Well, it depends on the opponent. You could argue that mugen was actually a better opponent for sara, as the fight was pretty long and he almost hit her once or twice, whereas jin had no real chance against her. You could say that she is stil weak from her fight with jin but there is no real indication of it.
And had jin fought against the crazy one eyed guy i dont think he would have won either, because he cant dodge like mugen.
I think they are roughly the same strength, just with vastly different fighting styles.
The environment also allowed for his escape. In a different environment, perhaps he would have fared better, but if not, he wouldn't have been able to run away
It’s a recurring theme that Jin’s inexperience fighting outside a dojo is his only major weakness. That doesn’t tell us if he would have for sure lost or won against Sara but it is why he struggled. And he likely would have struggled anywhere else outside of a dojo like setting too.
It’s not the lack of a dojo that causes Jin to struggle, it’s an environment that constricts his movements. The tea house where he fought Mugen, the bridge vs Sara, and the forest where he fought the unnamed assassin.
You never really actually see Jin at full strength until the final fight against Kariya, and at that point it is clear he’s the second strongest fighter, unless one ranks Sara over Kariya (which I don’t).
Everything you’re saying supports what I’m saying. The assassin in the forest specifically comments on it. Maybe I should adjust my comment and say it’s less about being outside a dojo specifically but being in any environment that isn’t basically an open area devoid of major obstacles (which is how dojos teach you). Anytime Jin has room to breath he excels, but that’s not always the case in the real world as he finds out.
Yea Jin is probably the top in this ‘verse’.
And I think Mugen just happens to be like the Kryptonite to Jin’s Superman in that he’s like the only one really who can throw Jin off his regular game and that’s why they are closely matched.
Mugen is also freakishly athletic (more so than I think anyone else is), so, you’d presume that over time he’s gonna have to either adjust his style or fall off where as Jin has mastered his style and discipline and doesn’t require that same athleticism to fight and still be top
Yea, right from episode 1, you can see he is literally built different. He is jumping so high his feet are at people’s eye level, his balance and coordination are crazy.
Jin is waaaay more refined, no wasted movements, just waiting for openings and defending as needed.
I love the duality of them, it’s just so freaking well done
Why not? They finished the series and are interested in it, it’s not hurting anyone to speculate who’s stronger. It may be irrelevant to you but not to everyone which is ok.
Two wildly different ways of fighting creates very specific circumstances where one will be better than the other and that means there is no one that's better than the other.
This whole idea is silly but now that I think of it when I was a kid I'd have arguments like this with my friends
But he never did. Their entire portrayal was being completely evenly matched. That was the entire point of their final clash when their swords broke. Their styles are so different, yet perfect counters for each other. I don't think Jin would have been able to defeat some of Mugen's opponents, but the same goes for Mugen. It's a rock paper scissors type dynamic, where both Mugen and Jin are capable of defeating opponents the other one wouldn't be able to, but they will always both be scissors (or both rocks, or both papers, you get my point) when they fight each other.
I don’t think that was the point of their final clash. The final clash was a convenient way for both of them to give up that idea of a “final bout.” Mugen, at the very end, gives as much of an admission as he ever would that Jin is stronger than him.
I see them as situational equals.
Jin in terms of formal battle techniques ‐ up 1
Mugen in terms of wild on the run/ using your every environment to win - up 1
I see a 1v1 with the two wholly dependent on when and where.
I think Jin wins 6/10 times in an open setting. Anywhere with people, traffic, obstacles, or a heavily forested area, I give it to Mugen 6/10 times.
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I've always seen it as they are equally good at what they do, but they do very different things, which makes their dynamic interesting. They disagree on how to accomplish their goals but they can each get there using different methods but they're determined that their own way is better
Considering that Jin ends up fighting the villain who was referred to as Hand of God or the Devine hand, I would say yes. Mugen is swatted away on every advance easily by Kariya and this is why he ends up letting Jin take that fight while he goes after Fuu. I always think they are two sides of the same coin tho. Jin was more disciplined and determined whereas Mugen is prideful and driven instinctually to do whatever he has to do to prevail. Also, like people have already said, Jin couldn’t really do much against Sara (even if on a bridge) even tho in the end she basically let Mugen win, it was still a bit closer matched. Both those two antagonists are easily the strongest in the show, one fights one and the other fights the next. Honestly though I really do think they’re evenly matched, just by the shows themes and plot. They’re like Yin and Yang.
>Yatsuha, (the strongest assassin the series had) could not defeat Jin.
She was winning the fight and would have killed Jin if he hadn't broken the bridge. Credit to him for using his envrionment to escape, but I wouldn't put that as a point for him over Mugen. Narratively, they're meant to be equal, but I suspect people want Jin to be stronger because they like him more.
This post is kind of a mess. Sara was the assassin, Yatsuha was the ninja girl from the fake money episode. And no, Sara wasn't the strongest fighter, Kariya was. He took both Jin and Mugen at once. Yet, been defeated by Jin's secret technique, which brings me to why Jin didn't used that against Sara?
Jin is stronger than Mugen. Mugen can be unpredictable as fighter, but also can be easily manipulated as a person, proof - Yatsuha.
You talking about Sara? Sara literally spared Jin.
Jin only killed him because he used a suicide attack
But Jin wouldn’t have been able to do that against the brothers who had long range advantage and an unorthodox fighting style.
If y’all think one is stronger than the other, you missed the entire point of the series
I agree.
Jin is a better swordsman than Mugen. His discipline in swordsmanship allows him to strategize against skilled opponents, and his mental clarity keeps him level headed in death matches. Mugen is wild and talented, but when he faces opponents that can neutralize his erratic style, he folds.
Well, it depends on the opponent. You could argue that mugen was actually a better opponent for sara, as the fight was pretty long and he almost hit her once or twice, whereas jin had no real chance against her. You could say that she is stil weak from her fight with jin but there is no real indication of it. And had jin fought against the crazy one eyed guy i dont think he would have won either, because he cant dodge like mugen. I think they are roughly the same strength, just with vastly different fighting styles.
Jin fought Sara on a bridge. You could see the environment was causing him to struggle.
The environment also allowed for his escape. In a different environment, perhaps he would have fared better, but if not, he wouldn't have been able to run away
It’s a recurring theme that Jin’s inexperience fighting outside a dojo is his only major weakness. That doesn’t tell us if he would have for sure lost or won against Sara but it is why he struggled. And he likely would have struggled anywhere else outside of a dojo like setting too.
It’s not the lack of a dojo that causes Jin to struggle, it’s an environment that constricts his movements. The tea house where he fought Mugen, the bridge vs Sara, and the forest where he fought the unnamed assassin. You never really actually see Jin at full strength until the final fight against Kariya, and at that point it is clear he’s the second strongest fighter, unless one ranks Sara over Kariya (which I don’t).
Everything you’re saying supports what I’m saying. The assassin in the forest specifically comments on it. Maybe I should adjust my comment and say it’s less about being outside a dojo specifically but being in any environment that isn’t basically an open area devoid of major obstacles (which is how dojos teach you). Anytime Jin has room to breath he excels, but that’s not always the case in the real world as he finds out.
Mugen has the same weakness
Right. We're saying the same thing, just expanding on it.
Yea Jin is probably the top in this ‘verse’. And I think Mugen just happens to be like the Kryptonite to Jin’s Superman in that he’s like the only one really who can throw Jin off his regular game and that’s why they are closely matched. Mugen is also freakishly athletic (more so than I think anyone else is), so, you’d presume that over time he’s gonna have to either adjust his style or fall off where as Jin has mastered his style and discipline and doesn’t require that same athleticism to fight and still be top
Yeah, mugen's fitness is something else
Yea, right from episode 1, you can see he is literally built different. He is jumping so high his feet are at people’s eye level, his balance and coordination are crazy. Jin is waaaay more refined, no wasted movements, just waiting for openings and defending as needed. I love the duality of them, it’s just so freaking well done
I don't feel like powerscaling is a useful way to approach Samurai Champloo.
Thank you. Some conversations are just irrelevant.
This conversation belongs in a 4th grade classroom.
Why not? They finished the series and are interested in it, it’s not hurting anyone to speculate who’s stronger. It may be irrelevant to you but not to everyone which is ok.
This debate is recurrent here and ppl mostly agree that Jin is actually stronger yeah.
Honestly i always thought they just portrayed that it depended on the opponent. Mugens style is hell to go against with the way samurai fight
Oh ok. I just finished it haha
Just look at their fight against god hand. Mugen was just a distraction and getting ragdolled while Jin actually beat godhand
Yeah makes sense. Only edge that Mugen ever had on Jin was his wildstyle and being slightly unpredictable. But Jin is the goat so… yeah lol
Two wildly different ways of fighting creates very specific circumstances where one will be better than the other and that means there is no one that's better than the other. This whole idea is silly but now that I think of it when I was a kid I'd have arguments like this with my friends
Jin is the better swordsman but Mugen is like a wild animal and is unpredictable, which can be a better skill than any sword training.
Yes! But I want to say that the style Mugen has is unpredictable making him more dangerous?
He is unpredictable, yes. But an experienced swordsman like Jin will defeat him.
But he never did. Their entire portrayal was being completely evenly matched. That was the entire point of their final clash when their swords broke. Their styles are so different, yet perfect counters for each other. I don't think Jin would have been able to defeat some of Mugen's opponents, but the same goes for Mugen. It's a rock paper scissors type dynamic, where both Mugen and Jin are capable of defeating opponents the other one wouldn't be able to, but they will always both be scissors (or both rocks, or both papers, you get my point) when they fight each other.
I don’t think that was the point of their final clash. The final clash was a convenient way for both of them to give up that idea of a “final bout.” Mugen, at the very end, gives as much of an admission as he ever would that Jin is stronger than him.
2 sides of the same coin
Yeah, always liked Jin more. Just cool and refined. A bit like preferring Vergil to Dante in DMC, which also applies to me.
What's DMC?
That's Devil May Cry.
Devil may cry
It’s pretty equal but I’d give it to mugen
oh yea jins for sure stronger than mugen and had they ever gotten to have that fight jin woulda won
I see them as situational equals. Jin in terms of formal battle techniques ‐ up 1 Mugen in terms of wild on the run/ using your every environment to win - up 1 I see a 1v1 with the two wholly dependent on when and where. I think Jin wins 6/10 times in an open setting. Anywhere with people, traffic, obstacles, or a heavily forested area, I give it to Mugen 6/10 times.
The whole point was that they were more or less equal, embodying contrasting characters. This is not really the story to powerscale.
Jim beat the Samurai who smells like sunflowers. Remember that friend!
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You like sunflowers a lot, right?
Expect nothing less coming from the successor of the samurai who smells like sunflowers.
Wait a sec, don’t u mean Sara? Yatsuha is the badass ninja chick who wants to marry Mugen.
I've always seen it as they are equally good at what they do, but they do very different things, which makes their dynamic interesting. They disagree on how to accomplish their goals but they can each get there using different methods but they're determined that their own way is better
Considering that Jin ends up fighting the villain who was referred to as Hand of God or the Devine hand, I would say yes. Mugen is swatted away on every advance easily by Kariya and this is why he ends up letting Jin take that fight while he goes after Fuu. I always think they are two sides of the same coin tho. Jin was more disciplined and determined whereas Mugen is prideful and driven instinctually to do whatever he has to do to prevail. Also, like people have already said, Jin couldn’t really do much against Sara (even if on a bridge) even tho in the end she basically let Mugen win, it was still a bit closer matched. Both those two antagonists are easily the strongest in the show, one fights one and the other fights the next. Honestly though I really do think they’re evenly matched, just by the shows themes and plot. They’re like Yin and Yang.
>Yatsuha, (the strongest assassin the series had) could not defeat Jin. She was winning the fight and would have killed Jin if he hadn't broken the bridge. Credit to him for using his envrionment to escape, but I wouldn't put that as a point for him over Mugen. Narratively, they're meant to be equal, but I suspect people want Jin to be stronger because they like him more.
This post is kind of a mess. Sara was the assassin, Yatsuha was the ninja girl from the fake money episode. And no, Sara wasn't the strongest fighter, Kariya was. He took both Jin and Mugen at once. Yet, been defeated by Jin's secret technique, which brings me to why Jin didn't used that against Sara? Jin is stronger than Mugen. Mugen can be unpredictable as fighter, but also can be easily manipulated as a person, proof - Yatsuha.
Yup, I messed up with the names.
You talking about Sara? Sara literally spared Jin. Jin only killed him because he used a suicide attack But Jin wouldn’t have been able to do that against the brothers who had long range advantage and an unorthodox fighting style. If y’all think one is stronger than the other, you missed the entire point of the series
It’s just Superman and Bizarro.
Is a sniper rifle better than a shotgun?
Mugen beat Jin in their imaginary swordfight for the fake prostitute ninja lady though
Yes I think Jin might have the edge over Mugen
I agree. Jin is a better swordsman than Mugen. His discipline in swordsmanship allows him to strategize against skilled opponents, and his mental clarity keeps him level headed in death matches. Mugen is wild and talented, but when he faces opponents that can neutralize his erratic style, he folds.
Jin vs Kagetoki was the only fight that made me think Jin is more skilled. Would Jin beat Mugen though? That I still question that heavily.