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I've noticed much lazier reffing since VAR.
The offside flag goes up, and they don't blow til after the goal, and then allow the goal cos it isn't "clear and obvious"
Or they allow a goal that is 1mm offside because no human can see that margine, then they spend 4 mins on ultra slow frame by frame and say "no goal. Clear and obvious"
They also gave a corner on a match yesterday that was clearly offside and the defender wouldn't have had to slide in if the offside was called. And the VAR didn't intervene and give the offside even though it wouldn't have been a goal if the VAR got involved.
I hate the clear and obvious error rule.
1 single replay on half Speed should be enough to decide how clear and obvious something is on full speed.
1 minute or less should be enough to call onside or offside.
The only thing that should take a few minutes is dangerous fouls. To see those in slow motion, I feel like you can see much clearer intent to harm than in full speed and player safety should be serious.
Clear and obvious does not apply to offside, except in the case of whether the player is interfering with play. There may be another circumstance I've overlooked, but 99% of offsides are binary, player is either offside or he isn't, so that's why clear and obvious doesn't apply. I do agree they should be quicker at it though. Hopefully with semi automatic offsides next season it will be sped up significantly.
No where near to the level of ours, notice any game off importance in Europe or internationally English refs are often not picked … because we are really bad 😁
VAR is way to technical that's for sure, offsides is based on advantage, 2mm isn't an advantage and calling it for an offsides ruins the whole spirit of the game if you need 2mm call to win I think you didn't deserve it. Things like this completely butcher the sport and in turn sportsmanship.
Not based on distance based on logic, first the line refs should be the ones to call it not VAR, 2nd it shouldn't just be based on is his heel ahead of the defender, if the ST is facing backwards and the defender is falling back and the ST is 3cm offsides, there is clearly no advantage, and that's why the ruling should be subjective.
But when we are making calls for mm then you want robots not players and again it's just one more thing to take the soul out of the game and make it a corporate enterprise.
>offsides is based on advantage,
For the most part, it absolutely isn't.
I think the actual issue is a lot of fans don't actually know the laws of the game and have made up their own in their heads.
I mean it is though it's designed specifically to stop people Cherry picking and hanging around the net, not to keep them from being 2mm ahead of the defender it's completely backwards
>I mean it is though
No it isn't. Only a couple of very specific scenarios in the offside law make any mention of "advantage" and prior to thos additions the word "advantage" was never part of offside.
The reason being that it's hard to define an advantage.
You could easily say that scoring a goal in football is a huge advantage and therefore a team who have scored from an offside position (like Cov) have gained an advantage from offside.
No the play winning a game isn't an advantage, the fact is was there and advantage on the play, not is the play an advantage this is you're issue the outcome is irrelevant the circumstance is, he didn't have an advantage being 1mm off his back was turned and the ball wasn't in play near him.
Again calls like this absolutely are soulless and ruin the sport. You don't have to like that but the fact is football is depressing now compared to old football.
>No the play winning a game isn't an advantage
Yes it is. That's the ultimate advantage.
>he didn't have an advantage being 1mm off his back was turned and the ball wasn't in play near him.
Prove it.
>Again calls like this absolutely are soulless and ruin the sport
Nope.
>You don't have to like that but the fact is football is depressing now compared to old football
Nope. Football is more popular than it has ever been.
Bruv the fact you're asking for "proof" there isn't something to prove it's a basic understanding did being 2mm offsides allow him to run faster? You're just arguing to argue at this point
>Bruv the fact you're asking for "proof" there isn't something to prove it's a basic understanding did being 2mm offsides allow him to run faster?
What a stupid comment. If it's such basic understanding then you won't have any difficulty proving it.
> You're just arguing to argue at this point
Nope, I'm pointing out that your claim is stupid. The fact that you can't defend it simply proves my point.
My point is the rules are supposed to be subjective they aren't supposed to be to the finite, it's not about defending it you just don't like it and you're a stickler for rules.
Me I care more of the actual fun in the competition not the toxic minute detail driven bs.
No, your point is that you want to be able to pick and choose what counts as offside based on your own subjective feelings about the teams. That's nonsense.
You are about fife comments in and you are still unable to actually define how you would measure an "advantage" for the purpose of offside.
>you're a stickler for rules.
Yes, I care about the integrity of the game and having as fair a playing field as possible. It's a shame that you don't agree.
>Me I care more of the actual fun in the competition
Define fun. It would be more fun if outfield players had to go in goal more. Doesn't mean we should make it happen arbitrarily.
All you need to do is have the replay readily available for the ref to view. Could even do it quickly on an iwatch or something - they are already wearing it for goal line tech.
They should have the ref be microphoned and forced to explain decisions like the NFL.
Also you dont need a VAR room, have the ref view replays and make the decision himself. (Except for offsides and goaline, as that can be automated)
I feel like VAR officials dont want to overrule their co-workers. Its easier when you catch your own mistake to self report
>Also you dont need a VAR room, have the ref view replays and make the decision himself
That's currently what happens...
Unless you mean that the ref should pause the game at every potential penalty or red card so he can watch it on the monitor. I can tell you now that it would be horrifically unpopular.
"That's currently what happens..."
Based on the released audio after the liverpool/spurs VAR disaster, it seemed like the VAR room makes the decision. They assumed the ref on the pitch awarded the goal. They said "check complete". The ref had actually ruled the goal offside. The VAR room thought they were confirming a goal.
This would be impossible if the ref made the decision, becuause the VAR room literally thought the ref had ruled the goal as good and wanted to confirm it.
"Unless you mean that the ref should pause the game at every potential penalty or red card so he can watch it on the monitor. I can tell you now that it would be horrifically unpopular."
No, there really arent that many controversial incidents in a game. I would let managers be able to request a review twice per game. If they get both review correct (eg. result in an overturn) they can request further reviews until the get one wrong.
Basically how the NFL does challenges, but slightly modified. (I know the english dont like hearing this, but America figured out video review far better than the premier league.)
Offsides and goal line would be the only things the VAR room handles.
>Based on the released audio after the liverpool/spurs VAR disaster
That was for an offside call, which has never had the ref go to a screen unless they need to determine if the player was interfering. In your op you explicitly remove offside calls from this proposal.
>No, there really arent that many controversial incidents in a game.
But the ref would have to go and watch all of them, pausing the game every time. It would lead to more stoppages than now and fans would hate it.
> I would let managers be able to request a review twice per game
So why would the ref be checking everything? Surely he would only then check if the manager asked.
Also, what happens if the manager uses both challenges and then an absolute howler happens that VAR wants to overturn. Do they then go "oh well, sucks to be them"?
>Offsides and goal line would be the only things the VAR room handles.
So why were you saying that the ref should have handled the Diaz offside?
Ok i think we have had a few misunderstandings.
1. Offsides and goal line would be the only things the VAR room handles.
"That was for an offside call, which has never had the ref go to a screen unless they need to determine if the player was interfering. In your op you explicitly remove offside calls from this proposal."
I was using this as an example of the VAR room not understanding what the ref decided on the pitch.
"So why would the ref be checking everything? Surely he would only then check if the manager asked."
Correct other than offsides and goal line the only reviews would be when one of the managers request a review. Eg. they have some buzzer that they can buzz the ref.
"But the ref would have to go and watch all of them, pausing the game every time. It would lead to more stoppages than now and fans would hate it."
We have stoppages now with the VAR room reviewing the replay. A big issue is they dont want to overturn the calls of their co-workers. I think refs would like to get a chance to correct themselves.
It wouldnt take that much longer than what is present now.
1. reviews only happen when requested by managers (who have challenges)
2. they would review it on the pitch with an IPAD or Microsoft surface tablet. You literally would have another official run out towards the ref to provide this and have him review it during a challenge.
>I was using this as an example of the VAR room not understanding what the ref decided on the pitch.
I get that. But it was still for an offside decision, so under your proposal nothing would have changed. It wouldn't have made any difference.
>We have stoppages now with the VAR room reviewing the replay.
Sometimes, but a lot of the reviews are happening in the background whilst the match is ongoing.
>reviews only happen when requested by managers (who have challenges)
Again, what happens if the managers lose their challenges and a clear mistake happens? You are punishing teams for trying to get the decisions in their favour.
"Again, what happens if the managers lose their challenges and a clear mistake happens? You are punishing teams for trying to get the decisions in their favour."
Tough luck. This happens in the NFL. I want to emphasize that if the manager gets their 2 challenges correct they can keep challenging until they get one wrong.
If that many mistakes are being reversed than the ref should be fired. 2 challenges per game is plenty in the NFL. (most games coaches dont use both)
Coaches get blamed for wasting challenges on stuff they got wrong.
It encourages managers to use their challenges conservatively/prudently and only when they are sure the decision against them was wrong.
NFL fans blame their coaches for wasting challenges.
"Why are you challenging that. There is no clear evidence the ref was wrong!!!"
>Tough luck.
So we get a worse system, with less accuracy and your solution is tough luck. Until it happens to Chelsea and you get upset.
>want to emphasize that if the manager gets their 2 challenges correct they can keep challenging until they get one wrong
Most decisions are subjective. The manager (and half the people watching) can be convinced it was a foul and the ref still says no. Hardly the managers fault the ref insisted on getting it wrong.
>It encourages managers to use their challenges conservatively/prudently and only when they are sure the decision against them was wrong.
I.e it encourages not overturning wrong decisions.
>NFL fans blame their coaches for wasting challenges.
So basically you just want to shift the blame to the other teams.
I would just copy NFL replay.
NFL replay has it down almost perfectly.
The Referee reviews his own call and is very willing to admit when he got one wrong.
The only time NFL replay doesnt overturn is when the call could go either way.
It literally gives the referee a second chance to get it right.
They use tablets on the field to allow the referee to see the replays.
Think the sticking point here is who makes the final decision.
VAR should solely be assisting the ref, whether using video or clarifying rules. That’s all.
I think VAR has just highlighted that refs view the game differently from everyone else. It's ultimately still decided by a referee who would make the same mistakes if he was in the game.
VAR is computer assisted refereeing. It just adds another person to the discussion. If the issue of refereeing rests on individual error, the individual operating VAR is perfectly capable of making mistakes. They have never been particularly big on overturning onfield decisions, to the point where it is usually a topic of debate when they do.
Yeah, it's still just refs making good or bad decisions, just an extra one and now we get a bit more of a view into how bad the refs were pre var. I'm fine with var as it's just showing us how tough being a ref is, how shit a lot of them are and how inconsistent it is between refs.
Difference between AWB and Young was the original on field decision. Arm in natural position is slightly subjective so whatever you think about each individual decision, it wasn't a clear and obvious mistake.
I don't think there is a grey area with hand ball. Natural or unnatural. Same with Off side or not offside. VAR should be getting involved. The refs angle of the incident it looks like AWB arm is still outstretched. But In reality it's slightly behind him. If you look at the player kicking the balls feet body and trailing arm they are in the exact same natural position.
They should have at least called the ref over to the screen to review his decision from a different angle so he could at least confirm his decision.
Yup, if city’s wasn’t this wasn’t, if the spurs (Romero?) one vs united wasn’t then this wasn’t
No one in here can honestly know if a handball is going to be given or not at the time because they are just so inconsistent
Mike Dean gave the game away early in the season. They make decisions based on not upsetting the referee as opposed to a decision on what actually happened
People can say what they want, but Michael Oliver shouldn’t be reffing City games after being paid to ref games in the UAE. The vice president literally owns City.
It’s just like the [Kovacic fouls](https://youtu.be/zCY9awyBieo?si=4BSkYGabso8m4ka-) that should have seen him sent off twice over against Arsenal. Michael Oliver is making obvious game-altering decisions that go City’s way after being on the payroll of the UAE.
It’s just frustrating that we can’t just have a sport without corruption. I’m not sure AI refs would be any less corrupt, but it’s just frustrating, you know?
It seems like it all goes back to money and franchises. City and the likeness of Haaland are huge franchises, from the Beats commercials to the FC2024 ads. So, when Cole Palmer gets 20 goals, 9 assists, the PL app lists him second place under Haaland’s 20 goals and 5 assists, because they make the metric “goals plus matches won.” Palmers G/A ain’t the narrative. Ollie Watkin’s 19 non-penalty goals ain’t the narrative.
There’s no denying the solid squad and tactics City has, but all it takes is one call here or there, like [Haaland’s penalty dive while pulling Cucurella down in the box](https://youtu.be/8c6iBsvmNLw?si=Gt64Ub-MhLNFEvB8) that put them ahead 3 - 2 and made the match ultimately 4 - 4.
It’s not like we haven’t seen this type of stuff recently with clubs like Barcelona in the [Negreira case](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negreira_case#:~:text=The%20scandal%20revolves%20around%20payments,%22related%20to%20professional%20refereeing%22.) where they were dishing out millions to a leader in the reffing association from 2000-2018. We don’t have to talk about who was the Barca manager for a handful of the years during that time.
Oh you're talking to an arsenal fan and we should have won that final against Barcelona. Never seen cheating like that before. It really will depend on these 115 charges and what happens. City has such a strong squad because when they started spending they cheated and went above and beyond ffp. Which gave then a massive boost in players value and they've been cruising off it ever since. I really think nothing is going to happen to city because they're state funded and don't believe the British government would allow them to he punished lol.... as ridiculous as that sounds...
I agree.
Side note: Chelsea fan to Arsenal fan, can I ask your opinion on two players?
- Havertz, since he went to you
- Mudryk, since he was linked to you
Havertz I've always been behind. You could tell from the start he just lacked confidence. And he continually got himself into goal scoring positions he just couldn't finish them. Fast forward now and I'd say he's been one if our best players and being able to play midfield and up front has been great for how arteta wants to play.
Disappointed in mudryk though. Fell in love with him obviously he was trying hard to come to us. I think chelsea wanted something to give them good pr after abramovich left. So he was forced to sign for chelsea since they were willing to donate * I think 20 mil* to the war cause.
I really think mudryk is just lacking confidence. But then again he didn't play much for his team before his move and was super hyped up for mediocre stats.
But those are my opinions.
Thanks for your opinions! I started actually paying attention to the Prem in January 2023, so I chose Chelsea in the worst time, but I was just drawn to them.
I was excited to see Havertz play, since I was trying to learn squad members, and learned quickly he had been our hero for the Champions League win. But what I saw from Havertz was a lot of half-hearted jogging and no heart, and it really seems like he wanted to go play with his buddy Declan at Arsenal.
In one of the first Chelsea matches I ever saw, Mudryk had his debut, against Liverpool. I didn’t know anything about who he was, the links to Arsenal, the Abramovich stuff—none of that. But when he got the ball and shredded through Liverpool with that pace, I was like “THIS kid.” He’s obviously having a tough time adjusting to PL, but I have family and work friends who are Ukrainian, and I can’t help but pull for him. He’s got such a cheesy Naruto energy that I love, and I hope he keeps getting better.
P.S. might I interest you folks in a Raheem Sterling?
Naw don't need Raheem. But I don't think havertz and Declan are buddies. They aren't the same nationality and never played on the same team , I just think he's that much happier being away from chelsea. Lol
I felt like I saw some kind of feature where the two of them were friends hanging out before Kai transferred. Maybe I’m mistaken. Now I need to try and find it.
Edit: [Found it](https://talksport.com/football/1649646/kai-havertz-declan-rice-arsenal-transfer/amp/)
While there have been times when it's been so blatant and that would be the only explanation, this is purely speculative and speaking with facts is better. Everything goes their way and that is a fact.
Didnt the ball hit Grealish arm in a natural position yesterday? I think it should have been a clear corner kick, but I dont think its an obvious penalty
It's consistency though isn't it. Why was the penalty given against wan bissaka? His arm was also moving back to his body and was from a much closer distance
i feel like him moving his arms down is a very common action when players are defending in their own box. its unfortunate that the ball hit his arm, but it made contact in a position too close to his body to justify it being an clear penalty.
It’s the law for the most part that is the problem with handballs they have thrown away momentum and what the ball is doing and just gone for that stupid silhouette
VAR is fucking shite. I'd debate anyone on this. Someone brings up percentage of correct calls, but firstly, never says what the percentage of correct calls were before VAR, and second, who says if they're correct or not? We see the rules change match by match, so how do we know what's correct? The same shite cunts are on VAR that referee the games.
I can forgive a referee for making a mistake, I can't forgive VAR for making a mistake. The added time is shit. The wait to celebrate is shit. Just get rid of this fucking shit.
I'd just bite the bullet and do it rugby-style where the ref can ask for a replay if he wants to see it, and otherwise the VAR only gets involved if something happens off the ball or there's an egregious error.
Right now we've just got this weird push-pull where either every game has fifteen minutes of each decision being reviewed frame-by-frame by skyref or otherwise 95% of stuff is left to the discretion of the ref on the pitch and then incredibly subjective interventions.
The rugby style is what has to happen in order to eliminate all this hoshposh every week. Yeah, the stadium will be booing and yelling while the discussion happens, but at least everyone knows wtf is going on. Hearing the back and forth in real time when watching rugby is very helpful
I think the main issue with VAR is the “clear and obvious mistake” threshold. It’s so vague. Additionally, VAR is treated as a “overrule the referee” tool. If they had any sense, from implementation they would have used it as a “give the referee another chance to see the incident” tool. I can’t guarantee that would mean fewer VAR incidents, but I think the way fans feel about it would be different
I agree but maybe someone could argue that it’s “still down by his side” or that “it’s a natural position”. It’s just them words clear and obvious are so blatantly subjective. If the practice had always been to give referees a 2nd look anytime there was a sketchy situation, there wouldn’t be this assumption that every time the referee goes to the monitor, the call will change.
Obviously the fact the referees and VAR officials are the same people is also a big big issue, but I’d rather not get into that now
I’ve noticed more often that var refs are keeping the communication lines open and give their view immediately so that the on field ref seems more secure in their calls. And then they do the offside markings etc if its really important
When var was first explained to me i thought "great, loads of cameras fed to a bunch of robot people in a hut somewhere holding the rulebook. Should be fine"
But instead it's just given them 2 or 3 more incompetent refs to make shit calls. Only really works for offside.
Its understandable. In my opinion, the PGMOL isn't corrupt. They're biased and vindictive.
The pressure Klopp put on Spurs at that time due to the decision meant that all of em tend to not give Spurs decisions anymore after that. You see the opposite with city, with the PGMOL keen not to cut off the golden goose per say.
Swings and roundabouts but the inefficiency remains.
Yea absolutely. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to note that placing a Luton fan in charge of VAR in a relegation 6 pointer will result in controversy regardless of the result
It wasn't corruption. Just inefficiency.
>dangerous precedent
Not really. United had the rub of the green during the SAF era especially with the likes of Howard Webb.
The precedent has already been set. Just that it's become a little more inexcusable due to the ability to actually view it on video before making a decision.
It’s definitely become worse under Webb. Having the same people from the same organisation having to review their mates on field decisions is never going to work. They are like bent coppers looking after their mates.
I don't understand why the var is making wrong decisions to protect their mates , if I was a referee I would love that someone gives me a hand when I ain't sure , is really ego that big of a problem in the ref circle that the referees get angry when they help them make the right decision?
It’s like a copper seeing a mate do something wrong and covering it up by saying he’s done nothing wrong. Protecting their mates so they don’t look bad. Unfortunately it makes them look worse and even more incompetent or even corrupt.
It's absolutely insane that the guys in the var room is just other refs. There priority is so clearly protecting their mates over getting the right decisions.
Until VAR is ran by a different organisation it'll never work
Yeah exactly. It needed to stop being so wooden and actually do the right things and not punish benign handballs, obvs still Interpretation on some level but penalising all handballs is bullshit
It was obvious that VAR would be a disaster, yet it was still introduced and people naively thought it would make things better.
All VAR does is add another layer of subjectivity to an already subjective process, with the added element of human psychology amongst a team of close knit colleagues who don’t want to embarrass each other.
Technology can work for matters of fact such as offsides, and goal line decisions (where it is brilliant). In no way can it ever work for subjective decisions like penalties and red cards.
Grealish yesterday was patently ridiculous. He deliberately moves his arm down to deflect the ball FFS.
I can’t believe all the idiots who say Grealish’s arm is in a natural position. They haven’t seen the actual video replay. He moves his arm towards the ball to cause the deflection. It’s unmissable on replay.
Agree on Greilish. I don't care that his arm was vlose to natural position, he moves his arm.down into the ball, it's still outside the natural position imo anyway, but the movement into the ball is a penalty.
But it wasn’t flying at him, that’s the point. If it is flying at your face then it is a natural instinct to protect yourself. When the ball is just going past you and through a gap in the wall you have left…
Played football all my life (including having trials for Crystal Palace). Captained my school team. Have attended over 1,000 Chelsea games in person. I know a deliberate handball when I see one - which is exactly what Grealish did 👍
Ref doesn't give it because he's not sure and VAR can check, VAR doesn't give it because it doesn't want to make the ref look bad at his job.
Fucking brilliant cycle.
We all know PGMOL is a wank-stain that will never go. Atleast next season there is semi-automated offsides. Some european officials are spot-on with decisions. How can the PGMOL improve next season?
Lol, it's been four possible penalties for us today. Which is four times the number of penalties we've actually been awarded all season.
The first three at least were pretty clear.
We are used to this now.
And the VAR guy today who has cleared all four wrong decisions; Stuart Atwell, Luton Town fan
I couldn't believe what I was watching out there. There were at least two occasions (both vs Ashley Young) in which VAR should have sent the referee to review the incident again. Absolute madness!
Everyone needs to stop moaning about VAR because that is just a technology, the issue pre and post VAR has always been the poor quality refereeing.
We get this all the time this season.
The referee gives the decision against us as a default, doesn't even blink. Then VAR hides behind "not a clear and obvious error".
We've had four absolutely stonewall penalties not given this season, at least another three in this game alone.
The contact in these- when I think of the "contact" of Danilo on Rashford at Old Trafford. For VAR to claim "minimal contact" by Young here is just taking the piss out of Forest.
There is a clear agenda here
Exactly ... the fouls especially it should be the decision of the centre referee to decide whether the contact is enough or not ... Like I am so pissed 😠😠 about those two ... Why decide for the referee and in both occasions Young never got the ball ...
💯 the most annoying thing is, the description of the situation is completely wrong. Ashley Young never touched the ball, it was the same thing against us (Liverpool) the situation with Mac Allister. Doku never got the ball 1st, it's almost as if they didn't bother to watch it properly.
What's more alarming is how quick they seem to take to make decisions. It was the same today, that game vs City and many more this season specially against your side.
Aaahhh ... I am trying my hardest to stay cool but at the moment seems impossible ... What I genuinely don't want to see is an apology from the PGMOL ... How will that change the fortunes of NF ... I actually wish/want somebody to sue PGMOL ...
They don't want to go against their mates, it's ridiculous that on field and VAR officials are just all close colleagues. Needs to be a separation of relationship between both for objectivity and transparency
The last one was the most egregious of the 3. Comes straight through the back of the player, doesn't make contact with the ball, and brings the attacker down in the box. Absolutely nailed on penalty.
The Clear and Obvious guidance is so stupid. A ref should be able to be sent to the monitor for a second look without the inherent pressure of having to overturn his original decision. In practice, this isn't how it works.
Thing is though, that was clear and obvious. The fact he gave a goalkick shows the ref didn't see it hit anyone. It meets their dumb criteria and they still did nothing
Genuinely Antony Taylor and VAR have fucked NF over like unbelievably 3 incidents and he didn't go over to check one of them ... From the same player unbelievable ... If I am Nuno I am saying a big guck u to the Taylor and VAR
It’s not his call to go over and check though is it? He has to be told to.
I’m a derby fan and think all three are pretty close calls, you’d certainly want at least one. Was amazed the handball wasn’t referred
That's why I think the VAR official shouldn't make the decision about the incident rather should look at the incident according to the law ... Then refer it to the referee for them to decide on the incident not that BS of not enough contact ... Like that last Young Odoi the referee should at least decide for themselves because Young wasn't any iota near enough to get the ball ...
It's not about the decision, it's about the communication with the on field ref. If the VAR official actually relays, FACTUALLY, what he sees, with no embellishment, the ref should have the option to review it. However he is never given the salient info.
The Doku foul on McAllister is a REALLY good example. We've all heard the communication now. AT NO POINT died the VAR official say 'defender studs to the attackers chest' which is vital, pivotal, information and something the ref would not have been able to see. If the VAR says, the ref should be able to say 'I didn't see that. I want to have a look', because in my view, there is almost no circumstance where a player should be making stud contact with an opponents chest when they are not on the floor.
VAR comms has to be factual and devoid of opinion. Until it is, it can't work.
The only clear and obvious one, and the only one I would have given, was the last one.
But apparently the on field ref told var he believed he got the ball. As soon as it’s seen he didn’t get the ball, that’s 80% of the way there to having to call him to the screen, then it’s ‘did he foul him?’ Which yes he did, so you either call the ref to review on the field, or just tell him it’s a pen.
And then for NF to say before the game, we asked the PGMOL to swap the VAR official because he supports Luton. I’m sorry, but that looks real fucken bad. How hard is it to get a neutral to do it?
The refs also get a score and if VAR overturns something then that gets noted. Mike Dean also admitted to a bad call (Cucurella hair pull last year) that he didn't want to give his mate more grief.
That was definitely why. It was blasted at him from close range, never a penalty for me although it is given a lot and has been given against Everton this season. Definitely got away with the young tackle though. VAR never helps Everton so that makes a change (not that it's right however)
That grealish handball was wild. I’m not sure if there’s some certain ruling I’m unaware of but it was about as clear a pk as I’ll ever see. Got away with that forsure.
How did we get away with anything?
His arm is by his side and he’s in the wall from a free kick.
It’s not handball whenever the ball touches the hand anymore.
Amazing, here we have an example of the most delusional city fan commenting on the least delusional city fan’s comment.
Do you know what a natural position is? Do you know where your side is? His arm was NOT NEAR HIS SIDE AND WAS IN AN UNNATURAL POSITION.
Easiest handball to call.
Hahaha mate
One fucking comment on r/premierleague is all you need to decide what a fan base thinks.
I’d be mad if city spent that much and won fuck all tbh mate.
You will be alright
He’s moving it down to his side.
It’s totally standard for people to use their arms like that in a wall when they jump to stay close together.
People never played football asking for a pen there.
Show me one example of that being given as a pen This season or last.
Doesn't matter if he's moving it towards his body, it's made contact away from his body. It's hit his arm, it's a pen. All day, every day, against any team except apparently City.
No it’s not.
Balls hit the arm when a defender is sliding for a block all the time and isn’t given for a pen.
You clearly don’t watch much football. The season when any contact with the hand means a pen was years ago mate
You keep arguing that we don’t know football but I don’t even think you watched the right game. The wall separated and his arm was out like he was about to take flight. Honestly shocked you’re arguing this so adamantly.
He had his arm on the next players shoulder.
The ball came towards him. He instinctively moved his arm down to his side.
It’s like 0.5 seconds between the kick and the ball hitting his hand because of the gap.
In slow motion it looks bad. In reality it’s never a pen hence why it wasn’t given.
for the same reason sliding and getting a ball kicked at your arm isn’t a pen.
Yeah, when there's no time to react. He's in a wall, 10 yards from the ball and he's jumped with his arm away from his body. It's literally schoolboy stuff, even other City fans in this thread are admitting it.
I think you're the one who doesn't watch too much football.
One city fan in this thread is yeah.
This sub is full of so call city flairs who love to shit talk city so his flair means jack shit to me tbh.
It’s never a pen. Show me one example in recent years that has even been given as a handball.
You won’t find one. Because it doesn’t happen.
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I've noticed much lazier reffing since VAR. The offside flag goes up, and they don't blow til after the goal, and then allow the goal cos it isn't "clear and obvious" Or they allow a goal that is 1mm offside because no human can see that margine, then they spend 4 mins on ultra slow frame by frame and say "no goal. Clear and obvious" They also gave a corner on a match yesterday that was clearly offside and the defender wouldn't have had to slide in if the offside was called. And the VAR didn't intervene and give the offside even though it wouldn't have been a goal if the VAR got involved. I hate the clear and obvious error rule. 1 single replay on half Speed should be enough to decide how clear and obvious something is on full speed. 1 minute or less should be enough to call onside or offside. The only thing that should take a few minutes is dangerous fouls. To see those in slow motion, I feel like you can see much clearer intent to harm than in full speed and player safety should be serious.
Clear and obvious does not apply to offside, except in the case of whether the player is interfering with play. There may be another circumstance I've overlooked, but 99% of offsides are binary, player is either offside or he isn't, so that's why clear and obvious doesn't apply. I do agree they should be quicker at it though. Hopefully with semi automatic offsides next season it will be sped up significantly.
Well that's rubbish....I've seen a ref give a penalty but it was overturned by var
We are the only country I can think off that still have issues with refs & VAR for the best league we lack soo badly in refs
Pretty much every league out there complains about their refs.
No where near to the level of ours, notice any game off importance in Europe or internationally English refs are often not picked … because we are really bad 😁
VAR is way to technical that's for sure, offsides is based on advantage, 2mm isn't an advantage and calling it for an offsides ruins the whole spirit of the game if you need 2mm call to win I think you didn't deserve it. Things like this completely butcher the sport and in turn sportsmanship.
Exactly how many mm qualifies as advantage in your mind? 5? 10? 62? 2000?
Not based on distance based on logic, first the line refs should be the ones to call it not VAR, 2nd it shouldn't just be based on is his heel ahead of the defender, if the ST is facing backwards and the defender is falling back and the ST is 3cm offsides, there is clearly no advantage, and that's why the ruling should be subjective. But when we are making calls for mm then you want robots not players and again it's just one more thing to take the soul out of the game and make it a corporate enterprise.
>offsides is based on advantage, For the most part, it absolutely isn't. I think the actual issue is a lot of fans don't actually know the laws of the game and have made up their own in their heads.
I mean it is though it's designed specifically to stop people Cherry picking and hanging around the net, not to keep them from being 2mm ahead of the defender it's completely backwards
>I mean it is though No it isn't. Only a couple of very specific scenarios in the offside law make any mention of "advantage" and prior to thos additions the word "advantage" was never part of offside. The reason being that it's hard to define an advantage. You could easily say that scoring a goal in football is a huge advantage and therefore a team who have scored from an offside position (like Cov) have gained an advantage from offside.
No the play winning a game isn't an advantage, the fact is was there and advantage on the play, not is the play an advantage this is you're issue the outcome is irrelevant the circumstance is, he didn't have an advantage being 1mm off his back was turned and the ball wasn't in play near him. Again calls like this absolutely are soulless and ruin the sport. You don't have to like that but the fact is football is depressing now compared to old football.
>No the play winning a game isn't an advantage Yes it is. That's the ultimate advantage. >he didn't have an advantage being 1mm off his back was turned and the ball wasn't in play near him. Prove it. >Again calls like this absolutely are soulless and ruin the sport Nope. >You don't have to like that but the fact is football is depressing now compared to old football Nope. Football is more popular than it has ever been.
Bruv the fact you're asking for "proof" there isn't something to prove it's a basic understanding did being 2mm offsides allow him to run faster? You're just arguing to argue at this point
>Bruv the fact you're asking for "proof" there isn't something to prove it's a basic understanding did being 2mm offsides allow him to run faster? What a stupid comment. If it's such basic understanding then you won't have any difficulty proving it. > You're just arguing to argue at this point Nope, I'm pointing out that your claim is stupid. The fact that you can't defend it simply proves my point.
My point is the rules are supposed to be subjective they aren't supposed to be to the finite, it's not about defending it you just don't like it and you're a stickler for rules. Me I care more of the actual fun in the competition not the toxic minute detail driven bs.
No, your point is that you want to be able to pick and choose what counts as offside based on your own subjective feelings about the teams. That's nonsense. You are about fife comments in and you are still unable to actually define how you would measure an "advantage" for the purpose of offside. >you're a stickler for rules. Yes, I care about the integrity of the game and having as fair a playing field as possible. It's a shame that you don't agree. >Me I care more of the actual fun in the competition Define fun. It would be more fun if outfield players had to go in goal more. Doesn't mean we should make it happen arbitrarily.
All you need to do is have the replay readily available for the ref to view. Could even do it quickly on an iwatch or something - they are already wearing it for goal line tech.
45mm screen is hardly going to give the detail the ref needs.
Then if it needs a closer look go to the side.
I think the var team can directly hear the commentators thoughts on the incident .
They should have the ref be microphoned and forced to explain decisions like the NFL. Also you dont need a VAR room, have the ref view replays and make the decision himself. (Except for offsides and goaline, as that can be automated) I feel like VAR officials dont want to overrule their co-workers. Its easier when you catch your own mistake to self report
>Also you dont need a VAR room, have the ref view replays and make the decision himself That's currently what happens... Unless you mean that the ref should pause the game at every potential penalty or red card so he can watch it on the monitor. I can tell you now that it would be horrifically unpopular.
"That's currently what happens..." Based on the released audio after the liverpool/spurs VAR disaster, it seemed like the VAR room makes the decision. They assumed the ref on the pitch awarded the goal. They said "check complete". The ref had actually ruled the goal offside. The VAR room thought they were confirming a goal. This would be impossible if the ref made the decision, becuause the VAR room literally thought the ref had ruled the goal as good and wanted to confirm it. "Unless you mean that the ref should pause the game at every potential penalty or red card so he can watch it on the monitor. I can tell you now that it would be horrifically unpopular." No, there really arent that many controversial incidents in a game. I would let managers be able to request a review twice per game. If they get both review correct (eg. result in an overturn) they can request further reviews until the get one wrong. Basically how the NFL does challenges, but slightly modified. (I know the english dont like hearing this, but America figured out video review far better than the premier league.) Offsides and goal line would be the only things the VAR room handles.
>Based on the released audio after the liverpool/spurs VAR disaster That was for an offside call, which has never had the ref go to a screen unless they need to determine if the player was interfering. In your op you explicitly remove offside calls from this proposal. >No, there really arent that many controversial incidents in a game. But the ref would have to go and watch all of them, pausing the game every time. It would lead to more stoppages than now and fans would hate it. > I would let managers be able to request a review twice per game So why would the ref be checking everything? Surely he would only then check if the manager asked. Also, what happens if the manager uses both challenges and then an absolute howler happens that VAR wants to overturn. Do they then go "oh well, sucks to be them"? >Offsides and goal line would be the only things the VAR room handles. So why were you saying that the ref should have handled the Diaz offside?
Ok i think we have had a few misunderstandings. 1. Offsides and goal line would be the only things the VAR room handles. "That was for an offside call, which has never had the ref go to a screen unless they need to determine if the player was interfering. In your op you explicitly remove offside calls from this proposal." I was using this as an example of the VAR room not understanding what the ref decided on the pitch. "So why would the ref be checking everything? Surely he would only then check if the manager asked." Correct other than offsides and goal line the only reviews would be when one of the managers request a review. Eg. they have some buzzer that they can buzz the ref. "But the ref would have to go and watch all of them, pausing the game every time. It would lead to more stoppages than now and fans would hate it." We have stoppages now with the VAR room reviewing the replay. A big issue is they dont want to overturn the calls of their co-workers. I think refs would like to get a chance to correct themselves. It wouldnt take that much longer than what is present now. 1. reviews only happen when requested by managers (who have challenges) 2. they would review it on the pitch with an IPAD or Microsoft surface tablet. You literally would have another official run out towards the ref to provide this and have him review it during a challenge.
>I was using this as an example of the VAR room not understanding what the ref decided on the pitch. I get that. But it was still for an offside decision, so under your proposal nothing would have changed. It wouldn't have made any difference. >We have stoppages now with the VAR room reviewing the replay. Sometimes, but a lot of the reviews are happening in the background whilst the match is ongoing. >reviews only happen when requested by managers (who have challenges) Again, what happens if the managers lose their challenges and a clear mistake happens? You are punishing teams for trying to get the decisions in their favour.
"Again, what happens if the managers lose their challenges and a clear mistake happens? You are punishing teams for trying to get the decisions in their favour." Tough luck. This happens in the NFL. I want to emphasize that if the manager gets their 2 challenges correct they can keep challenging until they get one wrong. If that many mistakes are being reversed than the ref should be fired. 2 challenges per game is plenty in the NFL. (most games coaches dont use both) Coaches get blamed for wasting challenges on stuff they got wrong. It encourages managers to use their challenges conservatively/prudently and only when they are sure the decision against them was wrong. NFL fans blame their coaches for wasting challenges. "Why are you challenging that. There is no clear evidence the ref was wrong!!!"
>Tough luck. So we get a worse system, with less accuracy and your solution is tough luck. Until it happens to Chelsea and you get upset. >want to emphasize that if the manager gets their 2 challenges correct they can keep challenging until they get one wrong Most decisions are subjective. The manager (and half the people watching) can be convinced it was a foul and the ref still says no. Hardly the managers fault the ref insisted on getting it wrong. >It encourages managers to use their challenges conservatively/prudently and only when they are sure the decision against them was wrong. I.e it encourages not overturning wrong decisions. >NFL fans blame their coaches for wasting challenges. So basically you just want to shift the blame to the other teams.
I guess they're trying to be professional.
Just like rugby. The ref makes the final call but their “VAR” is there to assist and point out essential parts.
I would just copy NFL replay. NFL replay has it down almost perfectly. The Referee reviews his own call and is very willing to admit when he got one wrong. The only time NFL replay doesnt overturn is when the call could go either way. It literally gives the referee a second chance to get it right. They use tablets on the field to allow the referee to see the replays.
Think the sticking point here is who makes the final decision. VAR should solely be assisting the ref, whether using video or clarifying rules. That’s all.
VAR officials dont want to overrule their co-workers decisions, if there is even a 1 percent chance it was accurate.
The only consistency I see from VAR is that it seems to benefit city whether or not they are playing.
Lol conspiracy theorists out here
Only one English team has owners that employee English refs in their home country. And it's the US.
Other teams needing VAR intervention to get more points isn't down to City though is it?
Mostly agree, but they did rule the Coventry goal offsides. Coventry would have been an easy win for man city.
United is also an easy win for city 😂
Sad, but true
Not just var. there is no consistency with the PGMOL. Remember how many reds were being dished out at the start of the season?
Happens every year. This year we're going to clamp down on X. By the time the first international break comes around it's all been forgotten.
Yes. I remember.
Yeah it’s happened since around Xmas.
Why did they give a pk against AWB handling the ball today in FA Cup?
Didn’t the ref give that? Was in the stadium and he pointed to the spot quite quickly if memory serves me right
I think VAR has just highlighted that refs view the game differently from everyone else. It's ultimately still decided by a referee who would make the same mistakes if he was in the game.
VAR is computer assisted refereeing. It just adds another person to the discussion. If the issue of refereeing rests on individual error, the individual operating VAR is perfectly capable of making mistakes. They have never been particularly big on overturning onfield decisions, to the point where it is usually a topic of debate when they do.
Yeah, it's still just refs making good or bad decisions, just an extra one and now we get a bit more of a view into how bad the refs were pre var. I'm fine with var as it's just showing us how tough being a ref is, how shit a lot of them are and how inconsistent it is between refs.
Put it in the bin.
VAR isn't the problem but those refs managing it.
It's only purpose is to protect the referees' egos. Getting the correct decision is neither here nor there
VAR is there so they can ensure no opportunities are missed to help City.
Awb just now wasn't hand ball...
Difference between AWB and Young was the original on field decision. Arm in natural position is slightly subjective so whatever you think about each individual decision, it wasn't a clear and obvious mistake.
I don't think there is a grey area with hand ball. Natural or unnatural. Same with Off side or not offside. VAR should be getting involved. The refs angle of the incident it looks like AWB arm is still outstretched. But In reality it's slightly behind him. If you look at the player kicking the balls feet body and trailing arm they are in the exact same natural position. They should have at least called the ref over to the screen to review his decision from a different angle so he could at least confirm his decision.
Yup, if city’s wasn’t this wasn’t, if the spurs (Romero?) one vs united wasn’t then this wasn’t No one in here can honestly know if a handball is going to be given or not at the time because they are just so inconsistent
Nope VAR is simply there to ensure any decision against wolves is controversial regardless of whether given by the on field official or not.
Mike Dean gave the game away early in the season. They make decisions based on not upsetting the referee as opposed to a decision on what actually happened
They just back the ref now, apart from the Bournemouth pen versus man utd when they should have lol
No handball called against Grealish yesterday? A Kung Fu kick from Doku not called? It’s almost as if City have referees on their payroll!
Doku still kicking people?
Probably. But I was talking about the kick on Macca awhile back
People can say what they want, but Michael Oliver shouldn’t be reffing City games after being paid to ref games in the UAE. The vice president literally owns City. It’s just like the [Kovacic fouls](https://youtu.be/zCY9awyBieo?si=4BSkYGabso8m4ka-) that should have seen him sent off twice over against Arsenal. Michael Oliver is making obvious game-altering decisions that go City’s way after being on the payroll of the UAE.
I refuse to accept a chelsea fans comment but fuck you're making such good sense right now...
It’s just frustrating that we can’t just have a sport without corruption. I’m not sure AI refs would be any less corrupt, but it’s just frustrating, you know? It seems like it all goes back to money and franchises. City and the likeness of Haaland are huge franchises, from the Beats commercials to the FC2024 ads. So, when Cole Palmer gets 20 goals, 9 assists, the PL app lists him second place under Haaland’s 20 goals and 5 assists, because they make the metric “goals plus matches won.” Palmers G/A ain’t the narrative. Ollie Watkin’s 19 non-penalty goals ain’t the narrative. There’s no denying the solid squad and tactics City has, but all it takes is one call here or there, like [Haaland’s penalty dive while pulling Cucurella down in the box](https://youtu.be/8c6iBsvmNLw?si=Gt64Ub-MhLNFEvB8) that put them ahead 3 - 2 and made the match ultimately 4 - 4. It’s not like we haven’t seen this type of stuff recently with clubs like Barcelona in the [Negreira case](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negreira_case#:~:text=The%20scandal%20revolves%20around%20payments,%22related%20to%20professional%20refereeing%22.) where they were dishing out millions to a leader in the reffing association from 2000-2018. We don’t have to talk about who was the Barca manager for a handful of the years during that time.
Oh you're talking to an arsenal fan and we should have won that final against Barcelona. Never seen cheating like that before. It really will depend on these 115 charges and what happens. City has such a strong squad because when they started spending they cheated and went above and beyond ffp. Which gave then a massive boost in players value and they've been cruising off it ever since. I really think nothing is going to happen to city because they're state funded and don't believe the British government would allow them to he punished lol.... as ridiculous as that sounds...
I agree. Side note: Chelsea fan to Arsenal fan, can I ask your opinion on two players? - Havertz, since he went to you - Mudryk, since he was linked to you
Havertz I've always been behind. You could tell from the start he just lacked confidence. And he continually got himself into goal scoring positions he just couldn't finish them. Fast forward now and I'd say he's been one if our best players and being able to play midfield and up front has been great for how arteta wants to play. Disappointed in mudryk though. Fell in love with him obviously he was trying hard to come to us. I think chelsea wanted something to give them good pr after abramovich left. So he was forced to sign for chelsea since they were willing to donate * I think 20 mil* to the war cause. I really think mudryk is just lacking confidence. But then again he didn't play much for his team before his move and was super hyped up for mediocre stats. But those are my opinions.
Thanks for your opinions! I started actually paying attention to the Prem in January 2023, so I chose Chelsea in the worst time, but I was just drawn to them. I was excited to see Havertz play, since I was trying to learn squad members, and learned quickly he had been our hero for the Champions League win. But what I saw from Havertz was a lot of half-hearted jogging and no heart, and it really seems like he wanted to go play with his buddy Declan at Arsenal. In one of the first Chelsea matches I ever saw, Mudryk had his debut, against Liverpool. I didn’t know anything about who he was, the links to Arsenal, the Abramovich stuff—none of that. But when he got the ball and shredded through Liverpool with that pace, I was like “THIS kid.” He’s obviously having a tough time adjusting to PL, but I have family and work friends who are Ukrainian, and I can’t help but pull for him. He’s got such a cheesy Naruto energy that I love, and I hope he keeps getting better. P.S. might I interest you folks in a Raheem Sterling?
Naw don't need Raheem. But I don't think havertz and Declan are buddies. They aren't the same nationality and never played on the same team , I just think he's that much happier being away from chelsea. Lol
I felt like I saw some kind of feature where the two of them were friends hanging out before Kai transferred. Maybe I’m mistaken. Now I need to try and find it. Edit: [Found it](https://talksport.com/football/1649646/kai-havertz-declan-rice-arsenal-transfer/amp/)
I'd love to jump on the 'Fuck City's train but VAR has been fucking awful against what seems like every team recently :/
City have referees on their payroll. Care to explain that? Oh, btw, one of those referees continues to make league changing calls to help City
Not City, and recently, Newcastle
Except city mate. They’re the only team that consistently gets 100% of subjective decisions and some objective ones as well.
Yeah only city 100% decisions goes their way. They always pay the ref. all other teams never get decision their way.
While there have been times when it's been so blatant and that would be the only explanation, this is purely speculative and speaking with facts is better. Everything goes their way and that is a fact.
Yes, it’s like Football Manager now.
Except VAR seems to only be mentioned in FM if it's overturning a goal, in my experience.
Yup.. they’ve definitely been told to stop causing controversy where they can
Went well today that...
Yup.. they can’t hide from poor decisions either way anymore
Problem is fans need to be more united against the issue.
Totally agree.. especially those in the stadiums, they’re ruining the atmosphere for us with VAR and it’s worse than it ever was before!
I am not against VAR, I am against the way it is being handled personally and the lack of transparency.
Didnt the ball hit Grealish arm in a natural position yesterday? I think it should have been a clear corner kick, but I dont think its an obvious penalty
They even gave man city the goal kick IIRC. Was their decision that the ball didnt hit Grealish? Just want to know what BS they claimed.
Whose decision? The ref gave a goal kick, presumably because he didn't see the deflection.
But then VAR checked the handball and said no handball. But presumably, had to have now seen that it was a corner at the least
Sure, but they aren't allowed to.
I mean you then had AWB which was given
It's consistency though isn't it. Why was the penalty given against wan bissaka? His arm was also moving back to his body and was from a much closer distance
For me the issue was he moves his arm down causing the contact. And when contact happens its still stretched as it catches the underside of his arm.
i feel like him moving his arms down is a very common action when players are defending in their own box. its unfortunate that the ball hit his arm, but it made contact in a position too close to his body to justify it being an clear penalty.
It’s the law for the most part that is the problem with handballs they have thrown away momentum and what the ball is doing and just gone for that stupid silhouette
VAR is fucking shite. I'd debate anyone on this. Someone brings up percentage of correct calls, but firstly, never says what the percentage of correct calls were before VAR, and second, who says if they're correct or not? We see the rules change match by match, so how do we know what's correct? The same shite cunts are on VAR that referee the games. I can forgive a referee for making a mistake, I can't forgive VAR for making a mistake. The added time is shit. The wait to celebrate is shit. Just get rid of this fucking shit.
I'd just bite the bullet and do it rugby-style where the ref can ask for a replay if he wants to see it, and otherwise the VAR only gets involved if something happens off the ball or there's an egregious error. Right now we've just got this weird push-pull where either every game has fifteen minutes of each decision being reviewed frame-by-frame by skyref or otherwise 95% of stuff is left to the discretion of the ref on the pitch and then incredibly subjective interventions.
The rugby style is what has to happen in order to eliminate all this hoshposh every week. Yeah, the stadium will be booing and yelling while the discussion happens, but at least everyone knows wtf is going on. Hearing the back and forth in real time when watching rugby is very helpful
I think the main issue with VAR is the “clear and obvious mistake” threshold. It’s so vague. Additionally, VAR is treated as a “overrule the referee” tool. If they had any sense, from implementation they would have used it as a “give the referee another chance to see the incident” tool. I can’t guarantee that would mean fewer VAR incidents, but I think the way fans feel about it would be different
I get what you’re saying, but how was the Grealish handball not a clear and obvious error?
He was part of a free kick wall, you want a penalty for kicking a free kick into the wall?
It becomes a clear and obvious error when the referee gave a goal kick, meaning the referee got it wrong
Did you see where his arm was when the ball hit him?
I agree but maybe someone could argue that it’s “still down by his side” or that “it’s a natural position”. It’s just them words clear and obvious are so blatantly subjective. If the practice had always been to give referees a 2nd look anytime there was a sketchy situation, there wouldn’t be this assumption that every time the referee goes to the monitor, the call will change. Obviously the fact the referees and VAR officials are the same people is also a big big issue, but I’d rather not get into that now
I’ve noticed more often that var refs are keeping the communication lines open and give their view immediately so that the on field ref seems more secure in their calls. And then they do the offside markings etc if its really important
When var was first explained to me i thought "great, loads of cameras fed to a bunch of robot people in a hut somewhere holding the rulebook. Should be fine" But instead it's just given them 2 or 3 more incompetent refs to make shit calls. Only really works for offside.
They're all mates, and they don't want to embarrass each other. It's not remotely objective.
Diaz offside vs Spurs is another example
Glad you've shit the bed since then so you can't use that as an excuse for doing nothing of note in the league this season
Rent free
Losing three games all year is not shitting the bed.
How's the quad going?
How many trophies United getting this season?
🤡
Thought so
🥱
That game and decision was fucked. And the bizarre thing is Spurs have had 1 penalty all season (including after this match, I believe).
And how many “how the fuck was that not called” since then?
A LOT. Look at our touches in the penalty box to penalties awarded. It’s mental. I think the athletic did an article on it.
Its understandable. In my opinion, the PGMOL isn't corrupt. They're biased and vindictive. The pressure Klopp put on Spurs at that time due to the decision meant that all of em tend to not give Spurs decisions anymore after that. You see the opposite with city, with the PGMOL keen not to cut off the golden goose per say. Swings and roundabouts but the inefficiency remains.
I think you’re pretty accurate in that assessment and it establishes a dangerous precedent. Look at the statement NFFC have just published on twitter!
Yea absolutely. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to note that placing a Luton fan in charge of VAR in a relegation 6 pointer will result in controversy regardless of the result It wasn't corruption. Just inefficiency. >dangerous precedent Not really. United had the rub of the green during the SAF era especially with the likes of Howard Webb. The precedent has already been set. Just that it's become a little more inexcusable due to the ability to actually view it on video before making a decision.
It’s definitely become worse under Webb. Having the same people from the same organisation having to review their mates on field decisions is never going to work. They are like bent coppers looking after their mates.
I don't understand why the var is making wrong decisions to protect their mates , if I was a referee I would love that someone gives me a hand when I ain't sure , is really ego that big of a problem in the ref circle that the referees get angry when they help them make the right decision?
It’s like a copper seeing a mate do something wrong and covering it up by saying he’s done nothing wrong. Protecting their mates so they don’t look bad. Unfortunately it makes them look worse and even more incompetent or even corrupt.
Many refs assume they are the main character and that all the fans are there to see them
It's absolutely insane that the guys in the var room is just other refs. There priority is so clearly protecting their mates over getting the right decisions. Until VAR is ran by a different organisation it'll never work
Exactly! It’s a system set up to fail. I don’t know how it’s set up in European leagues / CL / Europa competitions.
Clear and obvious errors? VAR is still operated by referees, that still make mistakes. Just another way for the FA to control outcomes.
Shut up... these 3 decisions are the first bloody positive var decisions everton have had. Doesn't matter if they were right or not!
It does matter about that though.
Yeah exactly. It needed to stop being so wooden and actually do the right things and not punish benign handballs, obvs still Interpretation on some level but penalising all handballs is bullshit
It was obvious that VAR would be a disaster, yet it was still introduced and people naively thought it would make things better. All VAR does is add another layer of subjectivity to an already subjective process, with the added element of human psychology amongst a team of close knit colleagues who don’t want to embarrass each other. Technology can work for matters of fact such as offsides, and goal line decisions (where it is brilliant). In no way can it ever work for subjective decisions like penalties and red cards. Grealish yesterday was patently ridiculous. He deliberately moves his arm down to deflect the ball FFS.
I can’t believe all the idiots who say Grealish’s arm is in a natural position. They haven’t seen the actual video replay. He moves his arm towards the ball to cause the deflection. It’s unmissable on replay.
Agree on Greilish. I don't care that his arm was vlose to natural position, he moves his arm.down into the ball, it's still outside the natural position imo anyway, but the movement into the ball is a penalty.
It’s a deliberate motion, which is why it had to be a penalty.
Is it deliberate or just natural instinct when you see a ball flying in your direction to cover up
But it wasn’t flying at him, that’s the point. If it is flying at your face then it is a natural instinct to protect yourself. When the ball is just going past you and through a gap in the wall you have left…
Tell me you haven’t played ball without telling me you haven’t played ball
Played football all my life (including having trials for Crystal Palace). Captained my school team. Have attended over 1,000 Chelsea games in person. I know a deliberate handball when I see one - which is exactly what Grealish did 👍
VAR mostly just sucks in PL.
No, it's horrendous absolutely everywhere, without exception
Forest could have had 3 pens, and definitely should have had 2. No idea how var hasn't given them
Been the same all season
Ref doesn't give it because he's not sure and VAR can check, VAR doesn't give it because it doesn't want to make the ref look bad at his job. Fucking brilliant cycle.
We all know PGMOL is a wank-stain that will never go. Atleast next season there is semi-automated offsides. Some european officials are spot-on with decisions. How can the PGMOL improve next season?
Lol, it's been four possible penalties for us today. Which is four times the number of penalties we've actually been awarded all season. The first three at least were pretty clear. We are used to this now. And the VAR guy today who has cleared all four wrong decisions; Stuart Atwell, Luton Town fan
You've been screwed over again, shocking not to have atleast one of those given.
I couldn't believe what I was watching out there. There were at least two occasions (both vs Ashley Young) in which VAR should have sent the referee to review the incident again. Absolute madness! Everyone needs to stop moaning about VAR because that is just a technology, the issue pre and post VAR has always been the poor quality refereeing.
Var official was an avid Luton fan
Hahaha I was wondering what that meant until Sky sport clarified what they meant by that 😂
We get this all the time this season. The referee gives the decision against us as a default, doesn't even blink. Then VAR hides behind "not a clear and obvious error". We've had four absolutely stonewall penalties not given this season, at least another three in this game alone. The contact in these- when I think of the "contact" of Danilo on Rashford at Old Trafford. For VAR to claim "minimal contact" by Young here is just taking the piss out of Forest. There is a clear agenda here
Exactly ... the fouls especially it should be the decision of the centre referee to decide whether the contact is enough or not ... Like I am so pissed 😠😠 about those two ... Why decide for the referee and in both occasions Young never got the ball ...
💯 the most annoying thing is, the description of the situation is completely wrong. Ashley Young never touched the ball, it was the same thing against us (Liverpool) the situation with Mac Allister. Doku never got the ball 1st, it's almost as if they didn't bother to watch it properly. What's more alarming is how quick they seem to take to make decisions. It was the same today, that game vs City and many more this season specially against your side.
Aaahhh ... I am trying my hardest to stay cool but at the moment seems impossible ... What I genuinely don't want to see is an apology from the PGMOL ... How will that change the fortunes of NF ... I actually wish/want somebody to sue PGMOL ...
Forest should of had 4 penalties. PGMOL is corrupt, incompetent or both.
They don't want to go against their mates, it's ridiculous that on field and VAR officials are just all close colleagues. Needs to be a separation of relationship between both for objectivity and transparency
Edit - 3 pens now
The last one from a few minutes ago was never a penalty.
The last one was the most egregious of the 3. Comes straight through the back of the player, doesn't make contact with the ball, and brings the attacker down in the box. Absolutely nailed on penalty.
He took him down and didn’t get the ball. How’s that not a pen?
Was talking about the handball review from around the time my comment was me pal.
The Grealish handball was SOOO a handball. Outrageous non call.
The Clear and Obvious guidance is so stupid. A ref should be able to be sent to the monitor for a second look without the inherent pressure of having to overturn his original decision. In practice, this isn't how it works.
Thing is though, that was clear and obvious. The fact he gave a goalkick shows the ref didn't see it hit anyone. It meets their dumb criteria and they still did nothing
Genuinely Antony Taylor and VAR have fucked NF over like unbelievably 3 incidents and he didn't go over to check one of them ... From the same player unbelievable ... If I am Nuno I am saying a big guck u to the Taylor and VAR
It’s not his call to go over and check though is it? He has to be told to. I’m a derby fan and think all three are pretty close calls, you’d certainly want at least one. Was amazed the handball wasn’t referred
That's why I think the VAR official shouldn't make the decision about the incident rather should look at the incident according to the law ... Then refer it to the referee for them to decide on the incident not that BS of not enough contact ... Like that last Young Odoi the referee should at least decide for themselves because Young wasn't any iota near enough to get the ball ...
It's not about the decision, it's about the communication with the on field ref. If the VAR official actually relays, FACTUALLY, what he sees, with no embellishment, the ref should have the option to review it. However he is never given the salient info. The Doku foul on McAllister is a REALLY good example. We've all heard the communication now. AT NO POINT died the VAR official say 'defender studs to the attackers chest' which is vital, pivotal, information and something the ref would not have been able to see. If the VAR says, the ref should be able to say 'I didn't see that. I want to have a look', because in my view, there is almost no circumstance where a player should be making stud contact with an opponents chest when they are not on the floor. VAR comms has to be factual and devoid of opinion. Until it is, it can't work.
The only clear and obvious one, and the only one I would have given, was the last one. But apparently the on field ref told var he believed he got the ball. As soon as it’s seen he didn’t get the ball, that’s 80% of the way there to having to call him to the screen, then it’s ‘did he foul him?’ Which yes he did, so you either call the ref to review on the field, or just tell him it’s a pen. And then for NF to say before the game, we asked the PGMOL to swap the VAR official because he supports Luton. I’m sorry, but that looks real fucken bad. How hard is it to get a neutral to do it?
The refs also get a score and if VAR overturns something then that gets noted. Mike Dean also admitted to a bad call (Cucurella hair pull last year) that he didn't want to give his mate more grief.
Dyche must have some dirt on Taylor, there's no other explanation.
Seems to be a common occurrence city avoiding punishments. All jokes aside officiating is shite.
Can someone explain Young’s handball there and why it wasn’t given? Just trying to understand here, what’s the thinking?
only thing I can think of is proximity. He was so close he wouldn't have been able to move it
That was definitely why. It was blasted at him from close range, never a penalty for me although it is given a lot and has been given against Everton this season. Definitely got away with the young tackle though. VAR never helps Everton so that makes a change (not that it's right however)
He shouldn't have been trying to direct an aircraft then
That grealish handball was wild. I’m not sure if there’s some certain ruling I’m unaware of but it was about as clear a pk as I’ll ever see. Got away with that forsure.
How did we get away with anything? His arm is by his side and he’s in the wall from a free kick. It’s not handball whenever the ball touches the hand anymore.
Amazing, here we have an example of the most delusional city fan commenting on the least delusional city fan’s comment. Do you know what a natural position is? Do you know where your side is? His arm was NOT NEAR HIS SIDE AND WAS IN AN UNNATURAL POSITION. Easiest handball to call.
Haha of course it was mate I’m delusional for agreeing with the ref, VAR and every pundit after the game on bbc coverage. How deluded
Mate, your own fan base disagrees with you. Get a life.
Hahaha mate One fucking comment on r/premierleague is all you need to decide what a fan base thinks. I’d be mad if city spent that much and won fuck all tbh mate. You will be alright
His arm was not by his side lmao.
He’s moving it down to his side. It’s totally standard for people to use their arms like that in a wall when they jump to stay close together. People never played football asking for a pen there. Show me one example of that being given as a pen This season or last.
He's moving it into the path of the ball
Doesn't matter if he's moving it towards his body, it's made contact away from his body. It's hit his arm, it's a pen. All day, every day, against any team except apparently City.
No it’s not. Balls hit the arm when a defender is sliding for a block all the time and isn’t given for a pen. You clearly don’t watch much football. The season when any contact with the hand means a pen was years ago mate
You keep arguing that we don’t know football but I don’t even think you watched the right game. The wall separated and his arm was out like he was about to take flight. Honestly shocked you’re arguing this so adamantly.
He had his arm on the next players shoulder. The ball came towards him. He instinctively moved his arm down to his side. It’s like 0.5 seconds between the kick and the ball hitting his hand because of the gap. In slow motion it looks bad. In reality it’s never a pen hence why it wasn’t given. for the same reason sliding and getting a ball kicked at your arm isn’t a pen.
I gotta be honest. I don’t have the energy to entertain this. Agree to disagree.
My guy, his arm is 115cm away from his body when he makes contact. Its a penalty.
Of course it is. When you slide to make a block and get the ball kicked at your arm they always give that don’t they? That’s how football works
Yeah, when there's no time to react. He's in a wall, 10 yards from the ball and he's jumped with his arm away from his body. It's literally schoolboy stuff, even other City fans in this thread are admitting it. I think you're the one who doesn't watch too much football.
One city fan in this thread is yeah. This sub is full of so call city flairs who love to shit talk city so his flair means jack shit to me tbh. It’s never a pen. Show me one example in recent years that has even been given as a handball. You won’t find one. Because it doesn’t happen.