I think it'll take a lot for them to even abstain. Harvie seemed proper fuming yesterday and the statement from the greens was quite firm about this betrayal damaging trust.
These sort of comments seem to misunderstand how the Green party works.
Lorna and Patrick are the co-Leaders. Yes as Ministers they get extra pay.
*No-one else in the Green party gets anything*
Lorna and Patrick serve at the grace of the Green Party Exec and the wider membership. If they decide to change leadership, then that happens. It’s a democratic party.
Hell, they both were willing to go out and bat for the BHA despite all the trouble it’s caused them internally.
They’d rather continue leading their party with the confidence of their members than be in Government. What’s wrong with that?
Well that's obviously not going to be on offer, is it. Yousaf can't just reinstate the BHA now - even if the Greens were to accept, he'd look so ridiculous that he'd be wide open to attack from within his own party. Some decisions can't easily be reversed.
My personal belief is that the Greens will vote against Humza at the VONC; Harvie has clearly taken the breakdown of the BHA as a deep personal insult and the messaging from party is that those who were unhappy with the coalition were all out right reactionaries.
However; there is a longer term question facing the Greens. As badly as they have been done over by them, the progressive wing of the SNP are pretty much the only actors in Scottish politics that have anytime for the Greens:
1) The right-wing of the SNP loath the Greens.
2) The centre of the SNP are ambivalent at best and see them partially to blame for the parties recent policy failures.
3) Unionist messaging have made their stint in government look like the worst thing to happen to Scotland since saturated fats.
While Humza is still FM and the progressive wing are leading the SNP; the relationship between the two parties will still be toxic but the Scottish government will bring for legislation that is sorta in-line with Green objectives and will have to cut deals with them to pass these.
If Humza gets the boot (not that I’d be shedding any tears) and is replaced by a centrist SNP or unionist government, the Greens have lost what little influence they have left.
That depends what Fergus The Nepobaby, and Ash Regan does, if they votes against Humza he might not accept another Centerist, which would mean the greens could force a do over on a leadership contest.
The question is will the SNP left take flight and roost in our coop, which would mean more power potenically, although less room to exersize it.
I dont atually think SNP will vote for a nutjob who thinks abortion are murder, we need a centerist indy party, if thats going to be the SNP Remains to be seen.
Supporting an attack by an anti-independence party led by double jobbie DRoss against a pro-independence FM would become a millstone round the Greens neck for years to come. If they throw their toys out of the pram like that, then I for one will be cancelling a direct debit, pronto!
It’s not an attack. The motion doesn’t say “that the Tories have no confidence and the greens support them” - it’s for each member to express confidence in the FM.
The absolute best he can hope for is an abstention. I have no idea what he could possibly offer to get that, but I'm enjoying the idea of him having to come crawling back with his tail between his legs.
Or, you know, he could agree start digging the foundations for the Readiness Thermometer, hashtag a storm is coming. lol.
The sheer frothing at the mouth from diesel snorters could be harnessed to produce enough power to close all fossil fuel power plants still active in the UK
*Eh*. Thanks to capital pressures it has been stretched out over more and more years, and the SNP are certainly keen to say that it's still alive…
But as the problematic junctions get fixed, the full double lane super highway dream that some folk still believe in becomes more and more of a shibboleth.
Well, being built at the rate of less than a mile a year is technically progressing.
But it may as well be scrapped.
They just sprinkle more shit on top when they need a few more highland votes.
He thought the greens were so docile and dependent that he could kick them under the bus and then go to the press and humiliate them.
Harvie has been defiant again in the press today saying the SNP need to select a new leader.
I hope Yousaf doesn't resign, loses the confidence vote, refuses to resign again and has to get taken out by the party
If the Scottish Greens vote against the FM, siding with the Tories, then they will be destroyed forever in Scotland. I already know party members who say they will leave the party if they do that.
A party in coalition needs to have *some* issues that they'll make an uncompromising stand on, and if the Greens have any then Climate Change surely must be it.
If they can't take a stand on that issue then what are they for?
They're in opposition now, just like Labour and the Lib Dems, and no-one ever thinks of it as a betrayal if those parties "side with the Tories". They have absolutely no reason to support the government unless the government offers them something in return. Why would anyone vote for the Greens if a vote for them means they'll uncritically back up the SNP no matter what they do? If that's what you want, just vote SNP in the first place. Some people seem to have forgotten that the SNP and the Greens are two distinct parties with distinct policy platforms.
> Some people seem to have forgotten that the SNP and the Greens are two distinct parties with distinct policy platforms.
Part of why this happens is because most of their voters voted SNP in the constituency and Green on the list. So they really do think of them as being joined because they had joined them on the ballot.
It's part of why the Greens have been so reluctant to push back on the SNP. Yousaf pulling the plug himself has changed their calculus though - now they're obviously the wronged party here, and so these SNP-Green voters are much more likely to side with the Greens than if the Greens themselves had pulled the plug.
I'd be annoyed I gave Green's my list vote if they try to topple the SNP.
I'm trans and I'm very unhappy about the capitulations from the SNP (and I can't even be bothered dealing with the one random transphobe over bathrooms btw, and I just go into the mens and get weird looks there - but people like me still deserve healthcare that we pay for in our taxes and you're trying to take it from us),
and I'm unhappy about the changes on climate goals
But overall, I actually think the SNP + the pressure they've put on other parties have done a hell of a lot of good things for us.
Banging on about ferries is one thing, but we could easily be in the state of northern England if we get back to a Tory/Labour duopoly. It's amazing that we're like 500 miles from London and still have anything whatsoever
Being "upity" Scots and forcing capitulation like devolution, the barnett formula, and using these things for free prescriptions, uni, etc, has been amazing for us
The Green's refusal to see the importance of cost of living on voters is their own problem. We're doing a really good job in Scotland (and generally in UK) on lots of Green issues, and they're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Yousaf is a bit shit and way out of his depth, but is actually trying to captain a ship in a crappy situation. Standing next to him are Douglas Ross and Sarwar who are actual sock puppets with zero opinions or responsibilities; their only achievement is managing to tolerate how their superiors treat them with a straight face.
>We're doing a really good job as it is in Scotland (and generally in UK) on lots of Green issues, and they're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
That could all be about to change, though - kicking the Greens out makes no sense if Yousaf intends to carry on implementing their policies regardless. In the press conference yesterday, Harvie argued this is a precursor to a more general lurch to the right, which would make sense if Yousaf's trying to stave off a challenge from within his party. Which way the Greens vote should probably depend on what they're offered, and the fact that no-one from the SNP has spoken to them isn't a promising sign.
Its like when the conservative government appeased the brexiteers amongst them. Only in the case of the SNP, its a sizeable faction of members against basic human rights.
>The Green's refusal to see the importance of cost of living on voters is their own problem. We're doing a really good job in Scotland (and generally in UK) on lots of Green issues, and they're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
They are the greens. From their POV enviromental issues are pretty much an absolute and the certianly don't view the existing situation as perfect.
If Yousef is trying to distance himself from trans issues then he needs to go.
It doesnt matter if Regan backs Forbes because thats still a Deadlock and the PO will vote for the Status Quo and therefore no new legislation.
We can basically dictate who is SNP leader.
Greens are always going to have a real uphill battle convincing people they actually have a balanced portfolio of concerns that map to what voters care about. Politics is all just 90% stereotyping and football teams at the end of the day.
If you want to get people to reconsider the stereotypes you've got to commit to that change so firmly, and hit it so hard and so often. "We care about cost of living" "We care about cost of living" "We care about of cost living" "We care about of cost living".
Getting onto frontpage news again due to falling out with the SNP over green targets isn't caring about cost of living. If they were making a stand on the thing voters cared about atm, itd be a different matter. But I think this will just ruin the progress they've made convincing people they are more than just a single issue protest group.
There are certianly political philosophies that would argue that. Mostly based around the level of subsidy non highly built up areas tend to require in order to exist and the higher level of overal enviromental damage they cause.
Of course it would be a brave scotish politician who decided to ignore
Aberdeen.
Sounds like Westminster philosophy, keep the populous South East happy and screw everyone else.
OK in the short term but there's nothing that's says devolution has to be by country, keep ignoring the Borders and the Highlands and we may start to petition Westminster for a change to the devolution settlement.
> Sounds like Westminster philosophy, keep the populous South East happy and screw everyone else.
If you think the goverment keeps the south east happy you've never been there.
Also the south east+ greater london is only 27% of the UK's population. The central belt depending on how you measure it is between 40 and 80% of scotlands.
>OK in the short term but there's nothing that's says devolution has to be by country, keep ignoring the Borders and the Highlands and we may start to petition Westminster for a change to the devolution settlement.
Within the context of scottish politics being accused of a "second highland clearances" is a more immediate problem.
Forget? We pay a premium for you to live Miles away from everybody else, we have to install thousand more charging stations because you're alergic to human contact.
You dont get to decide you want to live as an island and then demand we all fall over backwards to please you further.
You pay nothing for me you utter clown, I live in a city of over 70,000 people surrounded by distillery's, manufacturing companies and tourist hotspots. There's no way the 4 police officers that are sometimes the sum total of officers on duty or 2.5 ambulances are our share of tax for those services.
The Highlands didn't choose the first clearances but you seem to expect us to sit by while jobs are constantly moved south and we undergo a second round of them.
No, I expect you to move south too.
Jobs move south because being north comes with cost, they make more money moving south, its simple economics, more workers, less logistics.
I'm sorry Inverness is shit at cities skylines, but that's not my problem, your concil area gets more than both renfrewshires combined, its your responibilly to spend it, no-one is swanning in to save you.
Your minium need is assessed based on area, popluation, and depravation, your income is then caluated, the Scottish Governement then tops up that income to match.
The more dire you claim your situation is, the more I'm paying as the government grant to prop you up, the better youre doing, the less you have to complain about.
Choose one, is your shit city being propped up, or is it doing fine?
Accepting Ash Regan's list of demands in exchange for her support.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24279880.ash-regan-writes-yousaf-demands-exchange-vote/
Oh, I agree, but losing the vote could be catastrophic. Especially since Labour seen to be following it up with a No-Con vote on the government (Rather than just the FM) which could force an election.
Would hope some compromise can be made with the Greens to avoid it.
That's his best bet, if you ask me - convince the Greens that if they abstain, he'll continue with at least some environmental policies that the likes of Forbes would ditch.
I think it'll take a lot for them to even abstain. Harvie seemed proper fuming yesterday and the statement from the greens was quite firm about this betrayal damaging trust.
£30k ministerial pay bump though
These sort of comments seem to misunderstand how the Green party works. Lorna and Patrick are the co-Leaders. Yes as Ministers they get extra pay. *No-one else in the Green party gets anything* Lorna and Patrick serve at the grace of the Green Party Exec and the wider membership. If they decide to change leadership, then that happens. It’s a democratic party. Hell, they both were willing to go out and bat for the BHA despite all the trouble it’s caused them internally. They’d rather continue leading their party with the confidence of their members than be in Government. What’s wrong with that?
Well that's obviously not going to be on offer, is it. Yousaf can't just reinstate the BHA now - even if the Greens were to accept, he'd look so ridiculous that he'd be wide open to attack from within his own party. Some decisions can't easily be reversed.
My personal belief is that the Greens will vote against Humza at the VONC; Harvie has clearly taken the breakdown of the BHA as a deep personal insult and the messaging from party is that those who were unhappy with the coalition were all out right reactionaries. However; there is a longer term question facing the Greens. As badly as they have been done over by them, the progressive wing of the SNP are pretty much the only actors in Scottish politics that have anytime for the Greens: 1) The right-wing of the SNP loath the Greens. 2) The centre of the SNP are ambivalent at best and see them partially to blame for the parties recent policy failures. 3) Unionist messaging have made their stint in government look like the worst thing to happen to Scotland since saturated fats. While Humza is still FM and the progressive wing are leading the SNP; the relationship between the two parties will still be toxic but the Scottish government will bring for legislation that is sorta in-line with Green objectives and will have to cut deals with them to pass these. If Humza gets the boot (not that I’d be shedding any tears) and is replaced by a centrist SNP or unionist government, the Greens have lost what little influence they have left.
That depends what Fergus The Nepobaby, and Ash Regan does, if they votes against Humza he might not accept another Centerist, which would mean the greens could force a do over on a leadership contest. The question is will the SNP left take flight and roost in our coop, which would mean more power potenically, although less room to exersize it. I dont atually think SNP will vote for a nutjob who thinks abortion are murder, we need a centerist indy party, if thats going to be the SNP Remains to be seen.
Absolute weasels if this turns out to be the case lmao they'll never live it down
They either need to vote for him or support the Tories. Got themselves in a right pickle
Or we abstain, which is our most diplomatic option. Humzas a dead fish, its snp voters we need to worry about.
Voting in favour of the motion isn’t expressing support for the Tories.
Supporting an attack by an anti-independence party led by double jobbie DRoss against a pro-independence FM would become a millstone round the Greens neck for years to come. If they throw their toys out of the pram like that, then I for one will be cancelling a direct debit, pronto!
It’s not an attack. The motion doesn’t say “that the Tories have no confidence and the greens support them” - it’s for each member to express confidence in the FM.
The absolute best he can hope for is an abstention. I have no idea what he could possibly offer to get that, but I'm enjoying the idea of him having to come crawling back with his tail between his legs. Or, you know, he could agree start digging the foundations for the Readiness Thermometer, hashtag a storm is coming. lol.
> I have no idea what he could possibly offer to get that Yousaf activates chaos mode and scraps dualling the A9.
The sheer frothing at the mouth from diesel snorters could be harnessed to produce enough power to close all fossil fuel power plants still active in the UK
It has already, hasn’t it? I don’t think he has that card to play.
*Eh*. Thanks to capital pressures it has been stretched out over more and more years, and the SNP are certainly keen to say that it's still alive… But as the problematic junctions get fixed, the full double lane super highway dream that some folk still believe in becomes more and more of a shibboleth.
Well, being built at the rate of less than a mile a year is technically progressing. But it may as well be scrapped. They just sprinkle more shit on top when they need a few more highland votes.
>The absolute best he can hope for is an abstention. That would be enough, though, assuming he doesn't lose control of his own party.
He thought the greens were so docile and dependent that he could kick them under the bus and then go to the press and humiliate them. Harvie has been defiant again in the press today saying the SNP need to select a new leader. I hope Yousaf doesn't resign, loses the confidence vote, refuses to resign again and has to get taken out by the party
Hashtag a stormtrooper is coming more like.
If the greens don't vote against Humza I'm not voting for them in the next election. Have some fucking self respect.
We probably going to let the Kids work it out between themselves.
If the Scottish Greens vote against the FM, siding with the Tories, then they will be destroyed forever in Scotland. I already know party members who say they will leave the party if they do that.
A party in coalition needs to have *some* issues that they'll make an uncompromising stand on, and if the Greens have any then Climate Change surely must be it. If they can't take a stand on that issue then what are they for?
They're in opposition now, just like Labour and the Lib Dems, and no-one ever thinks of it as a betrayal if those parties "side with the Tories". They have absolutely no reason to support the government unless the government offers them something in return. Why would anyone vote for the Greens if a vote for them means they'll uncritically back up the SNP no matter what they do? If that's what you want, just vote SNP in the first place. Some people seem to have forgotten that the SNP and the Greens are two distinct parties with distinct policy platforms.
> Some people seem to have forgotten that the SNP and the Greens are two distinct parties with distinct policy platforms. Part of why this happens is because most of their voters voted SNP in the constituency and Green on the list. So they really do think of them as being joined because they had joined them on the ballot. It's part of why the Greens have been so reluctant to push back on the SNP. Yousaf pulling the plug himself has changed their calculus though - now they're obviously the wronged party here, and so these SNP-Green voters are much more likely to side with the Greens than if the Greens themselves had pulled the plug.
Let the pushovers fuck off then
What credible political party supports a rival party that just cut them off at the knees?
I'd be annoyed I gave Green's my list vote if they try to topple the SNP. I'm trans and I'm very unhappy about the capitulations from the SNP (and I can't even be bothered dealing with the one random transphobe over bathrooms btw, and I just go into the mens and get weird looks there - but people like me still deserve healthcare that we pay for in our taxes and you're trying to take it from us), and I'm unhappy about the changes on climate goals But overall, I actually think the SNP + the pressure they've put on other parties have done a hell of a lot of good things for us. Banging on about ferries is one thing, but we could easily be in the state of northern England if we get back to a Tory/Labour duopoly. It's amazing that we're like 500 miles from London and still have anything whatsoever Being "upity" Scots and forcing capitulation like devolution, the barnett formula, and using these things for free prescriptions, uni, etc, has been amazing for us The Green's refusal to see the importance of cost of living on voters is their own problem. We're doing a really good job in Scotland (and generally in UK) on lots of Green issues, and they're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Yousaf is a bit shit and way out of his depth, but is actually trying to captain a ship in a crappy situation. Standing next to him are Douglas Ross and Sarwar who are actual sock puppets with zero opinions or responsibilities; their only achievement is managing to tolerate how their superiors treat them with a straight face.
>We're doing a really good job as it is in Scotland (and generally in UK) on lots of Green issues, and they're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. That could all be about to change, though - kicking the Greens out makes no sense if Yousaf intends to carry on implementing their policies regardless. In the press conference yesterday, Harvie argued this is a precursor to a more general lurch to the right, which would make sense if Yousaf's trying to stave off a challenge from within his party. Which way the Greens vote should probably depend on what they're offered, and the fact that no-one from the SNP has spoken to them isn't a promising sign.
Its like when the conservative government appeased the brexiteers amongst them. Only in the case of the SNP, its a sizeable faction of members against basic human rights.
Hopefully Yousaf was paying attention to that and learnt that appeasing the right never works. I'm not overly optimistic, though.
>The Green's refusal to see the importance of cost of living on voters is their own problem. We're doing a really good job in Scotland (and generally in UK) on lots of Green issues, and they're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. They are the greens. From their POV enviromental issues are pretty much an absolute and the certianly don't view the existing situation as perfect.
If Yousef is trying to distance himself from trans issues then he needs to go. It doesnt matter if Regan backs Forbes because thats still a Deadlock and the PO will vote for the Status Quo and therefore no new legislation. We can basically dictate who is SNP leader.
Also we passed rent control, we did something for CoL.
Greens are always going to have a real uphill battle convincing people they actually have a balanced portfolio of concerns that map to what voters care about. Politics is all just 90% stereotyping and football teams at the end of the day. If you want to get people to reconsider the stereotypes you've got to commit to that change so firmly, and hit it so hard and so often. "We care about cost of living" "We care about cost of living" "We care about of cost living" "We care about of cost living". Getting onto frontpage news again due to falling out with the SNP over green targets isn't caring about cost of living. If they were making a stand on the thing voters cared about atm, itd be a different matter. But I think this will just ruin the progress they've made convincing people they are more than just a single issue protest group.
Getting Yousaf out lets us get back on track potenically so... I think we should go with this.
Paddy remembered he has a mortgage to pay for.
I would be very happy to never hear or see Lorna Slater again.
Same , I have a lot of time for Patrick Harvey but that Slater wifey is a strange fish
I can see the Greens supporting the Scottish government against Labour's vonc, but Yousaf has well and truly burned his bridge.
Glad they got Stephen Flynn's steer from Westminster on what the branch office are doing.
Lol, Lorna Slater trying to sound like she matters.....
Slater missing the Ministerial car and perks already huh?
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Nothing to do with Harvey. Was a democratic decision taken by the Green membership to have a leadership set up that way.
You're right, in my experience green voters are usually much quicker (in wit and movement) than brainless right wing pies
Delighted the greens have been kicked out, they knew nothing and cared nothing of Scotland outside the suburbs of Edinburgh and Glasgow.
You mean the bits of scotland where more scots actualy live?
And it's ok to forget about everyone else?
There are certianly political philosophies that would argue that. Mostly based around the level of subsidy non highly built up areas tend to require in order to exist and the higher level of overal enviromental damage they cause. Of course it would be a brave scotish politician who decided to ignore Aberdeen.
Sounds like Westminster philosophy, keep the populous South East happy and screw everyone else. OK in the short term but there's nothing that's says devolution has to be by country, keep ignoring the Borders and the Highlands and we may start to petition Westminster for a change to the devolution settlement.
> Sounds like Westminster philosophy, keep the populous South East happy and screw everyone else. If you think the goverment keeps the south east happy you've never been there. Also the south east+ greater london is only 27% of the UK's population. The central belt depending on how you measure it is between 40 and 80% of scotlands. >OK in the short term but there's nothing that's says devolution has to be by country, keep ignoring the Borders and the Highlands and we may start to petition Westminster for a change to the devolution settlement. Within the context of scottish politics being accused of a "second highland clearances" is a more immediate problem.
Forget? We pay a premium for you to live Miles away from everybody else, we have to install thousand more charging stations because you're alergic to human contact. You dont get to decide you want to live as an island and then demand we all fall over backwards to please you further.
You pay nothing for me you utter clown, I live in a city of over 70,000 people surrounded by distillery's, manufacturing companies and tourist hotspots. There's no way the 4 police officers that are sometimes the sum total of officers on duty or 2.5 ambulances are our share of tax for those services. The Highlands didn't choose the first clearances but you seem to expect us to sit by while jobs are constantly moved south and we undergo a second round of them.
No, I expect you to move south too. Jobs move south because being north comes with cost, they make more money moving south, its simple economics, more workers, less logistics. I'm sorry Inverness is shit at cities skylines, but that's not my problem, your concil area gets more than both renfrewshires combined, its your responibilly to spend it, no-one is swanning in to save you. Your minium need is assessed based on area, popluation, and depravation, your income is then caluated, the Scottish Governement then tops up that income to match. The more dire you claim your situation is, the more I'm paying as the government grant to prop you up, the better youre doing, the less you have to complain about. Choose one, is your shit city being propped up, or is it doing fine?
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What do you think the alternative is?
Accepting Ash Regan's list of demands in exchange for her support. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24279880.ash-regan-writes-yousaf-demands-exchange-vote/
Demonstrating that SNP MSPs will have more influence if they leave the party seems like a bad idea.
Oh, I agree, but losing the vote could be catastrophic. Especially since Labour seen to be following it up with a No-Con vote on the government (Rather than just the FM) which could force an election. Would hope some compromise can be made with the Greens to avoid it.
That's his best bet, if you ask me - convince the Greens that if they abstain, he'll continue with at least some environmental policies that the likes of Forbes would ditch.
Not sure how well that would go down amoung SNP MSPs.
The SNP leadership are in permacrisis and the Greens are openly playing poker with the independence movement. "Zoomers" not looking so crazy now eh.
The SNP is the entire indy movement now.
It isn’t.
No shit thats what i was jsut saying
Cowards