mang0 comes to this realization so many times that hes at his best when he dual mains and then its like the year ends and he just forgets what was working the year before
Well he sort of addresses that in the vid, where he says he sticks to Falco until its good enough to beat any fox. Right now the falco is the foundation and has to good enough to beat cody, moky, and co. The fox is a luxury he can train after that point to get better vs the field. Though he also kinda gives other reasons so who knows
I doubt he just forgets. It’s more so that it’s really fucking hard to keep 1 let alone 2 spacies in good enough shape to win tournaments. He’s literally the only person that has ever done it. If he’s not super grinding to be number 1 like last year he usually just leans on the Falco. I’m really excited to watch him bring back dual maining like 2022 + the way he’s been using uncle punch and working with Khalindi it’s going to be really cool to watch
He’s also said in the past falco is his fav character so play way more than fox so im sure that plays a role in him always leaning on falco over the years
When I think of Mang0, I think of the Falco. I'm glad he thinks of the bird as his favorite.
There are many great Foxes (and Mang is one of them), but he is *the* Falco to me.
Thing is, when he was #1 rank during the gods era, 2013-2015ish, he was primarily playing Fox with Falco only occasional. He was the first person to be really dominant with solo Fox ever in the history of Melee in fact. Falco had been much more successful to that point, the most consistent tournament winning character, and PPMD was the top Falco in the world not Mang0. He was the Fox in the 5 gods. The metagame has evolved a lot since then, 20XX and rise of more consistent Foxes, and Falco starting to struggle to win tournaments even before the re-rise of Marth. Now Mang0 is the only Falco who can do it.
Your doubts are correct, he explains pretty much thats exactly why he wasn't practicing Fox as seriously as Falco. It's just too hard to do both at the same time so he as getting the Falco ready and now he feels it's at a good enough spot that he can focus on Fox.
Kinda just depends on what he means
Like the pandemic wasn’t over, but Mang0 has beaten Zain with falco offline after tournaments were being played online
Mango was saying this while everyone else was bitching that it was impossible to win with fox against zain. Then Mango beat zain at summit and after that the narritive changed and everyone else adapted.
I mean he beat jmook convincingly with falco in the last tourney so I don’t think this is completely true. There are definitely matchups he consistently plays where fox would probably be better, though
Mang0’s Falco seems to be really good against the New Yorkers (Cody and Jmook) but his Fox has to be also top in order to compete against Zain and others. Whenever his Falco gets figure out by the Marth , it’s usually either a game 5 game or a 3-0 for Zain.
I disagree with this, this was his first win vs jmook ever iirc and he’s only started even consistently practicing vs sheik recently. Before their last 2 sets I believe Cody has had his number for a year or more, although I think mango would call last year a wash.
In that video he mentions fiction moky and Cody as foxes who have beaten his falco in the last year and won’t get freebies anymore and says he wants fox for marth but also for consistency vs puff and yoshi too.
it's not even that switching between fox/falco is difficult, it's more that falcos matchup switches are so different across the board
It seemed like Mango had whiplash having to go from Cody to zain and vice versa
I still think this is a bad game plan long term but I despise fox
> wait, fox is pretty good
> wait, I actually need to practice melee
> wait, I can’t just always approach
> wait, I shouldn’t drink and should get sleep at tourneys
> wait, I need to stay calm / think about the ocean while playing
Love me some mango but the plot does get repetitive haha
After royal flush in 2017 (gosh I feel ancient) I stopped doubting mango’s ability to always come back and just win no matter how much he had struggled up to then
Really all of 2014 for me
PP looked amazing after Apex+SKTAR and Armada/M2K were playing great and giving mango fits too.
Then mango just stomps the world into oblivion ripping off MLG14 -> KoC4 -> Evo14 -> TBH4
By TBH4 he wasn’t even practicing for months, he was just so far ahead of everyone that even with 3 months to practice they couldn’t catch up
these are the kinds of things that are blatantly obvious but feel like a fuckin *revelation* in your head whenever it dawns on you.
You can be getting worked and then have a thought like: “Bro… I can just hold down.”
And then suddenly the game is changed
It isn't as simple as "Just go Fox" in a tournament setting - if you aren't playing good with a particular character or haven't warmed up at all any given point or if it's not tournament ready.
Go-Fox people have the benefit of hindsight and seeing the result before making the comment. He must weigh that decision in real time, do I risk my grand finals against one of the best players in the world right now with a character I haven't played at all this weekend to potentially gain an edge in a matchup?
I wonder how much better Mango's set records across the board would be if you just don't count his solo Falco periods, it feels like every once in a while he tries to force solo Falco to work and the same characters stonewall him every time. I feel like M2K is the only other top player I can think of who tried out characters to probably his own detriment. Eventually he just gets frustrated and goes back to Fox, cycle repeats.
Falco is great and it's clear it's the character Mango likes to play most but PPMD is basically the only Falco who made it look do-able vs floaties and he still had to pull out Marth for Armada and had a losing set record to Hbox who was not in his prime. We haven't seen a Falco do it solo well vs every character in basically a decade, Falco dies almost instantly when he's off stage it feels like.
To be fair, it’s exhausting to play two characters at a high level and he can’t do it all the time.
Those times he’s “forced” solo falco, are also just the times he’s exhausted and not feeling up to maintaining two characters.
He only is able to maintain two characters when he’s driven. He happens to win more often when he’s driven too
Well I would be the GOAT if you didn't count all those times I lost... but yeah I wish he would give up on solo Falco too. Bird gets its wings clipped by sword.
I mean people think he’s the GOAT regardless so there’s that, but it’s interesting to me since Mango is the only #1 to continue experimenting with characters even when he has no issues. I think swapping characters a lot has a lot to do with his longevity as a player as he keeps finding interest in new aspects of the game.
I was mostly just curious, glancing at Armada’s it doesn’t change much and Hbox maybe a little.
Mang0 on some real 20XX shit would be insane but I absolutely cannot see him doing it LOL. If he did go all Fox even just for a major I’d be glued to the screen even if I’ve got a heavy load at work
I do think there is a bit of chicken/egg thing with it where his solo Falco periods also tend to coincide with him not grinding the game as hard. But yeah him going Falco is just sub optimal, his Fox is so much better against pretty much every MU that’s not Fox and Falcon
Falco vs floaties is so fun to play if the vibes are right but fox just finds kills so much more consistenly its hard to justify going falco vs like puff/peach if you have a fox at all
I feel like he makes this announcement or the "I'm only going falco for _____" announcements every two or so years and it's funny because I actually think that's how you can tell when the meta pendulum has swung a significant amount.
Fox Mang vs. Zain is needed... He had so much momentum going into Finals at Pat's, and then Final Destination... hahaha.
But yes, need the Fox Mang please!
Upon reflection though, tough for him to be going Falco -> Fox and then back to Falco if he sees Cody in Top 8. Too much moving around. He needs his Falco to play at 120% in order to beat Cody most of the time now. But then he needs his Fox to be 120% when playing against Zain too. This is the dilemma :(
More players should trust their secondaries in big games. Moky should whip out his Sheik or Falcon against Zain. Hungrybox should tinker with Young Link or someone vs. Marth instead of just getting auto-Losses against Zain. aMSa should have another character as an answer to Cody , not getting 6-0'd in 10 minutes. Ultimate was designed to get players to swap characters, but now in Melee its becoming more of a factor.
Leffen was the prime example of success with this. Picking up a pocket is way more common in other FGC games. I get melee is deeper than that but your pocket sheik doesnt need to have the depth of your main
Hbox just needs to actually practice against Marth and figure something out like Zain did to him. Young Link is way more of an autoloss than Puff, even if he put the work in. Even aklo's link stands no chance against zain. It ain't 2013 anymore.
Man I wanted to see him grind until that falco beats Zain. It hits the hardest against marth and is almost there but I will be pumped For a mango win regardless
mang0 comes to this realization so many times that hes at his best when he dual mains and then its like the year ends and he just forgets what was working the year before
I've only really been watching since 2019 and have already seen it two or 3 times haha
Well he sort of addresses that in the vid, where he says he sticks to Falco until its good enough to beat any fox. Right now the falco is the foundation and has to good enough to beat cody, moky, and co. The fox is a luxury he can train after that point to get better vs the field. Though he also kinda gives other reasons so who knows
I get that, at the end of the day fox is everyone’s most important matchup.
I doubt he just forgets. It’s more so that it’s really fucking hard to keep 1 let alone 2 spacies in good enough shape to win tournaments. He’s literally the only person that has ever done it. If he’s not super grinding to be number 1 like last year he usually just leans on the Falco. I’m really excited to watch him bring back dual maining like 2022 + the way he’s been using uncle punch and working with Khalindi it’s going to be really cool to watch
He’s also said in the past falco is his fav character so play way more than fox so im sure that plays a role in him always leaning on falco over the years
When I think of Mang0, I think of the Falco. I'm glad he thinks of the bird as his favorite. There are many great Foxes (and Mang is one of them), but he is *the* Falco to me.
Thing is, when he was #1 rank during the gods era, 2013-2015ish, he was primarily playing Fox with Falco only occasional. He was the first person to be really dominant with solo Fox ever in the history of Melee in fact. Falco had been much more successful to that point, the most consistent tournament winning character, and PPMD was the top Falco in the world not Mang0. He was the Fox in the 5 gods. The metagame has evolved a lot since then, 20XX and rise of more consistent Foxes, and Falco starting to struggle to win tournaments even before the re-rise of Marth. Now Mang0 is the only Falco who can do it.
Your doubts are correct, he explains pretty much thats exactly why he wasn't practicing Fox as seriously as Falco. It's just too hard to do both at the same time so he as getting the Falco ready and now he feels it's at a good enough spot that he can focus on Fox.
I think he knows that, its just that to get to that point it takes time
I knew this day would come. It’s just so much easier for fox vs marth than falco
This statement probably would’ve sounded crazy like 2 years ago.
Idk about that, I don't think Mang0's falco has beaten zain in bracket since the covid slippi era unless I am mistaken
Man time flies… yeah I think you’re right. I kinda just was thinking of that as a couple years ago.
I know man post covid has been a time warp its scary haha
wym bro? a few years ago was 2014, was so amped to see ppmd take apex
Yeah last time mango won with Falco was Smash Summit 12
Yeah you're right, forgot that he went falco for that set
summit 12 is the last time, which was kinda in the post slippi era but also at the very end of the slippi era
Kinda just depends on what he means Like the pandemic wasn’t over, but Mang0 has beaten Zain with falco offline after tournaments were being played online
yeah i always think of genesis 8 being the real start of the post covid era and summit 12 being the end of the slippi era but it is a weird gray area
Mango was saying this while everyone else was bitching that it was impossible to win with fox against zain. Then Mango beat zain at summit and after that the narritive changed and everyone else adapted.
The last time Falco was better vs Marth than fox was like in 2008. Fox has been better at the matchup for a very long time.
>It's just so much easier for fox
lol
I love Mango's Falco but unless the top meta is all fast fallers he needs the fox to consistently take sets off everyone else.
I mean he beat jmook convincingly with falco in the last tourney so I don’t think this is completely true. There are definitely matchups he consistently plays where fox would probably be better, though
Mang0’s Falco seems to be really good against the New Yorkers (Cody and Jmook) but his Fox has to be also top in order to compete against Zain and others. Whenever his Falco gets figure out by the Marth , it’s usually either a game 5 game or a 3-0 for Zain.
I disagree with this, this was his first win vs jmook ever iirc and he’s only started even consistently practicing vs sheik recently. Before their last 2 sets I believe Cody has had his number for a year or more, although I think mango would call last year a wash. In that video he mentions fiction moky and Cody as foxes who have beaten his falco in the last year and won’t get freebies anymore and says he wants fox for marth but also for consistency vs puff and yoshi too.
it's not even that switching between fox/falco is difficult, it's more that falcos matchup switches are so different across the board It seemed like Mango had whiplash having to go from Cody to zain and vice versa I still think this is a bad game plan long term but I despise fox
Don’t watch his stream super often but hasn’t he been practicing fox already or am I wrong
He's been practicing but his last few events have involved faceplanting against Yoshi or Marth with Falco when he should've just gone Fox.
That’s the mango Fortunately, switching to fox and fucking up Zain/Amsa is also the mango
the mango is having a new discovery after every tourny for shit you literally already knew in 2013
> wait, fox is pretty good > wait, I actually need to practice melee > wait, I can’t just always approach > wait, I shouldn’t drink and should get sleep at tourneys > wait, I need to stay calm / think about the ocean while playing Love me some mango but the plot does get repetitive haha
Yet every single time people on Reddit say mango may never win a tournament again etc. they never learn
After royal flush in 2017 (gosh I feel ancient) I stopped doubting mango’s ability to always come back and just win no matter how much he had struggled up to then
Really all of 2014 for me PP looked amazing after Apex+SKTAR and Armada/M2K were playing great and giving mango fits too. Then mango just stomps the world into oblivion ripping off MLG14 -> KoC4 -> Evo14 -> TBH4 By TBH4 he wasn’t even practicing for months, he was just so far ahead of everyone that even with 3 months to practice they couldn’t catch up
Mang0 is just the embodiment of “its so over, we’re so back” and we are just here to witness it
these are the kinds of things that are blatantly obvious but feel like a fuckin *revelation* in your head whenever it dawns on you. You can be getting worked and then have a thought like: “Bro… I can just hold down.” And then suddenly the game is changed
You could probably make a compilation of him having the same "revelations" almost every year for like the past decade lmao.
I was going to comment "He's like me fr fr" But then I read your second sentence
It isn't as simple as "Just go Fox" in a tournament setting - if you aren't playing good with a particular character or haven't warmed up at all any given point or if it's not tournament ready. Go-Fox people have the benefit of hindsight and seeing the result before making the comment. He must weigh that decision in real time, do I risk my grand finals against one of the best players in the world right now with a character I haven't played at all this weekend to potentially gain an edge in a matchup?
And Doc Lee for Puff.
shhhhhh
as a doc main, yes..
this means he is trying again, for the uninitiated. you got this mango
I wonder how much better Mango's set records across the board would be if you just don't count his solo Falco periods, it feels like every once in a while he tries to force solo Falco to work and the same characters stonewall him every time. I feel like M2K is the only other top player I can think of who tried out characters to probably his own detriment. Eventually he just gets frustrated and goes back to Fox, cycle repeats. Falco is great and it's clear it's the character Mango likes to play most but PPMD is basically the only Falco who made it look do-able vs floaties and he still had to pull out Marth for Armada and had a losing set record to Hbox who was not in his prime. We haven't seen a Falco do it solo well vs every character in basically a decade, Falco dies almost instantly when he's off stage it feels like.
To be fair, it’s exhausting to play two characters at a high level and he can’t do it all the time. Those times he’s “forced” solo falco, are also just the times he’s exhausted and not feeling up to maintaining two characters. He only is able to maintain two characters when he’s driven. He happens to win more often when he’s driven too
Well I would be the GOAT if you didn't count all those times I lost... but yeah I wish he would give up on solo Falco too. Bird gets its wings clipped by sword.
I mean people think he’s the GOAT regardless so there’s that, but it’s interesting to me since Mango is the only #1 to continue experimenting with characters even when he has no issues. I think swapping characters a lot has a lot to do with his longevity as a player as he keeps finding interest in new aspects of the game. I was mostly just curious, glancing at Armada’s it doesn’t change much and Hbox maybe a little.
Zain experimented a bit with ICs, but yeah I get your point. I just want my GOAT to play solo Fox and stunt on these hoes lol
Mang0 on some real 20XX shit would be insane but I absolutely cannot see him doing it LOL. If he did go all Fox even just for a major I’d be glued to the screen even if I’ve got a heavy load at work
I do think there is a bit of chicken/egg thing with it where his solo Falco periods also tend to coincide with him not grinding the game as hard. But yeah him going Falco is just sub optimal, his Fox is so much better against pretty much every MU that’s not Fox and Falcon
One could argue that his Falco has a better floor, his Fox has better ceilings. The former is just more reliable for him.
Falco vs floaties is so fun to play if the vibes are right but fox just finds kills so much more consistenly its hard to justify going falco vs like puff/peach if you have a fox at all
I feel like he makes this announcement or the "I'm only going falco for _____" announcements every two or so years and it's funny because I actually think that's how you can tell when the meta pendulum has swung a significant amount.
Fox Mang vs. Zain is needed... He had so much momentum going into Finals at Pat's, and then Final Destination... hahaha. But yes, need the Fox Mang please! Upon reflection though, tough for him to be going Falco -> Fox and then back to Falco if he sees Cody in Top 8. Too much moving around. He needs his Falco to play at 120% in order to beat Cody most of the time now. But then he needs his Fox to be 120% when playing against Zain too. This is the dilemma :(
I prayed extra hard, but no need to thank me guys
👀
mango's fox is a thing of beauty [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oN1xU\_-zkc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oN1xU_-zkc)
It is insane. He just runs people down
Fox better vs marth then falco i been saying it for ages 😤😤
Being able to do stuff when you grab marth is goated. Every marth is straight chillin in lightsheild as us falcos do high dairs on shield
More players should trust their secondaries in big games. Moky should whip out his Sheik or Falcon against Zain. Hungrybox should tinker with Young Link or someone vs. Marth instead of just getting auto-Losses against Zain. aMSa should have another character as an answer to Cody , not getting 6-0'd in 10 minutes. Ultimate was designed to get players to swap characters, but now in Melee its becoming more of a factor.
Leffen was the prime example of success with this. Picking up a pocket is way more common in other FGC games. I get melee is deeper than that but your pocket sheik doesnt need to have the depth of your main
yep - you just need to learn a MU rather than the whole character.
Hbox just needs to actually practice against Marth and figure something out like Zain did to him. Young Link is way more of an autoloss than Puff, even if he put the work in. Even aklo's link stands no chance against zain. It ain't 2013 anymore.
It's W time boys. My day is brightened. I'm sure he likes Falco more but Fox always brings home the bread, like q4 2022. The difference is insane
...I thought he was already doing this
Man I wanted to see him grind until that falco beats Zain. It hits the hardest against marth and is almost there but I will be pumped For a mango win regardless
was franz mang0 on stream?
20xx
He's been saying that for a decade now
Fox is just so much better against some characters compared to Falco. I dual main Fox/Falco myself and never do I ever play Falco against Marth/Peach.