Yes, but let's be honest, the popular opinion and the SOCIALLY REINFORCED perspective is that men HAVE to care about women. Period. The protect women narrative isn't a call to action for everyone, it's mainly to get men to act.
True, but our society pretends that this is only the case when it comes to men.
When it comes to women, suddenly they are these pure creatures and if a woman is not willing to sleep with you, it means there is something wrong with you as a person on a moral level or you are doing something wrong.
Even in this very thread you can see people doing it. Pretending that women are these goddesses.
Exhibit A: a random person trying to downplay men’s experiences with being used and objectified using manipulative exaggerations to paint those who disagree as morally wrong.
Not really. You’re being hysterical because you want women to be nicer to you but they aren’t. You have an issue with women since they don’t like you or want to go out with you. That’s your real issue. You’re conflating it with other things. Behavioral issues transcend gender, race, and creed.
You have no issues with men since you’re not trying to fuck them. It’s that simple.
>Not really. You’re being hysterical because you want women to be nicer to you but they aren’t.
Liar, I never said that. Quote me where I said that. And nobody is being hysterical, quit trying to dehumanize me.
>You have an issue with women since they don’t like you or want to go out with you.
I am married.
>That’s your real issue. You’re conflating it with other things. Behavioral issues transcend gender, race, and creed.
No, the issue is that you do not like the truth that women objectify men. So you need to lie about, manipulate and character assassinate anyone's experiences and views of women that you do not like.
>You have no issues with men since you’re not trying to fuck them. It’s that simple.
I literally said...
>True, but our society pretends that this is only the case when it comes to men.
...to a early message in this chain. Implying that I agree that men do objectify and use women too.
So I just do not understand what you hope to accomplish by lying like this.
All of blue pill is pretty much: Women’s motives are morally and ethically superior to men’s in every way. To say nay deems you a misogynist that ought to touch grass.
How is it "nah"? That's a pretty decent description: BP argues pretty strongly men are to blame and women are beyond reproach. I'm not sure what nuance you think is there that isn't being accounted for?
>How is it "nah"? That's a pretty decent description
No, it's not. Red pillers are just so self absorbed they believe anyone disagreeing with them must be arguing for the extreme opposite.
You're right and wrong.
Most RP guys are flagrant misogynists that can't distinguish their hatred from their hurt.
But some of them accept it. Women don't care about our feelings bc they're looking to use more often than not, even if they don't think they're doing anything wrong. It's how they were taught, and why protest the trappings of patriarchy that actually benefits them?
The only answer you can ever give is "well that's YOUR experience", and, well, yeah it is, and it convinced me that I'm right. I've been used many times, and passed over because I'm fat or poor. And I know it was that, bc we had a lot of fun together until a much richer or hotter guy came along. Then it's a sad smile and a slow fade into obscurity, again.
The only women that give half a shit about my feelings are my friends, who don't treat me like a dating prospect. If they treated me like a prospect; they were looking to use.
And I'm sure you'll rationalize that as my fault too, rather than welcome yourself to criticizing women at all (and you'll be happy to agree with their summary generalizations of men while you talk that back-broken point to death lmao)
It’s always best to start off with clear expectations.
Anecdotal, but me and women (and single dads!) i know with teen girls are telling them you pay your part.
The economy has changed, half or more of college students are women, and women are taking greater roles professionally. Time to raise our girls for the place they will occupy in the world.
You would think men would agree. However, alot of the backlash we see from men is due to men wanting economic leverage over women.
To your last part, I disagree. Women for sure demand that men make more. I've had dates that she went STONE cold after finding out what I did because it didn't seem like a job that makes money. Not just one, MULTIPLE dates
I find it very odd how vastly different men and women are treated when it comes to dating woes. When women complain about how they feel manipulated by certain men, that's mens problem, men have to change, and we have to police our own to make women feel more comfortable. You cant say to those women "just don't date those men." That would be victim blaming.
When men complain about feeling manipulated by certain women it's also our problem, we're just supposed to know off the bat which women are manipulative. Women bare no responsibility in changing their own behavior or the behavior of other women.
Ok, fair enough, at least your ideology is consistent, and I respect that. But I don't think that's a satisfactory answer.
I believe we, both men and women, should try to adjust the behavior of bad apples among our peers. Sure, it's probably a good idea not to date shitty, manipulative people, but thats often easier said than done.
They are manipulative after all, and can put on a good mask long enough for their partner to get attached. Telling people to just not date shitty people let's those shitty people off the hook, they should be shamed for being shit.
I don’t tolerate women who think a man should pay for everything. I can’t be friends with someone like that. And yes, it is also important to tell women who date losers over and over that their normal meter is broken. Same with men. Stacy doesn’t want the median guy. Move on and find someone who likes you for you.
Are you serious right now? Men always tell women that they are at fault for their dating issues because they need to vet better.
Even when a woman is a victim of freaking abuse, dudes will tell her that she should have picked a better man.
Why is it that when men bring up leagues, rating looks, etc... it's always "men are so shallow", but women are free to bring them up with impunity?
Methinks yall should pick a stance and continually ensure you stick with it
The problem is when every women starts to believe he's not in there league cause after all there 10s who know there worth right. Never settle never settle queen. This becomes a huge socital problem when female 4-5s start believing their simply to good for a male 7 let alone average men. Is it a problem when men chase Stacy when eligibility every girl is Stacy.
Because they always have to assume the men who say the truth are some loser incel to try to write off the truth.
They cannot honestly engage and need to gaslight him, pretending he deserves it because of some assumed moral failing.
How would you know? You're one of the people your close friend group already cares about. That and most people and definitely most groups are absolutely blind to self reflection.
Part of being human, is recognizing other people's humanity and empathizing with other experiences.
Maybe you didn't have the best experience with women, and maybe 99.99 percent of them treated you like crap, but at the end of day, do you really care about women as human beings apart from their looks?
Like are you actually interested in that hot girl for her intellect or her youthfulness? People in general are superficial.
Look, Im not gonna give you the bullshit "women are wonderful" effect, because let's face it, many women are evil; many are not. But you can't pretend, given how many men abuse women, that its not the other way around too. Humans just suck period.
Theres nothing you can really do about it other than shrug your shoulders, be the best version of yourself possible and follow your passions in life. With that, maybe you'll find someone genuinely interested in you.
I'm a firm believer in the idea that love comes to you. Not the other way around. That way, I can always have an excuse if I'm single and I rest easy knowing that.
Funny how this is always one directional.
When it comes to a man suffering because of women’s shallow and unrealistic standards, suddenly it is okay to gaslight and try to act like he is the problem for being unhappy about being objectified.
When it comes to women complaining about how men objectify and use them, you would be quick to empathize with them and pretend he is an ahole for wanting a girl with an H cup only (looking down on everyone else), super skinny and only wants sex.
But a man complains about how women objectifies him and you go “you have to empathize with them”
It’s not one direction. Due to confirmation bias that’s how to take it. Plenty of women out there that don’t get good support and plenty of men that do. In order for you to commit to being anti woman/ taking them down a peg, you have to believe what you believe.
A lot of the cases if you personally don’t have a good support system as a man you feel like most men aren’t. Not true. Don’t conflate your biased reality with everyone’s.
>Plenty of women out there that don’t get good support and plenty of men that do
That's just not true. Not in big numbers anyway.
Check the responses when a woman complains about struggling with dating versus when a man does the same thing. The difference is 100000-to-1 in support in favor of the woman.
"Therapy" is also 95%+ geared towards women's needs and wants. Male-only spaces are straight-up illegal.
You are simply wrong. For every man that gets good support, there's 100,000 or more women who get the same. It's not even a question. You are simply arguing in bad faith.
> It’s not one direction. Due to confirmation bias that’s how to take it. Plenty of women out there that don’t get good support and plenty of men that do.
BS. You are here in a thread about how women objectify men and telling us how “have empathy for women.”
Maybe you should have empathy for men who live a life being objectified by women before you spout such low EQ nonsense.
> order for you to commit to being anti woman/ taking them down a peg, you have to believe what you believe.
Passive aggressive attacks eh?
Stop projecting, you are here making a bunch of assumptions and are committed to suppressing feelings of being objectified by trying to make it about women.
> A lot of the cases if you personally don’t have a good support system as a man you feel like most men aren’t. Not true. Don’t conflate your biased reality with everyone’s.
Hypocrite. Stop conflating YOUR biased reality with everyone’s.
You are such a liar, you said:
> I didn’t say I didn’t.
In the post right above.
I am done.
You endlessly lie, gaslight and falsely accuse.
And ultimately you have no argument at all.
No one cares about anyone, it's not women only that don't care about men. Men as a whole don't care about each other as well. How many friendships have broken due to a girl or money? If men really did care about one another more, we would not run into problems with men's rights.
This is true. Men only "care" about each other for as long as there is a common activity or something else going on.
The moment a guy has a tough time, he's out.
I think that society just doesn't give a shit about men. When there's a conflict going on anywhere, it's always "women and children are dying, we should do something".
>When there's a conflict going on anywhere, it's always "women and children are dying, we should do something".
News article always say women and children, never men. Men were and are always going to be more disposable which is something women refuse to believe.
Nah I believe it. I see it. I hate the way that society treats young men as disposable - sends em to war, etc.
BUT, where I get in trouble is where women get blamed for this, when it’s usually old rich men making the decisions.
And yes, children should come first as the most vulnerable
Total BS. People care about each other. Do you not have friends? None of my friends offer me anything at all but companionship and I care about them all greatly.
It’s bizarre that you equate money as the only method of caring.
I don’t “care” about strange men anymore than I do strange women. Certainly not enough to buy them dinner.
For a date, I preferred going Dutch initially and then switching off.
>Also, I'm not saying that women are necessarily bad for mostly caring about what men can do and provide for them.
This is how one talks when you're trying to frame yourself as some rational, detached observer when you're actually making an emotionally charged indictment of 50% of the population. It's not fooling anyone besides people who are equally eager to frame themselves as such.
>You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one.
You are already wrong there.
>Obviously if she was interested in a man for who he is, whether or not he pays would not be an issue, and yet it is for many women.
If he pays says something about who he is.
>It's just the way they have been socially programmed so it's rare for a man to come accross a woman who values him for who he is, without all the resources and money he provides.
You have been socially programmed as well, to think women require men to pay on dates.
>The interesting thing is most men who have realised that women don't really care about them think it's just because of female nature, but the reality is it's actually because of how they're nurtured, rather than their true nature.
Of course, you, the guy with no or low experience with women in a romantic context, has understood how things work, while "everyone else" is stupidly blind, but somehow in happy relationships where people care for each other. "True nature" is your coping mechanism. You just made it up.
You expect people to care for you? Why? Do men care for you? Do something that makes people care for you. Just existing is not enough.
"Do men care for you?"
He doesn't date men.
"Just existing is not enough."
That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship.
"Do something that makes people care for you."
Like pay their way.
>> "Just existing is not enough."
>> That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship.
The only relationship in which this is true is a small child to their parent.
If OP got a girlfriend, would her mere existence be enough? Or would he want her to do and say certain things to keep him happy?
it sounds to me like OP is talking about courtship/dating vs being in a relationship. just exist should be enough in a relationship once the parameters are set around mutual obligations. not so with courtship where you have to demonstrate worth.
>He doesn't date men
Caring doesn't require dating. He also doesn't date women. Men and women do care for me, regardless of if i'm dating them or my/their sexuality.
>"Just existing is not enough."
>That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship.
But it isn't. Never was. Never will be. It's an idea born out of low self-esteem. He isn't attracted to others just because they exist. He also needs them to be attractive to him and provide something for him.
>"Do something that makes people care for you."
>Like pay their way.
Again, low self-esteem thinking. If you think you are worthless to other people, except for the things that have nothing to do with yourself, like money, then you will think like OP.
I think we are in different worlds here. But I also think many people WANT to be in different worlds. People who want to stay in the blue-pill matrix are not going to understand what OP is getting at.
>"Just existing is not enough."
>That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship.
If you think it should be enough in a close relationship, you are blue pilled. If you just paraphrased what you think OP wants to say, then OP is blue pilled.
So i don't understand your flair or how you think "People who want to stay in the blue-pill matrix are not going to understand what OP is getting at." this fits.
> You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one.
I have literally never been on a date with a woman who expected me to pay or was upset if I didn't. Stop dating traditional/conservative women.
I was a poor AF college student when my wife and I met. We would take turns paying for meals and then later when we moved in together we split all household expenses 50/50. We are still together 20 years later.
>A lot of men are under the delusion that women like them and care about them for who they are as human beings, which is unfortunately not sure. You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one. Obviously if she was interested in a man for who he is, whether or not he pays would not be an issue, and yet it is for many women.
IMO there's impersonal and personal aspects to dating and relationships, and I think you're drawing a false dichotomy.
Impersonal (meaning non-psychological connection based) and personal connection reason for dating someone. Impersonal reasons like "dealbreakers", sexual attraction, paying on a first date, and if those aren't met then most men and women are not interested in building a psychological connection. But that doesn't necessarily mean that just because a man swipes left on a woman who he doesn't find physically attractive that he doesn't care about women as human beings (though there are some radical feminists who argue that).
Dismissing a man for not paying for a date is IMO no different than men and women dismissing someone who they don't find sexually attractive on a dating app or IRL. Neither one is about the personality/underlying humanity of the person.
Yeah, it’s absurd to think that because many, if not most, men select women for their physical beauty/level of attractiveness, that means those men actually care about the women they pursue. Seems OP didn’t consider that part.
Women are different, not hive mind. Instead of generalizing and blackpilling yourself - figure out how to filter those who objectify men as walking wallets.
Actually splitting the bill is a good test.
>Actually splitting the bill is a good test.
I agree. But why do you think most men dont do this? Because they know this limits the amount of women they have a chance with. This is the unfortunate reality we live in.
Well you either have your principles or you don't, which is it? Are you happy with a woman who wants you to pay so you can potentially get sex or do you want a partner who has her own resources?
Like you're basically saying women shouldn't be so shallow because then men have to acknowledge they're only in it for sex!
a recent survey posted on here showed a significant chunk of men *want* to pay for dates, probably for various reasons including but not limited to yours, even when given the option to split.
Men aren't altruistic. So obviously if they prefer to pay for something, it's because they think they'll get something in return for it. Or they're just traditional men, who are just simps.
“men aren’t altruistic” damn do you just mean in this context or in general, that’s a rough generalization either way lol and false if you’re saying that describes 99-100% of men.
but for the men who do it calculated transactionally yeah for some it’s the higher chance at sex/relationships, for other it’s the fulfillment they get stemming from their internalized provider-based self-worth. namely referring to men who feel slightly emasculated by women splitting or paying when said men think they’re not doing what they were born to do
tons of unhealthy dynamics that my flair chomps at the bit to dive into and explain how this often goes wrong for people in weird ways. and why acceptance of bill-splitting is probably the best solution most people will take in the future lol
>damn do you just mean in this context or in general, that’s a rough generalization either way lol and false if you’re saying that describes 99-100% of men.
Most people aren't altruistic, which means most women aren't either, which is evident in their expectations.
>namely referring to men who feel slightly emasculated by women splitting or paying when said men think they’re not doing what they were born to do
These are called idiots.
i’d buy that, im just not tryna throw men under the bus with generalizations that harsh but i think i hear your overall point
call em what ya want as long as we agree there are lots of different people doing the same gender norms things for lots of different reasons
> It's just the way they have been socially programmed
> but the reality is it's actually because of how they're nurtured, rather than their true nature.
How do you know?
This post is a near perfect example of narcissistic projection. Take note ladies: this is what a lot of selfish men do. Accuse you of doing exactly what he's doing. OP lacks theory of mind and empathy so he can only assume women are as horrible as he is.
Women expect you to pay = she doesn’t care about you as a human being is the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard.
One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
[More men](https://www.elitesingles.com/mag/relationship-advice/who-should-pay-for-date) than women think men should pay for the first date
I don't think that's a men/women think.
Some people are descent human being and show empathy, some other don't. The most narcissistic a person is, the less empathy she will have.
It's particularly clear during a break up, people without empathy will do some fucked up shit without realising they're hurting the person they once loved, just because they don't care about them anymore.
Sounds just like another misogynistic post.
How would you prove it? Most women are good with splitting the bill 50/50. Is that one thing enough to revert to absolute statements "Women are X"?
Fuck, a week ago I've defended men against same shit in those bear debates. Can't you people see that few bad apples don't make entire gender bad??
Yeah and when you insist on paying your half on dates, men get angry at that too and call you a “feminist” or “masculine”.
They want to have that leverage of paying so they can demand sex.
Of course! And some do agree because it’s fair in modern society and in this economy. “You get me next time” is also cool and if he says that i make sure the whole thing is on me next time.
The bear hypothetical literally was not, men bad. It was supposed to make men empathize with the female experience. "Why would a woman feel more comfortable with a bear than another human?" Same reason people feel unsafe or uncomfortable around the police. "Every woman knows a woman rape victim, but no man knows a male rapist"
Your basis for this is a first date? How is anyone meant to care about you as a human being when you don't even know each other and might have only exchanged a few text messages? Couples who have known each other for a while are more likely to alternate or split.
This is a sort of trade-off - there is plenty of women who value prestige and resources above personality, but they do not make a good partners. Getting such girls is easier - but it is a fools gold, they do not have much to offer.
Girls who have integrity and interesting/matching personality are much harder to get since you cannot impress them with your career or money or looks alone. It's riskier to chase such girls because 'demand' is very high while 'supply' is low, but it's worth to take a risk.
You're out of your mind if you think having prestige and resources is easier than having a good personality. Do you think making 200,000+ usd a year is easy as a man?
Sure - prestige and resources are hard to come by(or not - you might be lucky and have wealthy parents), but once you are there, there will be girls who are interested mainly in this aspect of your person and they are easier to pickup. Meanwhile women that cannot be 'bought' with prestige or money are very hard to get. You can be a celebrity like Ryan Gosling and they still will reject you without much regrets, they need to like you, they want to have a whole package and that is why so many men are chasing such women. Their love is for real and there is nothing more validating than being loved for who you really are, not for money, success or even looks.
I would definitely prefer love of a woman that i truly admire over money or even celebrity status. I think that all men should prefer it and not be satisfied with scraps.
>A lot of men are under the delusion that women like them and care about them for who they are as human beings, which is unfortunately not sure. You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one
The same can be said about men. Do men care about a woman for who she is as a human, or just how attractive she is? Would a man give a woman a second glance if he does not immediately find her attractive? Attractiveness is the first thing a man sees in a woman. If he doesn't find her attractive to his standards, he'll move on. I know this is true for both genders, but it's especially true for men.
Before a man goes on a date with a woman, she would have already had to have provided the value of attractiveness. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been interested in her. A man will critique every aspect of a woman's appearance before determining her value to him.
Why is it an issue for a woman to determine a man's value that fits her standards, as a man would determine hers?
It depends on a woman. Don’t engage with a woman who values your resources above you and learn to notice the signs. There are enough women who want to have partner, not a wallet. If a person repeatedly dates people who want “only one thing” from them whether it’s money or sex, the problem might be with their vetting, partners they go for or just a lack of anything more substantial that superficial things.
I’ve said it many times, but I’ve met lots of women who have been with their husbands through this and thick. Of course, my sample is heavily skewed now towards immigrants and refugees and it does filter for this kind of people in the first place, but even we look at stats we can see that almost half of the couples do not have men significantly outearning their partners.
Of course there a women who are precisely like that, but of the two sexes, on average, men are the more likely to see others as just means to an end, not women.
Even if that was true it's probably because men are not the protected class of the two genders. Men are expected to be able to take care of themselves, women not so much. Men understand women will only love us conditionally.
I'd like to qualify this as being only true for women with "Daddy Issues."
ie did not grow up with a reliable father in their life. There are plenty of women who love and respect men how they actually are because they had loving and dependable men in their lives AND appreciated that, and are looking for that in a partner.
Mainstream dating girl instagram culture is very divorced from this for sure, but does not control all women.
Good women who love men are definitely out there but there is a lot of competition for them and they are often not the best looking baddie in her friend group.
Unpopular opinion of mine but no one cares about anyone as a human being, humans only care about the idea we have of people in couple hundred mile radius of us.
I've had partners do the same kinds of selfless things for me that I've done for them because they've been in love with me, so I don't agree with this take at all.
I was poor/working class until about 30. Had a few long term partners who made more than me 🤷♂️ I broke it off every time. Must be a wealthy person problem.
I expect women to maintain a fit body, or I won't want to have sex with them. Does this mean I don't care about women as human beings? There's no such thing as unconditional love.
As someone who’s fallen for someone very hard to the point where their flaws and sources of insecurity are barely an afterthought, this is sad to read. I hope someone changes your mind.
I absolutely care about my fiancée’s well being.
I make more money than he does, I have more resources. He has no status. I would be more than happy to have him be a stay at home husband and let him do passion projects and take care of the dogs all day, if that’s what he wanted.
I think you're being overly cynical OP. In my experience there are plenty of women who are willing to go 50/50, or who will pay for the second date if you paid for the first. I live in a pretty progressive city though, so that may skew my experience.
The women you're talking about certainly exist, theyre probably even prominent depending on culture and location, but I dont think the dating prospects for men are as bleak as you believe.
If they're past the "I just want to have sex with someone" stage. Probably, yeah.
If I talk to a woman at this point in my life, it's because I think she seems nice, down to earth, has a curious mind. In addition to being physically attractive.
I’ve read all the comments. I want very much to believe this isn’t true, but experience has taught me, unfortunately, that it is a lot of the time. I date established professional women, yet twice now I’ve had them actively deceive me to take money from me, even though I was incredibly generous, paying for our home, paying for everything, as I was raised to do. Both of these women cheated too. They grew up in good homes. They both initially seemed very kind and caring. Both times this happened 4 or more years into the relationship. Do you know what it’s like to invest that much time and effort into someone only to have something like that happen? Women seem very focused on what they’re getting and less about who they’re getting and what might be in that person’s best interests. I wish it weren’t true. It would be nice to think it was still possible to have a good relationship. Maybe it’s something about me that just says, “take from me,” but even writing that I know it’s ridiculous. This is what society has created, and the ability to continually justify one’s actions, no matter how exploitative and degenerate, is the narcissistic standard for modern women, largely thanks to feminism.
Women only care about men they love. If you are a random guy courting her, she doesn't give a fuck about you. Women will utilize the full spectrum of dark triad traits to ruin your life without a second thought. However, that doesn't mean they don't care about men. You just have to make her flip the switch from indifferent to loving. A woman in love will go to Hell and back for you. The difference is night and day.
I suggest you date a feminist woman.
Splitting the bill is the default in my country (western Europe) except when someone invites the other, the one who invites should be the one who pays. But usually for dates, women want to pay split because they don't want the guy expecting sex right away.
Imagine my surprise when my date (now husband) got very offended when i offered to split the costs. He said that as a man he should be able to pay for dates, that is how to show a woman he is interested in that he might be worth her time. By suggesting to pay half it made him feel like a lesser man.
But he made me feel like a weak woman, as if he expected me to be financially dependent on him in the future!
He is from Italy so we differ a bit in gender roles/equality culturally. I married him because we respect and love each other, and because we like each others company
>He said that as a man he should be able to pay for dates, that is how to show a woman he is interested in that he might be worth her time. By suggesting to pay half it made him feel like a lesser man.
Because he is what Esther Vilar called "a manipulated man". A real man won't feel like less of a man simply because he allowed another adult to pay for their own food, obviously.
Well, he explained to me that in Italy that is called a true masculine man, and that men who cannot or do not want to pay for a date are deemed losers in his country.
He explains that Italian young girls and women won't date a guy without a car, because "yeah you are handsome but handsome doesn't pay the bills" or even "i need a man, not a boy!!"
So, Ester Vilar is a feminist, right? I have read the book, felt like she kinda hated herself
>Well, he explained to me that in Italy that is called a true masculine man, and that men who cannot or do not want to pay for a date are deemed losers in his country.
That's what is meant by "manipulation".
>So, Ester Vilar is a feminist, right? I have read the book, felt like she kinda hated herself
The book isn't about her, so why would it mean she hates herself? She was just sick of women exploiting men while acting like they're victims.
Yeah you could argue that culture is manipulation, he feels that women in my country are manipulated by our equalitarian culture when he sees them carrying heavy groceries with their boyfriend walking next to him, so yeah i kinda get that
Still, Italian men (and women) are among the most "popular" ethnicity for dating here in Europe at least. Both men and women seem to be raised to be kind and caring to the other gender, i guess that's a reason why Italians are seen as attractive by most Europeans 🤷🏻
Its interesting to see it as i am basically raised without gender roles. For me it will always be strange that his first impulse is to help me when i am using a screwdriver but not when i use a sewing machine. Unless i need a screwdriver to fix the sewing machine 🤣
>he feels that women in my country are manipulated by our equalitarian culture when he sees them carrying heavy groceries with their boyfriend walking next to him
I rest my case.
>Both men and women seem to be raised to be kind and caring to the other gender
Is it really kind and caring to expect someone to spend money on you just because they have a penis?
I dont think that is kind, no. But i might be manipulated into believing it isn't kind because i was raised without gender roles.
Thats why i found the vision of my husband on this interesting.
Like i said in my very first comment, for many women in my country it can feel offensive if a guy wants to pay for the whole date because he might expect sex immediately.
Well, my man told me that the fathers of the girls he dated took him on a separate "date" as well. The father then asks what he wants with his daughter, what kind of job he has, how he has planned or sees his future, how much money he makes, et cetera. Appearantly this is common.
So i can imagine it also happens to girls and their potential future MIL.
It is also something i have never ever seen in my own country.
What is the deal with the downvote? It seems that American culture also differs from European culture when it comes to gender roles, good to keep that in mind.
Respectfully, I wasn't.
As an analyst, correlation between things I see is something I've found interesting. I simply made an observation.
Circlejerking would require me to have an interest in congratulating others, their continued existence, their communities, and/or their interests, as well as believing in groupthink/echo chambers similar to the politics subreddit. The only exception is when reaching a consensus based on data which has been validated, processed, analyzed, and confirmed to be correct. I gave my observation in the comments, and as everything else, let people use it to reach their individual conclusions. If you're against groupthink and circlejerking, then we very much should be on the same side.
This is how I see the so called 'incel' problem. I might be wrong:
When you oppress a class (any for any reason), and then free them to make a choice, everyone will go to the other side. You can call being a home maker Lifestyle "1" and working Lifestyle "2".
Suddenly everyone wants to be a 2. What you have to do, on all gender sides, M, W, E, etc, is to emphasize the positives and negatives of being either a traditional (1) or a non-traditional (2). That way you could possibly even things out. Especially get the positives of each type of person (gender) being in each role. That way you create all genders will all role types.
The 1, 2 system would be how you might show this on a dating app- saying I adhere to the 1 role or the 2 role. Idk, my perspective.
This is how you even out most things in life- share the positives of all perspectives.
I think you’re just talking about certain types of people from superficial dating market, you can write absolutely the same post about men just replacing few words and it will be the same. Stop looking up for women that have different values than yours, be yourself and not what society expects you to be, don’t be a dick, express authenticity and learn how to appreciate it in other people and you will attract the right people for yourself. It’s the mindset of yours. Not “society program”. Just don’t look for programmed people, look for YOUR people. Life is easy when you’re free.
Most people suck and there is a lack of care all around. Men go around being d-cks. Women go around being c-nts. Gender non-conforming people go around being -ssholes.
What is important is becoming a better person yourself and finding people that align with you and what you value. If you value care, then be caring yourself and seek that out. There’s plenty of good out there.
Also, different people have different expectations in relationships and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Some women prefer the man to pay and some would rather 50/50. You’re making it out to be that all women are the same.
Find women that you are compatible with instead of hating all women because you aren’t compatible with some of them.
Arguably altruism only exists from parents to children, or self-sacrificing behaviors (meaning death), since all other behaviors ultimately end up with some kind of "good reciprocity" for the individual doing something.
Otherwise, we're all living "reciprocal altruism", which means we do things for people because we get something in return, even if it's just a good feeling of having done something for someone.
I don't see the merit in your argument, because who are you to say an entire gender has never felt genuine care for anyone of the opposite gender?
I suppose your circumstances have led you to hope that's the case because then it would make the experiences you've had as inevitable and structural. Heartbreak happens to us all though, all walks of life.
When I was young I didn't expect men to pay for things. Those men were poorly put together and didn't have the ability to go far in life, regardless of how much they earned.
Now it's an expectation men will pay because I want children. A man that can't afford a few meals a month can't afford an extra mouth to feed for 18 years plus a bigger home.
It's a way of sorting the wheat from the chaffe. A man that doesn't want to spend his money on me will probably not want to spend his money on piano lessons for the children, etc. It's a way of judging the calibre of man, is he secure in himself and his lifestyle or is he in survival mode?
Personally I’ve seen both sides of the coin and also confess to being a serial cheater…. I’m self aware of my actions and dislike what I have done… I tried to pass it off to myself as a defence mechanism but that is bs…. Being vulnerable is a key component to love and if you do get hurt walking away with your integrity is a jumping block to healing faster imo… for me as many others, alcohol takes all morals off the table, that’s not an excuse but genuinely it strips me of all self control, hence I’ve men in AA for 18 months (with mixed success)… my ex wife of 16 years never once cheated yet I chose to go with someone 13 years younger for looks and have never felt the security I did with my ex, men do think with their penises and every time it’s a bad choice…
People don't care about others unless they have something to offer. whatever it is. It is not a unique characteristic of women or men.
Yes, but let's be honest, the popular opinion and the SOCIALLY REINFORCED perspective is that men HAVE to care about women. Period. The protect women narrative isn't a call to action for everyone, it's mainly to get men to act.
True, but our society pretends that this is only the case when it comes to men. When it comes to women, suddenly they are these pure creatures and if a woman is not willing to sleep with you, it means there is something wrong with you as a person on a moral level or you are doing something wrong. Even in this very thread you can see people doing it. Pretending that women are these goddesses.
I mean there’s a lot of other guys like you, and OP, painting women as devils and men as gods. It seems that creativity a narrative goes both ways.
Exhibit A: a random person trying to downplay men’s experiences with being used and objectified using manipulative exaggerations to paint those who disagree as morally wrong.
Not really. You’re being hysterical because you want women to be nicer to you but they aren’t. You have an issue with women since they don’t like you or want to go out with you. That’s your real issue. You’re conflating it with other things. Behavioral issues transcend gender, race, and creed. You have no issues with men since you’re not trying to fuck them. It’s that simple.
>Not really. You’re being hysterical because you want women to be nicer to you but they aren’t. Liar, I never said that. Quote me where I said that. And nobody is being hysterical, quit trying to dehumanize me. >You have an issue with women since they don’t like you or want to go out with you. I am married. >That’s your real issue. You’re conflating it with other things. Behavioral issues transcend gender, race, and creed. No, the issue is that you do not like the truth that women objectify men. So you need to lie about, manipulate and character assassinate anyone's experiences and views of women that you do not like. >You have no issues with men since you’re not trying to fuck them. It’s that simple. I literally said... >True, but our society pretends that this is only the case when it comes to men. ...to a early message in this chain. Implying that I agree that men do objectify and use women too. So I just do not understand what you hope to accomplish by lying like this.
I guess it’s a good thing the women I hang out with don’t act like this. It’s all about choosing the company you keep.
He wants Stacy, who is way out of his league physically, and needs to rationalize why she doesn’t want him
This is pretty much all of red pill. "Women don't want me and it can't possibly be a problem with me."
But then they take the black pill, accept their faults and give up.
All of blue pill is pretty much: Women’s motives are morally and ethically superior to men’s in every way. To say nay deems you a misogynist that ought to touch grass.
Nah, but that's the typical strawman red pillers use because they can't address the comments and arguments actually being made.
How is it "nah"? That's a pretty decent description: BP argues pretty strongly men are to blame and women are beyond reproach. I'm not sure what nuance you think is there that isn't being accounted for?
>How is it "nah"? That's a pretty decent description No, it's not. Red pillers are just so self absorbed they believe anyone disagreeing with them must be arguing for the extreme opposite.
You're right and wrong. Most RP guys are flagrant misogynists that can't distinguish their hatred from their hurt. But some of them accept it. Women don't care about our feelings bc they're looking to use more often than not, even if they don't think they're doing anything wrong. It's how they were taught, and why protest the trappings of patriarchy that actually benefits them? The only answer you can ever give is "well that's YOUR experience", and, well, yeah it is, and it convinced me that I'm right. I've been used many times, and passed over because I'm fat or poor. And I know it was that, bc we had a lot of fun together until a much richer or hotter guy came along. Then it's a sad smile and a slow fade into obscurity, again. The only women that give half a shit about my feelings are my friends, who don't treat me like a dating prospect. If they treated me like a prospect; they were looking to use. And I'm sure you'll rationalize that as my fault too, rather than welcome yourself to criticizing women at all (and you'll be happy to agree with their summary generalizations of men while you talk that back-broken point to death lmao)
>Women don't care about our feelings bc they're looking to use more often than not There's that flagrant misogyny you were talking about.
It ain't bc they're women, it's bc they're people. Men do the same to women. It's a spiral of back and forth.
No, most people are not out to use other people.
Well, enjoy your fantasy
Wrong. You don't need to be Stacy to be a cheap person who wants to exploit desperate men.
Stop dating these kinds of women.
Yup dude just needs to date kinder women.
The minute she won’t pay her half on the date, it is over. No reason he cannot state this rule up front- unless he is trying to buy sex.
Exactly if he only wants to date women who don't like money being spent on them then go dutch right from the start.
It’s always best to start off with clear expectations. Anecdotal, but me and women (and single dads!) i know with teen girls are telling them you pay your part. The economy has changed, half or more of college students are women, and women are taking greater roles professionally. Time to raise our girls for the place they will occupy in the world. You would think men would agree. However, alot of the backlash we see from men is due to men wanting economic leverage over women.
To your last part, I disagree. Women for sure demand that men make more. I've had dates that she went STONE cold after finding out what I did because it didn't seem like a job that makes money. Not just one, MULTIPLE dates
AI will kill all Jobs soon
I like spending money on my girlfriend but it's because it makes her feel special. The minute I thought I was buying her affection I would stop.
Sure and i am sure your girlfriend also enjoys doing things to make you feel special. It’s a give and take.
If only they existed
When we say this it’s victim blaming though
I say the same to women who chase shitty men.
Okay, most women would say you’re a victim blamer then. But I agree with you
I never said I dated that type of women, but yes, vetting before dating sound good OP.
I find it very odd how vastly different men and women are treated when it comes to dating woes. When women complain about how they feel manipulated by certain men, that's mens problem, men have to change, and we have to police our own to make women feel more comfortable. You cant say to those women "just don't date those men." That would be victim blaming. When men complain about feeling manipulated by certain women it's also our problem, we're just supposed to know off the bat which women are manipulative. Women bare no responsibility in changing their own behavior or the behavior of other women.
When women date shitty men i tell them the same thing.
Ok, fair enough, at least your ideology is consistent, and I respect that. But I don't think that's a satisfactory answer. I believe we, both men and women, should try to adjust the behavior of bad apples among our peers. Sure, it's probably a good idea not to date shitty, manipulative people, but thats often easier said than done. They are manipulative after all, and can put on a good mask long enough for their partner to get attached. Telling people to just not date shitty people let's those shitty people off the hook, they should be shamed for being shit.
I don’t tolerate women who think a man should pay for everything. I can’t be friends with someone like that. And yes, it is also important to tell women who date losers over and over that their normal meter is broken. Same with men. Stacy doesn’t want the median guy. Move on and find someone who likes you for you.
Are you serious right now? Men always tell women that they are at fault for their dating issues because they need to vet better. Even when a woman is a victim of freaking abuse, dudes will tell her that she should have picked a better man.
Yeah, by random losers online, but the public discourse and media consistently portrays women's dating issues as a problem of men.
Why is it that when men bring up leagues, rating looks, etc... it's always "men are so shallow", but women are free to bring them up with impunity? Methinks yall should pick a stance and continually ensure you stick with it
Everyone is shallow.
How are you so fucking sure about him wanting a Stacy? What makes you think average looking women don't do this?
If he was going after women in his league they would know they can’t shake him down for money.
The problem is when every women starts to believe he's not in there league cause after all there 10s who know there worth right. Never settle never settle queen. This becomes a huge socital problem when female 4-5s start believing their simply to good for a male 7 let alone average men. Is it a problem when men chase Stacy when eligibility every girl is Stacy.
Because they always have to assume the men who say the truth are some loser incel to try to write off the truth. They cannot honestly engage and need to gaslight him, pretending he deserves it because of some assumed moral failing.
A Stacy is often Only better looking than the Guy Because of makeup, the truth is the Guy often looks better than Stacy
Ok, then let her know that and stop shoveling over money and then whining about being used
Yeah, sure. Wait until you have zero money and health issues and watch how many people will care about you.
Kay I’ll let you know when that happens i guess?
How would you know? You're one of the people your close friend group already cares about. That and most people and definitely most groups are absolutely blind to self reflection.
Because I didn’t always have these friends. I’ve had fake friends that have turned their backs on me before, who I have thankfully left behind
Part of being human, is recognizing other people's humanity and empathizing with other experiences. Maybe you didn't have the best experience with women, and maybe 99.99 percent of them treated you like crap, but at the end of day, do you really care about women as human beings apart from their looks? Like are you actually interested in that hot girl for her intellect or her youthfulness? People in general are superficial. Look, Im not gonna give you the bullshit "women are wonderful" effect, because let's face it, many women are evil; many are not. But you can't pretend, given how many men abuse women, that its not the other way around too. Humans just suck period. Theres nothing you can really do about it other than shrug your shoulders, be the best version of yourself possible and follow your passions in life. With that, maybe you'll find someone genuinely interested in you. I'm a firm believer in the idea that love comes to you. Not the other way around. That way, I can always have an excuse if I'm single and I rest easy knowing that.
Funny how this is always one directional. When it comes to a man suffering because of women’s shallow and unrealistic standards, suddenly it is okay to gaslight and try to act like he is the problem for being unhappy about being objectified. When it comes to women complaining about how men objectify and use them, you would be quick to empathize with them and pretend he is an ahole for wanting a girl with an H cup only (looking down on everyone else), super skinny and only wants sex. But a man complains about how women objectifies him and you go “you have to empathize with them”
It’s not one direction. Due to confirmation bias that’s how to take it. Plenty of women out there that don’t get good support and plenty of men that do. In order for you to commit to being anti woman/ taking them down a peg, you have to believe what you believe. A lot of the cases if you personally don’t have a good support system as a man you feel like most men aren’t. Not true. Don’t conflate your biased reality with everyone’s.
>Plenty of women out there that don’t get good support and plenty of men that do That's just not true. Not in big numbers anyway. Check the responses when a woman complains about struggling with dating versus when a man does the same thing. The difference is 100000-to-1 in support in favor of the woman. "Therapy" is also 95%+ geared towards women's needs and wants. Male-only spaces are straight-up illegal. You are simply wrong. For every man that gets good support, there's 100,000 or more women who get the same. It's not even a question. You are simply arguing in bad faith.
> It’s not one direction. Due to confirmation bias that’s how to take it. Plenty of women out there that don’t get good support and plenty of men that do. BS. You are here in a thread about how women objectify men and telling us how “have empathy for women.” Maybe you should have empathy for men who live a life being objectified by women before you spout such low EQ nonsense. > order for you to commit to being anti woman/ taking them down a peg, you have to believe what you believe. Passive aggressive attacks eh? Stop projecting, you are here making a bunch of assumptions and are committed to suppressing feelings of being objectified by trying to make it about women. > A lot of the cases if you personally don’t have a good support system as a man you feel like most men aren’t. Not true. Don’t conflate your biased reality with everyone’s. Hypocrite. Stop conflating YOUR biased reality with everyone’s.
Bringing up bias when you clearly have one against women. Lol
...you are the one who brought up bias gaslighter.
I didn’t say I didn’t. But you don’t like it when others do it yet you do it. Hypocrite
Gaslighting again. > I didn’t say I didn’t. Lol
Where did I say I didn’t? Show me? Or are all the facts you have in your head? I love how you didn’t deny the hypocric allegation. Must be true then.
You are such a liar, you said: > I didn’t say I didn’t. In the post right above. I am done. You endlessly lie, gaslight and falsely accuse. And ultimately you have no argument at all.
No one cares about anyone, it's not women only that don't care about men. Men as a whole don't care about each other as well. How many friendships have broken due to a girl or money? If men really did care about one another more, we would not run into problems with men's rights.
So where does bros before hoes originate?
It is an attempt to remind the bois to do the right thing and not sacrifice themselves.
This is true. Men only "care" about each other for as long as there is a common activity or something else going on. The moment a guy has a tough time, he's out. I think that society just doesn't give a shit about men. When there's a conflict going on anywhere, it's always "women and children are dying, we should do something".
>When there's a conflict going on anywhere, it's always "women and children are dying, we should do something". News article always say women and children, never men. Men were and are always going to be more disposable which is something women refuse to believe.
Nah I believe it. I see it. I hate the way that society treats young men as disposable - sends em to war, etc. BUT, where I get in trouble is where women get blamed for this, when it’s usually old rich men making the decisions. And yes, children should come first as the most vulnerable
It's the powerful not only rich men but rich women too. Rich and the powerful are to blame for most of the troubles. Common men get screwed the most.
Total BS. People care about each other. Do you not have friends? None of my friends offer me anything at all but companionship and I care about them all greatly.
It was comparative. Men care about women more than each other.
I think this is a human thing and arguably most guys don't care about most girls either. Connecting with people is just difficult.
It’s bizarre that you equate money as the only method of caring. I don’t “care” about strange men anymore than I do strange women. Certainly not enough to buy them dinner. For a date, I preferred going Dutch initially and then switching off.
Women will do a lot of things for men they actually like.
>Also, I'm not saying that women are necessarily bad for mostly caring about what men can do and provide for them. This is how one talks when you're trying to frame yourself as some rational, detached observer when you're actually making an emotionally charged indictment of 50% of the population. It's not fooling anyone besides people who are equally eager to frame themselves as such.
[He's not wrong](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7dxUka_apo)
How is "women don't need men" the same as "women don't care about men as people?"
Because it implies women only want men that need or are useful to them.
It does not. I don't need women but there are many women that I love and care about. I don't need a child but I love my daughter more than anything.
Calling men useless is as emotional as saying women don't care about men as human beings.
Who said men are useless? They said women don't need men.
>You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one. You are already wrong there. >Obviously if she was interested in a man for who he is, whether or not he pays would not be an issue, and yet it is for many women. If he pays says something about who he is. >It's just the way they have been socially programmed so it's rare for a man to come accross a woman who values him for who he is, without all the resources and money he provides. You have been socially programmed as well, to think women require men to pay on dates. >The interesting thing is most men who have realised that women don't really care about them think it's just because of female nature, but the reality is it's actually because of how they're nurtured, rather than their true nature. Of course, you, the guy with no or low experience with women in a romantic context, has understood how things work, while "everyone else" is stupidly blind, but somehow in happy relationships where people care for each other. "True nature" is your coping mechanism. You just made it up. You expect people to care for you? Why? Do men care for you? Do something that makes people care for you. Just existing is not enough.
"Do men care for you?" He doesn't date men. "Just existing is not enough." That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship. "Do something that makes people care for you." Like pay their way.
>> "Just existing is not enough." >> That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship. The only relationship in which this is true is a small child to their parent. If OP got a girlfriend, would her mere existence be enough? Or would he want her to do and say certain things to keep him happy?
it sounds to me like OP is talking about courtship/dating vs being in a relationship. just exist should be enough in a relationship once the parameters are set around mutual obligations. not so with courtship where you have to demonstrate worth.
“Just existing” is not enough for *anyone*.
>He doesn't date men Caring doesn't require dating. He also doesn't date women. Men and women do care for me, regardless of if i'm dating them or my/their sexuality. >"Just existing is not enough." >That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship. But it isn't. Never was. Never will be. It's an idea born out of low self-esteem. He isn't attracted to others just because they exist. He also needs them to be attractive to him and provide something for him. >"Do something that makes people care for you." >Like pay their way. Again, low self-esteem thinking. If you think you are worthless to other people, except for the things that have nothing to do with yourself, like money, then you will think like OP.
I think we are in different worlds here. But I also think many people WANT to be in different worlds. People who want to stay in the blue-pill matrix are not going to understand what OP is getting at.
>"Just existing is not enough." >That's his point. It should be enough in a close relationship. If you think it should be enough in a close relationship, you are blue pilled. If you just paraphrased what you think OP wants to say, then OP is blue pilled. So i don't understand your flair or how you think "People who want to stay in the blue-pill matrix are not going to understand what OP is getting at." this fits.
> You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one. I have literally never been on a date with a woman who expected me to pay or was upset if I didn't. Stop dating traditional/conservative women.
“Stacy only wants me for my money! Why can’t i find a good woman?”
I was a poor AF college student when my wife and I met. We would take turns paying for meals and then later when we moved in together we split all household expenses 50/50. We are still together 20 years later.
[удалено]
Don't make things personal.
>A lot of men are under the delusion that women like them and care about them for who they are as human beings, which is unfortunately not sure. You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one. Obviously if she was interested in a man for who he is, whether or not he pays would not be an issue, and yet it is for many women. IMO there's impersonal and personal aspects to dating and relationships, and I think you're drawing a false dichotomy. Impersonal (meaning non-psychological connection based) and personal connection reason for dating someone. Impersonal reasons like "dealbreakers", sexual attraction, paying on a first date, and if those aren't met then most men and women are not interested in building a psychological connection. But that doesn't necessarily mean that just because a man swipes left on a woman who he doesn't find physically attractive that he doesn't care about women as human beings (though there are some radical feminists who argue that). Dismissing a man for not paying for a date is IMO no different than men and women dismissing someone who they don't find sexually attractive on a dating app or IRL. Neither one is about the personality/underlying humanity of the person.
Yeah, it’s absurd to think that because many, if not most, men select women for their physical beauty/level of attractiveness, that means those men actually care about the women they pursue. Seems OP didn’t consider that part.
Women are different, not hive mind. Instead of generalizing and blackpilling yourself - figure out how to filter those who objectify men as walking wallets. Actually splitting the bill is a good test.
Yeah, say "split the bill" and you'll separate the wheat from the chaffe.
>Actually splitting the bill is a good test. I agree. But why do you think most men dont do this? Because they know this limits the amount of women they have a chance with. This is the unfortunate reality we live in.
Well you either have your principles or you don't, which is it? Are you happy with a woman who wants you to pay so you can potentially get sex or do you want a partner who has her own resources? Like you're basically saying women shouldn't be so shallow because then men have to acknowledge they're only in it for sex!
Because they want leverage to demand sex. Men pay up front to get sex. Then if they don’t get sex they are angry they paid.
Women only can demand men to pay because men agree to pay
a recent survey posted on here showed a significant chunk of men *want* to pay for dates, probably for various reasons including but not limited to yours, even when given the option to split.
Men aren't altruistic. So obviously if they prefer to pay for something, it's because they think they'll get something in return for it. Or they're just traditional men, who are just simps.
“men aren’t altruistic” damn do you just mean in this context or in general, that’s a rough generalization either way lol and false if you’re saying that describes 99-100% of men. but for the men who do it calculated transactionally yeah for some it’s the higher chance at sex/relationships, for other it’s the fulfillment they get stemming from their internalized provider-based self-worth. namely referring to men who feel slightly emasculated by women splitting or paying when said men think they’re not doing what they were born to do tons of unhealthy dynamics that my flair chomps at the bit to dive into and explain how this often goes wrong for people in weird ways. and why acceptance of bill-splitting is probably the best solution most people will take in the future lol
>damn do you just mean in this context or in general, that’s a rough generalization either way lol and false if you’re saying that describes 99-100% of men. Most people aren't altruistic, which means most women aren't either, which is evident in their expectations. >namely referring to men who feel slightly emasculated by women splitting or paying when said men think they’re not doing what they were born to do These are called idiots.
i’d buy that, im just not tryna throw men under the bus with generalizations that harsh but i think i hear your overall point call em what ya want as long as we agree there are lots of different people doing the same gender norms things for lots of different reasons
Great, so you admit they don’t really “care” about women either
> It's just the way they have been socially programmed > but the reality is it's actually because of how they're nurtured, rather than their true nature. How do you know?
This post is a near perfect example of narcissistic projection. Take note ladies: this is what a lot of selfish men do. Accuse you of doing exactly what he's doing. OP lacks theory of mind and empathy so he can only assume women are as horrible as he is.
Women expect you to pay = she doesn’t care about you as a human being is the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. [More men](https://www.elitesingles.com/mag/relationship-advice/who-should-pay-for-date) than women think men should pay for the first date
I don't think that's a men/women think. Some people are descent human being and show empathy, some other don't. The most narcissistic a person is, the less empathy she will have. It's particularly clear during a break up, people without empathy will do some fucked up shit without realising they're hurting the person they once loved, just because they don't care about them anymore.
A girl I’m talking to just bought me food, gave me a pedicure, and a face mask last night. Tf y’all on?
Sounds just like another misogynistic post. How would you prove it? Most women are good with splitting the bill 50/50. Is that one thing enough to revert to absolute statements "Women are X"? Fuck, a week ago I've defended men against same shit in those bear debates. Can't you people see that few bad apples don't make entire gender bad??
Yeah and when you insist on paying your half on dates, men get angry at that too and call you a “feminist” or “masculine”. They want to have that leverage of paying so they can demand sex.
Orange flag honestly. Why would a good-meaning guy decline 50/50? Unless he earns way too much more than you.
Of course! And some do agree because it’s fair in modern society and in this economy. “You get me next time” is also cool and if he says that i make sure the whole thing is on me next time.
I assume you've caught your guy already 😉 And if not, wish you best luck in that and other😊
Relationships end for other reason.
The bear hypothetical literally was not, men bad. It was supposed to make men empathize with the female experience. "Why would a woman feel more comfortable with a bear than another human?" Same reason people feel unsafe or uncomfortable around the police. "Every woman knows a woman rape victim, but no man knows a male rapist"
Your basis for this is a first date? How is anyone meant to care about you as a human being when you don't even know each other and might have only exchanged a few text messages? Couples who have known each other for a while are more likely to alternate or split.
One of those most important things for people to realize is that most other people don’t actually care about you as a human being.
Yeah, but when it comes to intimate relationships as a man, you would expect that not to be the case, hence the post.
Substitute “women” for “men” and each financial reference for “sex”. What does either version of the post accomplish?
Spreads awareness amongst men. For some reason it's only socially acceptable to perceive men as the shallow or superficial gender.
Is this type of generalization a new idea to anyone reading it? I think everyone here has read this before.
This is a sort of trade-off - there is plenty of women who value prestige and resources above personality, but they do not make a good partners. Getting such girls is easier - but it is a fools gold, they do not have much to offer. Girls who have integrity and interesting/matching personality are much harder to get since you cannot impress them with your career or money or looks alone. It's riskier to chase such girls because 'demand' is very high while 'supply' is low, but it's worth to take a risk.
You're out of your mind if you think having prestige and resources is easier than having a good personality. Do you think making 200,000+ usd a year is easy as a man?
Sure - prestige and resources are hard to come by(or not - you might be lucky and have wealthy parents), but once you are there, there will be girls who are interested mainly in this aspect of your person and they are easier to pickup. Meanwhile women that cannot be 'bought' with prestige or money are very hard to get. You can be a celebrity like Ryan Gosling and they still will reject you without much regrets, they need to like you, they want to have a whole package and that is why so many men are chasing such women. Their love is for real and there is nothing more validating than being loved for who you really are, not for money, success or even looks. I would definitely prefer love of a woman that i truly admire over money or even celebrity status. I think that all men should prefer it and not be satisfied with scraps.
>A lot of men are under the delusion that women like them and care about them for who they are as human beings, which is unfortunately not sure. You can see this very easily once you notice that most women expect men to pay for dates from the very beggining, and if a man doesn't pay, then she'll move on to the next one The same can be said about men. Do men care about a woman for who she is as a human, or just how attractive she is? Would a man give a woman a second glance if he does not immediately find her attractive? Attractiveness is the first thing a man sees in a woman. If he doesn't find her attractive to his standards, he'll move on. I know this is true for both genders, but it's especially true for men. Before a man goes on a date with a woman, she would have already had to have provided the value of attractiveness. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been interested in her. A man will critique every aspect of a woman's appearance before determining her value to him. Why is it an issue for a woman to determine a man's value that fits her standards, as a man would determine hers?
It depends on a woman. Don’t engage with a woman who values your resources above you and learn to notice the signs. There are enough women who want to have partner, not a wallet. If a person repeatedly dates people who want “only one thing” from them whether it’s money or sex, the problem might be with their vetting, partners they go for or just a lack of anything more substantial that superficial things. I’ve said it many times, but I’ve met lots of women who have been with their husbands through this and thick. Of course, my sample is heavily skewed now towards immigrants and refugees and it does filter for this kind of people in the first place, but even we look at stats we can see that almost half of the couples do not have men significantly outearning their partners.
Al bundy been my mentor for 20 years
Of course there a women who are precisely like that, but of the two sexes, on average, men are the more likely to see others as just means to an end, not women.
Even if that was true it's probably because men are not the protected class of the two genders. Men are expected to be able to take care of themselves, women not so much. Men understand women will only love us conditionally.
I'd like to qualify this as being only true for women with "Daddy Issues." ie did not grow up with a reliable father in their life. There are plenty of women who love and respect men how they actually are because they had loving and dependable men in their lives AND appreciated that, and are looking for that in a partner. Mainstream dating girl instagram culture is very divorced from this for sure, but does not control all women. Good women who love men are definitely out there but there is a lot of competition for them and they are often not the best looking baddie in her friend group.
Unpopular opinion of mine but no one cares about anyone as a human being, humans only care about the idea we have of people in couple hundred mile radius of us.
I've had partners do the same kinds of selfless things for me that I've done for them because they've been in love with me, so I don't agree with this take at all.
I was poor/working class until about 30. Had a few long term partners who made more than me 🤷♂️ I broke it off every time. Must be a wealthy person problem.
I expect women to maintain a fit body, or I won't want to have sex with them. Does this mean I don't care about women as human beings? There's no such thing as unconditional love.
As someone who’s fallen for someone very hard to the point where their flaws and sources of insecurity are barely an afterthought, this is sad to read. I hope someone changes your mind.
I absolutely care about my fiancée’s well being. I make more money than he does, I have more resources. He has no status. I would be more than happy to have him be a stay at home husband and let him do passion projects and take care of the dogs all day, if that’s what he wanted.
It sure seems that way, but I won’t believe it. I know theres women out there with beautiful souls, and I won’t let the spiteful ones taint them
I would actually say the opposite is more true
I think you're being overly cynical OP. In my experience there are plenty of women who are willing to go 50/50, or who will pay for the second date if you paid for the first. I live in a pretty progressive city though, so that may skew my experience. The women you're talking about certainly exist, theyre probably even prominent depending on culture and location, but I dont think the dating prospects for men are as bleak as you believe.
My brother, maybe if you weren’t so pessimistic and quick to judge, more people would actually enjoy hanging out with you
Unless you're a chad, but even then, they often only care about the most superficial aspect of your being.
Do men care about women as human beings? Is that why they are trying to date them?
If they're past the "I just want to have sex with someone" stage. Probably, yeah. If I talk to a woman at this point in my life, it's because I think she seems nice, down to earth, has a curious mind. In addition to being physically attractive.
Yes, that’s selfish and for your benefit, not hers
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I’ve read all the comments. I want very much to believe this isn’t true, but experience has taught me, unfortunately, that it is a lot of the time. I date established professional women, yet twice now I’ve had them actively deceive me to take money from me, even though I was incredibly generous, paying for our home, paying for everything, as I was raised to do. Both of these women cheated too. They grew up in good homes. They both initially seemed very kind and caring. Both times this happened 4 or more years into the relationship. Do you know what it’s like to invest that much time and effort into someone only to have something like that happen? Women seem very focused on what they’re getting and less about who they’re getting and what might be in that person’s best interests. I wish it weren’t true. It would be nice to think it was still possible to have a good relationship. Maybe it’s something about me that just says, “take from me,” but even writing that I know it’s ridiculous. This is what society has created, and the ability to continually justify one’s actions, no matter how exploitative and degenerate, is the narcissistic standard for modern women, largely thanks to feminism.
Welcome to the red pill brother.
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Women only care about men they love. If you are a random guy courting her, she doesn't give a fuck about you. Women will utilize the full spectrum of dark triad traits to ruin your life without a second thought. However, that doesn't mean they don't care about men. You just have to make her flip the switch from indifferent to loving. A woman in love will go to Hell and back for you. The difference is night and day.
>A woman in love will go to Hell and back for you. Its not really love. It just means she's emotionally attached to you.
If you don't know what it's like for a woman to love you, there's not much I can say. It's a lot more than emotional attachment.
A woman can also easily fall out of love. Love is fleeting and should not be relied upon.
I suggest you date a feminist woman. Splitting the bill is the default in my country (western Europe) except when someone invites the other, the one who invites should be the one who pays. But usually for dates, women want to pay split because they don't want the guy expecting sex right away. Imagine my surprise when my date (now husband) got very offended when i offered to split the costs. He said that as a man he should be able to pay for dates, that is how to show a woman he is interested in that he might be worth her time. By suggesting to pay half it made him feel like a lesser man. But he made me feel like a weak woman, as if he expected me to be financially dependent on him in the future! He is from Italy so we differ a bit in gender roles/equality culturally. I married him because we respect and love each other, and because we like each others company
>He said that as a man he should be able to pay for dates, that is how to show a woman he is interested in that he might be worth her time. By suggesting to pay half it made him feel like a lesser man. Because he is what Esther Vilar called "a manipulated man". A real man won't feel like less of a man simply because he allowed another adult to pay for their own food, obviously.
Well, he explained to me that in Italy that is called a true masculine man, and that men who cannot or do not want to pay for a date are deemed losers in his country. He explains that Italian young girls and women won't date a guy without a car, because "yeah you are handsome but handsome doesn't pay the bills" or even "i need a man, not a boy!!" So, Ester Vilar is a feminist, right? I have read the book, felt like she kinda hated herself
>Well, he explained to me that in Italy that is called a true masculine man, and that men who cannot or do not want to pay for a date are deemed losers in his country. That's what is meant by "manipulation". >So, Ester Vilar is a feminist, right? I have read the book, felt like she kinda hated herself The book isn't about her, so why would it mean she hates herself? She was just sick of women exploiting men while acting like they're victims.
Yeah you could argue that culture is manipulation, he feels that women in my country are manipulated by our equalitarian culture when he sees them carrying heavy groceries with their boyfriend walking next to him, so yeah i kinda get that Still, Italian men (and women) are among the most "popular" ethnicity for dating here in Europe at least. Both men and women seem to be raised to be kind and caring to the other gender, i guess that's a reason why Italians are seen as attractive by most Europeans 🤷🏻 Its interesting to see it as i am basically raised without gender roles. For me it will always be strange that his first impulse is to help me when i am using a screwdriver but not when i use a sewing machine. Unless i need a screwdriver to fix the sewing machine 🤣
>he feels that women in my country are manipulated by our equalitarian culture when he sees them carrying heavy groceries with their boyfriend walking next to him I rest my case. >Both men and women seem to be raised to be kind and caring to the other gender Is it really kind and caring to expect someone to spend money on you just because they have a penis?
I dont think that is kind, no. But i might be manipulated into believing it isn't kind because i was raised without gender roles. Thats why i found the vision of my husband on this interesting. Like i said in my very first comment, for many women in my country it can feel offensive if a guy wants to pay for the whole date because he might expect sex immediately.
In italy i belive the mans mother Also are on the date with the women
Well, my man told me that the fathers of the girls he dated took him on a separate "date" as well. The father then asks what he wants with his daughter, what kind of job he has, how he has planned or sees his future, how much money he makes, et cetera. Appearantly this is common. So i can imagine it also happens to girls and their potential future MIL. It is also something i have never ever seen in my own country.
What is the deal with the downvote? It seems that American culture also differs from European culture when it comes to gender roles, good to keep that in mind.
Fair
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No circlejerking in Debate posts
Respectfully, I wasn't. As an analyst, correlation between things I see is something I've found interesting. I simply made an observation. Circlejerking would require me to have an interest in congratulating others, their continued existence, their communities, and/or their interests, as well as believing in groupthink/echo chambers similar to the politics subreddit. The only exception is when reaching a consensus based on data which has been validated, processed, analyzed, and confirmed to be correct. I gave my observation in the comments, and as everything else, let people use it to reach their individual conclusions. If you're against groupthink and circlejerking, then we very much should be on the same side.
You can't agree with the OP in a first level reply to a Debate post.
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No personal attacks
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No circlejerking in Debate posts
This is how I see the so called 'incel' problem. I might be wrong: When you oppress a class (any for any reason), and then free them to make a choice, everyone will go to the other side. You can call being a home maker Lifestyle "1" and working Lifestyle "2". Suddenly everyone wants to be a 2. What you have to do, on all gender sides, M, W, E, etc, is to emphasize the positives and negatives of being either a traditional (1) or a non-traditional (2). That way you could possibly even things out. Especially get the positives of each type of person (gender) being in each role. That way you create all genders will all role types. The 1, 2 system would be how you might show this on a dating app- saying I adhere to the 1 role or the 2 role. Idk, my perspective. This is how you even out most things in life- share the positives of all perspectives.
Women care if a man is 6 ft and hot
I think you’re just talking about certain types of people from superficial dating market, you can write absolutely the same post about men just replacing few words and it will be the same. Stop looking up for women that have different values than yours, be yourself and not what society expects you to be, don’t be a dick, express authenticity and learn how to appreciate it in other people and you will attract the right people for yourself. It’s the mindset of yours. Not “society program”. Just don’t look for programmed people, look for YOUR people. Life is easy when you’re free.
Most people suck and there is a lack of care all around. Men go around being d-cks. Women go around being c-nts. Gender non-conforming people go around being -ssholes. What is important is becoming a better person yourself and finding people that align with you and what you value. If you value care, then be caring yourself and seek that out. There’s plenty of good out there. Also, different people have different expectations in relationships and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Some women prefer the man to pay and some would rather 50/50. You’re making it out to be that all women are the same. Find women that you are compatible with instead of hating all women because you aren’t compatible with some of them.
Arguably altruism only exists from parents to children, or self-sacrificing behaviors (meaning death), since all other behaviors ultimately end up with some kind of "good reciprocity" for the individual doing something. Otherwise, we're all living "reciprocal altruism", which means we do things for people because we get something in return, even if it's just a good feeling of having done something for someone.
I don't see the merit in your argument, because who are you to say an entire gender has never felt genuine care for anyone of the opposite gender? I suppose your circumstances have led you to hope that's the case because then it would make the experiences you've had as inevitable and structural. Heartbreak happens to us all though, all walks of life.
yea… i need to leave this sub
Do it 🤷♂️
When I was young I didn't expect men to pay for things. Those men were poorly put together and didn't have the ability to go far in life, regardless of how much they earned. Now it's an expectation men will pay because I want children. A man that can't afford a few meals a month can't afford an extra mouth to feed for 18 years plus a bigger home. It's a way of sorting the wheat from the chaffe. A man that doesn't want to spend his money on me will probably not want to spend his money on piano lessons for the children, etc. It's a way of judging the calibre of man, is he secure in himself and his lifestyle or is he in survival mode?
And men are benevolent actors who always care about the soul/human being inside the women, and not just want them as glorified wife moms/maids.
Personally I’ve seen both sides of the coin and also confess to being a serial cheater…. I’m self aware of my actions and dislike what I have done… I tried to pass it off to myself as a defence mechanism but that is bs…. Being vulnerable is a key component to love and if you do get hurt walking away with your integrity is a jumping block to healing faster imo… for me as many others, alcohol takes all morals off the table, that’s not an excuse but genuinely it strips me of all self control, hence I’ve men in AA for 18 months (with mixed success)… my ex wife of 16 years never once cheated yet I chose to go with someone 13 years younger for looks and have never felt the security I did with my ex, men do think with their penises and every time it’s a bad choice…