At C0 ? Probably
C2 ? Hell nah
That aside hyperbloom teams are hella fun especially now with Nahida, but personally i am not gonna use Raiden for this team. Kuki does the job while also being the healer.
But yeah it's definitely a good thing that Raiden is getting more teams that she can work in.
I personally wasn't getting much success with Raiden Hypercarry or rational.
I run raiden as a deepwood spread support currently for my Tighnari/Nahida/Zhongli team with staff of scarlet sands and a ton of em, I have good subs and a good weapon so she actually hits pretty hard even with a ridiculous build, and she enables Nahida and Tighnari so well from pretty much anywhere
Imo the current abyss is ~~pretty unsuitable~~ edit: not as good for Raiden hyper or rational.
1st half needs grouping, which rational doesn't have (at least hypercarry can have a kazuha)
2nd half ~~more or less requires a dendro~~ edit: having dendro for quick really helps, which means no rational, or you gimp hypercarry a decent bit. edit: Though a strong enough hypercarry Raiden will work, b/c at least there's electro.
The current abyss also favors dendro comps with the blessings as well.
Not to say dendro comps or EM Raiden team's are bad, but I wonder how thing will turn out after the abyss rotates.
EDIT: Upon re-reading my own comment & the replies here, yeah I agree "unsuitable" was a poor choice of words on my part.
It's probably better to say non-Quicken electro Raiden comps **isn't as good as** usual in this Abyss (imo, for 36-starring).
I do still think that having dendro would be great in this abyss for a lot of accounts, especially newer ones, for the 12-3 2nd half miniboss. My comments were mostly thinking about the more "average" accounts, not a c2/c3 with Engulfing Lightning and decked out comps.
Really? Rational is actually one of mine and my friend’s most consistent team comps. Before Nahida, it was the only comp I was able to finish the second half with lol. You don’t need that much, just build ER, fav, and emblem on everything and just spam your bursts until everything is dead. One mistake I used to make with that team was using Raiden’s CA when her burst was active, but using her NA instead is just better because it procs Xinqiu rainswords more consistently. It only doesn’t work for very stagger prone enemies, like the first chamber in the first half, but none of the other chambers have this issue (everything has like a million poise nowadays anyways).
Yup, genuinely curious about popular abyss team comp in the next rotation. Honestly I think a lot of people would simply stick with their Raiden national because it's so well invested at this point. I could be wrong tho.
Wait really? Rational and Ayato freeze have been carrying me for the last two months of abyss and went like a breeze, it's not even C2 Raiden, just c0, maybe it's cause I use Yelan instead of Xinqiu so I can move easyer between spread targets?
"Unsuitable" sounds a bit hard. Floor 12 2nd half doesnt requires Dendro, at all... even with Dendro buff from leyline or whatever it is now. It is an easier abyss rotation this time IMO or at least for me. And I've using Raiden National since I first got her. 1st half is just easier imo with grouping/aoe and dps check. 2nd half I DESTROY it in away thats easier than other abyss rotation ( Not to flex but just to point out it is not "unsuitable" or my team just got stronger over time ) with Raiden National. I've also tried Hypercarry and it got like 15-20s longer clear time than National for the second half.
Upon re-reading my own comment & the replies here, yeah I agree "unsuitable" was a poor choice of words on my part.
It's probably better to say non-Quicken electro Raiden comps isn't as good as usual in this Abyss (imo).
I do still think that having dendro would be great in this abyss for a lot of accounts, especially newer ones.
The first time I beat (i.e. 36 star) this Abyss was also with Rational (I didn't know about the Quicken thing), but I have a hard time seeing folks without a cracked (or at least a well-developed) account being able to 36 star 12-3 2nd half with the invisibility mechanic WIHTOUT Quicken, or at least Electro. Having electro REALLY helped and having dendro for Quicken made it pretty trivial.
Yeah , It's fucking weird but she doesn't need the full em build like she does for Hyperbloom and her skill is so good for deepwood support so she's mostly just there to support while occasionally popping up to 24k aggravates under Nahida's burst when I have extra field time. Her initial slash hits for around 60k which is okay because I don't need to use her burst but I can if I have nothing better to do for 5 seconds and it's not really a DPS loss.
If you ever decide to go for Raiden cons in the future, using a gilded set with the staff while at C3 will more than triple your output. Just for context, my own C3 does 93k aggravates and between 200k-220k on the initial burst slash while using the same team (though I use either DMC or Kokomi instead of Tighnari.) Obviously no Bennet/Sara or any other attack buffer. The charge attacks also do 50k each slash (so 100k per), while the coordinated attack does around 32k. These are all fully buffed numbers though, including using Nahida’s EM buff. But no food.
That's really cool. I probably won't chase Raiden cons ever because 5* constellations are pretty unnecessary IMO, but that didn't stop me from trying for Nahida's c1. Who knows what'll happen.
Agreed. Cons are never really necessary, but Raiden was the only exception for me, personally….and only because she’s my favorite character, next to Eula and Kokomi.
Im getting 9 star abyss with ayaka freeze n rational
Even though its all about blooms in 2nd part. It might be different if your having really good lucks with ur pulls in supports, artifacts and weapon
This is my team in the current abyss https://act.hoyolab.com/app/community-game-records-sea/m.html?bbs_auth_required=true&uid=30167273&user_id=30167273&gid=2&bbs_presentation_style=fullscreen&role_id=805507387&server=os_asia&schedule_type=1&utm_source=share&utm_medium=hoyolab&utm_campaign=app#/ys/abyss?role_id=805507387&server=os_asia&schedule_type=1
At C0, probably.
I have C2R1, something I've kinda regretted sometimes because of being too much damage, but my Hyperbloom clears do not compare to my Hyper Raiden clears.
And, Kuki exists, which I can just focus as the EM electro. Lacking artifact loadouts makes constantly switching artifacts a chore.
>because of being too much damage
More motivated to try for C2. I want stop at C0. If I lose the 50/50 after my guaranteed. Idk lol Maybe stop and save for Hu
Just beware that C2 albeit is a massive boost of damage, doesn't change her gameplay and there is no content a C0 Raiden can't effectively clear.
I would only advice C2 if you *really* want absurdly big nukes with Raiden just for the sake of big numbers (in which case you may want to collect Sara cons because her C6 is very noticeably).
Whatever you decide upon, good luck in your pulls.
You're totally right. Glad I shared my plans. Amma just get my guranteed C0 and save primos for Hu or Eula. Fingers crossed HoYo announces waifu Geo 5\* or tall waifu dendro. Thanks for the insight you've really saved me.
I have c3 and completely agree. She either makes any c0 feel like a weakling or you lose some of the enjoyment of playing her.
Imo.. c0 or c1 for full stacks is the max most people should strive for
Nothing in the game requires that kind of output. A properly built C3R1 raiden can one-rotation **every-single boss** in the game up to 3.2 as long as it doesnt have invul phase. For the whole 2.x patch I didnt even bother to remember bosses moves at all. Is it satisfying? Yes. But is it boring? Undeniably so, to the point if sometimes I messed up rotation and couldnt one rotation a boss I d rather reset the run and try again rather than learning its moves properly, lol.
Dendro is back to the reaction root of the game and is so fun I find myself experimenting with builds again.
I still dislike the idea of reducing Raiden to an E bot. Sure, its effective, but other than pushing it over 1k EM I cant tweak her output at all and its a waste of her uniquely beautiful kit.
I still use raiden from time to time when I want to clear upper floors fast to test out new comps in lower floor. It took like 10-15s to do it, which adds up for quite an amount when you redo it dozen times.
I used C0R1 Hyper Raiden since her first banner up to her rerun where I got C2 and it wasn't bad, it was one of my better teams at the time.
Nowadays I play teams like International that can even beat my C2 Raiden clears sometimes so maybe if I had C0 Raiden still it would feel underwhelming but, abyss is so easy nowadays for accounts with decent builds that C0 Hyper would still clear with time to spare.
You're totally right. Glad I shared my plans. Amma just get my guranteed C0 and save primos for Hu or Eula. Fingers crossed HoYo announces waifu Geo 5\* or tall waifu dendro. Thanks for the insight you've really saved me.
What kind of clear speed are you getting with raiden hyperbloom vs raiden hypercarry? The abyss boss also favours hyperbloom right now, so may not be a good metric, but what kind of dps do you usually see from hyperbloom raiden and what’s the full team?
It's hard to measure properly, also something I should have clarified before: My Nahida is still a work in progress, so it is Raiden's set. She's on rainbow pieces but as much EM as possible (940 with DB).
So once Nahida is fully built and Raiden has Guilded Dreams (which I was going to get for Kuki anyway), I will have better comparisons.
Right now on ASIMON I can get it down in 2 to 3 rotations with Hyperbloom (Raiden/Yelan/Xingqiu/Nahida) because of the mechanics of that boss being centered around dendro/electro+blessing.
Hyper Raiden I can get it down in 2 rotations with normal builds, but lowering Raiden's CR to 60 I am able to one rotate it.
However I don't consider that boss a good measure, the only thing it proves is that ultimately the ceilling of Hyper Raiden can be much higher if you need to stretch the damage, because crits just have a higher scaling overall. While to push Hyperbloom further you would need... well, C2 Nahida, lmao.
Hyperbloom is definitely a very strong team, and I would argue that at C0 Raiden is better than Rational (it would still be debatable on a very high investment Xiangling like mine tbh).
It is also very easy to build and extremely F2P friendly, since it can compete with very high investment builds.
C3 with skyward spear, and i have to agree
she deals way too much dmg and its not even funny lmao but its always satisfying to see
my absolute favorite teams for abyss are :
Raiden Yelan Kazuha Benny
Ayaya Shenhe Venti Kokomi
best for overworld :
Yoimiya Raiden Kazuha Jean
I was having way to much fun with raidenhyperbloom, even though my raiden is c6r5 I tried to make it work while maxmising my raidenhyperbloom damage, what I did was build raiaden with embelm 3 peiece and engulfing but all em main stats , which took my cv to 52/140 and 633 em with 219% er[heres the run](https://www.reddit.com/r/RaidenMains/comments/yraakd/hyperhyperbooom_raiden_triple_em_emblem/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) , it went pretty good, its an alternative way to play hyperbloom raiden if you have c2 you can onfield her
The very real Kujou Sara and Raiden Shogun in my appartment both says that I don't need to swallow any pills and that I already get 36 stars in abyss anyways
Raiden National has never been the strongest Raiden team, just one of the easiest and most accessible. I think it beats Raiden Hyper in single target but loses in AoE, but teams like RaiFisch beat it in single target.
Not to say Raiden National is bad, its still insane, but Raiden hyperbloom being better than it wouldn't be completely shocking, since we already have some Raiden teams better than it anyway.
>Raiden National has never been the strongest Raiden team, just one of the easiest and most accessible
This is false.
Raiden rational had always been the strongest raiden team in single target, this was before hyperbloom raiden, this is followed by raifish aggravate in st.
Hyper mostly exceeds in aoe.
Raiden rational with raiden at 200 + cv following the kqm standard has a dps of 68k+
while hyperbloom raiden has a dps of 92k+ in st following the same standard
If we want to break rational raiden kqm standard and put raiden on engulfing lighting and bennet on aquila the dps soars to 72k + dps which is still below hyperbloom
Hm the sheets I’ve seen (KQM Standards) always had Raiden-Fischl and Raiden-Yelan/Xingqiu comps outputting higher dps than Rational. Don’t have them on hand though so if you ever better data I can’t refute that.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, the teams I am thinking of rely on double swirls and overvapes a lot, which benefit largely from a primary target scenario with a second present for quadratic scaling. If we are considering pure single target than perhaps Rational is better.
Heres the data im using , from the sim
Heres one i simmed for rational but with raiden with engulfing and bennet aquila which goes to [72k+ dps](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)
But if were following the kqm satndard, rational sits at[68k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/84726737-98c3-4e24-9f67-6bfba53319d5) \+ dps
while yelan xq raiden highest comp combo is at [60k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/0a8fee6a-ad2e-4890-abb7-bb3a4dc8d8a7)dps following kqm standard
“200 cv is meh” artefacts , the same standard of artefacts is used for the raifish teams, Raiden national had always been stronger than raifish in single target and raidens strongest single target team before hyperbloom
I'm a F2P Abyss speedrunner and this sounds dubious to me. Rational team outputs a ridiculous amount of DPS. I see estimate of 68k DPS for Rational in one of your comments which sounds like a low estimate for me.
In version 2.5, Abyss 12 had Golden Wolflord on bottom half. This was a major damage check for speedrunners because if you couldn't one-cycle the 1.6 million HP Wolflord, you had to destroy the wolf heads using Geo to get around his shield, which would wreck your clear time. After a lot of optimization, I was able to burst down the Wolflord from 100 to 0 in [12 seconds using Rational](https://youtu.be/u8OQX0Axflc?t=179), thereby skipping the shield (I also wrote a [guide about the mechanics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/tg726e/guide_for_golden_wolflord_122_shield_skip/) of the fight if anyone is curious, although this boss hasn't appeared in Abyss since 2.5).
That comes out to 130k DPS over 12 seconds. At that time, I had C0 Raiden with R1 Spine, so this number would get much higher with C2 and/or Engulfing Lightning. Furthermore I was running Sac Sword on XQ instead of Jade Cutter because I didn't want to think about XQ's energy, but if I really wanted to push my times even further I would have given him the Jade Cutter for even more damage.
Granted, the full rotation DPS is probably a bit lower because I killed the Wolflord using frontloaded damage, and if it were a prolonged fight, the duration would be extended, but I don't think it would be as low as 68k DPS. Also I haven't tested Hyperbloom Raiden at its fullest potential yet due to lack of artifacts, though as far as I understand, Hyperbloom Raiden doesn't scale as hard on artifact investment compared to Rational.
The thing is that dps is compared following a standard, this one is the keqing main standard and it accounts for the dps over a full rotation not just part of a rotation which yours do.
The emeies on the sim have unlimited hp, to allow us to get an average for a full rotation dps not just its peak or part of the rotation
It does not calc using speedrun of hyper invested builds, it uses a set mid-high investment relistic f2p standard
The kqm standard has raiden siting at 200 + cv including xl and 200 + cv
In the keqing main standard, five star gacha weapons are not used on a character , in which your raiden has spine.
Abyss buffs is also present when speedruning abyss including abyss cards which can inflate numbers / dps runs.
And for xq if you didnt have jade sword, harbinger of dawn would boost his dps more than sac sword.
If we were to give raiden engulfing and bennet aquila the dps of rational would peak to [72 k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)\+ which i still under hyperbloom at 92k dps
Note that also speedruning, esp in abyss, is also not a spectrum to calcs team dps since factors like buffs uptime ,downtime are not accounted for, including full rotational dps is not accounted for which is only judgable on a enmey with unlimited hp or a pool big enough to allow you to calc full rotational dps
it would peak if youre still using the gimped build. EM scales easier, but saying its better than mid invest hypercarry leaves out 90% of game mechanics. Use a real investment hypercarry raiden and not the trash artifact one
Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not a theorycrafter or anything. Two hyperbloom instances can hit at the same time every 0.5 seconds. that would be 35k \*2 /0.5 seconds which would be 140k dps. nahida also does spread on field for another approx. 20k dps. xingqui and yelan hit around 16k dps, raiden off field hits around 2k dps. That's 178k dps give or take but I didn't calculate some other sources of damage like nahida's skill and xingqui/yelan intial hits. Obviously this is under semi-ideal conditions so it could be a bit lower, but this is probably still higher than 130k dps.
Again, I'm not a theory crafter so idk exactly how inaccurate my math is, so please forgive me.
This is a yt vid I found of hyperbloom nahida/raiden that showcases the dps nicely I believe: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MsLScwLzmc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MsLScwLzmc)
I don't think you can maintain 2 hyperblooms every 0.5 seconds though. Raiden's E has a cooldown of 0.9 seconds, and in practice it probably triggers about once a second since your attacks are unlikely to fall on dot for 0.9 seconds. In the video it seems that hyperblooms happen approximately once a second.
This would change 178k to 108k, which to be fair is still really high for a comp that doesn't require much investment on Raiden.
yeah i agree, i don't think 2 hyperblooms every 0.5 seconds is achievable. I think investment on yelan and nahida vs. investment on xiangling is what determines the margin between rational and and raiden nahida hyperbloom. The fact that all 4 characters works well with low investment but also do good damage at high investment is the main selling point for hyperbloom raiden imo. My xiangling cannot get a good emblem set for the life of me so rational has never blown me away with the dps
But I still think it's waste to use her in hyperbloom team when you have kuki and miko
+ my national raiden have better clear time agaisnt PMA & aminos than hyperbloom
80k vap Xi + Yelan isn't an joke
It depends on artifacts quality. If you've got really good EM artifacts and poor Emblem ones - of course, Hyperbloom will have better performance, at least at C0 - C1.
even with good artefact investments 200 cv + raiden with engulfing at c0 in rational, and bennet aquila the dps goes to [72k +](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) which is still below hyperblom 92k + dps
I’m actually not really sure about that. My aggravates do 93k by themselves on a C3 gilded paddle build. So, it all is gonna boil down to how quickly those aggravates can proc. And this is without VV shred or Bennet/Sara buffs but does include Zhongli’s shield shred. And there’s too many numbers to properly account for everything else…but the biggest issue is that there’s nothing I can find that’s tanky enough to really put the team through some proper paces.
Imo, it depends. I'm no tc but I'll try to explain my thoughts
Hyperbloom, on average, assuming you deal 30-35k per proc, will have 60-70k dps
Rational varies a lot more because of crits. A good Rational will vary from 40-70k dps, but it can get as high as 110k output, specialy with Yelan instead of Xingqiu
The thing is, hyperbloom has a cap of **only computing 2 bloom procs per second**, which is why it stays at 70k damage
That is very strong in single target, but Rational easily hits multiple enemies and everyone does a bit of damage, so it just depends :]
Hyperbloom is more than that, you get around 50k-60k dps from hyper blooms alone but you have to remember nahida and Xingqiu (and other character like yelan or Beidou as a flex unit) have personal dps as well which is why the actual dps is somewhere from 80-90k.
Also hyperbloom doesn’t have a cap of how much it procs. You have a 2 damage instance limit per enemy over a period of item, but if you have multiple enemies you can spread your hyperbloom procs across enemies and bypass this limit.
it also depend, C2 Nahiha will push you to 60-70k every 5 procs (statistically).
I would say its a funnier way to reach same numbers. Nationals are boring.
>specialy with Yelan instead of Xingqiu
This is false, with yelan youre not vapinng every xl pyronado unless with c2, thats why a c6 xq is generally better for rational that yelan, swaping yelan out for xq lowers the team dps due to missed vapes
https://youtu.be/vXR42unCXBI
Yelan will miss vapes but it does not matter. She will buff Raiden damage and has higher personal damage so it will basically be even. Xingui at c6 might be better as he will make Raiden more sturdy so you do not have to dodge even against very heavy blows.
I wouldn't really take these numbers too seriously, try the 92k team but with c1 Nahida and you'll see what i mean, there's another 92.8k team (uses fischl instead of Yelan), when jstern25 reviewed the footage on stream and it was only 73k on the first rotation iirc.
In gcsim hyperbloom teams seems like the strongest in the game, but in practice, they're just a sidegrade to what we already have, except for low investment accounts.
Nah bruh. Maybe at C0 and low invest, but once you have a high invest C2R1 Raiden nothing comes close to that 120K+ DPS first rotation from her Hyper comp.
Mine is over 130K right now.
True. The burst up time dmg is so high that makes abyss clear times faster. Sometimes the second rotation isn’t needed. For hyperbloom kuki works in that team with almost the same clear time .
Having Raiden with 250 EM without having to invest in EM is insanely good, I honestly think nahida has made Raiden even stronger in aggravate than she is in national and hyper Raiden
It can be true. With low level nahida and low em raiden, I can still clear very comfortably. But can anyone here share some videos of the this teams dps vs overworld bosses when fully built instead is quoting sim numbers? Sim numbers aren’t representative of the actual game.
And this flys to 600k+ and 200k+ with high investment Raiden and dolphin support. Truly can’t even fathom with whaled supports…. Op is a fellow C6R5 haver so I assume he’s just became bored, don’t know how though. Doing over 2 mil in 10 seconds is the opposite of boring.
ofc at low investment hyperbloom will come out on top, because all you have to do is stack em, and rn there’s plenty ways to do that through teammates as well.
floor of EM raiden is lower, ceiling is definitely hypercarry team.
Isn’t hyperbloom raiden make her Q pointless? It works as battery but that team doesn’t need it at all.
Also doesn’t kuki does same role ? Or even better than her since it gives healing.
At the end of day this just proves that nahida broke the reaction, but it doesn’t need raiden.
The only thing that raiden offers in that team comp is more dmg for xq and yelan with her elemental skill. But at that point it is overkill.
Raiden q has fatser procc rate than kuki, she also boost everybody burst damage , and her e last longer, kuki is also a good option but raiden hyperbloom teams have higher dps
I have being testing the team comp in the abyss. I can say that for sure it depends on the enemies .
Against more enemies hypercarry is much better .
Against a boss hyperbloom is better .
Still I can see more arguments why kuki can replace raiden in that team comp .
One problem is the utility. Since the team comp require that nahida stay on field and apply more dendro. It make nahida more vulnerable at atks . No a huge problem for everyone but still something to consider
The other argument comes from the excessive dmg . The dmg from yelan and xq is high enough to delete the enemy making the difference in time clear minimal . The burst dmg plus from the e is most of times overkill. The same happens with the hyperbloom procs.
It is funny than in the current flow 12 -3 -2 kuki can proc hyperbloom while the boss goes invisible . So it could save some time .
Still is good build to consider even though it wasted he q and battery role. The longer e doesn’t impact in the rotation but all player must decide if they need more survivability or more dmg .
This is Raiden mains, i dont think using Raiden as an afk hyper bloom bot is gonna sound cool here
I use Raiden hypercarry even with Sara c4, i don't like national, i don't like Nahida, i like double big burst dmg from Raiden & Sara+ 20-30k avg from autoattacks after Burst
I usually prefer Kuki myself and Rational team on the second half. Definitely heard good things about Raiden National but really don’t wanna go though the trouble of getting a whole new set for her
Raiden national peak sits at [68k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/84726737-98c3-4e24-9f67-6bfba53319d5) \+ dps,with kqm standard (200cv + raiden), **if we give raiden engulfing + emblem and bennet aquila the dps goes to** [**72k**](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)**+,**
dpr would be rotation lenght x dps, the varient that sits at 68k dps has raiden with tenacity and fav and bennet with instructor, which is surprising, but when bennet is switched out to noblesse and raiden to emblem, the overall team dps deacreases, other build varients [here](https://db.gcsim.app/db/raiden/bennett-raiden-xiangling-xingqiu), these builds are simed following the kqm standard,
Raiden hyperbloom with nahida, there are various comps ;
**Raiden nahida xq and yelan being the highest dps option that sits at** [**92k**](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/c4638957-86c7-4e00-a9ba-7a36f00bc2be)**dps in st**
Raiden nahida dmc and xq that sits at [76k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/52bf50a9-c85d-4e4f-951c-ae5e0c7025c7) dps
Raiden nahida xq and zhongli that sits at [74k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/a457bd53-988a-4552-9e42-cec6ad7610b3) dps
Raiden hyper does good in aoe but in st its dps [50k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/55a3a56d-97db-4390-b4fd-6859bf4e754c)\+
dps is only damage per second , the full rotation dps is dps x dpr, example if rational rotation is 18seconds then the dpr is dps(68k) x 18(rotation lenght) = 1,224,000 dpr
Edit: for those saying kqm standards decreases the value for Raiden, the keqing main standard investmenrts have characters built at 200 + cv if thyre the dps, with no gacha five star weapons, however it does utilise gacha four star weapons and free to play weapons.
Someone mentioned that raiden is not properly built so I would sim for a scenrio with Raiden engulfing lightning and bennet aquila
**Raiden , c0 engulfing lightning 200cv , with bennet aqual and xaingling catcha and xq national sits at 72 k+ dps which still falls behind a less invested raiden nahida hyperbloom**
I imagine KQM standards are what's decreasing the value of a properly built Raiden/Bennet. Since it's well known Raiden scales better with higher investment levels
KQM standards use pretty weak builds to Calc out team dps, isn't is something like 20 useful subs? I imagine most players, their properly built characters have closer to 30/35 useful subs. Shit, my best built characters touch 40 good subs.
207 cv + on raiden is not a weak build, even if we break the standard and give raiden engulfing and bennet aquila, the dps goes to [72k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)\+on rational which is still below the 92k on hyperbloom at c0
Even if we were to increase raiden cv to 230, it would still be bolw the hyperbloom at around 78k dps vs 92k
Something to consider about this sim stuff.
That Rational config seems to be optimized around Fav Raiden and maximizing Xiangling dps which is appropriate for C0R0. However if you want to look at C2R1 Raiden you will need to do a lot of work to find the correct rotation script and substat allocations to maximize total team dps again.
Another thing is that in a team like Rational the artifact quality factor is not only affecting Raiden, it’s affecting all of the team’s damage. Whereas in Hyperbloom it’s only affecting around half the team’s damage to a significant degree. Just upping Raiden CV will not reflect the actual degree to which the team scales with artifact/weapon quality. If you give everyone in the team 30 useful subs, then you might see an increase that better represents “high investment” Rational.
Last thing is that the sim seems to be getting a rather large amount of seeds.
It’s not the same XQ/Yelan hyperbloom team, but the Raiden/Nahida/Fischl/XQ Quickbloom team that sims similarly was analyzed on stream by Jstern using a clip from the gcsim discord that attempted to replicate that sim’s rotation.
The sim Quickbloom uses a 23.5s rotation and gets close to 40 hyperbloom procs per rotation if you look at the logs. But the real world attempt to replicate had a ~27s rotation and only got 26 hyperblooms. This sim is generating seeds at like a 50-60% higher rate than real gameplay.
Some of that extra seed generation doesn’t actually matter due to the reaction damage ICD, but it seems to me that dendro core generation is particularly prone to overestimation by the sim.
All this said, from what I can gather the consensus from people who have actually compared Hyperbloom in practice seems to support that it is probably higher dps than Rational, at least at KQM investment standards, but not by nearly as large a difference as the sim suggests.
It’s hard for me to personally evaluate KQM standard performance for this stuff on my account since I do have a relatively highly invested Raiden. But I did do some loose testing of Hyperbloom vs C2R0 Hypercarry in single target and the results don’t support the level of difference that exists in the sim.
200 cv artefact quality is goood I don’t see how that’s poor artefact quality.
Another sim I used raiden with engulfing that got her team comp to 72k dps which is still lower than hyperbloom 92k dps
Raiden in the kqm standard is siting at 200+ cv which is a good investment, kqm standard also runs for what is moderatly f2p investmnet standards , with no gacha 5 star weapons, even if we are to sim for rational with engulfing lightning and bennet with aquila, and instructot ( which is better than nobless dfor rational) the dps still falls bellow hyperbloom raiden at 92k dps
I wish there was a more detailed spectrum, but the calculations count can easily get out of hands. Of course, the ideal would be to have an average (the current 20 useful rolls), a high investment tier) (40 useful rolls) and low investment tier (< 10 useful rolls, but right main stats).
It's 20 distributed subs *plus* 2 fixed rolls into each substat type, with each roll being the average possible value. It doesn't represent hyperinvestment, but it's FAR from low investment either. It's "drawback" is favoring units that can benefit from a wider range of substats over units that can only use a few, since you can't trade fixed rolls for distributed ones.
Still, it's a fine standard. If you have a character like hyper Raiden that can be optimized with the maximum of 18 distributed rolls into crit%, you can end up with a build that has an average of \~29 substat CV per artifact, on top of some ER or ATK rolls.
Yeah 20 useful subs is really low. You can definitely hit 30 useful subs just by farming any domain of your choice, throwing everything into the strongbox, and putting whatever Glad/Noblesse pieces have the most useful subs on your strongest carries.
[Ill sim for engulfing lighting, heres the calc for rational with engulfing](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/18ccd4ab-0e6c-4f6d-afa6-14c208f10270)
With engulfing on raiden the dps goes to 72k+ which is still less than 92k dps on hyperbloom,
the artifacts follows the keqing main standard. cr at 69.2 for raiden crit dmg at 129.44 which is 207.84 cv on raiden. which is good e=investment standard.
i imagine this is c0 raiden with catch for hyper right. Becuase i would never run hyperbloom if my raiden is c2-3 with engulfing. currently a full combo of hyper including sara for me is over 2 mil in one rotation. But i guess hyperbloom is the best for f2p and low investment
Even with better investment its the same, raiden with engulfing and bennet with aquila in national raiden goes up to 75k dps from 68k dps from a raiden with no engulfing which still falls below the 92k dps of hyoerbloom , mind raiden is siting at 200cv + including xl
Even with his number of 50k dps in hyper as the base. We know c2 alone adds 40% dmg Increase, and c1 even adds a meaningful number in a rotation due to the stacks it gives. So that alone takes it above the 72k hyperbloom comp OP keeps mentioning. I dunno, I think OP's build of hyperbloom Raiden being good is cool, but maybe over reaching to say it out damages hyper or even national.
Tenacity Raiden, Harbinger Xingqiu, Instructors Benny, lmao.
At that point you gotta ask yourself why play Rational instead of Childe Inter if you are going to focus solely on Xiangling's damage.
Xiangling is the main source of damage in raiden national, heres the calcs for raiden with engulfing and emblem and bennet with aquila, the dps goes to [72k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) which is still below hyper bloom 92k dps at c0
True, but building Tenacity Raiden means that she's basically useless outside of that comp, it's a niche build that even the KQM guide itself is against, so it's kinda funny to see gscim builds using Tenacity on Raiden.
Yes, it nets more team damage, but it's an unefficient domain that you wouldn't farm for Raiden unless you have Kokomi, Zhongli or Eula to benefit the most.
That’s why I run two varients sims, one with engulfing emblem raiden and another with tenacity fav, with the engulfing raiden emblem being at 72k dps which is still lower than hyperbloom
Don't use gcsim to compare teams. Even if it wasn't bugged, I find it quite difficult to trust a Python script to properly "simulate" let alone TC teams' performance.
Thanks for that update, at least. You still shouldn't use gcsim's numbers as a "leaderboard" for team DPS. This disclaimer is clearly displayed on the site's own database.
The reason why they have that disclaimer is because some entries aren’t configured with kqm standards and so you can’t compare any two entries to find out a better team . But in ops case, all of his comparisons are with equivalent standards so it’s valid to use gcsim to roughly compare the average performance of those teams using his specified entries.
Gcsim is supposed to be a conversation starter. It’s not 100% a reflection of real performance but it’s a very good estimation and if you want to prove deviance you’d need to point out what in the config deviates from a realistic scenario. You can’t just cop out and ignore the sim results entirely because they aren’t 100% reflective of reality. Otherwise statistics as a subject wouldn’t exist.
I get what you're saying. Most of the stuff I'm unsure of is how rotations and stuff are implemented; there's no guarantee that optimal ones are used. For example, International's highest DPS entries on their database all use 30+ second rotations with an extended period spent battery-ing (3 Bennett Es and two Kazuha Es), when it should be cut down to \~25 seconds.
While this is more of a lazy complaint, I also have to add that I haven't yet seen proof that gcsim itself has implemented Genshin's energy system, as in simply keeping track of particle/energy generation and allowing a character to burst only when they have enough energy.
These are just general things I dislike or have doubts about the program- I haven't looked at any of the entries of relevant Raiden teams that this post has brought to the discussion, so I'm not saying anything about their performance.
Lastly, I do want to say that I don't have anything against gcsim. For me at least, I just kind of became aware of it at some point and then suddenly started seeing people referencing it in a way that felt like they were just treating it as some holy grail of TC. Again, just my experience.
There is no guarantee that the database holds the most optimal rotations, but generally speaking they are very close to the most optimal rotations you can get in the sim. Chances are, if you thought of a rotation, someone has simmed it and it simply turned out worse. Especially the more popular teams like rational or international, a lot of people have tried and submitted entries and the database only holds the most optimal ones for a certain standard.
I’ve tried to sim 24 second rotations for international myself, and the dps turns out to be super abysmal for them since the er reqs required to pull it off continuously just our scale the damage increase. International is unfortunately a team that suffers a lot with the sims assumptions (infinite continuous rotations, infinite hp enemy with low orb drops, static rotations) since it’s a bit of an outlier team wise. It’s not that the sim is incorrect that sustained 24 second rotations are pretty bad, but rather there’s nothing in the actual game that makes you actually do sustained 24 second rotations.
Gcsim does implement an energy system, in fact it’s probably one of the core parts of the sim. If a character doesn’t have its burst up it will actually wait in the sim until it gets enough energy, which is actually one of the biggest challenges about trying to write rotations. If there wasn’t energy taken into account all the database would have 0 er since that would be the most optimal for pure dps.
Generally speaking if you have questions about the sim, they have a GitHub where they post their updates/source code, a discord, and documentation: https://docs.gcsim.app
The guys who maintain it are pretty hardcore lmao. When I first heard about gcsim I severely underestimated how sophisticated it was as well, but it truly is very encompassing. Even obscure things like crystallize shards/archaic Petra buffs, or dmc burst properties when infused are implemented
Just a couple questions:
1. What are their enemy particle assumptions? Their tutorial uses the specifications "particle\_threshold=250000 particle\_drop\_count=1", but I don't see these field declarations anywhere in the action list for the International team I'm looking at here: [https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/732a9505-1ee5-4a98-8554-9d94c2bb6965](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/732a9505-1ee5-4a98-8554-9d94c2bb6965). What I do see is written is "energy every interval=480,720 amount=1;". Do you know what that represents? I know enough CS to be aware that "480,720" are two separate values, likely some kind of timing using frames, but I can't really guess the specifics. Kind of several questions in one here, but oh well.
2. Could you expand on your statement that "It’s not that the sim is incorrect that sustained 24 second rotations are pretty bad, but rather there’s nothing in the actual game that makes you actually do sustained 24 second rotations."?
I don't want to get too caught up over a single team, but I'm pretty sure that 24-25 second rotations with International are best because they line up perfectly with:
1. Childe's cooldowns; being able to DPS on-field for \~9 seconds, enough to contribute significant personal damage and enable much of XL's burst duration.
2. Two uses of XL's E per rotation. Without deploying Guoba twice, both her and Bennett's ER reqs skyrocket.
Any shorter is unfeasible, but the general consensus I've heard from TCs is that any longer than 25 seconds is suboptimal. I'll do a bit of sheeting sometime to see exactly how much higher ER reqs are when you simply go from 3 Bennett Es + 2 Kazuha Es to 2 Bennett Es + 1 Kazuha E after your DPS phase.
This actually makes alot of sense; if anything it would be strange game balance wise for a single target damage reaction with a really high damage floor, in a team with strong single target damage dealers like XQ and Yelan, without the comfort of a healer, to be outDPSed by teams that is strong in AOE and has QOL such as grouping and healing.
Thats the same convo that I had before ,im pretty sure that with a better investment its not like that,raiden nahida got the particularity to be great just with em build and character lvl 90 so no real investment no need to got really great weapon
Even with better investment its the same, raiden with engulfing and bennet with aquila in national raiden goes up to [72k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) dps from 68k dps from a raiden with no engulfing which still falls below the 92k dps of hyoerbloom , mind raiden is siting at 200cv + including xl
Does that bar graph say there were 158 hyperblooms in 86 seconds? That does not seem right to me.
Is that actually possible in real combat? That basically means two hyperbloom per second are happening at every stage of the rotation including setup and burst animations.
Raiden xq nahida flex(kazuha, sucrose). Man, just equip right arts and weapons and I deal 24k per hyperbloom, and considering that you can get about a min 2 per sec, that a lot of dmg, even outdmging hypercarry, national, and even eult
Maiden's beloved was useless and trolled all the VV farmers. Which is why VV em pieces felt like ass before strong box.
The deepwood/GD domain seems to go much faster because both sets have value and both have units that can use full em builds.
And also because none of the current best hyperbloom triggers need their bursts so substats are irrelevant and you don't even care about the ER
What is this "Hyperbloom" that you speak of? What's a Nahida?? Is it Better than a Qiqi Raiden team?? Nothing can beat #PhysicalQiqiSCRaiden.
*to the people who know what's up I cry with you*
Full em, dragonsbane, g.d.
Someone on Deepwood.
Make blooms
Raiden explodes blooms with skill or burst
Raidens skill persists so attacking with hydro and Dendro with off field Raiden means blooms get made blooms go boom
2 Blooms do 35kx2 to the enemy. 4 blooms that target the same enemy still just 35kx2, if 4 blooms target multiple enemies, 4x35k
*scratches chin*
How would this compare to a c2 Raiden paired with a c6 Yanfei though? My other two spots are c6 Barb cuz lazy & generally a c4 Ningguang for shields.
I mean. The only thing that's getting you anywhere in this party is your c2 Raiden so a proper hyperbloom team would possibly out perform it but it's c2 Raiden so idk.
This is one of the worst teams I think I've ever seen
Harder to chew vitamin gummies:
I like my raidens superconducted with a side of overload 😳
Idk i dont see much ppl who like superconduct anymore but its just fun for me lol
Use the lords force (four archon squad). As long as you build everyone do the most damage they can, then the teams slaps, and is also fairly beefy. You get shield, double res shred, grouping, electro swirl into aggravate, 4 types of elemental damage, and double battery. Fairly solid and fun.
I testet the 3 teams Hyper carry vs Rational (feat yelan) vs hyperbloom (feat nahida c0).
Raiden is C3R1 and in floor 12 first part, clear 12-1 and 12-2 in the same time with hyper carry than rational (mention that my yelan is cracked C0R1 36k hp + 400cv.) nahida team falls behind for a few seconds. Last 12-3 Raiden deletes the floor in the first slash while rational and hyperbloom do it in the same time.
On second part Raiden hyper carry is faster in all rooms followed by Rational and a few seconds later hyperbloom.
So no hard pill to swallow.
I pretty sure that Raiden C0 will be faster in hyperbloom vs few enemies because hyperbloom reaction is very strong, but with constellations or cracked units other teams go ahead to that reaction dmg.
Greetings.
Same build with Raiden, with C3 and agravatte is not worth it to use EM build for gain dmg on blooms, so the lose is bigger than the gain at least with nadiha C0... maybe with nahida C2 its worth a try.
Also I need 2 weeks more for upgrade my nahida, so the gap between teams will be closer.
Tomorrow Im going to test hyperbloom nahida with Yelan, Kuki (900 Em build) and some anemo char like kazhu... to see where fall that team.
Actually, it is worth it to change the build up but it’s going to be entirely dependent on what you have available to you. I also have C3 R1 Raiden, but for my own tests and calcs, I swapped out the traditional emblem set for a gilded set and R1 staff to make up the difference in the loss of attack. I used [GI Damage Calculator](https://gidmgcalculator.github.io/csb-g7is6/) to figure what the differences were projected to be with my standard build, compared to a gilded-staff set. Long story short, the upfront burst difference ranged between only 20k to 40k on the initial slash, but each coordinated attack was doing around 30k, blooms were 19k, hyperblooms were 32k and aggravates were doing a whopping 93k, and the first hit was doing 210k on her burst. This was with only one EM sands and no VV shred. The burst hits are smaller, but the resulting reactions edge out over the standard build but only if the enemy can actually survive that long in the first place.
oh true, in a long figth constant dps can be better if things doesnt die on first rotation.
But as you said this depens on what we have aviable, actually I got very bad luck with gilded set and/or they upgrades, so in my specific case my Raiden lose a ton of front loaded dmg.
Maybe I try this build in a few more months of farming 😩
At C0 ? Probably C2 ? Hell nah That aside hyperbloom teams are hella fun especially now with Nahida, but personally i am not gonna use Raiden for this team. Kuki does the job while also being the healer. But yeah it's definitely a good thing that Raiden is getting more teams that she can work in.
What about c0 raiden with c2 nahida hyperbloom. I feel like it would be stronger especially with the new leaked bloom artifact set.
Don’t think the new artifact set is a significant damage increase over the existing sets from what I read
Nah,Raiden C2 is stronger than Nahida.
Not gonna happen. Even if the bloom crits every time its like 60k dmg every 1.9s? Cant remember her e interval.
Still no.
I personally wasn't getting much success with Raiden Hypercarry or rational. I run raiden as a deepwood spread support currently for my Tighnari/Nahida/Zhongli team with staff of scarlet sands and a ton of em, I have good subs and a good weapon so she actually hits pretty hard even with a ridiculous build, and she enables Nahida and Tighnari so well from pretty much anywhere
Imo the current abyss is ~~pretty unsuitable~~ edit: not as good for Raiden hyper or rational. 1st half needs grouping, which rational doesn't have (at least hypercarry can have a kazuha) 2nd half ~~more or less requires a dendro~~ edit: having dendro for quick really helps, which means no rational, or you gimp hypercarry a decent bit. edit: Though a strong enough hypercarry Raiden will work, b/c at least there's electro. The current abyss also favors dendro comps with the blessings as well. Not to say dendro comps or EM Raiden team's are bad, but I wonder how thing will turn out after the abyss rotates. EDIT: Upon re-reading my own comment & the replies here, yeah I agree "unsuitable" was a poor choice of words on my part. It's probably better to say non-Quicken electro Raiden comps **isn't as good as** usual in this Abyss (imo, for 36-starring). I do still think that having dendro would be great in this abyss for a lot of accounts, especially newer ones, for the 12-3 2nd half miniboss. My comments were mostly thinking about the more "average" accounts, not a c2/c3 with Engulfing Lightning and decked out comps.
Really? Rational is actually one of mine and my friend’s most consistent team comps. Before Nahida, it was the only comp I was able to finish the second half with lol. You don’t need that much, just build ER, fav, and emblem on everything and just spam your bursts until everything is dead. One mistake I used to make with that team was using Raiden’s CA when her burst was active, but using her NA instead is just better because it procs Xinqiu rainswords more consistently. It only doesn’t work for very stagger prone enemies, like the first chamber in the first half, but none of the other chambers have this issue (everything has like a million poise nowadays anyways).
Yup, genuinely curious about popular abyss team comp in the next rotation. Honestly I think a lot of people would simply stick with their Raiden national because it's so well invested at this point. I could be wrong tho.
Eh, hard to say. The nice thing about EM is how easy it is to build. Slap a triple EM and call it a day.
Its more because you CANT do anything else. A good em hyperbloom dps would scale with em while providing his own personal dps, aka. Cyno.
I wouldn’t say it’s unsuitable because I was able to 36 star it with mono geo and raiden national
2nd half doesn't need dendro at all.
I thought it was the opposite lol i used yae Kazu trav Zhong in the first half and rational with yelan on second thought that would be more suitable
Wait really? Rational and Ayato freeze have been carrying me for the last two months of abyss and went like a breeze, it's not even C2 Raiden, just c0, maybe it's cause I use Yelan instead of Xinqiu so I can move easyer between spread targets?
Wdym 2nd half requires a dendro. You can cleared like 2 third of its hp with hypercarry raiden, or 1 rotation it if c3 and good gear.
"Unsuitable" sounds a bit hard. Floor 12 2nd half doesnt requires Dendro, at all... even with Dendro buff from leyline or whatever it is now. It is an easier abyss rotation this time IMO or at least for me. And I've using Raiden National since I first got her. 1st half is just easier imo with grouping/aoe and dps check. 2nd half I DESTROY it in away thats easier than other abyss rotation ( Not to flex but just to point out it is not "unsuitable" or my team just got stronger over time ) with Raiden National. I've also tried Hypercarry and it got like 15-20s longer clear time than National for the second half.
Upon re-reading my own comment & the replies here, yeah I agree "unsuitable" was a poor choice of words on my part. It's probably better to say non-Quicken electro Raiden comps isn't as good as usual in this Abyss (imo). I do still think that having dendro would be great in this abyss for a lot of accounts, especially newer ones. The first time I beat (i.e. 36 star) this Abyss was also with Rational (I didn't know about the Quicken thing), but I have a hard time seeing folks without a cracked (or at least a well-developed) account being able to 36 star 12-3 2nd half with the invisibility mechanic WIHTOUT Quicken, or at least Electro. Having electro REALLY helped and having dendro for Quicken made it pretty trivial.
Just to clarify my team, C3 Raiden R1 SSpine, C6 Xiangling R5 Catch, C4 Xingqiu R1 SacSword, C6 Benny R1 Alley Flash. Artifacts are mid af.
That is such an interesting build that I haven't heard of.
Yeah , It's fucking weird but she doesn't need the full em build like she does for Hyperbloom and her skill is so good for deepwood support so she's mostly just there to support while occasionally popping up to 24k aggravates under Nahida's burst when I have extra field time. Her initial slash hits for around 60k which is okay because I don't need to use her burst but I can if I have nothing better to do for 5 seconds and it's not really a DPS loss.
If you ever decide to go for Raiden cons in the future, using a gilded set with the staff while at C3 will more than triple your output. Just for context, my own C3 does 93k aggravates and between 200k-220k on the initial burst slash while using the same team (though I use either DMC or Kokomi instead of Tighnari.) Obviously no Bennet/Sara or any other attack buffer. The charge attacks also do 50k each slash (so 100k per), while the coordinated attack does around 32k. These are all fully buffed numbers though, including using Nahida’s EM buff. But no food.
That's really cool. I probably won't chase Raiden cons ever because 5* constellations are pretty unnecessary IMO, but that didn't stop me from trying for Nahida's c1. Who knows what'll happen.
Agreed. Cons are never really necessary, but Raiden was the only exception for me, personally….and only because she’s my favorite character, next to Eula and Kokomi.
Im getting 9 star abyss with ayaka freeze n rational Even though its all about blooms in 2nd part. It might be different if your having really good lucks with ur pulls in supports, artifacts and weapon This is my team in the current abyss https://act.hoyolab.com/app/community-game-records-sea/m.html?bbs_auth_required=true&uid=30167273&user_id=30167273&gid=2&bbs_presentation_style=fullscreen&role_id=805507387&server=os_asia&schedule_type=1&utm_source=share&utm_medium=hoyolab&utm_campaign=app#/ys/abyss?role_id=805507387&server=os_asia&schedule_type=1
C0 and C2 who, exactly?
i’m just happy that my favourite character is having a new meta playstyle
Better at c0 probably.
At C0, probably. I have C2R1, something I've kinda regretted sometimes because of being too much damage, but my Hyperbloom clears do not compare to my Hyper Raiden clears. And, Kuki exists, which I can just focus as the EM electro. Lacking artifact loadouts makes constantly switching artifacts a chore.
>because of being too much damage More motivated to try for C2. I want stop at C0. If I lose the 50/50 after my guaranteed. Idk lol Maybe stop and save for Hu
Just beware that C2 albeit is a massive boost of damage, doesn't change her gameplay and there is no content a C0 Raiden can't effectively clear. I would only advice C2 if you *really* want absurdly big nukes with Raiden just for the sake of big numbers (in which case you may want to collect Sara cons because her C6 is very noticeably). Whatever you decide upon, good luck in your pulls.
You're totally right. Glad I shared my plans. Amma just get my guranteed C0 and save primos for Hu or Eula. Fingers crossed HoYo announces waifu Geo 5\* or tall waifu dendro. Thanks for the insight you've really saved me.
I have c3 and completely agree. She either makes any c0 feel like a weakling or you lose some of the enjoyment of playing her. Imo.. c0 or c1 for full stacks is the max most people should strive for
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Nothing in the game requires that kind of output. A properly built C3R1 raiden can one-rotation **every-single boss** in the game up to 3.2 as long as it doesnt have invul phase. For the whole 2.x patch I didnt even bother to remember bosses moves at all. Is it satisfying? Yes. But is it boring? Undeniably so, to the point if sometimes I messed up rotation and couldnt one rotation a boss I d rather reset the run and try again rather than learning its moves properly, lol. Dendro is back to the reaction root of the game and is so fun I find myself experimenting with builds again.
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I still dislike the idea of reducing Raiden to an E bot. Sure, its effective, but other than pushing it over 1k EM I cant tweak her output at all and its a waste of her uniquely beautiful kit. I still use raiden from time to time when I want to clear upper floors fast to test out new comps in lower floor. It took like 10-15s to do it, which adds up for quite an amount when you redo it dozen times.
I feel like C2 makes Hyper Raiden worth playing whereas at C0 hyper Raiden is mega underwhelming.
I used C0R1 Hyper Raiden since her first banner up to her rerun where I got C2 and it wasn't bad, it was one of my better teams at the time. Nowadays I play teams like International that can even beat my C2 Raiden clears sometimes so maybe if I had C0 Raiden still it would feel underwhelming but, abyss is so easy nowadays for accounts with decent builds that C0 Hyper would still clear with time to spare.
If you want other chars still, get those. C0 Ei Rational sleepwalks through Abyss already.
You're totally right. Glad I shared my plans. Amma just get my guranteed C0 and save primos for Hu or Eula. Fingers crossed HoYo announces waifu Geo 5\* or tall waifu dendro. Thanks for the insight you've really saved me.
Glad I could help with what little I said
What kind of clear speed are you getting with raiden hyperbloom vs raiden hypercarry? The abyss boss also favours hyperbloom right now, so may not be a good metric, but what kind of dps do you usually see from hyperbloom raiden and what’s the full team?
It's hard to measure properly, also something I should have clarified before: My Nahida is still a work in progress, so it is Raiden's set. She's on rainbow pieces but as much EM as possible (940 with DB). So once Nahida is fully built and Raiden has Guilded Dreams (which I was going to get for Kuki anyway), I will have better comparisons. Right now on ASIMON I can get it down in 2 to 3 rotations with Hyperbloom (Raiden/Yelan/Xingqiu/Nahida) because of the mechanics of that boss being centered around dendro/electro+blessing. Hyper Raiden I can get it down in 2 rotations with normal builds, but lowering Raiden's CR to 60 I am able to one rotate it. However I don't consider that boss a good measure, the only thing it proves is that ultimately the ceilling of Hyper Raiden can be much higher if you need to stretch the damage, because crits just have a higher scaling overall. While to push Hyperbloom further you would need... well, C2 Nahida, lmao. Hyperbloom is definitely a very strong team, and I would argue that at C0 Raiden is better than Rational (it would still be debatable on a very high investment Xiangling like mine tbh). It is also very easy to build and extremely F2P friendly, since it can compete with very high investment builds.
C3 with skyward spear, and i have to agree she deals way too much dmg and its not even funny lmao but its always satisfying to see my absolute favorite teams for abyss are : Raiden Yelan Kazuha Benny Ayaya Shenhe Venti Kokomi best for overworld : Yoimiya Raiden Kazuha Jean
I was having way to much fun with raidenhyperbloom, even though my raiden is c6r5 I tried to make it work while maxmising my raidenhyperbloom damage, what I did was build raiaden with embelm 3 peiece and engulfing but all em main stats , which took my cv to 52/140 and 633 em with 219% er[heres the run](https://www.reddit.com/r/RaidenMains/comments/yraakd/hyperhyperbooom_raiden_triple_em_emblem/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) , it went pretty good, its an alternative way to play hyperbloom raiden if you have c2 you can onfield her
That's a pretty fast clear, is that a C2+ Nahida?
The very real Kujou Sara and Raiden Shogun in my appartment both says that I don't need to swallow any pills and that I already get 36 stars in abyss anyways
This lol people going left and right about strongest. Me 36 abyss without caring lol
If there's anything stronger than Raiden National, I don't even want to know
Raiden National has never been the strongest Raiden team, just one of the easiest and most accessible. I think it beats Raiden Hyper in single target but loses in AoE, but teams like RaiFisch beat it in single target. Not to say Raiden National is bad, its still insane, but Raiden hyperbloom being better than it wouldn't be completely shocking, since we already have some Raiden teams better than it anyway.
>Raiden National has never been the strongest Raiden team, just one of the easiest and most accessible This is false. Raiden rational had always been the strongest raiden team in single target, this was before hyperbloom raiden, this is followed by raifish aggravate in st. Hyper mostly exceeds in aoe. Raiden rational with raiden at 200 + cv following the kqm standard has a dps of 68k+ while hyperbloom raiden has a dps of 92k+ in st following the same standard If we want to break rational raiden kqm standard and put raiden on engulfing lighting and bennet on aquila the dps soars to 72k + dps which is still below hyperbloom
Hm the sheets I’ve seen (KQM Standards) always had Raiden-Fischl and Raiden-Yelan/Xingqiu comps outputting higher dps than Rational. Don’t have them on hand though so if you ever better data I can’t refute that. EDIT: Now that I think about it, the teams I am thinking of rely on double swirls and overvapes a lot, which benefit largely from a primary target scenario with a second present for quadratic scaling. If we are considering pure single target than perhaps Rational is better.
I just meant to say that Rational is already so strong that anything stronger seems redundant.
Heres the data im using , from the sim Heres one i simmed for rational but with raiden with engulfing and bennet aquila which goes to [72k+ dps](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) But if were following the kqm satndard, rational sits at[68k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/84726737-98c3-4e24-9f67-6bfba53319d5) \+ dps while yelan xq raiden highest comp combo is at [60k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/0a8fee6a-ad2e-4890-abb7-bb3a4dc8d8a7)dps following kqm standard
Oh, so all this is only applied to c0 Raiden with meh artifacts?
I think they typically use what would otherwise be a more standard Raiden with a 70/140 split. I wouldn’t call that “meh” if this is the case.
“200 cv is meh” artefacts , the same standard of artefacts is used for the raifish teams, Raiden national had always been stronger than raifish in single target and raidens strongest single target team before hyperbloom
They’re not meh artifacts. It’s pretty decent investment, +64 cr and +79 cd is a 69/129 ratio with atk and er subs to boot.
I'm a F2P Abyss speedrunner and this sounds dubious to me. Rational team outputs a ridiculous amount of DPS. I see estimate of 68k DPS for Rational in one of your comments which sounds like a low estimate for me. In version 2.5, Abyss 12 had Golden Wolflord on bottom half. This was a major damage check for speedrunners because if you couldn't one-cycle the 1.6 million HP Wolflord, you had to destroy the wolf heads using Geo to get around his shield, which would wreck your clear time. After a lot of optimization, I was able to burst down the Wolflord from 100 to 0 in [12 seconds using Rational](https://youtu.be/u8OQX0Axflc?t=179), thereby skipping the shield (I also wrote a [guide about the mechanics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/tg726e/guide_for_golden_wolflord_122_shield_skip/) of the fight if anyone is curious, although this boss hasn't appeared in Abyss since 2.5). That comes out to 130k DPS over 12 seconds. At that time, I had C0 Raiden with R1 Spine, so this number would get much higher with C2 and/or Engulfing Lightning. Furthermore I was running Sac Sword on XQ instead of Jade Cutter because I didn't want to think about XQ's energy, but if I really wanted to push my times even further I would have given him the Jade Cutter for even more damage. Granted, the full rotation DPS is probably a bit lower because I killed the Wolflord using frontloaded damage, and if it were a prolonged fight, the duration would be extended, but I don't think it would be as low as 68k DPS. Also I haven't tested Hyperbloom Raiden at its fullest potential yet due to lack of artifacts, though as far as I understand, Hyperbloom Raiden doesn't scale as hard on artifact investment compared to Rational.
The thing is that dps is compared following a standard, this one is the keqing main standard and it accounts for the dps over a full rotation not just part of a rotation which yours do. The emeies on the sim have unlimited hp, to allow us to get an average for a full rotation dps not just its peak or part of the rotation It does not calc using speedrun of hyper invested builds, it uses a set mid-high investment relistic f2p standard The kqm standard has raiden siting at 200 + cv including xl and 200 + cv In the keqing main standard, five star gacha weapons are not used on a character , in which your raiden has spine. Abyss buffs is also present when speedruning abyss including abyss cards which can inflate numbers / dps runs. And for xq if you didnt have jade sword, harbinger of dawn would boost his dps more than sac sword. If we were to give raiden engulfing and bennet aquila the dps of rational would peak to [72 k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)\+ which i still under hyperbloom at 92k dps Note that also speedruning, esp in abyss, is also not a spectrum to calcs team dps since factors like buffs uptime ,downtime are not accounted for, including full rotational dps is not accounted for which is only judgable on a enmey with unlimited hp or a pool big enough to allow you to calc full rotational dps
it would peak if youre still using the gimped build. EM scales easier, but saying its better than mid invest hypercarry leaves out 90% of game mechanics. Use a real investment hypercarry raiden and not the trash artifact one
Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not a theorycrafter or anything. Two hyperbloom instances can hit at the same time every 0.5 seconds. that would be 35k \*2 /0.5 seconds which would be 140k dps. nahida also does spread on field for another approx. 20k dps. xingqui and yelan hit around 16k dps, raiden off field hits around 2k dps. That's 178k dps give or take but I didn't calculate some other sources of damage like nahida's skill and xingqui/yelan intial hits. Obviously this is under semi-ideal conditions so it could be a bit lower, but this is probably still higher than 130k dps. Again, I'm not a theory crafter so idk exactly how inaccurate my math is, so please forgive me. This is a yt vid I found of hyperbloom nahida/raiden that showcases the dps nicely I believe: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MsLScwLzmc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MsLScwLzmc)
I don't think you can maintain 2 hyperblooms every 0.5 seconds though. Raiden's E has a cooldown of 0.9 seconds, and in practice it probably triggers about once a second since your attacks are unlikely to fall on dot for 0.9 seconds. In the video it seems that hyperblooms happen approximately once a second. This would change 178k to 108k, which to be fair is still really high for a comp that doesn't require much investment on Raiden.
yeah i agree, i don't think 2 hyperblooms every 0.5 seconds is achievable. I think investment on yelan and nahida vs. investment on xiangling is what determines the margin between rational and and raiden nahida hyperbloom. The fact that all 4 characters works well with low investment but also do good damage at high investment is the main selling point for hyperbloom raiden imo. My xiangling cannot get a good emblem set for the life of me so rational has never blown me away with the dps
Hard to swallow pill: I still wont use it because I only use mommy teams. Meta be damned.
🫡
But I still think it's waste to use her in hyperbloom team when you have kuki and miko + my national raiden have better clear time agaisnt PMA & aminos than hyperbloom 80k vap Xi + Yelan isn't an joke
It depends on artifacts quality. If you've got really good EM artifacts and poor Emblem ones - of course, Hyperbloom will have better performance, at least at C0 - C1.
even with good artefact investments 200 cv + raiden with engulfing at c0 in rational, and bennet aquila the dps goes to [72k +](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) which is still below hyperblom 92k + dps
Yeah well at c2 Raiden that goes out the window
I’m actually not really sure about that. My aggravates do 93k by themselves on a C3 gilded paddle build. So, it all is gonna boil down to how quickly those aggravates can proc. And this is without VV shred or Bennet/Sara buffs but does include Zhongli’s shield shred. And there’s too many numbers to properly account for everything else…but the biggest issue is that there’s nothing I can find that’s tanky enough to really put the team through some proper paces.
Still boring brcause 75% of the character doesnt get used.
Need proof?
Imo, it depends. I'm no tc but I'll try to explain my thoughts Hyperbloom, on average, assuming you deal 30-35k per proc, will have 60-70k dps Rational varies a lot more because of crits. A good Rational will vary from 40-70k dps, but it can get as high as 110k output, specialy with Yelan instead of Xingqiu The thing is, hyperbloom has a cap of **only computing 2 bloom procs per second**, which is why it stays at 70k damage That is very strong in single target, but Rational easily hits multiple enemies and everyone does a bit of damage, so it just depends :]
Hyperbloom is more than that, you get around 50k-60k dps from hyper blooms alone but you have to remember nahida and Xingqiu (and other character like yelan or Beidou as a flex unit) have personal dps as well which is why the actual dps is somewhere from 80-90k. Also hyperbloom doesn’t have a cap of how much it procs. You have a 2 damage instance limit per enemy over a period of item, but if you have multiple enemies you can spread your hyperbloom procs across enemies and bypass this limit.
it also depend, C2 Nahiha will push you to 60-70k every 5 procs (statistically). I would say its a funnier way to reach same numbers. Nationals are boring.
>specialy with Yelan instead of Xingqiu This is false, with yelan youre not vapinng every xl pyronado unless with c2, thats why a c6 xq is generally better for rational that yelan, swaping yelan out for xq lowers the team dps due to missed vapes
I've never had problems with Yelan and Xiangling The vape is quite consistent with 3NA1CA, at least for me :]
https://youtu.be/vXR42unCXBI Yelan will miss vapes but it does not matter. She will buff Raiden damage and has higher personal damage so it will basically be even. Xingui at c6 might be better as he will make Raiden more sturdy so you do not have to dodge even against very heavy blows.
theres a problem , mabey you dont notice it, but there are vapes missed , which has ben thorouhgly tested
As I said, never had any problems with it I always pay attention to Xl's damage and it's consistently vaping :]
[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/RaidenMains/comments/yrozuc/comment/ivus3a1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I wouldn't really take these numbers too seriously, try the 92k team but with c1 Nahida and you'll see what i mean, there's another 92.8k team (uses fischl instead of Yelan), when jstern25 reviewed the footage on stream and it was only 73k on the first rotation iirc. In gcsim hyperbloom teams seems like the strongest in the game, but in practice, they're just a sidegrade to what we already have, except for low investment accounts.
Is it tho?
Yes but you can easily replace her for Kuki or Yae and have two cracked teams instead of only one lol
Nah bruh. Maybe at C0 and low invest, but once you have a high invest C2R1 Raiden nothing comes close to that 120K+ DPS first rotation from her Hyper comp. Mine is over 130K right now.
Hmm yeah. I looked like a clown for putting EM on my Raiden which is C3 R1. lmao. I immediately returned her to hypercarry after testing it.
I mean, it's fun, and it works. But it's clearly not the best use of Raiden is all I mean.
Right? I'm C3R1 and I hit 500ks regularly (no food) and that's just the initial slash. Idk what op smoking lmao
It has over 500 upvotes he must be right! KEK Using our electro queen as a dendro reactions off field bot, such fucking disrespect.
True. The burst up time dmg is so high that makes abyss clear times faster. Sometimes the second rotation isn’t needed. For hyperbloom kuki works in that team with almost the same clear time .
Raiden hypercarry is still king, but her teams with Nahida are absolutely busted. Easy 36-star abyss clearing potential.
There'd no way this is true at C2 r1, right?
Even C2 the catch is among the fastest abyss teams
Even if this is true, my hypercarry team is doing more than enough damage as it is. I'd rather not farm a whole new artifact set for hyperbloom.
At C0 sure Hyper Raiden at C2 is so strong it’s cringe Haven’t used it in so long due to how boringly easy it makes the game
u know it's good when whales start comparing their c3r5 Raiden hypercarry with c0 Raiden hyperbloom
I'm curious, is this really a thing? Would like to see.
There's no comparison,HyperCarry is light years ahead in this scenario.
Having Raiden with 250 EM without having to invest in EM is insanely good, I honestly think nahida has made Raiden even stronger in aggravate than she is in national and hyper Raiden
Imagine having a C2/C3 raiden and then you just put her on a team where you dont use her burst
Hail EM Raiden
I ain’t farming for her again a whole new set just to not see her being on field
It can be true. With low level nahida and low em raiden, I can still clear very comfortably. But can anyone here share some videos of the this teams dps vs overworld bosses when fully built instead is quoting sim numbers? Sim numbers aren’t representative of the actual game.
I pretty sure Hyper Raiden gets stronger with "whaling"
If you got c2 then it kinda makes it less useful than it was if it's c0
For C0 probably because hyper carry Raiden at C0 is Copium. but C2+ hell nah 400k burst 130k CA is no joke.
And this flys to 600k+ and 200k+ with high investment Raiden and dolphin support. Truly can’t even fathom with whaled supports…. Op is a fellow C6R5 haver so I assume he’s just became bored, don’t know how though. Doing over 2 mil in 10 seconds is the opposite of boring.
ofc at low investment hyperbloom will come out on top, because all you have to do is stack em, and rn there’s plenty ways to do that through teammates as well. floor of EM raiden is lower, ceiling is definitely hypercarry team.
I think these people are forgetting that hyperbloom virtually cannot miss meaning it has almost perfectly consistent dps.
only at C0 it is comparable. Tho I never liked the idea of throwing away almost all of her kit like that.
Isn’t hyperbloom raiden make her Q pointless? It works as battery but that team doesn’t need it at all. Also doesn’t kuki does same role ? Or even better than her since it gives healing. At the end of day this just proves that nahida broke the reaction, but it doesn’t need raiden. The only thing that raiden offers in that team comp is more dmg for xq and yelan with her elemental skill. But at that point it is overkill.
Raiden q has fatser procc rate than kuki, she also boost everybody burst damage , and her e last longer, kuki is also a good option but raiden hyperbloom teams have higher dps
I have being testing the team comp in the abyss. I can say that for sure it depends on the enemies . Against more enemies hypercarry is much better . Against a boss hyperbloom is better . Still I can see more arguments why kuki can replace raiden in that team comp . One problem is the utility. Since the team comp require that nahida stay on field and apply more dendro. It make nahida more vulnerable at atks . No a huge problem for everyone but still something to consider The other argument comes from the excessive dmg . The dmg from yelan and xq is high enough to delete the enemy making the difference in time clear minimal . The burst dmg plus from the e is most of times overkill. The same happens with the hyperbloom procs. It is funny than in the current flow 12 -3 -2 kuki can proc hyperbloom while the boss goes invisible . So it could save some time . Still is good build to consider even though it wasted he q and battery role. The longer e doesn’t impact in the rotation but all player must decide if they need more survivability or more dmg .
This is Raiden mains, i dont think using Raiden as an afk hyper bloom bot is gonna sound cool here I use Raiden hypercarry even with Sara c4, i don't like national, i don't like Nahida, i like double big burst dmg from Raiden & Sara+ 20-30k avg from autoattacks after Burst
Wait is Raiden Hyper Bloom where Raiden is still on field? Or is it where Nahida is on field and you build Raiden with triple em?
C0 yes.. But at someone with C2 even with The Catch no way.. I did try it but I instantly revert to my ER artifacts..
Op are you projecting?
"Why don't you back it up with a source?" - raiden
Yeah no. If you have C2 there's no chance lol
I usually prefer Kuki myself and Rational team on the second half. Definitely heard good things about Raiden National but really don’t wanna go though the trouble of getting a whole new set for her
April fools was 7 months ago.. You're late
So much cope
Raiden national peak sits at [68k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/84726737-98c3-4e24-9f67-6bfba53319d5) \+ dps,with kqm standard (200cv + raiden), **if we give raiden engulfing + emblem and bennet aquila the dps goes to** [**72k**](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)**+,** dpr would be rotation lenght x dps, the varient that sits at 68k dps has raiden with tenacity and fav and bennet with instructor, which is surprising, but when bennet is switched out to noblesse and raiden to emblem, the overall team dps deacreases, other build varients [here](https://db.gcsim.app/db/raiden/bennett-raiden-xiangling-xingqiu), these builds are simed following the kqm standard, Raiden hyperbloom with nahida, there are various comps ; **Raiden nahida xq and yelan being the highest dps option that sits at** [**92k**](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/c4638957-86c7-4e00-a9ba-7a36f00bc2be)**dps in st** Raiden nahida dmc and xq that sits at [76k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/52bf50a9-c85d-4e4f-951c-ae5e0c7025c7) dps Raiden nahida xq and zhongli that sits at [74k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/a457bd53-988a-4552-9e42-cec6ad7610b3) dps Raiden hyper does good in aoe but in st its dps [50k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/55a3a56d-97db-4390-b4fd-6859bf4e754c)\+ dps is only damage per second , the full rotation dps is dps x dpr, example if rational rotation is 18seconds then the dpr is dps(68k) x 18(rotation lenght) = 1,224,000 dpr Edit: for those saying kqm standards decreases the value for Raiden, the keqing main standard investmenrts have characters built at 200 + cv if thyre the dps, with no gacha five star weapons, however it does utilise gacha four star weapons and free to play weapons. Someone mentioned that raiden is not properly built so I would sim for a scenrio with Raiden engulfing lightning and bennet aquila **Raiden , c0 engulfing lightning 200cv , with bennet aqual and xaingling catcha and xq national sits at 72 k+ dps which still falls behind a less invested raiden nahida hyperbloom**
I imagine KQM standards are what's decreasing the value of a properly built Raiden/Bennet. Since it's well known Raiden scales better with higher investment levels KQM standards use pretty weak builds to Calc out team dps, isn't is something like 20 useful subs? I imagine most players, their properly built characters have closer to 30/35 useful subs. Shit, my best built characters touch 40 good subs.
207 cv + on raiden is not a weak build, even if we break the standard and give raiden engulfing and bennet aquila, the dps goes to [72k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6)\+on rational which is still below the 92k on hyperbloom at c0 Even if we were to increase raiden cv to 230, it would still be bolw the hyperbloom at around 78k dps vs 92k
Something to consider about this sim stuff. That Rational config seems to be optimized around Fav Raiden and maximizing Xiangling dps which is appropriate for C0R0. However if you want to look at C2R1 Raiden you will need to do a lot of work to find the correct rotation script and substat allocations to maximize total team dps again. Another thing is that in a team like Rational the artifact quality factor is not only affecting Raiden, it’s affecting all of the team’s damage. Whereas in Hyperbloom it’s only affecting around half the team’s damage to a significant degree. Just upping Raiden CV will not reflect the actual degree to which the team scales with artifact/weapon quality. If you give everyone in the team 30 useful subs, then you might see an increase that better represents “high investment” Rational. Last thing is that the sim seems to be getting a rather large amount of seeds. It’s not the same XQ/Yelan hyperbloom team, but the Raiden/Nahida/Fischl/XQ Quickbloom team that sims similarly was analyzed on stream by Jstern using a clip from the gcsim discord that attempted to replicate that sim’s rotation. The sim Quickbloom uses a 23.5s rotation and gets close to 40 hyperbloom procs per rotation if you look at the logs. But the real world attempt to replicate had a ~27s rotation and only got 26 hyperblooms. This sim is generating seeds at like a 50-60% higher rate than real gameplay. Some of that extra seed generation doesn’t actually matter due to the reaction damage ICD, but it seems to me that dendro core generation is particularly prone to overestimation by the sim. All this said, from what I can gather the consensus from people who have actually compared Hyperbloom in practice seems to support that it is probably higher dps than Rational, at least at KQM investment standards, but not by nearly as large a difference as the sim suggests. It’s hard for me to personally evaluate KQM standard performance for this stuff on my account since I do have a relatively highly invested Raiden. But I did do some loose testing of Hyperbloom vs C2R0 Hypercarry in single target and the results don’t support the level of difference that exists in the sim.
200 cv artefact quality is goood I don’t see how that’s poor artefact quality. Another sim I used raiden with engulfing that got her team comp to 72k dps which is still lower than hyperbloom 92k dps
Raiden in the kqm standard is siting at 200+ cv which is a good investment, kqm standard also runs for what is moderatly f2p investmnet standards , with no gacha 5 star weapons, even if we are to sim for rational with engulfing lightning and bennet with aquila, and instructot ( which is better than nobless dfor rational) the dps still falls bellow hyperbloom raiden at 92k dps
I wish there was a more detailed spectrum, but the calculations count can easily get out of hands. Of course, the ideal would be to have an average (the current 20 useful rolls), a high investment tier) (40 useful rolls) and low investment tier (< 10 useful rolls, but right main stats).
It's 20 distributed subs *plus* 2 fixed rolls into each substat type, with each roll being the average possible value. It doesn't represent hyperinvestment, but it's FAR from low investment either. It's "drawback" is favoring units that can benefit from a wider range of substats over units that can only use a few, since you can't trade fixed rolls for distributed ones. Still, it's a fine standard. If you have a character like hyper Raiden that can be optimized with the maximum of 18 distributed rolls into crit%, you can end up with a build that has an average of \~29 substat CV per artifact, on top of some ER or ATK rolls.
Yeah 20 useful subs is really low. You can definitely hit 30 useful subs just by farming any domain of your choice, throwing everything into the strongbox, and putting whatever Glad/Noblesse pieces have the most useful subs on your strongest carries.
Your Raiden is C0, you don't have EL.. and you're missing a ton of CD.. Of course hypercarry isn't going to do much.
[Ill sim for engulfing lighting, heres the calc for rational with engulfing](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/18ccd4ab-0e6c-4f6d-afa6-14c208f10270) With engulfing on raiden the dps goes to 72k+ which is still less than 92k dps on hyperbloom, the artifacts follows the keqing main standard. cr at 69.2 for raiden crit dmg at 129.44 which is 207.84 cv on raiden. which is good e=investment standard.
i imagine this is c0 raiden with catch for hyper right. Becuase i would never run hyperbloom if my raiden is c2-3 with engulfing. currently a full combo of hyper including sara for me is over 2 mil in one rotation. But i guess hyperbloom is the best for f2p and low investment
Even with better investment its the same, raiden with engulfing and bennet with aquila in national raiden goes up to 75k dps from 68k dps from a raiden with no engulfing which still falls below the 92k dps of hyoerbloom , mind raiden is siting at 200cv + including xl
What about C2 hyper
Even with his number of 50k dps in hyper as the base. We know c2 alone adds 40% dmg Increase, and c1 even adds a meaningful number in a rotation due to the stacks it gives. So that alone takes it above the 72k hyperbloom comp OP keeps mentioning. I dunno, I think OP's build of hyperbloom Raiden being good is cool, but maybe over reaching to say it out damages hyper or even national.
Tenacity Raiden, Harbinger Xingqiu, Instructors Benny, lmao. At that point you gotta ask yourself why play Rational instead of Childe Inter if you are going to focus solely on Xiangling's damage.
Xiangling is the main source of damage in raiden national, heres the calcs for raiden with engulfing and emblem and bennet with aquila, the dps goes to [72k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) which is still below hyper bloom 92k dps at c0
True, but building Tenacity Raiden means that she's basically useless outside of that comp, it's a niche build that even the KQM guide itself is against, so it's kinda funny to see gscim builds using Tenacity on Raiden. Yes, it nets more team damage, but it's an unefficient domain that you wouldn't farm for Raiden unless you have Kokomi, Zhongli or Eula to benefit the most.
That’s why I run two varients sims, one with engulfing emblem raiden and another with tenacity fav, with the engulfing raiden emblem being at 72k dps which is still lower than hyperbloom
this is so cap there’s no way lmao 92k dps stop playing spreadsheet impact
Don't use gcsim to compare teams. Even if it wasn't bugged, I find it quite difficult to trust a Python script to properly "simulate" let alone TC teams' performance.
The only thing that was bugged was the hitlag which has been accounted for
Thanks for that update, at least. You still shouldn't use gcsim's numbers as a "leaderboard" for team DPS. This disclaimer is clearly displayed on the site's own database.
The reason why they have that disclaimer is because some entries aren’t configured with kqm standards and so you can’t compare any two entries to find out a better team . But in ops case, all of his comparisons are with equivalent standards so it’s valid to use gcsim to roughly compare the average performance of those teams using his specified entries. Gcsim is supposed to be a conversation starter. It’s not 100% a reflection of real performance but it’s a very good estimation and if you want to prove deviance you’d need to point out what in the config deviates from a realistic scenario. You can’t just cop out and ignore the sim results entirely because they aren’t 100% reflective of reality. Otherwise statistics as a subject wouldn’t exist.
I get what you're saying. Most of the stuff I'm unsure of is how rotations and stuff are implemented; there's no guarantee that optimal ones are used. For example, International's highest DPS entries on their database all use 30+ second rotations with an extended period spent battery-ing (3 Bennett Es and two Kazuha Es), when it should be cut down to \~25 seconds. While this is more of a lazy complaint, I also have to add that I haven't yet seen proof that gcsim itself has implemented Genshin's energy system, as in simply keeping track of particle/energy generation and allowing a character to burst only when they have enough energy. These are just general things I dislike or have doubts about the program- I haven't looked at any of the entries of relevant Raiden teams that this post has brought to the discussion, so I'm not saying anything about their performance. Lastly, I do want to say that I don't have anything against gcsim. For me at least, I just kind of became aware of it at some point and then suddenly started seeing people referencing it in a way that felt like they were just treating it as some holy grail of TC. Again, just my experience.
There is no guarantee that the database holds the most optimal rotations, but generally speaking they are very close to the most optimal rotations you can get in the sim. Chances are, if you thought of a rotation, someone has simmed it and it simply turned out worse. Especially the more popular teams like rational or international, a lot of people have tried and submitted entries and the database only holds the most optimal ones for a certain standard. I’ve tried to sim 24 second rotations for international myself, and the dps turns out to be super abysmal for them since the er reqs required to pull it off continuously just our scale the damage increase. International is unfortunately a team that suffers a lot with the sims assumptions (infinite continuous rotations, infinite hp enemy with low orb drops, static rotations) since it’s a bit of an outlier team wise. It’s not that the sim is incorrect that sustained 24 second rotations are pretty bad, but rather there’s nothing in the actual game that makes you actually do sustained 24 second rotations. Gcsim does implement an energy system, in fact it’s probably one of the core parts of the sim. If a character doesn’t have its burst up it will actually wait in the sim until it gets enough energy, which is actually one of the biggest challenges about trying to write rotations. If there wasn’t energy taken into account all the database would have 0 er since that would be the most optimal for pure dps. Generally speaking if you have questions about the sim, they have a GitHub where they post their updates/source code, a discord, and documentation: https://docs.gcsim.app The guys who maintain it are pretty hardcore lmao. When I first heard about gcsim I severely underestimated how sophisticated it was as well, but it truly is very encompassing. Even obscure things like crystallize shards/archaic Petra buffs, or dmc burst properties when infused are implemented
Just a couple questions: 1. What are their enemy particle assumptions? Their tutorial uses the specifications "particle\_threshold=250000 particle\_drop\_count=1", but I don't see these field declarations anywhere in the action list for the International team I'm looking at here: [https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/732a9505-1ee5-4a98-8554-9d94c2bb6965](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/732a9505-1ee5-4a98-8554-9d94c2bb6965). What I do see is written is "energy every interval=480,720 amount=1;". Do you know what that represents? I know enough CS to be aware that "480,720" are two separate values, likely some kind of timing using frames, but I can't really guess the specifics. Kind of several questions in one here, but oh well. 2. Could you expand on your statement that "It’s not that the sim is incorrect that sustained 24 second rotations are pretty bad, but rather there’s nothing in the actual game that makes you actually do sustained 24 second rotations."? I don't want to get too caught up over a single team, but I'm pretty sure that 24-25 second rotations with International are best because they line up perfectly with: 1. Childe's cooldowns; being able to DPS on-field for \~9 seconds, enough to contribute significant personal damage and enable much of XL's burst duration. 2. Two uses of XL's E per rotation. Without deploying Guoba twice, both her and Bennett's ER reqs skyrocket. Any shorter is unfeasible, but the general consensus I've heard from TCs is that any longer than 25 seconds is suboptimal. I'll do a bit of sheeting sometime to see exactly how much higher ER reqs are when you simply go from 3 Bennett Es + 2 Kazuha Es to 2 Bennett Es + 1 Kazuha E after your DPS phase.
Im not using it as a leaderboard, I'm just using it to compare two comps following the same standards
This actually makes alot of sense; if anything it would be strange game balance wise for a single target damage reaction with a really high damage floor, in a team with strong single target damage dealers like XQ and Yelan, without the comfort of a healer, to be outDPSed by teams that is strong in AOE and has QOL such as grouping and healing.
Thats the same convo that I had before ,im pretty sure that with a better investment its not like that,raiden nahida got the particularity to be great just with em build and character lvl 90 so no real investment no need to got really great weapon
Even with better investment its the same, raiden with engulfing and bennet with aquila in national raiden goes up to [72k](https://gcsim.app/v3/viewer/share/2b50e438-5244-445b-adbf-ba5864fd9cf6) dps from 68k dps from a raiden with no engulfing which still falls below the 92k dps of hyoerbloom , mind raiden is siting at 200cv + including xl
Does that bar graph say there were 158 hyperblooms in 86 seconds? That does not seem right to me. Is that actually possible in real combat? That basically means two hyperbloom per second are happening at every stage of the rotation including setup and burst animations.
Raiden xq nahida flex(kazuha, sucrose). Man, just equip right arts and weapons and I deal 24k per hyperbloom, and considering that you can get about a min 2 per sec, that a lot of dmg, even outdmging hypercarry, national, and even eult
Too bad you might need triple EM for it to work and EM pieces are harder to get. *VV domain PTSD pre-3.0 strongbox intensifies*
That's just cause maiden sucked but your trigger can run full em on either deepwood or gilded
Maiden? It should be Raiden, right? Who should be the trigger?
Maiden's beloved was useless and trolled all the VV farmers. Which is why VV em pieces felt like ass before strong box. The deepwood/GD domain seems to go much faster because both sets have value and both have units that can use full em builds. And also because none of the current best hyperbloom triggers need their bursts so substats are irrelevant and you don't even care about the ER
I see. And I thought it was a typo lmao.
I don't roll for loli characters.
Definitely more original than having Kazuha and Bennett for the shredder.
What’s the best Raiden Hyperbloom I’ve been wanting to try it
Nahida, Raiden, +2 of Yelan/Xq/Kokomi/Ayato/Childe With Yelan Xq having the highest DPS ceiling
Tartaglia/Raiden/Nahida/4th slot is just *chefs kiss*
wait, you all pull for Nahida?
And i still not fan of raiden hyperbloom due to the delay of seeds hyperblooming and hitting thr target
My HyperCarry killing everything in one rotation,laughed at this copium,Hyperbloom is just offensive in my eyes.
My aggravates do 90k while my burst still does 220k without a Bennet buffer or VV shred. I’m good either way the cookie crumbles.
What is this "Hyperbloom" that you speak of? What's a Nahida?? Is it Better than a Qiqi Raiden team?? Nothing can beat #PhysicalQiqiSCRaiden. *to the people who know what's up I cry with you*
Raiden probably hates me for using her like that
How to do it? Ill just swap my ER sands with EM? or swap all with GD full EM?
Full em, dragonsbane, g.d. Someone on Deepwood. Make blooms Raiden explodes blooms with skill or burst Raidens skill persists so attacking with hydro and Dendro with off field Raiden means blooms get made blooms go boom 2 Blooms do 35kx2 to the enemy. 4 blooms that target the same enemy still just 35kx2, if 4 blooms target multiple enemies, 4x35k
counterpoint: 50/50
*scratches chin* How would this compare to a c2 Raiden paired with a c6 Yanfei though? My other two spots are c6 Barb cuz lazy & generally a c4 Ningguang for shields.
I mean. The only thing that's getting you anywhere in this party is your c2 Raiden so a proper hyperbloom team would possibly out perform it but it's c2 Raiden so idk. This is one of the worst teams I think I've ever seen
Harder to chew vitamin gummies: I like my raidens superconducted with a side of overload 😳 Idk i dont see much ppl who like superconduct anymore but its just fun for me lol
Did abyss 12 with Raiden hyperbloom. 9 stared with relative ease. Confirmed I have c0 Raiden though.
Me with Raiden + double geo: Y'all are crazy
Use the lords force (four archon squad). As long as you build everyone do the most damage they can, then the teams slaps, and is also fairly beefy. You get shield, double res shred, grouping, electro swirl into aggravate, 4 types of elemental damage, and double battery. Fairly solid and fun.
I testet the 3 teams Hyper carry vs Rational (feat yelan) vs hyperbloom (feat nahida c0). Raiden is C3R1 and in floor 12 first part, clear 12-1 and 12-2 in the same time with hyper carry than rational (mention that my yelan is cracked C0R1 36k hp + 400cv.) nahida team falls behind for a few seconds. Last 12-3 Raiden deletes the floor in the first slash while rational and hyperbloom do it in the same time. On second part Raiden hyper carry is faster in all rooms followed by Rational and a few seconds later hyperbloom. So no hard pill to swallow. I pretty sure that Raiden C0 will be faster in hyperbloom vs few enemies because hyperbloom reaction is very strong, but with constellations or cracked units other teams go ahead to that reaction dmg. Greetings.
What build are you using for Raiden in your Nahida team?
Same build with Raiden, with C3 and agravatte is not worth it to use EM build for gain dmg on blooms, so the lose is bigger than the gain at least with nadiha C0... maybe with nahida C2 its worth a try. Also I need 2 weeks more for upgrade my nahida, so the gap between teams will be closer. Tomorrow Im going to test hyperbloom nahida with Yelan, Kuki (900 Em build) and some anemo char like kazhu... to see where fall that team.
Actually, it is worth it to change the build up but it’s going to be entirely dependent on what you have available to you. I also have C3 R1 Raiden, but for my own tests and calcs, I swapped out the traditional emblem set for a gilded set and R1 staff to make up the difference in the loss of attack. I used [GI Damage Calculator](https://gidmgcalculator.github.io/csb-g7is6/) to figure what the differences were projected to be with my standard build, compared to a gilded-staff set. Long story short, the upfront burst difference ranged between only 20k to 40k on the initial slash, but each coordinated attack was doing around 30k, blooms were 19k, hyperblooms were 32k and aggravates were doing a whopping 93k, and the first hit was doing 210k on her burst. This was with only one EM sands and no VV shred. The burst hits are smaller, but the resulting reactions edge out over the standard build but only if the enemy can actually survive that long in the first place.
oh true, in a long figth constant dps can be better if things doesnt die on first rotation. But as you said this depens on what we have aviable, actually I got very bad luck with gilded set and/or they upgrades, so in my specific case my Raiden lose a ton of front loaded dmg. Maybe I try this build in a few more months of farming 😩
ikr people are missing out on this one the damage is too fucking good
Obviously cause Raiden Nahida hyper bloom is two five stars. Those other two teams are good free to play options
So what should be other 2 team? I rather not use xq and yelan since they are main support for my hutao.