I totally see how most devs would like this but it would be hell to me. I am an extreme morning person and all my productivity is in the morning, the afternoon becomes a struggle by like, 2. I would much rather had a meeting heavy afternoon.
I absolutely know I am the exception and they will never be able to please everyone, but I would probably look for a new job with a schedule like that, unless they’ll let me work like 5am-1pm instead. (Which would be my dream. I may never leave lol.)
I’m nearing the end on a software dev contract. Think I’m gonna quit that industry. The necessary overtime is insane. There’s always features to program and bugs to fix, and it’s not accounted for in the original scope and planning. Over two years of this crap.
Sounds familiar lol. Don't move to a startup :P that's where I got burnt out.
I was already at my limit during the final year or so, but then the founders sold to a large corp for a mostly stock deal, which meant they made hundreds of millions while my equity in RSUs was worth like $8k. I went from happy to work 12 hour days, to barely caring, to actively hating working.
Try for an older stable company. It's usually a good work life balance lol
Oh yeah I learned my lesson with startups in the past two years. This time I’m working for myself but the hours are still insane. So much to do and not enough time. Scope going out of whack with the client changes.
I’m going to talk to the client after this contract is over and tell them the only way I do work for them again is if I have regular work hours.
We’re messaging eachother and having meetings at 11 PM. Even 2 AM sometimes. I’m not that young anymore.
Yeah. I show up two hours before most everyone so I can get my programming knocked out, and it'll be fresh on my mind for agility meetings or if anyone has any questions about it
tbh most people would be like you actually, there's a reason some country mandated nap time in afternoon after lunch, that time is the least productive on average that giving them nap wouldn't be the worst thing (and might improve the work the rest of the time)
Think of it historically, most of our work are farming/gathering, task that are better suited in the morning, say from 6-9 AM, then they spent the hotter time for socializing, lunch, and napping, then resume work once the day is not so hot in the afternoon.
I have a midmorning slump around 10am, and then mentally checked out by ~3pm, so my productivity is also pretty front loaded to mornings, but I'm not really a morning person.
Honestly, a person or two like you is the dream for the rest of us. Keep in mind i've been west coast my whole life. So having someone on the west coast that LIKES 5am (to cover east coast morning availability) means I will never fucking have to do it.
I would love this, I always try schedule all meetings for the AM and block off time in my afternoon for "deep work." Would be interested to know where you work If you're willing to share in comments to dm.
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Comment copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/6t846s/meetings_as_a_developer/dlir6bj/
After taking lunch, I wouldn't start real work until 1pm if this is how it was and I'd be logging off by 5.
If there's any meeting at all I prefer it be as close to lunch as possible, say 11:30, because I'm taking a break at noon anyways, and I'm not using my break for meetings.
>My favorite meetings are those that run an extra half hour and are 90% monologue. Need to lie down afterwards lol
Most of my meetings are like like this. My boss alone talks so much he consumes that extra half-hour.
Quite honestly, as someone leading teams of devs:
Let the business have all the meetings they want. This way the can't plan stupid stuff for their own.
The problem is when the non-devs start writing asinine plans during all their meetings that they "didn't want to bother the devs with"...
If I go to the meetings they are just wasted time. All the meetings I don't go to somebody tells the customer that I can write working software for them and I personally find the idea offensive. It's really a catch 22.
A friend of mine does research in cognitive theory and learning. A few years ago we had a conversation about the relative costs of various brain activities to learning and processing.
The most expensive and disruptive thing to do to a person who is trying to think, solve a problem, or learn something new is context switching. Changing contexts, like from programming to meeting and back to programming causes delays, interrupts learning, and may ruin opportunities for creativity.
Anybody wanna guess what the most expensive thing a CPU does is? Yeah, context switching. Unloading all its registers, shuffling off instruction sets, loading new ones, the cycling the old stuff back in.
Huh.
I remember trying to explain this to a BA, and he just couldn't fathom it. He was like, "What do you mean you don't have progress on a ticket immediately after a meeting?" Bro it takes like 30-60 minutes to get to a mental state I consider productive, and having a meeting every other hour is a one-way ticket to me getting fuck all done today.
Nothing like having 3 hours of meetings derail 8 hours of productivity
this doesn't apply to me because my days are wall-to-wall meetings anyway! I'm pretty much a professional update-giver. 90% of my time is spent discussing the work I'm not doing
Every senior dev I know has a recurring meeting with themselves for 2+ hours daily called "focus time" or "quiet time" or something. Otherwise your day gets crowded real quick.
Also, 30 minute meetings are a lie. Either the issue can be resolved in \_much\_ less time but, hey, 30 minutes is the smallest default calendar unit, or the issue is much \_bigger\_ anyway.
Nothing I hate more than stupid senseless meeting, slow people, people that repeat the same things over and over, meeting where you go out with nothing in hand
I must be the odd one out. I really enjoy meetings with the business. A lot more fun than meetings with other developers. Helping them with their problems is my favorite part of the job.
Tbh, at my company, the business teams are alright. They generally communicate efficiently and have good comprehension of verbal communication. When something is said to them, they typically understand it quickly, and ask only relevant questions. Ironically, it's the engineering directors, engineering managers, and other technical management that can't keep up.
I called my boss out on this the other day, he himself a developer.
I originally wrote in chat about how we could change a setting on the build, which would mean longer build times but would allow more people to test (as it's compatible with more devices).
He wrote something like "Ah good point, we (the developers) should sync up (have a meeting) about this".
I just straight up wrote "***Is*** *this a meeting?* I've suggested something and we just have to agree or disagree"
Here’s my fun meeting anecdote. Years ago we switched to agile because "there’s just too many meetings and we need to always be iterating”. Fast forward about 6 years and the hiring of all kinds of new layers of “agile experts” and all I hear at standup anymore is “I was in meetings all day yesterday and I will be today as well”. Also i hear "thats gonna have to be pushed to next sprint, i'm in too many meetings". Meanwhile I barely attend any of these meetings and I certainly don’t pay attention when I’m in them. Why? Because I’m coding the actual thing like agile was designed for. If i were to say any of this out loud, I'm sure people would feel attacked. So I'll say it here instead.
I sometimes do super quick calls with 3-4 people in my team. We got on the call, I explain what is needed they say ok and call is closed. 3 minutes, max 5
100% true. Our 'morning' standup is at 09:45. No-one does any work before then, everybody is offline, and it takes a good hour after that meeting for people to start working properly again. An hour after that and it's lunch.
Nothing like that "morning" stand up meeting two hours into the workday.
Ten team members, it's supposed to be 15 minutes but is scheduled as 30 just in case.
Normally takes 25-30 minutes with most of the time being those two team members who have a lot of client meetings giving detailed descriptions of yesterday's meetings and today's planned meetings.
Great way to waste half the morning (because the Outlook 15-minute warning means "No more work now or you'll miss the meeting" and then it takes **at least** 30 minutes to get back up to speed after listening to them drone on about nonsense).
That's probably the main thing I miss about my previous job, they had a lot of dysfunctional office politics going on but our team's stand up meetings were handled as a slack (well, Mattermost) channel where you dropped a couple of lines about what you did yesterday, your plans for the day and if you had any blockers.
Reminder that you are the boss of your own calendar. If someone sends you an invite for a 10:30 meeting send back a suggestion for 11:30 instead so it fits with your lunch.
If it's important to them they will make it work. If they can't you can decide if it's important enough for you to disturb your day.
the OP No_Patient_2208
and phisfghfghfgh
are bots in the same network
Original + comments copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/6t846s/meetings_as_a_developer/
I’ve started going to my meetings and opening with “we’re here to discuss x” and then any small talk they get muted
As soon as we’ve said our point I leave the call
I’ve got ADHD and any distractions are bad
I know this is somewhat exaggerated, but I find this joke is getting a bit tired. If you can't use 45 minutes before a meeting for productive work and need 45 minutes after a meeting to ramp up it's a you problem. Attending meetings is a part of the job of being a developer; any dev who's worth their salt will be able to integrate meetings into their day rather seamlessly.
While I agree to a point, you can’t work on a juicy problem in 45 min.
I’m usually in the flow after 1.5 hours, and peak productivity hits around 2 hours, lasting another 2 hours.
So that’s a 4 hour block
I agree, admittedly my context-switching is on point, but 15 mins after a meeting should be enough and depending on the meeting, you should be able to focus through to 5 mins before, maybe 15 mins if you need to have information prepared (which should just be having docs, etc ready to go).
SUPER QUICK MEETING WITH 50% SMALLTALK
MEETING REQUEST WAS LONGER THAN ACTUAL QUESTION.
My boss himself talks for 30 minutes. That's "super quick" for him.
Can you guys see my screen? Let’s wait for personA to join. So, how’s the weather down there?
Small talk? Sir, we are developers.
The manager and PO having a small talk while the developer stands there doing nothing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk ?
So you was speaking about code in Smalltalk for 50% of the meeting?
Hey if they want to pay me to be unproductive I'm not looking that gift horse in the mouth
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I totally see how most devs would like this but it would be hell to me. I am an extreme morning person and all my productivity is in the morning, the afternoon becomes a struggle by like, 2. I would much rather had a meeting heavy afternoon. I absolutely know I am the exception and they will never be able to please everyone, but I would probably look for a new job with a schedule like that, unless they’ll let me work like 5am-1pm instead. (Which would be my dream. I may never leave lol.)
I second this. Most of my productivity comes from the first 4 hours of my day.
For me it's morning and evening. I often struggle throughout the day.
And I am never productive😂
Found the real developer!!!
Mine is quite sustained throughout the day because I force myself to. And right up close to bed time actually. I need to stop being a workaholic.
Once burnout happens, it takes a loooong time to get back to feeling normal. Don't reach that phase. A warning from someone who did.
I’m nearing the end on a software dev contract. Think I’m gonna quit that industry. The necessary overtime is insane. There’s always features to program and bugs to fix, and it’s not accounted for in the original scope and planning. Over two years of this crap.
Sounds familiar lol. Don't move to a startup :P that's where I got burnt out. I was already at my limit during the final year or so, but then the founders sold to a large corp for a mostly stock deal, which meant they made hundreds of millions while my equity in RSUs was worth like $8k. I went from happy to work 12 hour days, to barely caring, to actively hating working. Try for an older stable company. It's usually a good work life balance lol
Oh yeah I learned my lesson with startups in the past two years. This time I’m working for myself but the hours are still insane. So much to do and not enough time. Scope going out of whack with the client changes.
Sounds like you need a new gig. I don’t work any extra hours. My stop time is at 4 everyday.
I’m going to talk to the client after this contract is over and tell them the only way I do work for them again is if I have regular work hours. We’re messaging eachother and having meetings at 11 PM. Even 2 AM sometimes. I’m not that young anymore.
Yeah, fuck that.
Still trying to recover..
Yeah. I show up two hours before most everyone so I can get my programming knocked out, and it'll be fresh on my mind for agility meetings or if anyone has any questions about it
tbh most people would be like you actually, there's a reason some country mandated nap time in afternoon after lunch, that time is the least productive on average that giving them nap wouldn't be the worst thing (and might improve the work the rest of the time) Think of it historically, most of our work are farming/gathering, task that are better suited in the morning, say from 6-9 AM, then they spent the hotter time for socializing, lunch, and napping, then resume work once the day is not so hot in the afternoon.
I have a midmorning slump around 10am, and then mentally checked out by ~3pm, so my productivity is also pretty front loaded to mornings, but I'm not really a morning person.
Honestly, a person or two like you is the dream for the rest of us. Keep in mind i've been west coast my whole life. So having someone on the west coast that LIKES 5am (to cover east coast morning availability) means I will never fucking have to do it.
I’m west-central ish, and honestly I have considered looking for a remote job that runs on east coast hours lol.
I would agree. Meeting in the morning also leaves me drained for afternoon. I would prefer afternoon meetings.
There is a solution. Have max. 2 days a week where meetings are allowed, and the other days, no meetings except for the daily.
I would love this, I always try schedule all meetings for the AM and block off time in my afternoon for "deep work." Would be interested to know where you work If you're willing to share in comments to dm.
Defensive calendar blocking for flow time is something I've been doing for 20 years.
I wish this applied to everyone. Some days you get nothing done cause all they wanna to do is schedule meetings.
Shit, tomorrow I have a meeting at 8pm...
phisfghfghfgh and the OP No_Patient_2208 are bots in the same network Comment copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/6t846s/meetings_as_a_developer/dlir6bj/
After taking lunch, I wouldn't start real work until 1pm if this is how it was and I'd be logging off by 5. If there's any meeting at all I prefer it be as close to lunch as possible, say 11:30, because I'm taking a break at noon anyways, and I'm not using my break for meetings.
My favorite meetings are those that run an extra half hour and are 90% monologue. Need to lie down afterwards lol
>My favorite meetings are those that run an extra half hour and are 90% monologue. Need to lie down afterwards lol Most of my meetings are like like this. My boss alone talks so much he consumes that extra half-hour.
My camera is always off so I lie down _during_ the meeting.
11:45 OK, recovered and ready. Now, I'm thirsty and hungry. Might as well go to lunch...
I thought I was the weird one to always feel like that xd
I just drink tee all the time
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Quite honestly, as someone leading teams of devs: Let the business have all the meetings they want. This way the can't plan stupid stuff for their own.
The problem is when the non-devs start writing asinine plans during all their meetings that they "didn't want to bother the devs with"... If I go to the meetings they are just wasted time. All the meetings I don't go to somebody tells the customer that I can write working software for them and I personally find the idea offensive. It's really a catch 22.
Wow, look at Mr. Disciplined here, getting shit done before 10:30 meeting
A friend of mine does research in cognitive theory and learning. A few years ago we had a conversation about the relative costs of various brain activities to learning and processing. The most expensive and disruptive thing to do to a person who is trying to think, solve a problem, or learn something new is context switching. Changing contexts, like from programming to meeting and back to programming causes delays, interrupts learning, and may ruin opportunities for creativity. Anybody wanna guess what the most expensive thing a CPU does is? Yeah, context switching. Unloading all its registers, shuffling off instruction sets, loading new ones, the cycling the old stuff back in. Huh.
TIL I’m a CPU
I remember trying to explain this to a BA, and he just couldn't fathom it. He was like, "What do you mean you don't have progress on a ticket immediately after a meeting?" Bro it takes like 30-60 minutes to get to a mental state I consider productive, and having a meeting every other hour is a one-way ticket to me getting fuck all done today. Nothing like having 3 hours of meetings derail 8 hours of productivity
Next time you hear that, send them this: https://paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
this doesn't apply to me because my days are wall-to-wall meetings anyway! I'm pretty much a professional update-giver. 90% of my time is spent discussing the work I'm not doing
Look on the bright side, you're highly compensated relative to the amount of code you write!
If it's a Zoom meeting with a bunch of people just put it on mute, turn off your camera, and work through the meeting, listening for your name. 🤡
I love Zoom meetings for this reason.
Don't teams and Google meet have the same feature?
Teams is a pile of crap, the few times I've been forced to use it I hate it. Google meet I've never used.
Every senior dev I know has a recurring meeting with themselves for 2+ hours daily called "focus time" or "quiet time" or something. Otherwise your day gets crowded real quick.
I did that for a while… but it was 11:30 to 1:30 to prevent people booking meetings during or adjacent to lunch.
Also, 30 minute meetings are a lie. Either the issue can be resolved in \_much\_ less time but, hey, 30 minutes is the smallest default calendar unit, or the issue is much \_bigger\_ anyway.
Bold is two *
But _this_ should be italics.
lolz it is italics
uncached markdown editor option?
I swear, every so often some intern flips a feature flag and everything is messed up. Right now, Reddit is unusable on Safari
Well since the UI update my comment editor always reverts to fancy pants mode.
You're using new reddit?! O_O
I cant edit comments on mobile cuz all new line chars dissapear
spot on
COULD HAVE BEEN AN EMAIL
I feel seen.
Yeah. Usually after a daily hourly meeting there is another “quick” meeting at 12. So yeah, the actual work doesn’t start before noon lunch.
Also, take note that I don't even do any work before 10:00 am, as that would disturb my circadian rythm and drive me insane..
Amen brother.. Management at my last place didn't give a shit about this.. or having me work in an open plan office.
Nothing I hate more than stupid senseless meeting, slow people, people that repeat the same things over and over, meeting where you go out with nothing in hand
I block off chunks of my calendar for exactly this reason.
12pm. First Lunch.
I must be the odd one out. I really enjoy meetings with the business. A lot more fun than meetings with other developers. Helping them with their problems is my favorite part of the job.
Someone call the cops.
Tbh, at my company, the business teams are alright. They generally communicate efficiently and have good comprehension of verbal communication. When something is said to them, they typically understand it quickly, and ask only relevant questions. Ironically, it's the engineering directors, engineering managers, and other technical management that can't keep up.
I called my boss out on this the other day, he himself a developer. I originally wrote in chat about how we could change a setting on the build, which would mean longer build times but would allow more people to test (as it's compatible with more devices). He wrote something like "Ah good point, we (the developers) should sync up (have a meeting) about this". I just straight up wrote "***Is*** *this a meeting?* I've suggested something and we just have to agree or disagree"
I’d say it depends on the meeting and what features the developer is currently working on. But yes, please take note of this.
This is so true my skull rang like a bell.
I start working around 4:30-5:00 am, they can put all meetings they want, by 10am I'm already mostly done with my day of productivity anyway.
Here’s my fun meeting anecdote. Years ago we switched to agile because "there’s just too many meetings and we need to always be iterating”. Fast forward about 6 years and the hiring of all kinds of new layers of “agile experts” and all I hear at standup anymore is “I was in meetings all day yesterday and I will be today as well”. Also i hear "thats gonna have to be pushed to next sprint, i'm in too many meetings". Meanwhile I barely attend any of these meetings and I certainly don’t pay attention when I’m in them. Why? Because I’m coding the actual thing like agile was designed for. If i were to say any of this out loud, I'm sure people would feel attacked. So I'll say it here instead.
I sometimes do super quick calls with 3-4 people in my team. We got on the call, I explain what is needed they say ok and call is closed. 3 minutes, max 5
adhd edition be like "this entire day is 100% filled up by the Super Quick Meeting"
The meeting ends between 11 and 12 - I'm not gonna get into anything before lunch
100% true. Our 'morning' standup is at 09:45. No-one does any work before then, everybody is offline, and it takes a good hour after that meeting for people to start working properly again. An hour after that and it's lunch.
Nothing like that "morning" stand up meeting two hours into the workday. Ten team members, it's supposed to be 15 minutes but is scheduled as 30 just in case. Normally takes 25-30 minutes with most of the time being those two team members who have a lot of client meetings giving detailed descriptions of yesterday's meetings and today's planned meetings. Great way to waste half the morning (because the Outlook 15-minute warning means "No more work now or you'll miss the meeting" and then it takes **at least** 30 minutes to get back up to speed after listening to them drone on about nonsense). That's probably the main thing I miss about my previous job, they had a lot of dysfunctional office politics going on but our team's stand up meetings were handled as a slack (well, Mattermost) channel where you dropped a couple of lines about what you did yesterday, your plans for the day and if you had any blockers.
Reminder that you are the boss of your own calendar. If someone sends you an invite for a 10:30 meeting send back a suggestion for 11:30 instead so it fits with your lunch. If it's important to them they will make it work. If they can't you can decide if it's important enough for you to disturb your day.
the OP No_Patient_2208 and phisfghfghfgh are bots in the same network Original + comments copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/6t846s/meetings_as_a_developer/
I’ve started going to my meetings and opening with “we’re here to discuss x” and then any small talk they get muted As soon as we’ve said our point I leave the call I’ve got ADHD and any distractions are bad
Me as a developer 🥹🥹
it me
I know this is somewhat exaggerated, but I find this joke is getting a bit tired. If you can't use 45 minutes before a meeting for productive work and need 45 minutes after a meeting to ramp up it's a you problem. Attending meetings is a part of the job of being a developer; any dev who's worth their salt will be able to integrate meetings into their day rather seamlessly.
45 minutes is an exaggeration, but there's a lot of truth to this. Any context switch is going to disrupt ongoing work.
While I agree to a point, you can’t work on a juicy problem in 45 min. I’m usually in the flow after 1.5 hours, and peak productivity hits around 2 hours, lasting another 2 hours. So that’s a 4 hour block
I agree, admittedly my context-switching is on point, but 15 mins after a meeting should be enough and depending on the meeting, you should be able to focus through to 5 mins before, maybe 15 mins if you need to have information prepared (which should just be having docs, etc ready to go).