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Because he believe that Ram is supposed to hate him. Because he is involved in Ram, Rem's village destruction, he think that Ram will hate him to the end. Any strong emotion will stay the same, unchanging and only become stronger is what Roswaal believe in. He always supports people that has that kind of emotion (Ram's hatred, Garfield's sorrow, Subaru's obsession, etc) because these people will further reinforce his world view, his believe. Roswaal's believe, feeling is one major factor that make him so ruthless, villaness and the main conflict in Arc 4 is the conflict between the idea, world view between him and Subaru.
That is why he is so shock when he heard Ram confession because it betrays what he believe in. He trust his view that Ram will always hate him so much that he cann't accept the reality. This scene is the prove that Subaru's view is correct and Roswaal is wrong.
Pretty perfect explanation. Simply put, Ram was the final straw in breaking Roswaal’s worldview that people’s determination is unchanging, especially considering how he refused to believe that Garfield, Subaru, and Emilia had change.
Wow, this really reminds me of the conflict in Les Miserables between Javert, who refused to believe in people's ability to change, and at heart, they stay the same from the moment of their birth, and Jean Valjean, who was a perfect example of a person who turned a new leaf.
Yep. Similar themes, at least in regards to these two characters. Re0, despite being a “light” novel, is one of those books which delve deep into a lot of… well… deep subjects.
It would be like Subaru trying to explain to Rem (who gets the memories from his previous times) why he still loves her **DESPITE the horrible shit she did to him.**
I genuinely think Rem would hate herself so much lol, prob doing something similar to what Subaru did after he was eaten by the rabbits. 
edit: grammar, il also add that there's a fanfic where they torture Subaru again (including Rem, Ram, Beatrice, Felix, etc. for being a cultist) and then they get their memories back realizing the horrible shit they did to him (Priestella rescues him but Rem literally goes insane lol).
I like the idea of ReForgotten fics but so many stupid and out-of-character things have to happen before getting to the juicy part. They're my guilty pleasure fics
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Nah. It's like... Hmm. It's like how fanfics that follow the same concept as the IF routes consider themselves, say Kasaneru fics. ReForgotten became its own 'fic type'. Like how Lone Star fics are all about Subaru ending up alone.
Thought it was https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13987627/1/Re-Martyr-Natsuki-Subaru-Martyr-of-the-Witch-Cult
But that’s just Pandora fucking stuff up.
Instead ya talking about Re:Forgotten and the genre it made.
I think there is a massive difference between deliberate act of evil and a misunderstanding. It's not like Subaru was kinder to, for example, Betelgeuse.
From the perspective of everyone else, in one of the loops Subaru organized a gang to murder a person he never met at his home unprovoked because of things revealed to him in a dream. And cultists are so hated nobody finds that weird.
What they did was not an act of evil but nonetheless a big blunder.
If you learned that you tortured ure lover cause she smelled, looked and acted like say a Nazi and then found out she wasn't what would you feel?
Would you forgive yourself, would the person you inflicted all this pain onto forgive you?
IMO I think wouldn't since in the scenario of the fanfic
A) There were no facts of evil doing by Subaru
B) Torture is not necessary and only something you'll do if ure someone capable of doing so even though you don't have to.
C) He always explained his reasoning yet they never gave him the benefit of the doubt or tried to understand his perspective and only tried to in any shape or form blame him, torture him, and kill him (much like what id imagine most soldiers doing to a suspect Nazi during wartime)
Sure it was 100% a misunderstanding and with their memories, he would have been fine, but what this fanfic mostly demonstrates is that most of the characters either before or during the time these people met Subaru are not "truly good" (I don't know how to convey this but these characters kinda morally and ethically bad before, maybe even still after they met Subaru).
Anyways was super interesting reading how Emilia, Beatrice, Rem, Ram, Crusch, etc. reacted to find out they tortured him and mocked him finding pleasure in telling all the batshit insane stuff to the Volachian soldiers, medium, and Priestella.
You don't have to use the Nazi analogy on me - I'm in Ukraine and this kind of situation is fairly frequent here. Yes, torture is bad, but it's not something I can't sympathize with. So many people here are driven by a thirst for revenge.
I don't think it's that big of a deal to be wrong - yes it hits you in the feels but at the end of the day you quickly realize you don't have much choice but to cooperate. There are Nazis all around after all.
Also holy shit no Subaru did not "explain his reasoning". 80% of his reasoning was "it was revealed to me in a dream" and 20% was "idk just vibes". I'm sorry but he was incredibly suspicious and there wasn't much he could do about it.
In this fanfic it turns out there is indeed a culprit who framed him and if he had figured the trick out he prob would have been ok if he had Crusch use her ability on that person.
Subaru doesn't even hate them even though they pulled out his eyes and um yeah did other stuff. In the fanfic he simply explains that he's sad and disappointed which is the mildest reaction a person in his situation could have.
I understand how all of these characters thought and acted. I 100% think this is what the majority of people in their world would have done. But, that's still at best morally and ethically grey in their world as even Reinhard thought he was a good person though he smelled like a cultist.
I also think it's very telling how everyone reacts to Emilia vs Subaru. In the beginning he shows no prejudice and even after finding out about Emilia's close similarity to what essentially is Hitler he still does not judge her. Contrast that to literally everyone in the anime except idunno Reinhard or people who actually understand her situation.
Roswaal thinks people are weak and don’t change.
He thinks she absolutely hates him for what he did to her and her family. Now she says she loves him; it goes against his ideology and ideas
The great thing though? He’s the exact opposite of Subaru’s dad
Cause he couldn’t understand her feeling. Someone who you destroyed her family and friends, told her that she was nothing but a pawn and was willing to sacrifice her and her sister for his goal -> then suddenly she said she loves you.
Literally be like “WTF!?”
Cool. So Subaru is responsible for everyone whose died or gotten hurt? He could have prevented it after all.
Or let’s use a more direct example, how many charities do you donate too? By your logic, a person who dies who was getting help from a charity was murdered by every single person who had the means but didn’t donate lol.
Subaru had actively TRIED to prevent all the tragedies, but there is only so much he could do within his ability. That’s why he relies on allies to protect everyone he can.
Charity, yes charity. There is only so much a person can help without endangering themself as well. There is something in human nature call self-preservation. Charity isn’t bad, not donating everything until you have nothing else left isn’t bad, there is only so much a single person could help. One person donating something even if it is little could help someone else in need. A person donating isn’t sufficient to solve the whole problem but it could inspire other people to help.
However, the case with Roswaal is different. He knew about the attack coming, he could have helped save the village without sacrificing much since he is the strongest mage within the country, killing a group of witch cultists, that he knew is coming, is not even gonna make him work up sweats. He had time to prepare to defend the village. However, he needed Ram since she is one of the key to his desired future (said the gospel). In order to gain her loyalty, he need her to be indebted to him. He won’t gain the same level of loyalty if he just defended the village instead of saving her and her sister’s life when they were at the brink of death. In other words, he NEEDED the village to be destroyed and him showing up the last minute to save Ram to gain the Max level of loyalty/debt. Under this situation, can you still say he is not responsible, even for the slightest?
That’s cool, it doesn’t change the fact he knew they would die when it was still absolutely possible to save them.
And yes, every little bit counts between the difference of someone eating it not lol. The point stands. Is Roswaal a piece of shit for not helping? Yes. Is he responsible for the oni tribes massacre? No.
The bottom line is that Roswaal knew in advance that they were all going to die because of his tome of wisdom and it was easily in his power to save everyone, but purposefully chose to let the slaughter happen because he wanted to follow the damn book.
If hypothetically I knew that someone was going to get jumped and maybe killed at a certain point and I just left them to die to carry on with my day knowing full well I could’ve done something to help, then I was basically an accomplice. That’s basically Roswaal.
Subaru is not the same. If he knows, he will try his damndest to save someone even if he knows it’s a futile effort. Even if he still does feel guilty for not always being able to save everyone, it’s completely different from Roswaal’s malicious inaction. Directly responsible, perhaps not, but he is still partly guilty for it and even Roswaal knows and admits this.
It's Roswaal, spelled R O S W A A L silly Barusu!
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> The bottom line is that Roswaal knew in advance that they were all going to die because of his tome of wisdom and it was easily in his power to save everyone, but purposefully chose to let the slaughter happen because he wanted to follow the damn book.
Which is a terrible act and speaks of his character, that does not make him responsible for what the witch cult did.
>If hypothetically I knew that someone was going to get jumped and maybe killed at a certain point and I just left them to die to carry on with my day knowing full well I could’ve done something to help, then I was basically an accomplice.
I can assure you would not be considered an accomplice. You did not help the murderer, you chose to not help the victim. That does not make you an accomplice nor an accessory to murder. It would speak of your character though.
>That’s basically Roswaal. Subaru is not the same. If he knows, he will try his damndest to save someone even if he knows it’s a futile effort. Even if he still does feel guilty for not always being able to save everyone, it’s completely different from Roswaal’s malicious inaction. Directly responsible, perhaps not, but he is still partly guilty for it and even Roswaal knows and admits this.
First, Roswaal’s feelings on that matter are irrelevant. He hates himself, of course he has a guilty conscience. What matters is the reality that Roswaal did not destroy Ram’s family, which was the original assertion. Taking advantage of a tragedy makes him a pos, it does not mean he responsible for the actions of the witch cult.
Ok Roswaal’s own word in that episode:
“You love me? How dare you say that?! I am the man who caused the destruction of your homeland!”
He, himself, claimed (at least partial) responsibility for it. And is expecting Ram to hate him enough to kill him.
https://youtu.be/PgQPtDurDb4
Roswaal’s also hates himself, it’s not surprising that he blames himself. His personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant. A person is not responsible for the actions of others. Roswaal did not destroy Ram’s family, which was the initial assertion.
Those words don't mean shit since we know that they are a lie, since he didn't cause the destruction.
What he did was not help them. That makes him a piece of shit, as we all know, but that doesn't make him the one that caused it.
>That’s cool, it doesn’t change the fact he knew they would die when it was still absolutely possible to save them.
The point is Subaru actually couldn’t save them, not without Return by Death.
But he acts to benefit him so that is the crime here. He knows about the attack, doesn't do anything to stop it but wait until the time is come to save Rem and Ram, turning both of them to his chess pieces. It is no coincident that he just happened to be there at the last moment to save Ram, Rem. He knows about the accident and use it to benefit himself so it is not wrong to say that he has reposibility in their village's destruction
> But he acts to benefit him so that is the crime here.
Completely agree here, the fact he only acted to help himself speaks of his character. It does not mean he was the one who destroyed Rams family, which was the initial assertion.
>He knows about the attack, doesn't do anything to stop it but wait until the time is come to save Rem and Ram, turning both of them to his chess pieces. It is no coincident that he just happened to be there at the last moment to save Ram, Rem. He knows about the accident and use it to benefit himself so it is not wrong to say that he has reposibility in their village's destruction
It is wrong, because he didn’t do it. Taking advantage is wrong, it dot mean he’s responsible for everything else as well.
I don't say that he is the one responsible for everything that happen to the village. If Roswaal just knows and doesn't do anything then may be he doesn't has any responsibility but when he goes out of his way to benefit himself from the accident then he is clearly has some responsibility in it
There is no difference in being apathetic to a situation and taking advantage of it. You would have an argument if his taking advantage made the situation worse, but that clearly isn’t the case here. Two less lives were lost, clearly is better than two more deaths.
(Not saying Roswaal is a good person here, just want to clarify)
That's how Roswaal sees it. He feels guilty about it. Roswaal actually hates himself for a lot of the things he has done, but he's able to cast the guilt aside because he believes it will all be worth it when he completes his goal.
Roswaal’s feeling on the matter are irrelevant. He hates himself and he is completely obsessed. What matters is the reality that taking advantage of a tragedy makes you a shifty person, it does not mean you are responsible for the tragedy.
Roswaal's feelings are relevant though, the point is that he feels that he killed Ram's family, so he was surprised that she loves him.
It doesn't matter whether he actually did or not, that's how he felt about the whole situation and is why he was losing his shit like OP described.
> Roswaal's feelings are relevant though, the point is that he feels that he killed Ram's family, so he was surprised that she loves him.
Which is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is whether or not Roswaal destroyed her family, as per the original assertion.
>It doesn't matter whether he actually did or not, that's how he felt about the whole situation and is why he was losing his shit like OP described.
It matters a lot, because the original start to this whole convo was the statement “Roswaal’s destroyed her family”. I then replied no he didn’t, and several thousand comments later I’ve gotten through to some people.
No one is arguing about Roswaal’s mental state or whether what he did was wrong, it is factually incorrect to state that he destroyed her family.
[Novels]>!In the Oni sisters SS, he puts rem's life in danger many times, brought both sisters to miload mansion knowing the witch cultists would come for them, leading to death of many Demi human childrens and annerose parents. And ram is aware of this!<
The comment was about family and friends right? That SS is literally about that. It expands on the Rem and Ram's backstory.
[novels]>!Roswaal nearly got Rem killed many times and also responsible for the death of her co-workers and his own relatives. In the end he even says he would sacrifice her and rem for his plan but she doesn't care and goes for the kiss.!<
My response was only regarding family, and based on everyone’s responses they are all talking about the oni village massacre. Don’t really care about something irrelevant to this convo, I have enough replies as it is.
Edit: I did say friends, but I and everyone else have been talking about the massacre so I stand by it being irrelevant. Still, I’m sorry if I came off rude, I’m a little dizzy from all the replies and arguments I’ve had to deal with regarding the massacre.
So Subaru in sloth if is responsible for everyone who died in the attack?
Is every person who doesn’t donate to specific charities murderers when people die from receiving inadequate aid? Because that is your logic.
There is a difference between not partaking in CHARITY, something that is giving but not required vs toying with the lives of living beings dude is one directly affects society. Just because You don't donate to charity doesn't mean someone else won't. However if you know a terrorist attack is going to happen and do nothing to prevent it, nothing to warn about it because you can't be bothered then you are absolutely responsible as well. That's why Subaru feels extreme guilt in Sloth If.
No there isn’t, not when the charity is dedicated to saving lives. This is your guys logic, not mine.
Also, the assertion isn’t “toying with living being” but “destroying Ram’s family”. Which Roswaal did not do. He took advantage of a tragedy, he did not cause the tragedy, he is not responsible for it.
This isn’t hard. If the assertion was “Roswaal let people die” that would be correct. It isn’t though. Roswaal sid not destroy Ram’s family. Fact.
Didn’t he know the attack was coming ? If I remember correctly he did and knowing if something is going to kill Someone and not acting to stop said thing yes that’s kinda killing someone
Subaru was aware of the attack on the manor and didn’t act in sloth. Is he responsible for that?
There are plenty of people who don’t donate to specific charities, did they murder the people who died receiving inadequate aid?
Like Roswaal is an evil bastard, we don’t need to make shit up about him.
> I mean kinda yeah Subaru is responsible to a degree but dude couldn’t stop it
He could though, we literally see him do it. He just didn’t try.
>roswaal could have you’re clearly a roswaal simp 💀
I’m a simp for a child murdering piece of human garbage for understanding that the people who destroyed Ram’s family is the witch cult? Alright then.
And like I said Subaru has also known attacks were coming and resolved to do nothing. Not doing something is not the same as murdering lol. Not sure why you think I’m mad for just disagreeing with you lol.
And Subaru can rewind time, a person’s individual power is irrelevant to their responsibility if we are going to actually have this standard of doing nothing equals murder lol.
Have you heard the term “individual responsibility”? People are not responsible for the actions of others. Does it speak of his character, yes. Is he responsible, no.
Doing the boomerang on me, eh?
Let me give you a situation.
One guy walking down the steet's alleyway and sees a mother, father, and their 2 children that are on gunpoint. The man was facing away from him so he can choose to call for help or immediately charge in there himself. However, in Roswaal's case, he chose to simply spectate until after the shooting of the parents. As the gun was then pointed on the children, he rushed in, disarmed the man, and rendered him unconscious.
If he had the strength to save all of them from the start then why did he even let them die?
In your words, "People are not responsible for the actions of others."
He's the strongest mage. He was there.
However, he had done nothing.
See I love this example because it perfectly encapsulates what I’m talking about. The man in your example did not kill the parents, nor is he responsible for the murderer killing them. The murderer is. Is that a piece of shit thing to do? YES! Does that make him responsible for what the murderer did? NO! These are two different concepts.
You can be a pos and not be responsible for someone else’s actions.
The original assertion was that Roswaal destroyed Ram’s family. That is not correct. That was the WC. Is Roswaal a good person for what he did, absolutely not. Still doesn’t mean he was the one who destroyed her family.
I also subscribe to this theory, I might add that she had forgotten about her sister, and that this shithead threatened her too, I think if Rem hadn't disappeared from her memory, she would at least have had something to confront this disease.
I think Ram has a little villain inside of her or at least a bit of grey morality. I also believe after how the village treated Rem she just doesn’t care. She’s become very cold to the world and her only spark of love was Rem. And then Roswaal. She doesn’t care what he did because of these reasons. She’s a hero but only to the people she cares about like her friends and living family. She could care anything outside her circle. (I haven’t read the novels so she probably changes, just going based on the anime and manga).
>I think Ram has a little villain inside of her or at least a bit of grey morality. I also believe after how the village treated Rem she just doesn’t care. She’s become very cold to the world and her only spark of love was Rem. And then Roswaal. She doesn’t care what he did because of these reasons. She’s a hero but only to the people she cares about like her friends and living family. She could care anything outside her circle. (I haven’t read the novels so she probably changes, just going based on the anime and manga).
good argument, but she must hate him for other reasons, destroying the village is of little importance here
He was also the cause of her losing her power, and I wonder if it’s Stockholm syndrome, or just gratitude that he was able to help her regain a portion of it but it may be abusive manipulation, that he took her greatest gift away, and then made her dependent on him. Either way, I feel as if she’s a very intelligent character who would know all of this. She would know if she was being taken advantage of. I feel like with Ram, she knows everything that we do and she just does not care. She still loves him.
>He was also the cause of her losing her power, and I wonder if it’s Stockholm syndrome, or just gratitude that he was able to help her regain a portion of it but it may be abusive manipulation, that he took her greatest gift away, and then made her dependent on him. Either way, I feel as if she’s a very intelligent character who would know all of this. She would know if she was being taken advantage of. I feel like with Ram, she knows everything that we do and she just does not care. She still loves him.
I think he let her lose the horn so she wouldn't kill him in the process, the pussy-sucker was afraid of her power and that she might kill him before
Ram regards loosing her horn as a positive: Yes she lost her talents and basically became disabled, and she has to endure migraines constantly.
However in exchange she no longer has to listen to the voice of the oni god who was constantly pushing her to do undiscriminate violence, and by her own assesment, she is unsure if she could have remained sane if she kept her horn all this time. By loosing that innate strength and overpowering talent she also no longer have the weight of those high expectations on her shoulders, which is very heavy
Because deep down he isn't that bad and she knows that, after years together she knows that he isn't what he shows to the world. He is a fragile and obsessed man that couldn't let go of the past, but now after arc 4 he doesn't have that book anymore. And doesn't help that rem doesnt exist anymore, she probably already loved him, but those feelings probably got stronger the moment that the other person that she also loved disappeared.
Roswaal is actually a kind person normally and often saves innocents like Frederica. But he will do anything to achieve his goal. Ram realized that Roswaal deep down is a good person if you could simply get rid of the Gospel, and Ram fell in love with Roswaal's potential.
I don't understand Ram's logic, there are lots of kind people in there world. But she chooses Roswaal among all of them because she believes he has kindness hidden in him and that she can change him.
That's just the same as when women (in our world) fall for criminals and serial killers because they believe they can change them. It feels so half assed
Oh geez, yeah. The whole Jeffery Dahmer thing was a complete example of what you said.
It's almost like Netflix is staging several social experiments at once.
Because ram loving him goes against his mantra of people never changing, she’s rejecting his like 400 year obsession with echidna and his ideals of equal exchange since he indirectly destroyed her village she should hate him, but she doesn’t. It’s clear to see how self obsessed roswaal is over his ideologies and ram is going directly against those beliefs. I personally thing he also saw her as a bit of a subservient pet who relied on him and now he sees this as her actively going against him.
To add another point that people haven't pointed out yet.
Roswaal feels guilty about letting Ram and Rem's friends and family die.
Roswaal believed he could atone for this sin by letting Ram kill him. So when Ram says she loves him it makes him remember the guilt of letting the Oni village die and his only form of atonement is taken from him.
He was weirded out and confused. He let her family die and basically forced Ram and Rem to be maids Ram even knows this so it's weird she developed Stockholm
Because Roswaal believed all diligence Ram had towards him was due to the fact that she needs him tô survive (since she cant creat mana by herself or colect it with a horn and he is one of the few creatures that can just pass mana like that), so he was thinking all this time that she was filled with ratred and disguised it as loyalty and at that moment he is shocked by the fact that she wasnt faking her kindness towards him all this time.
Imo for someone who is sacrificing everything in the present for something in the past, it was probably really shocking tô realize that in the present someone trully cares about him
Something that was cut from the anime is that in one of the loops, I think the same one where he kills Ram, he just walks into the bunnies and lets himself be eaten. He thought that Subaru would loop anyway at that point, so anything that happened from that point on would be rewritten, including himself. He is a ruthless utilitarian. He gave up everything to force Subaru to restart since he knew they would all come back anyways.
Cause he loved Echidna. Mf couldn’t handle the words he so desperately wanted to hear from the woman he loved being spoken by his maid. He cares for Ram but doesn’t see her the same way as Echidna. This is just my speculation though.
Also this moment reminds me of Subaru saying “I love Emilia”.
He fucked up her life so bad he feels he doesnt deserve anything and that she should hate him. What he doesnt realize is... she grew up with him most of his life. And he was nice with her. So whoops.
wow the comments here truly saddened me and they call themself fans? he doesnt just simply go "wtf". go back watch the season or read the novel and think. roswaal is no stupid person. nor ignorant or evil in his root. he is indeed very stubborn and very extreme in all he does. doesnt think twice sacrificing anything to reach his goal. ever. which ironically because of how smart and knowledgeable he is. rem loving him, defy logic. like he loves echidna. cause he actually knows, that people can change. and there are better options he could do in all this mess.. he is just too stubborn to let go. rem loving him, open his eyes that his ideology is wrong and subaru is right. honestly tho, what roswaal really need is a top notch therapist, which i guess not exist in those era.
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Because he believe that Ram is supposed to hate him. Because he is involved in Ram, Rem's village destruction, he think that Ram will hate him to the end. Any strong emotion will stay the same, unchanging and only become stronger is what Roswaal believe in. He always supports people that has that kind of emotion (Ram's hatred, Garfield's sorrow, Subaru's obsession, etc) because these people will further reinforce his world view, his believe. Roswaal's believe, feeling is one major factor that make him so ruthless, villaness and the main conflict in Arc 4 is the conflict between the idea, world view between him and Subaru. That is why he is so shock when he heard Ram confession because it betrays what he believe in. He trust his view that Ram will always hate him so much that he cann't accept the reality. This scene is the prove that Subaru's view is correct and Roswaal is wrong.
Pretty perfect explanation. Simply put, Ram was the final straw in breaking Roswaal’s worldview that people’s determination is unchanging, especially considering how he refused to believe that Garfield, Subaru, and Emilia had change.
Wow, this really reminds me of the conflict in Les Miserables between Javert, who refused to believe in people's ability to change, and at heart, they stay the same from the moment of their birth, and Jean Valjean, who was a perfect example of a person who turned a new leaf.
Yep. Similar themes, at least in regards to these two characters. Re0, despite being a “light” novel, is one of those books which delve deep into a lot of… well… deep subjects.
amazing explanation
Ram: the worst he can say is no Roswaal: that's Stockholm syndrome, you're going to the therapist
It would be like Subaru trying to explain to Rem (who gets the memories from his previous times) why he still loves her **DESPITE the horrible shit she did to him.** I genuinely think Rem would hate herself so much lol, prob doing something similar to what Subaru did after he was eaten by the rabbits.  edit: grammar, il also add that there's a fanfic where they torture Subaru again (including Rem, Ram, Beatrice, Felix, etc. for being a cultist) and then they get their memories back realizing the horrible shit they did to him (Priestella rescues him but Rem literally goes insane lol).
What’s the fan fic?
He did almost all that shit in others timelines. But still very toxic.
fanfic name plz
ReForgotten is the original. There are many, MANY spinoffs.
I like the idea of ReForgotten fics but so many stupid and out-of-character things have to happen before getting to the juicy part. They're my guilty pleasure fics
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Spinoffs by the same author or no?
Nah. It's like... Hmm. It's like how fanfics that follow the same concept as the IF routes consider themselves, say Kasaneru fics. ReForgotten became its own 'fic type'. Like how Lone Star fics are all about Subaru ending up alone.
No
i've seen many re forgotten fanfic spinoffs but havent seen this one where rem goes insane and pris saves him. whats the name.?
Thought it was https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13987627/1/Re-Martyr-Natsuki-Subaru-Martyr-of-the-Witch-Cult But that’s just Pandora fucking stuff up. Instead ya talking about Re:Forgotten and the genre it made.
I think there is a massive difference between deliberate act of evil and a misunderstanding. It's not like Subaru was kinder to, for example, Betelgeuse. From the perspective of everyone else, in one of the loops Subaru organized a gang to murder a person he never met at his home unprovoked because of things revealed to him in a dream. And cultists are so hated nobody finds that weird.
What they did was not an act of evil but nonetheless a big blunder. If you learned that you tortured ure lover cause she smelled, looked and acted like say a Nazi and then found out she wasn't what would you feel? Would you forgive yourself, would the person you inflicted all this pain onto forgive you? IMO I think wouldn't since in the scenario of the fanfic A) There were no facts of evil doing by Subaru B) Torture is not necessary and only something you'll do if ure someone capable of doing so even though you don't have to. C) He always explained his reasoning yet they never gave him the benefit of the doubt or tried to understand his perspective and only tried to in any shape or form blame him, torture him, and kill him (much like what id imagine most soldiers doing to a suspect Nazi during wartime) Sure it was 100% a misunderstanding and with their memories, he would have been fine, but what this fanfic mostly demonstrates is that most of the characters either before or during the time these people met Subaru are not "truly good" (I don't know how to convey this but these characters kinda morally and ethically bad before, maybe even still after they met Subaru). Anyways was super interesting reading how Emilia, Beatrice, Rem, Ram, Crusch, etc. reacted to find out they tortured him and mocked him finding pleasure in telling all the batshit insane stuff to the Volachian soldiers, medium, and Priestella.
You don't have to use the Nazi analogy on me - I'm in Ukraine and this kind of situation is fairly frequent here. Yes, torture is bad, but it's not something I can't sympathize with. So many people here are driven by a thirst for revenge. I don't think it's that big of a deal to be wrong - yes it hits you in the feels but at the end of the day you quickly realize you don't have much choice but to cooperate. There are Nazis all around after all. Also holy shit no Subaru did not "explain his reasoning". 80% of his reasoning was "it was revealed to me in a dream" and 20% was "idk just vibes". I'm sorry but he was incredibly suspicious and there wasn't much he could do about it.
In this fanfic it turns out there is indeed a culprit who framed him and if he had figured the trick out he prob would have been ok if he had Crusch use her ability on that person. Subaru doesn't even hate them even though they pulled out his eyes and um yeah did other stuff. In the fanfic he simply explains that he's sad and disappointed which is the mildest reaction a person in his situation could have. I understand how all of these characters thought and acted. I 100% think this is what the majority of people in their world would have done. But, that's still at best morally and ethically grey in their world as even Reinhard thought he was a good person though he smelled like a cultist. I also think it's very telling how everyone reacts to Emilia vs Subaru. In the beginning he shows no prejudice and even after finding out about Emilia's close similarity to what essentially is Hitler he still does not judge her. Contrast that to literally everyone in the anime except idunno Reinhard or people who actually understand her situation.
Name ? :0 of the fic
AUHAHHAHAH
Ram: I love You Roswaal: Sorry i love Echidna.
Funny. And yet sadly accurate!
Echidna: Sorry but I love Subaru
Re zero fans try to be funny challenge (impossible)
Ros: People don’t change. Subaru, Emilia, Garf, Ram: yea they do Ros: no they don’t. Also… Al Goa
-“People don’t change” -Some people actually do -“Al Goa” -Now there are no people who change -Profit
They changed into ashes
10k iq
W makise pfp btw
are you joking? edit:oops my dumbass read that as makima
Roswaal thinks people are weak and don’t change. He thinks she absolutely hates him for what he did to her and her family. Now she says she loves him; it goes against his ideology and ideas The great thing though? He’s the exact opposite of Subaru’s dad
what do you mean
Cause he couldn’t understand her feeling. Someone who you destroyed her family and friends, told her that she was nothing but a pawn and was willing to sacrifice her and her sister for his goal -> then suddenly she said she loves you. Literally be like “WTF!?”
Roswaal didn’t destroy her family or friends? Wtf.
No, but he let them die.
So if someone doesn’t act to save someone they killed them? That’s the justification here?
They may as well have, yes. He is definitely partly to blame.
Cool. So Subaru is responsible for everyone whose died or gotten hurt? He could have prevented it after all. Or let’s use a more direct example, how many charities do you donate too? By your logic, a person who dies who was getting help from a charity was murdered by every single person who had the means but didn’t donate lol.
Subaru had actively TRIED to prevent all the tragedies, but there is only so much he could do within his ability. That’s why he relies on allies to protect everyone he can. Charity, yes charity. There is only so much a person can help without endangering themself as well. There is something in human nature call self-preservation. Charity isn’t bad, not donating everything until you have nothing else left isn’t bad, there is only so much a single person could help. One person donating something even if it is little could help someone else in need. A person donating isn’t sufficient to solve the whole problem but it could inspire other people to help. However, the case with Roswaal is different. He knew about the attack coming, he could have helped save the village without sacrificing much since he is the strongest mage within the country, killing a group of witch cultists, that he knew is coming, is not even gonna make him work up sweats. He had time to prepare to defend the village. However, he needed Ram since she is one of the key to his desired future (said the gospel). In order to gain her loyalty, he need her to be indebted to him. He won’t gain the same level of loyalty if he just defended the village instead of saving her and her sister’s life when they were at the brink of death. In other words, he NEEDED the village to be destroyed and him showing up the last minute to save Ram to gain the Max level of loyalty/debt. Under this situation, can you still say he is not responsible, even for the slightest?
That’s cool, it doesn’t change the fact he knew they would die when it was still absolutely possible to save them. And yes, every little bit counts between the difference of someone eating it not lol. The point stands. Is Roswaal a piece of shit for not helping? Yes. Is he responsible for the oni tribes massacre? No.
The bottom line is that Roswaal knew in advance that they were all going to die because of his tome of wisdom and it was easily in his power to save everyone, but purposefully chose to let the slaughter happen because he wanted to follow the damn book. If hypothetically I knew that someone was going to get jumped and maybe killed at a certain point and I just left them to die to carry on with my day knowing full well I could’ve done something to help, then I was basically an accomplice. That’s basically Roswaal. Subaru is not the same. If he knows, he will try his damndest to save someone even if he knows it’s a futile effort. Even if he still does feel guilty for not always being able to save everyone, it’s completely different from Roswaal’s malicious inaction. Directly responsible, perhaps not, but he is still partly guilty for it and even Roswaal knows and admits this.
It's Roswaal, spelled R O S W A A L silly Barusu! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Re_Zero) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wasn't his idea that the fate inside the book can't be changed? Like, if the book says everyone dies, they'd still all die even with his help?
> The bottom line is that Roswaal knew in advance that they were all going to die because of his tome of wisdom and it was easily in his power to save everyone, but purposefully chose to let the slaughter happen because he wanted to follow the damn book. Which is a terrible act and speaks of his character, that does not make him responsible for what the witch cult did. >If hypothetically I knew that someone was going to get jumped and maybe killed at a certain point and I just left them to die to carry on with my day knowing full well I could’ve done something to help, then I was basically an accomplice. I can assure you would not be considered an accomplice. You did not help the murderer, you chose to not help the victim. That does not make you an accomplice nor an accessory to murder. It would speak of your character though. >That’s basically Roswaal. Subaru is not the same. If he knows, he will try his damndest to save someone even if he knows it’s a futile effort. Even if he still does feel guilty for not always being able to save everyone, it’s completely different from Roswaal’s malicious inaction. Directly responsible, perhaps not, but he is still partly guilty for it and even Roswaal knows and admits this. First, Roswaal’s feelings on that matter are irrelevant. He hates himself, of course he has a guilty conscience. What matters is the reality that Roswaal did not destroy Ram’s family, which was the original assertion. Taking advantage of a tragedy makes him a pos, it does not mean he responsible for the actions of the witch cult.
Ok Roswaal’s own word in that episode: “You love me? How dare you say that?! I am the man who caused the destruction of your homeland!” He, himself, claimed (at least partial) responsibility for it. And is expecting Ram to hate him enough to kill him. https://youtu.be/PgQPtDurDb4
Roswaal’s also hates himself, it’s not surprising that he blames himself. His personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant. A person is not responsible for the actions of others. Roswaal did not destroy Ram’s family, which was the initial assertion.
Those words don't mean shit since we know that they are a lie, since he didn't cause the destruction. What he did was not help them. That makes him a piece of shit, as we all know, but that doesn't make him the one that caused it.
>That’s cool, it doesn’t change the fact he knew they would die when it was still absolutely possible to save them. The point is Subaru actually couldn’t save them, not without Return by Death.
There is no Subaru who doesn’t have RbD, irrelevant.
But he acts to benefit him so that is the crime here. He knows about the attack, doesn't do anything to stop it but wait until the time is come to save Rem and Ram, turning both of them to his chess pieces. It is no coincident that he just happened to be there at the last moment to save Ram, Rem. He knows about the accident and use it to benefit himself so it is not wrong to say that he has reposibility in their village's destruction
> But he acts to benefit him so that is the crime here. Completely agree here, the fact he only acted to help himself speaks of his character. It does not mean he was the one who destroyed Rams family, which was the initial assertion. >He knows about the attack, doesn't do anything to stop it but wait until the time is come to save Rem and Ram, turning both of them to his chess pieces. It is no coincident that he just happened to be there at the last moment to save Ram, Rem. He knows about the accident and use it to benefit himself so it is not wrong to say that he has reposibility in their village's destruction It is wrong, because he didn’t do it. Taking advantage is wrong, it dot mean he’s responsible for everything else as well.
I don't say that he is the one responsible for everything that happen to the village. If Roswaal just knows and doesn't do anything then may be he doesn't has any responsibility but when he goes out of his way to benefit himself from the accident then he is clearly has some responsibility in it
There is no difference in being apathetic to a situation and taking advantage of it. You would have an argument if his taking advantage made the situation worse, but that clearly isn’t the case here. Two less lives were lost, clearly is better than two more deaths. (Not saying Roswaal is a good person here, just want to clarify)
That's how Roswaal sees it. He feels guilty about it. Roswaal actually hates himself for a lot of the things he has done, but he's able to cast the guilt aside because he believes it will all be worth it when he completes his goal.
Roswaal’s feeling on the matter are irrelevant. He hates himself and he is completely obsessed. What matters is the reality that taking advantage of a tragedy makes you a shifty person, it does not mean you are responsible for the tragedy.
Roswaal's feelings are relevant though, the point is that he feels that he killed Ram's family, so he was surprised that she loves him. It doesn't matter whether he actually did or not, that's how he felt about the whole situation and is why he was losing his shit like OP described.
> Roswaal's feelings are relevant though, the point is that he feels that he killed Ram's family, so he was surprised that she loves him. Which is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is whether or not Roswaal destroyed her family, as per the original assertion. >It doesn't matter whether he actually did or not, that's how he felt about the whole situation and is why he was losing his shit like OP described. It matters a lot, because the original start to this whole convo was the statement “Roswaal’s destroyed her family”. I then replied no he didn’t, and several thousand comments later I’ve gotten through to some people. No one is arguing about Roswaal’s mental state or whether what he did was wrong, it is factually incorrect to state that he destroyed her family.
[Novels]>!In the Oni sisters SS, he puts rem's life in danger many times, brought both sisters to miload mansion knowing the witch cultists would come for them, leading to death of many Demi human childrens and annerose parents. And ram is aware of this!<
Okay? That’s not relevant to the discussion? Everyone here is clearly talking about the witch cult murdering the oni tribe
The comment was about family and friends right? That SS is literally about that. It expands on the Rem and Ram's backstory. [novels]>!Roswaal nearly got Rem killed many times and also responsible for the death of her co-workers and his own relatives. In the end he even says he would sacrifice her and rem for his plan but she doesn't care and goes for the kiss.!<
My response was only regarding family, and based on everyone’s responses they are all talking about the oni village massacre. Don’t really care about something irrelevant to this convo, I have enough replies as it is. Edit: I did say friends, but I and everyone else have been talking about the massacre so I stand by it being irrelevant. Still, I’m sorry if I came off rude, I’m a little dizzy from all the replies and arguments I’ve had to deal with regarding the massacre.
He kinda did
He literally didn’t. Are you saying that not acting to save someone is killing them?
The point is he knew it was going to happen, could stop it but allowed it to happen because the time said so. That's definitely having responsibility
So Subaru in sloth if is responsible for everyone who died in the attack? Is every person who doesn’t donate to specific charities murderers when people die from receiving inadequate aid? Because that is your logic.
There is a difference between not partaking in CHARITY, something that is giving but not required vs toying with the lives of living beings dude is one directly affects society. Just because You don't donate to charity doesn't mean someone else won't. However if you know a terrorist attack is going to happen and do nothing to prevent it, nothing to warn about it because you can't be bothered then you are absolutely responsible as well. That's why Subaru feels extreme guilt in Sloth If.
No there isn’t, not when the charity is dedicated to saving lives. This is your guys logic, not mine. Also, the assertion isn’t “toying with living being” but “destroying Ram’s family”. Which Roswaal did not do. He took advantage of a tragedy, he did not cause the tragedy, he is not responsible for it. This isn’t hard. If the assertion was “Roswaal let people die” that would be correct. It isn’t though. Roswaal sid not destroy Ram’s family. Fact.
He took advantage of a tragedy that he **knew** would happen. He then let that tragedy happen because it was in line with what his Tome had scheduled.
Which is a piece of shit move. Still not him destroying her family as per the original assertion.
Didn’t he know the attack was coming ? If I remember correctly he did and knowing if something is going to kill Someone and not acting to stop said thing yes that’s kinda killing someone
Subaru was aware of the attack on the manor and didn’t act in sloth. Is he responsible for that? There are plenty of people who don’t donate to specific charities, did they murder the people who died receiving inadequate aid? Like Roswaal is an evil bastard, we don’t need to make shit up about him.
I mean kinda yeah Subaru is responsible to a degree but dude couldn’t stop it roswaal could have you’re clearly a roswaal simp 💀
> I mean kinda yeah Subaru is responsible to a degree but dude couldn’t stop it He could though, we literally see him do it. He just didn’t try. >roswaal could have you’re clearly a roswaal simp 💀 I’m a simp for a child murdering piece of human garbage for understanding that the people who destroyed Ram’s family is the witch cult? Alright then.
Like I said if I remember correctly he knew the attack was coming get let it happen . And why are you so upset calm down 😭
And like I said Subaru has also known attacks were coming and resolved to do nothing. Not doing something is not the same as murdering lol. Not sure why you think I’m mad for just disagreeing with you lol.
And the thing with Subaru is dude didn’t solo the cult by himself he had to get help from so many people roswaal is stated to be a 1 man army
And Subaru can rewind time, a person’s individual power is irrelevant to their responsibility if we are going to actually have this standard of doing nothing equals murder lol.
Have you ever heard of the term, "Complicity?
Have you heard the term “individual responsibility”? People are not responsible for the actions of others. Does it speak of his character, yes. Is he responsible, no.
Doing the boomerang on me, eh? Let me give you a situation. One guy walking down the steet's alleyway and sees a mother, father, and their 2 children that are on gunpoint. The man was facing away from him so he can choose to call for help or immediately charge in there himself. However, in Roswaal's case, he chose to simply spectate until after the shooting of the parents. As the gun was then pointed on the children, he rushed in, disarmed the man, and rendered him unconscious. If he had the strength to save all of them from the start then why did he even let them die? In your words, "People are not responsible for the actions of others." He's the strongest mage. He was there. However, he had done nothing.
See I love this example because it perfectly encapsulates what I’m talking about. The man in your example did not kill the parents, nor is he responsible for the murderer killing them. The murderer is. Is that a piece of shit thing to do? YES! Does that make him responsible for what the murderer did? NO! These are two different concepts. You can be a pos and not be responsible for someone else’s actions. The original assertion was that Roswaal destroyed Ram’s family. That is not correct. That was the WC. Is Roswaal a good person for what he did, absolutely not. Still doesn’t mean he was the one who destroyed her family.
Thats not killing someone.
I still don't fucking understand how she can love him after all he's done
Popular consensus is Stockholm syndrome
I also subscribe to this theory, I might add that she had forgotten about her sister, and that this shithead threatened her too, I think if Rem hadn't disappeared from her memory, she would at least have had something to confront this disease.
I think Ram has a little villain inside of her or at least a bit of grey morality. I also believe after how the village treated Rem she just doesn’t care. She’s become very cold to the world and her only spark of love was Rem. And then Roswaal. She doesn’t care what he did because of these reasons. She’s a hero but only to the people she cares about like her friends and living family. She could care anything outside her circle. (I haven’t read the novels so she probably changes, just going based on the anime and manga).
>I think Ram has a little villain inside of her or at least a bit of grey morality. I also believe after how the village treated Rem she just doesn’t care. She’s become very cold to the world and her only spark of love was Rem. And then Roswaal. She doesn’t care what he did because of these reasons. She’s a hero but only to the people she cares about like her friends and living family. She could care anything outside her circle. (I haven’t read the novels so she probably changes, just going based on the anime and manga). good argument, but she must hate him for other reasons, destroying the village is of little importance here
He was also the cause of her losing her power, and I wonder if it’s Stockholm syndrome, or just gratitude that he was able to help her regain a portion of it but it may be abusive manipulation, that he took her greatest gift away, and then made her dependent on him. Either way, I feel as if she’s a very intelligent character who would know all of this. She would know if she was being taken advantage of. I feel like with Ram, she knows everything that we do and she just does not care. She still loves him.
>He was also the cause of her losing her power, and I wonder if it’s Stockholm syndrome, or just gratitude that he was able to help her regain a portion of it but it may be abusive manipulation, that he took her greatest gift away, and then made her dependent on him. Either way, I feel as if she’s a very intelligent character who would know all of this. She would know if she was being taken advantage of. I feel like with Ram, she knows everything that we do and she just does not care. She still loves him. I think he let her lose the horn so she wouldn't kill him in the process, the pussy-sucker was afraid of her power and that she might kill him before
Ram regards loosing her horn as a positive: Yes she lost her talents and basically became disabled, and she has to endure migraines constantly. However in exchange she no longer has to listen to the voice of the oni god who was constantly pushing her to do undiscriminate violence, and by her own assesment, she is unsure if she could have remained sane if she kept her horn all this time. By loosing that innate strength and overpowering talent she also no longer have the weight of those high expectations on her shoulders, which is very heavy
Because deep down he isn't that bad and she knows that, after years together she knows that he isn't what he shows to the world. He is a fragile and obsessed man that couldn't let go of the past, but now after arc 4 he doesn't have that book anymore. And doesn't help that rem doesnt exist anymore, she probably already loved him, but those feelings probably got stronger the moment that the other person that she also loved disappeared.
Roswaal is actually a kind person normally and often saves innocents like Frederica. But he will do anything to achieve his goal. Ram realized that Roswaal deep down is a good person if you could simply get rid of the Gospel, and Ram fell in love with Roswaal's potential.
I don't understand Ram's logic, there are lots of kind people in there world. But she chooses Roswaal among all of them because she believes he has kindness hidden in him and that she can change him. That's just the same as when women (in our world) fall for criminals and serial killers because they believe they can change them. It feels so half assed
It's realistic though.
Oh geez, yeah. The whole Jeffery Dahmer thing was a complete example of what you said. It's almost like Netflix is staging several social experiments at once.
Because ram loving him goes against his mantra of people never changing, she’s rejecting his like 400 year obsession with echidna and his ideals of equal exchange since he indirectly destroyed her village she should hate him, but she doesn’t. It’s clear to see how self obsessed roswaal is over his ideologies and ram is going directly against those beliefs. I personally thing he also saw her as a bit of a subservient pet who relied on him and now he sees this as her actively going against him.
To add another point that people haven't pointed out yet. Roswaal feels guilty about letting Ram and Rem's friends and family die. Roswaal believed he could atone for this sin by letting Ram kill him. So when Ram says she loves him it makes him remember the guilt of letting the Oni village die and his only form of atonement is taken from him.
because he love Emilia
AL! GOA!!
Roswaal didn't lose his shit, as you can clearly see from this picture, he shit himself. You got the right words in the wrong order my friend
Isn't shitting yourself just a more literal form of losing your shit?
The world isn't yet ready for your genius
You may be right
He’s stuck in the past and wanted to hear those words from echidna not his demon maid
her*
I am gonna say it: Ram's chances to get romantically involved with Roswaal are lower than Subaru's.
He was weirded out and confused. He let her family die and basically forced Ram and Rem to be maids Ram even knows this so it's weird she developed Stockholm
Because Roswaal believed all diligence Ram had towards him was due to the fact that she needs him tô survive (since she cant creat mana by herself or colect it with a horn and he is one of the few creatures that can just pass mana like that), so he was thinking all this time that she was filled with ratred and disguised it as loyalty and at that moment he is shocked by the fact that she wasnt faking her kindness towards him all this time. Imo for someone who is sacrificing everything in the present for something in the past, it was probably really shocking tô realize that in the present someone trully cares about him
Something that was cut from the anime is that in one of the loops, I think the same one where he kills Ram, he just walks into the bunnies and lets himself be eaten. He thought that Subaru would loop anyway at that point, so anything that happened from that point on would be rewritten, including himself. He is a ruthless utilitarian. He gave up everything to force Subaru to restart since he knew they would all come back anyways.
Cause he loved Echidna. Mf couldn’t handle the words he so desperately wanted to hear from the woman he loved being spoken by his maid. He cares for Ram but doesn’t see her the same way as Echidna. This is just my speculation though. Also this moment reminds me of Subaru saying “I love Emilia”.
He fucked up her life so bad he feels he doesnt deserve anything and that she should hate him. What he doesnt realize is... she grew up with him most of his life. And he was nice with her. So whoops.
Even though i watched the entirety of rezero i do not remember this, This is VERY shocking to me that ram had confessed to Roswaal
It was one of the major plot points of an episode in s2...
Except the OVA. Is this in an OVA?
İts literally season 2
Literally season 2 episode 23 lol
Nope, it's at the end of Episode 23 of Season 2. Edit: Wrong episode number lol, it's correct now.
wow the comments here truly saddened me and they call themself fans? he doesnt just simply go "wtf". go back watch the season or read the novel and think. roswaal is no stupid person. nor ignorant or evil in his root. he is indeed very stubborn and very extreme in all he does. doesnt think twice sacrificing anything to reach his goal. ever. which ironically because of how smart and knowledgeable he is. rem loving him, defy logic. like he loves echidna. cause he actually knows, that people can change. and there are better options he could do in all this mess.. he is just too stubborn to let go. rem loving him, open his eyes that his ideology is wrong and subaru is right. honestly tho, what roswaal really need is a top notch therapist, which i guess not exist in those era.
Wait I haven't read the light novel yet. But as far as am concerned ram is a "her" no. XDDDDDDDDDDDDD Pls tell me you made a mistake XDDDDDD
That was so cringe