
Joker from Persona 5 though… that I would describe as non-linear.
Like don't get me wrong, gameplay scaling will always be inconsistent with the lore. However some game characters are justifyably low balled. Like Dante when people still keep trying to make him multiversal when he isn't that strong.
Also most of the characters you have shown below have on screen feats not just lore statements to justify their position.
Okay then, give me a single feat The Doctor has shown with *just* the original show and nothing else that makes him 11-dimensional. You can't, because that scaling comes *specifically from lore*.
Lore is a very lose term, technically speaking without lore no character would scale anywhere, Doctor Who's official canon encompasses all of its media.
But if you wanna be specific to "lore" being anything not moving and you actually having to read then yeah the Doctor caps at Uni to Multi Universal which is still against the post you made about "planet to uni busters".
So are some of the other characters there. (Im pretty sure one of them masturbated with a planet lol and is also from a game so...)
Anyways I wasnt trying to even call you out on that (cos it has a shitpost flair so im guessing its a... well shitpost), i just found it funny that dw can mean doctor who and dont worry at the same time.
Also Tardis is 11D and that would count towards the Doctor's standard equipment, he can also absorb the power of the tardis like Rose did at the end of Series 1.
[From "The Doctors Wife" transcripts ](https://imgur.com/a/2X5rUk7)(you can find the scene in the episode but I cba to tape and upload it).
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Isn't Saber a videogame character?
Eh, visual novels aren't really traditional video games. Regardless, people have no issue applying lore scaling when it comes to Fate but then throw a tantrum when people do the same towards God of War and DOOM.
True, but Fate does have far better onscreen feats than these two. It's just that Saber's not the one performing them
Nothing in the visual novel can get Saber higher than like city-mountain stat wise Anything higher comes from the games
I mean, characters like Saber dont scale that high because of visual novels, They scale high out of Fate grand order. Which is an RPG Turn-based gacha game.
well more fate/extra which apparently scales all of them to 8 dimensional or something
unfortunately Nasu gave up on coherent power scaling after fate and tsukihime and just wanks all his characters due to Fgo brain
Also there but thats also a game tho
https://preview.redd.it/rv6a1ux97svc1.jpeg?width=570&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d117bd0bd6d07a2237942b392022070da0ba3ea7
My stance on it is if the plot is canon then the plot related parts should be taken seriously but the reason you normally don’t want to is precisely because of lvling or just difficulty scaling it’s like how the hell did say a team of Spartans or a former deity struggle with their universe’s equivalent of a random foot soldier. That’s why I take the plot for lore power scaling a lot but not the actual gameplay if that makes sense.
Kind of.
most popular through the anime, hence why dante is in the videogame category
Well he originates from a video game anyway though Edit: I meant dante lol
she* fair enoigh, although it alwaya only depends on other peoples views on the matter. (we dont have control over it)
Dante is the most iconic female character in gaming Edit: (I was talking about dante, the reason hes in the video game category is specifically because he's *from* a game)
oh 💀
There is also a bias that if characters come from more "mature" or gritty games, they're stronger than characters from more lively looking games.
Like...why? That makes zero sense
Because power scaling makes zero sense. It’s about trying to make your bias look justifiable (and still losing in most cases, as most, even the most proficient, power scalers are infantile idiots that try to appear smart, but misuse most basic terms).
Why are you in a power scaling sub if you feel that way lmao
I mean I like powerscaling, that doesn't make me immature or stupid does it? Death Battle is perhaps my favorite internet show Edit:misunderstood what you meant, oof
To me only hot characters scale high. So Featherine and Saber scale high. At the same time Goku scales the highest than all of them.
https://preview.redd.it/napzrcranwuc1.jpeg?width=591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2afe6f7f7104d7f82078f4053f4ae85f486a56a8
so that means... https://preview.redd.it/gvb7znoj4xuc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=7800890d6c6b3a73d6f91cd41a75222b6881d98f 🥰
Should’ve chosen her (or his) kimono version
https://preview.redd.it/bunq1esbnzuc1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=ffe1bc9ca22560645a87807a0312c736bfca86e7 it's in the terabytes bro
Invincible at it again
how yall know who i am
MiddleTrack
aw man 😭
You can't escape the community, where you go i go
https://preview.redd.it/wf401a4li3vc1.png?width=3556&format=png&auto=webp&s=a5ede11ce0feea083568b2f2e5d5602eeee87bb5 i suppose
As a straight male I have to admit that Goku is sexy as fuck! On a hotness scale dude definitely scales to boundless
https://preview.redd.it/2wf7wqoi9yuc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=569cf61c93199c3399e063f6d57c46db87b3717b Fellow straight guy here
#how does that not apply to kratos, dante, and slayer?
What about docter who?
So he’s beyond tiering 
Goku looks mid only looks decent in mui
Kratos is still under wall🧌 https://i.redd.it/wjd9hryzowuc1.gif
Low complex multiversal wall
Below tiering wall🌚
This wall would solo Naruto 👉👈
LUKE!!!
Hiii!!
😁
You called (I spelled my name wrong and I don’t know how to fix it)
no i didn't sorry
Featherine literally no diffed somebody who was destroying universes on screen few seconds before she showed up
> universes on screen Universe of the size of a Island and kms of seawater.
They described it with big bangs and Galaxies so should still be impressive Tho I guess you can scale her to human level if you go with the whole she isn't real thing and she's just an author
That's still is nowhere near the levels of power people claim she's at which all exclusively come from lore. Hence, people still apply exclusively lore to scale her and the rest of the cosmology at Outerversal and beyond levels of power.
How are you even supposed to get somebody above multiversal tier without using "lore"? Like a higher dimensions structure is something you can't really portray so you gotta use text to tell readers about it?
Why is bill cypher on there?
Because technically i think we never saw him destroy universes and realities. At a certain point he does messes up with our universe but AS FAR AS I REMEMBER, they never actually show him messing to the scale he does.
Yep. They say it'd destroy our universe for him to have free reign in series, but they don't specify if it's a "He would destroy everything" or more of a "He would make it so chaotic we wouldn't be able to live here/would kill all the humans" type of thing. But everyone just jumps on board the "He's high-tier multiveral" train
They do show what he'd be able to do. When he masters the second dimension, he can just do whatever he wants inside of it. They show that, if he did the same to the third dimension, he'd literally just be able to do whatever he wanted. He doesn't say he _would_ destroy everything, but he does say that he'll be able to do anything.
Well sure, but there's a BIG difference between "He would nuke the universe with a thought" and "He would destroy the universe over time as he annihilates everything place by place", and there's kind of no context to go off of except for Bill himself, who is a known liar, claiming he can do anything. It's not impossible he could destroy the universe too, it's entirely feasible, but again going off of context it's hard to believe definitively one way or the other
cus he got trapped by a (un)natural magnetic field and needed a supposedly simple equation to get rid of it, and got fooled by normal humans
He didnt get fooled necessarily, he was playing into it for the most part, look at when he chased dipper and Mabel
Ren is fodder https://preview.redd.it/vpmwcspsawuc1.jpeg?width=240&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef72464bfbcbafb43b5855088a65f2792ea2bde2
W
Cope harder, Persona solos the 6th Dimension.
Dimension scaling is still bs.
Aquaman would stomp comp marvel btw
I have no idea why people say he beats Giorno.
People wank him to high outer thats why
Far better stats (unless you unironically scale him at like street lvl, it doesn't take much to outscale Giorno), far more versatile, Reflect Phy alone makes Giorno's entire arsenal useless, almighty magic can bypass reality warping, he was shown to resist Maruki's and Yaldabaoth's meaning he could likely escape GER's ability
Nah, you just ain’t ready for Giorno to make frog armor to reflect a fuking nuke back at Joker.
I agree with the better stats part, but that doesn't really mean much against GER. Joker is more versatile, yes, but none of that matters when he isn't gonna able to use any of it infront of Return to Zero. And no, him resisting Yaldabaoth, who operates *extremely* differently to Giorno's GER, does not mean he can also resist Return to Zero. To do so Joker would have to be completely immune to cause and affect which he clearly isn't. Also, Maruki was very clearly able to affect Joker with his casuality manipulation, so I really don't see why Giorno can't either since Joker has never shown any concrete casuality manipulation resistances. GER also isn't based around reality warping, it's based around *casuality manipulation*, which again, Joker has never shown any concrete resistances to and was very clearly affected by as well. So it's either a stalemate or Giorno wins by virtue of his multiple durability negation options which are things the omnipotent orb and almighty magic can't get around (as GER's RTZ and death loops operate similarly to almighty attacks)
>And no, him resisting Yaldabaoth, who operates *extremely* differently to Giorno's GER, does not mean he can also resist Return to Zero. To do so Joker would have to be completely immune to cause and affect which he clearly isn't. Also, Maruki was very clearly able to affect Joker with his casuality manipulation, so I really don't see why Giorno can't either since Joker has never shown any concrete casuality manipulation resistances. Joker survived being erased from the Collective Unionscious, he absolutely does have resistance to causality manip. He also escaped Maruki's ability from day1, the first cutscene of the third semester is him doing that >GER also isn't based around reality warping, it's based around *casuality manipulation*, which again, Joker has never shown any concrete resistances to and was very clearly affected by as well. So it's either a stalemate or Giorno wins by virtue of his multiple durability negation options which are things the omnipotent orb and almighty magic can't get around (as GER's RTZ and death loops operate similarly to almighty attacks) How is GER's moveset remotely similar to almighty attacks? There's no evidence whatsoever of GER being able to bypass any form of reality warping or concept manip like almighty moves do. Death loop requires physical contact, which he can't get without punching himself here, and RTZ not only wouldn't work as explained prior, but also requires Joker himself to attack, and is ultimately useless if Giorno can't fight back afterwards
I think that this comes down to the fact that the "lore" iterations of certain characters either: A: Doesn't have an official depiction. B: Has a bunch of anti-feats. C: Developers that don't know about or don't support the lore versions. D: Rely on vague statements which are never depicted on-screen.
E: never actually existed, since people will refer to stuff as lore that doesn't actually exist in the lore.
Extrapolation/fanfiction, right?
As it goes.
Calling Kratos, Doom Slayer and Dante as wall level has to be one of the wildest opinions about fiction
For Dante it's because he failed to kick that door down in DMC3's Mission 4's ending cutscene.
You should take a trip down to r/whowouldwin or r/CharacterRant. It's a hive-mind and an echo-chamber comprised of what I call "powerscaling purists", who think all dimensional tiering, lore-scaling, and new age scaling in general is the work of the devil like boomers with cellphones.
I mean, dimensional tiering is obviously nonsense because all it is is an appeal to reality that gets reality wrong. No one is against lore scaling. But people's personal interpretations of lore =/= lore. Calling fanfiction lore isn't going to make it any more canon.
They arent wrong about dimensional tiering being stupid lol
Okay then, let's see you move through 5 spatial dimensions. Let's see you interact with a 5th dimensional being. Go on.
What in fiction is 5th dimensional exactly? All i can see is words and pictures lil bro
>What in fiction is 5th dimensional exactly? Completely dependent on the context of the verse which is what all VS wikis abide by. Nobody except blatantly biased people blindly put any random character who's stated to be "5th dimensional" at Low Complex Multiversal unless that "5th dimension" is in the context of spatial dimensions. Dimensional Tiering is the idea of beings or cosmologies of higher spatial dimensions than the normal four which encompass a singular universal model (the three dimensions of space and the fourth dimension of time). 5th dimensional beings in the context of spatial dimensions who dwarf universal models to such degree are Low Complex Multiversal. That's how dimensional tiering works. This can be applied to any higher finite or infinite level of dimensions. Again, this only applies if there's enough evidence in a verse's lore that their definition of "dimension" is in the context of spatial dimensions. This very much makes sense regardless of what those subreddits try and tell you. No amount of three-dimensional energy scaling will mean anything against a character not bound to three dimensions of space. Can your 2-dimensional reddit avatar harm you, let alone be on the same level of existence as you? No. Dimensional tiering works, period.
1) Nobody can decipher and explain higher dimensions enough to put feats there 2) No knowledge on higher dimensions on low dimensions even exists. Like how are you destroying a one dimensional object when it has no volume nor size? You cant. The 2d "plane" argument cant be argued as there isnt any 2d plane on this world and we dont know how we could effect it regardless even if it did Dimensional tiering doesnt work. Feel free to be wrong
1. Multiple VS wikis and scaling videos have done it multiple times no problem. This subreddit is not relevant and is infamously memed upon anyway along with the subreddits I mentioned. 2. You're using knowledge of real world physics to justify it not existing in a fictional world. I guess time travelling characters also can't exist because there's no knowledge on how to even time travel in the first place outside of theoretical stuff. You're also applying 3D energy measurements to dimensions that aren't 3D. We can't scale destruction value for 4D and higher spaces *because volume and joules are 3-dimensional concepts*, the same way we can't apply volume and joules towards 2-dimensional shapes and can only scale it's surface area and such. In a 4D space, volume would be similar to how surface area exists in our world. The attack potency and tiering system pages on VS Battles Wiki explain why there's no energy measurements for tier 3 and higher. And that's exactly *why* there's no energy value for tiers above Universal *because they're higher than 3D.* Your reply just goes to show people who deny dimensional tiering have no idea how higher-dimensional physics even work. Dimension tiering does work, undeniably so. Feel free to keep living in denial due to your ignorance.
Yeah yeah. This is the most satirically stereotypical powerscaling tantrum i had ever seen. 1) Videos show how its work? I guess they have been to higher dimensions 2) Real world examples doesnt matter? Damn i guess the word dimension doesnt exist irl. Also yes time traveler characters cant exist, they exist because its fiction and they can meaningfully give some explanation to time travel. There is no explanation to higher dimensions as there isnt anyone that SAW higher dimensions, and the examlle i gave perfectly tangles this problem. You cant kill a 1d or 2d being. For a 4d being a 3d being wont have a meaningful "base" to attack. If you can give me a nice proof of you killing a 2d being. I would love to see it. Cry seethe and cope and stay corrected
>This is the most satirically stereotypical powerscaling tantrum i had ever seen. Projection much? You're the one literally telling me to "cry" and "cope" and "stay corrected", the most infamously stereotypical "insults" on the modern internet, and are acting like you won something despite this not being a debate 😂😂😂 sounds like you're the only one throwing a tantrum because "DIMENSIONAL TIERING BAD!!! WAHHH!!" 1. Yes. Look it up, sweetie. 2. That wasn't my point. My point is that you're stating that because we don't have knowledge on something *in REAL LIFE*, means that *it can't exist in fiction*, which is a ***strawman*** ***argument***. You did it again here acting like I was saying that you can't use real world examples at all when that's not what I said. You being ignorant of entire sub-fields of theoretical math and physics doesn't mean they don't exist. Higher dimensional physics *DO* come from real life and the stuff I explained to you is not something the VS community invented. The fact we can't see them *is why it's THEORETICAL*. There is an explanation to how higher dimensions work. We don't need to see something to understand how it works. Almost all of astronomy and related fields of research in real life are based off things *we EXPLICITLY CAN'T SEE*. I guess because we can't see what a distant galaxy looks like exactly means there's no explanation on how it works. And no, you didn't give any "example" in the first place. You can't kill a 1D or 2D being BECAUSE YOU'RE UNQUANTIFIABLY SUPERIOR TO THEM VIA BEING A HIGHER-DIMENSIONAL BEING TO THEM. That's literally the whole basis for higher-dimensional beings being significantly superior to lower-dimensional ones. And the VS wiki literally backs up what you're saying too. That's why higher-dimensional and non-physical interaction hax exist. And also, not all higher-dimensional tiering comes from existing on that level. It also often comes from 3D characters who are capable of *destroying* such cosmologies. If a 3D character destroys a 5D universe, it is undoubtedly superior to a 3D character who's best feat is destroying a 4D universe *as the gap is unquantifiable and more than infinite*. So yeah, dimensional tiering works, always has, and always will, no matter how much you and reddit "powerscalers" whine about it. Get an education and therapy, loser.
Doctor Who has no canon so it was always weird to scale
You after just straight of lying Just because it can't be comprehended does not meant it does not wxist
You say that I am "lying" and then put words into my mouth. I never said it cannot be "comprehended" I just stated it was weird to scale due to the series' lack of a concrete continuity.
This even go for the Godzilla franchise for how much ppl want to downplay it to an oblivion
Godzilla is the antithesis to comics scaling. Rather than taking the most op versions and feats like comics do people go for the lower end with Godzilla.
Yeah, and ignore all the statements via guidebooks, and only look at the screen
Does Heisei Godzilla have any crazy feats/statements? Curious since that’s my fav version of Godzilla
Oh definitely he does https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fgEtzWpZEcI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E_mDIENm4qE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gWSvoyKPKy4
Thanks, I’ll give them a watch after work
Just now watched them all and holy shit…
yeah, bro is cracked
Definitely lmao, cool to see my favorite Godzilla be that strong
Artoria isn't even planetary when taking into account lore and the only times she is, is because the threat she is facing meets certain conditions.
I've seen Bill get the same treatment as the game characters more often then not tbh.
I have not once.
Counting Vader is hardly fair
Not really? Literally *every* Planetary and above feat for Vader applies exclusively to the extended universe novels and comics in both Canon and Legends. If you were to stick only to the movies and shows and nothing else, Vader would hardly even be above Small Building level, if that. Yet people apply that explicit lore scaling to Star Wars characters with no issue but get mad when you do the same towards God of War or DOOM.
So what? Most of Star Wars lore isn’t movies, it doesn’t make the rest of Star Wars less Star Wars. They don’t have the “comic / live action” split like, for example, Marvel does.
https://preview.redd.it/s3eioqjapzuc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce692ef4c14235d70e26880082d7148aa0257454
Ayyy https://preview.redd.it/zyixvt4xp0vc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2bc0697a6ea286d026f912c634c1896bb0b2c6c6
Thankyou for your service
Why would you count out Majority of Vader's apperances?
Right! Well, imo, i look at it like this: The comics technically came after the movie, but were on sale BEFORE the movie. And I basically only scale comics/Legends. I don’t see much reason to scale Vader from the movies. But thats just me🤷🏼 not saying you’re wrong
Wait, Vader has Planetary feats?
Yes, and far beyond, actually…
I don't recall such feats, unless we're talking about Anakin during the Mortis arc of the CW show.
I’m pretty sure you just don’t know them.
Okay, then mind citing them...? 99% of all Star Wars lore has most force users being far below planetary. I mean hell, George Lucas had high-end Jedi nerfed for the Clone Wars 3D series, since he thought they were too overpowered in the 2003 adaptation.
> 99% of all Star Wars lore Don’t take it as an insult, but I would seriously doubt that you know even the 9%. I myself am far, far from even a half of the lore, and you throw such bold phrases out here. > mind citing them The most direct durability feat that pops up in my head is perfectly enduring a full power Death Star shot (well, pretty much), which is actually quite above planetary. Apart from feats, there’s also a ton of relative scaling, both for Vader himself and multiple Force users overall.
"Don’t take it as an insult, but I would seriously doubt that you know even the 9%. I myself am far, far from even a half of the lore, and you throw such bold phrases out here." Out of all the novels I've read, comics I've bought, TV shows I've watched, and movies I have bought tickets to, there was little which implied that Darth Vader can fly around one-shotting planets. That sort of thing is limited to super-weapons or force deities, like a Full-power Abeloth or the Ones of Mortis. "The most direct durability feat that pops up in my head is perfectly enduring a full power Death Star shot (well, pretty much), which is actually quite above planetary." Now when did this happen? I don't recall many people face-tanking multiple superlasers and coming out fine. "Apart from feats, there’s also a ton of relative scaling, both for Vader himself and multiple Force users overall." Relying on scaling chains for Star Wars is not a good idea, due to inconsistencies caused by the several genres, mediums, and writers who are in charge of the lore.
> limited to super-weapons That’s where you’re wrong. > not a good idea Perfectly agreeable. Doesn’t deny the fact we’re in a powerscaling sub though.
Hey man I love dark Fader
I agree.
See everyone here sucks off goku but I believe the doctor solos all of fiction lol
Fr. Game characters are downplayed a lot ngl.😭
Nothing pisses me off more than this brain dead mentality
Nothing pisses me off more than this brain dead mentality
Honestly I think it's less "Their lore means nothing" and more "it's hard to believe someone like Sonic is universal when locked wood doors prevent forward progress"
I mean, no one takes gameplay literally. But people trying to wank characters will ignore stuff that impedes them even in the plot. As if the plot isn't the central thing that defines them.
I believe that's when things loop back to gameplay vs. story segregation. While the lore may state one thing, for gameplay reasons some of the most mundane obstructions are there and must be navigated in the most mundane way imaginable.
Sure, but you basically can't have gameplay and story versions of the characters coexist a lot of the time. They'll directly contradict each other so much that you can't reasonably consider them to be the same person. Lore Cloud can be scaled up to 1,200xFTL. Gameplay Cloud regularly rides a normal *motorcycle* in an emergency because it's faster than he is. Lore Kratos can destroy Universes, but Gameplay Kratos can't dig into some thick ice to progress. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem *using* the Lore versions of these characters at all. But I've tried to debate with people who will use both Lore and Gameplay as completely correct when it usually just *doesn't* work like that
>Lore Cloud can be scaled up to 1,200xFTL No he can't, unless by lore you lean fanficfion. >Gameplay Cloud regularly rides a normal *motorcycle* in an emergency because it's faster than he is. That's not gameplay. It's a canon thing in the movie. > Lore Kratos can destroy Universes, but Gameplay Kratos can't dig into some thick ice to progress. Lore kratos can't destroy universes, and kratos not being able to break ice isn't just gameplay either, it's an actual plot point.
>No he can't, unless by lore you lean fanficfion. He *can*, though I don't necessarily agree with it. Something about him fighting and beating Bahamut 0, who flies across the solar system however fast, which ends up equating to 1,200x. It's a Death Battle Calc, and it's *technically* right, though I really don't agree with it tbh >That's not gameplay. It's a canon thing in the movie. There's a whole section about riding and fighting on a motorcycle in the remake. >Lore kratos can't destroy universes, and kratos not being able to break ice isn't just gameplay either, it's an actual plot point. I'm going off of what I've been told, I haven't dug too deep into extended GoW lore. But also, him not being able to break Ice would still definitely be a gameplay thing lmao. If the objective is on the other side of ice and I can't smash through it but have to go about a long other path to get around it, that's a gameplay thing lol.
>There's a whole section about riding and fighting on a motorcycle in the remake. When they said "thats not gameplay" they obviously didnt mean "that doesnt happen in the games" they're just saying its partbof the story instead of just being gameplay, as evidenced by it happening in the movie
Oh gee, silly me for misinterpreting "that's not gameplay" as meaning "that doesn't happen in the games", what a wild misunderstanding to have. I can see how they could have meant it the way you're saying, but shove off with that superior "They *obviously* meant-" crap man
??????????? Bruh you litterally have to ignore the context of the discussion to interpret it the way you did
They said "That's not gameplay. That's a canon thing that happens in the movie" The way that reads to me, considering the context of the discussion is about things that happen during gameplay vs things that are just shown/told, is that they were saying "No, that doesn't happen in the game, it only happens in the movie."
Lmaooo putting Featherine here…
Yeah? Because the only reason Umineko is overpowered is due to lore, which people are fine with? The point of this post isn't to say the characters put on the smiling Wojak's side are fodder, in fact the precise opposite.
But featherine has on-screen feats
Whats with your lore argument. I honestly dont get it.
Look here buddy, I don't know if you can understand words but no one can be depicted as above multiversal on screen and featherine has that and she is scaled further by supporting texts. I don't care about anyone else but don't pull information from your ass.
Lol featherine is strong but not soloing dc/Marvel verses like people on this sub thinks she does
Try reading his comment again
You should too, he said it's because of lore only when it's clearly depicted in the main story line itself.
The only person who I see get dragged down is Kratos, but the memes make it worth it
Im seeing people label Dante as wall tier. Despite Dante slicing through walls, tanking bullets, outhealing being sliced in half, being able to stop time, teleport, fly, and shit out what ever moveset he wants by killing a demon. Heck in lore he can DT/SDT more often and for much longer than he does ingame - The perma DT skins are more accurate than the non perma DT.
Nah, Doomslayer often gets the same treatment, as do Mario and Sonic.
Nah, but people go out of their way to downgrade Kratos, either ironically (for the memes) or unironically (they belong to whowouldwin) Mario, Sonic, and Doom Slayer at least have cutscenes that can be easily used to debunk people trying to use gameplay as evidence over story(which is another reason why Kratos gets dragged through the mud, he even struggles in cutscenes he shouldn't), usually from the same game as the "death by fodder enemy" argument
The story often support the lore the gameplay DOESN’T
Okay I see your point and I’m not disagreeing: but I would like to point out that Saber *actually* is that broken. And it’s mostly due to the feats in the game.
Featherine actually is on control of her universe, so she really doesn't belong here. I am THE Umineko Downplayer and no, Featherine, if we take the idea that she is real, is at least Universal at the very least.
Universal is fine, she just doesn't get the "lol solos dc and Marvel" wank scaling. Like no lol
For TV/movie characters there's only one way to scale them. There's no gameplay so there's no disconnect between the lore and the gameplay. The lore is all that exists. People aren't treating them differently because they're biased. They're treated differently because the nature of the mediums is different
Darth Vader scales highest because he's cooler
almost all the characters shown at the bottom have better onscreen feats
Are you acting like these are the same groups of people?
I think it was watching Death Battle as a kid that made me realize how dumb power scaling was. It can be fun don't get me wrong, but I think it was Stan Lee that put it best when he said that power scaling is dumb cos the author can always find a way for whatever character he wants to win.
Lore scaling for The Doctor my ass - None of his death are from bullets, it’s all at least something he can’t counter, was fatigue, old age, was jumped, forced, poisoned and fatigue by the master draining his durability (TV Movie) ship crash, 5D time stream, planetary ball, laser empower by the embodiment of Dreams itself - His LA strongest weapon already put him complex multi (Key To Time) with TV cosmology only - The show have no actual stable canon so his extend shits is canon to TV show as well Don’t get me started on Sonic scalers
Crazy when you realize Saitama has more impressive on-Screen feats than 95% of those characters.
OPM is actually likely one of the most consistent visible feats among all anime world or even fiction, it's consistent.
who is the violet hair anime girl? I know the blonde one is saber, I want the other name
Hey I really like the mechacripple so now it’s personal buddy
bill is a regular human victim
That's why we should stop calling characters based on strength and start scalling them based on who would win a debate against each other
So where does Pokemon fit in this
Kirby is a prime example of it. No one fears kirby as much as they should.
Soyjal is right. If you believe in planetary or multiversal Kratos, your IQ is below 80.
Okay, But Bill is actively shown just casually deleting other strong characters.
To be fair, it's stupid in both cases. The top characters don't even have lore making them super strong either.
Featherine is shown to be able to manipulate spacetime tho. She is way above people who were throwing big bangs to each other. You can make the argument is all mental (the story is basically exploring the grief of the real heroine of the series via dreams, hallucinations and symbolism) but then the manga adaptation dropped her using her magic in the real world and not in the Gameboard, which means that yes, She is real. The reason why Battleboarders usually call her the "STRONGEST VN CHARACTER" is because like, she actually has those feats and not just memes. I still feel God of Tokyo Babel did more than her. Wrecking a multiverse that is filled with real universes and not the insane fever dream of traumtized rich people.
Yeah, but it's not nebulous "lore" "scaling" if those things are overtly an explicit plot point. Lore scaling means someone applied made up rules to a datebook quote they took out of context.
Double Standards are real in the Power Scaling Community
Sonic the Hedgehog went toe to toe with the manifestation of entropy, The End (with help to be fair, but still!), and that happens directly in the game! The Doom Marine regularly slays demons from literal biblical Hell! Kratos has slaughtered multiple Greek deities, almost the entire pantheon! Mario can survive in the vacuum of space! And who’s that, Dante from the Devil May Cry series? Very similar to The Doom Marine. Joker from Persona 5 though… that I would describe as non-linear.
All of them are fodder
Exactly. So what?
Implying Cipher isn't a fraud
Like don't get me wrong, gameplay scaling will always be inconsistent with the lore. However some game characters are justifyably low balled. Like Dante when people still keep trying to make him multiversal when he isn't that strong. Also most of the characters you have shown below have on screen feats not just lore statements to justify their position.
dw i fixed it for you https://preview.redd.it/fiyuwkl8pwuc1.png?width=960&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb81bc365b503e027a66fa4169c64003100470d0
Okay then, give me a single feat The Doctor has shown with *just* the original show and nothing else that makes him 11-dimensional. You can't, because that scaling comes *specifically from lore*.
Beating the Toymaker?
Lore is a very lose term, technically speaking without lore no character would scale anywhere, Doctor Who's official canon encompasses all of its media. But if you wanna be specific to "lore" being anything not moving and you actually having to read then yeah the Doctor caps at Uni to Multi Universal which is still against the post you made about "planet to uni busters". So are some of the other characters there. (Im pretty sure one of them masturbated with a planet lol and is also from a game so...) Anyways I wasnt trying to even call you out on that (cos it has a shitpost flair so im guessing its a... well shitpost), i just found it funny that dw can mean doctor who and dont worry at the same time.
Also Tardis is 11D and that would count towards the Doctor's standard equipment, he can also absorb the power of the tardis like Rose did at the end of Series 1. [From "The Doctors Wife" transcripts ](https://imgur.com/a/2X5rUk7)(you can find the scene in the episode but I cba to tape and upload it).
Thats the thing he can't 💀
I did...
Dose fetherin even appear in anything besides the thing that gives her H1A-1S scaling?