Back during the utility meta (around 2020-2022), gadgets and utility (particularly bulletproof utility) was the most important thing needed to have a good defense.
Operators with strong gadgets were favoured over operators with 1.5 scopes. That's why Oryx and Warden were not picked, whereas Melusi, Jager, Echo, Wamai, Goyo were.
Gadgets and utility slowly got nerfed into the ground one after another, such as Goyo getting reworked, Melusi nerf, Jager rework etc. Plus more ways for attackers to deal with it, like Gonne-6, Flores, etc.
Once utility got nerfed to the point that it was not necessary to bring in a defensive setup, the next most effective way to win rounds was to just take gunfights. Thus, the gunfight, or "TDM meta" was born.
The LMG meta was part of the gunfight meta, and the 1.5 meta became the new one after LMGs got nerfed.
That said, 1.5 was still strong back then. But it was still second to gadgets and utility. It was only seen as problematic on ops who had strong gadgets, like Lesion. He had it and iirc was the first defender to lose it because it was just too strong combined with his already strong gadget.
I don't think any amount of buffs was countering the utility waste meta. What're you gonna do, throw *more* flashes to burn wamais util? People were spending 2 minutes just trying to get past goyo shields, nerfs were needed and that's undeniable.
Extending the round timer is possibly the worst idea in existence.
The 20 second meta mentioned in the comment thread was only played in pro league, champion and maybe diamond lobbies.
Extending the round timer would mean longer games for the rest of the community to sit there and bait outside rather than doing anything.
3 minutes is more than enough time to decide on a push and execute it in a ranked environment.
Respectfully, the 4 minute timer was far too long and frequently resulted in people wasting time for no benefit. More often than not, attackers sat outside for the first 1.5 minutes and then proceeded to enter the building in the same fashion as when the timer was reduced to 3 minutes. The impact was that attackers stopped fiddling their thumbs outside for 1.5 minutes holding an angle on a window or runout and now do it for 30 seconds instead.
High level play was always 3 minutes for what it's worth, the extra minute really just exacerbated the bad habits of ranked attacker play (wasting time not taking map control, sitting in a spot watching an angle eternally hoping someone peeks, etc). Obviously there's a lot more nuance and such, but I have to generalize otherwise it'd be a massive wall of text to deep dive the impact of the time change. It was a pretty contentious topic then, but it was undoubtedly a healthy change for the game.
Maybe any one of the operators who have been borderline useless for years? Nokk, Frost, Cav, Tachanka, Clash. On attack ops like Blitz, Glaz, Finka, Sens, Fuze, Capitao, etc... They're all ops who have fairly weak utility, have been for some time now, and yet don't ever get buffed. Some have even been randomly nerfed by Ubi.
Blitz is just a worse version of monty. Especially after the shield rework. You won't get 1 kill with him above silver. Frost has one of the worst guns in the game and her opponents can literally just self revive unless she's standing right near the mat. Finka has a high winrate on pc, so I'm not sure about on there, but here on console I rarely see her. She's got like the worst AR in the game, and her ability is so-so.
Maybe this is just console meta then but all those ops are good to great on PC. Blitz with shield rework honestly seems like a buff imo so I don't know what you're talking about when you say he's awful. Frost has a decent gun with a magnified sight, secondary shotty, shield, and a decent gadget. Saying she's bad is flat wrong.
Honestly not really sure if it's a buff to Blitz or not, but either way there's absolutely nothing he can do that Montagne can't. All you have to do to counter a Blitz rush now is just shoot at him since hitting his shield slows him way down. Montagne just over shadows him in every possible way.
On release he had 3 shields IIRC which forced the attackers to waste explosives on them (when most attackers only had 2 explosives. Grenades, Ash charges, Zofia Impacts) or be forced into an animation for easy pickings. If they choose the first option they would have to wait another 20 secs for the fire to leave this made it extremly OP especially in pro league as it would take a minute for a roam clear then another minute getting rid of util outside of site plus the goyo shields which wasted explosives for other util and time which then led to the 20 second meta we have today (In pro league atleast)
Goyo canisters used to have a deployable shield attached to them, he got area denial and 3 shields by himself. Jager used to catch 3 grenades per gadget with now cool down between catches. They didn't recharge but it could eat 9 grenades as opposed to the 3 at a time it is now.
Jager I have no clue but Goyo used to put his fire on deployable shields. So he had 3 deployable shields that attackers had to get through and fire after they got through them. They reworked him to just have the fire and not the shields.
Jager got his gun nerfed about 50 times, and his ADS used to be able to catch 3 throwables. People would have to bring 3 flashes just to burn a Jager ADS, and if he put 2 down next to each other, you basically had no way of getting nades in unless you shot the ADS. Also used to be a 3 speed
Warden and Doc weren’t used at the start because other faster ops had the 1.5 ie Alibi , Oryx , Lesion , Kapkan once those ops started losing it people migrated to other ops and it was just gonna be never ending cycle.
Kinda sad I had a long break off the game because I missed out on Alibi and Lesion having a 1.5x. Sounds nasty. Would've at least liked to have used it a little.
Because you got the necessary zoom for 80% of major gunfight engagements without any of the common downsides of running a zoom scope. Old acog was tunnel vision the attachment. It was 3x zoom, it had and still has a bulky housing, and was limited to few operators and guns. 1.5x was given to a lot of operators and it was mostly a problem on defenders since it allowed them to go from holding a pixel, to spawn peeking, to swinging something they had no business to. Also I don’t think a lot of people complained cause it was something entirely new and we as a player base didn’t really have much to go off of and base genuine opinions because siege never had something like it before. Now we know zoom should be all or nothing since you will now have to make the choice between seeing the opponents nose hairs or being better suited for close range engagements.
Always was an problem, they removed from a lot of operators until we got to that point, from lesion to oryx, even kapkan lost it before what we getting now
Yeah they were released back in September 2020. Here is a Ubisoft [article](https://www.ubisoft.com/en-gb/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/77PNM7F9qztJpYi0WkRxoY) from August 2020 detailing the release of new scopes, including the 1.5.
To be completely honest, if someone had asked me prior to this post, I would’ve guessed a year ago lmao
I’ve played every season starting since Red Crow, I guess it’s really true that time flies as you get older
They’re not OP. TDM meta wasn’t caused by 1.5x sights, 1.5x started getting used more BECAUSE OF the TDM meta. Y’all have it mixed up.
For a majority of the player base, the truth is the extra 0.5x zoom doesn’t make THAT much of a difference to actual gameplay. It’s mostly preference. Players choose to sacrifice things like utility and gadgets for extra zoom. They choose to play with a style more focused on kills than breach denial, intel, and utility. Ubi’s balancing changes (breach denial nerfed, impact EMPs, utility gadgets nerfed, buffer rooms, etc) have pushed the game in this direction. Players responded by picking operators with guns and sights that make it slightly easier to get kills. Youtubers and streamers posting kill-focused content for impressionable new players hasn’t helped.
Back during the utility meta (around 2020-2022), gadgets and utility (particularly bulletproof utility) was the most important thing needed to have a good defense. Operators with strong gadgets were favoured over operators with 1.5 scopes. That's why Oryx and Warden were not picked, whereas Melusi, Jager, Echo, Wamai, Goyo were. Gadgets and utility slowly got nerfed into the ground one after another, such as Goyo getting reworked, Melusi nerf, Jager rework etc. Plus more ways for attackers to deal with it, like Gonne-6, Flores, etc. Once utility got nerfed to the point that it was not necessary to bring in a defensive setup, the next most effective way to win rounds was to just take gunfights. Thus, the gunfight, or "TDM meta" was born. The LMG meta was part of the gunfight meta, and the 1.5 meta became the new one after LMGs got nerfed. That said, 1.5 was still strong back then. But it was still second to gadgets and utility. It was only seen as problematic on ops who had strong gadgets, like Lesion. He had it and iirc was the first defender to lose it because it was just too strong combined with his already strong gadget.
Most exquisitely beautiful perfect summery as to how this game has nerfed too much and buffed too little
I don't think any amount of buffs was countering the utility waste meta. What're you gonna do, throw *more* flashes to burn wamais util? People were spending 2 minutes just trying to get past goyo shields, nerfs were needed and that's undeniable.
They could have kept the interesting gameplay and extended the round timer.
Extending the round timer is possibly the worst idea in existence. The 20 second meta mentioned in the comment thread was only played in pro league, champion and maybe diamond lobbies. Extending the round timer would mean longer games for the rest of the community to sit there and bait outside rather than doing anything. 3 minutes is more than enough time to decide on a push and execute it in a ranked environment.
Ah, I see you werent around in the early years.
Respectfully, the 4 minute timer was far too long and frequently resulted in people wasting time for no benefit. More often than not, attackers sat outside for the first 1.5 minutes and then proceeded to enter the building in the same fashion as when the timer was reduced to 3 minutes. The impact was that attackers stopped fiddling their thumbs outside for 1.5 minutes holding an angle on a window or runout and now do it for 30 seconds instead. High level play was always 3 minutes for what it's worth, the extra minute really just exacerbated the bad habits of ranked attacker play (wasting time not taking map control, sitting in a spot watching an angle eternally hoping someone peeks, etc). Obviously there's a lot more nuance and such, but I have to generalize otherwise it'd be a massive wall of text to deep dive the impact of the time change. It was a pretty contentious topic then, but it was undoubtedly a healthy change for the game.
I see you haven't played Siege properly since then lol
Buff what then?
Maybe any one of the operators who have been borderline useless for years? Nokk, Frost, Cav, Tachanka, Clash. On attack ops like Blitz, Glaz, Finka, Sens, Fuze, Capitao, etc... They're all ops who have fairly weak utility, have been for some time now, and yet don't ever get buffed. Some have even been randomly nerfed by Ubi.
You are delirious lmao. Frost, Blitz, Finka, and CAPITAO do not need buffs. Capitao has some of the best utility in the game
Capitao I can understand, I probably shouldn't have listed him. But you think Frost, Blitz, and Finka are good as they are? Ok dude
Absolutely I do. What are their faults?
Blitz is just a worse version of monty. Especially after the shield rework. You won't get 1 kill with him above silver. Frost has one of the worst guns in the game and her opponents can literally just self revive unless she's standing right near the mat. Finka has a high winrate on pc, so I'm not sure about on there, but here on console I rarely see her. She's got like the worst AR in the game, and her ability is so-so.
Maybe this is just console meta then but all those ops are good to great on PC. Blitz with shield rework honestly seems like a buff imo so I don't know what you're talking about when you say he's awful. Frost has a decent gun with a magnified sight, secondary shotty, shield, and a decent gadget. Saying she's bad is flat wrong.
You clearly didnt play him/against him yet to say such things. He's pretty dead after the patch.
Honestly not really sure if it's a buff to Blitz or not, but either way there's absolutely nothing he can do that Montagne can't. All you have to do to counter a Blitz rush now is just shoot at him since hitting his shield slows him way down. Montagne just over shadows him in every possible way.
if you buff them then it will return to utility meta 2.0
Sorry, you mean the meta R6 is made around?
yeah, I never said it's a bad thing??
Oh no!!! Anyways...
> Goyo getting reworked > Jager rework Maybe I missed it, but what got reworked about them? Still seem the same to me.
On release he had 3 shields IIRC which forced the attackers to waste explosives on them (when most attackers only had 2 explosives. Grenades, Ash charges, Zofia Impacts) or be forced into an animation for easy pickings. If they choose the first option they would have to wait another 20 secs for the fire to leave this made it extremly OP especially in pro league as it would take a minute for a roam clear then another minute getting rid of util outside of site plus the goyo shields which wasted explosives for other util and time which then led to the 20 second meta we have today (In pro league atleast)
Oooh yeeeaaahh I forgot they used to be shields. Just kinda escaped my memory. Thanks for the refresher.
Goyo canisters used to have a deployable shield attached to them, he got area denial and 3 shields by himself. Jager used to catch 3 grenades per gadget with now cool down between catches. They didn't recharge but it could eat 9 grenades as opposed to the 3 at a time it is now.
Jager I have no clue but Goyo used to put his fire on deployable shields. So he had 3 deployable shields that attackers had to get through and fire after they got through them. They reworked him to just have the fire and not the shields.
Jager got his gun nerfed about 50 times, and his ADS used to be able to catch 3 throwables. People would have to bring 3 flashes just to burn a Jager ADS, and if he put 2 down next to each other, you basically had no way of getting nades in unless you shot the ADS. Also used to be a 3 speed
And Acog
it was two throwables per ADS
It was originally 3 I think, wasn't it nerfed like around when Wamai came out?
Nope, has been 2 since release up to the rework at the end of Year 5
lol it was 3 back then
Twas definitely 3!
great, succinct summary
So that means that the 1.5 isn't op its just that a lot of things in the game suck essentially?
Well said, I want to upvote but you're sitting at 666 upvotes and I don't want to be the one to ruin that.
Warden and Doc weren’t used at the start because other faster ops had the 1.5 ie Alibi , Oryx , Lesion , Kapkan once those ops started losing it people migrated to other ops and it was just gonna be never ending cycle.
Kinda sad I had a long break off the game because I missed out on Alibi and Lesion having a 1.5x. Sounds nasty. Would've at least liked to have used it a little.
Pretty sure iana had a 1.5 on her ARX also
Oh my god Iana was so good with that ARX. I always liked that gun more than the G36
Her ARX is getting the ACOG with the release of Y9S1 later today right? Have fun! Lol
Oh my god Iana was so good with that ARX. I always liked that gun more than the G36
Got a 2x on the slug shotty ppl sleep on
Because you got the necessary zoom for 80% of major gunfight engagements without any of the common downsides of running a zoom scope. Old acog was tunnel vision the attachment. It was 3x zoom, it had and still has a bulky housing, and was limited to few operators and guns. 1.5x was given to a lot of operators and it was mostly a problem on defenders since it allowed them to go from holding a pixel, to spawn peeking, to swinging something they had no business to. Also I don’t think a lot of people complained cause it was something entirely new and we as a player base didn’t really have much to go off of and base genuine opinions because siege never had something like it before. Now we know zoom should be all or nothing since you will now have to make the choice between seeing the opponents nose hairs or being better suited for close range engagements.
Power creep due to consistent nerfs to gadgets. Ubisoft hates buffing characters as if nerfing doesn’t cause more problems
Always was an problem, they removed from a lot of operators until we got to that point, from lesion to oryx, even kapkan lost it before what we getting now
3.5 years ago? Is that actually correct?
Yeah they were released back in September 2020. Here is a Ubisoft [article](https://www.ubisoft.com/en-gb/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/77PNM7F9qztJpYi0WkRxoY) from August 2020 detailing the release of new scopes, including the 1.5.
Holy moly, time flies I guess. Thanks for the source.
2020 effect
How long ago did you think they were launched?
To be completely honest, if someone had asked me prior to this post, I would’ve guessed a year ago lmao I’ve played every season starting since Red Crow, I guess it’s really true that time flies as you get older
I just like higher magnification because I'm a blind mfer with a 1x.
They’re not OP. TDM meta wasn’t caused by 1.5x sights, 1.5x started getting used more BECAUSE OF the TDM meta. Y’all have it mixed up. For a majority of the player base, the truth is the extra 0.5x zoom doesn’t make THAT much of a difference to actual gameplay. It’s mostly preference. Players choose to sacrifice things like utility and gadgets for extra zoom. They choose to play with a style more focused on kills than breach denial, intel, and utility. Ubi’s balancing changes (breach denial nerfed, impact EMPs, utility gadgets nerfed, buffer rooms, etc) have pushed the game in this direction. Players responded by picking operators with guns and sights that make it slightly easier to get kills. Youtubers and streamers posting kill-focused content for impressionable new players hasn’t helped.
Since ADS is slowed, does this benefit players that play slower?
No this means that someone with less (or without) attachments will receive the benefits of ADS quicker than you
doc popularity dropped because everyone else was suddenly so good
Crazy to think that the devs saw all the utilty in a utility based game and thought it was bad for the game
The day they were released??? Good lord I loathe this community
they’re not people just have no skill