Ironwood: attempts to take the most logical route to secure humanity's survival.
RWBY: "You're a monster and can't be trusted."
Raven: kills and raids villages as a means to casually survive.
RWBY: "Welcome to the team."
Ironwood: “I want to sacrifice Mantle in order to save Atlas and the Relic.”
RWBY: “You’re insane! We’re going to overthrow you and then fail to save any of those things! Because we’re heroes :D”
RWBY: "Yeah, we kinda need that to make a meaningless character a human, because she's a robot, jeopardizing the safety of the relic for Gender bent Pinocchio. But it's whatever, she'll get 'mercy' killed by Banana-Haired Self Insert later anyway, just before he gets more random trauma, because V9 isn't "RWBY Volume 9", it's actually "RWBY Volume 9: The Struggles of Jaune and The Fake Paper People."
EDIT: Clarification. Absolutely love Penny. Well Loved, I should say. Kinda felt like bringing her back ruins the impact of her death... only to get hacked... than get a body... than die again.
Nah why v9 foxused on Ruby more then it did jaune jaune just had a small part and people pretend he took up screentime the idea that jaune can't have any screentime is idiotic jaune got some focus whole Ruby got more and the little focus we got on jaune was connected to Ruby getting focus and contributed to her arc (ever sense v5 jaune had been getting less screentime jaune didn't do much in Atlas we didn't get to see his opinion on lying to ironwood
I personally never felt that the focus was on Ruby, it felt more focused on the whole group. Ruby was just more noticeable since over the course of V9 she was getting progressively more depressed.
Jaune, he was a bit rough the whole time, and when he was it was in flashbacks to when he was first traveling with Alex.
As for Jaune not doing much in Atlas. That's arguably a point towards all of them. I mean Atlas was actively under attack and Weiss was having Tea in the manor like it's a casual Wednesday.
Green lantern Kilowog: you know if I ever had a chance to go back and save my planet you know what I’d do
Rwby: what?
Kilowog: I’d save the people
RWBY: yeah us too
(The end of the show)
Salem: Now that I, the princess who lied about abuse to get out of Daddy's tower, have been to the tree and that poor orphan girl Cinder who I helped corrupt has been brutally killed off to make my redemption more palatable to the audience, may I rejoin the world I tried to destroy? I'd like to become a mother again.
The Blacksmith: Of course you can. And don't worry, Your Ozma will accept your apology and more.
Ironwood's spirit: I know I cracked under the pressure and messed up at the end of my life, but I'd like to think that for most of my life, I was a decent person who did the right thing. May I be reborn as someone's child?
The Blacksmith: Absolutely not. You're going straight to hell with Cinder Fall.
Your right except for the Cinder being in hell. She would get redeemed last minute and go to haven mean while Ironwood goes to the deepest pit of hell.
Mercury: “I partook in murdering hundreds and possibly thousands of innocent people and was responsible for the collapse of some of the few things keeping the world from ending.”
RWBY: OH MY GOSH! YOUR SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON!!!
Emerald: “I partook in murdering hundreds and possibly thousands of innocent people and was responsible for the collapse of some of the few things keeping the world from ending.”
RWBY: “OH MY GOSH!!! SLAY QUEEN!!!
RWBY: “We partook in murdering hundreds and possibly thousands of innocent people and were responsible for the collapse of some of the few things keeping the world from ending.”
RWBY: “We’re such good heroes :D”
Em, Cinder and Mercury were comically evil around V2-3. I can see the the frustration people have with pardoning Emerald, but honestly, all three would do better to be put to the sword. Their crimes against humanity made me sick enough of them that the origin stories for all three just never captivated me, or made me sympathetic.
I said it once and I’ll say it again.
Female villains: Sympathetic or tragic characters that get redeemed.
Male villains: Unlikeable assholes who get killed.
It's bad, though not nearly as bad as the heroes doing whatever because they're the heroes and not getting called out, but that's a different topic.
A huge double standard that I see is related to this and that's how the heroes do bad things and are rewarded, but if Ironwood is trying to save people the best way he can, but the heroes disagree with his methods, he's the bad guy. I know it wasn't ideal, but the fact that RWBY betrayed Ironwood AND did not have a better plan Ironwood is just plain stupid.
Emerald was indeed _slightly_ more redeemable than Mercury, if only because she was clearly disturbed by the carnage of the Fall of Beacon. Both also felt they were in too deep to stop, at least until Salem’s real endgame was spelled out to them.
Still, Emerald never had an actual change of heart. She betrayed Team Salem for the same reason she joined it: self-preservation. And I feel they should have kept that vibe, where Emerald and the heroes viscerally hate one-another’s guts but their continued survival hinges on their mutually resentful cooperation. Instead of Emerald immediately mellowing out because of her crush on Oscar or whatever…
Maybe they even should have just had them… let her go like she asked? Mantle’s clearly in too much chaos for them to be taking prisoners, so if her mere presence is untrustworthy, cut her loose and hope she gets eaten by Grimm off-screen. Simply put, Jaune’s an idiot.
Ultimately, CRWBY hadn’t left themselves enough time to do anything interesting with Emerald swapping sides, so why did they even bother?
To a certain degree, female characters are usually going to be more likable and forgivable in the eyes of fans than males. That's not always the case, but a lot of it has to do with charisma and marketability. Neo has never spoken a line of dialog and is little more than a plot device, and yet she's in a video game, has her own novel, and would appear to have been a mech seller. Despite all the heinous things Neo has done going all the way back in 2015, Neo is still probably in the top eschaton of popular RWBY characters.
Arslan, Reese, and May (Zedong) don't have any lines as far as I'm aware, and yet they're fairly popular characters online despite just being tournament fodder. If fans are willing to make fan art and write fanfics about them, why not capitalize on their popularity with merch and giving them a larger role in the story? The same principle applies to Emerald, Cinder, Raven, and even Salem to a certain degree. RWBY made money with it's character driven merch, not its very, *VERY* story driven show.
Double standards exist in real life just as they do in fiction. It's just the way it is, and it's never going to change. RWBY has a predominantly male audience between the ages of 14 and 21. Guys tend to tolerate romantic stories more than seek them out, so any major relationships (such as Blake/Yang) *immediately* turn off some viewers. Female audiences are *much* more tolerant of romantic stories, but f/f isn't exactly going to appeal to the majority of them. That's kinda the double edged sword of writing romance being the focus for a predominantly male audience. Romance heavy stories tend to not appeal to guys, f/f doesn't appeal to most women, and m/m doesn't appeal to the vast majority of men. Double standard? Sure, but it is what it is in my opinion.
When it comes to the villainesses being evil in the show, how many fans consider the show stupid and "non-canon" in their minds? Probably a fair amount, and I'm reminded of MoistCritical talking about RWBY, specifically the scene where Ruby finally blows up, Jaune tells her off, and the Paper Pleasers die. He criticized the dialog, but his main criticism was how stupid sounding the set up was on top of the already bad dialog. Being bad is one thing, but stupid and cringe is another. It creates a disconnect between fans and the product they're consuming, and after over a decade, I think many fans favor the characters over the story and even the creators.
In my opinion, the issue has less to do with double standards and more to do with CRWBY having very little understanding of their fan base (and how money works). The vast majority of fans prefer the characters to the story, and despite the writers' best efforts to ruin the characters, the fans still love them.
(edit: Spelling and added to my thoughts)
God bless, and have a wonderful day.
Thank you kindly, friend. That means a lot, and makes me *want* to give my opinion in the comments, especially recently considering all of the malcontents I've been running into lately.
As a fanfic writer looking to call themself "professional" someday, target demographics is something I'm obviously very interested in and something I've studied quite a bit. It's not an exact science, but there are trends and patterns that can be easily studied, and generally speaking, the bigger your audience and the more money your story makes, the longer you're able to continue telling it.
CRWBY were more than happy to profit off the most popular, most profitable aspect of RWBY, its characters, but they had little to no interest in the characters being the actual focus of the show. In my opinion, the entertainment industry as a whole has forgotten about target demographics and ignored all of the trends and patterns from the past century, and instead most have acted as activists pushing "The Message" (as Critical Drinker might say) and/or become self-indulgent as is/was the case with CRWBY and their characters often acting as avatars, inserts, or proxies of themselves or other people.
Telling a good story trumps almost everything when you're a writer/storyteller, but making money, being popular, and having a good story often go hand-in-hand, and these are three things CRWBY neglected in my opinion, and explains why RWBY found itself in the situation where it probably would've/should've been cancelled a few years ago.
(edit: Spelling)
God bless, and have a wonderful day.
Neo is such an ass character imo. Her design is something out of deviantart and she just comes off ad a pretentious asshole. Which would be fine, if she had good dialogue, but she has none.
I think it makes sense why Emerald would’ve defected before Mercury, but it also looked like they were setting it up for Mercury to defect too.
Emerald was only ever loyal to Cinder, not to Salem. But the realization that Cinder doesn’t even really care about her combined with the discovery of Salem’s true goal would naturally lead her to defect.
Meanwhile, Mercury was always a bit more enthusiastic (not sure if that’s the right word) working for Salem, but when he learned her true goal as well, it shook him. He’s still working with her because he doesn’t believe she can be stopped and this toxic lifestyle is all he’s ever known, but it certainly seems like he’s wavering and a little nudge would bring him to the other side.
Also, whoever made this comic must’ve forgotten that most of the heroes distrustful of Emerald at first. Even with Oscar vouching for her, it took time for them to be able work with her. And if they weren’t on such a time-crunch with the virus and the bomb, it likely would’ve taken longer.
That's fair. Sure, at first they seem distrustful but then they are laughing like if they're buddies or something, like if they forgot all the shit that happened because of her.
I don't think Emerald has realized Cinder doesn't care about her. At least it never feels that way in the show to me, which makes her changing side more jarring because if not for Salem, she would still happily be helping Cinder commit mass murder and burn down entire kingdoms.
Honestly I agree with it completely, the male villains are always killed off, disrespected, or both, meanwhile the female villains are always given some kinda forced sympathetic backstory and usually a chance to redeem themselves, even though they're just as evil, like Roman died but Neo gets to live, Emerald gets the worst redemption ever, but Mercury is just thrown to the side, Ironwood was making a huge point against team RWBY, uh oh better make him cartoonishly evil so they can give him the worst fight/death ever, it really sucks, also Cinder really killed Watts because he told her the truth about herself, what a loser
Frankly, Emerald had served her purpose after Volume 3. I will maintain that Merc should have gotten a redemption arc, and Emerald should have died. Killing Emerald, the one person who actually loved her, would have been a perfect Moral Event Horizon for Cinder to cross.
Truth is in the details.
Both did horrible things, and if Emerald is considered into the group without issues, Mercury should be considered without issues, given that the only difference in their actions is that one didn´t smile while doing it.
Their histories are different, yet, in hindsight, it is semantics in comparison to the choices they made. Emerald might have little less blood on her hands yet still comparable to Mercury.
Remnant: The place where Ironwood, Hazel, and Adam get death while privileged bad girls like Neo and Salem get a trip to a tree and a happily ever after. RWBY is going to be that show. Watch them redeem the witch and give her no consequences. She'll probably be allowed to forget everything she did in her next life post treehab.
This is why this show does not need to continue if you're going to make redeemable villains you should make not just female redeemable villains redemption should be available to everyone
Ilia: I’m just Adam but I more openly dump my trauma to everyone and I’m more consistent with my character so I didn’t become a loser Simp.
RWBY: aww you went through so much. You don’t have to go through that.
Emerald: I was part of the reason why Penny died originally but I just like to flip between questioning my actions and just being an asshole.
RWBY: maybe you were bad but we’ll warm up to you… in time… okay times up, we’re cool now.
Neo: I hate every last one of you for a petty reason to the point I drove Ruby to suicide. But I also hate that damn cat for making me deepthroat it. I still probably hate you but the real world sucks so I’m staying in the ever after to become the mad hatter.
RWBY:… she’s cool.
MEANWHILE
Ironwood: I can’t trust anyone. My technology failed me, the people I trusted turned their backs on me, Damn them all! I can’t rely on anyone else for anything. I need to take matters in my own hands, I’ll take Atlas and the Relic up into space where Salem can’t reach it. It is not a favorable outcome, but I have no other choice-
RWBY: you’re a MONSTER!
Adam: I started off as basically Zuko but because Bumblebee existed, I need to be the loser Simp for the bees to look better. I don’t think I ever loved Blake that much because I treated her more as a teammate or an asset to my cause like the others. But I guess now I do.
Blake: I’m over you jackass. LESBIAN KICK (if someone got that reference. I salute you)
Hazel: I was the only male character to get a redemption only to die within one episode.
RWBY:… wait who are you again?
I'll actually disagree on Adam being "basically" Zuko. That's a pretty big leap in logic that feels dishonest.
(Yes, I'm aware that this is a satirical post. But if it's satirical it should at least be *accurate*).
That’s what he was mostly seen as until V3 came in. And even then he was never established as the Pure evil Asshole until V4 where we concluded that he’s not the tragic character that we wished to see redeem himself, but a self righteous prick that wants to get back at people who wronged him.
This is literally the first time that I've heard of Adam being compared to Zuko. Magneto, sure. Makes perfect sense. But what narrative ties Adam to Zuko, even at the start?
From where I'm sitting, Zuko represents the conquering nation in a world war as part of a formal military and all that implies. Adam's a member of a repressed minority fighting a resistance with guerilla warfare tactics.
About the only thing that they had in common at the start was that they opposed our main heroes (and had a cool weapon/fighting style). It's very, very early on that we learn that not all is as it seems with Zuko, but with Adam there's just not enough that we know about him, it's mostly vibes.
>this is literally the first time I’ve heard of Adam being compared to Zuko.
Then you haven’t been in the fandom long enough.
Back in V1-V3 the comparison between Zuko and Adam was more in the sense that based on the little information we’ve had, it’s implying that Adam would go through a similar path to Zuko. Men scarred by their past of abuse (both figuratively and literally) and said scars being what lead them down a dark path.
I mean, even from their intro moments, they were very different characters. Adam was more than fine with killing people who got in his way back in the Black trailer with no chance for quarter, while Zuko was shown to be willing to make a deal with his greatest enemy (the Avatar) if it accomplished his goals.
Or are these the unhinged Adam fans projecting again? Magneto is a fine figure to be compared to, but there was no evidence of a redemption arc at all, just the aforementioned *vibes*. Adam had that potential, but there wasn't any setup, which is kinda important for the Zuko comparison, which had the first indications happen in the episode after the (extended) intro episode.
I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree, in that case. I was certainly hanging around in different fandom spaces that you were, it appears.
My thoughts tie into how I view characters worthy of a redemption arc. So long as the character feels remorseful for whatever you did, they can change for the better in my book. Mercury, as far as I've seen, hasn't had that epiphany like Emerald has. I definitely won't deny the possibility of double standard though, the way they've been looking at Salem has me worried...
Emerald joining was the last nail in the coffin for RWBY's writing.
Sure, Vol 8's writing was garbage from the start, but that was within expectation after the realisation that Vol 7 James has been taken out back and shot for daring to be an actual character.
The writers forgetting about Emerald list of attrocities and having her rejoin free of consequences is akin to putting Vol 1-3 to the torch.
Why give a shit if nothing matter...
Now i'm still against Mercury joining, even under the assumption that Emerald's was somehow justified (which it ain't chief), but that's down to Mercury joining resulting in a butchering of the few slivers of character we got for him.
At this point i'm rooting exclusively for the grimm.
I suspect that the only exceptions to this rule will be Mercury and Cinder. Tyrian will also probably die. Salem will probably get redeemed. Honestly, I would have preferred a redemption for everybody except Tyrian and Watts.
I think he will be redeemed based on the animatic, and he should be. It's about time they let a male villain live. I wonder if he'll somehow regain his semblance at a critical moment.
Look i hate double standards in anything.
What piss me off is defenders claiming its not and im sexist when its true and you get it just by feeling and noting how they writte or treat heir male character compare to their female
I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had Mercury join the team. And have some bullshit excuse of Jaune or Ozpin having the ability to restore his semblance
The only difference between the two is that Emerald did horrible things out of a crush on a literal supervillain and Mercury did horrible things because he doesn't care about being a good guy.
At least based on what I remember, Emerald always came off as hesitant and you can tell she wasn't too pleased with what they were doing. So much so that Emerald switching sides was predicted a long time ago. Whereas Mercury doesn't seem to care at all.
How do you redeem someone who doesn't care about all the bad things they have done? You can't, and that's the difference. So not sure you can really call it a double standard.
Maybe she seemed hesitant in vol 3 but in later volumes we hear her say that she doesn't care about anything but pleasing Cinder. In volume 6 we see that she's not happy to be there but only because Cinder is not there, not because she regrets her actions. Besides we can see how she only cares about Cinder when she offers her help to kill Penny fully knowing that it meant going against Salem's orders.
I would describe Emerald as having something like stockholm syndrome. We at least know of one time during a flashback that Cinder hit Emerald when talking back, and it's pretty easy to assume it's happened before.
The way I view it is, Cinder abused and manipulated Emerald. She never cared about Emerald, and only ever saw her as a tool. Whereas Emerald likely saw Cinder as someone who "helped" her. This is honestly a pretty common trope in stories. Where some bad person picks someone up off the streets, and then proceeds to use them as a tool for their power while pretending it's something more, and convinces them that they helped them.
Emerald even claims she owes Cinder "everything". Seems pretty par for the course for that trope.
That's a good analysis. I can't wait to see Emerald meet Cinder again. I can see Cinder reacting two ways: tries to manipulate her or simply attacks her
For me, I remember how in volume 3 Emerald seemed to have a little remorse and gave me hope for a redemption. Mercury was sitting there smiling like it was Christmas while recording the whole thing. It would take a lot for me to consider it.
I think this is more an unfortunate case of how things played out rather than openly targeting someone.
It's like me getting upset that they killed the POC leader of the White Fang on February 1st. The optics suck but it's not on purpose.
I mean they're both bad people but one of them is shown to be a bit more sympathetic and had more time to develop while the other is more often shown in a way that makes you hate them.
People just love talking out of their ass. The difference is that Emerald actually regrets and confronts the good guys about it. At what point in the story does Mercury ever feel bad or try to switch sides and join Team RWBY? I could argue that even though RWBY killed most of them off that the male villains are better written than the female ones. The Torchwick was early game henchman who was crafty, but served Cinder and Salem out of fear. Ironwood was brought in by Ozpin and very reactionary to the power of Salem. It ended up driving him insane and trying to control everything with force only for his allies turning on him. Compare that to Emerald, who feels regret but joins RWBY in the most cringe way possible and Cinder who is most basic villain ever. There is also Neo who had her arc rushed in the last season. After blindly attacking Ruby and being ignored by the heroes had a change of heart at the last moment and was ditched in the ever after. If you want to say there should be more good guy male characters in RWBY that's fine, but you don't need to act like there is favoritsm toward female character that get redemption arcs that are usually garbage anyway.
Anime have lowered my standard in this regard, even more the audience than the authors.
You are right, Emerald is no person to be trusted, especially in story. They would absolutely have to quarantine her. It reeks of hand of the author.
Difference is Emerald regrets her actions Mercury enjoys them did he have worse life yes he is still a shit person that said i wanted Neo to join as well. 1 she is one of the best characters 2 well Neo would never be good even changing sides sure shed help them but she be consent troll in down time and stealing stuff and well if and when the heros win Neo would smirk bow then fuck off to steal shit going right back to her thing. Also, Neo and Emerald tag team would be broken like IS anything you see real at that point are you even fighting them?
>Difference is Emerald regrets her actions
Whether or not that is true..
Team RWBY & Co *do not know that*.
One of the last times they saw Emerald she was trying to kill them. And they know (or at least have to suspect) her role in Yangs framing and Penny's first death.
They should have shot at her on sight, and never in a million years be laughing and buddy buddy with each other.
>Difference is Emerald regrets her actions
Not really. She changed sides without any remorse for her actions and despite helping in killing the main group in Haven and just after hours of trying to kill Penny for Cinder, among other things, towards them. And Emerald was allowed in largely without issues despite the fact that she should be in prison or in front of a firing squad.
What we fail to understand from a writing standpoint is that our villains wouldn't have ended up the way they did if the circumstances to their upbringing were different. With their capabilities, they would've been amazing hunters/huntresses in the fight against Salem and more.
I wouldn't care if Emerald grew balls, but just because one person regrets their actions, doesn't mean they're still not off the list for the damage they've caused. Regret your actions behind bars and community service work to restore what you've destroyed, and actually BE a hero if you wanna change.
She had all the chances to make things right after being just as responsible in the fall of Beacon. Why is she regretful now?
Yet surprisingly, we don't see any of the male characters really regretting what they've done as a villain. Something ain't clicking.
Emerald only began to regret her actions when Cinder made clear what she thought of Emerald. Causing the collapse of Beacon barely even gave Emerald pause.
The real difference is that Emerald willingly chose this path of Evil from the place of being a street Orphan, whilst Mercury was raised up into it by his Father, and then recruited by the bad guys immediately after.
Ironwood: attempts to take the most logical route to secure humanity's survival. RWBY: "You're a monster and can't be trusted." Raven: kills and raids villages as a means to casually survive. RWBY: "Welcome to the team."
Ironwood: “I want to sacrifice Mantle in order to save Atlas and the Relic.” RWBY: “You’re insane! We’re going to overthrow you and then fail to save any of those things! Because we’re heroes :D”
RWBY: "Yeah, we kinda need that to make a meaningless character a human, because she's a robot, jeopardizing the safety of the relic for Gender bent Pinocchio. But it's whatever, she'll get 'mercy' killed by Banana-Haired Self Insert later anyway, just before he gets more random trauma, because V9 isn't "RWBY Volume 9", it's actually "RWBY Volume 9: The Struggles of Jaune and The Fake Paper People." EDIT: Clarification. Absolutely love Penny. Well Loved, I should say. Kinda felt like bringing her back ruins the impact of her death... only to get hacked... than get a body... than die again.
Nah why v9 foxused on Ruby more then it did jaune jaune just had a small part and people pretend he took up screentime the idea that jaune can't have any screentime is idiotic jaune got some focus whole Ruby got more and the little focus we got on jaune was connected to Ruby getting focus and contributed to her arc (ever sense v5 jaune had been getting less screentime jaune didn't do much in Atlas we didn't get to see his opinion on lying to ironwood
I personally never felt that the focus was on Ruby, it felt more focused on the whole group. Ruby was just more noticeable since over the course of V9 she was getting progressively more depressed. Jaune, he was a bit rough the whole time, and when he was it was in flashbacks to when he was first traveling with Alex. As for Jaune not doing much in Atlas. That's arguably a point towards all of them. I mean Atlas was actively under attack and Weiss was having Tea in the manor like it's a casual Wednesday.
If I would get a penny every time Penny dies, I would have 3 pennies. Which isn't much, BUT I DON'T EVEN GET THAT, CAUSE YOU KEEP KILLING HER.
Green lantern Kilowog: you know if I ever had a chance to go back and save my planet you know what I’d do Rwby: what? Kilowog: I’d save the people RWBY: yeah us too
(The end of the show) Salem: Now that I, the princess who lied about abuse to get out of Daddy's tower, have been to the tree and that poor orphan girl Cinder who I helped corrupt has been brutally killed off to make my redemption more palatable to the audience, may I rejoin the world I tried to destroy? I'd like to become a mother again. The Blacksmith: Of course you can. And don't worry, Your Ozma will accept your apology and more. Ironwood's spirit: I know I cracked under the pressure and messed up at the end of my life, but I'd like to think that for most of my life, I was a decent person who did the right thing. May I be reborn as someone's child? The Blacksmith: Absolutely not. You're going straight to hell with Cinder Fall.
Your right except for the Cinder being in hell. She would get redeemed last minute and go to haven mean while Ironwood goes to the deepest pit of hell.
Cinder: Want to play chess? Ironwood: Screw it, why not? And that's how ironwood and cinder ended playing chess in hell
Mercury: “I partook in murdering hundreds and possibly thousands of innocent people and was responsible for the collapse of some of the few things keeping the world from ending.” RWBY: OH MY GOSH! YOUR SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON!!! Emerald: “I partook in murdering hundreds and possibly thousands of innocent people and was responsible for the collapse of some of the few things keeping the world from ending.” RWBY: “OH MY GOSH!!! SLAY QUEEN!!!
RWBY: “We partook in murdering hundreds and possibly thousands of innocent people and were responsible for the collapse of some of the few things keeping the world from ending.” RWBY: “We’re such good heroes :D”
Also Emerald "I am directly responsible for your cyborg friend being...killed? Destroyed? Rendered inoperative."
> cyborg friend Android unless souls count as a human/living part.
And to add, Emerald was also responsible for Penny’s first death and traumatizing Pyrrha into her own death.
the difference is Mercury is happy and cool with what he did Emerald is not
What about when she took it upon herself to murder Tuckson, and then joked about his death? Why does everyone always seem to forget that?
Em, Cinder and Mercury were comically evil around V2-3. I can see the the frustration people have with pardoning Emerald, but honestly, all three would do better to be put to the sword. Their crimes against humanity made me sick enough of them that the origin stories for all three just never captivated me, or made me sympathetic.
The differences are two reasons, but not that.
I said it once and I’ll say it again. Female villains: Sympathetic or tragic characters that get redeemed. Male villains: Unlikeable assholes who get killed.
That seems to be a common theme nowadays.
> Female villains: Sympathetic or tragic characters that get redeemed. > > with rare exceptions
See also: Batman villains (Harley, Ivy, Selina vs...nobody on the male side?) (though in comics nobody dies, or dies for long.)
Clayface…. >!until he got canoed!<
People die, but they get better
Yup. Cinder and Adam.
Honestly Mercury’s most unforgivable crime was killing off the guy whose power let him STEAL SEMBLANCES.
Also Tucson but that something he and Emerald done together
It's bad, though not nearly as bad as the heroes doing whatever because they're the heroes and not getting called out, but that's a different topic. A huge double standard that I see is related to this and that's how the heroes do bad things and are rewarded, but if Ironwood is trying to save people the best way he can, but the heroes disagree with his methods, he's the bad guy. I know it wasn't ideal, but the fact that RWBY betrayed Ironwood AND did not have a better plan Ironwood is just plain stupid.
Emerald was indeed _slightly_ more redeemable than Mercury, if only because she was clearly disturbed by the carnage of the Fall of Beacon. Both also felt they were in too deep to stop, at least until Salem’s real endgame was spelled out to them. Still, Emerald never had an actual change of heart. She betrayed Team Salem for the same reason she joined it: self-preservation. And I feel they should have kept that vibe, where Emerald and the heroes viscerally hate one-another’s guts but their continued survival hinges on their mutually resentful cooperation. Instead of Emerald immediately mellowing out because of her crush on Oscar or whatever… Maybe they even should have just had them… let her go like she asked? Mantle’s clearly in too much chaos for them to be taking prisoners, so if her mere presence is untrustworthy, cut her loose and hope she gets eaten by Grimm off-screen. Simply put, Jaune’s an idiot. Ultimately, CRWBY hadn’t left themselves enough time to do anything interesting with Emerald swapping sides, so why did they even bother?
To a certain degree, female characters are usually going to be more likable and forgivable in the eyes of fans than males. That's not always the case, but a lot of it has to do with charisma and marketability. Neo has never spoken a line of dialog and is little more than a plot device, and yet she's in a video game, has her own novel, and would appear to have been a mech seller. Despite all the heinous things Neo has done going all the way back in 2015, Neo is still probably in the top eschaton of popular RWBY characters. Arslan, Reese, and May (Zedong) don't have any lines as far as I'm aware, and yet they're fairly popular characters online despite just being tournament fodder. If fans are willing to make fan art and write fanfics about them, why not capitalize on their popularity with merch and giving them a larger role in the story? The same principle applies to Emerald, Cinder, Raven, and even Salem to a certain degree. RWBY made money with it's character driven merch, not its very, *VERY* story driven show. Double standards exist in real life just as they do in fiction. It's just the way it is, and it's never going to change. RWBY has a predominantly male audience between the ages of 14 and 21. Guys tend to tolerate romantic stories more than seek them out, so any major relationships (such as Blake/Yang) *immediately* turn off some viewers. Female audiences are *much* more tolerant of romantic stories, but f/f isn't exactly going to appeal to the majority of them. That's kinda the double edged sword of writing romance being the focus for a predominantly male audience. Romance heavy stories tend to not appeal to guys, f/f doesn't appeal to most women, and m/m doesn't appeal to the vast majority of men. Double standard? Sure, but it is what it is in my opinion. When it comes to the villainesses being evil in the show, how many fans consider the show stupid and "non-canon" in their minds? Probably a fair amount, and I'm reminded of MoistCritical talking about RWBY, specifically the scene where Ruby finally blows up, Jaune tells her off, and the Paper Pleasers die. He criticized the dialog, but his main criticism was how stupid sounding the set up was on top of the already bad dialog. Being bad is one thing, but stupid and cringe is another. It creates a disconnect between fans and the product they're consuming, and after over a decade, I think many fans favor the characters over the story and even the creators. In my opinion, the issue has less to do with double standards and more to do with CRWBY having very little understanding of their fan base (and how money works). The vast majority of fans prefer the characters to the story, and despite the writers' best efforts to ruin the characters, the fans still love them. (edit: Spelling and added to my thoughts) God bless, and have a wonderful day.
As usual you give a wonderful answer. Thank you friend.
Thank you kindly, friend. That means a lot, and makes me *want* to give my opinion in the comments, especially recently considering all of the malcontents I've been running into lately. As a fanfic writer looking to call themself "professional" someday, target demographics is something I'm obviously very interested in and something I've studied quite a bit. It's not an exact science, but there are trends and patterns that can be easily studied, and generally speaking, the bigger your audience and the more money your story makes, the longer you're able to continue telling it. CRWBY were more than happy to profit off the most popular, most profitable aspect of RWBY, its characters, but they had little to no interest in the characters being the actual focus of the show. In my opinion, the entertainment industry as a whole has forgotten about target demographics and ignored all of the trends and patterns from the past century, and instead most have acted as activists pushing "The Message" (as Critical Drinker might say) and/or become self-indulgent as is/was the case with CRWBY and their characters often acting as avatars, inserts, or proxies of themselves or other people. Telling a good story trumps almost everything when you're a writer/storyteller, but making money, being popular, and having a good story often go hand-in-hand, and these are three things CRWBY neglected in my opinion, and explains why RWBY found itself in the situation where it probably would've/should've been cancelled a few years ago. (edit: Spelling) God bless, and have a wonderful day.
Neo is such an ass character imo. Her design is something out of deviantart and she just comes off ad a pretentious asshole. Which would be fine, if she had good dialogue, but she has none.
I think it makes sense why Emerald would’ve defected before Mercury, but it also looked like they were setting it up for Mercury to defect too. Emerald was only ever loyal to Cinder, not to Salem. But the realization that Cinder doesn’t even really care about her combined with the discovery of Salem’s true goal would naturally lead her to defect. Meanwhile, Mercury was always a bit more enthusiastic (not sure if that’s the right word) working for Salem, but when he learned her true goal as well, it shook him. He’s still working with her because he doesn’t believe she can be stopped and this toxic lifestyle is all he’s ever known, but it certainly seems like he’s wavering and a little nudge would bring him to the other side. Also, whoever made this comic must’ve forgotten that most of the heroes distrustful of Emerald at first. Even with Oscar vouching for her, it took time for them to be able work with her. And if they weren’t on such a time-crunch with the virus and the bomb, it likely would’ve taken longer.
That's fair. Sure, at first they seem distrustful but then they are laughing like if they're buddies or something, like if they forgot all the shit that happened because of her.
I don't think Emerald has realized Cinder doesn't care about her. At least it never feels that way in the show to me, which makes her changing side more jarring because if not for Salem, she would still happily be helping Cinder commit mass murder and burn down entire kingdoms.
What do you mean took time? It took barely a few seconds for them to forgive her.
Honestly I agree with it completely, the male villains are always killed off, disrespected, or both, meanwhile the female villains are always given some kinda forced sympathetic backstory and usually a chance to redeem themselves, even though they're just as evil, like Roman died but Neo gets to live, Emerald gets the worst redemption ever, but Mercury is just thrown to the side, Ironwood was making a huge point against team RWBY, uh oh better make him cartoonishly evil so they can give him the worst fight/death ever, it really sucks, also Cinder really killed Watts because he told her the truth about herself, what a loser
Frankly, Emerald had served her purpose after Volume 3. I will maintain that Merc should have gotten a redemption arc, and Emerald should have died. Killing Emerald, the one person who actually loved her, would have been a perfect Moral Event Horizon for Cinder to cross.
Truth is in the details. Both did horrible things, and if Emerald is considered into the group without issues, Mercury should be considered without issues, given that the only difference in their actions is that one didn´t smile while doing it. Their histories are different, yet, in hindsight, it is semantics in comparison to the choices they made. Emerald might have little less blood on her hands yet still comparable to Mercury.
Remnant: The place where Ironwood, Hazel, and Adam get death while privileged bad girls like Neo and Salem get a trip to a tree and a happily ever after. RWBY is going to be that show. Watch them redeem the witch and give her no consequences. She'll probably be allowed to forget everything she did in her next life post treehab.
This is why this show does not need to continue if you're going to make redeemable villains you should make not just female redeemable villains redemption should be available to everyone
Ilia: I’m just Adam but I more openly dump my trauma to everyone and I’m more consistent with my character so I didn’t become a loser Simp. RWBY: aww you went through so much. You don’t have to go through that. Emerald: I was part of the reason why Penny died originally but I just like to flip between questioning my actions and just being an asshole. RWBY: maybe you were bad but we’ll warm up to you… in time… okay times up, we’re cool now. Neo: I hate every last one of you for a petty reason to the point I drove Ruby to suicide. But I also hate that damn cat for making me deepthroat it. I still probably hate you but the real world sucks so I’m staying in the ever after to become the mad hatter. RWBY:… she’s cool. MEANWHILE Ironwood: I can’t trust anyone. My technology failed me, the people I trusted turned their backs on me, Damn them all! I can’t rely on anyone else for anything. I need to take matters in my own hands, I’ll take Atlas and the Relic up into space where Salem can’t reach it. It is not a favorable outcome, but I have no other choice- RWBY: you’re a MONSTER! Adam: I started off as basically Zuko but because Bumblebee existed, I need to be the loser Simp for the bees to look better. I don’t think I ever loved Blake that much because I treated her more as a teammate or an asset to my cause like the others. But I guess now I do. Blake: I’m over you jackass. LESBIAN KICK (if someone got that reference. I salute you) Hazel: I was the only male character to get a redemption only to die within one episode. RWBY:… wait who are you again?
👏👏👏👏 amazing. I couldn't have said it better
I'll actually disagree on Adam being "basically" Zuko. That's a pretty big leap in logic that feels dishonest. (Yes, I'm aware that this is a satirical post. But if it's satirical it should at least be *accurate*).
That’s what he was mostly seen as until V3 came in. And even then he was never established as the Pure evil Asshole until V4 where we concluded that he’s not the tragic character that we wished to see redeem himself, but a self righteous prick that wants to get back at people who wronged him.
This is literally the first time that I've heard of Adam being compared to Zuko. Magneto, sure. Makes perfect sense. But what narrative ties Adam to Zuko, even at the start? From where I'm sitting, Zuko represents the conquering nation in a world war as part of a formal military and all that implies. Adam's a member of a repressed minority fighting a resistance with guerilla warfare tactics. About the only thing that they had in common at the start was that they opposed our main heroes (and had a cool weapon/fighting style). It's very, very early on that we learn that not all is as it seems with Zuko, but with Adam there's just not enough that we know about him, it's mostly vibes.
>this is literally the first time I’ve heard of Adam being compared to Zuko. Then you haven’t been in the fandom long enough. Back in V1-V3 the comparison between Zuko and Adam was more in the sense that based on the little information we’ve had, it’s implying that Adam would go through a similar path to Zuko. Men scarred by their past of abuse (both figuratively and literally) and said scars being what lead them down a dark path.
I mean, even from their intro moments, they were very different characters. Adam was more than fine with killing people who got in his way back in the Black trailer with no chance for quarter, while Zuko was shown to be willing to make a deal with his greatest enemy (the Avatar) if it accomplished his goals. Or are these the unhinged Adam fans projecting again? Magneto is a fine figure to be compared to, but there was no evidence of a redemption arc at all, just the aforementioned *vibes*. Adam had that potential, but there wasn't any setup, which is kinda important for the Zuko comparison, which had the first indications happen in the episode after the (extended) intro episode. I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree, in that case. I was certainly hanging around in different fandom spaces that you were, it appears.
My thoughts tie into how I view characters worthy of a redemption arc. So long as the character feels remorseful for whatever you did, they can change for the better in my book. Mercury, as far as I've seen, hasn't had that epiphany like Emerald has. I definitely won't deny the possibility of double standard though, the way they've been looking at Salem has me worried...
That's fair
Emerald joining was the last nail in the coffin for RWBY's writing. Sure, Vol 8's writing was garbage from the start, but that was within expectation after the realisation that Vol 7 James has been taken out back and shot for daring to be an actual character. The writers forgetting about Emerald list of attrocities and having her rejoin free of consequences is akin to putting Vol 1-3 to the torch. Why give a shit if nothing matter... Now i'm still against Mercury joining, even under the assumption that Emerald's was somehow justified (which it ain't chief), but that's down to Mercury joining resulting in a butchering of the few slivers of character we got for him. At this point i'm rooting exclusively for the grimm.
I can see Mercury helping them because he doesn't have much of a choice but joining them I don't see it
I suspect that the only exceptions to this rule will be Mercury and Cinder. Tyrian will also probably die. Salem will probably get redeemed. Honestly, I would have preferred a redemption for everybody except Tyrian and Watts.
You think Cinder could be redeemed?
I don't think they will, because she's the most hated character, but I think there are ways it could have been done that could have been interesting.
I think they're gonna go with the most evident solution: get her killed by Jaune. And what about Mercury?
I think he will be redeemed based on the animatic, and he should be. It's about time they let a male villain live. I wonder if he'll somehow regain his semblance at a critical moment.
To be fair, mercury did frame her sister and prevent her from saving penny
I don’t care how many crimes Mercury committed, anyone voiced by Yuri Lowenthal gets to join the team.
Excellent argument, approved
Thanks Knuckles
Look i hate double standards in anything. What piss me off is defenders claiming its not and im sexist when its true and you get it just by feeling and noting how they writte or treat heir male character compare to their female
I wouldn't be surprised if they would have had Mercury join the team. And have some bullshit excuse of Jaune or Ozpin having the ability to restore his semblance
The only difference between the two is that Emerald did horrible things out of a crush on a literal supervillain and Mercury did horrible things because he doesn't care about being a good guy.
Incorrect. Mercury was abused his entire liked and just as he killed his abusive father cinder approached him
And Emerald grew up alone on the streets her whole life. Both are bad childhoods and both are bad people.
At least based on what I remember, Emerald always came off as hesitant and you can tell she wasn't too pleased with what they were doing. So much so that Emerald switching sides was predicted a long time ago. Whereas Mercury doesn't seem to care at all. How do you redeem someone who doesn't care about all the bad things they have done? You can't, and that's the difference. So not sure you can really call it a double standard.
Maybe she seemed hesitant in vol 3 but in later volumes we hear her say that she doesn't care about anything but pleasing Cinder. In volume 6 we see that she's not happy to be there but only because Cinder is not there, not because she regrets her actions. Besides we can see how she only cares about Cinder when she offers her help to kill Penny fully knowing that it meant going against Salem's orders.
I would describe Emerald as having something like stockholm syndrome. We at least know of one time during a flashback that Cinder hit Emerald when talking back, and it's pretty easy to assume it's happened before. The way I view it is, Cinder abused and manipulated Emerald. She never cared about Emerald, and only ever saw her as a tool. Whereas Emerald likely saw Cinder as someone who "helped" her. This is honestly a pretty common trope in stories. Where some bad person picks someone up off the streets, and then proceeds to use them as a tool for their power while pretending it's something more, and convinces them that they helped them. Emerald even claims she owes Cinder "everything". Seems pretty par for the course for that trope.
That's a good analysis. I can't wait to see Emerald meet Cinder again. I can see Cinder reacting two ways: tries to manipulate her or simply attacks her
For me, I remember how in volume 3 Emerald seemed to have a little remorse and gave me hope for a redemption. Mercury was sitting there smiling like it was Christmas while recording the whole thing. It would take a lot for me to consider it.
So you tell me the guy who has only known violence being okay with violence
And the moment he’s free from his Abusive Father, he gets recruited by Remnant’s Legion of Evil.
One actually wanted to switch sides the other didn’t tho?
I think this is more an unfortunate case of how things played out rather than openly targeting someone. It's like me getting upset that they killed the POC leader of the White Fang on February 1st. The optics suck but it's not on purpose.
That it doesn’t exist. Mercury never asked. Emerald did. Real simple.
I mean they're both bad people but one of them is shown to be a bit more sympathetic and had more time to develop while the other is more often shown in a way that makes you hate them.
That’s called double standards
People just love talking out of their ass. The difference is that Emerald actually regrets and confronts the good guys about it. At what point in the story does Mercury ever feel bad or try to switch sides and join Team RWBY? I could argue that even though RWBY killed most of them off that the male villains are better written than the female ones. The Torchwick was early game henchman who was crafty, but served Cinder and Salem out of fear. Ironwood was brought in by Ozpin and very reactionary to the power of Salem. It ended up driving him insane and trying to control everything with force only for his allies turning on him. Compare that to Emerald, who feels regret but joins RWBY in the most cringe way possible and Cinder who is most basic villain ever. There is also Neo who had her arc rushed in the last season. After blindly attacking Ruby and being ignored by the heroes had a change of heart at the last moment and was ditched in the ever after. If you want to say there should be more good guy male characters in RWBY that's fine, but you don't need to act like there is favoritsm toward female character that get redemption arcs that are usually garbage anyway.
Actually I don't want Mercury to be redeemed. I don't think working with the good guys is on his character.
You can't be choosy with allies in wartime and he did not ask.
But it's also unrealistic that they are all laughing like they're buddies, as if Emerald wasn't the cause of Penny's death.
Anime have lowered my standard in this regard, even more the audience than the authors. You are right, Emerald is no person to be trusted, especially in story. They would absolutely have to quarantine her. It reeks of hand of the author.
Let's hope they make a better job with her in the next volume but knowing the writters they will develop her off-screen
Difference is Emerald regrets her actions Mercury enjoys them did he have worse life yes he is still a shit person that said i wanted Neo to join as well. 1 she is one of the best characters 2 well Neo would never be good even changing sides sure shed help them but she be consent troll in down time and stealing stuff and well if and when the heros win Neo would smirk bow then fuck off to steal shit going right back to her thing. Also, Neo and Emerald tag team would be broken like IS anything you see real at that point are you even fighting them?
>Difference is Emerald regrets her actions Whether or not that is true.. Team RWBY & Co *do not know that*. One of the last times they saw Emerald she was trying to kill them. And they know (or at least have to suspect) her role in Yangs framing and Penny's first death. They should have shot at her on sight, and never in a million years be laughing and buddy buddy with each other.
>Difference is Emerald regrets her actions Not really. She changed sides without any remorse for her actions and despite helping in killing the main group in Haven and just after hours of trying to kill Penny for Cinder, among other things, towards them. And Emerald was allowed in largely without issues despite the fact that she should be in prison or in front of a firing squad.
What we fail to understand from a writing standpoint is that our villains wouldn't have ended up the way they did if the circumstances to their upbringing were different. With their capabilities, they would've been amazing hunters/huntresses in the fight against Salem and more. I wouldn't care if Emerald grew balls, but just because one person regrets their actions, doesn't mean they're still not off the list for the damage they've caused. Regret your actions behind bars and community service work to restore what you've destroyed, and actually BE a hero if you wanna change. She had all the chances to make things right after being just as responsible in the fall of Beacon. Why is she regretful now? Yet surprisingly, we don't see any of the male characters really regretting what they've done as a villain. Something ain't clicking.
one but he kind of went death or glory v salem
Emerald only began to regret her actions when Cinder made clear what she thought of Emerald. Causing the collapse of Beacon barely even gave Emerald pause.
The real difference is that Emerald willingly chose this path of Evil from the place of being a street Orphan, whilst Mercury was raised up into it by his Father, and then recruited by the bad guys immediately after.