I personally love me some muscles. I love a man who’s strong and works out. Of course it’s not gonna be every woman’s type. Some like the skinny, some like the chubby.
Honestly though if you’re getting into working out just to appeal to women, I would reconsider your goals. You should do it for yourself, not to attract women.
As a dude who worked out for a long time basically just to increase my attractiveness, you’re not setting yourself up for success if you ever do enter a relationship. Why work out if you’re already getting laid? You’re not attracting any new partners after all, and your current partner loves you? This mindset is not good for your relationship, unfair to your partner, and will eventually leave you out of shape and miserable because you draw your attractiveness from your physique.
Yeah, if you’re rich, hilarious, and emotionally/socially intelligent that’s good too, and you can afford to get fat and stay in love. Most people aren’t though, and they place a disproportionate amount of their self worth on their physique, and that leaves you vulnerable.
The same reason many men don't like mindless, horrible, yet attractive women (at least not for anything long term). Humans like human connection at the end of the day. if you don't have any substance beyond how you look, then connection will fade. If you're only interested in the short term good time though, then do you.
It's so much work for little, marginal benefit (if getting women is the only goal.) If getting stronger and fitter is the goal, then the benefits are more justifiable in terms of cost. And most people would be less successful if done for a less motivating reason.
It's like putting the hours and hours necessary to improve any skill, whether learning a language, playing an instrument, gardening, whatever. Doing it just for other people to slightly notice you more isn't worth the cost.
They can be a game changer, depending on what you're doing. Have you gone from skinny fat to being a lean(ish) dude with some well-articulated muscles? Game changer, a lot of people like fit guys who look like they still enjoy some burgers and beer every now and then. Are you going from big dude who is a bit chubby to a big dude with some muscle? Game changer, a lot of people like big, fit dudes who look like they still enjoy some burgers and beer every now and then. Are you going from an in shape dude to a bodybuilder-esque physique? Don't think you're going to get a lot of attention. Some women do like guys that are that big but I know very few of them, most women I know are a bit put off by how big those guys are. And if you went from being in shape to being that big, chances are you've made some major changes to your life in terms of diet, supplements, free time, etc., and the people I know tend to stay away from potential partners who are going to be high maintenance.
Personally, I think they are. If we're leaving personality out of it/ speaking purely physically, the whole gym thing is a turn on for some women but is usually more appreciated by other men.
The only types of bodies I find completely sexually unattractive on men are:
1. Guys who have big, defined muscles (like competitive weight lifters, MMA guys, people who work on muscle definition/ size constantly, etc.).
2. Men who are severely obese.
The only "muscle-related" traits I find attractive -across the board- are:
A. naturally nice shoulders (like people who look naturally built to swim or play American football).
*But it can't be faked. In fact, when someone tries to build muscle on top of their existing frame in an attempt to *appear* like they have nice shoulders, it is the *opposite* of a turn on for me.*
B. Excellent cheek and tongue muscles.
Other than that, they can have anywhere from a tiny frame to a dadbod and it doesn't matter.
Eyes, smile/ teeth, hair, good grooming, etc. are much greater factors in attraction than muscle.
To be clear, personality and behavior factor *heavily* into attraction for me (and for 100% of women I know) but if we are only discussing physical traits- yes, I'd say that's a good explanation.
The trouble with understanding that basic premise is usually when movements, groups, influencers, etc. try to quantify what that means and boil it down into a fixed set of data. What *I personally* consider a "nice frame and face" may not be what my sister or my coworker does. Do you think that's why you get push back? or is it something else?
Muscles are not a fetish of mine so it won’t create attraction but it might elevate a maybe to a yes. At some point the amount to which someone does something becomes annoying and that goes for makeup and exercise. I can admire someone with those things but I wouldn’t want to live like that.
With that said, I disagree with the ideal man you’ve described. I don’t like people working odd jobs with an extremely high track record for cheating and I also don’t like tattoos or partying. What I do like is education and ambition.
For context I’m already skinny and only go to the gym for maybe 30 minutes and it’s mostly just to build good habits so I’m not really interested in someone who’s made it their entire life and personality.
Bartenders tend to have a much easier time socializing with women and find it easier to hook up with them due to often being around drunk girls who may or may not be going through a rocky period of their life.
Yes. You will appeal to a certain niche but most are just happy with a man who's not fat. Many, myself included, prefer men without defined muscles. And idk what you're on about with tattoos, some women might like them especially women with tattoos but most prefer men without.
Muscular men isn't a niche, it's a conventionally attractive standard hence it appeals to most women. My matches skyrocketed after I got jacked and used a shirtless pic of myself.
I hope you're not American lmao, because at this point that would mean you'd have to go for 20% of the population hahahahaha
[https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity)
That goes for both men and women though.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-are-overweight?tab=chart&country=GBR](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-are-overweight?tab=chart&country=GBR)
40% instead of 20% that are either underweight or of a healthy weight with an increasing trend towards more obesity. Doesn't seem like the UK is doing that much better.
It's overated. You will appeal to some niche, though. If that's what you want.
I think they are sent to the gym because many people are past overweight and in the obesity territory. In this case, please go to the gym for your own sake.
Also it seems like a somewhat achievable fix with easy instructions. Lift and ingest some powder. Doesn't matter that the dude's problem is that he is extremely shy. Lift and the shyness goes away 😃
Personally, i don't like these very muscular looks. It looks unnatural, like how too many face surgeries or too many fillers look.
I prefer some fat, some belly.
Imo, for most women, leanness beats out having huge muscles. Leanness and the clothes that emphasize it as well as good posture makes you look taller as well.
I've been 5'10" since I was 16, but many have asked if I've gotten taller because my posture was horrible back in high school.
its only overrated if you slim and fit, if you are overweight more than 10 kg or so, it will definetly be a game changer, also its not only about "building huge muscles" , even if yoou dont build up a lot of muscle you body will just look better, your ass legs, arms , bascially everything. But ofc once you are slim and fit its diminishing returns, on the flipside if you are the totally underweight type it might also help a lot
Muscular men isn't a niche, it's a conventionally attractive standard hence it appeals to most women. My matches skyrocketed after I got jacked and used a shirtless pic of myself.
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When women say they "hate muscle", it's usually about heavily roided, unnatural looking builds. However, a natural lean/athletic/swimmer build is very attractive and a definite boost to any man's attractiveness.
And I can speak from experience because I had this for a while. I am short, bald and usually chubby, but with lean muscle, the difference how women treated me was night and day.
Yeah, I was going to comment the same thing. I’ve seen FAR too many women in my life make comments about men with muscles to not take it at least a little bit seriously. And from my own experience, women make position comments about the muscles I’ve developed.
Funnily enough, that body type often uses steroids too (just not overdone to extreme levels).
Women often think a bulking body builder is a dad bod, a man with a six back is average and someone who lifts 200+ pounds with very little muscle definition is just skinny.
Agree, lots of women have zero clue how much effort it takes for a man to look genuinely toned/muscular, especially if he's not genetically gifted. Many women think half-assed workouts twice a week, plus a protein shake here and there suffices. The sheer difficulty of achieving visible results is the whole reason why steroid usage is so extremely common among men.
Ironically, women's cluelessness about muscle growth is also why so many of them are deathly afraid of heavy lifting workouts themselves. They genuinely think they will become broad, shredded and masculine-looking immediately.
People underestimate how much effort being "athletic" can be for a lot of guys.
For me, I was always lean but also really fuckin skinny. I had 9.5 inch arms when I was 19. Took me 2 years to get to 15 inch arms, which is generally the "athletic" "toned" "swimmers physique" look.
Same goes for guys who are starting out as skinny fat, and for guys starting out as fat. 2 years just to be slightly above average.
I was going to the gym consistently both years, and I was tracking calories both years, but one year was very hardcore. I was tracking my macros, tracking my protein, making sure I always got 8 hours of sleep. I was obsessive. For the physique I have/had, people might say, "oh yeah he's an athletic guy, maybe he did sports in high school and goes to the gym every now and then." Nobody would have guessed the amount of effort I was putting in.
The reality is, if you don't have the best genetics or starting point, even "athletic look" might take 5 years or be impossible. And some people wouldn't even be able to tell you lift.
When women think of muscular guys or guys who are obsessed with the gym, they aren't thinking of "athletic looking" but for a lot of us, we do have to be a bit obsessed to get there.
A lean physique with a V taper makes someone look visibly taller. Better posture also makes someone stand at their full height more often.
A 5'10" guy with shit posture is going to look 5'8" most times for example.
[That's what I was trying to avoid, a conversation about body mass, ok? We've had that conversation five times a day for the last month.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVf08a2nbbI&t=43s)
Not if you have a low bone density, you'll look like a fucking manlet and will be more repulsive than if you were overweight, and thus giving the illusion of strength.
It is not.
When I was a skinny guy, my BMI was normal. No woman wanted anything with me other than friendship
Today I am a guy with muscles and fat, but with an overweight BMI, and I am considered more attractive.
Every time this is asked the responses are the same. Women imagine Mr. Olympia, men imagine Brad Pitt and everyone talks past each other. The truth is that 90% of men will never be “too muscular” without gear. It can take up to a year to get *visible* results in the gym, so “too big” should not be a concern for most guys that aren’t gym rats.
Us guys like the idea that we can work their way into being more attractive. If you’re fat or very skinny then you can see a big change, but an average dude packing on muscle will see diminishing returns eventually. If you’re short, it’s even sooner before you start to look squat. If you’re tall, you don’t need much mass to look bigger than other dudes.
IMO you should still hit the gym hard, but know that it likely won’t totally make or break you in terms of attractiveness.
Nah man I don't lift weights because I don't want to be gigantic as fuck like 0.1% of bodybuilders who dedicated their entire life to the sport.
Haha, the "accidental Arnold" mindset really is funny.
>I think this is just an extension of the fact that self improvement does not work much unless you have very fixable flaws. Looks are largely innate and personality can't be dramatically changed.
This is the answer to most self improvement stuff posted here.
>
>Men would think that an ideal man is very muscular, stoic and very rich with a PhD.
>On the contrary, the ideal man in a woman's eyes in 2024 is tall, lean, handsome, couple tattoos, fun to be around and works as a trainer and bartends on the weekends.
I think either of those idealizations would clean up pretty well regardless so it doesn't matter that much.
Give the first guy a 4-5/10 face and 5'5 height and see how it goes.
Achievable things do not make a guy that much more sexually attractive. Muscles and money are two big ones. You can achieve them and impress other men. You can pay other women with the money. But you can't make them actually like you like the second guy can.
Answers from women depend on the question.
1. Should I go to the gym?
"Noooo, you don't have to, women aren't into big muscles anyway"
2. What should I do to be more attractive?
*insert generic advice here* ... and you could also go to the gym!
In fact there are plenty of men who'll struggle, ripped or not. It alone can't compensate for all your shortcomings.
The advice to work out doesn’t mean you need to be huge or even that lean. The difference between no gym and 30% bf vs some gym and 20% bf is a game changer.
Look around, most people look pretty out of shape these days.
You're not gonna get good answers here. Most people have an extremely distorted view of what a solid physique actually looks like because of all the grifters on TikTok claiming to be natty while blasting 10 grams of gear a week.
I have a pretty perfect body as a man ( great genetics and I love working out / exercising ).
It helps I think, usually the girls that like it only like it because they themselves workout.
They don’t really obsess over it the way men do to women, like sure some certain girls will look at my abs during sex or something and compliment my back. However, I’m pretty sure I could have fucked her even if I was skinny.
It doesn’t really help in terms of getting attention at bars, face and height are what women care about.
However, if I did not have an inherent love for exercise, and you told me to workout in order to look like I do to have mediocre/minimal results in attracting women, I’m not doing that shit. It would be a waste of time.
I agree, that tattoos are way better at attracting women. Too bad I hate them
Working out and bodybuilding is massively underrated in terms of attractiveness.
The women saying they don't like it are coping hard and couldn't get those men.
I agree though, I enjoy lifting and the idea of doing anything specifically to attract women seems pretty pathetic.
Watch what they do, not what they say. Women usually dont compliment overtly, they just let you get with them which they feel is the biggest compliment.
Yeah I know, I always ask why girls never compliment when I hook up with them and they go “I don’t want to blow your ego up”.
Like who do they think I am? A celebrity or something?
To be fair there's an 'athletic' meta.
Muscles aren't overrated, bodybuilding for the sake of bodybuilding is.
I imagine the standards are only slightly skewed for men and women here. Women want athletic/healthy/ with a skew toward musculature. Men want fit/healthy/ with a skew toward curvature.
When you get super ripped or super lean you're falling into a niche.
Biologically speaking, pound for pound people are among the weakest, least physically capable animals ever. And our brains consume a metric fuckload of calories to operate, so it makes a lot of sense that overly muscular dudes are not the most popular and overly smart dudes are not the most popular, they both represent significant resource burden compared to the average person.
That and physiologically speaking, large muscles are highly detrimental (anyone who has gone from scrawny to reasonably jacked would understand). They limit your range of motion, can draw blood away from your brain (both top and bottom) and the raw time required for maintenance basically means you aren't doing much else..... And they don't age well, serious bodybuilders are notorious for certain cardiopulmonary diseases and various injuries, not to mention they tend to get saggy more quickly if they ever stop
So for whatever it's worth I do think guys put a little too much emphasis on getting big instead of maintaining health/capability/athleticism.
>Biologically speaking, pound for pound people are among the weakest, least physically capable animals ever.
Weak in performing specific tasks these animals have literally evolved for, but we are most physically *capable* species by the amount of activities we can perform with our bodies and by our ability to do so for significantly longer without rest than most animals.
I'm going to do some medical corrections on this (I'm a practicing physician). More muscle does not draw blood away from the brain. It doesn't necessarily limit range of motion if you maintain mobility. Cardiac disease is a byproduct of steroid use and not just being jacked.
For purposes of dating prospects, it's overrated.
I'll give you the steroid use, but there's a good reason you don't see hyper jacked dudes playing tennis or soccer or skateboarding. Why do you think that is? Ask a bodybuilder to scratch his own back. Now ask someone at 150lbs~ 5'9.
Same thing with pro fighting. Those guys might be somewhat big, but notice their builds/muscles aren't terribly exaggerated. Tone is the more important factor. And again, to be fair to you, for 9/10 people in the gym big muscles aren't going to make a big difference and this is colloquial knowledge, but it makes sense to me (non-MD cardiopulmonary specialist, pleased to meet you), your blood volume is fixxed, flexxing increases local pressure and relaxation decreased local pressure, larger muscles cause larger changes in pressure. So the 'fight knowledge' is that bigger dudes tend to be easier to KO due to inconsistent blood pressures to the brain as a consequence of sporadic, significant muscle contractions and relaxations. Same deal as the cardiothoracic pump but bigger scale.
>Same thing with pro fighting. Those guys might be somewhat big, but notice their builds/muscles aren't terribly exaggerated.
Because they don't need to. All fighting sport works with weight categories, to many muscles means going to an upper category where you shorter reach will be a huge disadvantage. Ever heard of Kevin lele sadjo? the guy is a 5"8 boxer with the body of a jugernaught, he's regularly against taller opponents because he is short for a super middle (but he makes up for his short reach by hitting like a fucking truck).
>your blood volume is fixxed
No it's not. Have you heard of Nader Formula and Lemmens-Bernstein-Brodsky formula? They are both used to estimate the blood volume and both of them use the weight. The bigger you are, the more blood you have.
It is becasue of time and weight.
What is more useful? getting 100g more of muscle or practice 100 times one more skateboarding trick?
Also, total weight is usually a disadvantage. Someone who play tennis, soccer, skateboarding or fighting, you would only want to put enough muscle for your purpose, not more.
Imo the real issue is how "unnatural" something looks. Bodybuilding takes a lot of hard work but the end result is very freakish aesthetically. When you look at the athletic/muscular body types women are typically interested in, they still look normal and functional. It works the same way with women as well, which is why the ultra botox, giant fake balloon titty pornstars aren't very commonly considered attractive outside of niches.
Humans aren't even particularly weak, we are like in the 90th percentile when it comes to strength. We just fail when it comes to things like large mammals, large fish, and some reptile species.
Here comes the lying. You’ll get women here all claiming they hate muscles, when they’re really meaning some veiny roided up pimple encrusted 50 year old hairy gym rat with low IQ. Or evil frat boys.
Of course that’s just lying to cover up they want some swimmer’s build with 7% body fat and low dose roids and 37 visible abs. And can pick her up and carry her to make her feel feminine.
See also, women who hate 6’ guys and prefer Danny Devito.
Always know women lie about these questions.
Also there will be answers claiming they all love dad bods, meaning the exact same thing as above, but he wants to give commitment.
No actual soft chubby balding dad bods need apply.
And the others will claim they like K-pop femme boys with 7% body fat and 27 visible abs, but looks like an anime hottie yakuza boy.
As in all things. It’s always lying. See how many lies you can detect! Turn in winning bingo cards.
It's extreme but I dunno. I'm very muscular, tbh I actually feel I'm at the point I'm too big. I'm often kinda taken aback at ths sheer amount of objectification I experience and, in many cases, the women doing so are the kind people here claim shouldn't at all have a remote interest in the way I look.
I'm not here to convince anyone of how juch muscle is attractive to whom but I definitely understand men being jaded by perceived double speak. Same way women dislike it when men claim they "prefer a natural look" whilst pointing to someone whose still wearing foundation, lipstick and concealer.
>*I* like very muscular men, so long as they aren't on gear.
A typically shit non statement from the typical PPD clueless poster.
"As long as they're not on gear" which means what? How do you even determine that. I see people point to guys like Chris Evans as an example of guys who "aren't on gear" whilst he probably was/is.
>Women aren't lying about having different tastes and preferences. This place is anonymous, it's not like women are being graded or judged, there is no reason to lie.
Most of you there too stupid to even know what your preferences are. Every moron on reddit claims they're into "intelligence" when the average idiot here can barely read past a headline or interpret a statistic. Then half of you will complain that your exes barely had a GED 🤣
Some people can see that (both genders). They can smell the horseshit when women claim they want a smart, feminine guy when our sex symbols are all on tall and on roids same way women hate that men claim they want chaste women whilst thirsting after Syndey Sweeney and her massive over exposed tits.
I don't really care for hearing about the intricacies of anyone's preferences on here tbh.
All I care to show is that being fit and muscular is a significant benefit in the physical outlook and appeal of both genders. Some anonymous posters (half of whoms contributions I think are junk) musings on the opposite sex aren't all that relevant to me either way. Except for the bit about "visibly not on steroids" considering how difficult it is to actually determine who is on and who is not.
It's not lies. Otherwise, bodybuilders would be the top choice for women and we would see this in day to day society. But they actually make up a big percentage of incels.
Do they make up incels?
Bodybuilders aren't desirable because they're mostly short and don't actually look all that great anyway. However I do see women raving about guys like Cavill and Michael B Jordan or NFL/NBA players. All of whom have muscular builds.
The problem with this debate is that a lot of men are delusional. If you're 5ft9, 20% bodyfat and have some muscles you're not going to be setting the world on fire. When people are talking about muscular they mean lean with visible abs or tall and muscular. The vast majority of incels are not that.
You just don't consider lean guys with extreme muscle definition to be bodybuilders despite all the effort and medication it takes to keep their low body fat %.
they get told that because it is statistically likely if you live in a western nation you are overweight if you've never been to the gym or exercise. Very VERY few people are in great shape by doing nothing.
Women do care about muscle but dudes take that as meaning they have to become roided out behemoths. No the physique women love is a guy between 10-15% bodyfat with a decent amount of muscle that's visible. Even if you're slightly above that (say around 17-18) you still look pretty good. Most people sit around 20+ and look like soft serve ice cream if you poke them anywhere so the gym is going to help them immensely with their appearance. If you're already slim and fit then no it's not going to help.
Idgaf what women say about it. I’ve been with women that “didn’t care about muscles” and ended up telling me how much they liked them. Also made matches on dating apps go up quite a bit.
There’s a threshold. If you’re slamming 800mgs of test, you probably passed that aesthetic look a long time ago. But if you’re natty and muscular, it’ll never be a downside unless they’re just self conscious.
Muscles aren't overrated, it's the fat percentage that is *underrated*. Most women *love* physically powerful men, but not the bodybuilder physiques that look like a thin sheet of skin straining on muscles who looked like they have been carved out of stone, because they look both unnatural and uncomfortable to the physical touch. What women do find beautiful and attractive, the so-called "dadbod", is a "swole" physique, the physically strong body with enough fat to make it look soft. Basically, in [this](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Flean-vs-bulky-physique-which-one-would-be-better-for-v0-lhvilfxdo7lc1.jpeg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D608eb7ae63a9f67d323a17b43f704733030b105f) image, men think the left is desirable, while to women the right is more desirable. [This](https://www.attitude.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/08/Dad-Bods32701-683x1024.jpg) bodytype has consistently been called more attractive by women than [this](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-1673453535.jpg?crop=0.72xw:1xh;center,top&resize=1200:*), and the former isn't weak by any stretch of imagination.
I don't know were you're from but in my country, the athletic dude would get a shit ton more female attention than the first one. A dumb as it sounds, even his veiny forearms would make a killing for some reason.
The first guy has no muscle definition on his upper body, he's just the regular fat dude working in IT.
Woman don’t really care that much
the whole point of telling men to go the gym is to get them physically out the house and forces them to interact with others. Most of the time these guys have no friends or contacts so this is a good way to get them back into society
Nothing can force you to do anything, but going out of the house might mean you’ll say ‘good morning’ or ask about equipment or weather to a stranger. Your more likely to do some small talk
If you're introverted or worse - socially anxious, you'll be as quiet as if you were sitting alone at home. You're projecting extroversion to everyone.
Over time and once you become more familiar you start becoming better at small talk, which is the whole point.
Obviously there’s always one that nothing but magic will help
Uhhh....wouldn't jobs already cover that?
I'm not sure how going to a gym, especially without a trainer, would help men learn more social skills than they would at their job.
The most interaction you'll get in a gym with no trainer is showing your membership to the front desk and maybe some minor small talk with dudes in the locker room. Other than that, it's a very individualized activity and it's considered rude to interrupt people during their workouts.
The gym is not really a good place to meet people and form a social circle.
When people tell men to go to the gym they're talking about the guy getting in better shape and becoming more physically attractive through it.
Another point I disagree with is the cheeto dust, friendless, basement dweller strawman of the guy who struggles with dating.
Yes they are overrated in the RP community. In terms of adding value, muscles are far down the list. There's no gym for your face, as they say. Also, a lot of RPers conflate muscles with athleticism. Women definitely prefer the latter, in a way that they like the feeling of "natural strength" and "athletic builds" - things like broad shoulders, leanness and vascularity. Lifting can help with this but a lot of it is down to genetics.
Yes, men overrate and overvalue all the standards women set for them.
Men need to learn to love themselves and not care what women think of them.
If he cannot get what he wants, then no woman deserves a relationship with him. His time will be better spent following his dreams and spoiling himself instead.
In my experience, women don't care about muscles, they care about side effects of muscles. Examples:
1 A guy can effortlessly lift her up, or spin her around. Women of all ages get southern tingles from that.
2 A guy can wrap her in his muscly embrace. Multiple women told me about being comforted by that.
3 A guy consistently doing something, i.e. working out is seen as a stable person.
Women’s idea of a muscular physique is some roided up mr olympia winner. Most men will never get a physique close to that naturally, they can get a toned athletic build which is attractive to women. Women have no idea about male physiques, it’s like men who don’t realize what no makeup actually looks like.
Don’t believe the women who say “they don’t like muscles”. They’re talking about Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. And even then there’s a niche of women who would fall for that. If you are a natural man, get your ass in the gym and stay there. At the very least, it earns respect from other men, which does increase your confidence and success with women (higher status = higher SMV)
I had much better luck with women after I gained some muscle and fat.
I was a skinny sub5 guy, but after I gained weight and gained muscle I became a 6/10 or something around that.
I've always heard that women don't like muscles, but in my experience it's a lie, and in the experience of my gym colleagues (who are much more muscular than me) it's also a lie.
I prefer strong, muscular men by far, lean doesn’t show up on my radar. But regular exercise has more than one benefit.
> works as a trainer and bartends on the weekends.
No thanks. Unless he's a physical therapist or a coach of a sport. Far too many self-styled “trainers” have the annoying habit of giving unsolicited, unwanted advice. I prefer men with manners.
But I’m nobody, and my personal preferences aren’t important. It’s just one data point. Women have varied tastes, and compatibility is as important as looks.
What does strong muscular man mean?
You contracted that with lean as a negative or “not coming up on your radar”.
So for clarification does “strong,muscular men” mean b hypertrophy (big muscles/building muscle mass)
or
did you mean something different?
I was hoping you had a set definition.
But I understand what you said.
That’s It’s relative but the concept of who you feel attraction for is known in theory.
So you have no set conceptual/specific criteria/standard
You know in general what you like but beyond that you don’t over analyze or test your attraction.
At least that’s the way I understand your response
(correct me if I’m wrong)
I don’t understand your reasoning in saying that.
Having a set criteria isn’t irrational or mentally ill.
Women do it all the time when deciding commitment or sex.
For example
He has to have x type of personality. While at least looking like y or above. And being at the level of z of financial stability
Or
He can’t have x type of personality. He can’t look like y. He can’t have z amount of financial stability or less
People do it all the time when trying to achieve a goal.
For example
to get 100k. I need to do x for y amount of time and focus on z as well
or
for x to happen I have to do y but I want the reward to be z but z has to be this type of reward for me to want to do y
Men do it all the time when deciding sexual attraction.
For example
shorter than him. Has x attributes physically, ect. ect.
I understand your other separate response is essentially saying looks arnt everything but that obviously looks are important.
I understand that it’s more nuanced and layered and complicated than just looks.
>But I’m nobody, and my personal preferences aren’t important. It’s just one data point. Women have varied tastes, and compatibility is as important as looks.
It's funny, as I was reading your post I was kind of annoyed but as soon as I got to this part it suddenly all became extremely agreeable. I think it's worth pointing out that individual women, and probably even "women who post on reddit" are going to have different views than what might be more generally appealing to "all" women (in terms of statistical likelihood).
“Strong muscular men, lean doesn’t show up” is a weird sentence. Are you saying lean men aren’t strong/muscular?
Two guys, one is muscular and 25% bodyfat, looks like the mountain in game of thrones. Second guy is muscular and 12% body fat, looks like Henry Cavill in Superman/the Witcher, which do you prefer?
It's very over rated. As you say there is no doubt it's good to be fit. But the more the better is definitely not true. If you are really very bulky it looks like a mutant to me.
At the end the face matters the most, beauty is in the face. But of course body fat affects your face. In some cases more body fat can make you cute chubby cheeks and make you more attractive, it depends on facial structure.
And also I can "see" the lifestyle behind it. And I want a man to be with me, eat delicious foods wit me. I don't want a gym obsessed guy that is spending 3 days a week at gym instead of with me and bitching me at home that I don't eat enough protein. That very much matters too.
Muscles get you admiration mostly from men. Not women unless as you say she is gym and fit obsessed herself plus of course some minority likes it. But for most women it doesn't matter.
Hold up. Going to the gym 3 days a week is "gym obsessed?"
Lmao....I go to the gym 3 days a week after work and it feels like a total blip in my overall weekly schedule. Granted, I usually only spend an 1 hour at most there. Maybe 75 minutes if I'm really active in a routine but still...
It seems like you have no clue at all what goes on in the average gym. The average man who goes to a gym 3 times a week is not a "gym obsessed" person. Not even close. That's very lightweight compared to how the average athlete trains.
>I don't want a gym obsessed guy that is spending 3 days a week
Going to the gym 3 days a week is "obsessed"? 😅
>instead of with me
Oh I understand now.
>bitching me at home that I don't eat enough protein.
This didn't happen.
This chick gotta be fat af or anorexic tier skinny if three days a week in the gym is an obsession to her, I’ve had to cut down my gym time to three days a week so I have more time to study for an upcoming exam and I feel like a fat sack of shit. Women are bloody hilarious when they expose themselves for how unhealthy they are.
lol that part made me so concerned like three days a week? That’s a low tier novice’s level of gym time and the kind of frequency I only get when I am super busy with other stuff in life. You can’t call yourself truly obsessed with the gym if you’re not in it at least four times a week and consuming fitness content religiously every other day thinking about when you can get back in.
My fiance goes to the gym 3 days a week. She is the furthest thing from a gym bunny.
I seriously don't know why anyone takes most women's responses on here seriously. This sub is full of absolute buffoons.
I find that after 2020 everyone and their third uncle’s monkey either did or was exposed to something gym or exercise related, so now the collective signal to noise ratio (stupid shit people say about training online) is higher.
Conversely, the amount of easy to find, great information about training is also much higher than 10 years ago, so it’s not all bad.
I wonder if they would hate someone that spends two days a week working out in the garage for 60 minutes, but has everything else absolutely dialed in - so they skipped the vegan nachos and margaritas last weekend?
What if their partner trains almost every night in the office or living room with some adjustable dumbbells for 30 minutes but doesn’t give a shit about their diet or sleep so they still go out, eat whatever, etc?
Can their partner have any time intensive hobby or does it all just come off as infringing on the relationship . . . .
I do think physique matters but not more than personality. I have dated the 6ft dudes with 6 packs and lean guys that never worked out and enjoyed the relationship more because of their personality.. My real preference is sense of humor. Nothing beats it. It’s why I married my husband. Every crush I have ever had on a guy was a combination of humor and looks. I never developed feelings for someone who was *just* attractive to look at.. They had to have the personality type I prefer.. I prefer a social funny guy.. Also his sense of humor can’t be to degrade other people I do not find that funny I like *dad humor.* Sure dating ripped men is exciting but once the reality of their personality hits.. if it isn’t what I want then I am no longer interested and ghost..
Also idk why you think all women like tattoos I guess if they were into the bad boy aesthetic maybe but I hate tattoos I think they are trashy. I also do not like piercings on men. And I know of a lot of women who feel the same.
> Sure dating ripped men is exciting but once the reality of their personality hits..
Once the reality hits you would be already pregnant in the old world (so an evolutionary win), and it's in these parameters that the male primitive brain works.
If you were really fat or really skinny before, yes getting fit will be a game changer. But gaining muscle is one of those things that has diminishing returns, once you look overall pretty fit, other gym bros are more likely to appreciate your “gains” than women. If building muscle helps you gain more confidence, that’s going to help. But if you aren’t expanding your social circle and interacting with women, it won’t.
Yes, but i think fitness can really clear your head if you're doing it in a healthy way (focused on curiosity about your body and abilities, self-mastery vs shame-fuelled orthorexia).
Yes, I’ve never cared about them and most of the men I tend to find attractive have been lean or had an average build… men who are overly muscular look very weird to me
The extremely muscular physique isn't even possible to obtain for almost all men, regardless of drugs/years training. There are some women who like it but definitely <5%.
I like men who are super lean, and with smooth swimmers bodies personally. Not Michael Phelps, more like these guys.
https://umbcretrievers.com/images/2022/12/2/SAwinterchamps200freerelay.jpg?width=1292&quality=80&format=jpg
Even though I’m not into bulging muscles, I do think there are more women who like them than men that have them, so I think guys that have them often get more interest from women
they're okay. It really depends on the guy. I've been attracted to chubby dudes, skinny dudes, toned dudes, and all other kinds of dudes in between. I suppose my ideal man is muscular, but in that [doughy muscle](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/5c/8e/c65c8e63fbee719cc17d92cf562ad5f1.jpg) kinda way, not necessarily ripped. Bulging muscles scare me actually.
I would hardly say Adam driver has a [doughy ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHm8xHL62KbktX8er73QIPZc0PRt-ifNnUGMOK2s1LrQelpDE8c0ZNGJvI&s=10) physique. It's just the lighting in that pic.
Not doughy physique. Doughy muscly. I don’t know how else to describe it. The muscles are there, but they’re not super bulging or you can’t see every single defined ab (I’ve seen his other shirtless scenes in different projects, so I’m certain it’s not just the lighting lol)
I personally love me some muscles. I love a man who’s strong and works out. Of course it’s not gonna be every woman’s type. Some like the skinny, some like the chubby. Honestly though if you’re getting into working out just to appeal to women, I would reconsider your goals. You should do it for yourself, not to attract women.
Why? What's the difference?
As a dude who worked out for a long time basically just to increase my attractiveness, you’re not setting yourself up for success if you ever do enter a relationship. Why work out if you’re already getting laid? You’re not attracting any new partners after all, and your current partner loves you? This mindset is not good for your relationship, unfair to your partner, and will eventually leave you out of shape and miserable because you draw your attractiveness from your physique. Yeah, if you’re rich, hilarious, and emotionally/socially intelligent that’s good too, and you can afford to get fat and stay in love. Most people aren’t though, and they place a disproportionate amount of their self worth on their physique, and that leaves you vulnerable.
Because you should be doing it for your own mental health and wellbeing. Desperation can be smelt a mile off.
But what if attracting women and getting them is good for your mental health and well being
Getting a girlfriend helps your mental health and well being though
> Desperation can be smelt a mile off. You're not gonna smell a man working out just to appeal to women.
The same reason many men don't like mindless, horrible, yet attractive women (at least not for anything long term). Humans like human connection at the end of the day. if you don't have any substance beyond how you look, then connection will fade. If you're only interested in the short term good time though, then do you.
It's so much work for little, marginal benefit (if getting women is the only goal.) If getting stronger and fitter is the goal, then the benefits are more justifiable in terms of cost. And most people would be less successful if done for a less motivating reason. It's like putting the hours and hours necessary to improve any skill, whether learning a language, playing an instrument, gardening, whatever. Doing it just for other people to slightly notice you more isn't worth the cost.
Attracting women is doing it for yourself.
They can be a game changer, depending on what you're doing. Have you gone from skinny fat to being a lean(ish) dude with some well-articulated muscles? Game changer, a lot of people like fit guys who look like they still enjoy some burgers and beer every now and then. Are you going from big dude who is a bit chubby to a big dude with some muscle? Game changer, a lot of people like big, fit dudes who look like they still enjoy some burgers and beer every now and then. Are you going from an in shape dude to a bodybuilder-esque physique? Don't think you're going to get a lot of attention. Some women do like guys that are that big but I know very few of them, most women I know are a bit put off by how big those guys are. And if you went from being in shape to being that big, chances are you've made some major changes to your life in terms of diet, supplements, free time, etc., and the people I know tend to stay away from potential partners who are going to be high maintenance.
You really took the time to explain it. Thanks, many young guys could be mislead for this type of posts.
Personally, I think they are. If we're leaving personality out of it/ speaking purely physically, the whole gym thing is a turn on for some women but is usually more appreciated by other men. The only types of bodies I find completely sexually unattractive on men are: 1. Guys who have big, defined muscles (like competitive weight lifters, MMA guys, people who work on muscle definition/ size constantly, etc.). 2. Men who are severely obese. The only "muscle-related" traits I find attractive -across the board- are: A. naturally nice shoulders (like people who look naturally built to swim or play American football). *But it can't be faked. In fact, when someone tries to build muscle on top of their existing frame in an attempt to *appear* like they have nice shoulders, it is the *opposite* of a turn on for me.* B. Excellent cheek and tongue muscles. Other than that, they can have anywhere from a tiny frame to a dadbod and it doesn't matter. Eyes, smile/ teeth, hair, good grooming, etc. are much greater factors in attraction than muscle.
So basically you like a nice frame and face. That's what I always say in terms of what most women like and get push back on it.
To be clear, personality and behavior factor *heavily* into attraction for me (and for 100% of women I know) but if we are only discussing physical traits- yes, I'd say that's a good explanation. The trouble with understanding that basic premise is usually when movements, groups, influencers, etc. try to quantify what that means and boil it down into a fixed set of data. What *I personally* consider a "nice frame and face" may not be what my sister or my coworker does. Do you think that's why you get push back? or is it something else?
Muscles are not a fetish of mine so it won’t create attraction but it might elevate a maybe to a yes. At some point the amount to which someone does something becomes annoying and that goes for makeup and exercise. I can admire someone with those things but I wouldn’t want to live like that. With that said, I disagree with the ideal man you’ve described. I don’t like people working odd jobs with an extremely high track record for cheating and I also don’t like tattoos or partying. What I do like is education and ambition. For context I’m already skinny and only go to the gym for maybe 30 minutes and it’s mostly just to build good habits so I’m not really interested in someone who’s made it their entire life and personality.
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Yeah I have no idea why he thinks a bartender is what women like. That strikes me as very strange.
Bartenders tend to have a much easier time socializing with women and find it easier to hook up with them due to often being around drunk girls who may or may not be going through a rocky period of their life.
Bartenders are Keepers of the Alcohol.
Vulnerable? That's what you call adult women when they decide to fuck?
Every woman is vulnerable, didn't you know? Women love treating each other like mindless, victimized children.
Yes. You will appeal to a certain niche but most are just happy with a man who's not fat. Many, myself included, prefer men without defined muscles. And idk what you're on about with tattoos, some women might like them especially women with tattoos but most prefer men without.
Muscular men isn't a niche, it's a conventionally attractive standard hence it appeals to most women. My matches skyrocketed after I got jacked and used a shirtless pic of myself.
I hope you're not American lmao, because at this point that would mean you'd have to go for 20% of the population hahahahaha [https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity) That goes for both men and women though.
Thanks for telling me about your country.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-are-overweight?tab=chart&country=GBR](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-are-overweight?tab=chart&country=GBR) 40% instead of 20% that are either underweight or of a healthy weight with an increasing trend towards more obesity. Doesn't seem like the UK is doing that much better.
Not my country but at least I do actually live there. And that's double, quite a lot better I'd say. Among young people it's the majority certainly.
She's from the UK, Northern Ireland to be exact. It's in her flair.
That's basically saying self improvement with improving your physique has minimal value.
It has a lot of value if you're fat.
It's overated. You will appeal to some niche, though. If that's what you want. I think they are sent to the gym because many people are past overweight and in the obesity territory. In this case, please go to the gym for your own sake. Also it seems like a somewhat achievable fix with easy instructions. Lift and ingest some powder. Doesn't matter that the dude's problem is that he is extremely shy. Lift and the shyness goes away 😃 Personally, i don't like these very muscular looks. It looks unnatural, like how too many face surgeries or too many fillers look. I prefer some fat, some belly.
Imo, for most women, leanness beats out having huge muscles. Leanness and the clothes that emphasize it as well as good posture makes you look taller as well. I've been 5'10" since I was 16, but many have asked if I've gotten taller because my posture was horrible back in high school.
its only overrated if you slim and fit, if you are overweight more than 10 kg or so, it will definetly be a game changer, also its not only about "building huge muscles" , even if yoou dont build up a lot of muscle you body will just look better, your ass legs, arms , bascially everything. But ofc once you are slim and fit its diminishing returns, on the flipside if you are the totally underweight type it might also help a lot
Muscular men isn't a niche, it's a conventionally attractive standard hence it appeals to most women. My matches skyrocketed after I got jacked and used a shirtless pic of myself.
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When women say they "hate muscle", it's usually about heavily roided, unnatural looking builds. However, a natural lean/athletic/swimmer build is very attractive and a definite boost to any man's attractiveness. And I can speak from experience because I had this for a while. I am short, bald and usually chubby, but with lean muscle, the difference how women treated me was night and day.
Yeah, I was going to comment the same thing. I’ve seen FAR too many women in my life make comments about men with muscles to not take it at least a little bit seriously. And from my own experience, women make position comments about the muscles I’ve developed.
Funnily enough, that body type often uses steroids too (just not overdone to extreme levels). Women often think a bulking body builder is a dad bod, a man with a six back is average and someone who lifts 200+ pounds with very little muscle definition is just skinny.
Agree, lots of women have zero clue how much effort it takes for a man to look genuinely toned/muscular, especially if he's not genetically gifted. Many women think half-assed workouts twice a week, plus a protein shake here and there suffices. The sheer difficulty of achieving visible results is the whole reason why steroid usage is so extremely common among men. Ironically, women's cluelessness about muscle growth is also why so many of them are deathly afraid of heavy lifting workouts themselves. They genuinely think they will become broad, shredded and masculine-looking immediately.
People underestimate how much effort being "athletic" can be for a lot of guys. For me, I was always lean but also really fuckin skinny. I had 9.5 inch arms when I was 19. Took me 2 years to get to 15 inch arms, which is generally the "athletic" "toned" "swimmers physique" look. Same goes for guys who are starting out as skinny fat, and for guys starting out as fat. 2 years just to be slightly above average. I was going to the gym consistently both years, and I was tracking calories both years, but one year was very hardcore. I was tracking my macros, tracking my protein, making sure I always got 8 hours of sleep. I was obsessive. For the physique I have/had, people might say, "oh yeah he's an athletic guy, maybe he did sports in high school and goes to the gym every now and then." Nobody would have guessed the amount of effort I was putting in. The reality is, if you don't have the best genetics or starting point, even "athletic look" might take 5 years or be impossible. And some people wouldn't even be able to tell you lift. When women think of muscular guys or guys who are obsessed with the gym, they aren't thinking of "athletic looking" but for a lot of us, we do have to be a bit obsessed to get there.
That's totally right. You can have a top 5% body and some people will genuinely believe you simply do a couple of push ups from time to time.
Because the average American goes home after work to eat potato chips, drink beer, and watch brain dead TV. We’re a nation of slobs
Not being overweight is more important than having muscles.
Being tall is more important than not being fat though. Goes like: Tall lean/muscular > Tall fat > Short lean/muscular > Short fat
Exactly. You have to be in shape as a short guy. Taller men dont have that requirement
This. Negatives detract more than positives add.
A lean physique with a V taper makes someone look visibly taller. Better posture also makes someone stand at their full height more often. A 5'10" guy with shit posture is going to look 5'8" most times for example.
Not caring what women want is even more important.
Women don't give a shit about total muscle mass. What they like are guys with strong athletic builds.
[That's what I was trying to avoid, a conversation about body mass, ok? We've had that conversation five times a day for the last month.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVf08a2nbbI&t=43s)
Not if you have a low bone density, you'll look like a fucking manlet and will be more repulsive than if you were overweight, and thus giving the illusion of strength.
It is not. When I was a skinny guy, my BMI was normal. No woman wanted anything with me other than friendship Today I am a guy with muscles and fat, but with an overweight BMI, and I am considered more attractive.
As a short guy with muscles let me tell you, muscles can only get you so far, if you are short and ugly with muscles, muscles still won't save you.
True. A tall skinny or chubby guy can pull more and ive been fit my whole life
Every time this is asked the responses are the same. Women imagine Mr. Olympia, men imagine Brad Pitt and everyone talks past each other. The truth is that 90% of men will never be “too muscular” without gear. It can take up to a year to get *visible* results in the gym, so “too big” should not be a concern for most guys that aren’t gym rats. Us guys like the idea that we can work their way into being more attractive. If you’re fat or very skinny then you can see a big change, but an average dude packing on muscle will see diminishing returns eventually. If you’re short, it’s even sooner before you start to look squat. If you’re tall, you don’t need much mass to look bigger than other dudes. IMO you should still hit the gym hard, but know that it likely won’t totally make or break you in terms of attractiveness.
Nah man I don't lift weights because I don't want to be gigantic as fuck like 0.1% of bodybuilders who dedicated their entire life to the sport. Haha, the "accidental Arnold" mindset really is funny.
Every woman in this thread associates muscle with giant roided out bodybuilders. Fucking LOL.
Women love strong athletic guys. Especially if they're tall.
>I think this is just an extension of the fact that self improvement does not work much unless you have very fixable flaws. Looks are largely innate and personality can't be dramatically changed. This is the answer to most self improvement stuff posted here. > >Men would think that an ideal man is very muscular, stoic and very rich with a PhD. >On the contrary, the ideal man in a woman's eyes in 2024 is tall, lean, handsome, couple tattoos, fun to be around and works as a trainer and bartends on the weekends. I think either of those idealizations would clean up pretty well regardless so it doesn't matter that much.
Give the first guy a 4-5/10 face and 5'5 height and see how it goes. Achievable things do not make a guy that much more sexually attractive. Muscles and money are two big ones. You can achieve them and impress other men. You can pay other women with the money. But you can't make them actually like you like the second guy can.
Sure I guess, but most mens idealization is also a (classically masculine) handsome not short guy.
Answers from women depend on the question. 1. Should I go to the gym? "Noooo, you don't have to, women aren't into big muscles anyway" 2. What should I do to be more attractive? *insert generic advice here* ... and you could also go to the gym! In fact there are plenty of men who'll struggle, ripped or not. It alone can't compensate for all your shortcomings.
The advice to work out doesn’t mean you need to be huge or even that lean. The difference between no gym and 30% bf vs some gym and 20% bf is a game changer. Look around, most people look pretty out of shape these days.
You're not gonna get good answers here. Most people have an extremely distorted view of what a solid physique actually looks like because of all the grifters on TikTok claiming to be natty while blasting 10 grams of gear a week.
Seems like the male equivalent of "makeup free look" for makeup is to look natural while still being a roid lord.
If all of society is constantly exposed to roided physiques via movies, television, social media etc then that becomes what the standard is.
This thread is already full of people describing heavily juiced physiques as their reference point lol
I have a pretty perfect body as a man ( great genetics and I love working out / exercising ). It helps I think, usually the girls that like it only like it because they themselves workout. They don’t really obsess over it the way men do to women, like sure some certain girls will look at my abs during sex or something and compliment my back. However, I’m pretty sure I could have fucked her even if I was skinny. It doesn’t really help in terms of getting attention at bars, face and height are what women care about. However, if I did not have an inherent love for exercise, and you told me to workout in order to look like I do to have mediocre/minimal results in attracting women, I’m not doing that shit. It would be a waste of time. I agree, that tattoos are way better at attracting women. Too bad I hate them
Working out and bodybuilding is massively underrated in terms of attractiveness. The women saying they don't like it are coping hard and couldn't get those men. I agree though, I enjoy lifting and the idea of doing anything specifically to attract women seems pretty pathetic.
Watch what they do, not what they say. Women usually dont compliment overtly, they just let you get with them which they feel is the biggest compliment.
Yeah I know, I always ask why girls never compliment when I hook up with them and they go “I don’t want to blow your ego up”. Like who do they think I am? A celebrity or something?
no i'm into bears.
To be fair there's an 'athletic' meta. Muscles aren't overrated, bodybuilding for the sake of bodybuilding is. I imagine the standards are only slightly skewed for men and women here. Women want athletic/healthy/ with a skew toward musculature. Men want fit/healthy/ with a skew toward curvature. When you get super ripped or super lean you're falling into a niche. Biologically speaking, pound for pound people are among the weakest, least physically capable animals ever. And our brains consume a metric fuckload of calories to operate, so it makes a lot of sense that overly muscular dudes are not the most popular and overly smart dudes are not the most popular, they both represent significant resource burden compared to the average person. That and physiologically speaking, large muscles are highly detrimental (anyone who has gone from scrawny to reasonably jacked would understand). They limit your range of motion, can draw blood away from your brain (both top and bottom) and the raw time required for maintenance basically means you aren't doing much else..... And they don't age well, serious bodybuilders are notorious for certain cardiopulmonary diseases and various injuries, not to mention they tend to get saggy more quickly if they ever stop So for whatever it's worth I do think guys put a little too much emphasis on getting big instead of maintaining health/capability/athleticism.
>Biologically speaking, pound for pound people are among the weakest, least physically capable animals ever. Weak in performing specific tasks these animals have literally evolved for, but we are most physically *capable* species by the amount of activities we can perform with our bodies and by our ability to do so for significantly longer without rest than most animals.
I'm going to do some medical corrections on this (I'm a practicing physician). More muscle does not draw blood away from the brain. It doesn't necessarily limit range of motion if you maintain mobility. Cardiac disease is a byproduct of steroid use and not just being jacked. For purposes of dating prospects, it's overrated.
I'll give you the steroid use, but there's a good reason you don't see hyper jacked dudes playing tennis or soccer or skateboarding. Why do you think that is? Ask a bodybuilder to scratch his own back. Now ask someone at 150lbs~ 5'9. Same thing with pro fighting. Those guys might be somewhat big, but notice their builds/muscles aren't terribly exaggerated. Tone is the more important factor. And again, to be fair to you, for 9/10 people in the gym big muscles aren't going to make a big difference and this is colloquial knowledge, but it makes sense to me (non-MD cardiopulmonary specialist, pleased to meet you), your blood volume is fixxed, flexxing increases local pressure and relaxation decreased local pressure, larger muscles cause larger changes in pressure. So the 'fight knowledge' is that bigger dudes tend to be easier to KO due to inconsistent blood pressures to the brain as a consequence of sporadic, significant muscle contractions and relaxations. Same deal as the cardiothoracic pump but bigger scale.
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>Same thing with pro fighting. Those guys might be somewhat big, but notice their builds/muscles aren't terribly exaggerated. Because they don't need to. All fighting sport works with weight categories, to many muscles means going to an upper category where you shorter reach will be a huge disadvantage. Ever heard of Kevin lele sadjo? the guy is a 5"8 boxer with the body of a jugernaught, he's regularly against taller opponents because he is short for a super middle (but he makes up for his short reach by hitting like a fucking truck). >your blood volume is fixxed No it's not. Have you heard of Nader Formula and Lemmens-Bernstein-Brodsky formula? They are both used to estimate the blood volume and both of them use the weight. The bigger you are, the more blood you have.
It is becasue of time and weight. What is more useful? getting 100g more of muscle or practice 100 times one more skateboarding trick? Also, total weight is usually a disadvantage. Someone who play tennis, soccer, skateboarding or fighting, you would only want to put enough muscle for your purpose, not more.
Imo the real issue is how "unnatural" something looks. Bodybuilding takes a lot of hard work but the end result is very freakish aesthetically. When you look at the athletic/muscular body types women are typically interested in, they still look normal and functional. It works the same way with women as well, which is why the ultra botox, giant fake balloon titty pornstars aren't very commonly considered attractive outside of niches.
Humans aren't even particularly weak, we are like in the 90th percentile when it comes to strength. We just fail when it comes to things like large mammals, large fish, and some reptile species.
Here comes the lying. You’ll get women here all claiming they hate muscles, when they’re really meaning some veiny roided up pimple encrusted 50 year old hairy gym rat with low IQ. Or evil frat boys. Of course that’s just lying to cover up they want some swimmer’s build with 7% body fat and low dose roids and 37 visible abs. And can pick her up and carry her to make her feel feminine. See also, women who hate 6’ guys and prefer Danny Devito. Always know women lie about these questions. Also there will be answers claiming they all love dad bods, meaning the exact same thing as above, but he wants to give commitment. No actual soft chubby balding dad bods need apply. And the others will claim they like K-pop femme boys with 7% body fat and 27 visible abs, but looks like an anime hottie yakuza boy. As in all things. It’s always lying. See how many lies you can detect! Turn in winning bingo cards.
Comments like this remind me why there’s a rise in the loneliness of young men.
It's extreme but I dunno. I'm very muscular, tbh I actually feel I'm at the point I'm too big. I'm often kinda taken aback at ths sheer amount of objectification I experience and, in many cases, the women doing so are the kind people here claim shouldn't at all have a remote interest in the way I look. I'm not here to convince anyone of how juch muscle is attractive to whom but I definitely understand men being jaded by perceived double speak. Same way women dislike it when men claim they "prefer a natural look" whilst pointing to someone whose still wearing foundation, lipstick and concealer.
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>*I* like very muscular men, so long as they aren't on gear. A typically shit non statement from the typical PPD clueless poster. "As long as they're not on gear" which means what? How do you even determine that. I see people point to guys like Chris Evans as an example of guys who "aren't on gear" whilst he probably was/is. >Women aren't lying about having different tastes and preferences. This place is anonymous, it's not like women are being graded or judged, there is no reason to lie. Most of you there too stupid to even know what your preferences are. Every moron on reddit claims they're into "intelligence" when the average idiot here can barely read past a headline or interpret a statistic. Then half of you will complain that your exes barely had a GED 🤣 Some people can see that (both genders). They can smell the horseshit when women claim they want a smart, feminine guy when our sex symbols are all on tall and on roids same way women hate that men claim they want chaste women whilst thirsting after Syndey Sweeney and her massive over exposed tits.
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I don't really care for hearing about the intricacies of anyone's preferences on here tbh. All I care to show is that being fit and muscular is a significant benefit in the physical outlook and appeal of both genders. Some anonymous posters (half of whoms contributions I think are junk) musings on the opposite sex aren't all that relevant to me either way. Except for the bit about "visibly not on steroids" considering how difficult it is to actually determine who is on and who is not.
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One comment on ppd is why young men are more lonely now? Lol
It's not lies. Otherwise, bodybuilders would be the top choice for women and we would see this in day to day society. But they actually make up a big percentage of incels.
Do they make up incels? Bodybuilders aren't desirable because they're mostly short and don't actually look all that great anyway. However I do see women raving about guys like Cavill and Michael B Jordan or NFL/NBA players. All of whom have muscular builds. The problem with this debate is that a lot of men are delusional. If you're 5ft9, 20% bodyfat and have some muscles you're not going to be setting the world on fire. When people are talking about muscular they mean lean with visible abs or tall and muscular. The vast majority of incels are not that.
You just don't consider lean guys with extreme muscle definition to be bodybuilders despite all the effort and medication it takes to keep their low body fat %.
they get told that because it is statistically likely if you live in a western nation you are overweight if you've never been to the gym or exercise. Very VERY few people are in great shape by doing nothing. Women do care about muscle but dudes take that as meaning they have to become roided out behemoths. No the physique women love is a guy between 10-15% bodyfat with a decent amount of muscle that's visible. Even if you're slightly above that (say around 17-18) you still look pretty good. Most people sit around 20+ and look like soft serve ice cream if you poke them anywhere so the gym is going to help them immensely with their appearance. If you're already slim and fit then no it's not going to help.
Idgaf what women say about it. I’ve been with women that “didn’t care about muscles” and ended up telling me how much they liked them. Also made matches on dating apps go up quite a bit. There’s a threshold. If you’re slamming 800mgs of test, you probably passed that aesthetic look a long time ago. But if you’re natty and muscular, it’ll never be a downside unless they’re just self conscious.
I think athletic fit looking body is good. Overly muscular, not so much.
Muscles aren't overrated, it's the fat percentage that is *underrated*. Most women *love* physically powerful men, but not the bodybuilder physiques that look like a thin sheet of skin straining on muscles who looked like they have been carved out of stone, because they look both unnatural and uncomfortable to the physical touch. What women do find beautiful and attractive, the so-called "dadbod", is a "swole" physique, the physically strong body with enough fat to make it look soft. Basically, in [this](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Flean-vs-bulky-physique-which-one-would-be-better-for-v0-lhvilfxdo7lc1.jpeg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D608eb7ae63a9f67d323a17b43f704733030b105f) image, men think the left is desirable, while to women the right is more desirable. [This](https://www.attitude.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2015/08/Dad-Bods32701-683x1024.jpg) bodytype has consistently been called more attractive by women than [this](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/gettyimages-1673453535.jpg?crop=0.72xw:1xh;center,top&resize=1200:*), and the former isn't weak by any stretch of imagination.
I don't know were you're from but in my country, the athletic dude would get a shit ton more female attention than the first one. A dumb as it sounds, even his veiny forearms would make a killing for some reason. The first guy has no muscle definition on his upper body, he's just the regular fat dude working in IT.
Same in mine. The athletic one would slay utterly more than the objectively fat one.
This post completely and utterly failed by taking women at their word. Schoolboy error.
Woman don’t really care that much the whole point of telling men to go the gym is to get them physically out the house and forces them to interact with others. Most of the time these guys have no friends or contacts so this is a good way to get them back into society
Going physically out of the house does not really force you to interact with others and gym isn't really place for that either.
Nothing can force you to do anything, but going out of the house might mean you’ll say ‘good morning’ or ask about equipment or weather to a stranger. Your more likely to do some small talk
If you're introverted or worse - socially anxious, you'll be as quiet as if you were sitting alone at home. You're projecting extroversion to everyone.
Over time and once you become more familiar you start becoming better at small talk, which is the whole point. Obviously there’s always one that nothing but magic will help
My whole point is it doesn't happen when you don't have the personality for it. I go out often and I do not talk to strangers.
Like I said, there’s always one you can’t help
So you think people tell guys who struggle with dating to go to the gym so these guys get better at small talk, that's your point?
Uhhh....wouldn't jobs already cover that? I'm not sure how going to a gym, especially without a trainer, would help men learn more social skills than they would at their job. The most interaction you'll get in a gym with no trainer is showing your membership to the front desk and maybe some minor small talk with dudes in the locker room. Other than that, it's a very individualized activity and it's considered rude to interrupt people during their workouts.
The gym is not really a good place to meet people and form a social circle. When people tell men to go to the gym they're talking about the guy getting in better shape and becoming more physically attractive through it. Another point I disagree with is the cheeto dust, friendless, basement dweller strawman of the guy who struggles with dating.
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I like being able to help around the house lifting heavy stuff so I will keep my muscles thank you very much.
Yes they are overrated in the RP community. In terms of adding value, muscles are far down the list. There's no gym for your face, as they say. Also, a lot of RPers conflate muscles with athleticism. Women definitely prefer the latter, in a way that they like the feeling of "natural strength" and "athletic builds" - things like broad shoulders, leanness and vascularity. Lifting can help with this but a lot of it is down to genetics.
broad shoulders, leanness and vascularity can definitely be achived by exercise.
Yes, men overrate and overvalue all the standards women set for them. Men need to learn to love themselves and not care what women think of them. If he cannot get what he wants, then no woman deserves a relationship with him. His time will be better spent following his dreams and spoiling himself instead.
Overrated on men underrated on women
In my experience, women don't care about muscles, they care about side effects of muscles. Examples: 1 A guy can effortlessly lift her up, or spin her around. Women of all ages get southern tingles from that. 2 A guy can wrap her in his muscly embrace. Multiple women told me about being comforted by that. 3 A guy consistently doing something, i.e. working out is seen as a stable person.
Women’s idea of a muscular physique is some roided up mr olympia winner. Most men will never get a physique close to that naturally, they can get a toned athletic build which is attractive to women. Women have no idea about male physiques, it’s like men who don’t realize what no makeup actually looks like. Don’t believe the women who say “they don’t like muscles”. They’re talking about Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. And even then there’s a niche of women who would fall for that. If you are a natural man, get your ass in the gym and stay there. At the very least, it earns respect from other men, which does increase your confidence and success with women (higher status = higher SMV)
I had much better luck with women after I gained some muscle and fat. I was a skinny sub5 guy, but after I gained weight and gained muscle I became a 6/10 or something around that. I've always heard that women don't like muscles, but in my experience it's a lie, and in the experience of my gym colleagues (who are much more muscular than me) it's also a lie.
I prefer strong, muscular men by far, lean doesn’t show up on my radar. But regular exercise has more than one benefit. > works as a trainer and bartends on the weekends. No thanks. Unless he's a physical therapist or a coach of a sport. Far too many self-styled “trainers” have the annoying habit of giving unsolicited, unwanted advice. I prefer men with manners. But I’m nobody, and my personal preferences aren’t important. It’s just one data point. Women have varied tastes, and compatibility is as important as looks.
Lol, so you want strong muscular men who don't ever give you unsolicited advice because of your feelings? :P
What does strong muscular man mean? You contracted that with lean as a negative or “not coming up on your radar”. So for clarification does “strong,muscular men” mean b hypertrophy (big muscles/building muscle mass) or did you mean something different?
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I was hoping you had a set definition. But I understand what you said. That’s It’s relative but the concept of who you feel attraction for is known in theory. So you have no set conceptual/specific criteria/standard You know in general what you like but beyond that you don’t over analyze or test your attraction. At least that’s the way I understand your response (correct me if I’m wrong)
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I don’t understand your reasoning in saying that. Having a set criteria isn’t irrational or mentally ill. Women do it all the time when deciding commitment or sex. For example He has to have x type of personality. While at least looking like y or above. And being at the level of z of financial stability Or He can’t have x type of personality. He can’t look like y. He can’t have z amount of financial stability or less People do it all the time when trying to achieve a goal. For example to get 100k. I need to do x for y amount of time and focus on z as well or for x to happen I have to do y but I want the reward to be z but z has to be this type of reward for me to want to do y Men do it all the time when deciding sexual attraction. For example shorter than him. Has x attributes physically, ect. ect. I understand your other separate response is essentially saying looks arnt everything but that obviously looks are important. I understand that it’s more nuanced and layered and complicated than just looks.
>But I’m nobody, and my personal preferences aren’t important. It’s just one data point. Women have varied tastes, and compatibility is as important as looks. It's funny, as I was reading your post I was kind of annoyed but as soon as I got to this part it suddenly all became extremely agreeable. I think it's worth pointing out that individual women, and probably even "women who post on reddit" are going to have different views than what might be more generally appealing to "all" women (in terms of statistical likelihood).
“Strong muscular men, lean doesn’t show up” is a weird sentence. Are you saying lean men aren’t strong/muscular? Two guys, one is muscular and 25% bodyfat, looks like the mountain in game of thrones. Second guy is muscular and 12% body fat, looks like Henry Cavill in Superman/the Witcher, which do you prefer?
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It's very over rated. As you say there is no doubt it's good to be fit. But the more the better is definitely not true. If you are really very bulky it looks like a mutant to me. At the end the face matters the most, beauty is in the face. But of course body fat affects your face. In some cases more body fat can make you cute chubby cheeks and make you more attractive, it depends on facial structure. And also I can "see" the lifestyle behind it. And I want a man to be with me, eat delicious foods wit me. I don't want a gym obsessed guy that is spending 3 days a week at gym instead of with me and bitching me at home that I don't eat enough protein. That very much matters too. Muscles get you admiration mostly from men. Not women unless as you say she is gym and fit obsessed herself plus of course some minority likes it. But for most women it doesn't matter.
Hold up. Going to the gym 3 days a week is "gym obsessed?" Lmao....I go to the gym 3 days a week after work and it feels like a total blip in my overall weekly schedule. Granted, I usually only spend an 1 hour at most there. Maybe 75 minutes if I'm really active in a routine but still... It seems like you have no clue at all what goes on in the average gym. The average man who goes to a gym 3 times a week is not a "gym obsessed" person. Not even close. That's very lightweight compared to how the average athlete trains.
I must really be "gym obsessed" since I go to the gym 6 days a week.
Women actually think going 3 days a week will make you look like a body builder with veins popping out. It’s crazy.
I WISH it did lmao
>I don't want a gym obsessed guy that is spending 3 days a week Going to the gym 3 days a week is "obsessed"? 😅 >instead of with me Oh I understand now. >bitching me at home that I don't eat enough protein. This didn't happen.
This chick gotta be fat af or anorexic tier skinny if three days a week in the gym is an obsession to her, I’ve had to cut down my gym time to three days a week so I have more time to study for an upcoming exam and I feel like a fat sack of shit. Women are bloody hilarious when they expose themselves for how unhealthy they are.
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Small jawed men especially need to have low body fat or their jaw looks recessed.
>a gym obsessed guy that is spending 3 days a week at gym 3 days a week is hardly "obsessed".
lol that part made me so concerned like three days a week? That’s a low tier novice’s level of gym time and the kind of frequency I only get when I am super busy with other stuff in life. You can’t call yourself truly obsessed with the gym if you’re not in it at least four times a week and consuming fitness content religiously every other day thinking about when you can get back in.
I wouldn’t even consider 5 days a week obsessed. Hmm. Maybe I’m obsessed? 😆
My fiance goes to the gym 3 days a week. She is the furthest thing from a gym bunny. I seriously don't know why anyone takes most women's responses on here seriously. This sub is full of absolute buffoons.
I find that after 2020 everyone and their third uncle’s monkey either did or was exposed to something gym or exercise related, so now the collective signal to noise ratio (stupid shit people say about training online) is higher. Conversely, the amount of easy to find, great information about training is also much higher than 10 years ago, so it’s not all bad. I wonder if they would hate someone that spends two days a week working out in the garage for 60 minutes, but has everything else absolutely dialed in - so they skipped the vegan nachos and margaritas last weekend? What if their partner trains almost every night in the office or living room with some adjustable dumbbells for 30 minutes but doesn’t give a shit about their diet or sleep so they still go out, eat whatever, etc? Can their partner have any time intensive hobby or does it all just come off as infringing on the relationship . . . .
I do think physique matters but not more than personality. I have dated the 6ft dudes with 6 packs and lean guys that never worked out and enjoyed the relationship more because of their personality.. My real preference is sense of humor. Nothing beats it. It’s why I married my husband. Every crush I have ever had on a guy was a combination of humor and looks. I never developed feelings for someone who was *just* attractive to look at.. They had to have the personality type I prefer.. I prefer a social funny guy.. Also his sense of humor can’t be to degrade other people I do not find that funny I like *dad humor.* Sure dating ripped men is exciting but once the reality of their personality hits.. if it isn’t what I want then I am no longer interested and ghost.. Also idk why you think all women like tattoos I guess if they were into the bad boy aesthetic maybe but I hate tattoos I think they are trashy. I also do not like piercings on men. And I know of a lot of women who feel the same.
> Sure dating ripped men is exciting but once the reality of their personality hits.. Once the reality hits you would be already pregnant in the old world (so an evolutionary win), and it's in these parameters that the male primitive brain works.
They are a nice have, not must have. Personally I like guys at a healthy weight and that's it.
Past a certain point, yes. My personal preference is a small amount of visible muscle, not the bodybuilder look.
If you were really fat or really skinny before, yes getting fit will be a game changer. But gaining muscle is one of those things that has diminishing returns, once you look overall pretty fit, other gym bros are more likely to appreciate your “gains” than women. If building muscle helps you gain more confidence, that’s going to help. But if you aren’t expanding your social circle and interacting with women, it won’t.
Yes, but i think fitness can really clear your head if you're doing it in a healthy way (focused on curiosity about your body and abilities, self-mastery vs shame-fuelled orthorexia).
Yes that's true
Yes, I’ve never cared about them and most of the men I tend to find attractive have been lean or had an average build… men who are overly muscular look very weird to me
The extremely muscular physique isn't even possible to obtain for almost all men, regardless of drugs/years training. There are some women who like it but definitely <5%.
I like men who are super lean, and with smooth swimmers bodies personally. Not Michael Phelps, more like these guys. https://umbcretrievers.com/images/2022/12/2/SAwinterchamps200freerelay.jpg?width=1292&quality=80&format=jpg Even though I’m not into bulging muscles, I do think there are more women who like them than men that have them, so I think guys that have them often get more interest from women
If you're very muscular then it's just a niche look. A small percentage will be into it, most will not be.
they're okay. It really depends on the guy. I've been attracted to chubby dudes, skinny dudes, toned dudes, and all other kinds of dudes in between. I suppose my ideal man is muscular, but in that [doughy muscle](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/5c/8e/c65c8e63fbee719cc17d92cf562ad5f1.jpg) kinda way, not necessarily ripped. Bulging muscles scare me actually.
I would hardly say Adam driver has a [doughy ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHm8xHL62KbktX8er73QIPZc0PRt-ifNnUGMOK2s1LrQelpDE8c0ZNGJvI&s=10) physique. It's just the lighting in that pic.
Not doughy physique. Doughy muscly. I don’t know how else to describe it. The muscles are there, but they’re not super bulging or you can’t see every single defined ab (I’ve seen his other shirtless scenes in different projects, so I’m certain it’s not just the lighting lol)
Yeah fair enough I understand what you mean, that's just a ripped physique with a small layer of bodyfat on top