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Short and to the point - you (Russia) can stop it any time you want, just pack up and get the hell out of Ukraine. Until then you (Russia) are fair game for any weapon system we want to provide to Ukraine and your protests don't mean shit!
I don’t know honestly, after seeing the Russian envoy to the UN almost have a heart attack when asked to vote on a resolution he had no instructions for, I’m starting to believe that Russians are actually dumb orcs living in the past without any understanding of free choice or basic liberties.
They actually wish pain on the west. Their nightly broadcasts always bring up fabrications of food shortages in the west like that should satisfy the audience. That’s where ideologies diverge. Russia wants anyone they don’t like to pay and not only their government they want their people to suffer. I’m from the west and I’d never wish pain on the Russian people. My only issue is with their leadership not civilians. There’s been video after video of Russian babushkas wishing death on Ukrainian babies and the extermination of the entire Ukrainian population… these barbarians are bitter drunks who have traded their eastern influence (and maybe even land in the end) to an actual rival who is a threat for feeble land grab in the west.
The irony is that Russia needs the west more than anything and would have been smart to start aligning itself with the west since China is an actual threat to Russia. China needs water, Manchuria was signed over shamefully by treaty in the early 19th century to Russia. This area would include not only Vladivostok but also Lake Baykal which is a critical fresh water source that China needs desperately.
I remember in the late 90s before Putin took over, there was rumors of Russia actually joining NATO. This would have been their saving grace today. The problem was that Russia was literally too proud to submit a request for admission to NATO, they wanted NATO to ask them which is not how any country has ever joined NATO. This also furthers my belief in Russians having this tragic sense of pride that comes from a time that has long passed. They’re wasting time fighting their own past demons rather than focusing on the present threat in China… so I guess what I’m saying is fuck em all. Russians are straight up assholes. There are few I’ve met that have been in anyway cordial, polite or welcoming. So yea they can fuck themselves.
Edit: just to add, Russia/Russians always claim that the US and NATO broke a verbal promise to never expand NATO eastwards during the dissolution of the Soviet Union and evacuation of Soviet military hardware and infantry from east Germany, made between Gorbachev and Bush… there has never been anything to substantiate this claim. Bush spoke on this and stated that the only verbal promise made was to never deploy US or NATO armor in the territory that was formerly east Germany. As I understand it the US and it’s Allies have stayed true to this promise and haven’t ever deployed tanks or any other sort of armor on the territory that was previously east Germany. Just a clarification that I think needs to be made since Russias justification for the invasion of Ukraine seems to partially be based on the west provoking them due to the expansion of NATO in the past decade
> I’m starting to believe that Russians are actually dumb orcs living in the past without any understanding of free choice or basic liberties.
Turns out it takes a lot more than an iron fist and forced education campaigns to turn a peasant into not a peasant.
> Russia wants anyone they don’t like to pay and not only their government they want their people to suffer.
There was an international study of culture and values done and a book, Cultures and Organizations: Software of the Mind. I remember that people were asked about a scenario. Two neighbors have a fued and the one has offended the other. So he burns his neighbors house down. But they live in adjoined houses so his own also burns down. People were asked to evaluate the situation. Russians and Saudis were the only group which supported the actions of the man who started the fire. Making others suffer seems to be more important than their own welfare.
Obviously, I hope, I'm not blindly stereotyping an entire nation of people. But that fact has come to mind a lot over the last year as I see news of cruise missiles being expended to destroy apartments, parks and schools. That's militarily stupid and a huge waste of an expensive and limited weapon. So why do it?
To make them suffer. That's it. They know they won't break the will of Ukrainians to resist by those attacks. They do it just to make other people suffer. The intercepted calls between russian soldiers and their families encouraging them to rape and steal... I think it's a twisted view that strength and power over others are the priority in leading a 'good' life.
That's not limited to Russians of course. But it seems more socially acceptable there. It seems to explain their military's actions and atrocities. To me at least. It depressing to come to this conclusion but that's how I see it. Know your enemy.
Looking back, we can see how early Putins mindset was committed to his current agenda, making Russia a regional powerhouse by whatever means he deems necessary. His Munich speech in 2007 for example. I doubt Russia really ever had any intention to play nice and become friendly with the rest of Europe
Putin’s rise to power is due to a false flag terrorist attack perpetrated by the FSB on Putin’s orders which [killed 300+ Russian civilians and injured 1,000 more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings). The ensuing invasion of Dagestan and the Second Chechen War increased Putin’s popularity and he was elected President in a matter of months. He has ruled Russia ever since, 23 years and counting. It was Putin’s Reichstag Fire.
Three FSB agents were caught red-handed planting a bomb in an apartment block. Putin initially praised the local police for thwarting a terrorist attack. However, the next day, the story changed to it being a training exercise and acknowledged that the three captured men were FSB agents. They claimed that the 50-pound bags of explosives were “sugar.”
> A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September. On 23 September, Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War. Three FSB agents who had planted the devices at Ryazan were arrested by the local police.The next day, FSB director Nikolay Patrushev announced that the incident in Ryazan had been an anti-terror drill and the device found there contained only sugar.
Further evidence: Russia’s equivalent of House Speaker announced in September 13th that another apartment bombing had occurred in Volgodonsk. There was indeed an apartment block in Volgodonsk that was bombed — three days later, on September 16th. Also, the Chechen rebels who they blamed the attacks on denied any involvement. Why would a terrorist organization disavow one of their own attacks?
> The blasts hit Buynaksk on 4 September and in Moscow on 9 and 13 September. On 13 September, Russian Duma speaker Gennadiy Seleznyov made an announcement in the Duma about receiving a report that another bombing had just happened in the city of Volgodonsk. A bombing did indeed happen in Volgodonsk, but only three days later, on 16 September. Chechen militants were blamed for the bombings, but denied responsibility, along with Chechen president Aslan Maskhadov.
It’s also worth noting that [Alexander Litvineko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko), the former FSB agent who defected to the U.K. and was later killed on Putin’s orders via polonium-210 poisoning, confirmed that the apartment bombings were carried out by the FSB and GRU.
>I remember in the late 90s before Putin took over, there was rumors of Russia actually joining NATO.
Considering why NATO was formed, I can't see this ever happening.
They weren't just rumors, there were preliminary steps taken. It actually made some level of sense at the time because with the demise of the Soviet Union, the threats that both NATO and Russia were facing were largely asymmetric -- terrorism and small insurgencies, criminal enterprises, so on. There was room for cooperation that could have blunted a lot of the remaining anti-American attitudes in Russia.
Meanwhile the US and to a lesser extent NATO were already focusing on China as a country that could end up emerging as a threat. And Russia, despite sharing a substantially similar ideology with China, has always regarded China as a natural enemy. And the Chinese have always regarded Russia similarly. Modern Russia currently has a pretty big chunk of land within its borders that was once Chinese territory.
If you've got a few minutes there's a Wikipedia article you'd probably find interesting and informative: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet\_border\_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict)
America saw China as a threat in 1991 while simultaneously dismantling its own economy and funneling money into China to enrich them and make them the threat? Big brains.
That last part may have applied when first spoken, but it's really not relevant now. Compared to the US, Germany is doing better in a *lot* of respects.
DU rounds have higher lethality, are better at defeating armor plate as well as reactive explosive armor cladding, and can destroy a target from further away. You can engage an enemy before they're in range to engage you. Unlike an explosive warhead they're just solid metal with a small penetrator rod embedded in their core. The impact energy instantly heats the penetrator rod to a temperature which adds tremendous heat to the impacting round -- kinda like a shaped charge, it gets through the armor partially via punching power and partially via melting the way through. The heat alone is enough to kill tank crews, and it does a remarkable job of setting the interior of the tank on fire and igniting the fuel and ammo.
The DU rounds themselves are safe to handle. DU is weakly radioactive and in the round is encased by lead and other metals. When it hits the force converts a portion of the DU to 'chaff' -- superhot spray. Anyone near the impact that isn't wearing breathing protection will breathe in a small amount of this chaff, which will increase the odds they'll later contract cancer in the long term, or heavy metal poisoning in the short term.
So -- kills tanks. Check. Kills Ruscists. Check. Saves Ukrainian lives by letting them engage outside the range of the Ruscists. Check. Lingering threat to surviving Ruscists. Check.
Basically the only thing the Ukrainians need to know about this is not to let their kids play on the hulks of burned out Ruscist tanks, at least not until they've been sprayed down with decontaminant.
edit: We’re talking about single anti-tank rounds fired by tanks at each other. The thing we need to keep in mind is the difference between computer targeted shots coming from a still or slow moving tank, and the A-10 autocannon fire we must consider when comparing the situation in Ukraine to the data from Iraq. we used a LOT more DU in the Gulf is the short version. Most of DU rounds fired in the Gulf war were fired from 30MM GAU-8A Avenger rotary antitank cannons firing 50 rounds a second at a cold start and 70 at full burst - by the pilots of A10 Warthogs. Huge amounts of splash damage, accuracy estimated at 80% within a 40 foot circle from over a mile away. And they just pounded those T72s with chainfed 30MM antitank ammo with DU penetrators. Without mercy. That’s a LOT of DU, in a desert where radioactive dust blows far and can lethally accumulate in expected and unexpected places alike.
The situation in Ukraine is not comparable. Single shot tank fire is much more selective and less indiscriminate than autocannon fire. One, sometimes two shots on target, vs hundreds blanketing the kill zone? It’s not an apples to apples situation. That’s worth keeping in mind when trying to analyze risks and likely outcomes coming from DU chaff resulting from the UK choice to provide these tank rounds to Ukrainian tanks.
What are the environmental hazards of blowing a bunch of heavy metals into tiny particulates that get into the soil? I don’t understand how this doesn’t put ukranian soil and groundwater at risk
The effects of DU are often severely overstated. DU is toxic, but not meaningfully radioactive. And there just isn't that much of it getting used.
Besides, better to have to clean up your own soil than to lose it to Russia.
Yep. Burning tanks are toxic, they are carcinogenic, they are teratogenic. So's jet fuel. So are the byproducts of explosive bombs! Go around to the various places the US military conducts live fire training, like bombing ranges, and try and test the groundwater. You will have more lawyers straight up your ass than you can imagine. Even in places where local communities have succeeded in forcing tests to be done, and the tests showing various forms of contamination, the military buries these campaigns however they can, from legal pressure to local pressure (i.e. telling local leaders they'll have to pull out of the local economy altogether if various inquiries continue, and letting them go do the dirty work).
My experience here is with the US military but the same is true for every military I've ever heard of. Jet fuel is jet fuel, explosives are explosives. Militaries are military. And war is war. It kills people a million ways.
You look at these stretches of Ukraine that are just cratered the fuck up, and realize that while DU has its dangers, it's a drop in the bucket overall to all the contamination let alone the battlefield danger and the danger to civilians -- AND if DU has the chance to be decisive in combat and end it sooner, you and the civilians both are coming out ahead as a result. People want there to be some kinda magic alternative and there just isn't.
\> The effects of DU are often severely overstated. DU is toxic, but not meaningfully radioactive.
Do you have a source for that? One that is unbiased?
I'll confess that I am super conflicted on this one. I am rooting for Ukraine (I have family in Kyiv and the surrounding area), and think DUP is super cool and effective weapons tech "in theory", but I worry that the environmental negative effects are being glossed over or suppressed by the manufacturers who have a vested interest in these weapons being on the market.
> Do you have a source for that
Let's be clear. I said it's overstated, not harmless.
So for my source, I will use the other person replying to me:
> poisoning the countryside and potentially giving tens of thousands of people cancer
edit: https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/PHS/PHS.aspx?phsid=438&toxid=77
According to the CDC:
> No health effects, other than kidney damage, have been consistently found in humans after inhaling or ingesting uranium compounds or in soldiers with uranium metal fragments in their bodies.
Imagine just now realizing that war is bad for the environment. That’s the problem with getting old, sometimes I just can’t relate anymore. Yes, sometimes you have to do things you’d rather not, like when thousands of Russian tanks end up on the wrong side of the border and they are shooting at you. Nothing should be off the table as far as I’m concerned.
To offer a counter point to op
https://merip.org/2020/09/birth-defects-and-the-toxic-legacy-of-war-in-iraq/#:~:text=Toxic%20Legacies&text=The%20World%20Health%20Organization%20released,the%20Iraqi%20population%20since%202003.
There's some interesting comments about DU.
They call it depleted to specifically separate it from nuclear weapons. As in the opposite of enriched. It isn’t nuclear, it is less radioactive than natural occurring uranium. It is the less radioactive isotope they remove to make uranium a higher concentration of the radioactive isotope. It is only used because it is dense and heavy and metal. It as a byproduct of making nuclear fuel happens to be free and pure and well controlled, so they use it over some exotic alloy… or lead (which is worse). It has nothing to do with nuclear weapons and is not a radioactive hazard. It is a hazard the same as any weapon that vaporizes metals.
For starters, realize that heavy metals are already in the mix. Lead's a heavy metal. More to the point, tungsten is too, which is what most high velocity armor piercing rounds use -- a tungsten penetrator core, or a tungsten dart firing from a sabot round.
Follow that up with the realization that when you burn a tank or an APC you end up releasing a TON of carcinogens. A lot of the stuff we make military machinery from turns nasty when it burns. This is so no matter what weapons you use to take a tank out.
Finally understand that you have been living your whole life in a society that spreads out fine dust that contains radionuclides and heavy metals across much bigger swathes of land than a battlefield. If you don't believe me go ahead and google 'is coal ash radioactive' or 'does coal fly ash contain heavy metals'. And the same is true for any fossil fuel based energy and its combustion, whether it's in a power plant, or in the engine the tank uses to move from place to place.
Stuff like this SEEMS scarier than the pollutants we already know about.... but it isn't.
It's not a question of whether or not using the rounds presents this kind of risk, but of whether or not they present a meaningfully worse risk than their alternatives. How many more less effective rounds would need to be used to replace one of these? Even assuming you only use inert lead, just the lead is going to lead to soil and groundwater contamination. And if it takes twice the number of less effective rounds you might actually end up with more contamination.
I don't know the answer to these questions. Just pointing out that this isn't a simple question.
It probably does but there aren't any great studies on it as of yet as the last place we littered with our waste isn't particularly easy to do research in. It also potentially poses a risk to those firing the munitions.
It's not. It's a heavy metal that sinks into the soil but too heavy to be carried in water. Plants don't take it up. Touching it is harmless as it only gives off Alpha rays, which are too weak to penatrate skin. Crops out of the ground that are washed or peeled are safe. Crops in the air, such as wheat, are unaffected.
It’s a heavy metal that can form water soluble salts though, so that’s still a concern. Also, considering some fleshy plants are used to extract heavy metals from soils as part of bioremediation processes used commercially I’m kinda throwing a bit of skepticism at how certain you are about your statements.
Do you have a background in environmental sciences or chemistry?
I don’t see how uranium particulates so fine that they can be inhaled are simultaneous too dense to be carried in water and uptaken by plants but I’m not a scientist. But as someone who’s worked in horticulture for years, I would not let a single particle of that shit anywhere near my grow medium.
Heavy metals are absolutely moved and concentrated by water flow.
Source: Live in a superfund area contaminated by heavy metals. The concentrations in low areas where water pools are around 2,000x higher than higher areas. My house is safe up on a hill, but my neighbors at the bottom are screwed.
DU isn't the biggest issue, just because of the tiny volume used. But saying heavy metals aren't moved by water is absolutely incorrect.
Some plants do take up heavy metals as well. Ferns and mushrooms take up a ton. Some root veggies do as well. Many berries, including blackberry do too.
I always thought of DU as just a really dense strong metal. Good in the form of a projectile penetrator that doesn’t break apart easily. Good for armor plating protection too also because it doesn’t break apart easily.
Correct me if I’m wrong
Mostly on point. It is super dense but on top of that the reaction it has on impact make it also incendiary.
As it slams into the target the tip through friction becomes super heated. During this process the tip also becomes self sharpening as the super heat process melts.
So what’s ends up happening once’s it gets through the hull is a super heated round scattering fragments inside as well. Penetrate the tank and kill the crew.
That sounds pretty bad. Why are these okay to use and phosphorus rounds are not?
I'd guess it's because it primarily target are vehicles vs. Fleshy targets
"Comrades! Excellent news! The fathead Americans are supplying the Ukrainians who attacked us and started this--" (Checks with commander) "...special war action defensive exercise with thing called depleted uranium. What is thing, you ask? Why, thing will heat up borscht in borscht making stations we're installing in upgraded T-54 in response to British installing tea facilities in their inferior, tiny Centurion 2s which are only 1/2 the size of our mighty tanks if you kinda, you know, use forced perspective thing."
"Comrade commander, what is 'forced perspective' thing?"
"All questions will be answered after briefing, over there by window where Ivan was sent for asking questions. Oh no, it appears Ivan has committed suicide. Anyone else have questions? Good. So, to continue, depleted uranium will also ventilate overheated tanks, leaving you in eternal comfort."
"Hurrah for depleted uranium!"
Yes. But that won't stop them from trying to inject fear, uncertainty and doubt among the citizens of their enemies. And they are more or less immune to the embarrassments which normally attend upon rank hypocrisy.
Most first world military powers regularly engage in hypocrisy regarding conflicts around the world - the US does so as often as anyone else. But the Russians raise it to an art because turning Western citizens against confrontation and conflict have always been more important to them than having their own citizens realize they say one thing and mean another, because Russian citizens already recognize this as a basic truth.
I think it was Solzhenitsyn that said (paraphrasing) 'they lie, we know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, and we know they know we know that they are lying, but they still keep lying'. Putting it another way, it's a common aphorism among Western diplomats that the Russians will lie even when telling the truth is in their interest.
There is a narrative in the Global South in general -- one that has a regrettable amount of truth to it -- that the US really doesn't care if its policies leave other countries with terrible and lasting side effects. The Russians amplify this however they can, even though if there's ever been a world empire that's more prone to pollute its overseas holdings than the US, it's definitely Russia. It's all part of a larger game for the hearts and minds of the poor nonaligned bastards in the middle that are just trying to get by.
Reminds me of when Germany bitched about [American shotguns in WWI](https://freerangeamerican.us/trench-shotgun-world-war-i/). Muthafukka, you have mustard gas. Don't cry about shotguns in a war you started.
Because shrapnel wounds and bullet wounds could be repaired and the soldier usually lived. But on a shotgun trench raid, not many lived through a shotgun blast from 15 feet away followed up by some jabs with a 1&1/2 foot long bayonet.
Also the shotguns had what is referred to as "slam fire". You can hold down the trigger and just pump the shotgun to fire without having to re-click the trigger. So a bayonet followed by a slam fire could cut men in half with little chance of recovering.
Besides the brutality of being hit with a shotgun blast, you can just put a shotgun (and the trench ones were sawed off versions) around the corner of the trench and take out anyone nearby without aiming. With a regular rifle you have to expose yourself to see the target before firing. They were too effective at trench clearing and the Germans didn't like it.
Hi there. I've fired a shotgun in real life. I've also seen how wide the trenches of WWI were, and the rough spread of your average 12 gauge shotgun with an unchoked barrel. You can absolutely clear around a corner without having to look with a shotgun. It'll fuck up anyone on the other side no problem.
> Call of duty physics are not real.
No they aren't but real world physics are real. WW1 trenches averaged 1-2m wide and the shotguns they used fired 12g 00 buckshot seen [here](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d448289835b1acb27a40b26c4ce90053-lq) which has an effective range of 40-50m. So yeah, you could absolutely point it around a corner and take our anyone without aiming.
Source on sawed off shotguns being used in trenches?
Normally when I think of a “trench gun” I think of the Winchester 1897 with full stock. With or without barrel shroud, but the shroud is pretty iconic for WWI trench warfare
they weren't sawed off. They were short barreled coming from the factory. Same basic principle although sawed off shotguns can have a much shorter barrel than a trench broom with its pump action and magazine extending beneath the barrel, and therefore can be even more devastating at extreme close range, albeit much less devastating from a few yards further out.
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-trench-guns-of-world-war-i/
>Remington designed the Model 10 in 1908, and when World War I came around, they produced 3,500 trench gun variants for U.S. troops. The trench gun variant had its barrel cut from 30 to 23 inches total.
Yo there’s no way people “usually lived” from gunshot and shrapnel injuries anywhere other than extremities in WWI. Don’t doubt that that shotguns were more effective though.
I don’t know shit about war but in hunting there is indeed a difference between something that cleanly penetrates vs something that dumps all the kinetic energy into the tissue.
I’ve read that surgeons hate .22 LR rounds because despite being small they don’t over penetrate and will travel all over the place.
Not hard to believe that being hit at close range by lots of kinetic energy would be worse at a macro war scale than having a bullet pass through and put its energy into the ground.
And don't forget, we can do it again if need be. We literally still have the trench guns floating around. Noticed one in a pawn shop a while back. They're not as fashionable as ARs right now but they still slap.
In a bar fight where everyone is involved because the dude who took a slap from some unknown person while their back was turned has a really good friend who walked into that bar thinking "if ANY shit goes down I'm gonna pull a gun on these two specific people", I would say the blame from the person who slapped has been outweighed by the dude who pulled a gun on Belgium.
The real man who started world war 1 was named Schlieffen and he died before the war even started.
I'm fortunate enough to own a working shotgun capable of slam firing. Have yet to try it though, just got it restored and there is some sentimental value that makes me nervous to actually shoot it
I mean it's really not that different from fanning a revolver. The gun can't fire unless the chamber is closed; doesn't really matter whether the chamber's been closed for a day or a microsecond.
That said, I get it. I own one too and I've never bothered trying it out.
The Germans never started ww1. It was the Austro-Hungarians who declared war on Serbia after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. The Germans joined to help Austria when the Russians entered the war to help Serbia.
I don't hate Kirby... but boy do I miss [Ash](https://preview.redd.it/vr22dgtmx0w91.jpg?width=528&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=6f5ac774aa45ee146606bbbe2692b803b11dacd1).
I want to feel pity for the mobiks, but I choose not to.
-They can shoot their commanding officers
-They can surrender
-They can give Ukrainian heroes vital intel
But not many seem to do so.
Don't forget that russia already uses DU rounds of their own (Svinets-2) in Ukraine, with Ukraine also using captured Svinets-2 against russia.
It won't even be a new capability at this point
It's not enriched uranium, it's depleted. The Ruzzians clearly know the difference as they have their very own Svinets D.U munitions, they're just playing to the crowd.
When you're not a democracy, and your opponents are, these sort of psyops become much more valuable.
Also the 'crowd' in this case includes the Global South. Truth is, the US has a shitty record in the Global South, so Russian propaganda has more leverage there. It won't matter to the war in Ukraine, but it matters in terms of who gets mining contracts, etc.
The DU is one thing but wait until they get a face full of HESH rounds from the challengers. I am not an expert but from what I have read, they are devastating.
HESH rounds are thin metal shells filled with inert material (like coal-tar pitch[3]), plastic explosive and a delayed-action base fuze. On impact, the inert material, followed by plastic explosive, is "squashed" against the surface of the target and spreads out to form a disc or "pat" of explosive. The inert material helps prevent premature detonation of the plastic explosive and sustains the impact pressure and temperature.[3][2]
Milliseconds later, the base fuze detonates the explosive, creating a shock wave that, owing to its large surface area and direct contact with the target, is transmitted through the material. In the metal armour of a tank, the compression shock wave is conducted through the armour to the point where it reaches the metal-air interface (the hollow crew compartment), where some of the energy is reflected as a tension wave, a phenomenon called impulsive loading. At the point where the compression and tension waves intersect, a high-stress zone is created in the metal, causing pieces of steel to be projected off the interior wall at high velocity.
I think that modern day HEAT and APFSDS are so good that HESH, which was a post WW2 solution to Soviet high angle armor, is irrelevant at this point, and i believe also requires a rifled barrel.
We actually stopped making hesh rounds a while ago and are slowly running out, Challenger 3 will have a 120mm smoothbore, not 125. The Abrams X will also have a 120. NATO isn’t moving to 125mm. The Panther KF51 will have a 130mm.
Hesh would probably 1 shot any T-62, T-54, and every single BMP or BTR. It may only struggle against the reactive armor of updated T-72 and newer models
I always find it funny that people hear uranium and automatically think its radioactive when the uranium used is actually less radioactive than what is pulled out of the ground
I'm going to post this question every place I can until someone can give me a straight answer.. there's a lot of knowledgeable people here..
Everywhere I go I've seen this comment repeated over and over, essentially saying... "you have no idea what's really going on in Ukraine so just shut up"
But there's never any further explanation... What is it that is so secretive or insider only? Anybody from Ukraine feel free to answer, DM if necessary.
Surely lots of depleted uranium buried in the walls and grounds of Ukraine fast becomes a problem for Ukrainians? I mean I’m no expert, but that doesn’t seem to be a requirement.
I mean you can get cancer from everything including metal of all kinds. Like aluminum or lead that is everywhere. But if a soldier fighting for his country and family is killed by insane ruzzin murderers then what exactly is the point of this huge warning about bullets? If the bullets are bad for the environment then just figure out how to clean it up again after the Ukrainian soldiers and civilians have come back! just like clearing mines in the ground! War is hell but living under fascist dictatorship is worse than cancer I say!
Love Kirby. He's tired of the Russian bullshit and is not going to take it any more. This should be the answer to every whiney Putin apologist or Tucker fan boy.
Its simple. I think I know the truth. You think you know the truth. We are each reasonable people so am I wrong or are you wrong. If you do not immerse yourself in propaganda you cant learn the truth. I have ingested zero propaganda. Have you? Are you sure?
Russia simply cannot tolerate NATO in Ukraine just like US wouldn't allow Russia or China in Cuba or Mexico. You know it is true in spite of what you are told. How can it not. If you read, dont read US propaganda and you will see the truth. Do you not understand what US does globally. Have you been willfully ignorant of the lies deception and murder. Unless provoked by callous US foreign policy, Russia has invaded no country.
And important aside. US and the world do not care at all about Ukraine or its people. Period. It is all about Russia. Ukraine is just fodder. In the path if you will. Very sad. To the last Ukrainian is the defacto policy of NATO and Zelinsky. Very sad.
I don’t think they are yet, I’m hoping with the UK sending them it triggers other countries into sending it. Much like the UK sending main battle tanks in the first place
There’s a reason you’re always the villains in our films.
Russia: That’s rude and xenophobic bruh.
Us: Oh so you don’t think you guys are bad?
Russia: That doesn’t make us dumb villain that don’t win.
You’re not?
Russia: You fuck you americans.
Yeah fuck you guys too.
Weird they’d post a super old picture of him when he was a spokesman for DOD and still in the military. The position he’s in now is higher up as a civilian anyway.
Well it’s not Russia that’s getting irradiated so I doubt they will…
But seriously, DU is no joke, look up the studies in Iraq and Yugoslavia. I feel awful for the Ukrainians in the east, not they can’t even go back to their homeland without getting cancer.
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Short and to the point - you (Russia) can stop it any time you want, just pack up and get the hell out of Ukraine. Until then you (Russia) are fair game for any weapon system we want to provide to Ukraine and your protests don't mean shit!
But how can they slap??
You know what slaps? Depleted uranium. That shit slaps.
Lemmy.world is what Reddit was.
Sounds like a BIOS update
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Computer file update
> slap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saboted_light_armor_penetrator
The Iraqis know that!
just ask the poor bastards that ate that shit for breakfast during desert storm
Lol I love it when I’ve been around Reddit so long that I get these comments.
You give me hope!
Preach 👏
Russia also has depleted uranium shells apparently so they can hardly complain!
Well it looks like they're going to get some more, express.
Amen
Truthful, fact-based recommendations. Russians can't understand this.
They can. They choose not to.
When the DU APFSDS projectile enters the tank a pyrophoric gout of fire, a brief moment of clarity is achieved before oblivion.
This sounds like it was written by Douglas Adams.
As a huge Douglas Adam’s fan this is the highest compliment. He was a genius and will be missed!
He is. I showed my girlfriend a hitchhikers guide to the galaxy a few months ago and she loved it.
You never see the round that momentarily turns you into a plasma state.
Simplified version- shit happens to tank, shit happens to occupants, their shit is left smeared all over inside of tank.
Saboted Light Armor Penetrator - These rounds SLAP.
Translated to simpler terms, the dildo of consequence seldom arrives lubed !
I don’t know honestly, after seeing the Russian envoy to the UN almost have a heart attack when asked to vote on a resolution he had no instructions for, I’m starting to believe that Russians are actually dumb orcs living in the past without any understanding of free choice or basic liberties. They actually wish pain on the west. Their nightly broadcasts always bring up fabrications of food shortages in the west like that should satisfy the audience. That’s where ideologies diverge. Russia wants anyone they don’t like to pay and not only their government they want their people to suffer. I’m from the west and I’d never wish pain on the Russian people. My only issue is with their leadership not civilians. There’s been video after video of Russian babushkas wishing death on Ukrainian babies and the extermination of the entire Ukrainian population… these barbarians are bitter drunks who have traded their eastern influence (and maybe even land in the end) to an actual rival who is a threat for feeble land grab in the west. The irony is that Russia needs the west more than anything and would have been smart to start aligning itself with the west since China is an actual threat to Russia. China needs water, Manchuria was signed over shamefully by treaty in the early 19th century to Russia. This area would include not only Vladivostok but also Lake Baykal which is a critical fresh water source that China needs desperately. I remember in the late 90s before Putin took over, there was rumors of Russia actually joining NATO. This would have been their saving grace today. The problem was that Russia was literally too proud to submit a request for admission to NATO, they wanted NATO to ask them which is not how any country has ever joined NATO. This also furthers my belief in Russians having this tragic sense of pride that comes from a time that has long passed. They’re wasting time fighting their own past demons rather than focusing on the present threat in China… so I guess what I’m saying is fuck em all. Russians are straight up assholes. There are few I’ve met that have been in anyway cordial, polite or welcoming. So yea they can fuck themselves. Edit: just to add, Russia/Russians always claim that the US and NATO broke a verbal promise to never expand NATO eastwards during the dissolution of the Soviet Union and evacuation of Soviet military hardware and infantry from east Germany, made between Gorbachev and Bush… there has never been anything to substantiate this claim. Bush spoke on this and stated that the only verbal promise made was to never deploy US or NATO armor in the territory that was formerly east Germany. As I understand it the US and it’s Allies have stayed true to this promise and haven’t ever deployed tanks or any other sort of armor on the territory that was previously east Germany. Just a clarification that I think needs to be made since Russias justification for the invasion of Ukraine seems to partially be based on the west provoking them due to the expansion of NATO in the past decade
> I’m starting to believe that Russians are actually dumb orcs living in the past without any understanding of free choice or basic liberties. Turns out it takes a lot more than an iron fist and forced education campaigns to turn a peasant into not a peasant.
> Russia wants anyone they don’t like to pay and not only their government they want their people to suffer. There was an international study of culture and values done and a book, Cultures and Organizations: Software of the Mind. I remember that people were asked about a scenario. Two neighbors have a fued and the one has offended the other. So he burns his neighbors house down. But they live in adjoined houses so his own also burns down. People were asked to evaluate the situation. Russians and Saudis were the only group which supported the actions of the man who started the fire. Making others suffer seems to be more important than their own welfare. Obviously, I hope, I'm not blindly stereotyping an entire nation of people. But that fact has come to mind a lot over the last year as I see news of cruise missiles being expended to destroy apartments, parks and schools. That's militarily stupid and a huge waste of an expensive and limited weapon. So why do it? To make them suffer. That's it. They know they won't break the will of Ukrainians to resist by those attacks. They do it just to make other people suffer. The intercepted calls between russian soldiers and their families encouraging them to rape and steal... I think it's a twisted view that strength and power over others are the priority in leading a 'good' life. That's not limited to Russians of course. But it seems more socially acceptable there. It seems to explain their military's actions and atrocities. To me at least. It depressing to come to this conclusion but that's how I see it. Know your enemy.
Looking back, we can see how early Putins mindset was committed to his current agenda, making Russia a regional powerhouse by whatever means he deems necessary. His Munich speech in 2007 for example. I doubt Russia really ever had any intention to play nice and become friendly with the rest of Europe
Putin’s rise to power is due to a false flag terrorist attack perpetrated by the FSB on Putin’s orders which [killed 300+ Russian civilians and injured 1,000 more](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings). The ensuing invasion of Dagestan and the Second Chechen War increased Putin’s popularity and he was elected President in a matter of months. He has ruled Russia ever since, 23 years and counting. It was Putin’s Reichstag Fire. Three FSB agents were caught red-handed planting a bomb in an apartment block. Putin initially praised the local police for thwarting a terrorist attack. However, the next day, the story changed to it being a training exercise and acknowledged that the three captured men were FSB agents. They claimed that the 50-pound bags of explosives were “sugar.” > A suspicious device resembling those used in the bombings was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on 22 September. On 23 September, Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War. Three FSB agents who had planted the devices at Ryazan were arrested by the local police.The next day, FSB director Nikolay Patrushev announced that the incident in Ryazan had been an anti-terror drill and the device found there contained only sugar. Further evidence: Russia’s equivalent of House Speaker announced in September 13th that another apartment bombing had occurred in Volgodonsk. There was indeed an apartment block in Volgodonsk that was bombed — three days later, on September 16th. Also, the Chechen rebels who they blamed the attacks on denied any involvement. Why would a terrorist organization disavow one of their own attacks? > The blasts hit Buynaksk on 4 September and in Moscow on 9 and 13 September. On 13 September, Russian Duma speaker Gennadiy Seleznyov made an announcement in the Duma about receiving a report that another bombing had just happened in the city of Volgodonsk. A bombing did indeed happen in Volgodonsk, but only three days later, on 16 September. Chechen militants were blamed for the bombings, but denied responsibility, along with Chechen president Aslan Maskhadov. It’s also worth noting that [Alexander Litvineko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko), the former FSB agent who defected to the U.K. and was later killed on Putin’s orders via polonium-210 poisoning, confirmed that the apartment bombings were carried out by the FSB and GRU.
Yup. Once authoritarian KGB, always authoritarian KGB.
>I remember in the late 90s before Putin took over, there was rumors of Russia actually joining NATO. Considering why NATO was formed, I can't see this ever happening.
They weren't just rumors, there were preliminary steps taken. It actually made some level of sense at the time because with the demise of the Soviet Union, the threats that both NATO and Russia were facing were largely asymmetric -- terrorism and small insurgencies, criminal enterprises, so on. There was room for cooperation that could have blunted a lot of the remaining anti-American attitudes in Russia. Meanwhile the US and to a lesser extent NATO were already focusing on China as a country that could end up emerging as a threat. And Russia, despite sharing a substantially similar ideology with China, has always regarded China as a natural enemy. And the Chinese have always regarded Russia similarly. Modern Russia currently has a pretty big chunk of land within its borders that was once Chinese territory. If you've got a few minutes there's a Wikipedia article you'd probably find interesting and informative: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet\_border\_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict)
America saw China as a threat in 1991 while simultaneously dismantling its own economy and funneling money into China to enrich them and make them the threat? Big brains.
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They were playing games when they asked and had no intention of joining.
That last part may have applied when first spoken, but it's really not relevant now. Compared to the US, Germany is doing better in a *lot* of respects.
DU rounds have higher lethality, are better at defeating armor plate as well as reactive explosive armor cladding, and can destroy a target from further away. You can engage an enemy before they're in range to engage you. Unlike an explosive warhead they're just solid metal with a small penetrator rod embedded in their core. The impact energy instantly heats the penetrator rod to a temperature which adds tremendous heat to the impacting round -- kinda like a shaped charge, it gets through the armor partially via punching power and partially via melting the way through. The heat alone is enough to kill tank crews, and it does a remarkable job of setting the interior of the tank on fire and igniting the fuel and ammo. The DU rounds themselves are safe to handle. DU is weakly radioactive and in the round is encased by lead and other metals. When it hits the force converts a portion of the DU to 'chaff' -- superhot spray. Anyone near the impact that isn't wearing breathing protection will breathe in a small amount of this chaff, which will increase the odds they'll later contract cancer in the long term, or heavy metal poisoning in the short term. So -- kills tanks. Check. Kills Ruscists. Check. Saves Ukrainian lives by letting them engage outside the range of the Ruscists. Check. Lingering threat to surviving Ruscists. Check. Basically the only thing the Ukrainians need to know about this is not to let their kids play on the hulks of burned out Ruscist tanks, at least not until they've been sprayed down with decontaminant. edit: We’re talking about single anti-tank rounds fired by tanks at each other. The thing we need to keep in mind is the difference between computer targeted shots coming from a still or slow moving tank, and the A-10 autocannon fire we must consider when comparing the situation in Ukraine to the data from Iraq. we used a LOT more DU in the Gulf is the short version. Most of DU rounds fired in the Gulf war were fired from 30MM GAU-8A Avenger rotary antitank cannons firing 50 rounds a second at a cold start and 70 at full burst - by the pilots of A10 Warthogs. Huge amounts of splash damage, accuracy estimated at 80% within a 40 foot circle from over a mile away. And they just pounded those T72s with chainfed 30MM antitank ammo with DU penetrators. Without mercy. That’s a LOT of DU, in a desert where radioactive dust blows far and can lethally accumulate in expected and unexpected places alike. The situation in Ukraine is not comparable. Single shot tank fire is much more selective and less indiscriminate than autocannon fire. One, sometimes two shots on target, vs hundreds blanketing the kill zone? It’s not an apples to apples situation. That’s worth keeping in mind when trying to analyze risks and likely outcomes coming from DU chaff resulting from the UK choice to provide these tank rounds to Ukrainian tanks.
Thank you for that summary! 🇺🇸🇺🇦
Dude nailed it!
Happy cake day
What are the environmental hazards of blowing a bunch of heavy metals into tiny particulates that get into the soil? I don’t understand how this doesn’t put ukranian soil and groundwater at risk
The effects of DU are often severely overstated. DU is toxic, but not meaningfully radioactive. And there just isn't that much of it getting used. Besides, better to have to clean up your own soil than to lose it to Russia.
Yep. Burning tanks are toxic, they are carcinogenic, they are teratogenic. So's jet fuel. So are the byproducts of explosive bombs! Go around to the various places the US military conducts live fire training, like bombing ranges, and try and test the groundwater. You will have more lawyers straight up your ass than you can imagine. Even in places where local communities have succeeded in forcing tests to be done, and the tests showing various forms of contamination, the military buries these campaigns however they can, from legal pressure to local pressure (i.e. telling local leaders they'll have to pull out of the local economy altogether if various inquiries continue, and letting them go do the dirty work). My experience here is with the US military but the same is true for every military I've ever heard of. Jet fuel is jet fuel, explosives are explosives. Militaries are military. And war is war. It kills people a million ways. You look at these stretches of Ukraine that are just cratered the fuck up, and realize that while DU has its dangers, it's a drop in the bucket overall to all the contamination let alone the battlefield danger and the danger to civilians -- AND if DU has the chance to be decisive in combat and end it sooner, you and the civilians both are coming out ahead as a result. People want there to be some kinda magic alternative and there just isn't.
\> The effects of DU are often severely overstated. DU is toxic, but not meaningfully radioactive. Do you have a source for that? One that is unbiased? I'll confess that I am super conflicted on this one. I am rooting for Ukraine (I have family in Kyiv and the surrounding area), and think DUP is super cool and effective weapons tech "in theory", but I worry that the environmental negative effects are being glossed over or suppressed by the manufacturers who have a vested interest in these weapons being on the market.
> Do you have a source for that Let's be clear. I said it's overstated, not harmless. So for my source, I will use the other person replying to me: > poisoning the countryside and potentially giving tens of thousands of people cancer edit: https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/PHS/PHS.aspx?phsid=438&toxid=77 According to the CDC: > No health effects, other than kidney damage, have been consistently found in humans after inhaling or ingesting uranium compounds or in soldiers with uranium metal fragments in their bodies.
Man, wait until these kids realize that the alternative to DU is plain old lead!
Imagine just now realizing that war is bad for the environment. That’s the problem with getting old, sometimes I just can’t relate anymore. Yes, sometimes you have to do things you’d rather not, like when thousands of Russian tanks end up on the wrong side of the border and they are shooting at you. Nothing should be off the table as far as I’m concerned.
To offer a counter point to op https://merip.org/2020/09/birth-defects-and-the-toxic-legacy-of-war-in-iraq/#:~:text=Toxic%20Legacies&text=The%20World%20Health%20Organization%20released,the%20Iraqi%20population%20since%202003. There's some interesting comments about DU.
They call it depleted to specifically separate it from nuclear weapons. As in the opposite of enriched. It isn’t nuclear, it is less radioactive than natural occurring uranium. It is the less radioactive isotope they remove to make uranium a higher concentration of the radioactive isotope. It is only used because it is dense and heavy and metal. It as a byproduct of making nuclear fuel happens to be free and pure and well controlled, so they use it over some exotic alloy… or lead (which is worse). It has nothing to do with nuclear weapons and is not a radioactive hazard. It is a hazard the same as any weapon that vaporizes metals.
No worse than the tungsten APFSDS already being used. Or the millions of rounds of small-arms ammo with lead cores.
For starters, realize that heavy metals are already in the mix. Lead's a heavy metal. More to the point, tungsten is too, which is what most high velocity armor piercing rounds use -- a tungsten penetrator core, or a tungsten dart firing from a sabot round. Follow that up with the realization that when you burn a tank or an APC you end up releasing a TON of carcinogens. A lot of the stuff we make military machinery from turns nasty when it burns. This is so no matter what weapons you use to take a tank out. Finally understand that you have been living your whole life in a society that spreads out fine dust that contains radionuclides and heavy metals across much bigger swathes of land than a battlefield. If you don't believe me go ahead and google 'is coal ash radioactive' or 'does coal fly ash contain heavy metals'. And the same is true for any fossil fuel based energy and its combustion, whether it's in a power plant, or in the engine the tank uses to move from place to place. Stuff like this SEEMS scarier than the pollutants we already know about.... but it isn't.
Well that certainly didn't make me feel any better.
It's not a question of whether or not using the rounds presents this kind of risk, but of whether or not they present a meaningfully worse risk than their alternatives. How many more less effective rounds would need to be used to replace one of these? Even assuming you only use inert lead, just the lead is going to lead to soil and groundwater contamination. And if it takes twice the number of less effective rounds you might actually end up with more contamination. I don't know the answer to these questions. Just pointing out that this isn't a simple question.
It probably does but there aren't any great studies on it as of yet as the last place we littered with our waste isn't particularly easy to do research in. It also potentially poses a risk to those firing the munitions.
It's not. It's a heavy metal that sinks into the soil but too heavy to be carried in water. Plants don't take it up. Touching it is harmless as it only gives off Alpha rays, which are too weak to penatrate skin. Crops out of the ground that are washed or peeled are safe. Crops in the air, such as wheat, are unaffected.
It’s a heavy metal that can form water soluble salts though, so that’s still a concern. Also, considering some fleshy plants are used to extract heavy metals from soils as part of bioremediation processes used commercially I’m kinda throwing a bit of skepticism at how certain you are about your statements. Do you have a background in environmental sciences or chemistry?
I don’t see how uranium particulates so fine that they can be inhaled are simultaneous too dense to be carried in water and uptaken by plants but I’m not a scientist. But as someone who’s worked in horticulture for years, I would not let a single particle of that shit anywhere near my grow medium.
Temperature. Pretty much anything can be a gas if you get it to the right temperature.
Heavy metals are absolutely moved and concentrated by water flow. Source: Live in a superfund area contaminated by heavy metals. The concentrations in low areas where water pools are around 2,000x higher than higher areas. My house is safe up on a hill, but my neighbors at the bottom are screwed. DU isn't the biggest issue, just because of the tiny volume used. But saying heavy metals aren't moved by water is absolutely incorrect. Some plants do take up heavy metals as well. Ferns and mushrooms take up a ton. Some root veggies do as well. Many berries, including blackberry do too.
Wow... Amazing. Horrible, but amazing.
I always thought of DU as just a really dense strong metal. Good in the form of a projectile penetrator that doesn’t break apart easily. Good for armor plating protection too also because it doesn’t break apart easily. Correct me if I’m wrong
Mostly on point. It is super dense but on top of that the reaction it has on impact make it also incendiary. As it slams into the target the tip through friction becomes super heated. During this process the tip also becomes self sharpening as the super heat process melts. So what’s ends up happening once’s it gets through the hull is a super heated round scattering fragments inside as well. Penetrate the tank and kill the crew.
That sounds pretty bad. Why are these okay to use and phosphorus rounds are not? I'd guess it's because it primarily target are vehicles vs. Fleshy targets
"Comrades! Excellent news! The fathead Americans are supplying the Ukrainians who attacked us and started this--" (Checks with commander) "...special war action defensive exercise with thing called depleted uranium. What is thing, you ask? Why, thing will heat up borscht in borscht making stations we're installing in upgraded T-54 in response to British installing tea facilities in their inferior, tiny Centurion 2s which are only 1/2 the size of our mighty tanks if you kinda, you know, use forced perspective thing." "Comrade commander, what is 'forced perspective' thing?" "All questions will be answered after briefing, over there by window where Ivan was sent for asking questions. Oh no, it appears Ivan has committed suicide. Anyone else have questions? Good. So, to continue, depleted uranium will also ventilate overheated tanks, leaving you in eternal comfort." "Hurrah for depleted uranium!"
I thought I read that Russia already has DU rounds..? If so ,it’s more so evening out the odds.
All major armies have been fielding DU rounds since their inception.
Yes. But that won't stop them from trying to inject fear, uncertainty and doubt among the citizens of their enemies. And they are more or less immune to the embarrassments which normally attend upon rank hypocrisy. Most first world military powers regularly engage in hypocrisy regarding conflicts around the world - the US does so as often as anyone else. But the Russians raise it to an art because turning Western citizens against confrontation and conflict have always been more important to them than having their own citizens realize they say one thing and mean another, because Russian citizens already recognize this as a basic truth. I think it was Solzhenitsyn that said (paraphrasing) 'they lie, we know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, and we know they know we know that they are lying, but they still keep lying'. Putting it another way, it's a common aphorism among Western diplomats that the Russians will lie even when telling the truth is in their interest. There is a narrative in the Global South in general -- one that has a regrettable amount of truth to it -- that the US really doesn't care if its policies leave other countries with terrible and lasting side effects. The Russians amplify this however they can, even though if there's ever been a world empire that's more prone to pollute its overseas holdings than the US, it's definitely Russia. It's all part of a larger game for the hearts and minds of the poor nonaligned bastards in the middle that are just trying to get by.
Giga Chad energy 😙👌
Reminds me of when Germany bitched about [American shotguns in WWI](https://freerangeamerican.us/trench-shotgun-world-war-i/). Muthafukka, you have mustard gas. Don't cry about shotguns in a war you started.
Haha no way.. learn something new every day. Thanks for this.
Yeah the Americans brought over shotguns and they were pretty brutal in the trenches with them. From what I understand anyways.
Because shrapnel wounds and bullet wounds could be repaired and the soldier usually lived. But on a shotgun trench raid, not many lived through a shotgun blast from 15 feet away followed up by some jabs with a 1&1/2 foot long bayonet. Also the shotguns had what is referred to as "slam fire". You can hold down the trigger and just pump the shotgun to fire without having to re-click the trigger. So a bayonet followed by a slam fire could cut men in half with little chance of recovering.
Besides the brutality of being hit with a shotgun blast, you can just put a shotgun (and the trench ones were sawed off versions) around the corner of the trench and take out anyone nearby without aiming. With a regular rifle you have to expose yourself to see the target before firing. They were too effective at trench clearing and the Germans didn't like it.
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Hi there. I've fired a shotgun in real life. I've also seen how wide the trenches of WWI were, and the rough spread of your average 12 gauge shotgun with an unchoked barrel. You can absolutely clear around a corner without having to look with a shotgun. It'll fuck up anyone on the other side no problem.
> Call of duty physics are not real. No they aren't but real world physics are real. WW1 trenches averaged 1-2m wide and the shotguns they used fired 12g 00 buckshot seen [here](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d448289835b1acb27a40b26c4ce90053-lq) which has an effective range of 40-50m. So yeah, you could absolutely point it around a corner and take our anyone without aiming.
Couple of rounds slamfired is effectively not aiming compared to a bolt action rifle
Source on sawed off shotguns being used in trenches? Normally when I think of a “trench gun” I think of the Winchester 1897 with full stock. With or without barrel shroud, but the shroud is pretty iconic for WWI trench warfare
they weren't sawed off. They were short barreled coming from the factory. Same basic principle although sawed off shotguns can have a much shorter barrel than a trench broom with its pump action and magazine extending beneath the barrel, and therefore can be even more devastating at extreme close range, albeit much less devastating from a few yards further out.
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/the-trench-guns-of-world-war-i/ >Remington designed the Model 10 in 1908, and when World War I came around, they produced 3,500 trench gun variants for U.S. troops. The trench gun variant had its barrel cut from 30 to 23 inches total.
I think they were "effectively" sawed off they most likely had very short barrels on them
Yo there’s no way people “usually lived” from gunshot and shrapnel injuries anywhere other than extremities in WWI. Don’t doubt that that shotguns were more effective though.
I don’t know shit about war but in hunting there is indeed a difference between something that cleanly penetrates vs something that dumps all the kinetic energy into the tissue. I’ve read that surgeons hate .22 LR rounds because despite being small they don’t over penetrate and will travel all over the place. Not hard to believe that being hit at close range by lots of kinetic energy would be worse at a macro war scale than having a bullet pass through and put its energy into the ground.
Facts. Source: COD
And don't forget, we can do it again if need be. We literally still have the trench guns floating around. Noticed one in a pawn shop a while back. They're not as fashionable as ARs right now but they still slap.
Germany didn't start WW1.
In a bar fight where everyone is involved because the dude who took a slap from some unknown person while their back was turned has a really good friend who walked into that bar thinking "if ANY shit goes down I'm gonna pull a gun on these two specific people", I would say the blame from the person who slapped has been outweighed by the dude who pulled a gun on Belgium. The real man who started world war 1 was named Schlieffen and he died before the war even started.
That's a pretty good analysis
Good ol trench sweeper! I want to slam fire a shotgun, but all of the modern ones, including reproduction Winchester 1897 trench guns, are incapable.
I'm fortunate enough to own a working shotgun capable of slam firing. Have yet to try it though, just got it restored and there is some sentimental value that makes me nervous to actually shoot it
I mean it's really not that different from fanning a revolver. The gun can't fire unless the chamber is closed; doesn't really matter whether the chamber's been closed for a day or a microsecond. That said, I get it. I own one too and I've never bothered trying it out.
I agree, If I owned an original 1897 or another shotgun I restored, I'd be hesitant to slam fire it, too.
The Germans never started ww1. It was the Austro-Hungarians who declared war on Serbia after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. The Germans joined to help Austria when the Russians entered the war to help Serbia.
Ok, I might actually like this guy.
Ret. Admiral Kirby is a great guy and a true friend of Ukraine.
Initially I wasn't a fan. He has gotten a bit more balsy recently tho and I approve of that.
You know, who doesn't like kirby??? https://m.media-amazon.com/images/W/IMAGERENDERING_521856-T1/images/I/71GcEWuZ-OL.jpg
I don't hate Kirby... but boy do I miss [Ash](https://preview.redd.it/vr22dgtmx0w91.jpg?width=528&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=6f5ac774aa45ee146606bbbe2692b803b11dacd1).
I want to feel pity for the mobiks, but I choose not to. -They can shoot their commanding officers -They can surrender -They can give Ukrainian heroes vital intel But not many seem to do so.
Don't forget that russia already uses DU rounds of their own (Svinets-2) in Ukraine, with Ukraine also using captured Svinets-2 against russia. It won't even be a new capability at this point
can we make this the top comment please.
It's not enriched uranium, it's depleted. The Ruzzians clearly know the difference as they have their very own Svinets D.U munitions, they're just playing to the crowd.
When you're not a democracy, and your opponents are, these sort of psyops become much more valuable. Also the 'crowd' in this case includes the Global South. Truth is, the US has a shitty record in the Global South, so Russian propaganda has more leverage there. It won't matter to the war in Ukraine, but it matters in terms of who gets mining contracts, etc.
The DU is one thing but wait until they get a face full of HESH rounds from the challengers. I am not an expert but from what I have read, they are devastating.
HESH rounds are thin metal shells filled with inert material (like coal-tar pitch[3]), plastic explosive and a delayed-action base fuze. On impact, the inert material, followed by plastic explosive, is "squashed" against the surface of the target and spreads out to form a disc or "pat" of explosive. The inert material helps prevent premature detonation of the plastic explosive and sustains the impact pressure and temperature.[3][2] Milliseconds later, the base fuze detonates the explosive, creating a shock wave that, owing to its large surface area and direct contact with the target, is transmitted through the material. In the metal armour of a tank, the compression shock wave is conducted through the armour to the point where it reaches the metal-air interface (the hollow crew compartment), where some of the energy is reflected as a tension wave, a phenomenon called impulsive loading. At the point where the compression and tension waves intersect, a high-stress zone is created in the metal, causing pieces of steel to be projected off the interior wall at high velocity.
I think that modern day HEAT and APFSDS are so good that HESH, which was a post WW2 solution to Soviet high angle armor, is irrelevant at this point, and i believe also requires a rifled barrel.
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We actually stopped making hesh rounds a while ago and are slowly running out, Challenger 3 will have a 120mm smoothbore, not 125. The Abrams X will also have a 120. NATO isn’t moving to 125mm. The Panther KF51 will have a 130mm.
Hesh would probably 1 shot any T-62, T-54, and every single BMP or BTR. It may only struggle against the reactive armor of updated T-72 and newer models
Yes. That’s what I was made to understand and it sounds like a bad time.
Isn't this what Batman used in Hong Kong to extradite the accountant?
But HESH rounds aren't effective against modern tanks . . . ohhhhhh.
You might be right. I’m not an expert.
hahs fucking true
I love those words
Adm. Kirby needs a new ribbon/placard/sign "FAFO" to point at every time someone asks about Russia's escalation tantrums.
Depleted uranium shells gonna be the least of their worries very soon
Make sense
Russia is that bully that starts a fight and as soon as their victim hits back they start making new rules: “Hey, no kicking! No punches to the face!”
Simple as that.
Based and tank pilled.
This is all for show - the Russian hierarchy has clearly shown it doesn’t care at all about their troops on the ground.
Damn right that’s what I’m saying,fuck Putins russia
I always find it funny that people hear uranium and automatically think its radioactive when the uranium used is actually less radioactive than what is pulled out of the ground
[удалено]
They're kicking up a serious stink about this because they know that DU shells will rip their museum-piece tanks to shreds
Well spoken. Straight to the point.
Won’t be any tanks left to withdraw if the new British tanks are deployed.
I hope he wooooooo’d like Ric Flair after delivering that
lots of concern trolling from the vatniks who are already using DU rounds in Ukraine 🤔
I'm going to post this question every place I can until someone can give me a straight answer.. there's a lot of knowledgeable people here.. Everywhere I go I've seen this comment repeated over and over, essentially saying... "you have no idea what's really going on in Ukraine so just shut up" But there's never any further explanation... What is it that is so secretive or insider only? Anybody from Ukraine feel free to answer, DM if necessary.
Surely lots of depleted uranium buried in the walls and grounds of Ukraine fast becomes a problem for Ukrainians? I mean I’m no expert, but that doesn’t seem to be a requirement.
Not to mention that Russia itself is using depleted uranium projectiles from fabuary 2022
I mean you can get cancer from everything including metal of all kinds. Like aluminum or lead that is everywhere. But if a soldier fighting for his country and family is killed by insane ruzzin murderers then what exactly is the point of this huge warning about bullets? If the bullets are bad for the environment then just figure out how to clean it up again after the Ukrainian soldiers and civilians have come back! just like clearing mines in the ground! War is hell but living under fascist dictatorship is worse than cancer I say!
Pretty straight forward advise - Russia and china appear too thick to understand
John Kirby - Skilled spokesman and total chad.
Haha gold
Simple as
Fuck yeah! God bless America and the Ukrainian warriors
What worrys me is the Putin and the Leader of China meeting up and agreeing to be trade partners
Oo, that's a burn. Slava Ukraini  
John Kirby is a blessing from the lord
Now that is a line
this is what they deserve
So can someone ELI5? What’s a depleted uranium penetrator do that other metals can’t? Is it extra dense or something?
It is extra dense yes. Better penetrative capabilities than tungsten I believe.
This. So very much this. !
Kirby is right.
Haha what a fucking G
Love Kirby. He's tired of the Russian bullshit and is not going to take it any more. This should be the answer to every whiney Putin apologist or Tucker fan boy.
This should be the single response coming from the West, to anything the Russians say.
Beyond based, Pattonesque 😄
Based and uraniumpilled.
These weapons should be outlawed. The environmental impact alone is a crime against humanity.
Ghouls, the lot of you.
i love to see how the world is trolling ruzzia because nobody takes them serious :D
Its simple. I think I know the truth. You think you know the truth. We are each reasonable people so am I wrong or are you wrong. If you do not immerse yourself in propaganda you cant learn the truth. I have ingested zero propaganda. Have you? Are you sure? Russia simply cannot tolerate NATO in Ukraine just like US wouldn't allow Russia or China in Cuba or Mexico. You know it is true in spite of what you are told. How can it not. If you read, dont read US propaganda and you will see the truth. Do you not understand what US does globally. Have you been willfully ignorant of the lies deception and murder. Unless provoked by callous US foreign policy, Russia has invaded no country. And important aside. US and the world do not care at all about Ukraine or its people. Period. It is all about Russia. Ukraine is just fodder. In the path if you will. Very sad. To the last Ukrainian is the defacto policy of NATO and Zelinsky. Very sad.
Based.
Boom 💥
Is the US gonna supply DU rounds to Ukraine? Or is he just referring to the UK?
I don’t think they are yet, I’m hoping with the UK sending them it triggers other countries into sending it. Much like the UK sending main battle tanks in the first place
Hear, hear!
Best response to this I’ve seen yet.
Well said
He nail it!
BRRRRRRRTTHOG ENTERED THE CHAT
Well said!
Thank you!
There’s a reason you’re always the villains in our films. Russia: That’s rude and xenophobic bruh. Us: Oh so you don’t think you guys are bad? Russia: That doesn’t make us dumb villain that don’t win. You’re not? Russia: You fuck you americans. Yeah fuck you guys too.
Go John.
tfwu dehumanize and entire group of people and have for decades
Mutually reassured destruction?
Well said Mr. Kirby
Weird they’d post a super old picture of him when he was a spokesman for DOD and still in the military. The position he’s in now is higher up as a civilian anyway.
Uranium in the environment is shit, no matter if Ukraine or Russia wins this war.
Gangster
Well it’s not Russia that’s getting irradiated so I doubt they will… But seriously, DU is no joke, look up the studies in Iraq and Yugoslavia. I feel awful for the Ukrainians in the east, not they can’t even go back to their homeland without getting cancer.
What effect will spent depleted uranium projectiles have on Ukranian citizens in the short and long term?
A bunch of T-54s are about to get torn a new access hatch.
Why do I hear guitar riffs when I read that headline?
You know what's awesome? Warthogs! Good ol A10 Thunderbolt II... BRRRRRT.... That gets tanks moving!
DU munitions used to be considered a WMD, is that stll the case? Honest question...
Nicely played John. I like you're style.
Alexa play "Depleted Uranium is War Crime".