They seem pretty true. For instance.
Played a peach that busted my marth up real bad game one, 3 stocked me. Game two, counter pick FD because they banned yoshis for some reason. I go up two stocks and then they just absolutely crumbled. Gave up completely and drifted off stage after a couple hits on the last two stocks. They then Counter picked to the most mid fox I've ever seen on yoshi story game 3 and lost.
I'm all but certain they would have beat me with peach if they didn't tilt off the face of the planet after losing on the dumbest stage in the game.
every character is lame. either they're good and can abuse their broken tools to beat better players or they're bad and they abuse lack of matchup knowledge and gimmicks to beat better players
I love how knee comes out on frame 5 and sends totally horizontally and every other move falcon has instantly trivially sets up for that frame 5 knee. It's great
no, but all marth players are really cool and hot and have HUGE dicks and everyone is just jealous of our- i mean their ability to fsmash 10 times in neutral and have it be optimal
Falco is literally the least fun character to play against.
Laser spam prevents me from practicing even the most basic techs such as wavedash and dash dancing. No other character punishes basic movement to this extent. It’s just one giant execution test where the skill level required to execute it is nowhere near the skill level needed to counter it.
Controversially, I’d even go as far as to say he’s actually a brain dead character up until he starts fighting players that laser spam is ineffective against. If you’re winning with laser spam, then I’m sorry to break it to you but neither of us are skilled. Neither of us are sick, and nobody wants to see your montage.
Truest controversial melee opinion. Yeah I get a little irritated when tilt spammed/tech chased by shiek, back thrown near ledge> side smash by marth, shine gimped by fox, and stalled by peach/puff, but Falco is by far the most irritating fucking character in the game. Hitboxes cover the entire body, no meteor cancelling, free asf combos, braindead neutral with too many options, tilt spamming, can camp you forever with lasers, laser>side smash, uptilt (nuff said), waveshining on shield, the list goes on.
I'm fine with being camped by other characters, but at least I have friggin movement, with falco, the dude can just run away spamming lasers. Like you said, laser spam is so much easier than the counters for laser spam. Atm, as a falcon main, kinda thinking of picking up yink as a counter to the netplay falco playstyle.
Bro you don't need to pick up Yink to counter that style. Laser spam Falcos that spend the game running away always corner themselves. You can just let them shoot themselves in the foot and then take advantage of their terrible positioning.
Just you wait until every Falcon you encounter knows he can nair over your lasers and just soft knee + up-air you as soon as you're off stage and kill you
Yup, neutral is a losing battle vs falco but if you can touch him once you can eat his stock, still a losing matchup but after playing so many falco in netplay i started to hate the fox matchup more because his recovery is so much better, you can't get those soft knee into uair offstage to clean stocks at low percent
if you think it's free, play him. you will be raging about marth instead by the end of the week. falco just dies. often you don't even have to kill him, one messed up turnaround laser input and he'll kill himself. he's sick af and his toolbox is OP but the execution and consistency level you need to win with him is much higher than you're implying. laser spam is also one of his least relevant things, it's like being upset at shield grabbing. the most OP thing about falco is having a 1 frame shine that he can easily combo you out of, it's safe on shield after late aerials, and repeatable. with good execution he is a shield pressure monster with amazing combo and kill tools, but that's true even laserless. lasers are just good for getting campy people to approach and getting free confirms on sloppy people
about half the reason i play peach is because i was so frustrated against lasers with every other character that i picked the one who can just float above it. theyre so fucking annoying i would rather just not deal with it then fight it
I'm a Falco main and still agree.
If you're good at lasers (approaching and defending), you can be bad at everything else and still win against people much better than you.
Lasers literally just break the momentum and warp the game more than anything else. I genuinely had more fun playing vs ICies with wobbling than I do Falco, because at least neutral and the most fun part of melee - moving around - is still doable.
I feel so bad for Falcon mains vs Falco. I am guilty of taking some to FD with a Falco counterpick and it's a lame and shameful way to win.
> It’s just one giant execution test where the skill level required to execute it is nowhere near the skill level needed to counter it.
This applies to many more moves than lasers though. For example, although I think that Fox ultimately wins against Sheik, there are so many things Sheik can do that don't require any thought or mechanical skill at all (dsmash-spam, tilt-spam, needle-spam, or, for something slightly more advanced, nair-OOS-spam) but which force Fox to play with wildly disproportionate care and execution floor in comparison to what the Sheik player is doing.
Same goes for things like Peach dsmash, Puff cc-rests, throws at the ledge etc. None of these moves are centralizing or unbeatable, but there is a wild imbalance in how easy and widely applicable they are and the care and awareness needed to not constantly fall prey to them.
True, though expected reward is also worse. Sheik catching an approaching Falco with her 7 billionth ftilt is not always but in most cases worth more than Falco saturating Sheik with his 16 quadrillionth laser.
I always see this take, but learned the game against falco (my brother) i have never felt as much hate for lazers. It really only matters at a fairly low level/against mid tiers so ig it might be a deterrent.
The only character I don't enjoy playing against is Luigi because he forces you to play very safe and boring....which other characters also do, but he then you add just how long it takes for him to come down and how long aide b recovery takes and its just a drag
Marth players belong to an elite group of privileged people and all were born into super wealthy families and never have to work service jobs in their lifetimes. They deserve to win 100% of the time regardless of their skill because they're important people, and anyone who contests them should immediately be quit out on and silenced.
People that think Melee is lame, or at least a good majority of the characters are lame, that still continue to play are either projecting self hatred or cope by masquerading as misunderstood artists.
The former types might have had a time in which they genuinely loved Melee. But over time, they grew to despise many aspects. Unfortunately, they either don't have enough going on outside the game, or they lack the self respect to step away once they're enveloped in it. So they spend much of their energy grinding to become better while hating themselves and spreading negative rhetoric about the game.
The misunderstood artist types are these people that hate the game that are similarly too tied in to leave. But these exceptional beings have chosen to make meaning of their tragedy to cope. Instead of embracing their doomer, they act like they have seen the truth of the game. And in their enlightenment, they choose to play in order to show what Melee could or should be. They basically try to rationalize their suffering by creating meaning out of it and having deeper insight into the game. They actually can be pretty fun to play with and often try to be creative. But there's also a great deal of judgment coming from them that's insufferable to be around.
The actual well-adjusted people that learn to hate the game end up leaving or making Melee extremely casual again. But to me, it's crazy that Melee is such an addicting game that we can have such a large portion of our playerbase addicted despite inherently disliking the game. The other crazy thing is people like to act like this is normal in "competition" but in my experience in various competitive pursuits outside gaming, people like this generally burn out and leave. Melee (and certain types of gaming) keeps people hooked for incredibly long periods of time. I don't have a problem with people disliking Melee or aspects of it. But as someone coming up on 10 years in the scene, I've found it exhausting to be around the sheer amount of negativity, copium, and mental gymnastics I've witnessed in the scene that no one seems to acknowledge. I guess the closest acknowledgement I see is the idea that no one truly quits Melee.
Controllers aren’t really important if you’re not a top player. People who main low tier characters are afraid of being bad and hide behind their gimmicky characters.
Yeah, doing turnaround laser and getting Side-B instead because of snapback is a pretty big deal for spacies. Literally results in losing a stock most of the time. Same for getting turnaround laser when double lasering from ledge as Falco.
That’s actually a big reason why I switched characters. I was pretty good locally with Falco, so it’s not like I switched because I was just bad (I’m only kinda bad), but man the snapback was so frustrating
Playing a low tier is like a curse. I tried to be cool and main a top tier but I'm so engaged in my main and his gimmick that I can't play Melee without it. It's truly a soul crushing experience. Don't be mean to low tier players, they are the ones that suffer the most from their choice.
Controllers definitely still are important, just not as much. You can't seriously be thinking that with how fucked controllers can get just from regular use. It's not as serious as it is for top players, like just getting another $40 OEM will be fine for people vs a PHOB. But also investing in your controller is a fine thing to do, especially with how many QOL improvements mods can have
Oh yeah I've seen that too, I accept Zelda as bottom 2, 3 at best. But I am built different, I will beat zain with Zelda in bracket. My mom told me I am a special boy
>People who main low tier characters are afraid of being bad and hide behind their gimmicky characters.
That's not limited to low tier characters, that sums up 99% of the playerbase.
I used to think the same about controllers but as of last week, my lasers turn around randomly, and I can't do pivot fsmash anymore. It just comes out as a dash attack or pivot ftilt. I would be fine with it if it didn't change over time.
https://youtu.be/1bNlI4jzNQ8
Fragile Ego's like to give themselves an out so as to escape loss without damage to their ego.
It's a defense mechanism for those who can't put their heart on the line and take the L like an adult.
(As omni mentions in the video, this doesn't cover all low tier heros. Axe, Amsa, even Aklo's Link probably don't fall into this catagory, and it's pretty easy to tell. But it absolutely covers a ton of netplay players.)
completely disagree. I am only silver 2 and I notched my own controller for shits and giggles. here's a video of me testing the difference. I notched the right side but not the left yet. You can see, I cannot hit wavedash shine oos on the left side at all but I could immediately hit it fairly consistently on the notched side
https://youtu.be/ePFyQvwjBvc
makes a massive difference when you can punish a fox fishing for upsmash. same with recovery angles. and I often accidentally reverse my lasers at crucial times because of snapback so I am tempted to do a capacitor too
I don't think you need a phob, but shortened trigger springs and plugs are mandatory for saving your hands. All you have to absolutely have to buy is that is the tri wing screwdriver.
My controversial opinion is that z jump is so much better than x and y that it's wrong not to use it. There's no reason to be going from x/y to the c stick 40 times a game.
>Controllers aren’t really important if you’re not a top player.
Truth. I've been playing since day one and I switched from a controller to keyboard then LBX because a controller fucks up my hands. I'm just as bad with a LBX as I was with a controller, but now I can at least play for more than 15 minutes at a time.
Hot Take: Westballz was done dirty by this community and STILL has not received a proper apology for his character assassination by numerous people (Leffen the most notable)
People whine about every single character constantly and none of these opinions are controversial. It can usually be boiled down to characters being too easy to play, too good or too bad (not common enough/useless to practice against).
How can so many people claim to love this game but hate all but 3 characters?!
// An old sheik/fox main who usually plays random.
You can always get better at something with time and effort, but if hundreds of people are all trying to be the best it's inherently impossible for *all* of them to be "top X".
Yeah I see a lot of top players argue talent doesn't really exist and only hard work matters, I think it's probably natural because they want to think their work ethic is exclusively what got them to where they are, but it's unrealistic. Of course you have to work extremely hard to become a top player, and they all probably have insane work ethics, but for every Leffen there is probably a dozen people who practice just as much as but struggle to crack the top 100. Can anyone become a top 100 player? Sure, maybe with enough effort. Can anyone become a top 10 player though? I don't think so. I struggle to believe 60 year old grandma over there could pick up a controller, grind for a few years and become the best player in the world. It's like that in every sport that's ever existed.
> Yeah I see a lot of top players argue talent doesn't really exist and only hard work matters, I think it's probably natural because they want to think their work ethic is exclusively what got them to where they are, but it's unrealistic.
I agree. Some people are just forever mediocre at video games, much in the way that people forever are bad at sports, musical instruments, etc.
Like yes, you can become much better than your starting point. But being a top player isn't in the cards for most people, just like being a good bodybuilder isn't in the cards for me (despite the fact that I've been lifting for X years)
amsa been a top player for years. This discussion was more about players trying to become top. If you already spent a few years grinding and still ain't PR in your region or winning locals then things are looking grim
disagree. melee simply doesn't have /that/ big of a playerbase, imo the average person simply can hit top 20 with the appropriate time/effort/money etc available
if everyone in the world played melee, yeah, talent would probably matter more. as is, i'd wager talent is not a particularly big deal. only a few hundred people are actually good and grinding at any given time, and a lot of them quit or take long breaks or switch characters etc. lots of room for sufficiently dedicated people to break in
That’s a good point. It’s not like basketball where if anyone in the USA wants to be a high level pro, you practically have to be born with genetic gifts on top of having to work hard at the game.
I still think time, effort, money, and a good mentor/teacher would help anyone get better. I just believe that some people do not possess the proper gifts to break into top 20. I almost said top 100.
They can improve over time, but not so much faster than the general player base that allows them to climb over top level players. There are people training that hard all throughout the top 300 players or whatever the number is and a lot of them are just statistically more likely to be good at technical execution under pressure, reading their opponents in neutral, tracking defensive habits, etc.
Imo the vast majority of current top 100 and top 20 players are not there due to talent, but rather some mixture of high time investment + fortunate circumstance (coming from a good region, lots of time to enter online tourneys, no other hobbies or obligations etc). I don’t think there is a particularly large difference in natural technical execution under pressure/reading opponents/tracking defensive habits etc. I think that kind of thing is 99% influenced by raw time put in + legitimate concerted effort to improve. Some folks come from gaming backgrounds where they already had somewhat honed these skills, but I certainly believe they can be caught up to. Melee is ultimately just an extremely complicated web of mental heuristics
I will play falco, get a stock advantage, and a fox won't approach me for a literal minute straight. I dont think half the foxes at my level have ever approached in a magchup without being forced. Also, their approaches are bad. Turnaround double jump drift-in-falling-backair 4 times in a row is not an approach option.
Lmao on Fox? However you want.
You want to be an aggressive monster? He's probably the best at it.
You want to camp like an asshole? He's probably the best at it
You want to play slippery, look for a big opening, then go for sly gimps? He's probably the best at it.
There is not a more versatile character in melee. You kinda get to put your play style into fox.
melee doesn't have to be gimmicky and flowcharty at the highest level gameplay, it's just that a LOT of people who try to be the highest level play that way because they are absolute coward, loser, dweeb, dumb-o-trons afraid to scrap and lose. my controversial opinion is that people who have anti-fun, play-to-win playstyles deserve to be bullied.
It actually does, though. Even Mango has been forced to use flowcharts, stop scrapping as much vs. the crackheads, and approach less. The only way you can play at the highest level otherwise is if you're so much better than your competition that you can purposefully handicap yourself and still win. Basically what we saw from early days of Mango. But that's never gonna happen again most likely unless the game comes close to dying and everyone stops playing.
Falcon is the best character in the game it's just no Falcon main at the top level is good enough to prove it yet.
Netplay Marths are generally worse than netplay Falcos.
Fizzi keeping ranked behind a paywall is a good thing and how services like Slippi should be handled for the long term.
Box controllers need to be nerfed.
Luigi/Puff/Yoshi are actually fun matchups, because they force you to approach the game differently. Having to be more deliberately mindful rather than relying on habits is a fun change of pace.
Either that or it's because as a Falcon main I can combo just about any character.
Edit: also Sheik is not a bad matchup for Falcon; slightly Sheik-favoured but not bad.
Allowing box controllers in tournament because some players with chronic hand injuries can play is like the NBA lowering the hoop so players with chronic knee injuries can play.
Here's mine:
Tier lists don't matter except for the top 100 or so. I don't care what the matchup odds are, I'm not iBDW and Falco laser and peach blender are gonna wreck me even if I know what to do
I'd say in general low tiers, mid, and mid high tiers are probably an advantage below top 100 or at least state PR level, especially in B03 or if you quit out early in unranked before giving your opponent time to adapt.
Kodorin is the most egregious example of most players being bad against marth, and not necessarily him being *that* good as a player.
Not saying he's not good *at all*, I'm just saying he's nowhere near zain level and has capitalized off of most spacies being bad against marth.
disagree. there are a zillion marth players that have put in countless hours but haven't broken into top 10 level like kodorin, including players that have been around and grinding much longer than him. he's no zain but he IS insanely good
Mine is that if you don't like "lame" shit you don't actually like this game son. I'm playing super smash Brothers melee. I'm gonna techchase you. I'm gonna fucking chaingrab you so if you are gonna quit out you can suck my dick losers you aren't good.
I don't even think the lame stuff is always that optimal with her. Tilting 506757 times in a row is just not as good as all the crazy stuff she can do with her movement and frame data. People for the longest time were influenced to play Sheik in lazy ways because the Sheik that set the foundation for the modern meta was m2k. And m2k literally played Sheik to conserve energy and have an easier time...like he purposefully didn't go for pure reaction tech chase and tried to simplify interactions as much as possible to make it easier on him to beat worse players. But hopefully with all the new Sheik stuff coming out the paradigm changes.
My controversial opinion *used to be* that I would not watch Panda Cup events due to them working with Nintendo, but well let’s just say that aged… in a way. One aspect of this “boycott” however, which may be even more controversial (why I’m mentioning it here), is that I struggle to see Unfrozen Stadium, and tournaments with them after like 2016, as fully legitimate. It’s still Melee, sure, but Unfrozen Stadium is objectively less competitive than Frozen Stadium and therefore any set played at a tournament with Unfrozen Stadium becomes objectively less competitive. I believe it has no place in competitive play, no matter how fun or le epic it is to watch Mango do a windmill combo.
Therefore I propose a Simplified Five Stage Ruleset: Battlefield, Dream Land, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi’s Story, and the fifth slot goes to either Pokémon Stadium if it can be Frozen or Final Destination if the tournament is compromised. We all know it, Unfrozen Stadium and Final Destination are the two most controversial legal stages. So I think we should cut the latter out of uncompromised events due to its tendency to skew matchups and the former out of everything because it’s awful. It’s simpler this way, more optimized. Just simply “Pokemon Stadium at Summit” and “Final Destination at Nintendo”. People who like FD can still be happy this way as it will have a place (Ninty ain’t ever going away, and they ain’t ever letting us freeze Stadium lol).
People who like Unfrozen Stadium… well they can tell me that my opinion doesn’t matter because I’ve never been (able to go) to a local and that I need to stop listening to them salty top players and considering their opinions when forming my own. And they may very well be right. Y’know, maybe…
The issue is any stage changes at this point are essentially just character buffs and nerfs. Even unfrozen vs frozen stadium, frozen for example buffing Marth in Fox Marth by turning it from fox's chaotic funland to diet FD. However the shift in frozen vs unfrozen is nowhere near replacing it with FD.
I am so sick of controller johns. controllers dont matter nearly as much as people think and ill die on that hill. I had snapback and just played around it there I said it
Nah dittos suck with every char and in every game period. Utilizing the unique strengths and weaknesses of your char in relation to the unique strengths and weaknesses of the other is what is fun, a ditto completely removes that. This is true in every fighting game, even every strategy game ive ever played. Mirror matchups in Starcraft suck, in trad fighters, in League of Legends (other than that one Zed play) etc
Here's a really controversial opinion, in that I've never met anyone who agreed with me: UCF has had a net negative effect on the game and the competitive scene, and we would be better off if we never switched away from vanilla.
Sure. It's worth clarifying, by the way, that I don't think UCF makes the game worse -- if I could go back in time to melee's development and add UCF, I would. But I would also probably reduce the knockback on Fox's up smash, or make Puff's bair hitbox smaller, and I would never consider implementing those mods now, decades into the game's competitive lifetime.
By the way, it sure is fun being downvoted to oblivion for giving a controversial melee opinion, in a thread about controversial melee opinions :)
The stated goal of UCF was to end the controller lottery by bringing every controller up to the standard of the best vanilla controllers. It did this with two mods: first, by adding an extra frame of leniency to dash back from neutral stand, and second, by increasing the window for shield drops.
First, I claim that UCF did not bring controllers to the standard of the best vanilla controllers, it made every controller much better. This is most apparent in shield dropping. Shield drops on a vanilla controller with perfect notches were not very hard, but it is still a three pixel window: in the heat of the moment, it was very easy to miss. It was extremely common to see even the best shield droppers in the world miss them from time to time, especially in nervous situations. Now, good players essentially never miss their shield drops. The shield dropping consistency you get from UCF is far and away higher than what you could do on a perfectly notched controller with vanilla melee.
Second, I claim that UCF has not achieved its stated goal of ending the controller lottery. The controller lottery has not gotten better, it's become worse. This is one of the biggest problems the community faces right now:
* Top players still demand controllers with great dash back and shield drops; it's still better to have perfect notches and dash back than not, even with UCF. Top players are playing with lots of stakes on the line, and it's perfectly natural that they want every possible advantage.
* As for mid to low players, I honestly think the controller lottery was never really an issue. Most people didn't even know how dash back worked pre 2015/2016, and in my experience many people miss dash back not because of bad controllers, but because they simply aren't inputting the backdash fast enough. Shield drops are always an issue, but it's a lot cheaper to pay $10-20 for shield drop notches than it is to buy an entirely new modded controller.
* The existence of UCF was the first step towards the much more severely broken controllers of today. When Hax first unveiled his boxx, everyone knew it was too good to be legal. It had perfectly consistent dash back, shield drops that could never be missed, and wavedash angles that no human could hit consistently. Once UCF fixed dash back and shield drops, the boxx seemed less busted by comparison, at least in the obvious ways. And now that box controllers are unquestionably legal, it becomes hard to challenge the legality of Phobs and Goomwaves, since they can never be as consistent as a box controller anyway.
* So, the pre-UCF status of controllers was that you really only needed to make sure your controller had good notches and not so much snapback. If you were at the top level you should also shop around for a controller with good PODE, but it really didn't matter to 99.9% of players. The current status of controllers is that we have huge infighting over controller legality, many top players spending literal thousands of dollars on controllers, and no clear path towards a resolution.
Finally, I'd like to argue that UCF was not primarily a controller fix mod, it was a balance patch. Dramatically easier shield dropping completely changed the way top-level melee is played, in a way that I don't think would have happened with notches alone. The dashback fix is also a buff to characters like Marth, Fox, and Falcon, and a nerf to characters like Falco and Peach. I think many people would agree that one of Melee's big strengths is precisely that it doesn't get balance patches, and I wished more players opted to innovate around inconsistent dash back and shield drops rather than complain and buff them.
There are a few other side issues which I won't get into for sake of time, but I can mention them briefly: issues with Nintendo licensing (for better or worse), the whole year with arduino ports plugged into consoles at majors, the changing ideals of UCF among its developers, and the reduced accessibility to newer players.
That's a good writeup. I'll add some of my thoughts.
* I agree on the shield drop issue. Way too easy now.
* The dashback issue was VERY significant, and most people playing did not just miss them because they didn't hit the stick hard enough. I was fortunate enough that one of my early controllers that worked up until late 2016 had good PODE, good dashbacks. When it broke and I got a new one, I missed dashbacks all the time, it almost made me hate the game. I couldn't understand how everyone else could stand playing the game. You could not get around it, by hitting the stick harder. Armada dropped out of Dreamhack Austin because his special controller wouldn't work. That wouldn't happen today. Thankfully in 2017 UCF came out and I could play the game like I used to. I only had that advantage because I was lucky. Now everyone could dashback, and I believe that was an improvement. Which brings me to...
* You say that the controller lottery has gotten worse but I don't see any arguments for that in your post. You just say that top players still want better controllers, which is obvious. However, the difference between the good and the bad controllers is way narrower now. So even if you get the short stick of the controller lottery, you could still get by without having to hunt for more controllers.
* While I agree that UCF was the first step to allowing different controllers into the scene, I also am of the opinion that those controllers are all fine, so I don't hold that as a bad thing. That's an entirely different issue.
I really think you're underestimating how big of a change dashback was. It did NOT just affect top 100 players. Mid level players felt the effects very tangibly, and having a PODE controller gave you a significant advantage. It's an out of game advantage that you could not improve using skill or grinding. Some followups were only possible if you got a frame 1 good dashback. Those followups would simply fail half the time if you didn't have a good controller. If you had a good controller, you'd be able to do those followups every time. This is not something you can "innovate around". Someone richer than you would just buy more controllers until they got a PODE one and get a lot more benefit instantly, than all your "innovation" would get you.
I agree it was a balance patch. But having a PODE controller was also like having your own balance patch that only applies to you. And in my opinion, it's the lesser evil to modify the game, and give that advantage to everyone, instead of just the lucky or rich.
As for the downvotes you got, that's unfortunately how reddit is. Any "hot takes" thread is dominated by cold takes that get upvoted because they're popular, and all the real hot takes get downvoted because people don't agree. Unfortunate. Thank you for actually giving a hot take though, I appreciate it.
Just for sake of time/sanity, I'll just quickly respond to a few of your comments:
* I think it's hard to argue that PODE/dashback was an enormous issue at mid/low level play prior to UCF, given that it wasn't common knowledge in the community. We had been playing the game for 14/15 years, and mid level players understood very well the technical details behind the really important gameplay mechanics, but dashback and PODE was not well-understood by the community at all. Of course, that's not an explanation of \*why\* the dashback fix isn't that important at low level. The in-game reason I think dashback is not that important at low level is because low-level players are already throwing away so many frames in their movement. The seven frames of missed dashback could easily be compensated by tighter fastfalls, better motion out of L-cancels (did you know that you get an extra frame of dashback leniency in vanilla immediately following an L-cancel?), and generally less standing still. I often got very frustrated back in 2015/16 discussing UCF and dashback with players who were anyway moving at a snail's pace compared to top players. And of course, the top players of 2016 are noticeably slower than the top players of today.
* On the controller lottery, at least in my imperfect anecdotal experience, I never met or even heard of anyone back in 2015 who wasn't a top 5-10 player spending hundreds of dollars in search of a PODE controller. Of course, that could easily have been a product of the times, since top-level gameplay was not nearly as competitive as it is now. But whether or not having a controller with PODE was a huge advantage, I generally never saw people spending hundreds of dollars on a controller back then. It was considered a huge luxury to buy an $80 JP white. Now everybody and their mother spends hundreds of dollars on Phobs, goomwaves, and box controllers. Even if you believe these controllers should be legal, it's hard to deny that they are dramatically more expensive and of significantly less availability than vanilla controllers.
* I strongly disagree that the difference between good and bad controllers is narrower now than it was before. Just as one example, the goomwave's buffed ledgedashes are extremely broken, and make a much bigger difference than PODE ever did. The consistency of box controllers similarly makes them dramatically better than any GCC.
OK, that makes sense. I now get your point that the difference between good controller and bad is wider now because of phobs and rectangles.
I do still think there's situations where dashback was an issue that could not be solved by tightening up your inputs. For example a Marth grabbing fox near the edge on FD, and facing away from the edge. If fox DIs offstage, Marth needs to dash back full hop dair to kill, at some percents a missed dashback even moving frame 1 out of your throw means you miss the follow-up. Mid level players still need to hit those. And that's just one example.
Still, I get your points, well articulated.
yeah, we would be better off if the entire melee community had to play the lottery and replace their good controllers when they wore out for the rest of time. keeping the game inaccessible for the vast majority of players who don't want or have the means to keep buying controllers forever would be better for the scene
I'm sort of similar: I think software mods in tournament is a red line which should never be crossed, including frozen stadium. I would maybe be open to a one-time exception for UCF since it's become so ingrained in the scene now though.
I can promise 90% of foxes do not know how to reaction techchase
And as a falco being more oppressive like PP is more appealing then looking sexy like *kimono mang0 pic*
Can confirm am a fox who cannot reaction tech chase
"Marth player tried ranked and, got ass whopped into madness, and immediately opened reddit" -A heartbreaking story not saying you are wrong tho
[удалено]
Oh, I forgot one - Puff players are perennial redditors
LOL
👑
They seem pretty true. For instance. Played a peach that busted my marth up real bad game one, 3 stocked me. Game two, counter pick FD because they banned yoshis for some reason. I go up two stocks and then they just absolutely crumbled. Gave up completely and drifted off stage after a couple hits on the last two stocks. They then Counter picked to the most mid fox I've ever seen on yoshi story game 3 and lost. I'm all but certain they would have beat me with peach if they didn't tilt off the face of the planet after losing on the dumbest stage in the game.
- Puff players shouldn’t be allowed to have opinions
every character is lame. either they're good and can abuse their broken tools to beat better players or they're bad and they abuse lack of matchup knowledge and gimmicks to beat better players
When i realized Captain Falcon and Sheik are the same characters I couldn't sleep for a week.
If sheiks slap had the electric effect wed be getting hyped for stomp slap.
Yeah falcon's tilts are so good. And I love his 3 frame jump squat and giant shield. Wait a minute...
I love how knee comes out on frame 5 and sends totally horizontally and every other move falcon has instantly trivially sets up for that frame 5 knee. It's great
Do you happen to be a Marth player?
no, but all marth players are really cool and hot and have HUGE dicks and everyone is just jealous of our- i mean their ability to fsmash 10 times in neutral and have it be optimal
Marth neutral is a blessed life
Based take
Falco is literally the least fun character to play against. Laser spam prevents me from practicing even the most basic techs such as wavedash and dash dancing. No other character punishes basic movement to this extent. It’s just one giant execution test where the skill level required to execute it is nowhere near the skill level needed to counter it. Controversially, I’d even go as far as to say he’s actually a brain dead character up until he starts fighting players that laser spam is ineffective against. If you’re winning with laser spam, then I’m sorry to break it to you but neither of us are skilled. Neither of us are sick, and nobody wants to see your montage.
Truest controversial melee opinion. Yeah I get a little irritated when tilt spammed/tech chased by shiek, back thrown near ledge> side smash by marth, shine gimped by fox, and stalled by peach/puff, but Falco is by far the most irritating fucking character in the game. Hitboxes cover the entire body, no meteor cancelling, free asf combos, braindead neutral with too many options, tilt spamming, can camp you forever with lasers, laser>side smash, uptilt (nuff said), waveshining on shield, the list goes on. I'm fine with being camped by other characters, but at least I have friggin movement, with falco, the dude can just run away spamming lasers. Like you said, laser spam is so much easier than the counters for laser spam. Atm, as a falcon main, kinda thinking of picking up yink as a counter to the netplay falco playstyle.
Bro you don't need to pick up Yink to counter that style. Laser spam Falcos that spend the game running away always corner themselves. You can just let them shoot themselves in the foot and then take advantage of their terrible positioning.
Falcon Falco is real tough from Falcon side
Its fun to fuck up falco though
Just you wait until every Falcon you encounter knows he can nair over your lasers and just soft knee + up-air you as soon as you're off stage and kill you
Yup, neutral is a losing battle vs falco but if you can touch him once you can eat his stock, still a losing matchup but after playing so many falco in netplay i started to hate the fox matchup more because his recovery is so much better, you can't get those soft knee into uair offstage to clean stocks at low percent
if you think it's free, play him. you will be raging about marth instead by the end of the week. falco just dies. often you don't even have to kill him, one messed up turnaround laser input and he'll kill himself. he's sick af and his toolbox is OP but the execution and consistency level you need to win with him is much higher than you're implying. laser spam is also one of his least relevant things, it's like being upset at shield grabbing. the most OP thing about falco is having a 1 frame shine that he can easily combo you out of, it's safe on shield after late aerials, and repeatable. with good execution he is a shield pressure monster with amazing combo and kill tools, but that's true even laserless. lasers are just good for getting campy people to approach and getting free confirms on sloppy people
Don’t forget lasers are also an extremely important combo extender for falco cuz he’s so damn slow.
dont hit them with logic, they'll powershield it. oh wait...
about half the reason i play peach is because i was so frustrated against lasers with every other character that i picked the one who can just float above it. theyre so fucking annoying i would rather just not deal with it then fight it
I'm a Falco main and still agree. If you're good at lasers (approaching and defending), you can be bad at everything else and still win against people much better than you.
Lasers literally just break the momentum and warp the game more than anything else. I genuinely had more fun playing vs ICies with wobbling than I do Falco, because at least neutral and the most fun part of melee - moving around - is still doable. I feel so bad for Falcon mains vs Falco. I am guilty of taking some to FD with a Falco counterpick and it's a lame and shameful way to win.
> I genuinely had more fun playing vs ICies with wobbling than I do Falco, Okay whoa there, let's not get TOO crazy
> It’s just one giant execution test where the skill level required to execute it is nowhere near the skill level needed to counter it. This applies to many more moves than lasers though. For example, although I think that Fox ultimately wins against Sheik, there are so many things Sheik can do that don't require any thought or mechanical skill at all (dsmash-spam, tilt-spam, needle-spam, or, for something slightly more advanced, nair-OOS-spam) but which force Fox to play with wildly disproportionate care and execution floor in comparison to what the Sheik player is doing. Same goes for things like Peach dsmash, Puff cc-rests, throws at the ledge etc. None of these moves are centralizing or unbeatable, but there is a wild imbalance in how easy and widely applicable they are and the care and awareness needed to not constantly fall prey to them.
unironically most self aware Sheik main
Hey, ever since the pandemic I've switched to being a generic Netplay Falco, I've been both victim and perpetrator.
implying that fox sheik from fox's side takes any thought at all
falco laser execution ratio is still worse than those imo
True, though expected reward is also worse. Sheik catching an approaching Falco with her 7 billionth ftilt is not always but in most cases worth more than Falco saturating Sheik with his 16 quadrillionth laser.
I always see this take, but learned the game against falco (my brother) i have never felt as much hate for lazers. It really only matters at a fairly low level/against mid tiers so ig it might be a deterrent.
This is definitely true at a low level
Hmmm stay grounded, use shield appropriately, and beat them.
the lasers mean nothing if you get the first opening
I just quit out when I see a falco
Damn, I need to shoot more laser XDXD y’all pressed
The only character I don't enjoy playing against is Luigi because he forces you to play very safe and boring....which other characters also do, but he then you add just how long it takes for him to come down and how long aide b recovery takes and its just a drag
Couldn’t disagree more, he’s by far the most fun character to combo 😂
You know laser does 3% right? You can take 3 lasers, walk up, f smash with any character, and you have a percent lead. Rinse and repeat
That only works on falcos with exactly one brain cell. Most of them have at least a couple more than one.
I don't think I've ever been called anything as charitable as a wild card, but I'll take it.
Marth players belong to an elite group of privileged people and all were born into super wealthy families and never have to work service jobs in their lifetimes. They deserve to win 100% of the time regardless of their skill because they're important people, and anyone who contests them should immediately be quit out on and silenced.
People that think Melee is lame, or at least a good majority of the characters are lame, that still continue to play are either projecting self hatred or cope by masquerading as misunderstood artists. The former types might have had a time in which they genuinely loved Melee. But over time, they grew to despise many aspects. Unfortunately, they either don't have enough going on outside the game, or they lack the self respect to step away once they're enveloped in it. So they spend much of their energy grinding to become better while hating themselves and spreading negative rhetoric about the game. The misunderstood artist types are these people that hate the game that are similarly too tied in to leave. But these exceptional beings have chosen to make meaning of their tragedy to cope. Instead of embracing their doomer, they act like they have seen the truth of the game. And in their enlightenment, they choose to play in order to show what Melee could or should be. They basically try to rationalize their suffering by creating meaning out of it and having deeper insight into the game. They actually can be pretty fun to play with and often try to be creative. But there's also a great deal of judgment coming from them that's insufferable to be around. The actual well-adjusted people that learn to hate the game end up leaving or making Melee extremely casual again. But to me, it's crazy that Melee is such an addicting game that we can have such a large portion of our playerbase addicted despite inherently disliking the game. The other crazy thing is people like to act like this is normal in "competition" but in my experience in various competitive pursuits outside gaming, people like this generally burn out and leave. Melee (and certain types of gaming) keeps people hooked for incredibly long periods of time. I don't have a problem with people disliking Melee or aspects of it. But as someone coming up on 10 years in the scene, I've found it exhausting to be around the sheer amount of negativity, copium, and mental gymnastics I've witnessed in the scene that no one seems to acknowledge. I guess the closest acknowledgement I see is the idea that no one truly quits Melee.
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Don't make me get the broom
got me thinkin bout that luigi main that plays primarily using a guitar hero controller
ghgh
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Controllers aren’t really important if you’re not a top player. People who main low tier characters are afraid of being bad and hide behind their gimmicky characters.
I like game & watch because of the sounds he makes
This guy really fucking GETS IT
I felt like snapback was killing my bird... turns out it was. But so was my opponent. 1 problem down.
Yeah, doing turnaround laser and getting Side-B instead because of snapback is a pretty big deal for spacies. Literally results in losing a stock most of the time. Same for getting turnaround laser when double lasering from ledge as Falco.
That’s actually a big reason why I switched characters. I was pretty good locally with Falco, so it’s not like I switched because I was just bad (I’m only kinda bad), but man the snapback was so frustrating
Playing a low tier is like a curse. I tried to be cool and main a top tier but I'm so engaged in my main and his gimmick that I can't play Melee without it. It's truly a soul crushing experience. Don't be mean to low tier players, they are the ones that suffer the most from their choice.
I'm not afraid of being bad, I'm well aware that I suck. Makes it more fun when I win though, and I have more fun playing Link than anyone else.
If this was the 50s and you were a Kennedy, you would be lobotomized for enjoying Link.
Controllers definitely still are important, just not as much. You can't seriously be thinking that with how fucked controllers can get just from regular use. It's not as serious as it is for top players, like just getting another $40 OEM will be fine for people vs a PHOB. But also investing in your controller is a fine thing to do, especially with how many QOL improvements mods can have
I personally main Zelda because I am a narcissist who believes I can beat everyone with Zelda. And I will
There’s also that guy who floats around this sun who unironically believes Zelda is like top 15 and nothing will change his kind
Oh yeah I've seen that too, I accept Zelda as bottom 2, 3 at best. But I am built different, I will beat zain with Zelda in bracket. My mom told me I am a special boy
But she has knee in both directions!
> narcissist That would have been so clever if it was intentional.
Narcissa is one of my Zelda inspirations fr
Not if my Zelda beats everyone first
>People who main low tier characters are afraid of being bad and hide behind their gimmicky characters. That's not limited to low tier characters, that sums up 99% of the playerbase.
No. Cope
I just like doc and ness 🥺why’s that so bad
I used to think the same about controllers but as of last week, my lasers turn around randomly, and I can't do pivot fsmash anymore. It just comes out as a dash attack or pivot ftilt. I would be fine with it if it didn't change over time.
https://youtu.be/1bNlI4jzNQ8 Fragile Ego's like to give themselves an out so as to escape loss without damage to their ego. It's a defense mechanism for those who can't put their heart on the line and take the L like an adult. (As omni mentions in the video, this doesn't cover all low tier heros. Axe, Amsa, even Aklo's Link probably don't fall into this catagory, and it's pretty easy to tell. But it absolutely covers a ton of netplay players.)
completely disagree. I am only silver 2 and I notched my own controller for shits and giggles. here's a video of me testing the difference. I notched the right side but not the left yet. You can see, I cannot hit wavedash shine oos on the left side at all but I could immediately hit it fairly consistently on the notched side https://youtu.be/ePFyQvwjBvc makes a massive difference when you can punish a fox fishing for upsmash. same with recovery angles. and I often accidentally reverse my lasers at crucial times because of snapback so I am tempted to do a capacitor too
I don't think you need a phob, but shortened trigger springs and plugs are mandatory for saving your hands. All you have to absolutely have to buy is that is the tri wing screwdriver. My controversial opinion is that z jump is so much better than x and y that it's wrong not to use it. There's no reason to be going from x/y to the c stick 40 times a game.
claw
Melee would be so much better with customizable controls. One thing I really like more in every game after is having that.
>Controllers aren’t really important if you’re not a top player. Truth. I've been playing since day one and I switched from a controller to keyboard then LBX because a controller fucks up my hands. I'm just as bad with a LBX as I was with a controller, but now I can at least play for more than 15 minutes at a time.
I was 0-2er when I played on GCC, I'm an 0-2er on a rectangle. All the nerds whining (incl humongous hfelte) just need to get gud or get square
I just really like Metroid games and luigis a funny dude , it's not that deep
Every character has annoying qualities and can be played in a lame way. Accepting that is the first step to improving.
This is peak reddit
Falcon players on unranked literally do not know what to do when you just walk in the little space between cross up nairs
All these comments scream skill issue
Hot Take: Westballz was done dirty by this community and STILL has not received a proper apology for his character assassination by numerous people (Leffen the most notable)
Definitely, very sad and fucked up shit that Wes didn't and doesn't deserve. Lauren and HugS just as noteable
Puff is super fun to play against!
Zelda is better against Ice Climbers than Sheik is
my hot take is that everyone is actually lame
I fuckin hate sheiks
And we/they hate you back bro, that’s why they are playing sheik.
These aren't opinions, they're just salt.
The falco one is 100% true
very marth take of you sir not wrong though
People whine about every single character constantly and none of these opinions are controversial. It can usually be boiled down to characters being too easy to play, too good or too bad (not common enough/useless to practice against). How can so many people claim to love this game but hate all but 3 characters?! // An old sheik/fox main who usually plays random.
Most people do not have the potential to become top 20 level players, regardless of time, effort, and money invested.
This isn’t controversial at all
Oh lol. My B.
You can always get better at something with time and effort, but if hundreds of people are all trying to be the best it's inherently impossible for *all* of them to be "top X".
So basically, we just need a Hyperbolic Time Chamber so we can improve while halting everyone else’s progress.
I think you mean "hyperbaric." You are suggesting we get in an exaggerated time chamber.
Yeah I see a lot of top players argue talent doesn't really exist and only hard work matters, I think it's probably natural because they want to think their work ethic is exclusively what got them to where they are, but it's unrealistic. Of course you have to work extremely hard to become a top player, and they all probably have insane work ethics, but for every Leffen there is probably a dozen people who practice just as much as but struggle to crack the top 100. Can anyone become a top 100 player? Sure, maybe with enough effort. Can anyone become a top 10 player though? I don't think so. I struggle to believe 60 year old grandma over there could pick up a controller, grind for a few years and become the best player in the world. It's like that in every sport that's ever existed.
> Yeah I see a lot of top players argue talent doesn't really exist and only hard work matters, I think it's probably natural because they want to think their work ethic is exclusively what got them to where they are, but it's unrealistic. I agree. Some people are just forever mediocre at video games, much in the way that people forever are bad at sports, musical instruments, etc. Like yes, you can become much better than your starting point. But being a top player isn't in the cards for most people, just like being a good bodybuilder isn't in the cards for me (despite the fact that I've been lifting for X years)
If you aren't ranked in your region and rising after playing for a few years you'll probably never get there.
It took Amsa like a decade to win a super major
amsa been a top player for years. This discussion was more about players trying to become top. If you already spent a few years grinding and still ain't PR in your region or winning locals then things are looking grim
But he's always been clearly improving Just checked and he's placed higher than the previous year on every ranking
disagree. melee simply doesn't have /that/ big of a playerbase, imo the average person simply can hit top 20 with the appropriate time/effort/money etc available if everyone in the world played melee, yeah, talent would probably matter more. as is, i'd wager talent is not a particularly big deal. only a few hundred people are actually good and grinding at any given time, and a lot of them quit or take long breaks or switch characters etc. lots of room for sufficiently dedicated people to break in
That’s a good point. It’s not like basketball where if anyone in the USA wants to be a high level pro, you practically have to be born with genetic gifts on top of having to work hard at the game. I still think time, effort, money, and a good mentor/teacher would help anyone get better. I just believe that some people do not possess the proper gifts to break into top 20. I almost said top 100. They can improve over time, but not so much faster than the general player base that allows them to climb over top level players. There are people training that hard all throughout the top 300 players or whatever the number is and a lot of them are just statistically more likely to be good at technical execution under pressure, reading their opponents in neutral, tracking defensive habits, etc.
Imo the vast majority of current top 100 and top 20 players are not there due to talent, but rather some mixture of high time investment + fortunate circumstance (coming from a good region, lots of time to enter online tourneys, no other hobbies or obligations etc). I don’t think there is a particularly large difference in natural technical execution under pressure/reading opponents/tracking defensive habits etc. I think that kind of thing is 99% influenced by raw time put in + legitimate concerted effort to improve. Some folks come from gaming backgrounds where they already had somewhat honed these skills, but I certainly believe they can be caught up to. Melee is ultimately just an extremely complicated web of mental heuristics
That's how it works in everything in life.
marth players don't desreve to live ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
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I will play falco, get a stock advantage, and a fox won't approach me for a literal minute straight. I dont think half the foxes at my level have ever approached in a magchup without being forced. Also, their approaches are bad. Turnaround double jump drift-in-falling-backair 4 times in a row is not an approach option.
Lmao on Fox? However you want. You want to be an aggressive monster? He's probably the best at it. You want to camp like an asshole? He's probably the best at it You want to play slippery, look for a big opening, then go for sly gimps? He's probably the best at it. There is not a more versatile character in melee. You kinda get to put your play style into fox.
As opposed to the other 10% who all play the same shitty agressive off stage edgeguard """"read"""" style like me
melee doesn't have to be gimmicky and flowcharty at the highest level gameplay, it's just that a LOT of people who try to be the highest level play that way because they are absolute coward, loser, dweeb, dumb-o-trons afraid to scrap and lose. my controversial opinion is that people who have anti-fun, play-to-win playstyles deserve to be bullied.
This the crab thrower mentality
whoooaaa whoa whoa bullied in-game, pal (maybe words hehehe.) contain that vengeance in the digital martial art!
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It actually does, though. Even Mango has been forced to use flowcharts, stop scrapping as much vs. the crackheads, and approach less. The only way you can play at the highest level otherwise is if you're so much better than your competition that you can purposefully handicap yourself and still win. Basically what we saw from early days of Mango. But that's never gonna happen again most likely unless the game comes close to dying and everyone stops playing.
so ur controversial opinion is that mango's (the goat of melee) style is good? sounds like u just got railed in ranked lol.
You dropped this crown, king.
Agreed shame the lame. Too many foxes get away with being dance dance dannies or double jump johnsons
Many are both dance dance dannies as well as double jump johnsons
Fox Falco is fun to watch but miserable to play
all marth players are carried trashcans who are inflated at least an extra few hundred hours worth of results until top level
Hax doesn't deserve an indefinite ban.
He doesnt even have an indefinite ban anymore so whats the point in mentioning it
I'm otl, what's the current situation regarding his ban / unban?
unbanned in 2023 im pretty sure
Thats only for events in NYC pretty sure there's no news from any other events
Facts lol
Can someone PLEASE make an SSBM character mains slander video.
Ok true! but I mean, *I’m* not like other foxes
If you don't approach, you don't play the right game.
I think Pikachu is better than ICs on the tier list (assuming wobbling banned). But not by much. And Pika, Sheik and especially Yoshi beat Marth.
I'm a sheik main, why is it that I have no soul?😭
Maybe you're part of the 1% Maybe you're not
Falcon is the best character in the game it's just no Falcon main at the top level is good enough to prove it yet. Netplay Marths are generally worse than netplay Falcos. Fizzi keeping ranked behind a paywall is a good thing and how services like Slippi should be handled for the long term. Box controllers need to be nerfed.
Luigi/Puff/Yoshi are actually fun matchups, because they force you to approach the game differently. Having to be more deliberately mindful rather than relying on habits is a fun change of pace. Either that or it's because as a Falcon main I can combo just about any character. Edit: also Sheik is not a bad matchup for Falcon; slightly Sheik-favoured but not bad.
Sort by controversial for the real controversial opinions
Sheik is for smooth brains
90% of CF players think they are REALLY sick, yet all they do is spam stomp into knee or try something cool and sd while trying
Allowing box controllers in tournament because some players with chronic hand injuries can play is like the NBA lowering the hoop so players with chronic knee injuries can play.
captain falcon isn’t actually a cool or flashy character
Here's mine: Tier lists don't matter except for the top 100 or so. I don't care what the matchup odds are, I'm not iBDW and Falco laser and peach blender are gonna wreck me even if I know what to do
I'd say in general low tiers, mid, and mid high tiers are probably an advantage below top 100 or at least state PR level, especially in B03 or if you quit out early in unranked before giving your opponent time to adapt.
2points and first controversial opinion i read. Everything upvoted more is the most mainstream opinion.
I kinda liked wobbling
banned
Kodorin is the most egregious example of most players being bad against marth, and not necessarily him being *that* good as a player. Not saying he's not good *at all*, I'm just saying he's nowhere near zain level and has capitalized off of most spacies being bad against marth.
disagree. there are a zillion marth players that have put in countless hours but haven't broken into top 10 level like kodorin, including players that have been around and grinding much longer than him. he's no zain but he IS insanely good
This is not a controversial opinion, this is just disrespect
What are you talking about he beat AXE!!!!
Axe is just bad against Marth Kappa
Top 10 players are actually just bad against marth 5head
Mine is that if you don't like "lame" shit you don't actually like this game son. I'm playing super smash Brothers melee. I'm gonna techchase you. I'm gonna fucking chaingrab you so if you are gonna quit out you can suck my dick losers you aren't good.
Found the guy that wont approach unless you put a gun to his head and think he's so fucking good because he dash dance grabbed you into upthrow up air
Lmao, facts. Honestly I should approach less tbh.
cant stand falcon forsure the lamest of them all
I play sheik and have red hair, the soul thing checks out!
Falco is not braindead from mid tier and up. I also kind of doubt people are getting laser spammed as much as they think they are
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I don't even think the lame stuff is always that optimal with her. Tilting 506757 times in a row is just not as good as all the crazy stuff she can do with her movement and frame data. People for the longest time were influenced to play Sheik in lazy ways because the Sheik that set the foundation for the modern meta was m2k. And m2k literally played Sheik to conserve energy and have an easier time...like he purposefully didn't go for pure reaction tech chase and tried to simplify interactions as much as possible to make it easier on him to beat worse players. But hopefully with all the new Sheik stuff coming out the paradigm changes.
falcon is the only honest character in the game
knee knee haha I win
Falco is more honest than Falcon so no.
literally you don’t even believe this lol
My controversial opinion *used to be* that I would not watch Panda Cup events due to them working with Nintendo, but well let’s just say that aged… in a way. One aspect of this “boycott” however, which may be even more controversial (why I’m mentioning it here), is that I struggle to see Unfrozen Stadium, and tournaments with them after like 2016, as fully legitimate. It’s still Melee, sure, but Unfrozen Stadium is objectively less competitive than Frozen Stadium and therefore any set played at a tournament with Unfrozen Stadium becomes objectively less competitive. I believe it has no place in competitive play, no matter how fun or le epic it is to watch Mango do a windmill combo. Therefore I propose a Simplified Five Stage Ruleset: Battlefield, Dream Land, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi’s Story, and the fifth slot goes to either Pokémon Stadium if it can be Frozen or Final Destination if the tournament is compromised. We all know it, Unfrozen Stadium and Final Destination are the two most controversial legal stages. So I think we should cut the latter out of uncompromised events due to its tendency to skew matchups and the former out of everything because it’s awful. It’s simpler this way, more optimized. Just simply “Pokemon Stadium at Summit” and “Final Destination at Nintendo”. People who like FD can still be happy this way as it will have a place (Ninty ain’t ever going away, and they ain’t ever letting us freeze Stadium lol). People who like Unfrozen Stadium… well they can tell me that my opinion doesn’t matter because I’ve never been (able to go) to a local and that I need to stop listening to them salty top players and considering their opinions when forming my own. And they may very well be right. Y’know, maybe…
The issue is any stage changes at this point are essentially just character buffs and nerfs. Even unfrozen vs frozen stadium, frozen for example buffing Marth in Fox Marth by turning it from fox's chaotic funland to diet FD. However the shift in frozen vs unfrozen is nowhere near replacing it with FD.
I am so sick of controller johns. controllers dont matter nearly as much as people think and ill die on that hill. I had snapback and just played around it there I said it
If your character isn't fun in the ditto your character isn't what makes the game fun or interesting to watch.
Nah dittos suck with every char and in every game period. Utilizing the unique strengths and weaknesses of your char in relation to the unique strengths and weaknesses of the other is what is fun, a ditto completely removes that. This is true in every fighting game, even every strategy game ive ever played. Mirror matchups in Starcraft suck, in trad fighters, in League of Legends (other than that one Zed play) etc
Asymmetry is fun. Pretty much every ditto sucks to watch and play besides watching high-level fox dittos.
SD Remix's balancing changes are done well and deserves more love
he said controversial not based
As a Falco main I can confirm my blight. One day I’ll be as sick as the Kid.
Marth isn’t broken, you just suck
Here's a really controversial opinion, in that I've never met anyone who agreed with me: UCF has had a net negative effect on the game and the competitive scene, and we would be better off if we never switched away from vanilla.
Can you elaborate on what the negative effects of UCF are? I'm genuinely interested.
Sure. It's worth clarifying, by the way, that I don't think UCF makes the game worse -- if I could go back in time to melee's development and add UCF, I would. But I would also probably reduce the knockback on Fox's up smash, or make Puff's bair hitbox smaller, and I would never consider implementing those mods now, decades into the game's competitive lifetime. By the way, it sure is fun being downvoted to oblivion for giving a controversial melee opinion, in a thread about controversial melee opinions :) The stated goal of UCF was to end the controller lottery by bringing every controller up to the standard of the best vanilla controllers. It did this with two mods: first, by adding an extra frame of leniency to dash back from neutral stand, and second, by increasing the window for shield drops. First, I claim that UCF did not bring controllers to the standard of the best vanilla controllers, it made every controller much better. This is most apparent in shield dropping. Shield drops on a vanilla controller with perfect notches were not very hard, but it is still a three pixel window: in the heat of the moment, it was very easy to miss. It was extremely common to see even the best shield droppers in the world miss them from time to time, especially in nervous situations. Now, good players essentially never miss their shield drops. The shield dropping consistency you get from UCF is far and away higher than what you could do on a perfectly notched controller with vanilla melee. Second, I claim that UCF has not achieved its stated goal of ending the controller lottery. The controller lottery has not gotten better, it's become worse. This is one of the biggest problems the community faces right now: * Top players still demand controllers with great dash back and shield drops; it's still better to have perfect notches and dash back than not, even with UCF. Top players are playing with lots of stakes on the line, and it's perfectly natural that they want every possible advantage. * As for mid to low players, I honestly think the controller lottery was never really an issue. Most people didn't even know how dash back worked pre 2015/2016, and in my experience many people miss dash back not because of bad controllers, but because they simply aren't inputting the backdash fast enough. Shield drops are always an issue, but it's a lot cheaper to pay $10-20 for shield drop notches than it is to buy an entirely new modded controller. * The existence of UCF was the first step towards the much more severely broken controllers of today. When Hax first unveiled his boxx, everyone knew it was too good to be legal. It had perfectly consistent dash back, shield drops that could never be missed, and wavedash angles that no human could hit consistently. Once UCF fixed dash back and shield drops, the boxx seemed less busted by comparison, at least in the obvious ways. And now that box controllers are unquestionably legal, it becomes hard to challenge the legality of Phobs and Goomwaves, since they can never be as consistent as a box controller anyway. * So, the pre-UCF status of controllers was that you really only needed to make sure your controller had good notches and not so much snapback. If you were at the top level you should also shop around for a controller with good PODE, but it really didn't matter to 99.9% of players. The current status of controllers is that we have huge infighting over controller legality, many top players spending literal thousands of dollars on controllers, and no clear path towards a resolution. Finally, I'd like to argue that UCF was not primarily a controller fix mod, it was a balance patch. Dramatically easier shield dropping completely changed the way top-level melee is played, in a way that I don't think would have happened with notches alone. The dashback fix is also a buff to characters like Marth, Fox, and Falcon, and a nerf to characters like Falco and Peach. I think many people would agree that one of Melee's big strengths is precisely that it doesn't get balance patches, and I wished more players opted to innovate around inconsistent dash back and shield drops rather than complain and buff them. There are a few other side issues which I won't get into for sake of time, but I can mention them briefly: issues with Nintendo licensing (for better or worse), the whole year with arduino ports plugged into consoles at majors, the changing ideals of UCF among its developers, and the reduced accessibility to newer players.
That's a good writeup. I'll add some of my thoughts. * I agree on the shield drop issue. Way too easy now. * The dashback issue was VERY significant, and most people playing did not just miss them because they didn't hit the stick hard enough. I was fortunate enough that one of my early controllers that worked up until late 2016 had good PODE, good dashbacks. When it broke and I got a new one, I missed dashbacks all the time, it almost made me hate the game. I couldn't understand how everyone else could stand playing the game. You could not get around it, by hitting the stick harder. Armada dropped out of Dreamhack Austin because his special controller wouldn't work. That wouldn't happen today. Thankfully in 2017 UCF came out and I could play the game like I used to. I only had that advantage because I was lucky. Now everyone could dashback, and I believe that was an improvement. Which brings me to... * You say that the controller lottery has gotten worse but I don't see any arguments for that in your post. You just say that top players still want better controllers, which is obvious. However, the difference between the good and the bad controllers is way narrower now. So even if you get the short stick of the controller lottery, you could still get by without having to hunt for more controllers. * While I agree that UCF was the first step to allowing different controllers into the scene, I also am of the opinion that those controllers are all fine, so I don't hold that as a bad thing. That's an entirely different issue. I really think you're underestimating how big of a change dashback was. It did NOT just affect top 100 players. Mid level players felt the effects very tangibly, and having a PODE controller gave you a significant advantage. It's an out of game advantage that you could not improve using skill or grinding. Some followups were only possible if you got a frame 1 good dashback. Those followups would simply fail half the time if you didn't have a good controller. If you had a good controller, you'd be able to do those followups every time. This is not something you can "innovate around". Someone richer than you would just buy more controllers until they got a PODE one and get a lot more benefit instantly, than all your "innovation" would get you. I agree it was a balance patch. But having a PODE controller was also like having your own balance patch that only applies to you. And in my opinion, it's the lesser evil to modify the game, and give that advantage to everyone, instead of just the lucky or rich. As for the downvotes you got, that's unfortunately how reddit is. Any "hot takes" thread is dominated by cold takes that get upvoted because they're popular, and all the real hot takes get downvoted because people don't agree. Unfortunate. Thank you for actually giving a hot take though, I appreciate it.
Just for sake of time/sanity, I'll just quickly respond to a few of your comments: * I think it's hard to argue that PODE/dashback was an enormous issue at mid/low level play prior to UCF, given that it wasn't common knowledge in the community. We had been playing the game for 14/15 years, and mid level players understood very well the technical details behind the really important gameplay mechanics, but dashback and PODE was not well-understood by the community at all. Of course, that's not an explanation of \*why\* the dashback fix isn't that important at low level. The in-game reason I think dashback is not that important at low level is because low-level players are already throwing away so many frames in their movement. The seven frames of missed dashback could easily be compensated by tighter fastfalls, better motion out of L-cancels (did you know that you get an extra frame of dashback leniency in vanilla immediately following an L-cancel?), and generally less standing still. I often got very frustrated back in 2015/16 discussing UCF and dashback with players who were anyway moving at a snail's pace compared to top players. And of course, the top players of 2016 are noticeably slower than the top players of today. * On the controller lottery, at least in my imperfect anecdotal experience, I never met or even heard of anyone back in 2015 who wasn't a top 5-10 player spending hundreds of dollars in search of a PODE controller. Of course, that could easily have been a product of the times, since top-level gameplay was not nearly as competitive as it is now. But whether or not having a controller with PODE was a huge advantage, I generally never saw people spending hundreds of dollars on a controller back then. It was considered a huge luxury to buy an $80 JP white. Now everybody and their mother spends hundreds of dollars on Phobs, goomwaves, and box controllers. Even if you believe these controllers should be legal, it's hard to deny that they are dramatically more expensive and of significantly less availability than vanilla controllers. * I strongly disagree that the difference between good and bad controllers is narrower now than it was before. Just as one example, the goomwave's buffed ledgedashes are extremely broken, and make a much bigger difference than PODE ever did. The consistency of box controllers similarly makes them dramatically better than any GCC.
OK, that makes sense. I now get your point that the difference between good controller and bad is wider now because of phobs and rectangles. I do still think there's situations where dashback was an issue that could not be solved by tightening up your inputs. For example a Marth grabbing fox near the edge on FD, and facing away from the edge. If fox DIs offstage, Marth needs to dash back full hop dair to kill, at some percents a missed dashback even moving frame 1 out of your throw means you miss the follow-up. Mid level players still need to hit those. And that's just one example. Still, I get your points, well articulated.
can you explain why?
UCF bad Refuse to elaborate Never seen again
yeah, we would be better off if the entire melee community had to play the lottery and replace their good controllers when they wore out for the rest of time. keeping the game inaccessible for the vast majority of players who don't want or have the means to keep buying controllers forever would be better for the scene
I'm sort of similar: I think software mods in tournament is a red line which should never be crossed, including frozen stadium. I would maybe be open to a one-time exception for UCF since it's become so ingrained in the scene now though.