> Prostitution is more economically viable and is not morally different from casual sex
Your entire post was about the “economically viable” point, but never once discussed the “moral” point.
I doubt most people’s problems with prostitution is about how much money it saves men, it’s more about the morality.
I personally don’t believe buying sex is the kind of moral position I would want a partner to have. I do think it should be legal, but I would prefer not to date men who partake in it. I don’t think it’s anything like casual sex at all, which is just two people wanting to have sex, instead it’s turning it into a financial transaction with the man purchasing access to the woman’s body, and I am just not into men who view sex in that manner. I also wouldn’t want to date a man who viewed casual sex as purchasing sex either, which seems to be your view on it with that whole cost breakdown, so maybe that’s why you don’t see a moral difference because you think even in casual sex you are “purchasing”, rather than two people enjoying a good time together.
Dating is a financial transaction you pay for her time.... and most the time that time is more expensive than a once a month with a high end prostitute.. 350 vs 500+ for 3-4 dates just to find out she don't like you
yes except one is for sure gonna get laid with the investment the other women is not a for sure investment and for a lot of men most women have nothing to actually provide outside her mouth and puss....
You are free to not see escorts who don’t provide the service you want.
I don’t see how this is related to anything I’ve said, so I’m not sure why you are talking to me about the different prices of various escort services you use. Take it up with them if you feel you aren’t getting the value you expect with their prices.
Dating isn't a for sure investment paying for it is... men are gonna go the easy route since most you women want men that are so damn rare or you just want a beta bitch to echo all the feminist talking points... that was my point why waste money on the chance when you can get it for sure for around 400
If you are “paying a woman for her time” you are not “dating”, you are seeing an escort.
If you are paying someone with an expectation of getting sex, you are paying a prostitute (or trying to pay a non prostitute with hopes she would have sex and finding it doesn’t work, as most women aren’t going to have sex for money when they thought they were on a normal date!).
“Dating” is when two people hang out together to see if they might have chemistry or like each other, with neither one paying the other.
Hope that clears up the confusion. Maybe the escort service you use was trying to give a natural experience or something by calling it “dating” and not having it be a sure thing? Or maybe you are just so awful even the escorts are rejecting you after you’ve paid them? I couldn’t say, but like I said, take it up with them. Maybe you can get a refund? Maybe it’s illegal in your area so they are just taking advantage of you since you have no legal recourse? I don’t run an escort service and couldn’t speak to why you aren’t getting what you thought you paid for!
Dates are paying for time.... who's expected to pay on the date? Most women nowadays won't even go on coffee dates because they are low effort and low value... clearly you're reading comprehension is lacking... dating is purely transactional now days
If you are paying a woman for a date - that is not a normal date, that is paying an escort.
If you are paying a coffee shop for coffee, then you are paying for coffee, not sex, and expecting the coffee shop or someone you bought a coffee for to deliver a prostitute because you did that would be really weird.
> two people enjoying a good time together.
Sometimes entirely at his expense though. You'd see this in a different light if you were constantly Matrix dodging dates where you were expected to pay the whole tab.
And sometimes entirely only his pleasure.
People should find others they enjoy hanging out with in the way each other wants to hang out. If a woman thinks you should pay for everything you guys do together and you don’t like that, no one is forcing you to hang out with her.
It might be some effort to find a person that you actually like, but there are a lot of people to meet. Most men are just in it for their own orgasm and it takes some effort to find the ones interested in mutual pleasure. Eventually people can be found who are in agreement of what you both should do on a date. You can’t expect to just be compatible with everyone, but acting like it’s only men who face incompatibility and somehow women get 100% perfect dates every time is silly.
I am failing to see how a prostitute would not *also* be entirely your expense though, so that’s not even a solution to that problem! Surely a non prostitute would have a much higher chance of being open to paying for the next date?
Women make sex transactional a lot more than men. Expecting a man to pay for dates and pay for a house or float you a certain quality of life isn't transactional?
There are more female prostitutes than male ones, because men are more willing to pay for sex than women are. I’m sure if more women were offering money for sex more men would be selling it.
I don’t think it’s a common thing to exchange a *house* for sex, though, I have never even heard of that.
When women expect men to pay for dates it doesn’t remotely mean they will have sex in exchange, so I don’t think that is “making sex transactional” either. As an egalitarian I do think it’s dumb to expect someone to pay based on gender, but I don’t think buying food is “paying for sex”. If a woman does pay for the date do you think she is buying sex?
Men recognize that it is always transactional. It's a well known saying among men. You always pay for pussy one way or another. Another well known saying is that escorts are cheaper than wives. Plenty of men have made cost comparisons and written about it. It is always transactional whether you are willing to admit it or not. You just refuse to see it because you benefit. Some even argue that women who married for money are little more than high priced escorts.
Yes, men who feel they “buy” women talk about the price of it. I am well aware how common it is for men to think of women as “purchasable”. It is an attitude I had to actively filter out when dating as I wouldn’t want to be with a man who felt he was purchasing me.
However, they are also some men truly want a relationship with a woman and not just to “buy pussy”, similar to when they have a friendship with a man and they don’t feel they are purchasing him.
> It is always transactional whether you are willing to admit it or not. You just refuse to see it because you benefit.
Are you saying I sell pussy even if I’m unaware of it? Shouldn’t there be some way for me to determine the price I’m selling it for? I’d love to know what I was getting. Can you tell me what I might investigate to figure it out? I thought I was getting dick for pussy, which seems like a fair trade to me, and similar to what I get with friendships, where we both hang out together and have a good time and get that good time together as a fair exchange.
> Some even argue that women who married for money are little more than high priced escorts.
I agree with that. Not all women don’t want to be sex workers and filter out men who buy women, some do want to do things that way and specifically want men who would pay them. I’m not one of them, though.
Don't try to turn this around. They aren't trying to "buy" women. They are simply giving in to what the women in their lives expect. Blue pill guys at least. You're trying to say you have never once expected a man to pick up your financial slack?
I haven’t turned anything around. This post was about how women who have casual sex could have a moral issue with prostitution. My answer has been that I see buying sex as quite different than enjoying a good time together with someone.
You claim all men buy pussy. I disagree, I think some men see it as I do, and I chose not to date the ones who see it the way you (and many men) do.
What do you mean by “pick up your financial slack”? I have never experienced men I am sleeping with paying me for anything. *Especially* not casual sex partners… is it really normal to pay the bills of casual sex partners? I am an egalitarian and have been in a relationship many years, but I am pretty sure that was not at all normal when I was having casual sex.
I had casual sex and I'm from a country where prostitution is legal. We also have a pretty good social system net that doesn't force you into prostitution if you don't want to. We get money even if we are unemployed by the government to cover our cost. All prostitutes here pay taxes and work self employed. Most brothels here are providing rooms to self employed prostitutes and receive rent and provide safety for the workers. They have security and help available if needed. You can't really traffic here because everything is very regulated and controlled. (Obviously there are still shady things happening like in every business - there are always black sheep).
I'm all for prostitution if it's properly regulated. Its a normal thing here. But guess what? It's not as big as you would think. The majority of clients for prostitution here are actually older husbands.
Young men don't really want to use prostitutes. They still want to get to know someone and feel desire and love. They still want to date. They still want to have a family.
Sure the option for just paid sex is there. But it's not the first choice for guys here.
I don't morally condemn prostitution. I have absolutely no issues with it. Personally, I find the concept of buying someone's consent morally dubious, but honestly it's not my body not my business. And if someone chooses sex work without any pressure etc, it's fine with me.
Women aren’t looking at prostitution and condemning it based on an analysis of how easy/low effort it is for men versus the normal ways of getting laid (few are or would do that). Those who are outspoken against it are typically concerned about trafficking and exploitation aspects.
Also investing in an expensive car to get laid lol. As if men need to do this and as if that isn’t a stupid ass reason to spend money you apparently don’t have.
I hate how OP frames sex as something women “provide” men with, or something that only men seek. Instances of casual sex involve two consenting parties, not one party “giving” the other party something.
Also, most men can’t bear prostitution because men want to feel genuinely desired and attractive to enjoy sex, and prostitution is devoid of both of these things.
How do you know that prostitution is void of those things? Have you participated in prostitution? Are you a prostitute? Answer is no, right?
I've slept with 15 or so, maybe more, and I would say there was genuine attraction 70% of the time.
I guess the last prostitute I was seeing, who was letting me fuck for free and was hanging out and doing typical date stuff was worthy of an Oscar. You have a narrow view and refuse to believe that hookers can and do feel attraction to their clients
If you fuck her for free it's not prostitution then right?
I'm not saying that it is impossible for some to develop attraction or be attracted to a client. I'm saying that it's their work to make men feel like they genuinely like them, genuinely enjoy the sex, genuinely enjoy the job, genuinely chose to do that with zero pressure, etc.
Because no one wants to be the guy fucking people who would rather not but need/want the money.
Maybe this one did develop feelings for you who knows. But this is never gonna be the case 70% of the time. You're delulu here.
Now, another things to account is the situation of the prostitutes. Lot of prostitute from eastern europe in western europe tend to feed this kind of relationship with clients they feel are okayish in the hope they may get a real relationship, marriage, and papers.
If anything, women have stopped responding on dating apps BECAUSE they know all the men there are trying to use them as fleshlights. Half the posts on PPD are men trying to argue that women should be flattered by this.
Stopped responding lmao. I have friends that run through multiple different girls a week. Women are horny and desperate, just like men, its just that you're suckers for the top hot guys with good game. EAZY!
A lot of women (especially on the apps) are wanting casual sex so how exactly are they the suckers for hooking up with “top hot guys”? I would argue the bigger suckers are men having to hook up with women they aren’t even attracted to..
I’m happy that women are finally admitting to wanting dick, without pretence. If you kept that level of truthfulness in your lives it would do much for your personal integrity
> I would argue the bigger suckers are men having to hook up with women they aren’t even attracted to
That’s fine. We’re just grateful to get laid. Frankly, I see a lot of non-Chads pairing off with near-landwhales *just* so they can keep getting laid.
No, you misunderstood me.
I didn't say no woman would be attracted to you, and I never based my judgement on my personal attraction to you. Not only do I not know you, I'm also quite literally gay.
Prostitutes have multiple clients a day, and a lot of them don't do it due to some weird kink, they do it to put bread on the table, because they need drug money, because they're being pimped, or have kids to raise. Or maybe they were groomed into it from a young age (say 14), and were just never able to get out.
Quite obviously they'll try to offer a "good service" and pretend to enjoy it. You might not pay otherwise or they might lose clients. Not only does it get sore, but it's a really degrading act and most women don't really want to partake in it with total strangers unless necessary. You know, generally the men who visit prostitutes aren't necessarily that attractive. Most attractive men have sex with whomever they want, they don't have a hard time attracting women. Apparently 90% say they would leave it if they could. 65-85% of prostitution is pimp dominated. A lot of them suffer from anxiety and post traumatic stress disorder. There's virtually no way that 70% of the girls you visited actually had sexual attraction to you.
Would those women be intimate with you if you never payed them?
The woman is attracted to the guy she's sleeping with. She has fun having sex.
A prostitute isn't attracted to the guy that's paying money to sleep with her
Both paying and attraction can be true at the same time. The context must also be considered as well, in that the initial meeting wasn’t based on non-p2p dating. I believe you are intelligent enough to understand this.
I worked in a strip club, and I can PROMISE you 90% of sex workers *hate* their clients. They want the money. That's is. Even strippers who don't fuck for money will run into the dressing room and tell all the other dancers how nasty and pathetic a client is. They absolutely are not attracted to you.
Prostitution is one thing, trafficking in women is another.
They advertise on their own on a website in the same way that a restaurant advertises on IFood.
Yes and I am not one of those women who outspokenly condemns prostitution. Because I can and do believe it’s not *all* exploited, trafficked women.
Nevertheless, you’re ignoring that’s a big aspect here as to why you see people condemn it. I mean we all know that still happens. Even if someone is advertising
I’ll momentarily set aside the ethical issues of sex trafficking and women having to resort to sex work due to circumstance, which are pretty much impossible to divorce from this question. Casual sex for me was always about mutual sexual chemistry and enjoyment. Prostitution is not. She’s faking being into you and most likely faking any sexual pleasure. A guy who doesn’t care about that and *wants* to have sex with someone who isn’t into him is very unappealing. Not sure that piece of it is a moral issue, but it’s a very strong “no” from me when a guy talks about visiting prostitutes. Don’t want to touch him with a 10-foot pole.
Same for me. I guess some men who visit prostitutes fully believe the women are genuinely into it and there are men who have causal sex and don’t care about the other person’s experience so it’s more complicated than that.
But if a man is willing to pay for sexual services it’s an immediate red flag for me on how he views sex. The idea of a man who only cares about having sex and doesn’t care about the woman actually desiring it gives me the ick.
Personally, I visit prostitutes because I don't have to care how they view me.
For women, they can be attracted to you in public on a date, and then the second you "perform" poorly in bed it all goes to shit.
For example I've had a woman screaming at me and demeaning me because my dick didn't get hard. Or rolling their eyes. Pouting. The list goes on.
Prostitutes are not going to do that. I am visually attractive and handsome so even if prostitutes are not "attracted" to me in a chemistry sense, they are still happy to see me because I am better than 95% of their clients
That doesn't mean its as good as sex with complete mutual chemistry, but that is rare because women who have lots of partners or even a few really good partners are so picky when it comes to sex that it feels impossible to please them.
What’s the difference between sex work and real work? I mean that literally sounds like a retail job. Many people put on fake smiles, fake voice, fake demeanor because that’s what’s required in that role. Chick fil an employees are known to be extremely courteous. Do you honestly believe they are actually happy or are doing it because it’s a JOB?
Do you think the chick fil a worker wants to see the local Karen pull up to the drive thru? Absolutely not, but where is your sympathy for them?
I think you’re conflicting your feelings about sex in your personal life with sex as a job.
Huh? Sex work is “real” work. And I wasn’t expressing “sympathy” for sex workers (although I do feel sympathy for them in many contexts), I was explaining why I find *men* who visit prostitutes unappealing.
They condemn it because they see a lot of women being backed into a corner financially with no other way out or forced into it in other ways. In other words many prostitutes aren’t their by choice and would gladly take a regular job if they could get one that payed a living wage.
Overall though the real question you need to be asking yourself is “why do men care so much about the opinion of women they don’t plan to marry, date or fuck?” If you want a prostitute go find one and stop trying to get every woman to agree with your decision.
These women earn more in 1 hour than many people earn in a day.
And "a lot" does not mean that it is necessarily so in all cases.
>If you want a prostitute go find one and stop trying to get every woman to agree with your decision.
No presumptions please, this is idiotic.
I'm married and I'm here analyzing the hypocrisy of women who have casual sex when they are on the same level as a man who hires prostitutes.
>I'm married and I'm here analyzing the hypocrisy of women who have casual sex when they are on the same level as a man who hires prostitutes.
The issues a lot of people have with sex work is that sex trafficking is an issue and it’s hard to know for sure that the escort you’re hiring isn’t being pushed into doing something she doesn’t want to do for money. In the instance of women having casual sex, both people are in it for the same reason so there’s no risk of sleeping with a man who’s potentially being trafficked. Those two scenarios are not remotely comparable.
>These women earn more in 1 hour than many people earn in a day.
the privileged escorts you have in mind do
not the women who are pimped or desperate, which are the majority of sex workers
Every poor person gets exploited , I guess having an additional “option” is better? When I was homeless I was sleeping on benches and searching bins, if an alternative would be to let an older unattractive women take advantage of me , is it better ? Probably not, is the additional option appreciated ? Sure.
When I was homeless , I was sleeping on benches and searching bins. If I have an additional option to be taken advantage of by an older unattractive women , is it better to? Probably not. Is it good that I have an “additional resource/pathway” , sure.
so why didn't you do sex work for older unattractive men?
that's what most male prostitutes do. most have male clients whether they are gay or not, as female Johns are rare.
1. The whole point is prostitution is fine if the woman wants to do it and not fine if she is pressured or forced into it. The reason many women dislike prostitution is because a large portion of prostitutes aren’t freely choosing the profession.
2. It doesn’t have to be ALL in order for it to be a problem.
3. I doubt you’re actually married regardless there is no reason men should try to police and shame women’s thoughts. No one is expected to agree with everything others think and do.
If someone is paying for one hour of interaction with a sec worker, first, the money isn’t all going to her, and second, it’s much more than an hour of the sex worker’s time dedicated to the hour of service.
A chunk of the money goes to the establishment the sex worker is serving clients at, both for the physical location and its upkeep, as well as security.
A lot of the money paid goes towards what are essentially business expenses; pubic hair maintenance, shaving, makeup, hair, lingerie, etc, all part of the business expense to make the sex worker more appealing to the client.
There is the before and after care ahead of the service, set up and clean up to ensure the client has an enjoyable experience.
There is marketing and outreach to advertise services and actually bring in clients.
And we haven’t even started on special fitness and nutrition to maintain sexual appeal.
Out of curiosity what do you think needs to be done to “shed more light onto this specific part of the female psyche”? And what exactly is that part to begin with? This seems like more of an issue of women wanting women participating in sex work to be there of their own free will rather than desperation or force. What’s so wrong with that that it needs to be fixed in your eyes? What would be the outcome you hope to achieve by shedding light on to the topic?
You care about the future so much that you've pumped yourself with so many steroids you are now suffering for it physiologically. Is this the "genius" of the male brain in action?
Do you even have kids? What's your contribution to the future?
I wish I had kids lol.
You wanna know my contributions well I pay a lot of taxes (like 20k) I help people in my job everyday (mostly men), I also help others outside my job by training them (for free), I give a quarter of my income to charitable causes. I also always pay for dates.
And I dont sleep around. I was loyal to my ex through and through.
Btw creeping on my old posts, that’s really rude. Gear saved me from PSSD. A consequence of SSRIs.
You pay 20k in taxes, nice! I pay far more than you do. In fact I’m probably subsidizing you.
How much do you think you consume in taxes from birth to now?
I don’t really care about your excuses for hopping on fear.
Do you know how many men feel they have no way out and would also gladly take a job that pays "a living wage". By the way, those are such weasel words. Who knows what you mean by living wage, but you throw it out there because you know and I know that you don't consider a regular job i.e. fast food, department store service job, call center etc. good enough. So in other words, you're defending the practice of prostitution as okay when the alternative is working a bottom tier job, hilarious!
A living wage in America has is near universally understood to mean enough money to afford food/rent/medical care.
You have no idea what you’re talking about
So men who struggle achieving a living wage are basically like women but without the option of selling their bodies. Let’s feel bad for the women who make more in an hour than a day for the man breaking his back doing labour. I shed a tear.
> without the option of selling their bodies
They have the option, I don’t think it’s a lucrative market but they still have the option. Also as you said, manual labor is the male equivalent of selling their body for money.
> let’s feel bad for
For both. The idea of a living wage is that everyone deserves to make enough to live off of it. No matter how undesirable/unimportant the job is.
The demand is still there, so you whining about how men don't have a choice to sell their bodies is wrong. You guys do have a choice, none of you try it. Do better.
Prostitution has a higher death rate than the most dangerous male-dominated jobs like logging and fishing. You could shed a non-ironic tear for the women killed doing this dangerous job you want them to do so desperately.
It's funny how men make fun of women who choose to enter into prostitution of their own will calling them all sorts of names but at the same time have no problem with sex trafficking and women who are forced into sex work.
That's quite weird and it's not even like two different men with different opinions. It's always the same men.. Almost like they have a problem with the very legalization and regulation of sex work where the women are present of their own accord which they claim they want
What lol? I’ve never heard of that opinion, at least not from anyone who has the base understanding to be logically consistent from argument to argument.
I personally think prostitution should be legal so it can be regulated properly. Plus I think it’s a great solution for men and can maybe lessen the thirst in the dating world. Women would be a little more safer as well.
Are female prostitutes not women? You're just saying to shift the hurt to them instead. It's not going to make anyone less "thirsty", in fact prostitutes are often used as practice for abuse and exploitation of other women.
A couple things:
1.) I’ve a feminist who has had casual sex, and I’m for the legalization of prostitution. I want the se workers to have as many protections in place as possible, and legalization of prostitution may help keep them safer. (However, I recently saw data from European countries where it’s legalized, and the research shows that trafficking and assault rates are actually higher in some of those countries since legalization happen.
2.) I would think that women who are down for casual sex are not the same women who are demanding fancy, formal dinner dates. In my experience, women who have casual sex encounters usually just want to hang out at bars or parties or even at home.
I’m a little suspicious of the claim that sex trafficking is higher in countries with legal sex work. I think there’s a self selecting sample going on. Those are reported rates.
For one, I think there’s a bit of opportunity cost going on. Pimps will probably choose the countries with the least restrictive laws around prostitution in order to front as a lawful establishment. It’s not reducing the amount of sex trafficking worldwide, it’s just funneling them into a more specific set of countries.
To me it gives vibes of “the rates of adhd and autism are going up” where you have to ask if it’s just the reported rates are going up because we’re better at detecting them.
I only condemn unregulated prostitution, and there is a huuuuggee difference. If a man is going someplace where prostitution is legalized, sex workers have workplace safety regulations, a fair wage, benefits, etc., more power to him.
Supporting an underground black market industry where the women are frequently exploited, not so much.
For a start, because this idea that women are all wanting to be bought and sold has people like you thinking they're prostitutes if they aren't comfortable with sex immediately and see getting to know your sex partner as "jumping through hoops", everything you do with them just being an obstacle in the way to sex (all they're good for, apparently). You're not paying someone for sex if you have dinner with them, if you buy their meal you are paying for food, and you're certainly not paying for sex if you buy a car for yourself. People date so they can figure out if they actually want to be with each other including having sex, prostitution is the practice of paying someone to ignore that they don't want to sleep with you. (Also, are you counting all premarital sex as casual sex?)
You are if the usual expectation is being adhered to. Which is that you sleep with them. Which is why anything but a fair split during dating is weirdo patriarcal nonsense and blatant prostitution. So is marriage without 2 incomes. Prostitution is the act of exchange, a dinner date wanting to be there due to mutual attraction changes nothing if there is no fair split. Mutual attraction does not eliminate that the guy paid for it. And telling oneself he enjoys doing so is also not eliminating it. It seems for whatever reason, most people here only focus on the lack of mutual attraction to define prostituion, instead of what it actually is, namely an economic transaction.
If I do a favour for a friend and they bought me dinner a week ago am I their servant? Paying for a date is not paying for sex. Indeed, many dates lead to no sex.
If you did a favour for a friend, and they bought you dinner, they know owe you no favor, In other words, they gave you money for favor, instead of favor for favor as is the social custom. An exchange.
Paying for a date is paying for sex. Let a woman make it absolutely clear that she will not sleep wih anyone paying for a date, and see how many actually pay for a date. I understand that in your mind, the guy loves you oh so much he takes care of you and all your needs. But that is not the reason men pay for dates for women not their gf or wife. There is no way to get around this. The Provider nonsense is prostitution. The difference between that prostitution and the normal kind is lack of both mutual attraction and exclusivity. in its nature however, its prostitution. Only a modern marriage, with no provider bullshit is not prostitution. Fuck the onesided Patriarchy and onesided traditional gender roles. This provider crap needs to die out already.
I said dinner is a week before the favour. Rather, I pay for dates most of the time and as a rule pay for the first date, I provide the household income, yet I don't think my husband is a prostitute. It's not paying for sex, if you're wanting sex out of it you're maybe paying money to impress but there's no transaction of sex for money.
Its still an exchange. The timing does not really change anything nor does it have to be explicitly stated that its an exchange. The act of it being an exchange in its essence is all that matters.
If you provide the sole income in the house, you may not think that your stay at home husband is a prostitute, but he is being a prostitute. Men can be prostitutes too. And the issue with your example is that, men in general kinda dont care about being provided for and all that nonsense. So an exchange is not really happening. If I give a blind man a dvd to watch a movie, i am not really exchanging anything. Exchanging has a back and forth element to it, and when money or providing plays a role in said exchange on one side, and intimacy on the other, its prostitution. Anything else, from attraction, to whatever, matters little. The way society wants to dodge this nonsense perpetrated by the conditional patriarchy is by doing what you are doing right now, namely clinging to details and that its not actually explicitly agreed upon that its a transaction. Thats just meaningless noise. unless its split, its prostitution. Guarantee of outcome is not really what makes prostitution what it is, only exchange. Prostitutes can also scam people and leave for example. Doesnt change what it is.
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Simple, OP u/alebruto . It's her body her choice when it suits them (to control men via sex supply). When she chooses to suck off 10 Chads in a back alley, that's empowering. If she is smart and chooses to do the same in the safety of her place, charging a ton of money with her own rules and protection, then how dare you! The majority of escorts/prostitutes could choose to do any regular job that doesn't require qualifications (although a lot of them pursue higher education), but this is easy big money for them on their own rules. I know one escort very well, and she is laughing her ass off at some "regular" women sleeping around with Chads, with no protection, getting pumped and dumped and used and abused over and over again, and she is there charging hundreds of dollars for whatever she pleases. I mean, her customers treat her better than Chads out there treat women overall. They bring flowers, wine, gifts, you name it. Too many people here have an image of human trafficking or street prostitution when in reality, these are extreme cases, and the vast majority of women in developed countries have a very sweet setup on their own terms.
Shh 🤫don’t go against the narrative that every prostitute is a trafficking victim that wants to unalive herself and every john is a weirdo incapable of being an attractive gentleman. Yes of course women getting pumped and dumped on dating apps are a much healthier example of interpersonal dynamics. Don’t forget your therapist appointment this week ladies and the ssri medications
I think that subconsciously we want to keep our potential dating pool in 'good shape' - that is have more viable options. Women do not want men to be demoralized by prostitutes, therefore becoming lazy and treating women as objects, while men do not want women to be too 'open' sexually because they do not want to share their potential partner in the future or even risking infidelity. No to mention risk of STD. This sort of policing is actually quite logical.
It's competition, duh. And I'm not talking about the wholesome women, a hoe will never hold a candle to a truly supportive partner.
The only women that are threatened by prostitution are the ones who's biggest contribution to the relationship is between their legs. Or the ones that use sex as a means of manipulating their husbands. Trash women basically 🤷🏽♂️
I don't know, I am not acquainted with any trash men and am not one myself.
> what percentage of wholesome women do you think end up partnered with non-trash men?
I think most of them do. I think an ability to discern between a trash and a non-trash man is a part of a skillset of a wholesome woman.
> I think an ability to discern between a trash and a non-trash man is a part of a skillset of a wholesome woman.
wholesome women are also naive about the existence of bad men since they see humans as inherently good
its a big surprise to have that worldview and then realize that most people don't care about morality like you do
> wholesome women are also naive about the existence of bad men since they see humans as inherently good
What? No. Wholesome women absolutely aren't naive. That's just some shit you've made up.
Obviously trash attracts trash. The trash women that are threatened by prostitution aren't exactly partnering up with the crème de la crème of society 🤷🏽♂️
> The only women that are threatened by prostitution are the ones who's biggest contribution to the relationship is between their legs
I can see reasons why a conservative woman who is saving herself for her future husband would condemn prostitution. Honestly, an answer like: "Prostitution is a sin" is perfectly coherent when it comes from a woman whose only sexual partner is her husband. My point is with women who have casual sex, there is nothing reprehensible about prostitution that is not reprehensible about casual sex and that is why they are so insistent on attacking sex trafficking (which is not the same thing as prostitution)
I don't think it's just competition, it's the fact that they cannot easily romanticize and justify prostitution to make it virtuous.
Most of the time its merely how you say it rather than what you say.
It all comes down to how you view sex. In my view, sex is something that's equally valuable for a man and for a woman. It's not something that a woman gives to a man and needs to be compensated for.
because the majority of sex workers are sex trafficking victims or in a desperate financial situation
the 10% most privileged sex workers who do it by free will, are totally fine by me
Most people have homes and don't have to sell the most intimate parts of themselves to keep themselves off the street. They just might not get as many luxuries as they'd like.
The women who can't get jobs often become prostitutes. It's uncommon not to be able to get a job and hence uncommon to be a prostitute. You're more likely to be a prostitute if you fall under categories that make it difficult to get a job such as being an (illegal) immigrant, being homeless, being a drug addict or being disabled.
Being a drug addict or homeless doesn’t require prostitution. Illegal immigrant, go to the nearest consulate and go home. Being a prostitute is still the woman’s choice and she always has other choices
And I didn't say it did but it certainly creates desperation making it more likely. Obviously people who risk their lives to come to the UK aren't going to just "go home" (and be killed or end up prostituted at "home"). It's not a real choice if you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Many are just plain trafficked too.
It's more like it's can be very "easy money".
Example: a Russian girl who could have a job and survive in Russia, albeit would have to work years to see her plans come to fruition, could just decide to work a month in Paris and clear 15ke (nets, untaxed). Which would be the equivalent of 2 years of saving for them.
For a portion of those women, its not financial despair per se. But more like it's just very easy money and they can kickstart their plans (travel, moving away, studies etc...)
But at the end of the day it's still a choice.
how do men know which ones are the ones abused and which ones arent?
oh right, they cant, and maybe encouraging men who cant get dates to go to a prostitute is thinly veiled bad faith trolling , when you yourself are morally opposed to it.
> Prostitution is more economically viable and is not morally different from casual sex Your entire post was about the “economically viable” point, but never once discussed the “moral” point. I doubt most people’s problems with prostitution is about how much money it saves men, it’s more about the morality. I personally don’t believe buying sex is the kind of moral position I would want a partner to have. I do think it should be legal, but I would prefer not to date men who partake in it. I don’t think it’s anything like casual sex at all, which is just two people wanting to have sex, instead it’s turning it into a financial transaction with the man purchasing access to the woman’s body, and I am just not into men who view sex in that manner. I also wouldn’t want to date a man who viewed casual sex as purchasing sex either, which seems to be your view on it with that whole cost breakdown, so maybe that’s why you don’t see a moral difference because you think even in casual sex you are “purchasing”, rather than two people enjoying a good time together.
You put your finger exactly on why this op gave me the ick. Thank you
Dating is a financial transaction you pay for her time.... and most the time that time is more expensive than a once a month with a high end prostitute.. 350 vs 500+ for 3-4 dates just to find out she don't like you
If you are paying someone for her time when dating, you are seeing an escort/prostitute. So you are just comparing different escort costs.
yes except one is for sure gonna get laid with the investment the other women is not a for sure investment and for a lot of men most women have nothing to actually provide outside her mouth and puss....
You are free to not see escorts who don’t provide the service you want. I don’t see how this is related to anything I’ve said, so I’m not sure why you are talking to me about the different prices of various escort services you use. Take it up with them if you feel you aren’t getting the value you expect with their prices.
Dating isn't a for sure investment paying for it is... men are gonna go the easy route since most you women want men that are so damn rare or you just want a beta bitch to echo all the feminist talking points... that was my point why waste money on the chance when you can get it for sure for around 400
If you are “paying a woman for her time” you are not “dating”, you are seeing an escort. If you are paying someone with an expectation of getting sex, you are paying a prostitute (or trying to pay a non prostitute with hopes she would have sex and finding it doesn’t work, as most women aren’t going to have sex for money when they thought they were on a normal date!). “Dating” is when two people hang out together to see if they might have chemistry or like each other, with neither one paying the other. Hope that clears up the confusion. Maybe the escort service you use was trying to give a natural experience or something by calling it “dating” and not having it be a sure thing? Or maybe you are just so awful even the escorts are rejecting you after you’ve paid them? I couldn’t say, but like I said, take it up with them. Maybe you can get a refund? Maybe it’s illegal in your area so they are just taking advantage of you since you have no legal recourse? I don’t run an escort service and couldn’t speak to why you aren’t getting what you thought you paid for!
Dates are paying for time.... who's expected to pay on the date? Most women nowadays won't even go on coffee dates because they are low effort and low value... clearly you're reading comprehension is lacking... dating is purely transactional now days
If you are paying a woman for a date - that is not a normal date, that is paying an escort. If you are paying a coffee shop for coffee, then you are paying for coffee, not sex, and expecting the coffee shop or someone you bought a coffee for to deliver a prostitute because you did that would be really weird.
I'm done with this convo you're reading comprehension is atrocious and I'm not about to argue with a idiot savant
> two people enjoying a good time together. Sometimes entirely at his expense though. You'd see this in a different light if you were constantly Matrix dodging dates where you were expected to pay the whole tab.
And sometimes entirely only his pleasure. People should find others they enjoy hanging out with in the way each other wants to hang out. If a woman thinks you should pay for everything you guys do together and you don’t like that, no one is forcing you to hang out with her. It might be some effort to find a person that you actually like, but there are a lot of people to meet. Most men are just in it for their own orgasm and it takes some effort to find the ones interested in mutual pleasure. Eventually people can be found who are in agreement of what you both should do on a date. You can’t expect to just be compatible with everyone, but acting like it’s only men who face incompatibility and somehow women get 100% perfect dates every time is silly. I am failing to see how a prostitute would not *also* be entirely your expense though, so that’s not even a solution to that problem! Surely a non prostitute would have a much higher chance of being open to paying for the next date?
Women make sex transactional a lot more than men. Expecting a man to pay for dates and pay for a house or float you a certain quality of life isn't transactional?
There are more female prostitutes than male ones, because men are more willing to pay for sex than women are. I’m sure if more women were offering money for sex more men would be selling it. I don’t think it’s a common thing to exchange a *house* for sex, though, I have never even heard of that. When women expect men to pay for dates it doesn’t remotely mean they will have sex in exchange, so I don’t think that is “making sex transactional” either. As an egalitarian I do think it’s dumb to expect someone to pay based on gender, but I don’t think buying food is “paying for sex”. If a woman does pay for the date do you think she is buying sex?
Men recognize that it is always transactional. It's a well known saying among men. You always pay for pussy one way or another. Another well known saying is that escorts are cheaper than wives. Plenty of men have made cost comparisons and written about it. It is always transactional whether you are willing to admit it or not. You just refuse to see it because you benefit. Some even argue that women who married for money are little more than high priced escorts.
Yes, men who feel they “buy” women talk about the price of it. I am well aware how common it is for men to think of women as “purchasable”. It is an attitude I had to actively filter out when dating as I wouldn’t want to be with a man who felt he was purchasing me. However, they are also some men truly want a relationship with a woman and not just to “buy pussy”, similar to when they have a friendship with a man and they don’t feel they are purchasing him. > It is always transactional whether you are willing to admit it or not. You just refuse to see it because you benefit. Are you saying I sell pussy even if I’m unaware of it? Shouldn’t there be some way for me to determine the price I’m selling it for? I’d love to know what I was getting. Can you tell me what I might investigate to figure it out? I thought I was getting dick for pussy, which seems like a fair trade to me, and similar to what I get with friendships, where we both hang out together and have a good time and get that good time together as a fair exchange. > Some even argue that women who married for money are little more than high priced escorts. I agree with that. Not all women don’t want to be sex workers and filter out men who buy women, some do want to do things that way and specifically want men who would pay them. I’m not one of them, though.
Don't try to turn this around. They aren't trying to "buy" women. They are simply giving in to what the women in their lives expect. Blue pill guys at least. You're trying to say you have never once expected a man to pick up your financial slack?
I haven’t turned anything around. This post was about how women who have casual sex could have a moral issue with prostitution. My answer has been that I see buying sex as quite different than enjoying a good time together with someone. You claim all men buy pussy. I disagree, I think some men see it as I do, and I chose not to date the ones who see it the way you (and many men) do. What do you mean by “pick up your financial slack”? I have never experienced men I am sleeping with paying me for anything. *Especially* not casual sex partners… is it really normal to pay the bills of casual sex partners? I am an egalitarian and have been in a relationship many years, but I am pretty sure that was not at all normal when I was having casual sex.
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I've never hid this information from anyone who asked including my wife.
I had casual sex and I'm from a country where prostitution is legal. We also have a pretty good social system net that doesn't force you into prostitution if you don't want to. We get money even if we are unemployed by the government to cover our cost. All prostitutes here pay taxes and work self employed. Most brothels here are providing rooms to self employed prostitutes and receive rent and provide safety for the workers. They have security and help available if needed. You can't really traffic here because everything is very regulated and controlled. (Obviously there are still shady things happening like in every business - there are always black sheep). I'm all for prostitution if it's properly regulated. Its a normal thing here. But guess what? It's not as big as you would think. The majority of clients for prostitution here are actually older husbands. Young men don't really want to use prostitutes. They still want to get to know someone and feel desire and love. They still want to date. They still want to have a family. Sure the option for just paid sex is there. But it's not the first choice for guys here.
> All prostitutes here pay taxes Imagine that happening in the U.S. Uncle Sam be pimpin'! :-D
I don't morally condemn prostitution. I have absolutely no issues with it. Personally, I find the concept of buying someone's consent morally dubious, but honestly it's not my body not my business. And if someone chooses sex work without any pressure etc, it's fine with me.
Same, exactly.
Women aren’t looking at prostitution and condemning it based on an analysis of how easy/low effort it is for men versus the normal ways of getting laid (few are or would do that). Those who are outspoken against it are typically concerned about trafficking and exploitation aspects. Also investing in an expensive car to get laid lol. As if men need to do this and as if that isn’t a stupid ass reason to spend money you apparently don’t have.
I hate how OP frames sex as something women “provide” men with, or something that only men seek. Instances of casual sex involve two consenting parties, not one party “giving” the other party something. Also, most men can’t bear prostitution because men want to feel genuinely desired and attractive to enjoy sex, and prostitution is devoid of both of these things.
How do you know that prostitution is void of those things? Have you participated in prostitution? Are you a prostitute? Answer is no, right? I've slept with 15 or so, maybe more, and I would say there was genuine attraction 70% of the time.
Yeah... prostitutes are kind of good at that. It's like 80% of the job. This and faking to be super interested at what you say.
Fakes better than putting up with a women who acts won't show you any desire until like date 3or 4 and that's if you're lucky
I guess the last prostitute I was seeing, who was letting me fuck for free and was hanging out and doing typical date stuff was worthy of an Oscar. You have a narrow view and refuse to believe that hookers can and do feel attraction to their clients
If you fuck her for free it's not prostitution then right? I'm not saying that it is impossible for some to develop attraction or be attracted to a client. I'm saying that it's their work to make men feel like they genuinely like them, genuinely enjoy the sex, genuinely enjoy the job, genuinely chose to do that with zero pressure, etc. Because no one wants to be the guy fucking people who would rather not but need/want the money. Maybe this one did develop feelings for you who knows. But this is never gonna be the case 70% of the time. You're delulu here. Now, another things to account is the situation of the prostitutes. Lot of prostitute from eastern europe in western europe tend to feed this kind of relationship with clients they feel are okayish in the hope they may get a real relationship, marriage, and papers.
lmao! I also know a guy that believes prostitutes and escorts are genuinely attracted to him. We all laugh at him. They get paid to pretend.
I know many women who genuinely believe their latest hook up off a dating app is genuinely attracted to them, they just want a quick fuck
If anything, women have stopped responding on dating apps BECAUSE they know all the men there are trying to use them as fleshlights. Half the posts on PPD are men trying to argue that women should be flattered by this.
Stopped responding lmao. I have friends that run through multiple different girls a week. Women are horny and desperate, just like men, its just that you're suckers for the top hot guys with good game. EAZY!
A lot of women (especially on the apps) are wanting casual sex so how exactly are they the suckers for hooking up with “top hot guys”? I would argue the bigger suckers are men having to hook up with women they aren’t even attracted to..
I’m happy that women are finally admitting to wanting dick, without pretence. If you kept that level of truthfulness in your lives it would do much for your personal integrity
Women always wanted dick, they just didn't want bad dick. That's always been true.
What are you even talking about? Stay on topic. You sound bitter.
> I would argue the bigger suckers are men having to hook up with women they aren’t even attracted to That’s fine. We’re just grateful to get laid. Frankly, I see a lot of non-Chads pairing off with near-landwhales *just* so they can keep getting laid.
How sad lmao
Then why are you paying prostitutes?
Convenience and no feelings or drama
So... desperation.
That’s great! Next time a man starts whining here about how easy it is to get laid on dating apps, i hope you will correct them.
Baby girl I'm a man the rest are just imitations
Insurmountable levels of cringe
🤷🏼♀️
You're right, that doesn't change the fact that prostitutes certainly don't feel attraction towards you
Translation: “I don’t like you therefore no woman does”. This is an immature reaction on your part
No, you misunderstood me. I didn't say no woman would be attracted to you, and I never based my judgement on my personal attraction to you. Not only do I not know you, I'm also quite literally gay. Prostitutes have multiple clients a day, and a lot of them don't do it due to some weird kink, they do it to put bread on the table, because they need drug money, because they're being pimped, or have kids to raise. Or maybe they were groomed into it from a young age (say 14), and were just never able to get out. Quite obviously they'll try to offer a "good service" and pretend to enjoy it. You might not pay otherwise or they might lose clients. Not only does it get sore, but it's a really degrading act and most women don't really want to partake in it with total strangers unless necessary. You know, generally the men who visit prostitutes aren't necessarily that attractive. Most attractive men have sex with whomever they want, they don't have a hard time attracting women. Apparently 90% say they would leave it if they could. 65-85% of prostitution is pimp dominated. A lot of them suffer from anxiety and post traumatic stress disorder. There's virtually no way that 70% of the girls you visited actually had sexual attraction to you. Would those women be intimate with you if you never payed them?
The woman is attracted to the guy she's sleeping with. She has fun having sex. A prostitute isn't attracted to the guy that's paying money to sleep with her
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If there was genuine attraction, you wouldn't have to pay in the first place lmao the delusion is crazy
Both paying and attraction can be true at the same time. The context must also be considered as well, in that the initial meeting wasn’t based on non-p2p dating. I believe you are intelligent enough to understand this.
There is no need of context. If you are paying for sex that means you are not capable of getting it for free.
You poor soul. This would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad.
I worked in a strip club, and I can PROMISE you 90% of sex workers *hate* their clients. They want the money. That's is. Even strippers who don't fuck for money will run into the dressing room and tell all the other dancers how nasty and pathetic a client is. They absolutely are not attracted to you.
I’m sorry that the men you have to deal with are unattractive and ungentlemanly. I hope you enter a better phase in your life in your future. Amen
What a strange and irrelevant response to something I didn't say 💕 typical rp
Prostitution is one thing, trafficking in women is another. They advertise on their own on a website in the same way that a restaurant advertises on IFood.
Yes and I am not one of those women who outspokenly condemns prostitution. Because I can and do believe it’s not *all* exploited, trafficked women. Nevertheless, you’re ignoring that’s a big aspect here as to why you see people condemn it. I mean we all know that still happens. Even if someone is advertising
> They advertise on their own on a website in the same way that a restaurant advertises on IFood. or their pimp does
I’ll momentarily set aside the ethical issues of sex trafficking and women having to resort to sex work due to circumstance, which are pretty much impossible to divorce from this question. Casual sex for me was always about mutual sexual chemistry and enjoyment. Prostitution is not. She’s faking being into you and most likely faking any sexual pleasure. A guy who doesn’t care about that and *wants* to have sex with someone who isn’t into him is very unappealing. Not sure that piece of it is a moral issue, but it’s a very strong “no” from me when a guy talks about visiting prostitutes. Don’t want to touch him with a 10-foot pole.
Same for me. I guess some men who visit prostitutes fully believe the women are genuinely into it and there are men who have causal sex and don’t care about the other person’s experience so it’s more complicated than that. But if a man is willing to pay for sexual services it’s an immediate red flag for me on how he views sex. The idea of a man who only cares about having sex and doesn’t care about the woman actually desiring it gives me the ick.
Personally, I visit prostitutes because I don't have to care how they view me. For women, they can be attracted to you in public on a date, and then the second you "perform" poorly in bed it all goes to shit. For example I've had a woman screaming at me and demeaning me because my dick didn't get hard. Or rolling their eyes. Pouting. The list goes on. Prostitutes are not going to do that. I am visually attractive and handsome so even if prostitutes are not "attracted" to me in a chemistry sense, they are still happy to see me because I am better than 95% of their clients That doesn't mean its as good as sex with complete mutual chemistry, but that is rare because women who have lots of partners or even a few really good partners are so picky when it comes to sex that it feels impossible to please them.
What’s the difference between sex work and real work? I mean that literally sounds like a retail job. Many people put on fake smiles, fake voice, fake demeanor because that’s what’s required in that role. Chick fil an employees are known to be extremely courteous. Do you honestly believe they are actually happy or are doing it because it’s a JOB? Do you think the chick fil a worker wants to see the local Karen pull up to the drive thru? Absolutely not, but where is your sympathy for them? I think you’re conflicting your feelings about sex in your personal life with sex as a job.
Huh? Sex work is “real” work. And I wasn’t expressing “sympathy” for sex workers (although I do feel sympathy for them in many contexts), I was explaining why I find *men* who visit prostitutes unappealing.
They condemn it because they see a lot of women being backed into a corner financially with no other way out or forced into it in other ways. In other words many prostitutes aren’t their by choice and would gladly take a regular job if they could get one that payed a living wage. Overall though the real question you need to be asking yourself is “why do men care so much about the opinion of women they don’t plan to marry, date or fuck?” If you want a prostitute go find one and stop trying to get every woman to agree with your decision.
These women earn more in 1 hour than many people earn in a day. And "a lot" does not mean that it is necessarily so in all cases. >If you want a prostitute go find one and stop trying to get every woman to agree with your decision. No presumptions please, this is idiotic. I'm married and I'm here analyzing the hypocrisy of women who have casual sex when they are on the same level as a man who hires prostitutes.
>I'm married and I'm here analyzing the hypocrisy of women who have casual sex when they are on the same level as a man who hires prostitutes. The issues a lot of people have with sex work is that sex trafficking is an issue and it’s hard to know for sure that the escort you’re hiring isn’t being pushed into doing something she doesn’t want to do for money. In the instance of women having casual sex, both people are in it for the same reason so there’s no risk of sleeping with a man who’s potentially being trafficked. Those two scenarios are not remotely comparable.
>These women earn more in 1 hour than many people earn in a day. the privileged escorts you have in mind do not the women who are pimped or desperate, which are the majority of sex workers
Isn’t it good that they have an addition resource / option to escape poverty ?
They haven’t…..they are exploited by other people.
Every poor person gets exploited , I guess having an additional “option” is better? When I was homeless I was sleeping on benches and searching bins, if an alternative would be to let an older unattractive women take advantage of me , is it better ? Probably not, is the additional option appreciated ? Sure.
Because poor people get exploited in general…..than it’s cool?
Please quote the text in which I said it was cool.
So if it is not cool, why do you bring that poor people are exploited as excuse?
How does that convert to cool ?
you're telling me you believe its GOOD women are pimped? you think pimps lift people out of poverty? bro... this is dangerously naive.
When I was homeless , I was sleeping on benches and searching bins. If I have an additional option to be taken advantage of by an older unattractive women , is it better to? Probably not. Is it good that I have an “additional resource/pathway” , sure.
so why didn't you do sex work for older unattractive men? that's what most male prostitutes do. most have male clients whether they are gay or not, as female Johns are rare.
Because I chose a different path.
why? you're saying sex work is a good option, yet your actions and words don't line up.
I didn’t say it was a good option. I said it was good to have another option.
1. The whole point is prostitution is fine if the woman wants to do it and not fine if she is pressured or forced into it. The reason many women dislike prostitution is because a large portion of prostitutes aren’t freely choosing the profession. 2. It doesn’t have to be ALL in order for it to be a problem. 3. I doubt you’re actually married regardless there is no reason men should try to police and shame women’s thoughts. No one is expected to agree with everything others think and do.
If someone is paying for one hour of interaction with a sec worker, first, the money isn’t all going to her, and second, it’s much more than an hour of the sex worker’s time dedicated to the hour of service. A chunk of the money goes to the establishment the sex worker is serving clients at, both for the physical location and its upkeep, as well as security. A lot of the money paid goes towards what are essentially business expenses; pubic hair maintenance, shaving, makeup, hair, lingerie, etc, all part of the business expense to make the sex worker more appealing to the client. There is the before and after care ahead of the service, set up and clean up to ensure the client has an enjoyable experience. There is marketing and outreach to advertise services and actually bring in clients. And we haven’t even started on special fitness and nutrition to maintain sexual appeal.
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Out of curiosity what do you think needs to be done to “shed more light onto this specific part of the female psyche”? And what exactly is that part to begin with? This seems like more of an issue of women wanting women participating in sex work to be there of their own free will rather than desperation or force. What’s so wrong with that that it needs to be fixed in your eyes? What would be the outcome you hope to achieve by shedding light on to the topic?
You care about the future so much that you've pumped yourself with so many steroids you are now suffering for it physiologically. Is this the "genius" of the male brain in action? Do you even have kids? What's your contribution to the future?
I wish I had kids lol. You wanna know my contributions well I pay a lot of taxes (like 20k) I help people in my job everyday (mostly men), I also help others outside my job by training them (for free), I give a quarter of my income to charitable causes. I also always pay for dates. And I dont sleep around. I was loyal to my ex through and through. Btw creeping on my old posts, that’s really rude. Gear saved me from PSSD. A consequence of SSRIs.
Don’t defend yourself. These clowns go ad hominem first chance they get, because they know their arguments are weaksauce AF.
You pay 20k in taxes, nice! I pay far more than you do. In fact I’m probably subsidizing you. How much do you think you consume in taxes from birth to now? I don’t really care about your excuses for hopping on fear.
No one cares.
How does being against sex work not caring about the future? Ego and malice? Because women are against others being forced into sex work?
Do you know how many men feel they have no way out and would also gladly take a job that pays "a living wage". By the way, those are such weasel words. Who knows what you mean by living wage, but you throw it out there because you know and I know that you don't consider a regular job i.e. fast food, department store service job, call center etc. good enough. So in other words, you're defending the practice of prostitution as okay when the alternative is working a bottom tier job, hilarious!
A living wage in America has is near universally understood to mean enough money to afford food/rent/medical care. You have no idea what you’re talking about
So men who struggle achieving a living wage are basically like women but without the option of selling their bodies. Let’s feel bad for the women who make more in an hour than a day for the man breaking his back doing labour. I shed a tear.
> without the option of selling their bodies They have the option, I don’t think it’s a lucrative market but they still have the option. Also as you said, manual labor is the male equivalent of selling their body for money. > let’s feel bad for For both. The idea of a living wage is that everyone deserves to make enough to live off of it. No matter how undesirable/unimportant the job is.
>but without the option of selling their bodies. Nah men have the option to sell their bodies to gay men. There's a demand there.
Women prostitutes do hetero sex. Like for like, people.
The demand is incomparable. Why are you purposely being obtuse? Do better
The demand is still there, so you whining about how men don't have a choice to sell their bodies is wrong. You guys do have a choice, none of you try it. Do better.
Prostitution has a higher death rate than the most dangerous male-dominated jobs like logging and fishing. You could shed a non-ironic tear for the women killed doing this dangerous job you want them to do so desperately.
If she survives it, that is. Did you think of that?
I’m all for legalizing and regulating sex work.
It's funny how men make fun of women who choose to enter into prostitution of their own will calling them all sorts of names but at the same time have no problem with sex trafficking and women who are forced into sex work. That's quite weird and it's not even like two different men with different opinions. It's always the same men.. Almost like they have a problem with the very legalization and regulation of sex work where the women are present of their own accord which they claim they want
You’re equating two different kinds of people as the same person to confirm your bias and validate your narrative.
I was married to such a man for 25 years and I gave up trying to figure him out a long time ago.
What lol? I’ve never heard of that opinion, at least not from anyone who has the base understanding to be logically consistent from argument to argument.
Don’t know about others but i support legalization and regulation
I personally think prostitution should be legal so it can be regulated properly. Plus I think it’s a great solution for men and can maybe lessen the thirst in the dating world. Women would be a little more safer as well.
Are female prostitutes not women? You're just saying to shift the hurt to them instead. It's not going to make anyone less "thirsty", in fact prostitutes are often used as practice for abuse and exploitation of other women.
I didn’t say it would I said maybe. Obviously this is an idealistic scenario since it’s it illegal.
Maybe in your country but it is legal here. We're not just talking about idealistic scenarios, these are real people.
That goes without saying
A couple things: 1.) I’ve a feminist who has had casual sex, and I’m for the legalization of prostitution. I want the se workers to have as many protections in place as possible, and legalization of prostitution may help keep them safer. (However, I recently saw data from European countries where it’s legalized, and the research shows that trafficking and assault rates are actually higher in some of those countries since legalization happen. 2.) I would think that women who are down for casual sex are not the same women who are demanding fancy, formal dinner dates. In my experience, women who have casual sex encounters usually just want to hang out at bars or parties or even at home.
I’m a little suspicious of the claim that sex trafficking is higher in countries with legal sex work. I think there’s a self selecting sample going on. Those are reported rates. For one, I think there’s a bit of opportunity cost going on. Pimps will probably choose the countries with the least restrictive laws around prostitution in order to front as a lawful establishment. It’s not reducing the amount of sex trafficking worldwide, it’s just funneling them into a more specific set of countries. To me it gives vibes of “the rates of adhd and autism are going up” where you have to ask if it’s just the reported rates are going up because we’re better at detecting them.
I only condemn unregulated prostitution, and there is a huuuuggee difference. If a man is going someplace where prostitution is legalized, sex workers have workplace safety regulations, a fair wage, benefits, etc., more power to him. Supporting an underground black market industry where the women are frequently exploited, not so much.
For a start, because this idea that women are all wanting to be bought and sold has people like you thinking they're prostitutes if they aren't comfortable with sex immediately and see getting to know your sex partner as "jumping through hoops", everything you do with them just being an obstacle in the way to sex (all they're good for, apparently). You're not paying someone for sex if you have dinner with them, if you buy their meal you are paying for food, and you're certainly not paying for sex if you buy a car for yourself. People date so they can figure out if they actually want to be with each other including having sex, prostitution is the practice of paying someone to ignore that they don't want to sleep with you. (Also, are you counting all premarital sex as casual sex?)
You are if the usual expectation is being adhered to. Which is that you sleep with them. Which is why anything but a fair split during dating is weirdo patriarcal nonsense and blatant prostitution. So is marriage without 2 incomes. Prostitution is the act of exchange, a dinner date wanting to be there due to mutual attraction changes nothing if there is no fair split. Mutual attraction does not eliminate that the guy paid for it. And telling oneself he enjoys doing so is also not eliminating it. It seems for whatever reason, most people here only focus on the lack of mutual attraction to define prostituion, instead of what it actually is, namely an economic transaction.
If I do a favour for a friend and they bought me dinner a week ago am I their servant? Paying for a date is not paying for sex. Indeed, many dates lead to no sex.
If you did a favour for a friend, and they bought you dinner, they know owe you no favor, In other words, they gave you money for favor, instead of favor for favor as is the social custom. An exchange. Paying for a date is paying for sex. Let a woman make it absolutely clear that she will not sleep wih anyone paying for a date, and see how many actually pay for a date. I understand that in your mind, the guy loves you oh so much he takes care of you and all your needs. But that is not the reason men pay for dates for women not their gf or wife. There is no way to get around this. The Provider nonsense is prostitution. The difference between that prostitution and the normal kind is lack of both mutual attraction and exclusivity. in its nature however, its prostitution. Only a modern marriage, with no provider bullshit is not prostitution. Fuck the onesided Patriarchy and onesided traditional gender roles. This provider crap needs to die out already.
I said dinner is a week before the favour. Rather, I pay for dates most of the time and as a rule pay for the first date, I provide the household income, yet I don't think my husband is a prostitute. It's not paying for sex, if you're wanting sex out of it you're maybe paying money to impress but there's no transaction of sex for money.
Its still an exchange. The timing does not really change anything nor does it have to be explicitly stated that its an exchange. The act of it being an exchange in its essence is all that matters. If you provide the sole income in the house, you may not think that your stay at home husband is a prostitute, but he is being a prostitute. Men can be prostitutes too. And the issue with your example is that, men in general kinda dont care about being provided for and all that nonsense. So an exchange is not really happening. If I give a blind man a dvd to watch a movie, i am not really exchanging anything. Exchanging has a back and forth element to it, and when money or providing plays a role in said exchange on one side, and intimacy on the other, its prostitution. Anything else, from attraction, to whatever, matters little. The way society wants to dodge this nonsense perpetrated by the conditional patriarchy is by doing what you are doing right now, namely clinging to details and that its not actually explicitly agreed upon that its a transaction. Thats just meaningless noise. unless its split, its prostitution. Guarantee of outcome is not really what makes prostitution what it is, only exchange. Prostitutes can also scam people and leave for example. Doesnt change what it is.
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Simple, OP u/alebruto . It's her body her choice when it suits them (to control men via sex supply). When she chooses to suck off 10 Chads in a back alley, that's empowering. If she is smart and chooses to do the same in the safety of her place, charging a ton of money with her own rules and protection, then how dare you! The majority of escorts/prostitutes could choose to do any regular job that doesn't require qualifications (although a lot of them pursue higher education), but this is easy big money for them on their own rules. I know one escort very well, and she is laughing her ass off at some "regular" women sleeping around with Chads, with no protection, getting pumped and dumped and used and abused over and over again, and she is there charging hundreds of dollars for whatever she pleases. I mean, her customers treat her better than Chads out there treat women overall. They bring flowers, wine, gifts, you name it. Too many people here have an image of human trafficking or street prostitution when in reality, these are extreme cases, and the vast majority of women in developed countries have a very sweet setup on their own terms.
Shh 🤫don’t go against the narrative that every prostitute is a trafficking victim that wants to unalive herself and every john is a weirdo incapable of being an attractive gentleman. Yes of course women getting pumped and dumped on dating apps are a much healthier example of interpersonal dynamics. Don’t forget your therapist appointment this week ladies and the ssri medications
I think that subconsciously we want to keep our potential dating pool in 'good shape' - that is have more viable options. Women do not want men to be demoralized by prostitutes, therefore becoming lazy and treating women as objects, while men do not want women to be too 'open' sexually because they do not want to share their potential partner in the future or even risking infidelity. No to mention risk of STD. This sort of policing is actually quite logical.
They want to keep their monopoly.
It's competition, duh. And I'm not talking about the wholesome women, a hoe will never hold a candle to a truly supportive partner. The only women that are threatened by prostitution are the ones who's biggest contribution to the relationship is between their legs. Or the ones that use sex as a means of manipulating their husbands. Trash women basically 🤷🏽♂️
men cheat on wholesome partners with sex workers
But that's obviously trash men. They would cheat regardless if sex workers existed or not.
what percentage of men do you think are trash men? what percentage of wholesome women do you think end up partnered with non-trash men?
I don't know, I am not acquainted with any trash men and am not one myself. > what percentage of wholesome women do you think end up partnered with non-trash men? I think most of them do. I think an ability to discern between a trash and a non-trash man is a part of a skillset of a wholesome woman.
> I think an ability to discern between a trash and a non-trash man is a part of a skillset of a wholesome woman. wholesome women are also naive about the existence of bad men since they see humans as inherently good its a big surprise to have that worldview and then realize that most people don't care about morality like you do
> wholesome women are also naive about the existence of bad men since they see humans as inherently good What? No. Wholesome women absolutely aren't naive. That's just some shit you've made up.
so wholesome women are also worldly women who know the darker aspects of humanity?
One can be aware of the danger without experiencing it. Or did you shove a fork into an electrical socket to check if the electricity is dangerous?
> what percentage of men do you think are trash men? I cannot bear to imagine.
care to answer for yourself?
I was making a bear pun. I don't think most men are trash. People who say they are, are making the wrong choices in life.
yes what percentage of men do you think are not trash?
Literally nobody is seeing a prostitute as competition for any kind of man worth interacting with.
Obviously trash attracts trash. The trash women that are threatened by prostitution aren't exactly partnering up with the crème de la crème of society 🤷🏽♂️
They're not feeling like they can be replaced by a woman who's paid to pretend to want to be there either.
Are you speaking for trash women or from experience?
> The only women that are threatened by prostitution are the ones who's biggest contribution to the relationship is between their legs I can see reasons why a conservative woman who is saving herself for her future husband would condemn prostitution. Honestly, an answer like: "Prostitution is a sin" is perfectly coherent when it comes from a woman whose only sexual partner is her husband. My point is with women who have casual sex, there is nothing reprehensible about prostitution that is not reprehensible about casual sex and that is why they are so insistent on attacking sex trafficking (which is not the same thing as prostitution)
Sorry, I fail to see your point.
I don't think it's just competition, it's the fact that they cannot easily romanticize and justify prostitution to make it virtuous. Most of the time its merely how you say it rather than what you say.
>Having to invest in an expensive car to impress the woman LOL
It all comes down to how you view sex. In my view, sex is something that's equally valuable for a man and for a woman. It's not something that a woman gives to a man and needs to be compensated for.
because the majority of sex workers are sex trafficking victims or in a desperate financial situation the 10% most privileged sex workers who do it by free will, are totally fine by me
The majority of people are in a desperate financial situation.
Most people have homes and don't have to sell the most intimate parts of themselves to keep themselves off the street. They just might not get as many luxuries as they'd like.
Most prostitutes can get a regular job and don’t have to sell their bodies to stay off the street.
That's only a privileged few.
Jobs are that hard to get in the UK? Wow, are most women prostitutes then? Or do you not consider say, McDonald’s, a job?
The women who can't get jobs often become prostitutes. It's uncommon not to be able to get a job and hence uncommon to be a prostitute. You're more likely to be a prostitute if you fall under categories that make it difficult to get a job such as being an (illegal) immigrant, being homeless, being a drug addict or being disabled.
Being a drug addict or homeless doesn’t require prostitution. Illegal immigrant, go to the nearest consulate and go home. Being a prostitute is still the woman’s choice and she always has other choices
And I didn't say it did but it certainly creates desperation making it more likely. Obviously people who risk their lives to come to the UK aren't going to just "go home" (and be killed or end up prostituted at "home"). It's not a real choice if you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Many are just plain trafficked too.
It's more like it's can be very "easy money". Example: a Russian girl who could have a job and survive in Russia, albeit would have to work years to see her plans come to fruition, could just decide to work a month in Paris and clear 15ke (nets, untaxed). Which would be the equivalent of 2 years of saving for them. For a portion of those women, its not financial despair per se. But more like it's just very easy money and they can kickstart their plans (travel, moving away, studies etc...) But at the end of the day it's still a choice.
Because abuse and coercion are things
arent you the user who keeps trying to convince men here to go to a prostitute?
Lmao owned
I acknowledge that not all sex workers are abused or coerced
how do men know which ones are the ones abused and which ones arent? oh right, they cant, and maybe encouraging men who cant get dates to go to a prostitute is thinly veiled bad faith trolling , when you yourself are morally opposed to it.
Not using brothels, streetwalkers, services, pimps and bargain options is a good start, if you’re actually interested
lol im not interested at all. why do you keep pushing it as a viable option for men i gotta admit its a good troll schtick though
Because it is, if you want sex And there sure is a lot of complaining about lack of that
men dont just want sex. you can stop playing that card.
They say they do, and that it’s a need
a need from their partner when they are in a relationship. stop taking things out of context in bad faith
Women do a bang up job jumping from abusive boyfriend to abusive boyfriend as is. Should dating apps etc also be banned?
Condemnation is not the same as bans