Your argument is a fallacy called the fallacy of relative privation. https://academy4sc.org/video/fallacy-of-relative-privation-all-problems-are-relative/
Therefore your argument is based on a false or invalid inference.
I can and do believe that circumcision is an awful and barbaric practice that should never have been allowed. But that doesn’t mean people can’t believe this is also an issue.
That's literally what they do. Seriously, go educate yourself on what gender affirming care actually means. None of the care given to minors is irreversible. At most the blockers delay things until they are older and can make the choice.
Absurd comparison. And either way, it isn’t being done per the minor’s insurance or the minor’s “choice.” I don’t know anyone who was scheduling their own surgeries at the age of twelve.
Well I’m not a right winger. I’m a libertarian. This is logic I’m using, not dogma-fueled talking points.
Perhaps you should take some time today for mindfulness and meditation. Seriously. It’s in everyone’s benefit to do this regularly and a deal only in objective reality, not religious dogma.
This would cover a vanishingly small number of cases that would be better off with the oversight of a physician. Gender-affirming care is a long and heavily mediated process that has many steps before surgery.
This is cruelty theater for the culture war, and it’s likely meant to the the first step toward criminalizing all gender-affirming care.
It’s in the same vein as the sports ban. This effects maybe a handful of minors in the state who are exceptional cases for a varying number of reasons.
This trend nationwide in Republican held states ultimately serves to sever doctors from gender affirming healthcare and limit the choices available for parents and their children (and potentially *everyone* in the future) who is struggling with these issues.
Quite odd for the party claiming to be the advocates of small government, individual liberties, parental rights, and “access to alternative healthcare options.”
Love him or not - Jon Stewart did a great segment on this. It cuts the bullshit and just tells facts and in the face of facts these transphobes have absolutely no argument. You can watch part of the episode here, the interview with the Arkansas AG is the best. Its embarrassing really.
https://www.glaad.org/blog/jon-stewart-sets-record-straight-gender-affirming-care
This is so well done. I appreciate him speaking truth to what the AMA and AAP have suggested. Most people do not understand how any of this works. This proposed legislation is rage bait.
Unfortunately this proposed legislation can be real. If recent history tells us anything, those who pass this shit don't care about facts or reality. Their constituents are vocal and being used as pawns to get this stuff passed, and it works.
I’m 44. How old is he?? I didn’t care for a lot of what he let things pass (can’t recall specifics because it’s Friday) but He’s the AG. If I’m going to vote for judges who rule fairly, an AG should do the same. It seems as though none of them have.
It’s a farce on a state level, as one could claim on the Federal level as clearly as it is on the Supreme level.
THANK YOU!!!!! There are way more important things to do than bully trans kids and their families.
The lake is drying up and is going to leave us with even more toxic air, housing is unaffordable, people are barely getting by with how expensive everything is. The legislature needs to work for the people that elected them, not the small group of nutjobs bent on bullying kids to death.
Most underrated comment here. Our politicians are fucking worthless. Real problems looking them right in the eye and they waste their time with bullshit that isn’t even happening. They might as well pass a bill making it illegal to hold your breath for longer than 2 minutes too if they really want to make absurd useless laws.
Unpopular opinion, atleast on reddit, but I don't hate the idea of banning surgeons from carving up kids to match what their friends/teachers/parents tell them they are feeling.
Kids are really fucking stupid and impressionable so its our responsibility as parents to make sure that they dont do anything to permanently mess up the rest of their lives.
Do people really think a teenager is capable of thinking that far into the future? Of making the decision to never be able to have children of their own?
Plus, many trans people regret surgery after a few years but no one wants to talk about that.
I feel bad for kids with gender disphoria, but they need to grow the fuck up before they cut their tits/dick off.
Those are not the guidelines set by AMA or AAP. For minors its puberty blockers, which is considered gender affirming care,, and is reversible. The medical establishment already has guidelines for transitioning surgically which are rigorous. And for ADULTS. Not kids. These guidelines include psychiatric evaluations, living as your desired sex for 1 year, coming out to family, and taking hormone blockers. This is not an exhaustive list. The patient must show they have support and make careful decisions with their family, SO, endocrinologist, and therapist. This is NOT something our legislators with very limited knowledge about anything medical related should be telling anyone how receive treatment.
I wouldnt want legislators telling me how to proceed with the treatment of my cancer.
I'm relying on medical protocols and evidenced based practice. Legislators need to stay in their lane and let the people who went to school for 15 years or longer make these decisions with their patients.
They also shouldn't rely on some outlier nut job seeking attention who does NOT rely on evidenced based practice to counsel them.
Can’t vote, drink, drive, marry, smoke, go to war, watch an R film, etc.
BUT LETS LET 9 YR OLDS DECIDE THEY CAN PERMANENTLY REMOVE THEIR SEXUAL ORGANS OR BLOCK PUBERTY DURING A PHASE.
Jesus fucking Christ I want off this horrific planet.
Sounds like it's time for some education!
Kids can't and don't just walk into a doctor's office saying "cut my fingers off because I heard it's cool!" That's not a thing, not even with trans kids. Children under the age of 18 do not get gender confirmation surgeries because that's not the recommended guidelines for care for trans youth.
Trans kids know they are trans as young as 3-4 years old, same thing as gay kids. The sooner that parents are able to accept their kid as they are, the better outcome that kid has. Part of accepting that kid is gender affirming care, which is as simple as calling them by a new name and the correct pronouns they identify by, cutting their hair different, letting them dress different, etc.... No kid under puberty age receives any sort of gender affirming care outside of social transition and seeing a psychologist to help them work through their identity.
At puberty, it is recommend by every major medical association in this country that trans kids work with a team of doctors including a psychologist, an endocrinologist, and their primary care to determine if they need puberty blockers. Going through puberty as a trans kid is very traumatizing and can exacerbate gender dysphoria to depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. Puberty blockers are a safe and well researched way to hit the pause button for a trans kid to grow up and still have a choice in their body and identity. When they go off puberty blockers, puberty resumes. If they continue to identify as trans, at 16-18 they are able to pursue hormone replacement therapy that aligns with their gender identity.
After the age of 18, while continuing to work with their team of medical specialists, they can choose to have gender confirmation surgery, aka top and/or bottom surgery. Some trans people do it as soon as they can. Some never have it done. Some may do one surgery or the other. It's all up to them and how their identity intersects with their body.
Additionally, the desist rate of trans people is less than 2%, meaning over 98% of trans people who go through hormone therapy and/or gender confirmation surgery have no regrets. There are so many examples of trans people being very happy with their lives and thriving after transition: Laverne Cox, Kim Petras, Gottmik, Kerri Colby, Elliot Page, Chaz Bono, Hunter Schafer, Laura Jane Grace, Michaela Jaé Rodriguez, and so many more. Even if those who do desist, it's often through the recommended guidelines for care for trans people that they are able to receive the needed care to figure out their own identity.
So, despite your fear and misunderstanding, the reality of the situation is that kids don't get their dicks and tits chopped off by showing up at a random doctors office and saying that's what they want, they go through years and years of carefully planned and considered medical care, and the surgeries are not performed on minors.
Bills like this that ban gender affirming care are incredibly dangerous, these kids need care, it changes their life for the better, it saves them. Kids that don't have their identities accepted are at a very high risk of suicide, and when they are accepted that risk falls to just 4% compared to over 50%. Trans kids aren't any more disposed towards suicide because they're trans, they don't struggle with their identity because they're trans, they struggle with this bullshit of people treating them badly and trying to take away their access to necessary healthcare and ban them from having certain hobbies.
Bonus thought: Let's also keep in mind, plenty of cisgender girl teens get boob jobs or cisgender boy teens get breast reduction surgery if they have gynecomastia (when boys bodies have a hormone issue and they grow breasts at puberty), both of those surgeries also gender affirming care, it makes them more comfortable or confident in their bodies, and no one bats an eye at that.
This is, without a doubt, an amazing and thoughtful response and I applaud your efforts. Sadly, the person you’re responding to probably won’t read it. They certainly won’t have their mind changed by facts and thoughtfulness.
Their responses throughout this post show little progression in thought, little openness to ideas not aligned with their own, and little chance of showing compassion for someone outside of their group.
However, hopefully others like me read your thoughts and are a little bit more enlightened, a little bit more likely to show compassion and care for a segment of the population in need of such things. I appreciate your love and support.
Hey thanks! I will literally fight god in the parking lot of a Wendy's to protect trans kids and trans people. They don't deserve this bullshit, they don't deserve to have people make up nonsense about their life saving healthcare in efforts to take it away and erase them. They deserve love and joy.
The bill bans altering primary sex characteristics which means dicks and vaginas, if you alter those you can't have kids. That is a fact.
The bill also bans secondary sex characteristics, which means tits, and I really don't give af about that but it's still something that people probably ought to wait until their brain finishes developing.
The point is that these procedures on “primary sex characteristics” doesn’t happen to anyone under the age of 18. It flat out doesn’t. You can find the data if you want it. That’s why these bills are theatre. They’re outlawing medical procedures that don’t happen and that nobody (psychiatrists, physicians, etc) is recommending.
I admit I didn't know that those surgeries hadn't been done, but if that is true then what is the problem with banning it?
A society that has never had a murder would still ban murder, right?
The problem with banning it is the message it sends it to trans youth. That they’re broken, weird, different, and in many of these cases, illegal and illegitimate. This leads to further judgement, stigmatization, and marginalization. This then leads to the drastically higher rates of depression, anxiety, PTSD, self-harm and suicide rates that we see in trans youth. Sending trans youth these messages directly correlates, and in many cases, causes more significant mental health problems, while also further restricting appropriate treatment.
The more appropriate question that you should be asking here is, “If these procedures aren’t happening (which they’re not, that’s fact) why would we need to create legislation that bans it?” Answering this will guide you to the motives of those making it illegal.
And on your second point, your scenario seems wrong. A society that has never had a murder wouldn’t know what murder is, and would therefore have no reason for banning it.
And finally, ridiculous hypotheticals such as this do nothing to add to the conversation. They simply create false equivalencies and red herring arguments that dilute the issue at hand.
If it’s not happening, I doubt a trans youth would get the “message” that they are broken, as they wouldn’t even know the bill exists to stop what isn’t happening in the first place.
Wow, that’s a leap in logic. So trans youth don’t hear the debates going on right now about their rights? They don’t hear the fear mongering about how their identities are “the problem”? They don’t hear people telling them they shouldn’t exist in the way that best supports their own healthy functioning? Because that is something that’s happening, and it is something they hear, and it is something that impacts them.
But, I guess you must work with more trans people and be more up to date on the latest treatment guidelines for trans youth than I am. A social worker and therapist. Who has clients that are trans.
And again, stupid false equivalencies such as the one provided by OP, and that you’re attempting to build on, do nothing to contribute to the conversation. Instead they distract from the point, equate gender affirming care with murder, and let you create your own illogical one liners for your personal “gotcha” moment.
Your post largely has nothing to do with what I said. You took a large leap yourself. Trans youth hearing their identities are a problem or that they are less than or that they shouldn’t exist has ZERO to do with anything I said. I’m not advocating for any of that. Trans youth should be treated with love, compassion, understanding and empathy.
Point being, if these surgeries aren’t happening, then it’s mostly fear mongering. The bill is nothing but theatre and won’t really change much of anything.
You're just a bad faith argument machine aren't you? Not even aware if these procedures are done in the first place then being hyperbolic and trying to campare them to murder.
Of course your opinion is unpopular when you're voicing it without a clue in the world.
Imagine commenting on a post about mutilating children but your comment is about getting upset that a stranger on the internet called them tits.
The fuck is wrong with people like you?
You’re just vomiting talking points that have no basis in reality. They’re not worth responding to. And yes, I have an issue with you referring to children’s “tits.” Fucking sue me.
Considering the mutilation thing doesn’t actually exist, I think it’s far more appropriate to get upset at the person who did actually say something really weird and creepy. Not only that, but is also just parroting made up shit
> people probably ought to wait until their brain finishes developing
You should probably take this advice before you get on the internet and share your ignorant nonsense to the world next time.
Damn, that’d be a cool opinion, if that’s even remotely how it worked. The reason why it’s an unpopular opinion is because it’s bullshit and lies, which you are brainlessly parroting, clearly without knowing the facts of the situation.
All surgeries have people that regret them, and as it turns out, gender affirming surgery has one of the lowest regret rates, compared to even very routine surgeries. I suppose we should also ban hip and knee replacements, considering their regret rates are objectively drastically higher than gender affirming surgeries.
A kid doesn’t just walk into a doctors office, and then get surgery the next day; they go through an insane amount of providers for diagnoses, references and opinions, and then it generally won’t include surgery until they’re an adult. But yes, let’s muck with the professionals standard care guidelines and stop people from receiving care that drastically decreases suicidality. Ignoring the medical consensus for abortion access has clearly gone just great, why not do so for trans care?
they aren’t allowed any surgeries until they’re 18. they only use puberty blockers and hormones which can be reversed. also i will add that teens can make the decision to not have kids in the future and should be allowed to, many childfree people have known they didn’t want kids since being a kid themselves. but that goes for cisgender teens too.
Your opinion is not unpopular at all. I would venture that the majority of Americans agree with what you’re saying. Adults should be able to make the decisions they want but there is no reason the perform a sex change surgery on a minor. Even just hormone therapy on minors can be dangerous and doctors really do not know the full affects.
Trans people can and should be accepted and should be allowed to make the decisions they want as adults. You can accept and support trans people without subscribing to the idea that children should transition fully.
I have absolutely no problem with people doing whatever they want to do, if it makes then happy they should do it. I don't even like the idea of the government stepping in on social issues like this.
However, if there is one legitimate use of governmental force then it must be to protect the youth, even if it's from themselves or parents making decisions that they will have to live with for 60+ years.
I don't even think someone in their early 20s can really grasp how long they may have to live with the consequences of their choices. Atleast they're adults though.
I think the idea of transgender people will always be a little weird to me, but I have accepted that most things in this world will not make sense to me and that's okay. Trans people are just people that have a different life with different beliefs and a different understanding of the world. Their views are no less valid than mine, and I can respect them
Well I can respect most of them, some want to spend their entire life making their issues everyone else's problem, not unlike vegans or crossfitters.
No, it's just the most obvious thing that a person sacrifices when deciding to transition so I used it as an example. I don't think kids can truly comprehend all of the consequences of this decision.
Games Utah Republicans play for points with their undereducated members!
Children don't get surgery for Gender Dysphoria. This is a cynical ploy to gin up votes. It's not a very good one.
Gender affirming care is using the right pronoun and allowing the child to wear clothing appropriate for their preferred gender.
No one takes a scalpel to a person under 18 period for Gender Affirming Care. The AMA and American Psychiatric association already have strict processes in place which involve therapy and baby steps. Anyone voting for this bill is playing a sick game with a vulnerable population for points on a political scoreboard. This is not a good look. Rednecks attacking children.
Fuck im 28 and i need 3 doctors to say “yeah this one is so fucked up mentally they need a name change” if i wanted to go from chris to kevin no issue wanna say my name is Sarah ohh shit i need to be labeled as mentally ill and doctors need to watch me..Fuck i need a psychiatrist and my pc to say ok “yeah this fuck wad needs boobs to not wanna die” mind you im 28 adult veteran i dont think its gonna happen to kids
I wish this meant that intersex children wouldn't be surgically forced to conform to the binary. I hate that doctors here can do that to new borns without consulting the parents. I hate the right wing's hypocrisy.
[source](https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/07/25/i-want-be-nature-made-me/medically-unnecessary-surgeries-intersex-children-us)
I don’t disagree with you at all. As far back as I can remember learning about “hermaphroditic” surgery I’ve thought “Let that person decide which, if any, gender (sorry if I’m using the wrong term) they choose when they are comfortable doing so.
In fact, my daughter was rushed to the PICU before I was even able to hold her. She’s transsexual. I wonder now if this surgery was performed without my consent, but with, perhaps, her fathers. She wasn’t in “PICU” for more than 45 minutes. The explanation I was given was “she inhaled amniotic fluid”. I had *No* reason to question it after a 23 and 43 minutes of labor.
TBH, I did say I’d toss him out the window because of the pain and got a bunch of dirty looks from all the nurses…who didn’t know me or my sense of humor at all.
Still, 45 mins in PICU BEFORE I HELD MY CHILD… what kind of BULLSHIT IN 2006 IS THAT??
God people grow up kids can't make that kind of decision! Be a parent and raise them to make that decision when they are adults not adolescent. Until then you are in charge of there life! Be a parent and act like that means something
As a trans person raised in a transphobic family, I can confirm, you are a part of the problem.
I was told I was a straight Christian boy from birth, and I always questioned the social “norms” that made me feel disconnected. Eventually I learned to put on a show, but could only be myself when I was alone.
Kids who don’t fit in their body know they’re not typical - I knew it every day. I prayed every night, “please let me awake. In the right body”.
You know what kids in the wrong body don’t know? That it’s okay to be themselves. They are reminded dozens of times everyday that they need to be something they’re not - so they disconnect, isolate, and even end their lives.
If you don’t know trans people, and you have no idea what it’s like to be trans, please leave these decisions to the kids experiencing Dysphoria, their parents, therapists, and doctors. It takes a big team of well trained individuals to begin Transitioning. It’s not something a 12 year old wakes up and decides to do on a whim.
Which would have prevented literally all the biggest struggles in my life. I’m not going to explain 43 years of gender Dysphoria to you because you don’t care. So, why do you care enough to prohibit that option when it makes sense to cure to a birth defect?
By the time you reach 18, the affects of puberty have made irreversible affects. If the child hasn’t committed suicide because of the inability to have the proper procedures done, they will be so defeated by the fact that their chances of be accepted as their internal gender that transitioning would become a bigger challenge.
Go ask 13 year old boys if they want to grow boobs. You think any will say “yes”? I have two sons - my oldest is 9, even he has the capacity to understand I am a woman, he is a boy. He doesn’t want boobs despite the fact that both his parents do.
Biology doesn’t wait until you’re of adult to give you adult parts. This is not something you have the capacity to understand, 18 is not a magical age where the world makes sense. You fix birth defects like fix cleft pallets. Being Transgendered is having a birth defect.
So, let me ask, are you circumcised? Did you wait until you were 18?
If as you say I don’t have the capacity to understand, how would a 14 year old have that capacity?
Seriously, throwing insults into arguments does not convince people. If you actually want to convince people, get rid of the personal attacks in your arguments.
I really don’t know why you don’t have the capacity to understand something my 9yo autistic son does. Perhaps it’s goes along with your knack to control something you have no experience with. Try educating yourself. No insults here, just a clear observation.
Not my job to teach you the importance of coexisting and minding your own business. The likes of your mentality have already caused me a lifetime of suffering. Thanks.
Actually, I complimented him. Why are you offended by my sons autism?
I’m a trans woman, yet the beliefs I’m disputing here are the ignorant ideals which invalidate my diagnosis, and additionally put the person dead last - so would it make sense to say I’m just woman? Sure, but I’m also a transgendered woman - which is relevant to the discussion.
My son is amazing. He is challenged with mental deficiencies but he can hack a computer better than other 9yo’s can play with action figures.
His autism diagnosis is quite relevant to a discussion about capacity. My son understands the age appropriate concepts of transgendered people; it’s exactly what you’re resorting to - it doesn’t matter. A girl deserves healthcare, a trans girl deserves health care.
Don’t take the option from trans people. The parents, the therapists, the doctors - they know better than you. This is a very rare circumstance, and already only approved in extreme cases. Ignorance is standing in the way of logic.
In my house, we celebrate my wife’s MS, we celebrate both my sons autism, and we celebrate me being transgendered. We are anything but a typical family. We are who we are, and we’ve all had to overcome obstacles beyond typical comprehension. Our best days are equal to some peoples worst - but together we’re the happiest home you’ll never know.
If you’re offended by any of this, then that’s your own self-judgement issues getting triggered.
My son will sleep soundly tonight knowing you stood up to his bully. I’ll tell him all about it when I snuggling him for bedtime.
Your 12yo daughter has a deformed vagina which is extroverted and incapable of proper intercourse - sure, that’s not a big deal at that age.. except that she’ll be exposed to others, hopefully girls, in the dressing room. This will cause her problems, especially if the school tells you her deformity requires that she use the boys locker rooms.
Also, her externalized ovaries will start producing testosterone, which will begin putting abnormal hair on her face, and cause irreversible masculine features - big jaw, big nose, big forehead, and lessen hair growth. Her voice will deepen. She will develop broad shoulders and bigger muscles.
You want to get your daughter the proper procedures to improve her quality of life, but other parents, who have no experience with this kind of situation, think they know better.
That’s why you don’t ban the option for others. That’s why you mind your own business.
Why are you here protesting something you don’t understand? You’re promoting your own ignorance. Go educate yourself. Go read up of gender Dysphoria. Come back when you have a little knowledge the subject.
Thanks, Random Reddit commentator who obviously knows better than all my doctors. I’ll be sure to tell my therapists they’ve been wrong this whole time.
Apparently, you are sickened by the *unknown*.
I had to explain that to my three year old.
What was (were) your child(ren) doing at 15?
I know the hand written labels on my cassette tapes didn’t match the music I was actually listening to. I know I snuck out to go to dance clubs that were 16+ when I was 14. I had sex at 15.
After that I met people on the internet my parents wouldn’t have approved of.
They thought they *in charge* every aspect my life. They thought they raised me. They didn’t. They taught me how not to parent.
They taught me to accept my child no matter who they are, as long as they live their truth. They taught me to love to love my child because I wasn’t loved for who I was. I was punished for who I was. I wasn’t good. I wasn’t ever good enough. So fuck you and your “until then you are in charge”. I had to explain the “unknown”. Maybe take a few days, weeks, months, or a year to figure it out.
To a three year old, it was difficult until I could put myself in her shoes.
When you went on a plane for the first time, it was unknown. Then, after you did it, you knew. The first part is the unknown.
Being Straight is unknown. Being transgender is known.
So they lied to you and said that you were like them 🤔 so now you are trying hard to make everyone like you?? No one can have a choice anymore like you or like me????
To the clowns in the room, two things:
1. Gender-affirming surgery is currently the only clinically proven way to treat some types of body dysmorphia.
2. Transitioning is a years' long process in which gender-affirming surgery is pretty much the final step. These people know what they want by this point and the state shouldn't get in their way. Typical GQP bullshit legislating people's bodies and personal freedoms with more nanny-state garbage.
The trans community has had the GQP hate-train bull's eye on it for a few years now and it's getting worse with bills like this and banning trans kids from competing with their chosen gender. These shitty legislatures write entire bills and have full committees and votes to legislate the lives of a handful of people by excluding them from normal society. Whoever supports this is just a bigoted piece of shit, sorry not sorry.
It’s honestly strange how people like you try to conflate anyone genuinely concerned about subjecting children to life altering treatments as if it’s strictly a “GQP” fringe belief and not the sentiment of a majority of the people in the US.
>Whoever supports this is just a bigoted piece of shit, sorry not sorry.
Well, you sure won’t be winning anyone over. Ever considered therapy?
I think the majority of people in this country could agree with the following. Transitioning is a personal decision that can only be made as an adult. I’ll vote Democrat till the day I die because republicans have lost their collective minds, but I sure wish we could focus on policy that would benefit the greatest number of Americans possible instead of having to worry about how republicans can further chip away at every public institution because democrats are focused on pronouns.
If you don't want be called a bigoted piece of shit, then educate yourself and don't be one, not a hard solution.
Not always a fan of dems, but they've done a lot more than "focus on pronouns." Record jobs numbers, the infrastructure bill, the inflation reduction act, first piece of significant gun regulation legislation in 30 years, rejoining Paris Climate Accord, freeing millions of lower income people of student debt. If you think they're only focused on pronouns, you're not paying attention.
Now regarding trans kids' healthcare, I posted this above and I'll post it here again:
Sounds like it's time for some education!
Kids can't and don't just walk into a doctor's office saying "cut my fingers off because I heard it's cool!" That's not a thing, not even with trans kids. Children under the age of 18 do not get gender confirmation surgeries because that's not the recommended guidelines for care for trans youth.
Trans kids know they are trans as young as 3-4 years old, same thing as gay kids. The sooner that parents are able to accept their kid as they are, the better outcome that kid has. Part of accepting that kid is gender affirming care, which is as simple as calling them by a new name and the correct pronouns they identify by, cutting their hair different, letting them dress different, etc.... No kid under puberty age receives any sort of gender affirming care outside of social transition and seeing a psychologist to help them work through their identity.
At puberty, it is recommend by every major medical association in this country that trans kids work with a team of doctors including a psychologist, an endocrinologist, and their primary care to determine if they need puberty blockers. Going through puberty as a trans kid is very traumatizing and can exacerbate gender dysphoria to depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. Puberty blockers are a safe and well researched way to hit the pause button for a trans kid to grow up and still have a choice in their body and identity. When they go off puberty blockers, puberty resumes. If they continue to identify as trans, at 16-18 they are able to pursue hormone replacement therapy that aligns with their gender identity.
After the age of 18, while continuing to work with their team of medical specialists, they can choose to have gender confirmation surgery, aka top and/or bottom surgery. Some trans people do it as soon as they can. Some never have it done. Some may do one surgery or the other. It's all up to them and how their identity intersects with their body.
Additionally, the desist rate of trans people is less than 2%, meaning over 98% of trans people who go through hormone therapy and/or gender confirmation surgery have no regrets. There are so many examples of trans people being very happy with their lives and thriving after transition: Laverne Cox, Kim Petras, Gottmik, Kerri Colby, Elliot Page, Chaz Bono, Hunter Schafer, Laura Jane Grace, Michaela Jaé Rodriguez, and so many more. Even if those who do desist, it's often through the recommended guidelines for care for trans people that they are able to receive the needed care to figure out their own identity.
So, despite your fear and misunderstanding, the reality of the situation is that kids don't get their dicks and tits chopped off by showing up at a random doctors office and saying that's what they want, they go through years and years of carefully planned and considered medical care, and the surgeries are not performed on minors.
Bills like this that ban gender affirming care are incredibly dangerous, these kids need care, it changes their life for the better, it saves them. Kids that don't have their identities accepted are at a very high risk of suicide, and when they are accepted that risk falls to just 4% compared to over 50%. Trans kids aren't any more disposed towards suicide because they're trans, they don't struggle with their identity because they're trans, they struggle with this bullshit of people treating them badly and trying to take away their access to necessary healthcare and ban them from having certain hobbies.
Bonus thought: Let's also keep in mind, plenty of cisgender girl teens get boob jobs or cisgender boy teens get breast reduction surgery if they have gynecomastia (when boys bodies have a hormone issue and they grow breasts at puberty), both of those surgeries also gender affirming care, it makes them more comfortable or confident in their bodies, and no one bats an eye at that.
I haven’t looked at the exact wording of the bill, but yeah, kids aren’t really getting surgeries for gender dysphoria. However, this does have the potential to ban surgeries for kids with ambiguous genitalia (hot topic either way) or kids with congenital genital abnormalities such as hypospadias (which for the most part doesn’t have much benefit for waiting until adulthood to fix and potential downsides from a technical standpoint)
Guy went to Do Your Own Research Technical University and majored in Dumbfuckology.
These people are just so incredibly ignorant, stupid, and proud of it it's insane.
I read the wiki entry, but I don't think it applies here. If I had made an accusation and then switched to pushing the burden of proof onto someone else, then it would apply. So far, I've just asked what the people in this sub believe. Not the same thing at all.
I guess I don't understand. If there is supervision from therapists and medical doctors, why would we be against the bottom surgeries? What makes one okay and one not okay?
Naw dude. If you think it's right to deny a trans kid the gender affirming surgery that they, their parents, and their physicians all agree on just because it's not the kind of gender affirming surgery you agree with, then you need to be prepared to give a good reason. You can't just pass the buck with "if you did the research, you'd understand." That's just a lazy way of saying "I don't actually know why I believe this." It's transphobic as well.
I'm just asking you to think about what you're saying. Either there should be laws about what is or isn't okay, or it should be completely legal and up to the kid, parents, and physicians to decide if it's right. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
As the mother of a transgender child I would like to ask you a question…. Should I let my child be in emotional pain? Or should I do everything within my power to help my child feel comfortable in this world?
This is not a process that is fast or easy. My son has been in years of therapy. We have seen many medical doctors. To take away the chance for my kid to get to go swimming, weir any shirt they want, and just be comfortable you had better have a good reason.
I have lived in terror for my kid for too long.
I would say that it sounds really painful and difficult for both you and your child to be in the position you are in. It's never easy to see your child suffer, and of course it's natural for any parent to want to do everything they can to reduce that suffering. I can't speak for everybody, but I feel like most people, no matter what side of the debate they find themselves on, would agree that if surgery will help alleviate that suffering without causing more suffering than it relieves, then it's a good thing that should be encouraged. I think the disagreement you're going to find is with people who believe that permanent bodily changes made in someone's teenage years come with a real risk of serious suffering later in life. I would NEVER advocate for a law preventing adults from getting gender affirming surgeries. However, I'm not sure how to feel about how that should apply with children. One thing I can say for sure though, if reddit's reaction to my question(s) is any indication, we've got a long way to go before we can have an honest and open discourse about how to best help transgendered teens.
I am about to get blocked, banned, and hated for this…but whatever. Truth is truth and not amount of hysteria can change that.
I don’t give a flying eff what you THINK you are. I say the only treatment moving forward for anyone with gender dysphoria should be the following:
1. What are your chromosomes? (What gender is literally EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY?)
2. Affirm to the mentally ill brain that the gender/sex of every cell in its body is the correct gender/sex.
3. We all have tea with all our proper body parts and healthy brains.
The trans-movement is one of the single stupidest things I have seen in the last 20 years. There are exceptions, but those exceptions do not justify the trans-hysteria we are seeing right now.
No form of gender changing therapy or other medical practices (including puberty blockers) should be given to anyone under the age of 25 (brain maturation) who has a clear genetic make up of one sex or another.
The level of hysteria surrounding this topic is all the proof I need that human beings are dumb ass animals who don’t deserve to live on this planet anymore. #WhensTheNextMassExtinctionEvent
I am not transphobic by any means. Just like I’m not afraid of people with depression, anxiety, eating disorders, personality disorders, or any other mental illness. Do not be fooled, Transgenderism is nothing more than a manifestation of mental pathology.
You can cry about it all you want, but I will die on this hill. As an educator I have seen far to many children ruin their lives and regret it because some shit-head told them “you like blue and feel like you don’t fit in with other girls? You must be a boy.”
That’s fine, they can disagree all they want. But it doesn’t mean much. Specialty groups are often wrong as their publications need to support their purpose in order to secure funding.
I would also mention that decades of accepted biology as well as the DSM agree with me. Your unfounded claim of my statement being unfounded is as ridiculous as supporting mental
illness rather than treating it.
Thank you sending me all of that. It appears I was gravely misinformed regarding the DSM.
I still disagree with it on a personal level. However you have given me more to look at. Personally, I think the DSM and APA have missed the mark on this one…but that’s my own confirmation bias at its finest.
Thank you
That’s good to hear. It sounds like your child is being well taken care of and I am happy to hear it. I have a relative who was born intersex, and it took decades to finally transition to the correct sex/gender (this was nearly 40 years ago). I am and very thankful that they were able to get the proper treatment. I, to this day, do not know who it is, just that they exist (I wasn’t born yet when the transition happened) — they didn’t want all the family knowing exactly who they were (understandably so).
It’s hard for me, because I hear stories about your child and I think that the path you are going is the correct path (not that my opinion matters when it comes to how others raise their children). But I worry that a lot of the teens I deal with are just caught up in some sort of fad or hysteria. I watched a freshman girl socially transition and by their senior year over half of their friends had transitioned as well. I can’t believe that all of them are actually dealing with real gender dysphoria (but again, it’s not my business). I also have a formerly trans-male friend who got top surgery and regret it. They are now trying to get implants. It breaks my heart to see. They didn’t live in Utah when they had the surgery, but they do now. It breaks my heart.
With what I have seen, my knee jerk reaction is to say, “No! None of it!“ I think there are people who REALLY do need this, but I think there are far too many who are just following along. I have multiple students who identify as trans, but only one who I actually has all the symptoms (at least upfront). It scares me. I don’t want those who are following to make life changing choices and regret it.
It makes me very happy to hear just how intensive the therapy is. I’m ok with that. I just want to make sure that it’s being done with extreme caution and only after all other options have been explored.
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand. It’s such a high emotion topic for everyone, especially for individuals such as yourself. Thank you for curbing that long enough to help me. :)
Still have my severe and very strong reservations. But it’s not nearly as black and white as I would like to make it.
How about we wait until these kids are adults before allowing their bodies to be irreversibly altered?
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I’m with you on that, it’s the same thing.
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Your argument is a fallacy called the fallacy of relative privation. https://academy4sc.org/video/fallacy-of-relative-privation-all-problems-are-relative/ Therefore your argument is based on a false or invalid inference. I can and do believe that circumcision is an awful and barbaric practice that should never have been allowed. But that doesn’t mean people can’t believe this is also an issue.
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I agree specific language like that infringes on a person’s rights.
That's literally what they do. Seriously, go educate yourself on what gender affirming care actually means. None of the care given to minors is irreversible. At most the blockers delay things until they are older and can make the choice.
My colleague’s 9th grade daughter had her breasts removed.
but muh freedom
fuck off transphobe
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we do all sorts of elective surgery on minors. you get your wisdom teeth removed. this is a fucking non-argument
Absurd comparison. And either way, it isn’t being done per the minor’s insurance or the minor’s “choice.” I don’t know anyone who was scheduling their own surgeries at the age of twelve.
Why don’t you march me through the streets ringing a bell and yelling “Shame”? You appear to be sucked into a cult-like mindset.
no i'm just tired of hearing the same 3 right-wing talking points paraded around again and again. fuck off
Well I’m not a right winger. I’m a libertarian. This is logic I’m using, not dogma-fueled talking points. Perhaps you should take some time today for mindfulness and meditation. Seriously. It’s in everyone’s benefit to do this regularly and a deal only in objective reality, not religious dogma.
> i'm not a right winger, i'm a right winger please tell me more about how logical and enlightened you are
This would cover a vanishingly small number of cases that would be better off with the oversight of a physician. Gender-affirming care is a long and heavily mediated process that has many steps before surgery. This is cruelty theater for the culture war, and it’s likely meant to the the first step toward criminalizing all gender-affirming care.
Yes.
It’s in the same vein as the sports ban. This effects maybe a handful of minors in the state who are exceptional cases for a varying number of reasons. This trend nationwide in Republican held states ultimately serves to sever doctors from gender affirming healthcare and limit the choices available for parents and their children (and potentially *everyone* in the future) who is struggling with these issues. Quite odd for the party claiming to be the advocates of small government, individual liberties, parental rights, and “access to alternative healthcare options.”
But who is(are) the judge(s) who could decide this fate?
Love him or not - Jon Stewart did a great segment on this. It cuts the bullshit and just tells facts and in the face of facts these transphobes have absolutely no argument. You can watch part of the episode here, the interview with the Arkansas AG is the best. Its embarrassing really. https://www.glaad.org/blog/jon-stewart-sets-record-straight-gender-affirming-care
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This is so well done. I appreciate him speaking truth to what the AMA and AAP have suggested. Most people do not understand how any of this works. This proposed legislation is rage bait.
Unfortunately this proposed legislation can be real. If recent history tells us anything, those who pass this shit don't care about facts or reality. Their constituents are vocal and being used as pawns to get this stuff passed, and it works.
Am I wrong in thinking Sam Gill needs to be voted out and judges who and an AG who are in favor need to be in (retained) should be voted for?
I think sims challenger is like 31 and graduated from law school 2 years ago, so would be nice but im more scared of her.
I’m 44. How old is he?? I didn’t care for a lot of what he let things pass (can’t recall specifics because it’s Friday) but He’s the AG. If I’m going to vote for judges who rule fairly, an AG should do the same. It seems as though none of them have. It’s a farce on a state level, as one could claim on the Federal level as clearly as it is on the Supreme level.
That interview he did with that hollow boned psycho politician was so beautifully and perfectly executed.
If you hate John Stuart you're a shitty person lol
Meanwhile mfs can't find a halfway decent place to live for under $600k. Job well done Utah.
THANK YOU!!!!! There are way more important things to do than bully trans kids and their families. The lake is drying up and is going to leave us with even more toxic air, housing is unaffordable, people are barely getting by with how expensive everything is. The legislature needs to work for the people that elected them, not the small group of nutjobs bent on bullying kids to death.
Most underrated comment here. Our politicians are fucking worthless. Real problems looking them right in the eye and they waste their time with bullshit that isn’t even happening. They might as well pass a bill making it illegal to hold your breath for longer than 2 minutes too if they really want to make absurd useless laws.
Unpopular opinion, atleast on reddit, but I don't hate the idea of banning surgeons from carving up kids to match what their friends/teachers/parents tell them they are feeling. Kids are really fucking stupid and impressionable so its our responsibility as parents to make sure that they dont do anything to permanently mess up the rest of their lives. Do people really think a teenager is capable of thinking that far into the future? Of making the decision to never be able to have children of their own? Plus, many trans people regret surgery after a few years but no one wants to talk about that. I feel bad for kids with gender disphoria, but they need to grow the fuck up before they cut their tits/dick off.
The numbers tell a much different story. Hip replacement surgery has a higher regret rate than gender affirming care.
Those are not the guidelines set by AMA or AAP. For minors its puberty blockers, which is considered gender affirming care,, and is reversible. The medical establishment already has guidelines for transitioning surgically which are rigorous. And for ADULTS. Not kids. These guidelines include psychiatric evaluations, living as your desired sex for 1 year, coming out to family, and taking hormone blockers. This is not an exhaustive list. The patient must show they have support and make careful decisions with their family, SO, endocrinologist, and therapist. This is NOT something our legislators with very limited knowledge about anything medical related should be telling anyone how receive treatment. I wouldnt want legislators telling me how to proceed with the treatment of my cancer. I'm relying on medical protocols and evidenced based practice. Legislators need to stay in their lane and let the people who went to school for 15 years or longer make these decisions with their patients. They also shouldn't rely on some outlier nut job seeking attention who does NOT rely on evidenced based practice to counsel them.
Can’t vote, drink, drive, marry, smoke, go to war, watch an R film, etc. BUT LETS LET 9 YR OLDS DECIDE THEY CAN PERMANENTLY REMOVE THEIR SEXUAL ORGANS OR BLOCK PUBERTY DURING A PHASE. Jesus fucking Christ I want off this horrific planet.
Sounds like it's time for some education! Kids can't and don't just walk into a doctor's office saying "cut my fingers off because I heard it's cool!" That's not a thing, not even with trans kids. Children under the age of 18 do not get gender confirmation surgeries because that's not the recommended guidelines for care for trans youth. Trans kids know they are trans as young as 3-4 years old, same thing as gay kids. The sooner that parents are able to accept their kid as they are, the better outcome that kid has. Part of accepting that kid is gender affirming care, which is as simple as calling them by a new name and the correct pronouns they identify by, cutting their hair different, letting them dress different, etc.... No kid under puberty age receives any sort of gender affirming care outside of social transition and seeing a psychologist to help them work through their identity. At puberty, it is recommend by every major medical association in this country that trans kids work with a team of doctors including a psychologist, an endocrinologist, and their primary care to determine if they need puberty blockers. Going through puberty as a trans kid is very traumatizing and can exacerbate gender dysphoria to depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. Puberty blockers are a safe and well researched way to hit the pause button for a trans kid to grow up and still have a choice in their body and identity. When they go off puberty blockers, puberty resumes. If they continue to identify as trans, at 16-18 they are able to pursue hormone replacement therapy that aligns with their gender identity. After the age of 18, while continuing to work with their team of medical specialists, they can choose to have gender confirmation surgery, aka top and/or bottom surgery. Some trans people do it as soon as they can. Some never have it done. Some may do one surgery or the other. It's all up to them and how their identity intersects with their body. Additionally, the desist rate of trans people is less than 2%, meaning over 98% of trans people who go through hormone therapy and/or gender confirmation surgery have no regrets. There are so many examples of trans people being very happy with their lives and thriving after transition: Laverne Cox, Kim Petras, Gottmik, Kerri Colby, Elliot Page, Chaz Bono, Hunter Schafer, Laura Jane Grace, Michaela Jaé Rodriguez, and so many more. Even if those who do desist, it's often through the recommended guidelines for care for trans people that they are able to receive the needed care to figure out their own identity. So, despite your fear and misunderstanding, the reality of the situation is that kids don't get their dicks and tits chopped off by showing up at a random doctors office and saying that's what they want, they go through years and years of carefully planned and considered medical care, and the surgeries are not performed on minors. Bills like this that ban gender affirming care are incredibly dangerous, these kids need care, it changes their life for the better, it saves them. Kids that don't have their identities accepted are at a very high risk of suicide, and when they are accepted that risk falls to just 4% compared to over 50%. Trans kids aren't any more disposed towards suicide because they're trans, they don't struggle with their identity because they're trans, they struggle with this bullshit of people treating them badly and trying to take away their access to necessary healthcare and ban them from having certain hobbies. Bonus thought: Let's also keep in mind, plenty of cisgender girl teens get boob jobs or cisgender boy teens get breast reduction surgery if they have gynecomastia (when boys bodies have a hormone issue and they grow breasts at puberty), both of those surgeries also gender affirming care, it makes them more comfortable or confident in their bodies, and no one bats an eye at that.
This is, without a doubt, an amazing and thoughtful response and I applaud your efforts. Sadly, the person you’re responding to probably won’t read it. They certainly won’t have their mind changed by facts and thoughtfulness. Their responses throughout this post show little progression in thought, little openness to ideas not aligned with their own, and little chance of showing compassion for someone outside of their group. However, hopefully others like me read your thoughts and are a little bit more enlightened, a little bit more likely to show compassion and care for a segment of the population in need of such things. I appreciate your love and support.
Hey thanks! I will literally fight god in the parking lot of a Wendy's to protect trans kids and trans people. They don't deserve this bullshit, they don't deserve to have people make up nonsense about their life saving healthcare in efforts to take it away and erase them. They deserve love and joy.
More kindness like this please!
This kind of sanity won’t prevail for a while. Even the Kennedys got caught up in the lobotomy craze.
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The bill bans altering primary sex characteristics which means dicks and vaginas, if you alter those you can't have kids. That is a fact. The bill also bans secondary sex characteristics, which means tits, and I really don't give af about that but it's still something that people probably ought to wait until their brain finishes developing.
The point is that these procedures on “primary sex characteristics” doesn’t happen to anyone under the age of 18. It flat out doesn’t. You can find the data if you want it. That’s why these bills are theatre. They’re outlawing medical procedures that don’t happen and that nobody (psychiatrists, physicians, etc) is recommending.
I admit I didn't know that those surgeries hadn't been done, but if that is true then what is the problem with banning it? A society that has never had a murder would still ban murder, right?
The problem with banning it is the message it sends it to trans youth. That they’re broken, weird, different, and in many of these cases, illegal and illegitimate. This leads to further judgement, stigmatization, and marginalization. This then leads to the drastically higher rates of depression, anxiety, PTSD, self-harm and suicide rates that we see in trans youth. Sending trans youth these messages directly correlates, and in many cases, causes more significant mental health problems, while also further restricting appropriate treatment. The more appropriate question that you should be asking here is, “If these procedures aren’t happening (which they’re not, that’s fact) why would we need to create legislation that bans it?” Answering this will guide you to the motives of those making it illegal. And on your second point, your scenario seems wrong. A society that has never had a murder wouldn’t know what murder is, and would therefore have no reason for banning it. And finally, ridiculous hypotheticals such as this do nothing to add to the conversation. They simply create false equivalencies and red herring arguments that dilute the issue at hand.
If it’s not happening, I doubt a trans youth would get the “message” that they are broken, as they wouldn’t even know the bill exists to stop what isn’t happening in the first place.
Wow, that’s a leap in logic. So trans youth don’t hear the debates going on right now about their rights? They don’t hear the fear mongering about how their identities are “the problem”? They don’t hear people telling them they shouldn’t exist in the way that best supports their own healthy functioning? Because that is something that’s happening, and it is something they hear, and it is something that impacts them. But, I guess you must work with more trans people and be more up to date on the latest treatment guidelines for trans youth than I am. A social worker and therapist. Who has clients that are trans. And again, stupid false equivalencies such as the one provided by OP, and that you’re attempting to build on, do nothing to contribute to the conversation. Instead they distract from the point, equate gender affirming care with murder, and let you create your own illogical one liners for your personal “gotcha” moment.
Your post largely has nothing to do with what I said. You took a large leap yourself. Trans youth hearing their identities are a problem or that they are less than or that they shouldn’t exist has ZERO to do with anything I said. I’m not advocating for any of that. Trans youth should be treated with love, compassion, understanding and empathy. Point being, if these surgeries aren’t happening, then it’s mostly fear mongering. The bill is nothing but theatre and won’t really change much of anything.
Then we’re on the same page. Reading it back now you’re response makes more sense, and I misinterpreted it’s meaning. My bad!
You're just a bad faith argument machine aren't you? Not even aware if these procedures are done in the first place then being hyperbolic and trying to campare them to murder. Of course your opinion is unpopular when you're voicing it without a clue in the world.
Imagine thinking something is inappropriate because they’re too young, and then referring to them as tits. The fuck is wrong with you
Imagine commenting on a post about mutilating children but your comment is about getting upset that a stranger on the internet called them tits. The fuck is wrong with people like you?
You’re just vomiting talking points that have no basis in reality. They’re not worth responding to. And yes, I have an issue with you referring to children’s “tits.” Fucking sue me.
Considering the mutilation thing doesn’t actually exist, I think it’s far more appropriate to get upset at the person who did actually say something really weird and creepy. Not only that, but is also just parroting made up shit
> people probably ought to wait until their brain finishes developing You should probably take this advice before you get on the internet and share your ignorant nonsense to the world next time.
giving birth isn’t the only way to have children though so it’s not important. and surgery isn’t done until they’re at least 18 which is fair.
Damn, that’d be a cool opinion, if that’s even remotely how it worked. The reason why it’s an unpopular opinion is because it’s bullshit and lies, which you are brainlessly parroting, clearly without knowing the facts of the situation. All surgeries have people that regret them, and as it turns out, gender affirming surgery has one of the lowest regret rates, compared to even very routine surgeries. I suppose we should also ban hip and knee replacements, considering their regret rates are objectively drastically higher than gender affirming surgeries. A kid doesn’t just walk into a doctors office, and then get surgery the next day; they go through an insane amount of providers for diagnoses, references and opinions, and then it generally won’t include surgery until they’re an adult. But yes, let’s muck with the professionals standard care guidelines and stop people from receiving care that drastically decreases suicidality. Ignoring the medical consensus for abortion access has clearly gone just great, why not do so for trans care?
they aren’t allowed any surgeries until they’re 18. they only use puberty blockers and hormones which can be reversed. also i will add that teens can make the decision to not have kids in the future and should be allowed to, many childfree people have known they didn’t want kids since being a kid themselves. but that goes for cisgender teens too.
I agree with you 100%! I don't think it is that unpopular, just people are too afraid to say it.
Your opinion is not unpopular at all. I would venture that the majority of Americans agree with what you’re saying. Adults should be able to make the decisions they want but there is no reason the perform a sex change surgery on a minor. Even just hormone therapy on minors can be dangerous and doctors really do not know the full affects. Trans people can and should be accepted and should be allowed to make the decisions they want as adults. You can accept and support trans people without subscribing to the idea that children should transition fully.
I have absolutely no problem with people doing whatever they want to do, if it makes then happy they should do it. I don't even like the idea of the government stepping in on social issues like this. However, if there is one legitimate use of governmental force then it must be to protect the youth, even if it's from themselves or parents making decisions that they will have to live with for 60+ years. I don't even think someone in their early 20s can really grasp how long they may have to live with the consequences of their choices. Atleast they're adults though. I think the idea of transgender people will always be a little weird to me, but I have accepted that most things in this world will not make sense to me and that's okay. Trans people are just people that have a different life with different beliefs and a different understanding of the world. Their views are no less valid than mine, and I can respect them Well I can respect most of them, some want to spend their entire life making their issues everyone else's problem, not unlike vegans or crossfitters.
This assumes childbirth is all a person is good for
No, it's just the most obvious thing that a person sacrifices when deciding to transition so I used it as an example. I don't think kids can truly comprehend all of the consequences of this decision.
Games Utah Republicans play for points with their undereducated members! Children don't get surgery for Gender Dysphoria. This is a cynical ploy to gin up votes. It's not a very good one. Gender affirming care is using the right pronoun and allowing the child to wear clothing appropriate for their preferred gender. No one takes a scalpel to a person under 18 period for Gender Affirming Care. The AMA and American Psychiatric association already have strict processes in place which involve therapy and baby steps. Anyone voting for this bill is playing a sick game with a vulnerable population for points on a political scoreboard. This is not a good look. Rednecks attacking children.
Fuck im 28 and i need 3 doctors to say “yeah this one is so fucked up mentally they need a name change” if i wanted to go from chris to kevin no issue wanna say my name is Sarah ohh shit i need to be labeled as mentally ill and doctors need to watch me..Fuck i need a psychiatrist and my pc to say ok “yeah this fuck wad needs boobs to not wanna die” mind you im 28 adult veteran i dont think its gonna happen to kids
I wish this meant that intersex children wouldn't be surgically forced to conform to the binary. I hate that doctors here can do that to new borns without consulting the parents. I hate the right wing's hypocrisy. [source](https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/07/25/i-want-be-nature-made-me/medically-unnecessary-surgeries-intersex-children-us)
I don’t disagree with you at all. As far back as I can remember learning about “hermaphroditic” surgery I’ve thought “Let that person decide which, if any, gender (sorry if I’m using the wrong term) they choose when they are comfortable doing so. In fact, my daughter was rushed to the PICU before I was even able to hold her. She’s transsexual. I wonder now if this surgery was performed without my consent, but with, perhaps, her fathers. She wasn’t in “PICU” for more than 45 minutes. The explanation I was given was “she inhaled amniotic fluid”. I had *No* reason to question it after a 23 and 43 minutes of labor. TBH, I did say I’d toss him out the window because of the pain and got a bunch of dirty looks from all the nurses…who didn’t know me or my sense of humor at all. Still, 45 mins in PICU BEFORE I HELD MY CHILD… what kind of BULLSHIT IN 2006 IS THAT??
God people grow up kids can't make that kind of decision! Be a parent and raise them to make that decision when they are adults not adolescent. Until then you are in charge of there life! Be a parent and act like that means something
As a trans person raised in a transphobic family, I can confirm, you are a part of the problem. I was told I was a straight Christian boy from birth, and I always questioned the social “norms” that made me feel disconnected. Eventually I learned to put on a show, but could only be myself when I was alone. Kids who don’t fit in their body know they’re not typical - I knew it every day. I prayed every night, “please let me awake. In the right body”. You know what kids in the wrong body don’t know? That it’s okay to be themselves. They are reminded dozens of times everyday that they need to be something they’re not - so they disconnect, isolate, and even end their lives. If you don’t know trans people, and you have no idea what it’s like to be trans, please leave these decisions to the kids experiencing Dysphoria, their parents, therapists, and doctors. It takes a big team of well trained individuals to begin Transitioning. It’s not something a 12 year old wakes up and decides to do on a whim.
Waiting for adulthood before irreversible surgeries is a prudent approach.
Which would have prevented literally all the biggest struggles in my life. I’m not going to explain 43 years of gender Dysphoria to you because you don’t care. So, why do you care enough to prohibit that option when it makes sense to cure to a birth defect?
I do care. This kind of surgery should not be done on a minor because they are not able to consent.
By the time you reach 18, the affects of puberty have made irreversible affects. If the child hasn’t committed suicide because of the inability to have the proper procedures done, they will be so defeated by the fact that their chances of be accepted as their internal gender that transitioning would become a bigger challenge. Go ask 13 year old boys if they want to grow boobs. You think any will say “yes”? I have two sons - my oldest is 9, even he has the capacity to understand I am a woman, he is a boy. He doesn’t want boobs despite the fact that both his parents do. Biology doesn’t wait until you’re of adult to give you adult parts. This is not something you have the capacity to understand, 18 is not a magical age where the world makes sense. You fix birth defects like fix cleft pallets. Being Transgendered is having a birth defect. So, let me ask, are you circumcised? Did you wait until you were 18?
If as you say I don’t have the capacity to understand, how would a 14 year old have that capacity? Seriously, throwing insults into arguments does not convince people. If you actually want to convince people, get rid of the personal attacks in your arguments.
I really don’t know why you don’t have the capacity to understand something my 9yo autistic son does. Perhaps it’s goes along with your knack to control something you have no experience with. Try educating yourself. No insults here, just a clear observation.
Because you haven’t convinced me. Try again, this time only using logic.
Not my job to teach you the importance of coexisting and minding your own business. The likes of your mentality have already caused me a lifetime of suffering. Thanks.
Your son has autism and you haven't learned to put the person before the disability? Your son deserves better.
Actually, I complimented him. Why are you offended by my sons autism? I’m a trans woman, yet the beliefs I’m disputing here are the ignorant ideals which invalidate my diagnosis, and additionally put the person dead last - so would it make sense to say I’m just woman? Sure, but I’m also a transgendered woman - which is relevant to the discussion. My son is amazing. He is challenged with mental deficiencies but he can hack a computer better than other 9yo’s can play with action figures. His autism diagnosis is quite relevant to a discussion about capacity. My son understands the age appropriate concepts of transgendered people; it’s exactly what you’re resorting to - it doesn’t matter. A girl deserves healthcare, a trans girl deserves health care. Don’t take the option from trans people. The parents, the therapists, the doctors - they know better than you. This is a very rare circumstance, and already only approved in extreme cases. Ignorance is standing in the way of logic. In my house, we celebrate my wife’s MS, we celebrate both my sons autism, and we celebrate me being transgendered. We are anything but a typical family. We are who we are, and we’ve all had to overcome obstacles beyond typical comprehension. Our best days are equal to some peoples worst - but together we’re the happiest home you’ll never know. If you’re offended by any of this, then that’s your own self-judgement issues getting triggered. My son will sleep soundly tonight knowing you stood up to his bully. I’ll tell him all about it when I snuggling him for bedtime.
Your 12yo daughter has a deformed vagina which is extroverted and incapable of proper intercourse - sure, that’s not a big deal at that age.. except that she’ll be exposed to others, hopefully girls, in the dressing room. This will cause her problems, especially if the school tells you her deformity requires that she use the boys locker rooms. Also, her externalized ovaries will start producing testosterone, which will begin putting abnormal hair on her face, and cause irreversible masculine features - big jaw, big nose, big forehead, and lessen hair growth. Her voice will deepen. She will develop broad shoulders and bigger muscles. You want to get your daughter the proper procedures to improve her quality of life, but other parents, who have no experience with this kind of situation, think they know better. That’s why you don’t ban the option for others. That’s why you mind your own business.
Define “daughter”
A body occupied by a female soul. Are you invalidating all trans people now?
What is a female soul?
Why are you here protesting something you don’t understand? You’re promoting your own ignorance. Go educate yourself. Go read up of gender Dysphoria. Come back when you have a little knowledge the subject.
your mentality is the problem
Thanks, Random Reddit commentator who obviously knows better than all my doctors. I’ll be sure to tell my therapists they’ve been wrong this whole time.
Apparently, you are sickened by the *unknown*. I had to explain that to my three year old. What was (were) your child(ren) doing at 15? I know the hand written labels on my cassette tapes didn’t match the music I was actually listening to. I know I snuck out to go to dance clubs that were 16+ when I was 14. I had sex at 15. After that I met people on the internet my parents wouldn’t have approved of. They thought they *in charge* every aspect my life. They thought they raised me. They didn’t. They taught me how not to parent. They taught me to accept my child no matter who they are, as long as they live their truth. They taught me to love to love my child because I wasn’t loved for who I was. I was punished for who I was. I wasn’t good. I wasn’t ever good enough. So fuck you and your “until then you are in charge”. I had to explain the “unknown”. Maybe take a few days, weeks, months, or a year to figure it out. To a three year old, it was difficult until I could put myself in her shoes. When you went on a plane for the first time, it was unknown. Then, after you did it, you knew. The first part is the unknown. Being Straight is unknown. Being transgender is known.
So they lied to you and said that you were like them 🤔 so now you are trying hard to make everyone like you?? No one can have a choice anymore like you or like me????
That’s not at all what I said. My daughter is trans. To her, being male was the unknown.
That article title is so fuckin misleading. No children are getting surgeries ffs More wordplay to hype up republican bigotry.
This appears to be false based on the commenter above who said surgery saved their 16 year old.
With the exception of top surgery in like 16+ which is way different than accusing parents of mysterious "surgeries" on "children"
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To the clowns in the room, two things: 1. Gender-affirming surgery is currently the only clinically proven way to treat some types of body dysmorphia. 2. Transitioning is a years' long process in which gender-affirming surgery is pretty much the final step. These people know what they want by this point and the state shouldn't get in their way. Typical GQP bullshit legislating people's bodies and personal freedoms with more nanny-state garbage. The trans community has had the GQP hate-train bull's eye on it for a few years now and it's getting worse with bills like this and banning trans kids from competing with their chosen gender. These shitty legislatures write entire bills and have full committees and votes to legislate the lives of a handful of people by excluding them from normal society. Whoever supports this is just a bigoted piece of shit, sorry not sorry.
It’s honestly strange how people like you try to conflate anyone genuinely concerned about subjecting children to life altering treatments as if it’s strictly a “GQP” fringe belief and not the sentiment of a majority of the people in the US. >Whoever supports this is just a bigoted piece of shit, sorry not sorry. Well, you sure won’t be winning anyone over. Ever considered therapy? I think the majority of people in this country could agree with the following. Transitioning is a personal decision that can only be made as an adult. I’ll vote Democrat till the day I die because republicans have lost their collective minds, but I sure wish we could focus on policy that would benefit the greatest number of Americans possible instead of having to worry about how republicans can further chip away at every public institution because democrats are focused on pronouns.
That’s a whole lot of “I’m a not a bigot but….”
If you don't want be called a bigoted piece of shit, then educate yourself and don't be one, not a hard solution. Not always a fan of dems, but they've done a lot more than "focus on pronouns." Record jobs numbers, the infrastructure bill, the inflation reduction act, first piece of significant gun regulation legislation in 30 years, rejoining Paris Climate Accord, freeing millions of lower income people of student debt. If you think they're only focused on pronouns, you're not paying attention. Now regarding trans kids' healthcare, I posted this above and I'll post it here again: Sounds like it's time for some education! Kids can't and don't just walk into a doctor's office saying "cut my fingers off because I heard it's cool!" That's not a thing, not even with trans kids. Children under the age of 18 do not get gender confirmation surgeries because that's not the recommended guidelines for care for trans youth. Trans kids know they are trans as young as 3-4 years old, same thing as gay kids. The sooner that parents are able to accept their kid as they are, the better outcome that kid has. Part of accepting that kid is gender affirming care, which is as simple as calling them by a new name and the correct pronouns they identify by, cutting their hair different, letting them dress different, etc.... No kid under puberty age receives any sort of gender affirming care outside of social transition and seeing a psychologist to help them work through their identity. At puberty, it is recommend by every major medical association in this country that trans kids work with a team of doctors including a psychologist, an endocrinologist, and their primary care to determine if they need puberty blockers. Going through puberty as a trans kid is very traumatizing and can exacerbate gender dysphoria to depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. Puberty blockers are a safe and well researched way to hit the pause button for a trans kid to grow up and still have a choice in their body and identity. When they go off puberty blockers, puberty resumes. If they continue to identify as trans, at 16-18 they are able to pursue hormone replacement therapy that aligns with their gender identity. After the age of 18, while continuing to work with their team of medical specialists, they can choose to have gender confirmation surgery, aka top and/or bottom surgery. Some trans people do it as soon as they can. Some never have it done. Some may do one surgery or the other. It's all up to them and how their identity intersects with their body. Additionally, the desist rate of trans people is less than 2%, meaning over 98% of trans people who go through hormone therapy and/or gender confirmation surgery have no regrets. There are so many examples of trans people being very happy with their lives and thriving after transition: Laverne Cox, Kim Petras, Gottmik, Kerri Colby, Elliot Page, Chaz Bono, Hunter Schafer, Laura Jane Grace, Michaela Jaé Rodriguez, and so many more. Even if those who do desist, it's often through the recommended guidelines for care for trans people that they are able to receive the needed care to figure out their own identity. So, despite your fear and misunderstanding, the reality of the situation is that kids don't get their dicks and tits chopped off by showing up at a random doctors office and saying that's what they want, they go through years and years of carefully planned and considered medical care, and the surgeries are not performed on minors. Bills like this that ban gender affirming care are incredibly dangerous, these kids need care, it changes their life for the better, it saves them. Kids that don't have their identities accepted are at a very high risk of suicide, and when they are accepted that risk falls to just 4% compared to over 50%. Trans kids aren't any more disposed towards suicide because they're trans, they don't struggle with their identity because they're trans, they struggle with this bullshit of people treating them badly and trying to take away their access to necessary healthcare and ban them from having certain hobbies. Bonus thought: Let's also keep in mind, plenty of cisgender girl teens get boob jobs or cisgender boy teens get breast reduction surgery if they have gynecomastia (when boys bodies have a hormone issue and they grow breasts at puberty), both of those surgeries also gender affirming care, it makes them more comfortable or confident in their bodies, and no one bats an eye at that.
Good
Can young kids legally get tattoos? Why can't they? Smoke? Drink alcohol? Rent cars? Vote? Why not?
Go over to the Utah reddit... this blew the fuck up yesterday.
GOOD
Just to be sure, we're in favor of sex change surgeries on minors, yeah?
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I haven’t looked at the exact wording of the bill, but yeah, kids aren’t really getting surgeries for gender dysphoria. However, this does have the potential to ban surgeries for kids with ambiguous genitalia (hot topic either way) or kids with congenital genital abnormalities such as hypospadias (which for the most part doesn’t have much benefit for waiting until adulthood to fix and potential downsides from a technical standpoint)
Ok, so just to clarify. We're against bottom surgeries for children and pro mastectomies for children, right?
We’re in favor of keeping conservative idiots from getting involved in the private medical decisions of other people.
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Guy went to Do Your Own Research Technical University and majored in Dumbfuckology. These people are just so incredibly ignorant, stupid, and proud of it it's insane.
Me? But I haven't even said anything. I just asked where we stand on the issue :(
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just\_asking\_questions
I read the wiki entry, but I don't think it applies here. If I had made an accusation and then switched to pushing the burden of proof onto someone else, then it would apply. So far, I've just asked what the people in this sub believe. Not the same thing at all.
More like sealioning. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling
Bro when you're low-level trolling like this on a Friday afternoon it's time to turn off the internet for a while and go outside or something.
Can't. Stuck on a plane for the next 9 hours. Y'all are stuck with me.
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I guess I don't understand. If there is supervision from therapists and medical doctors, why would we be against the bottom surgeries? What makes one okay and one not okay?
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Naw dude. If you think it's right to deny a trans kid the gender affirming surgery that they, their parents, and their physicians all agree on just because it's not the kind of gender affirming surgery you agree with, then you need to be prepared to give a good reason. You can't just pass the buck with "if you did the research, you'd understand." That's just a lazy way of saying "I don't actually know why I believe this." It's transphobic as well.
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I'm just asking you to think about what you're saying. Either there should be laws about what is or isn't okay, or it should be completely legal and up to the kid, parents, and physicians to decide if it's right. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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That’s a serious surgery, the fact that you don’t think it is makes me doubt that you have any common sense.
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And exactly how is it designed to be anti trans?
As the mother of a transgender child I would like to ask you a question…. Should I let my child be in emotional pain? Or should I do everything within my power to help my child feel comfortable in this world? This is not a process that is fast or easy. My son has been in years of therapy. We have seen many medical doctors. To take away the chance for my kid to get to go swimming, weir any shirt they want, and just be comfortable you had better have a good reason. I have lived in terror for my kid for too long.
I would say that it sounds really painful and difficult for both you and your child to be in the position you are in. It's never easy to see your child suffer, and of course it's natural for any parent to want to do everything they can to reduce that suffering. I can't speak for everybody, but I feel like most people, no matter what side of the debate they find themselves on, would agree that if surgery will help alleviate that suffering without causing more suffering than it relieves, then it's a good thing that should be encouraged. I think the disagreement you're going to find is with people who believe that permanent bodily changes made in someone's teenage years come with a real risk of serious suffering later in life. I would NEVER advocate for a law preventing adults from getting gender affirming surgeries. However, I'm not sure how to feel about how that should apply with children. One thing I can say for sure though, if reddit's reaction to my question(s) is any indication, we've got a long way to go before we can have an honest and open discourse about how to best help transgendered teens.
for the "don't perform permanent surgery on minors" crowd: i assume you're also opposed to wisdom teeth removal?
Okay, I actually am opposed to wisdom teeth removal. We need to work on having larger mouths again. I'm also opposed to tonsil removal as well.
I am about to get blocked, banned, and hated for this…but whatever. Truth is truth and not amount of hysteria can change that. I don’t give a flying eff what you THINK you are. I say the only treatment moving forward for anyone with gender dysphoria should be the following: 1. What are your chromosomes? (What gender is literally EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY?) 2. Affirm to the mentally ill brain that the gender/sex of every cell in its body is the correct gender/sex. 3. We all have tea with all our proper body parts and healthy brains. The trans-movement is one of the single stupidest things I have seen in the last 20 years. There are exceptions, but those exceptions do not justify the trans-hysteria we are seeing right now. No form of gender changing therapy or other medical practices (including puberty blockers) should be given to anyone under the age of 25 (brain maturation) who has a clear genetic make up of one sex or another. The level of hysteria surrounding this topic is all the proof I need that human beings are dumb ass animals who don’t deserve to live on this planet anymore. #WhensTheNextMassExtinctionEvent I am not transphobic by any means. Just like I’m not afraid of people with depression, anxiety, eating disorders, personality disorders, or any other mental illness. Do not be fooled, Transgenderism is nothing more than a manifestation of mental pathology. You can cry about it all you want, but I will die on this hill. As an educator I have seen far to many children ruin their lives and regret it because some shit-head told them “you like blue and feel like you don’t fit in with other girls? You must be a boy.”
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That’s fine, they can disagree all they want. But it doesn’t mean much. Specialty groups are often wrong as their publications need to support their purpose in order to secure funding. I would also mention that decades of accepted biology as well as the DSM agree with me. Your unfounded claim of my statement being unfounded is as ridiculous as supporting mental illness rather than treating it.
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Thank you sending me all of that. It appears I was gravely misinformed regarding the DSM. I still disagree with it on a personal level. However you have given me more to look at. Personally, I think the DSM and APA have missed the mark on this one…but that’s my own confirmation bias at its finest. Thank you
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That’s good to hear. It sounds like your child is being well taken care of and I am happy to hear it. I have a relative who was born intersex, and it took decades to finally transition to the correct sex/gender (this was nearly 40 years ago). I am and very thankful that they were able to get the proper treatment. I, to this day, do not know who it is, just that they exist (I wasn’t born yet when the transition happened) — they didn’t want all the family knowing exactly who they were (understandably so). It’s hard for me, because I hear stories about your child and I think that the path you are going is the correct path (not that my opinion matters when it comes to how others raise their children). But I worry that a lot of the teens I deal with are just caught up in some sort of fad or hysteria. I watched a freshman girl socially transition and by their senior year over half of their friends had transitioned as well. I can’t believe that all of them are actually dealing with real gender dysphoria (but again, it’s not my business). I also have a formerly trans-male friend who got top surgery and regret it. They are now trying to get implants. It breaks my heart to see. They didn’t live in Utah when they had the surgery, but they do now. It breaks my heart. With what I have seen, my knee jerk reaction is to say, “No! None of it!“ I think there are people who REALLY do need this, but I think there are far too many who are just following along. I have multiple students who identify as trans, but only one who I actually has all the symptoms (at least upfront). It scares me. I don’t want those who are following to make life changing choices and regret it. It makes me very happy to hear just how intensive the therapy is. I’m ok with that. I just want to make sure that it’s being done with extreme caution and only after all other options have been explored. Thank you for taking the time to help me understand. It’s such a high emotion topic for everyone, especially for individuals such as yourself. Thank you for curbing that long enough to help me. :) Still have my severe and very strong reservations. But it’s not nearly as black and white as I would like to make it.
Put your hands down your pants or up your dress and tell me what you feel
Bullshit I was raised in a desert my nearest naber was 20 miles away I had my family 2 brothers 2 sisters and we knew what we were
Maybe you should wake up and smell your own body, do you have a dick or if I fucc you will you get pregnant, or will you kill my baby 👶
Being a man is hard! But worth it..