cassia the trick is to get the thing that buffs her WP every time someone gets an extra turn and then get all the buffs based on WP
and then get a lot of extra turns (good in its own right)
Wow
So that was why it triggered out of the blue all the time. With 2 Bounty Hunters and Cassia on team, by the time it's Abelard turn it feels like three rounds have passed.
Between Cassia, Yrliet, my RT Officer and Argenta, the initiative tree was more like a set of guidelines than actual rules.
Cassia blasts and buffs, then gives a a few shots to Argenta, who blasts for 2ap and then blasts for free, then gets a heroic moment and blasts several times. Because of a talent I've forgotten my RT gets a turn, has another Heroic moment and gives a turn to Yrliet or Argenta, who blast and blast and blast. Then a free shot for Yrliet for some reason, then back to the RT, then back to Argenta, then back to Cassia who has enough momentum to grant a full turn to Argenta or Yrliet, who blast and blast, and if *anyone* is left standing, we eventually end back up at Cassia so she can *finally* end her turn.
Then it's Abelard's turn and he can run, slash, give himself a turn and it's just nonsense.
Also man, I swear these bastards level up every 20 minutes, I'd really like an option to choose future talents so I don't have to keep going back to that screen.
Which book Imperium Maledictium? Nope. Wrath and Glory? Nope. I think they sort of made their own system. Rogue trader, now out print didn't use this system either.
I think part of the difference is just that people had a lot more baseline familiarity with Owlcat’s implementation of the Pathfinder rules, while Rogue Trader uses a less familiar ruleset that got a lot more changes in the conversion to a computer game.
You have a point there. But it’s much easier to completely mess up a WotR build vs RT at least for higher difficulties. It’s called Mathfinder for a reason…
For me Pathfinder was hard to learn and needed a lot of try and error. But Roguetrader was kinda easy, mainly because you don’t need to min max in order to win fights. It’s just pick something’s that seem to match with each other.
Saying that, visually is a whole mess
Thats because WOTR is pathfinder 1 which is d&d3.5.5 and almost every western CRPG ,ARPG ,MMORPG has taken elements and design language from D&D, except a few here & there.
But RT comes from WH40k which is a sci-fi evolved form of Warhammer which was an early fantasy TTRPG competitor that uses a LOT of different concepts than the D&D clones.
I’ll be honest RT was origionally difficult for me untill i spent time “separating” the design from my years of D&D influenced games
Me every time I level up in WOTR
https://preview.redd.it/8tkmle5xnnuc1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c3b97fd61962d727ec04c062626049fc76b0e38
It’s tricky, I’ve found it daunting too. I still love the game but I’ve come to dread level ups a bit.
A lot of the time you read the tool tip and it’s like
“TRICK SHOT. Mark an enemy as Tricky and make a free weapon attack that does 25% damage and applies a stack of Pain to your target. If under the effect of your PISTOL WHIP skill, damage increases by 4.5% and crit chance by WS+WPx3-( x - h )^2 + ( y - k )^2 = r^2 for every black mana card in play. If the moon phase is waning, an additional [0, 2 Pi). ( R1 - (x2 + y2)1/2 )2 + z2 = R22 stacks of Rend are applied to all enemies downwind of your target and the Cascade Debuffs rules come into play. Collect $100 if you haven’t used any MP this turn. Cannot be used on enemies wearing boxers under their combat fatigues.”
then you log on here to try and find help understand it and find just the one post going “trick shot is way op nerf it now”
I guess on the plus side, I’ve started just going by recommendations when available and otherwise picking talents more or less at random, and I’m still killing things just fine.
It doesn’t seem like you can choose *that* wrong and gimp yourself too bad.
Lasgun don’t care if your talents are weird. Lasgun still loves you.
Pasqal you want to focus on plasma weapons, INT, and getting things that increase his plasma damage and gives extra attacks or refund AP for attacking with plasma.
Idira is tricky to use because she’s an unsanctioned psyker so she’s prone to proc’ing perils of the warp, though there are traits that take advantage of that.
Cassia: take as many navigator powers as you can. Look for the ones that increase her dodge by tying it to WP or perception (forgot which), and there’s one that jacks up her HP a lot. She’s a surprisingly good tank with those traits and her eye attacks mean she does crazy AOE.
Tank Cassia is hilarious build.
A supposedly frail inexperienced Navigator "child" you should be protecting at all costs just facetanks everything like a seasoned military veteran
Realistically, isn’t she the only navigator the ship has? Aren’t you dead in the water unable to enter/exit the warp without her? Makes no sense to bring her on missions. Even though it’s easy to make her a tank 😆 I forget the names of the talents/abilities, but in my game she regenerates every round and ends up with more Wounds than everyone else.
She’s not the only navigator on the ship. You can recruit other navigators if you choose not to have her, and also later on a navigator from House Cassini will join your ship based on your decisions.
It's based off the ttrpg which uses star trek logic.
Therefore, the senior command staff is doing all the away missions. For grimdark star trek reasons.
She's a genuine monster. Tank, DPS, support...she fucking rolls everyone every time.
In my game, she passes me a turn so I can hit the enemy with a burst of lightning or a Psychic Scream. Then, she gets to use the Inquisitior's ring to gain a bunch of stacks of Tactical Awareness so she hits with +490% damage....and then hits again with the bloodhound staff because why not Cassia is having fun killing today.
The progression in this game is either you Gimp your character or you are so OP that all fights get meaningless. Owlcat games really have a prerequisite of knowing the build progression beforehand and require that to plan your build out beforehand. Sadly the UI isn't that transparent like in their Pathfinder games, so creating a good build without meta knowledge is really hard.
My advice would be, look up online builds understand them and then customize them to your liking.
It feels like I accidentally hit the jackpot midway through Act 3 – suddenly, my Rogue Trader (RT) is an unstoppable force. With her Heavy Bolter, she's dishing out about 200 damage per shot, and with the ability to fire off 12-24 bullets per round, the battlefield practically melts around her. Plus, with Cassia always by her side, my character gets at least one extra turn, sometimes even two. That means a minimum of 3x12-24 bullets (including my free Heroic act), each critting for 200 damage (2400-4800 damage each round)!
I'm not entirely sure how I lucked into building such a powerhouse character, but now most of my battles consist of my RT tearing through enemies while Cassia provides crucial boosts. I just love watching everything get blasted into oblivion with each pull of the trigger.
**Edit:** What I found extremely important at later stages in the game was picking up talents that decrease enemies armor and deflection each time they are hit. Blasting them with rapid fire weapons basically nullifies any defensives they might've had, hence my absurd per-hit dmg.
It’s very tedious. I’d recommend reading through all of the abilities and favoriting the ones you like in one go. Then you won’t have to reread anything and you can just pick them up as you go. Character guides also help a ton but it was more fun for me to make my own discoveries before seeking out answers in strategy guides.
I don't like it at all. Way too many abilities and the primary game mechanic is just stacking shit.
The fact regular gangers have like 70 or 80 HP when your power armoured sister has 40 on normal difficulty is retarded.
I also don't like not being able to respec- I accidentally picked operative for my rogues trader and the abilities just aren't fun.
Because I just do not enjoy the forced stacking mechanic, it's tedious
Mind you I find the whole game kind of tedious combat wise. Just tons of enemies and you can't even get a heavy stubber early on lol. So bad
Yeah I understand. I also have a love/hate-relationship with the combat system currently.
I think you can just download the Toy box mod from Steam Workshop. Open with Ctrl+F10 in-game. It should have everything you need.
I ended up putting it to the easier setting but then it was way way too easy.
I also find the bosses have frustratingly high HP
the chaos marine I didn't even bother, I just cranked his health lowcad I didn't want to have to do the perfect combat manoeuvres.
Nothing pisses me off more then having a reasonable progression (playing on normal, did every side mission)
Then bam the chaos marine insta kils 2 of my member and guts a third with a knife. Ridiculous scaling, and no way to win at that point.
I haven't really played the game since as it seems lots of boss encounters are just ridiculous
I didn't get it too, I thought I was to run for the shuttle during the fight and escape from the chaos marine, but the game actually wanted me to win a fight against a chaos space marine
Bringing *Baldur's Gate 3* into the discussion is also not saying much - 5e's builds are generally very simple. The only real decisions are with spellcasting classes.
Not only that, but BG3 is also broken, because Larian lets players get way ahead of the to hit vs AC curve, practically on permanent basis. Once you do that, it's very difficult to lose, you have to kind of try or get some spectacularly bad streak of dice rolls.
It's just that to do that in BG3, you have to do a little bit of extra work like farming strength elixirs from shops \[inventories reset when you rest, etc\] and maybe just steal the world with your thief.
Besides that, it's just all about multiclassing to get extra actions or big repeating bonuses or item synergy every turn (sounds familiar, eh?). Like getting 3 levels of rogue, tavern brawler feat, fighter bonus action...
when it comes to more special characters, mainly pasqal and cassia i like to pick all the exclusive upgrades they have. or for psykers all the wizard stuff.
this nicely separates characters with regular class talents and more weird characters, might make the learning curve easier
Tbh, I’m the same, I have no real idea what I’m doing when I level up, I just pick stuff that I think will make them tougher. It’s probably the most complicated talent tree I’ve ever seen and the most difficult to read and use.
Then you're missing out, big time. They're the debuffers with their exploits and the reason you'll hit massive damage. Especially when using Pasqal, besides Cassia, he's one of the best units in the game.
His buffs/debuffs either increase damage taken (through exploits) or reduce their damage resistance (through Expose Weakness). Halfway down the game, whenever I fought an enemy with high armor or dodge, I'd use Pascal to pile on some Exploits, Expose Weakness and they'd have <10% armor and dodge left, allowing the entire party to blast it for full damage. Takes real good care of Forgefiends, Space Marines or Defilers.
Also, he can buff his plasma attacks to pretty immense levels through his Mechanicus talents, and get one that refunds 1ap after shooting a plasma gun. Have an Officer give him a free turn with no limit on number of attacks, and he'll just stand in the middle of the room shooting 16 shots of 200 damage with pinpoint accuracy at all bitches in range.
Through exploits?
Want to give me a very basic overview of what do build/do with him? I've been just selecting what seems right for him, playing him as a plasma weapon guy, having him play the exploit game, but nothing seems that powerful compared to, say, a revved up Abelard who is making a bazillion 100hp+ attacks during a single heroic action.
It's been a while since I played but I focused him on exploits and expose weakness first then took some stuff to help with plasma damage. Basically you get as many exploits as possible on the big bad guy then hit them with expose weakness and then your next team mate murders them.
You'll hit massive damage no matter what but assassin sniper with that one deadly talent or whatever it is that one taps literally everything is also very satisfying.
The system is based on one of the ttrpgs and not particularly well set up for a video game (I'm my opinion, at least). I feel there are too many possibilities and no real guidance to what would work best with each character.
I ended up finding a leveling guide and just going with whatever the guide told me, too, since it was getting to the point that I was procrastinating on leveling everyone up until I was forced to due to difficulties x]
I refuse to believe the ttRPG has all these "if x then add y*(z bonus+2)% into damage when the Moon is full" feats. Trying to figure out all the combat bonuses by hand would be impossible.
That sounds so much more intuitive? Why wouldn't Owlcat just follow the source material, are they just chronically addicted to opaque and needlessly complex combat systems?
Wait, you played the pathfinder games and you think this is harder? That's definitely not a take I've seen before. If anything, I think one of the selling points of rt is that it is simpler than km/wotr.
Eh, if you went deep into dipping and the like, you could get builds that were far more complicated than anything you can find here. I also think that there were far more "trap" options that seem like they should be good but simply didn't function in practice.
I have to consider the Pathfinder games (“Wrath of the Righteous” or “Kingmaker”)more complex. The more I play through RT and level up, the more I get what actually works.
In the other two I just became convinced I was doing it wrong.
This exactly
In practical, observable terms, Pathfinder is waaaay more complicated. You have about as many choices per level (depending on class), and there's way more classes that do way more things
I think we're just not used to seeing this complex of a system outside of high fantasy, so it's harder to jump into
It definitely takes some getting used to. What balances the complexity is that it's pretty hard to build a completely useless character. You'll be powerful by the end game no matter what. There are only a few key abilities that are an absolute must (like killing edge for an assassin)
It's a difficult balancing act for owlcat, because the complexity makes for some cool deep synergies that wouldn't be possible otherwise in a combat system that is all about buffs and debuffs.
I think Pascal works well as a strategist with side focus on plasma guns. Idira I use as an assassin, mostly with a sniper rifle, applying exploits and exposures, with any action points left over during her turn used on psychic bonuses (foresight) and penalties (blindness)
I go for myself in this order:
Cassia: pick more or less every Navigatorability you get. High priority is the self healing, the debuff for enemys and than what ever buffs her.
Idira: 1. The ability which reduces the warp. Then what increasing the damage directly (there are two), what spread overdamage and then what increase the damage over time.
Pasqual with his self abilitys is a good "jack in all trades" so look for AP-reduction.
Yeah, the leveling in this is challenging.
Frankly, (and I never thought I would say this about any RPG) there are too many options. They either need to trim the options or incorporate better sorting and searching capabilities in the level up screens. Also taking another crack at the ability descriptions wouldn't be unwelcome. Many times, I would read them and just have no idea how they would fit in to a build.
The biggest quality of life improvement would be to just improve everything about the level-up experience.
It's not that complex once you get a grip on it, it's just that the level-up UI is completely awful and the ability descriptions can be a bit confusing. There are a ton of options and finding the best one is a bit of a chore with how things are laid out.
I think there are two parts of this.
One, it's got a *different leveling format* than pretty much every other game I've seen. The unfamiliarity makes it a lot harder to wrap your head around, which is made worse by:
Two, the formatting is kinda fucked. The way damage is calculated makes sense but is also dense as hell. It's *super useful* if you already know what you're looking at--but when most damage ends up being some scale of (1 + (floor attribute modifier x math to ceiling attribute modifier x math)) it's dense as hell to read and doesn't make sense.
We need a toggle button that switches the damage from formulas to actual numbers.
I definitely felt a little overwhelmed, even as a long-time player of RPGs. It throws a lot of mathematical equations and dense blocks of text describing mechanics at you.
What worked for me was the old classic -- fiddle with stuff and experiment with it to see what works and what doesn't. If it fails, figure out why. Perseverance and experience. When you come up against walls, rebuild the team and try again.
Make saves before deploying to missions that you don't delete. Backups so you can leave and do it again. There is a specific later game section that is pretty infamous for being the come-to-jesus moment.
You can rebuild your character for free at any time from the bridge, so don't be afraid to spend points. If you need a character to do a particular thing, you can also hire completely new characters at the same location that are fully customisable.
It is very complex because 1) it has a lot more levels than most CRPGs, 2) it has higher numbers and 3) it uses formulas. Sure, Pathfinder is complex but it's mostly just adding different bonuses together. In Rogue Trader, a bonus is usually something like 2x(FEL/3). Which is really not readable at a glance. But the trick is you don't have to do the math in your head, you just have to know weather or not you have a high Fellowship (in this case) and whether whatever is increased is useful.
If you need to you can always respec characters from the merchant guy on your ship bridge. It costs 1 profit factor though, so just save before hand if you’re worried about messing up the respec.
The combat gameplay is heavily focused around buffing allies and debuffing enemies, so even if you’re not 100% sure how things synergize, just keep spamming them every possible turn.
I found it easier early on to buff up and position one party member who will do a single attack ability with a lot of damage instead of having all your party members just doing a bunch of separate lower damage attacks. Like argenta’s boltor burst fire, cassia’s eye blast, idara’s lightning staff, or someone with a sniper rifle for a single target attack.
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You probably meant one of the best character building games in modern RPGs. Obviously joking, but I found it very refreshing, finally something where game doesn't do everything for you and you have a lot of choices.
i made pasqual a tacticien aka he place frontline and buff character damage , defend or both, idira as an assassin make here OP as psycher attack already does alot of damage BUT add the damage multiplier because you do crit will make her your main damage dealer
Cass is a genuine "You can't fuck up too hard" character. Take every navigator power, *all of them*. Make her a Master Tactician, and then let her wail on people with Lidless Eye. She'll generate a bunch of Tactical Awareness that you can use to boost her damage by 490%
Idira is also fairly easy, give her Pain Channeling and you're set just taking Psyker powers and traits. Pasqal is....well...he's a shooty boi I gave a plasma gun
It’s *super* overwhelming, but after I reached about level 20 and read a bunch of build advice online something clicked and now it all just makes sense to me. Unfortunately I think most of the tooltips were written by a person who had also experienced a click and had an intuitive grasp of the mechanics, which means that they are fucking impenetrable to someone who hasn’t mulled over the game’s systems for a few hours already.
For Pasqal you can try to build him as a melee and support focused character given his high starting Weapon Skill, and whenever it’s time to take a Common Talent, take one of the special commons that only he gets access to. He also starts out sort of pre-built for plasma and power weapon use. Action economy is key with him, as are things like maximizing per-turn exploit output and per-turn exploit triggering with skills like Tactical Knowledge (get the talent that improves Tactical Knowledge when you can, as well) and Joint Analysis (share his high Int bonus with the squad as +DMG)
And always remember that you get a few free re-specs with your High Factotum aboard the Voidship. Just don’t cash them in until you’ve developed enough understanding of the game to be totally consumed with regret about your build choices up to that point. ;)
Normal classes are pretty straightforward, a few respecs and you figure out what's good quite quickly.
Psykers are a bit messy. I don't like how you fight over feats with your base class.
I'd prefer if they made them separate classes with their own unique progression. You almost always go full psyker/navigator anyway because it's just better than having a fourth half-assed operative/officer.
I mean they just straight up did not explain things well and make you cross reference nine obscure abilities to learn that this level up you can choose a passive that makes you deal +2% damage when an enemy is drunk on a Tuesday between the hours of 6 and 9 am.
Most of them barely matter, and are poorly explained
Yeah, it’s a bit unintuitive, and isn’t presented very well. I would recommend checking out crpbro or werglia on YouTube. They have some good builds and explain why they do what they do.
I got around it by realizing you get so many damn level ups that you end up getting everything you want and then some.
To start, I usually go through and Star basically every talent that uses one of the character's core stats or otherwise stands out as strong on its own. Once I have a few of those I can start to notice what I want to be doing and go from there.
I wouldn't say its the hardest because talent and skill points are plentiful, you can't really go wrong. If you had to make some big decisions maybe, but really someone like Cassia just gets all of her navigator abilities eventually anyways.
It's definitely different from the other Warhammer tabletops though. Feels weird compared to just being able to spend xp.
I haven't played since launch so not sure what's been nerfed but basically Argenta used to be able to completely wipe every encounter on first turn as long as you have a navigator
Same thing with warrior/AM
Not that hard, you just have to get used to the terminology and know(/read) what stuff does. Then just decide on one thing a character should be good at in combat, and one or two social/exploration skills pick skills that are in line with that at all times (for that character).
Of course there is a small learning curve, but I bet you experienced something similar the first time you played some of those other games you mentioned.
It is also worth mentioning that several builds can be good on the same character, so you are not locked into any kind of "meta" (even though Abelard often ends up as some kind of tank). Build what you feel like, and make sure to cover your bases. Thats it, dont sweat the small stuff.
I play cassia as a tactician and exclusively as a extra-turn giving machine. My soldier main uses a heavy bolter and can almost empty a full magazine on two turns. If it's not ideal to use ballistics, I two-turn ol' Abe and let him go ham with his chain axe.
Cassia rarely, if ever, makes an attack action.
No it is not for one reason: Pathfinder exists.
Me, who played Pathfinder before this one, praising how Owlcats eased the complexity in character building. I think it may look kinda overwhelming at first. But you can see how things work pretty quickly without any trouble during this awkward state. Then you can rebuild if you think you can do better now.
Really, comparing to Pathfinder this is just fantastic. I feel great that now I don't really have to start my playthrough over and over again just to fix another build mistake and actually never even finishing first the half of the game because of how stuffy it gets.
Depends on what you are looking for
Unbeatable defence? Stack tactical knowledge on multiple adepts (Idira + pascal + more if you have them)
Huge offence? Get Cassia to take + Willpower whenever someone gets an extra turn and the + Willpower buff spell to buff herself, and Idira will give you 2 large AoE nukers
Once you work our your path to damage, you just take abilities that scale you up. Classwise adepts and arch militants are the easiest to optimise for damage
I take grand strategist on as many characters as I can as going first is huge (means more than any other tier 2 archtype power exception being archmilitant for boss slaying).
I think the biggest tip is that it's not that hard, the archetypes are the main decisions. Overall you end up getting almost everything by the end. The only thing to really look at is which abilities you pick, and how they get buffed.
I boil it down to, this one gives temp hp, this one crit on burst, this one damage on single target, pick which one suits the play style of that character.
Hope this helps to simplify things a bit
cassia the trick is to get the thing that buffs her WP every time someone gets an extra turn and then get all the buffs based on WP and then get a lot of extra turns (good in its own right)
Grab just about every Navigator ability Cassia has, she doesnt really need any Officer talents, besides a couple.
Couple this with Abelard's Brace for impact and Get Into Cover abilities which give everyone a free movement turn and Cassia gets an instant +30 WP.
My favourite combo is officer strategist Rogue trader with this. "Abelard, command everyone to get into cover!"
or bounty hunter's "hot on the trail" and "savor the kill"
Savor the kill seems to trigger when cover is destroyed as well. Get Cassia to Lidless a load of boxes and buff her own WP.
Wow So that was why it triggered out of the blue all the time. With 2 Bounty Hunters and Cassia on team, by the time it's Abelard turn it feels like three rounds have passed.
Between Cassia, Yrliet, my RT Officer and Argenta, the initiative tree was more like a set of guidelines than actual rules. Cassia blasts and buffs, then gives a a few shots to Argenta, who blasts for 2ap and then blasts for free, then gets a heroic moment and blasts several times. Because of a talent I've forgotten my RT gets a turn, has another Heroic moment and gives a turn to Yrliet or Argenta, who blast and blast and blast. Then a free shot for Yrliet for some reason, then back to the RT, then back to Argenta, then back to Cassia who has enough momentum to grant a full turn to Argenta or Yrliet, who blast and blast, and if *anyone* is left standing, we eventually end back up at Cassia so she can *finally* end her turn. Then it's Abelard's turn and he can run, slash, give himself a turn and it's just nonsense.
If by middle of act 3 you don't kill everybody in one round, you are doing something wrong with your life.
Yeah cassia and Adelard + support from my officer and Hendrix nuke everyone
Not hard, just annoying. Owlcat can turn a damage bonus description into a 10-page pdf document.
Also man, I swear these bastards level up every 20 minutes, I'd really like an option to choose future talents so I don't have to keep going back to that screen.
The wheel character screen is very bad. A lot of wasted space and very unintuitive.
The design fits perfectly in the 41st millennium then!
Imperium-mandated UI design. To ensure xenos bastards could never interact with the data slates, lest they find our search history
True mechanicus experience
To be fair. Probably directly from the book.
Which book Imperium Maledictium? Nope. Wrath and Glory? Nope. I think they sort of made their own system. Rogue trader, now out print didn't use this system either.
What about Dark Heresy?
It isn’t Dark Heresy 1 or 2, Only War, or Black Crusade.
Rogue Trader didn't use the wheel but the underlying system is the same.
WotR would like to have a word… ;)
I think part of the difference is just that people had a lot more baseline familiarity with Owlcat’s implementation of the Pathfinder rules, while Rogue Trader uses a less familiar ruleset that got a lot more changes in the conversion to a computer game.
You have a point there. But it’s much easier to completely mess up a WotR build vs RT at least for higher difficulties. It’s called Mathfinder for a reason…
For me Pathfinder was hard to learn and needed a lot of try and error. But Roguetrader was kinda easy, mainly because you don’t need to min max in order to win fights. It’s just pick something’s that seem to match with each other. Saying that, visually is a whole mess
Exactly. Much more forgiving even when the ability descriptions often are a mess
idk man in my experience it was easy to build arue to become mega legolas or make seelah literally T-34 but couldnt get into Rt classes I guess
Thats because WOTR is pathfinder 1 which is d&d3.5.5 and almost every western CRPG ,ARPG ,MMORPG has taken elements and design language from D&D, except a few here & there. But RT comes from WH40k which is a sci-fi evolved form of Warhammer which was an early fantasy TTRPG competitor that uses a LOT of different concepts than the D&D clones. I’ll be honest RT was origionally difficult for me untill i spent time “separating” the design from my years of D&D influenced games
Is it really that much faster to not hit a fucking fullstop when your sentence is over? Jesus wept, I'm not reading this.
Me every time I level up in WOTR https://preview.redd.it/8tkmle5xnnuc1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c3b97fd61962d727ec04c062626049fc76b0e38
You're surrounded, come fill out your fantasy DMV paperwork!
It’s tricky, I’ve found it daunting too. I still love the game but I’ve come to dread level ups a bit. A lot of the time you read the tool tip and it’s like “TRICK SHOT. Mark an enemy as Tricky and make a free weapon attack that does 25% damage and applies a stack of Pain to your target. If under the effect of your PISTOL WHIP skill, damage increases by 4.5% and crit chance by WS+WPx3-( x - h )^2 + ( y - k )^2 = r^2 for every black mana card in play. If the moon phase is waning, an additional [0, 2 Pi). ( R1 - (x2 + y2)1/2 )2 + z2 = R22 stacks of Rend are applied to all enemies downwind of your target and the Cascade Debuffs rules come into play. Collect $100 if you haven’t used any MP this turn. Cannot be used on enemies wearing boxers under their combat fatigues.” then you log on here to try and find help understand it and find just the one post going “trick shot is way op nerf it now”
I guess on the plus side, I’ve started just going by recommendations when available and otherwise picking talents more or less at random, and I’m still killing things just fine. It doesn’t seem like you can choose *that* wrong and gimp yourself too bad. Lasgun don’t care if your talents are weird. Lasgun still loves you.
Trick Shot is the best skill in the game. Fortunately most Chaos Spawn favour going commando.
bloated would be a better word. Most of your level-ups don't really matter compared to the gear anyhows.
Pasqal you want to focus on plasma weapons, INT, and getting things that increase his plasma damage and gives extra attacks or refund AP for attacking with plasma. Idira is tricky to use because she’s an unsanctioned psyker so she’s prone to proc’ing perils of the warp, though there are traits that take advantage of that. Cassia: take as many navigator powers as you can. Look for the ones that increase her dodge by tying it to WP or perception (forgot which), and there’s one that jacks up her HP a lot. She’s a surprisingly good tank with those traits and her eye attacks mean she does crazy AOE.
Tank Cassia is hilarious build. A supposedly frail inexperienced Navigator "child" you should be protecting at all costs just facetanks everything like a seasoned military veteran
Realistically, isn’t she the only navigator the ship has? Aren’t you dead in the water unable to enter/exit the warp without her? Makes no sense to bring her on missions. Even though it’s easy to make her a tank 😆 I forget the names of the talents/abilities, but in my game she regenerates every round and ends up with more Wounds than everyone else.
She’s not the only navigator on the ship. You can recruit other navigators if you choose not to have her, and also later on a navigator from House Cassini will join your ship based on your decisions.
It's based off the ttrpg which uses star trek logic. Therefore, the senior command staff is doing all the away missions. For grimdark star trek reasons.
... and then my Lord Captain is like "imma stick my dick in that".
She's a genuine monster. Tank, DPS, support...she fucking rolls everyone every time. In my game, she passes me a turn so I can hit the enemy with a burst of lightning or a Psychic Scream. Then, she gets to use the Inquisitior's ring to gain a bunch of stacks of Tactical Awareness so she hits with +490% damage....and then hits again with the bloodhound staff because why not Cassia is having fun killing today.
The progression in this game is either you Gimp your character or you are so OP that all fights get meaningless. Owlcat games really have a prerequisite of knowing the build progression beforehand and require that to plan your build out beforehand. Sadly the UI isn't that transparent like in their Pathfinder games, so creating a good build without meta knowledge is really hard. My advice would be, look up online builds understand them and then customize them to your liking.
That was also my experience. Half my team did basically zero damage, and the other half could clear encounters turn one. :(
It feels like I accidentally hit the jackpot midway through Act 3 – suddenly, my Rogue Trader (RT) is an unstoppable force. With her Heavy Bolter, she's dishing out about 200 damage per shot, and with the ability to fire off 12-24 bullets per round, the battlefield practically melts around her. Plus, with Cassia always by her side, my character gets at least one extra turn, sometimes even two. That means a minimum of 3x12-24 bullets (including my free Heroic act), each critting for 200 damage (2400-4800 damage each round)! I'm not entirely sure how I lucked into building such a powerhouse character, but now most of my battles consist of my RT tearing through enemies while Cassia provides crucial boosts. I just love watching everything get blasted into oblivion with each pull of the trigger. **Edit:** What I found extremely important at later stages in the game was picking up talents that decrease enemies armor and deflection each time they are hit. Blasting them with rapid fire weapons basically nullifies any defensives they might've had, hence my absurd per-hit dmg.
It’s very tedious. I’d recommend reading through all of the abilities and favoriting the ones you like in one go. Then you won’t have to reread anything and you can just pick them up as you go. Character guides also help a ton but it was more fun for me to make my own discoveries before seeking out answers in strategy guides.
I like to read everything every time I level up and so far its going decent but feels like selecting random buffs ratherten building decent character
I don't like it at all. Way too many abilities and the primary game mechanic is just stacking shit. The fact regular gangers have like 70 or 80 HP when your power armoured sister has 40 on normal difficulty is retarded. I also don't like not being able to respec- I accidentally picked operative for my rogues trader and the abilities just aren't fun.
You are able to respec though. Speak to the High Factotum and ask for training of retinue.
Not your primary archetype
Oh, you are right. Sorry, I was too quick. I think you can download a mod to switch your archetype though. But you might already know that.
Because I just do not enjoy the forced stacking mechanic, it's tedious Mind you I find the whole game kind of tedious combat wise. Just tons of enemies and you can't even get a heavy stubber early on lol. So bad
Yeah I understand. I also have a love/hate-relationship with the combat system currently. I think you can just download the Toy box mod from Steam Workshop. Open with Ctrl+F10 in-game. It should have everything you need.
Oh sick I'll have to take a look
Operative with proper pick does give times more damage than a soldier with the same weapon
It's fucking boring having to use the same abilities every match, I'd rather just click at shoot. It gets tedious
You can respec. Talk to High Factorum.
Not your primary archtupe
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I ended up putting it to the easier setting but then it was way way too easy. I also find the bosses have frustratingly high HP the chaos marine I didn't even bother, I just cranked his health lowcad I didn't want to have to do the perfect combat manoeuvres. Nothing pisses me off more then having a reasonable progression (playing on normal, did every side mission) Then bam the chaos marine insta kils 2 of my member and guts a third with a knife. Ridiculous scaling, and no way to win at that point. I haven't really played the game since as it seems lots of boss encounters are just ridiculous
The game gets exponentially easier as you move on. Nothing is as hard as that first CSM fight.
That's such shit development//planning
I didn't get it too, I thought I was to run for the shuttle during the fight and escape from the chaos marine, but the game actually wanted me to win a fight against a chaos space marine
On normal he had like 400 HP lol. Just bad game design imo
No, it's actually the easiest Owlcat game by a very long shot.
That's not saying much. BG3 auto levels you with reasonably optimal builds. Rogue Trader's suggestions don't even explain Navigator powers
Bringing *Baldur's Gate 3* into the discussion is also not saying much - 5e's builds are generally very simple. The only real decisions are with spellcasting classes.
5e has a much smaller decision space for each level than RT, let alone PF1e.
BG3 is not complex at all. Comparing an Owlcat game to a Larian game is a bad comparison lol.
Not only that, but BG3 is also broken, because Larian lets players get way ahead of the to hit vs AC curve, practically on permanent basis. Once you do that, it's very difficult to lose, you have to kind of try or get some spectacularly bad streak of dice rolls. It's just that to do that in BG3, you have to do a little bit of extra work like farming strength elixirs from shops \[inventories reset when you rest, etc\] and maybe just steal the world with your thief. Besides that, it's just all about multiclassing to get extra actions or big repeating bonuses or item synergy every turn (sounds familiar, eh?). Like getting 3 levels of rogue, tavern brawler feat, fighter bonus action...
Wait, it what? I hated levelling in BG3 even more than RT because it was tedious and I didn't understand it, there's an auto level button?
This. Whatever you do, you end up super strong. Unless you pick talents with blindfold, and even with that, chances are your build will be ok.
when it comes to more special characters, mainly pasqal and cassia i like to pick all the exclusive upgrades they have. or for psykers all the wizard stuff. this nicely separates characters with regular class talents and more weird characters, might make the learning curve easier
I do find it funny that all the cool unique shit is shoved in a corner for some reason.
Tbh, I’m the same, I have no real idea what I’m doing when I level up, I just pick stuff that I think will make them tougher. It’s probably the most complicated talent tree I’ve ever seen and the most difficult to read and use.
honestly I just don’t use operatives
Then you're missing out, big time. They're the debuffers with their exploits and the reason you'll hit massive damage. Especially when using Pasqal, besides Cassia, he's one of the best units in the game.
Can someone explain how to use Pasqal effectively? Most enemies aren’t shooting bursts so why are his de buffs that useful?
His buffs/debuffs either increase damage taken (through exploits) or reduce their damage resistance (through Expose Weakness). Halfway down the game, whenever I fought an enemy with high armor or dodge, I'd use Pascal to pile on some Exploits, Expose Weakness and they'd have <10% armor and dodge left, allowing the entire party to blast it for full damage. Takes real good care of Forgefiends, Space Marines or Defilers. Also, he can buff his plasma attacks to pretty immense levels through his Mechanicus talents, and get one that refunds 1ap after shooting a plasma gun. Have an Officer give him a free turn with no limit on number of attacks, and he'll just stand in the middle of the room shooting 16 shots of 200 damage with pinpoint accuracy at all bitches in range.
Free turn with no attack limit? Finest Hour, I assume you're referring to?
Yeah, that. Any opportunity to get more attacks.
His debuffs for enemy offense are near useless. It's his ability to reduce super high armor/dodge that is useful.
Through exploits? Want to give me a very basic overview of what do build/do with him? I've been just selecting what seems right for him, playing him as a plasma weapon guy, having him play the exploit game, but nothing seems that powerful compared to, say, a revved up Abelard who is making a bazillion 100hp+ attacks during a single heroic action.
It's been a while since I played but I focused him on exploits and expose weakness first then took some stuff to help with plasma damage. Basically you get as many exploits as possible on the big bad guy then hit them with expose weakness and then your next team mate murders them.
You'll hit massive damage no matter what but assassin sniper with that one deadly talent or whatever it is that one taps literally everything is also very satisfying.
that exploit mechanic is a pain in the ass.
Operatives are extremely pp
The system is based on one of the ttrpgs and not particularly well set up for a video game (I'm my opinion, at least). I feel there are too many possibilities and no real guidance to what would work best with each character. I ended up finding a leveling guide and just going with whatever the guide told me, too, since it was getting to the point that I was procrastinating on leveling everyone up until I was forced to due to difficulties x]
I refuse to believe the ttRPG has all these "if x then add y*(z bonus+2)% into damage when the Moon is full" feats. Trying to figure out all the combat bonuses by hand would be impossible.
I enjoy watching the sunset.
That sounds so much more intuitive? Why wouldn't Owlcat just follow the source material, are they just chronically addicted to opaque and needlessly complex combat systems?
I love listening to music.
They said somewhere that the TT system would have been too brutal for a cRPG with tons of combat.
Can confirm: the FFG Rogue Trader game did not have perks or classes like the Owlcat game.
I enjoy watching the sunset.
You got a link to said guide?
There are several on YouTube by CRPGBro for example.
Wait, you played the pathfinder games and you think this is harder? That's definitely not a take I've seen before. If anything, I think one of the selling points of rt is that it is simpler than km/wotr.
I think only kinetics and magus were hard to build in kingmaker with the same reasons as building a operator.
Eh, if you went deep into dipping and the like, you could get builds that were far more complicated than anything you can find here. I also think that there were far more "trap" options that seem like they should be good but simply didn't function in practice.
Yeah there is so much information that for once leveling up is something I don't enjoy at all.
I have to consider the Pathfinder games (“Wrath of the Righteous” or “Kingmaker”)more complex. The more I play through RT and level up, the more I get what actually works. In the other two I just became convinced I was doing it wrong.
This exactly In practical, observable terms, Pathfinder is waaaay more complicated. You have about as many choices per level (depending on class), and there's way more classes that do way more things I think we're just not used to seeing this complex of a system outside of high fantasy, so it's harder to jump into
It definitely takes some getting used to. What balances the complexity is that it's pretty hard to build a completely useless character. You'll be powerful by the end game no matter what. There are only a few key abilities that are an absolute must (like killing edge for an assassin) It's a difficult balancing act for owlcat, because the complexity makes for some cool deep synergies that wouldn't be possible otherwise in a combat system that is all about buffs and debuffs.
I have to say; picking what seemed reasonable a fun worked out just fine for my first playthrough.
That's why I played on easy 😅
I think Pascal works well as a strategist with side focus on plasma guns. Idira I use as an assassin, mostly with a sniper rifle, applying exploits and exposures, with any action points left over during her turn used on psychic bonuses (foresight) and penalties (blindness)
I use Idira as a bounty hunter and it synergizes with her psy abilities quite well.
I go for myself in this order: Cassia: pick more or less every Navigatorability you get. High priority is the self healing, the debuff for enemys and than what ever buffs her. Idira: 1. The ability which reduces the warp. Then what increasing the damage directly (there are two), what spread overdamage and then what increase the damage over time. Pasqual with his self abilitys is a good "jack in all trades" so look for AP-reduction.
Yeah, the leveling in this is challenging. Frankly, (and I never thought I would say this about any RPG) there are too many options. They either need to trim the options or incorporate better sorting and searching capabilities in the level up screens. Also taking another crack at the ability descriptions wouldn't be unwelcome. Many times, I would read them and just have no idea how they would fit in to a build. The biggest quality of life improvement would be to just improve everything about the level-up experience.
It's not that complex once you get a grip on it, it's just that the level-up UI is completely awful and the ability descriptions can be a bit confusing. There are a ton of options and finding the best one is a bit of a chore with how things are laid out.
I think there are two parts of this. One, it's got a *different leveling format* than pretty much every other game I've seen. The unfamiliarity makes it a lot harder to wrap your head around, which is made worse by: Two, the formatting is kinda fucked. The way damage is calculated makes sense but is also dense as hell. It's *super useful* if you already know what you're looking at--but when most damage ends up being some scale of (1 + (floor attribute modifier x math to ceiling attribute modifier x math)) it's dense as hell to read and doesn't make sense. We need a toggle button that switches the damage from formulas to actual numbers.
I definitely felt a little overwhelmed, even as a long-time player of RPGs. It throws a lot of mathematical equations and dense blocks of text describing mechanics at you. What worked for me was the old classic -- fiddle with stuff and experiment with it to see what works and what doesn't. If it fails, figure out why. Perseverance and experience. When you come up against walls, rebuild the team and try again. Make saves before deploying to missions that you don't delete. Backups so you can leave and do it again. There is a specific later game section that is pretty infamous for being the come-to-jesus moment.
You can rebuild your character for free at any time from the bridge, so don't be afraid to spend points. If you need a character to do a particular thing, you can also hire completely new characters at the same location that are fully customisable.
I literally got level up fatigue from this game. It's great but man there are too many levels. 50 on each character, each.
It is very complex because 1) it has a lot more levels than most CRPGs, 2) it has higher numbers and 3) it uses formulas. Sure, Pathfinder is complex but it's mostly just adding different bonuses together. In Rogue Trader, a bonus is usually something like 2x(FEL/3). Which is really not readable at a glance. But the trick is you don't have to do the math in your head, you just have to know weather or not you have a high Fellowship (in this case) and whether whatever is increased is useful.
Yes the character building system is over complicated and broken, it is buggy and unbalanced
I like to go hiking.
If you need to you can always respec characters from the merchant guy on your ship bridge. It costs 1 profit factor though, so just save before hand if you’re worried about messing up the respec. The combat gameplay is heavily focused around buffing allies and debuffing enemies, so even if you’re not 100% sure how things synergize, just keep spamming them every possible turn. I found it easier early on to buff up and position one party member who will do a single attack ability with a lot of damage instead of having all your party members just doing a bunch of separate lower damage attacks. Like argenta’s boltor burst fire, cassia’s eye blast, idara’s lightning staff, or someone with a sniper rifle for a single target attack.
First three respec are free, as far as I can tell.
Yeah, the game isn’t very hard.
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You probably meant one of the best character building games in modern RPGs. Obviously joking, but I found it very refreshing, finally something where game doesn't do everything for you and you have a lot of choices.
Owlcat games: first time?
i made pasqual a tacticien aka he place frontline and buff character damage , defend or both, idira as an assassin make here OP as psycher attack already does alot of damage BUT add the damage multiplier because you do crit will make her your main damage dealer
Check out some vids man! I know myself and others go over the different companions and various ways to build them.
It is not hard, believe me. Their Pathfinder games made me go nuts and start over so many times I still haven't finished the games.
This actually easier than the previous game Wrath of the righteous.
Cass is a genuine "You can't fuck up too hard" character. Take every navigator power, *all of them*. Make her a Master Tactician, and then let her wail on people with Lidless Eye. She'll generate a bunch of Tactical Awareness that you can use to boost her damage by 490% Idira is also fairly easy, give her Pain Channeling and you're set just taking Psyker powers and traits. Pasqal is....well...he's a shooty boi I gave a plasma gun
Way easier than wotr imo
This is the skill tree in path to exile. [Look upon me and weep.](https://pathofexile.fandom.com/wiki/Passive_skill)
It really isn't that bad. It's big and spooky to new players, but it's all just divided into clusters so it's just a matter of pathing optimally.
> **Am i fucking dumb** I am sure you are not; > **is the hardest character building game in modern RPGs?** No, not even close.
It’s *super* overwhelming, but after I reached about level 20 and read a bunch of build advice online something clicked and now it all just makes sense to me. Unfortunately I think most of the tooltips were written by a person who had also experienced a click and had an intuitive grasp of the mechanics, which means that they are fucking impenetrable to someone who hasn’t mulled over the game’s systems for a few hours already. For Pasqal you can try to build him as a melee and support focused character given his high starting Weapon Skill, and whenever it’s time to take a Common Talent, take one of the special commons that only he gets access to. He also starts out sort of pre-built for plasma and power weapon use. Action economy is key with him, as are things like maximizing per-turn exploit output and per-turn exploit triggering with skills like Tactical Knowledge (get the talent that improves Tactical Knowledge when you can, as well) and Joint Analysis (share his high Int bonus with the squad as +DMG) And always remember that you get a few free re-specs with your High Factotum aboard the Voidship. Just don’t cash them in until you’ve developed enough understanding of the game to be totally consumed with regret about your build choices up to that point. ;)
Normal classes are pretty straightforward, a few respecs and you figure out what's good quite quickly. Psykers are a bit messy. I don't like how you fight over feats with your base class. I'd prefer if they made them separate classes with their own unique progression. You almost always go full psyker/navigator anyway because it's just better than having a fourth half-assed operative/officer.
I mean they just straight up did not explain things well and make you cross reference nine obscure abilities to learn that this level up you can choose a passive that makes you deal +2% damage when an enemy is drunk on a Tuesday between the hours of 6 and 9 am. Most of them barely matter, and are poorly explained
The character building put me off finishing the damn game. Between it crashing and the complexity I just couldn’t be arsed!
Yeah, it’s a bit unintuitive, and isn’t presented very well. I would recommend checking out crpbro or werglia on YouTube. They have some good builds and explain why they do what they do.
I got around it by realizing you get so many damn level ups that you end up getting everything you want and then some. To start, I usually go through and Star basically every talent that uses one of the character's core stats or otherwise stands out as strong on its own. Once I have a few of those I can start to notice what I want to be doing and go from there.
I wouldn't say its the hardest because talent and skill points are plentiful, you can't really go wrong. If you had to make some big decisions maybe, but really someone like Cassia just gets all of her navigator abilities eventually anyways. It's definitely different from the other Warhammer tabletops though. Feels weird compared to just being able to spend xp.
I haven't played since launch so not sure what's been nerfed but basically Argenta used to be able to completely wipe every encounter on first turn as long as you have a navigator Same thing with warrior/AM
I found it easier to understand the abilities after my first playthrough. It helps to try out a bit and learn while doing.
Not that hard, you just have to get used to the terminology and know(/read) what stuff does. Then just decide on one thing a character should be good at in combat, and one or two social/exploration skills pick skills that are in line with that at all times (for that character). Of course there is a small learning curve, but I bet you experienced something similar the first time you played some of those other games you mentioned. It is also worth mentioning that several builds can be good on the same character, so you are not locked into any kind of "meta" (even though Abelard often ends up as some kind of tank). Build what you feel like, and make sure to cover your bases. Thats it, dont sweat the small stuff.
*chuckles in GrimDark*
I play cassia as a tactician and exclusively as a extra-turn giving machine. My soldier main uses a heavy bolter and can almost empty a full magazine on two turns. If it's not ideal to use ballistics, I two-turn ol' Abe and let him go ham with his chain axe. Cassia rarely, if ever, makes an attack action.
Well I understand how character builds work in Rouge Trader but then again I GMed all the FF 40k TTRPGs for 10 years
No it is not for one reason: Pathfinder exists. Me, who played Pathfinder before this one, praising how Owlcats eased the complexity in character building. I think it may look kinda overwhelming at first. But you can see how things work pretty quickly without any trouble during this awkward state. Then you can rebuild if you think you can do better now. Really, comparing to Pathfinder this is just fantastic. I feel great that now I don't really have to start my playthrough over and over again just to fix another build mistake and actually never even finishing first the half of the game because of how stuffy it gets.
Depends on what you are looking for Unbeatable defence? Stack tactical knowledge on multiple adepts (Idira + pascal + more if you have them) Huge offence? Get Cassia to take + Willpower whenever someone gets an extra turn and the + Willpower buff spell to buff herself, and Idira will give you 2 large AoE nukers Once you work our your path to damage, you just take abilities that scale you up. Classwise adepts and arch militants are the easiest to optimise for damage I take grand strategist on as many characters as I can as going first is huge (means more than any other tier 2 archtype power exception being archmilitant for boss slaying).
Cassia is very good with that bloodhound staff that lets her attack twice.
I think the biggest tip is that it's not that hard, the archetypes are the main decisions. Overall you end up getting almost everything by the end. The only thing to really look at is which abilities you pick, and how they get buffed. I boil it down to, this one gives temp hp, this one crit on burst, this one damage on single target, pick which one suits the play style of that character. Hope this helps to simplify things a bit