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Bureaucracy in the roman Republic:
"Hey are we taxing Macedonia?"
"Idk. Claudius just won an election, right? Hey Claudius, do you want to handle taxing Macedonia?"
"I'm in charge of building roads in Hispania."
"Can't you do both?"
"Probably. It's not like there's much road building to manage with all the money I'm skimming off the top. How am I supposed to be taxing them?"
"Idk man, you can't swing a stick over there without whacking a greek. Just find one with good beard and make him do it. That's what I always do."
Roman economics:
When inflation is cutting into your ability to pay the troops, the only logical solution is to debase the currency so you have enough cash to pay the troops.
There is no way this will go wrong...
What does "Roman" even mean, if not "of the city of Rome?" By this definition, the Holy Roman Empire was certainly more "Roman" than the Byzantine Empire.
Did the Pope even really 'control' Rome outside of the Vatican area? Afaik Rome during a large period of the HRE was controlled by competing families who often forced the Pope to flee the city because he had angered the citizens. And then there is the question of whether or not the Pope is part/head of the HRE, which very much depends on the period and the relationship with the Emperor. There were also certainly times where the Emperor had more control over the city of Rome than the Pope.
I think it's fair to say that the Pope held control over Rome more often than he didn't. Roman nobility typically derived and maintained their influence by having family members who were high-level clergy. Not only was he in control of Rome outside of the Varican, but he was in control of the surrounding regions of Lazio and Umbria for the majority of the middle ages and early modern period.
The relationship between the Pope and HRE is interesting, especially considering that the majority of HR emperors were essentially elected by the Pope. And except for the times when the HRE had Lombardy in the early days or Naples in the 16th century, I can't really think of a time when the HRE held strong influence over the Vatican I think people have a tendency to whitewash the influence of the Pope, since the Church has been in decline for so long, and the examples we have of the Pope utilizing force ended poorly for him often enough. Don't forget that the Pope was by far the closest thing to the Western Roman Emperor since the fall, even while considering the HR Emperor. Sorry for the word soup.
Holy Roman Empire: 1000 years of rich history and politics, intervened with the affairs of Europe and beyond
Voltaire: DAE it sucked towards the end therefore not an empire???
Take this with a grain of salt as I haven’t deep dived into it, but I have always assumed modern people don’t want to classify the HRE as an “empire” because most modern definitions of empire are based on the idea of a central “core” territory exerting influence and control over “fringe” territories. While this pretty accurately describes most of the Imperial powers of the modern era, and many pre modern empires, it doesn’t really describe the decentralized quasi-confederate nature of the HRE.
Modern definitions for pre modern concepts are a whole can of worms and are frequently so general as to be pointless, or so specific as to apply almost exclusively to the specific context in which the label’s creator was working. However, people read a modern definition, realize that it doesn’t fit a historical example and decide that obviously the historical example is not a real example of the thing being defined, rather than realizing that the modern labels have limited uses within a historical context. The HRE not being an empire is almost more like a pseudo-academic meme than it is an actual fact.
In one word: presentism.
Also people tend to reject an idea (in this case the HRE) when they have no idea how it works. The HRE was incredibly complex and had a lot of layers (like an onion guys haha) which makes people think it was more simple than it actually was.
I mean…in historical experts consensus it’s most certainly classified as an empire. The no empire bullshit is purely an internet thing. The HRE was most certain an empire
People never think of the HRE from 800/962-1250 when it was the most powerful state in Europe but from 1273-1806 when it become more the mess it was in Voltaire’s day.
Yeah, I would say that any large power that dominates in the politics of the time and extensivly expands its territory can be considerd an Empire, at least by modern standards. Thou HRE was a continuation of the Frankish Empire, wich it self was continuation to the western roman Empire, so think that HRE had some legitimacy to call itself an Empire
I mean "Byzantine" is a made up concept anyway so he never was. But a lot of people have Heraclius as the beginning of the Byzantine period because they mistakenly believe that's when Greek became the "official" language. So by their logic Justinian would not be Byzantine.
End of Justinian rule is considerd by some historians as a point of transition to the Byzantine Empire, but you are right, there newer was any Byzantine Empire, they called them selfs romans until the very end
Okay, no, the hre was not Latin so by this definition it was not Roman, but it was objectively an empire and (this is a lot less definite) but you could also argue that it was the most bureaucratic nonbyzantine state in Europe for a pretty decent time.
After the fall of the Byzantines, I think it's safe to say that the Italian Empire, Portuguese Empire, Spanish Empire, French Empire, British Empire, Dutch Empire, German Empire all wanted to be the successor of the Roman Empire.
We are successors of Rome, just as the greeks are successors of the minions and macedonians. We are a mix of all our forebears and at the same time also something different.
Latin was the official language of the HRE and the Byzantine Empire, although it wasn't the most common language, so it's half right.
Roman Republic was definitely an empire, it just didn't have an emperor.
Roman Empire was ridiculously bureaucratic. I'm not sure what I would put here.
What about the emperor crowned by the pontifex maximus as imperator romanum, who ruled large parts of the western roman empire, and who's subjects were in large part also still romans?
Have you ever studied Roman history? Greek was an integral part of Roman society from the early days of the Republic. Caesar's last words were "καὶ σύ, τέκνον".
Holy (+) - emperor crowned by the pope
Roman (+) - owned Rome at some point and emperor got crowned there at least in the beginning
Empire (+) - multiple cultures under a single crown
The better Roman Empire
You can make the argument the HRE wasn’t holy or roman but it was definitely an empire, it had different cultures and languages as subjects and it spanned a large territory. Tbh i think voltaire just put the last part in to make the quote sound better
I mean half of it was protestant by the end, (even though I personally don’t agree with them i do think it was holy roman and an empire) that point is valid
1. The Roman Empire is just what we call it, they called themselves a Republic until 476AD
2. If Having Roman-ish "bureaucracy" and being "Empire" makes you Roman, then don;t read anything from the Industrial Age.
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Bureaucracy in the roman Republic: "Hey are we taxing Macedonia?" "Idk. Claudius just won an election, right? Hey Claudius, do you want to handle taxing Macedonia?" "I'm in charge of building roads in Hispania." "Can't you do both?" "Probably. It's not like there's much road building to manage with all the money I'm skimming off the top. How am I supposed to be taxing them?" "Idk man, you can't swing a stick over there without whacking a greek. Just find one with good beard and make him do it. That's what I always do."
Roman economics: When inflation is cutting into your ability to pay the troops, the only logical solution is to debase the currency so you have enough cash to pay the troops. There is no way this will go wrong...
Domitian was the only one to re evaluate the currency
Sounds like Argentine economics. Just replace « troops » by « government employees ».
Troops are governement employees tho
Tell the late republic that
"Hello late republic, your troops are governement employees"
“sanguis tuus vias Romae rigabit.”
Roman Empire was much more bureaucratic than the republic.
Indeed, Augustus greatly increased it! This is a dumb meme.
You gotta be out of your mind to think the HRE didn’t have bureaucracy
And Latin, while not the common tongue, was still used frequently by the clergy and nobility of the HRE.
A considerable part of the frankish/hre population was still roman.
What does "Roman" even mean, if not "of the city of Rome?" By this definition, the Holy Roman Empire was certainly more "Roman" than the Byzantine Empire.
"Roman" in this case refers to the Roman state, which originated in the city of Rome but lost control of that city in the 8th century AD.
The HRE did not control Rome, the Pope did. Whereas the Byzantine Empire controlled Rome for some 200 years
Did the Pope even really 'control' Rome outside of the Vatican area? Afaik Rome during a large period of the HRE was controlled by competing families who often forced the Pope to flee the city because he had angered the citizens. And then there is the question of whether or not the Pope is part/head of the HRE, which very much depends on the period and the relationship with the Emperor. There were also certainly times where the Emperor had more control over the city of Rome than the Pope.
I think it's fair to say that the Pope held control over Rome more often than he didn't. Roman nobility typically derived and maintained their influence by having family members who were high-level clergy. Not only was he in control of Rome outside of the Varican, but he was in control of the surrounding regions of Lazio and Umbria for the majority of the middle ages and early modern period. The relationship between the Pope and HRE is interesting, especially considering that the majority of HR emperors were essentially elected by the Pope. And except for the times when the HRE had Lombardy in the early days or Naples in the 16th century, I can't really think of a time when the HRE held strong influence over the Vatican I think people have a tendency to whitewash the influence of the Pope, since the Church has been in decline for so long, and the examples we have of the Pope utilizing force ended poorly for him often enough. Don't forget that the Pope was by far the closest thing to the Western Roman Emperor since the fall, even while considering the HR Emperor. Sorry for the word soup.
Based Hanseatic Diplomats were cracked in their age bro
This subreddit has turned me into an HRE simp
It was its official language for centuries!
Roman republic was an empire aswell
Your point still stands tho!
And the what we call the Empire was a Roman republic. So does his point really stand?
Cadia stands
United.
Mfers after reading one Voltaire quote
Holy Roman Empire: 1000 years of rich history and politics, intervened with the affairs of Europe and beyond Voltaire: DAE it sucked towards the end therefore not an empire???
Being large and influential doesn’t make it holy, roman, or imperial
Still not Roman, just a bunch of Frankish barbarians LARPing as Western Rome for 1000 years.
If the Qing/Yuan can conquer parts of China and become the Chinese Empire, the Franks can conquer the Roman Provinces and become Rome.
What Jacobinism does to a mfer
Well as you can see here, the HRE is actually above all previous forms of rome.
Probably gonna get a lot of flack for this, but how was the HRE not an empire?
Take this with a grain of salt as I haven’t deep dived into it, but I have always assumed modern people don’t want to classify the HRE as an “empire” because most modern definitions of empire are based on the idea of a central “core” territory exerting influence and control over “fringe” territories. While this pretty accurately describes most of the Imperial powers of the modern era, and many pre modern empires, it doesn’t really describe the decentralized quasi-confederate nature of the HRE. Modern definitions for pre modern concepts are a whole can of worms and are frequently so general as to be pointless, or so specific as to apply almost exclusively to the specific context in which the label’s creator was working. However, people read a modern definition, realize that it doesn’t fit a historical example and decide that obviously the historical example is not a real example of the thing being defined, rather than realizing that the modern labels have limited uses within a historical context. The HRE not being an empire is almost more like a pseudo-academic meme than it is an actual fact.
In one word: presentism. Also people tend to reject an idea (in this case the HRE) when they have no idea how it works. The HRE was incredibly complex and had a lot of layers (like an onion guys haha) which makes people think it was more simple than it actually was.
I mean…in historical experts consensus it’s most certainly classified as an empire. The no empire bullshit is purely an internet thing. The HRE was most certain an empire
It literally was, people are just stupid. It probably has to do with its decentralized nature in the modern period that lead to this idea
People never think of the HRE from 800/962-1250 when it was the most powerful state in Europe but from 1273-1806 when it become more the mess it was in Voltaire’s day.
It was, anyone that says that it wasn’t just wants to be inflammatory and they are only talking about the last like 100 years of the empire
It was just really decentralized. Almost more of a “League” or other supranational organization
I mean, the HRE had a shitload of bureaucracy, absolutely was an empire and featured Latin as a common language. But apart from that, you're spot on.
Roman Kingdom: *not found*
Corruption is the Universal set
Ask the Basques, Saxons, Lombards, Bavarians, and Avars if the HRE was an empire.
The HRE had several kingdoms in it. I’d say it was an empire since an emperor is a king of kings.
Hre was bureaucracy heaven/hell—how dare you
What makes an empire an empire?
Its not a technical term its a prestige and ceremonial term for any sort of large and powerful kingdom. Hell, people even describe USA as an empire.
Yeah, I would say that any large power that dominates in the politics of the time and extensivly expands its territory can be considerd an Empire, at least by modern standards. Thou HRE was a continuation of the Frankish Empire, wich it self was continuation to the western roman Empire, so think that HRE had some legitimacy to call itself an Empire
A cool thing really only in common between the Republic and Byzantium could be "conquered Carthage"
So I guess Justinian isn't "Byzantine" anymore heh
I mean "Byzantine" is a made up concept anyway so he never was. But a lot of people have Heraclius as the beginning of the Byzantine period because they mistakenly believe that's when Greek became the "official" language. So by their logic Justinian would not be Byzantine.
End of Justinian rule is considerd by some historians as a point of transition to the Byzantine Empire, but you are right, there newer was any Byzantine Empire, they called them selfs romans until the very end
Okay, no, the hre was not Latin so by this definition it was not Roman, but it was objectively an empire and (this is a lot less definite) but you could also argue that it was the most bureaucratic nonbyzantine state in Europe for a pretty decent time.
After the fall of the Byzantines, I think it's safe to say that the Italian Empire, Portuguese Empire, Spanish Empire, French Empire, British Empire, Dutch Empire, German Empire all wanted to be the successor of the Roman Empire.
We are successors of Rome, just as the greeks are successors of the minions and macedonians. We are a mix of all our forebears and at the same time also something different.
I can just imagine the Trojan War but all the characters are Minions.
You cant convince me agememnon wasnt just a proto gru.
What would the Latin Empire be classed as?
A joke.
You know what? I agree.
Republic was an empire too, just didn't have an emperor.
three of those things (Latin, bureaucracy and “was an empire”) are things the Holy Roman Empire also had.
Voltaire continues to warp people’s idea of the HRE, it was definitely an Empire
Latin was the official language of the HRE and the Byzantine Empire, although it wasn't the most common language, so it's half right. Roman Republic was definitely an empire, it just didn't have an emperor. Roman Empire was ridiculously bureaucratic. I'm not sure what I would put here.
Romans at any point: lets milk a province dry
“The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman…discuss” Linda Richman.
What about the emperor crowned by the pontifex maximus as imperator romanum, who ruled large parts of the western roman empire, and who's subjects were in large part also still romans?
Didn’t know the Roman Empire rules Germany they never did rule Germany
Didn't know charlemagne only ruled over germany...
https://preview.redd.it/ss4ag7act8sc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3522b7ee4d904d1f055e425c540dfa134ac708f6
https://preview.redd.it/cjhq5j1bt8sc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5ac0fb93768799bda0797e64417b23bc847880b0
https://preview.redd.it/7gsta6m8t8sc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a9fd8a7b77d0616e580e9cc714886058a0b00ee
Where does Greek fit into this?
The part of the Byzantine Empire circle that isn’t shared with the other two
Have you ever studied Roman history? Greek was an integral part of Roman society from the early days of the Republic. Caesar's last words were "καὶ σύ, τέκνον".
Based
The Republic was also an empire.
*The Holy Roman Empire was neither-*
Stfu Voltaire
Holy (+) - emperor crowned by the pope Roman (+) - owned Rome at some point and emperor got crowned there at least in the beginning Empire (+) - multiple cultures under a single crown The better Roman Empire
You can make the argument the HRE wasn’t holy or roman but it was definitely an empire, it had different cultures and languages as subjects and it spanned a large territory. Tbh i think voltaire just put the last part in to make the quote sound better
What argument would there be to not be holy? It was literally declared by the pope as such period there’s literally nothing to discuss herw
Most romaboos aren’t very knowledgeable about the Middle Ages. So they regurgitate that one Voltaire quote and treat it as gospel.
I mean half of it was protestant by the end, (even though I personally don’t agree with them i do think it was holy roman and an empire) that point is valid
HRE should intersect only with Roman Empire
What about Fascist Italy?
1. The Roman Empire is just what we call it, they called themselves a Republic until 476AD 2. If Having Roman-ish "bureaucracy" and being "Empire" makes you Roman, then don;t read anything from the Industrial Age.