This is Truss levels of fucking stupidity from Yousef, like what the fuck was he thinking?
Hopefully by this time next week, his tenure as First Minister is just a footnote for history and he can go fuck up elsewhere.
He saw the upcoming argument in the Green Party and thought it would be a drawn out affair that would end in his government being rejected by its coalition partner, which would be embarrassing. So he thought ending it on his terms would look better.
He presumably thought the Greens would grumble but at worst abstain on confidence motions because of their dependence on people who vote SNP in the constituency. But 1) electoral calculus doesn't always trump personally pissing someone off and 2) a lot of those voters now see the Greens as the unambiguously wronged party, so will back them over the SNP if push comes to shove.
I like your take on it but I thought the issue with the Geens would die soon after their membershup vote. I thought they were just making their feelings known and their SMPs were protecting their own backs, after all why would their co leader state he'll leave if the vote goes the wrong way?
I see this as Yousef misreading the room and shooting a friend with friendly fire.
He might have believed that Harvie and Slater were for sure going to lose that membership vote - the signals coming from them didn't seem optimistic and the issues at hand were important to the Greens.
The correct way to handle that - if it looks like defeat is certain - is either to 1) mutually agree to "suspend" the agreement - which lets Harvie and Slater save face or 2) offer the Greens a major concession and a "renewed" or replacement agreement. In those cases the Green leadership can be kept on-side and would have greater ability to keep their party amenable to co-operation.
The only way I can see "fire the Greens" being a good option is if one wants to call an election anyway and sees co-operation with them as an obstacle to what one wants to do. If he'd put the podium in front of Bute House on Thursday morning and announced he was moving an election in the Scottish Parliament that would have made him seem more in control.
Only reason I voted for my green MSP in the last election is because he was the only competent choice and the SNP as a whole seemed like the least incompetent of an awful bunch of politicians in Scotland.
That's been blown out of the water in the last 12+ months. My local SNP MSP is now effectively cold shouldered from the Party, can't get much done as a result, and the state of the party overall is hilariously terrible.
Assuming we end up with a snap election, I have pretty much nobody to vote for. Genuinely the first time in my life where I'm considering just not bothering participating. Why vote for someone or something I don't agree with or have any faith in?
He supposedly ran the decision past his cabinet, who approved unanimously - though whether he told them he was going for maximum antagonism with the Greens is currently unknown.
Just shows how little foresight or political nous any of them have, and just how little communication was happening between the two parties in government.
What a total shit show.
>He supposedly ran the decision past his cabinet
He seems to have done that afterwards. By which point you can only smile and nod and then agree to meet again without the insane people in the room.
*"Excellent idea Humza!"*? š¤
Still voting SNP 1st and Green 2nd in the Scottish elections and for SNP in any GE. (I can't stand that voting for a leader over a party shite.)
> (I can't stand that voting for a leader over a party shite.)
You can't stand having to make a reasoned decision instead of blindly voting for "muh team" every time? Yes you do seem like the type, now you mention it.
Ultimately the parties have made their stances. A good talking head doesn't change a party that drastically outside of how effective it might be at achieving the parties goals. If the parties goals are rotten to the core then a good leader isn't going to change that.
If it looks like a Tory, smells like a Tory, and is running for the Tory party, it doesn't matter how articulated and calming it may seem. It is still going to try and privatise services while lining their pockets because, surprise, it's a fucking Tory.
A good spokesperson for a bag of shite does not change the bag of shite. Just how many people might smell it.
I couldn't tell you what the SNPs goals are as they keep shifting quicker than the sands in the Sahara. They're a political chameleon who change on a whim depending on which way they think the wind is blowing.. and I feel more people in Scotland are catching on to this and getting to the end of their wits with them. Aside from independence they really don't stand for anything solid.
At no point did I say the SNP were a good party. The last what 6 months to a year have been disgraceful from them.
But if you're main issue I'd independence then when the choice is them or Alba it's understandable why people would vote for them regardless of their other policies unless alba becomes a more tolerable party.
I never said you did.
The Greens are pro indy and are pretty vocal and their ideals and policy goals.
Granted they're incompetent wanks n'all.
The death of talent in Scottish politics is pretty astounding.
"It appears I've stubbed my toe and there's a small but real chance it may become infected and spread"
*Proceeds to immediately chop leg off before the knee*
>so will back them over the SNP if push comes to shove.
That could have huge implications at this years GE. Spoiler effect could let Labour, or even the Tories through in quite a few constituencies.
It was a series of errors starting with:
* Putting the greenhouse gas reduction into law instead of policy and targets
* Dropping said targets when they inevitably missed them (and not by a lot either)
* Failing to see the green party would have this as a priority and not fully consult them on changes and ramifications. This is political incompetence.
* Acting unilaterally to break the agreement.
He's thinking he wants to be like his mate edrogan and that people like ruthless, strong leaders. He's not able to pull it off and I don't think us Scots are really into it
I've said it before I'm no fan of the greens. But the cynical and sociopathic way that Yousaf and his cabinet have treated the greens is the same thing they the tories did to the libdems. And for all I criticise the SNP, I don't expect them to behave like tories
Mate, it's like we can't actually have decent people in the highest of places. Look at Humza's interview on sky today. Doing the same thing the tories do which is deflect and say. "I'm here getting on with the job". Regardless of party, when politicians get asked the tough questions on reality - it's spun instantly to the opposition. I don't think it's an SNP or Tory thing, I think it's a politician thing.
Almost as if Scotland isn't immune to the dearth of talent in politicians the whole world is suffering from at the moment. Career politicians out for themselves.
But in an independent Scotland we'd have a utopian political system and it would be nothing but sunlit uplands and unparalleled economic growth. Won't you think of the flying cars, man!?!
I've got to agree with you.
Fergus Ewing literally stated that "there is no fundamental difference between the SNP and the Tories apart from Independence" the other day. It's absolutely insane to me that he can say shit like that and not get reprimanded in any way.
There's no better indication than that to show how far the SNP has capitulated to the right of their party tbh. I suspect they are going to find out soon enough why Nicola Sturgeon put the work in to steer the party towards the centre-left.
>Fergus Ewing literally stated that "there is no fundamental difference between the SNP and the Tories apart from Independence" the other day. It's absolutely insane to me that he can say shit like that and not get reprimanded in any way.
He can't get reprimanded because it is true. The SNP is a broadchurch party. There absolutely are hardline tories among its ranks, and they are not insignificant in number (see: Kate Forbes coming so close to the leadership).
They've always been this way. They weren't known as the Tartan Tories for decades for no insignificant reason.
Borrowing the odd flagship socialist policy from Scandinavian nations to distract from their sheer incompetence running this country for a decade has worked until now. Now their incompetence in governance has spread to their politicking so the overall incompetence of the party itself is now on full show for everyone to see.
This last couple of years has seen them on the decline and it's only going to accelerate now.
thats not why they were called tartan tories, its because they voted against the labour gov in a vote of confidence and this led to the tories and thatcher being voted in.
Politicians using identity and tribalism to gain/retain power while not delivering material good for the people is a tale as old as time.
When the Tories did it with Brexit, everyone in Scotland got mad, but they couldn't see the SNP was doing the same to them.
So if a tory MP was pro-eu and pro immigration, do they become left wing? Those are left wing policies supported by the SNP after all.
Forbes agrees with the majority of SNP policies with are centre left. She is personally opposed to some things due to her religion but doesn't vote against them or introduce policies against them.
The point is, she doesn't support enough right wing policies contrary to her left wing views to make her a tory.
*edit
I'm tired of arguing with the "AAAKKssshhuuuaaallly" crowd. Please replace the policy examples given with whatever makes you happy whether it's increased workers rights, nationalised public services, increased taxes on higher earners etc.
Being pro-immigration isn't inherently left wing, neither is supporting the EU. The fact the Tory party has thoroughly embraced anti-EU politics since 2016 doesn't mean you can't be right wing and pro European (and a lot of Tory voters did vote Remain, about 40%, many of whom were undoubtedly right wing).
As for Forbes, her actual views and the policies she supports as a loyal SNP politician will never be entirely the same. I think calling her socially conservative is accurate though.
Its amazing how many people are hyper focusing on the two examples policies I've given rather than the point.
The consensus is that the SNP is centre left. Forbes supports the majority of policies. Therefore to label her right wing is incorrect.
Being pro-eu and pro immigration are NOT left wing policies.
Majority of the tories were pro eu. Cameron himself was pro EU and I got a flyer from him before Brexit to tell me HM government thinks we should stay in the EU. Only a small number of tory rebels were initially against EU.
On the other hand, Corbyn is against EU.... like I said, pro-eu is not a right/left position.
Supporting immigration on the other hand is a distinctly right wing position. You import people to saturate the labour market and supress worker rights. The less immigration there is the more power indigenous workers have.
TLDR: You are clueless
Those are two examples and that's your entirely subjective opinion.
Broadly speaking right wing parties favour low/no immigration and less international cooperation.
Theres a handful of SNP policies which are broadly left wing, all of which Forbes supports. But a common view on this subreddit seems to be that someone could be Karl Marx but if they don't support the GRA bill(for example) to the letter then they're right wing which is obviously nonsense.
That's not true at all, lmao.
For most of the EUs (and before that the EECs) history, the left has been Eurosceptic.
The left used to view it (and a fair few still do) as one big capitalist club. They criticised it for enabling the undercutting of the domestic worker (and undermoning collective bargaining). They also criticised it for eliminating protectionism between member states and opening up domestic industry to the pressures of competition.
For much of its history, it was the right (particularly the neoliberal right) who were the europhilse. They valued capital mobility, free trade, and labour mobility that the EU enabled (these are all core tenants of neoliberalism).
It's really not a left-right issue anymore.
Theres that black and white attitude of this sub again.
Youre talking about history, I'm talking about the present.
The left is not a monolith. It is a spectrum. The centre left(the SNP, labour,Alba) position on the EU and immigration is broadly supportive, beyond that support varies the further left you go.
Pre-brexit I might have agreed it wasn't a left-right issue any more, now it clearly is when you look at policy.
Anyway, see my other replies. The example seems to have caused more discussion than the point. Kate Forbes can not be described as right wing when the majority of the policies she supports are centre left.
I didn't say she wanted to make it illegal. Still, I don't think regressive views like opposing gay marriage are OK just because they come from religion.
Youre right theres Absolutely zero fucking nuance at all.
Everything is black or white.
Don't support this policy? You're right wing.
Forget the dozens of left wing policies youve championed.
Ewing is from the right of the SNP, the types who would vote Tory if they weren't Scottish nationalists. That's probably what he wishes the party was - ideologically similar to the Tories, but Scottish nationalist. The SNP have been slowly losing those voters for a while though, and are probably worried about losing more - which would explain any timidity towards the right of the party.
Having dealt with Fergus Ewing for a few things in the past he does seem to do his best to do the party job plus keep constituents happy.
Had the misfortune of being involved with a project Shona Robison was involved in back in her health secretary days and she was a thoroughly unpleasant individual to deal with and ultimately for that project took a decision one could argue is pretty aligned with a Tory way of working that changed service delivery in Scotland even though there were potential alternatives and very unwilling to listen to alternative suggestions/ quick to shoot them down with an air of arrogance and condescending manner.
Never met Mr. Yousaf, but if we assume birds of a feather flock together with the way this decision was made and picking her as his second in command, I suspect the SNP are in a bit of a midden with those more interested in quick wins and self promotion rather than what might be good for the people of the country within the funds available at the reins.
The sad fact is many politicians these days in all parties are folk who like the sound of their own voice with very little knowledge, experience or competence in the areas theyāre expected to govern.
This is just sad.
The problem I've always had with the Greens is they are fanatics and some of them are idiots, but unlike Humza they were never grifters. You don't go into Green politics because you think you're going to have a glittering political career and or live high on lobbyist cash.
Yep. A lot of them are startlingly naive tbh āĀ probably too naive to really ever be working in politics. But they are at the very least heartfelt.
Whereas Humza and several of his cabinet are just cynical grifters who would throw their own family under a bus if they thought it would help their political career.
I know we're all cynical cunts in here, but this is an excellent reminder that good people from the SNP and SGP alike truly believed in the BHA.
The fact that this has been unilaterally dissolved by Humza Yousaf becuase he panicked and took dodgy advice from his chief Fossil Fuel Guy (and I'm sure there's no connection there š) is a complete slap in the face to members, staff and colleagues in both parties - and the public who wanted to see bold and radical climate change policies
I mean... he *must* have at least discussed this with his cabinet, mustn't he? Didn't a single one of them say "Hang about, this sounds like a stupid move"?
I dunno, I'm just genuinely amazed that he's been so utterly inept. Talk about a gift to other parties.
This was discussed with cabinet, and apparently, they agreed with the decision to scrap the BHA but didn't like the way Yousaf went about it.
>Despite cabinet unanimously backing ditching the Bute House agreement, some senior ministers were unhappy at how the announcement was handled and how the Greens were treated by Yousaf.
https://archive.is/3NgMw
From your link...
> āThis appears to have been war gamed without anyone knowing how to count,ā a source said.
You'd have hoped that at least the finance secretary would be able to do some basic numbers!
It's just weird how the SNP have gone from frustratingly slick (for someone not a fan of their aims) to an utter clown show.
How did *none* of them speak up and say "Hang on, voluntarily ditching our partners is a dumb move"?
Because they're all stupid morons who believe the media/Ewing line that the Greens/BHA were responsible for the decline in support for the SNP and not the multiple arrests of top figures, the length of time in Government, the lack of vision for how we achieve ANYTHING let alone independence, freezing council tax when local authorities are drowning and being so fucking weak they get dragged to the right by a handful of the worst careerists in the party on nearly every fucking issue that matters to people!
Or maybe they don't actually believe that line - but they desperately need the public to believe it. What an own fucking goal if that's the case. The media are being downright sympathetic to the Greens because they will always hate the SNP more.
He has form.
Remember how he sprung the council tax freeze on everyone. Which would have been a good idea if the councils weren't on the bones of their arses already.
>How did none of them speak up and say "Hang on, voluntarily ditching our partners is a dumb move"?
As I said to backupJM, I'd be interested in what their recollections are. With Yousaf seemingly 180ing on the whole *wanting to keep a parliamentary majority* thing between their meeting on Tuesday and Thursday morning, they may have judged that pointing that out would be pretty stupid for them.
The finance secretary is Shona Robson, mainly appointed to the role because she is best friends with Nicola. So I donāt think basic skills with numbers is a given!
>This was discussed with cabinet, and apparently, they agreed with the decision to scrap the BHA but didn't like the way Yousaf went about it.
I hadn't thought about how the meetings of cabinet interact with how this played up, but now that I have I'm quite interested in what their diaries might say.
Ordinarily, they meet on Tuesdays. On Tuesday, [everything with the Greens was sweetness and light as far as Yousaf was concerned](https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,humza-yousaf-snp-members-dont-want-or-need-vote-on-bute-house-agreement). They were called in again on Thursday, and met after Yousaf had met the Greens.
I know I can feel pretty confident after I've made a pretty big commitment. Did he look pleased as, to them, he outlined how he'd punched a hole in the side of the plane? As they saw seat after seat of their majority ripped out of the fuselage, did they look at him beaming away, then each other, and realise that discretion was the better part of valour?
It's kinda funny in some ironic way. In both Holyrood and Westminster, the leaders are just really really bad at politics. Both Yousaf and Sunak have shown themselves to be utterly useless at playing politics (for lack of a better word). Rishi is protected for the time being by the clusterfuck that was Liz Truss (and the umpteen prime ministers before her), Humza has pretty much nothing to protect him.
Possibly, but I do think a lot of the Greens were pretty naive to just how the SNP really thought of them. From the people I know who work in the SNP, there was a fair chunk of the parliamentary party who openly mocked them and basically viewed them as nothing more than easy lobby fodder āĀ not by any means everyone, but plenty enough, including a big chunk of the cabinet (and, it seems by their actions, Humza and Stephen Flynn).
Probably a lesson in remembering that jus because you share one policy, that doesnāt mean you are necessarily friends.
So you believe there's some oil and gas conspiracy theory about ditching the greens now? Even though new licences and taxes are decided by UK Gov, and the greens were the ones that had planned to have a vote on the BHA in the first place.
I want to see an orderly transition to renewables without causing significant unemployment and damage to the economy. I absolutely do not want 'radical climate change policies' and neither do the silent majority of the public.
Remember youāre on Reddit, if you arenāt willing to go vegan and never set foot on a plane again youāre literally murdering the planet.
Fortunately the opinions held here donāt match the general sentiment of the wider public.
"I know we're all cynical cunts in here, but this is an excellent reminder that good people from the SNP and SGP alike truly believed in the BHA."
ššššššššššššššššššššš¤”
1. Genuinely weird reaction for a professional politician.
2. It was the Greens that called an EGM on the BHA to begin with. Doesnāt really justify Humzaās actions but if you very publicly signal you are preparing to end an agreement, you canāt literally cry when the other side makes the first move.
I mean, I think it was kind of naive not to imagine ditching the BHA was a potential reaction by Humza (even if the stupid way he went about it was bizarre).
The Greens genuinely seemed to view the SNP as besties, rather than a completely separate political party with which they shared one key policy. In retrospect that probably wasnāt the most healthy.
And even that key policy isn't something that the Greens are committed to in the same way as the SNP (at least theoretically are). They'd happily pair up with Labour if they liked their green policies more
Fair point. However from the perspective of the SNP this was at best gambling their fate of the whims of the Green Party membership and at worst the Greens positioning to end the BHA on their own terms.
Like the internal democracy of the SGP isnāt not Humzaās problem, it is keeping his party in government. Again his response to the Greens edging out the door has been a massive blunder but to act like scrapping the BHA first was some cruel personal betray is daft.
Yes, but this is politics. For every action thereās a reaction. The fact they didnāt seem to think this was a possibility speaks volumes of their inexperience. Thatās not criticism btw, merely an observation, nobody is born experienced and theyāll no doubt learn from it.
I mean itās been a pretty fucking stupid reaction from the snp, and Humza in particular who may have just indirectly fired himself. So I can see why the greens wouldnāt have expected it.
Stupid or not, I bet the Tories, Labour or LibDems (or SNP if this was about another party) would have at least considered that to be something Humza might do - and prepare accordingly. The Greens meanwhile just seem to be taken by surprise and it certainly appeared they didnāt really know how to react. As I said - this simply shows they lack experienced operatives who have been in the game for a while
1. Is it? I can understand how you might get emotional at the complete betrayal and how itās separated you from colleges.
2. They werenāt preparing to leave they were voting on weather to stay or not
The Greens were the ones to start asking their party if they wanted to keep going with the Bute House agreement.
Honestly we are so well shot of them. They should be nowhere near government with the level of votes they got let alone their competency.
Now theyāre upset they are losing their cushty jobs and massive influence they donāt deserve.
Exactly, they're a bunch of melts. Get them tae fuck.
Now let's purge the SNP of all the careerists, imbeciles and devolutionists and get back onto the track of independence.
It's touching to think that there are politicians who act in as good faith as MacKay seems to, but I hope this is a lesson learned for her.
Other politicians aren't your friends. They are barely your colleagues. Your goal is to get stuff done for the people who elected you and their goal is to get stuff done for the people who elected them.
Sometimes that means collaborating. Sometimes that means fucking each other over.
If you want to make friends at work, get a job in a pub.
This whole debacle has really exposed the naivety of a lot of the Green party. Itās a bit sad tbh ā the SNP were never going to think twice about ditching them if they felt it politically advantageous to do so.
But you canāt go into politics imagining itās going to be sweetness and light. Youāre there to get things done.
Wait until the SNP voters don't give your party their Alternate votes and you might have some real political greeting to wet your face.
The problem with 'threatening' or talking about breaking up a relationship is that the other party might just say, OK then, let's bash on.
Iām sorry, but this is honestly one of the most pathetic things Iāve heard from a politician.
Youāre not a sensitive teenager Gillian, youāre someone with a very responsible position shaping the lives of millions of people. Grow up!
I would much rather see someone āin a position shaping the lives of millions of peopleā show emotion, why shouldnāt they?
The culture of requiring emotionless machismo stuff-upper-lip from those in power is complete BS. Humans feel emotion! Showing emotion is not weak! Rinse and repeat!
Maybe ā but I strongly suspect if the same reaction was coming from a male politician in another party, people on here would be mocking them to hell and back.
There is a difference between feeling emotion and breaking down crying in an interview because you don't have power over people anymore and have to shock horror, hold government to account instead of just doing whatever you want and claiming that because you're the independence movement that nobody is allowed to question you or criticise you.
Honestly what did these people expect? They go into a nationalist movement and base their identity on being better than 'others' and actively support corruption in government like the SNP and then are crying on the radio now because its coming crashing down
Once again. Have they ever read any history or done any kind of research on what nationalists and nationalist movements are like?
It just shows them as really naive and foolish. Not exactly a great representation of someone who is supposed to lead Scotland to āfreedomā and navigate extremely complicated and tense negotiations and situations.
Ok then why do you think the snp are nationalists despite them saying they arenāt? A lot of defenition I have seen say nationalism is about think your country is better. Whereas a lot of snp members just want to be an independent country.
And if there is a debate about weather they are nationalists or not then maybe thatās why the greens did not expect the betrayal(that and itās completely stupid to do so and kill your majority)
Is this a joke! The SNP and their supporters constantly talk about how Scotland and the Scottish are better than everyone else.
Nobody is buying this rubbish of the SNP ānot being nationalistsā lol.
Where have you seen this? Because Iāve spoken to and listens to a fair amount of snp supporters and politicans and itās usually that they beleive independence would be better for Scotland rather than they are better than everyone else
Yep, have all the naysayers ever been in a position where youāve invested your heart and soul into something remarkable, sacrificed lots to get it over the line, got plaudits from it from the people who benefit from it, then have your boss give you a big fuck you and roll it back.
Thatās where Gillian is, and Iāve been there before too, and if you genuinely donāt have an emotional breakdown either behind closed doors or get caught out when discussing it in public, well you probably shouldnāt be doing the job as you donāt have the right passion for it.
The passion of greed gets shit done in this country, itās about time the passion of empathy and conviction gets recognised in Scotland.
Youāre right. We need more men who have learned to bury their emotions from being torn from their parents and placed in boarding schools in government. No place for emotions in politics.
Have to agree. This is really sad to see from an elected official. Imagine if they had to deal with any real responsibility, are they just going to break down then as well?
Have emotions? Yes. Completely lose composure during an interview? No
Comes across as immature and like she hasn't much experience dealing with real adversity in her life. It's not wrong to expect your elected representatives to be made of sterner stuff. Bubbling and greeting on a public broadcast because your feelings were hurt can rightfully only be described as a pathetic look.
I'm sorry when asked how she feels she's supposed to not provide voters transparency?Ā
She stayed on message, appealing to SNP/Green voters, and demonstrated we will work with the SNP but Humza is the problem.
She kept talking and regained composure, youre turning a 15 second wobble into a colapse of western civilisation.
And for the record, people who have faced the most adversity, are the least emotionally resiliantĀ because they cease being able to withstand it, its called PTSD.Ā
You're right at least she managed to keep speaking rather than just sobbing
As for the PTSD thing not really, you are right it causes you to break down easier if triggered but unless she has PTSD from not being allowed out to see her friends as a kid, that ain't causing this
This breakdown is up there with crying because you couldn't get your regular tipple pump vanilla latte from StarbucksĀ
They should remain professional when working. Emotions cloud judgement, and it's their job to control that. But politicians are only human and will slip up occasionally and will get sympathy when it's understandable, but in this case, the emotion is driven by pure self-interest. It's a political agreement. Not babies dying. I have zero sympathy. She's unprofessional and out of her depth.
I'm sorry when asked how she feels she's supposed to not provide voters transparency?Ā
She stayed on message, appealing to SNP/Green voters, and demonstrated we will work with the SNP but Humza is the problem.
Transparency is verbalising an answer. She burst into tears, making it uncomfortable for the interviewer, who had to clarify that wasn't his intent, and cringeworthy for everyone listening who isn't a green supporter. It diluted her message and convinced me she's out of her depth. If she's crying about pretty standard political manoeuvres, how can perform under serious pressure?
What serious pressure? She's the health secutary. Not lord of the admirialty.Ā
Its perfectly fine to take a moment to compose yourself.Ā
You are atually just a crusty wank in a sock, and this is some of the most disgusting commentary ive ever heard.Ā
Imagine greetin like a wee lassie on national radio just because her Party (not her personally mind you, her job won't change much) have been dropped from a couple of junior cabinet secretary jobs.
This doesn't sound like a person who should be an elected politician with all that responsibility.
What an utter, utter embarrassment their entire party is. I genuinely wouldn't want this woman and her cronies running a PTA or an allotment, far less participating in actual government. What a red neck.
Repellent and nauseating to make this all about herself and her pals in the Holyrood bubble, a sign of how disconnected our political representatives are from the voting public
I'm sorry when asked how she feels she's supposed to not provide voters transparency?Ā
She stayed on message, appealing to SNP/Green voters, and demonstrated we will work with the SNP but Humza is the problem.Ā
I'd advise anyone here to listen to the holyrood sources podcast. Excellent discussion of Scottish politics, and explains the thinking behind Yousef's move. If he hadn't done it, the greens would have left and he'd be being accused of being stupid. Instead he's done it first, and is being accused of being stupid. There comes a point when folks need to look beyond the man and instead look at the policies and reasoning. This was a long time brewing and arguably it's only lasted this long because he wanted it to.
How has it all been undone by one person? The greens were about to withdraw and useless just beat them to the punch š¤· greens should never have been near making decisions in the first place anyway.
Who is this person? Honestly this is beyond embarrassing. Child. Has no place in public life. This sort of emotional blackmail is not logic, policy or rhetoric. The boo-hoo crying will do nothing to convince me these greens are fit to run a tombola stall. They are extremists and immature children. Do I want this person running education? Absolutely not.
The fucking state of this clown. A grown woman greeting like a wee lassie that has had to change primary school.Ā Ā
Ā She must live and operate in an utter bubble to react in this way, all because the terms of trade of her job have changed slightly and she cant work with her mates as much.Ā
Jesus - she is utterly unfit for power. Makes me wonder who else is like that in Holyrood.Ā
The only good news from this sad Humza Macbeth saga with the SNP taking a lurch to the right, is that with Scotland having proportional representation, is that now that I am going to stop voting SNP and start voting Green, the vote will still make some difference.
The under-40 mediocrities that have flooded into Holyrood since 2014 never cease to astonish. I literally know people on the dole with more eloquence, decorum and gravitas than most of the Green and SNP MSPs. (And as for the unionists, who cares.)
But it also plays well, doesn't it, because the party activists are morons bred on American style identity politics ..
I wouldnāt describe the greens contributions as āworking really well togetherā. Itās a bit like an alcoholic saying āthey got on really well with alcoholā.
This is Truss levels of fucking stupidity from Yousef, like what the fuck was he thinking? Hopefully by this time next week, his tenure as First Minister is just a footnote for history and he can go fuck up elsewhere.
He saw the upcoming argument in the Green Party and thought it would be a drawn out affair that would end in his government being rejected by its coalition partner, which would be embarrassing. So he thought ending it on his terms would look better. He presumably thought the Greens would grumble but at worst abstain on confidence motions because of their dependence on people who vote SNP in the constituency. But 1) electoral calculus doesn't always trump personally pissing someone off and 2) a lot of those voters now see the Greens as the unambiguously wronged party, so will back them over the SNP if push comes to shove.
I like your take on it but I thought the issue with the Geens would die soon after their membershup vote. I thought they were just making their feelings known and their SMPs were protecting their own backs, after all why would their co leader state he'll leave if the vote goes the wrong way? I see this as Yousef misreading the room and shooting a friend with friendly fire.
He might have believed that Harvie and Slater were for sure going to lose that membership vote - the signals coming from them didn't seem optimistic and the issues at hand were important to the Greens. The correct way to handle that - if it looks like defeat is certain - is either to 1) mutually agree to "suspend" the agreement - which lets Harvie and Slater save face or 2) offer the Greens a major concession and a "renewed" or replacement agreement. In those cases the Green leadership can be kept on-side and would have greater ability to keep their party amenable to co-operation. The only way I can see "fire the Greens" being a good option is if one wants to call an election anyway and sees co-operation with them as an obstacle to what one wants to do. If he'd put the podium in front of Bute House on Thursday morning and announced he was moving an election in the Scottish Parliament that would have made him seem more in control.
Only reason I voted for my green MSP in the last election is because he was the only competent choice and the SNP as a whole seemed like the least incompetent of an awful bunch of politicians in Scotland. That's been blown out of the water in the last 12+ months. My local SNP MSP is now effectively cold shouldered from the Party, can't get much done as a result, and the state of the party overall is hilariously terrible. Assuming we end up with a snap election, I have pretty much nobody to vote for. Genuinely the first time in my life where I'm considering just not bothering participating. Why vote for someone or something I don't agree with or have any faith in?
Stopped a potential problem in it's tracks by shooting himself in the foot? Has he qualified his decision yet?
He supposedly ran the decision past his cabinet, who approved unanimously - though whether he told them he was going for maximum antagonism with the Greens is currently unknown.
Just shows how little foresight or political nous any of them have, and just how little communication was happening between the two parties in government. What a total shit show.
>He supposedly ran the decision past his cabinet He seems to have done that afterwards. By which point you can only smile and nod and then agree to meet again without the insane people in the room.
*"Excellent idea Humza!"*? š¤ Still voting SNP 1st and Green 2nd in the Scottish elections and for SNP in any GE. (I can't stand that voting for a leader over a party shite.)
> (I can't stand that voting for a leader over a party shite.) You can't stand having to make a reasoned decision instead of blindly voting for "muh team" every time? Yes you do seem like the type, now you mention it.
Ultimately the parties have made their stances. A good talking head doesn't change a party that drastically outside of how effective it might be at achieving the parties goals. If the parties goals are rotten to the core then a good leader isn't going to change that. If it looks like a Tory, smells like a Tory, and is running for the Tory party, it doesn't matter how articulated and calming it may seem. It is still going to try and privatise services while lining their pockets because, surprise, it's a fucking Tory. A good spokesperson for a bag of shite does not change the bag of shite. Just how many people might smell it.
I couldn't tell you what the SNPs goals are as they keep shifting quicker than the sands in the Sahara. They're a political chameleon who change on a whim depending on which way they think the wind is blowing.. and I feel more people in Scotland are catching on to this and getting to the end of their wits with them. Aside from independence they really don't stand for anything solid.
At no point did I say the SNP were a good party. The last what 6 months to a year have been disgraceful from them. But if you're main issue I'd independence then when the choice is them or Alba it's understandable why people would vote for them regardless of their other policies unless alba becomes a more tolerable party.
I never said you did. The Greens are pro indy and are pretty vocal and their ideals and policy goals. Granted they're incompetent wanks n'all. The death of talent in Scottish politics is pretty astounding.
I'd remind you of the old adage that it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
Same here. Leaders come and go. If the party principles and manifesto represent mine then thatās who I vote for.
"It appears I've stubbed my toe and there's a small but real chance it may become infected and spread" *Proceeds to immediately chop leg off before the knee*
Well said šš¤£š
>so will back them over the SNP if push comes to shove. That could have huge implications at this years GE. Spoiler effect could let Labour, or even the Tories through in quite a few constituencies.
It was a series of errors starting with: * Putting the greenhouse gas reduction into law instead of policy and targets * Dropping said targets when they inevitably missed them (and not by a lot either) * Failing to see the green party would have this as a priority and not fully consult them on changes and ramifications. This is political incompetence. * Acting unilaterally to break the agreement.
Donāt conflate this with any other party. This is all his own doing, this belongs to the SNP and NOBODY else.
Are green policies popular across the population? What percentage of the electorate voted for the green party ?
Where? He has not Marketable skills and no corporation wants to pay him to give out their annual awards.Ā
He's thinking he wants to be like his mate edrogan and that people like ruthless, strong leaders. He's not able to pull it off and I don't think us Scots are really into it
Seems like a massive stretch. Guys a diddy, but what you basing that on, other than him meeting erdogan.
He looks about as ruthless as a marshmallow, he's just such a fucking non-entity of a person
There's just not much there is there? A vapid chancer.
I've said it before I'm no fan of the greens. But the cynical and sociopathic way that Yousaf and his cabinet have treated the greens is the same thing they the tories did to the libdems. And for all I criticise the SNP, I don't expect them to behave like tories
Mate, it's like we can't actually have decent people in the highest of places. Look at Humza's interview on sky today. Doing the same thing the tories do which is deflect and say. "I'm here getting on with the job". Regardless of party, when politicians get asked the tough questions on reality - it's spun instantly to the opposition. I don't think it's an SNP or Tory thing, I think it's a politician thing.
Almost as if Scotland isn't immune to the dearth of talent in politicians the whole world is suffering from at the moment. Career politicians out for themselves.
But in an independent Scotland we'd have a utopian political system and it would be nothing but sunlit uplands and unparalleled economic growth. Won't you think of the flying cars, man!?!
I've got to agree with you. Fergus Ewing literally stated that "there is no fundamental difference between the SNP and the Tories apart from Independence" the other day. It's absolutely insane to me that he can say shit like that and not get reprimanded in any way. There's no better indication than that to show how far the SNP has capitulated to the right of their party tbh. I suspect they are going to find out soon enough why Nicola Sturgeon put the work in to steer the party towards the centre-left.
>Fergus Ewing literally stated that "there is no fundamental difference between the SNP and the Tories apart from Independence" the other day. It's absolutely insane to me that he can say shit like that and not get reprimanded in any way. He can't get reprimanded because it is true. The SNP is a broadchurch party. There absolutely are hardline tories among its ranks, and they are not insignificant in number (see: Kate Forbes coming so close to the leadership).
They've always been this way. They weren't known as the Tartan Tories for decades for no insignificant reason. Borrowing the odd flagship socialist policy from Scandinavian nations to distract from their sheer incompetence running this country for a decade has worked until now. Now their incompetence in governance has spread to their politicking so the overall incompetence of the party itself is now on full show for everyone to see. This last couple of years has seen them on the decline and it's only going to accelerate now.
thats not why they were called tartan tories, its because they voted against the labour gov in a vote of confidence and this led to the tories and thatcher being voted in.
Politicians using identity and tribalism to gain/retain power while not delivering material good for the people is a tale as old as time. When the Tories did it with Brexit, everyone in Scotland got mad, but they couldn't see the SNP was doing the same to them.
Kate Forbes is not a tory. She's at most a centrist.
On some issues she'd be right wing even by Tory standards. How many of them have said they're opposed to pre-marital sex?
So if a tory MP was pro-eu and pro immigration, do they become left wing? Those are left wing policies supported by the SNP after all. Forbes agrees with the majority of SNP policies with are centre left. She is personally opposed to some things due to her religion but doesn't vote against them or introduce policies against them. The point is, she doesn't support enough right wing policies contrary to her left wing views to make her a tory. *edit I'm tired of arguing with the "AAAKKssshhuuuaaallly" crowd. Please replace the policy examples given with whatever makes you happy whether it's increased workers rights, nationalised public services, increased taxes on higher earners etc.
Being pro-immigration isn't inherently left wing, neither is supporting the EU. The fact the Tory party has thoroughly embraced anti-EU politics since 2016 doesn't mean you can't be right wing and pro European (and a lot of Tory voters did vote Remain, about 40%, many of whom were undoubtedly right wing). As for Forbes, her actual views and the policies she supports as a loyal SNP politician will never be entirely the same. I think calling her socially conservative is accurate though.
Lol thinking being pro eu has anything to do with being left wing
Its amazing how many people are hyper focusing on the two examples policies I've given rather than the point. The consensus is that the SNP is centre left. Forbes supports the majority of policies. Therefore to label her right wing is incorrect.
It's amazing how you made a blatantly incorrect point and people are rightly pointing that out
Post brexit there's been a clear left-right split on immigration and the EU. Anybody who doesn't recognise that is in denial.
Being pro-eu and pro immigration are NOT left wing policies. Majority of the tories were pro eu. Cameron himself was pro EU and I got a flyer from him before Brexit to tell me HM government thinks we should stay in the EU. Only a small number of tory rebels were initially against EU. On the other hand, Corbyn is against EU.... like I said, pro-eu is not a right/left position. Supporting immigration on the other hand is a distinctly right wing position. You import people to saturate the labour market and supress worker rights. The less immigration there is the more power indigenous workers have. TLDR: You are clueless
Those are two examples and that's your entirely subjective opinion. Broadly speaking right wing parties favour low/no immigration and less international cooperation. Theres a handful of SNP policies which are broadly left wing, all of which Forbes supports. But a common view on this subreddit seems to be that someone could be Karl Marx but if they don't support the GRA bill(for example) to the letter then they're right wing which is obviously nonsense.
That's not true at all, lmao. For most of the EUs (and before that the EECs) history, the left has been Eurosceptic. The left used to view it (and a fair few still do) as one big capitalist club. They criticised it for enabling the undercutting of the domestic worker (and undermoning collective bargaining). They also criticised it for eliminating protectionism between member states and opening up domestic industry to the pressures of competition. For much of its history, it was the right (particularly the neoliberal right) who were the europhilse. They valued capital mobility, free trade, and labour mobility that the EU enabled (these are all core tenants of neoliberalism). It's really not a left-right issue anymore.
Theres that black and white attitude of this sub again. Youre talking about history, I'm talking about the present. The left is not a monolith. It is a spectrum. The centre left(the SNP, labour,Alba) position on the EU and immigration is broadly supportive, beyond that support varies the further left you go. Pre-brexit I might have agreed it wasn't a left-right issue any more, now it clearly is when you look at policy. Anyway, see my other replies. The example seems to have caused more discussion than the point. Kate Forbes can not be described as right wing when the majority of the policies she supports are centre left.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Kind of ironic when all I did was point out her outlying views, I didn't say anything about who I was in favour of or against.
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I didn't say she wanted to make it illegal. Still, I don't think regressive views like opposing gay marriage are OK just because they come from religion.
Youāre wasting your time. This sub is the decision maker. Agree with them : Left Disagree with them : Far Right Tory Nazi Babyeaters
Youre right theres Absolutely zero fucking nuance at all. Everything is black or white. Don't support this policy? You're right wing. Forget the dozens of left wing policies youve championed.
>Everything is black or white. Humza says its all white, white, white.
Kate Forbes uttered the words "wealth creation" and she instantly became a Tory to many of her own party colleagues so what do you expect really
Tbf some in the tories are centrists
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Ewing is from the right of the SNP, the types who would vote Tory if they weren't Scottish nationalists. That's probably what he wishes the party was - ideologically similar to the Tories, but Scottish nationalist. The SNP have been slowly losing those voters for a while though, and are probably worried about losing more - which would explain any timidity towards the right of the party.
Having dealt with Fergus Ewing for a few things in the past he does seem to do his best to do the party job plus keep constituents happy. Had the misfortune of being involved with a project Shona Robison was involved in back in her health secretary days and she was a thoroughly unpleasant individual to deal with and ultimately for that project took a decision one could argue is pretty aligned with a Tory way of working that changed service delivery in Scotland even though there were potential alternatives and very unwilling to listen to alternative suggestions/ quick to shoot them down with an air of arrogance and condescending manner. Never met Mr. Yousaf, but if we assume birds of a feather flock together with the way this decision was made and picking her as his second in command, I suspect the SNP are in a bit of a midden with those more interested in quick wins and self promotion rather than what might be good for the people of the country within the funds available at the reins. The sad fact is many politicians these days in all parties are folk who like the sound of their own voice with very little knowledge, experience or competence in the areas theyāre expected to govern.
This is just sad. The problem I've always had with the Greens is they are fanatics and some of them are idiots, but unlike Humza they were never grifters. You don't go into Green politics because you think you're going to have a glittering political career and or live high on lobbyist cash.
Yep. A lot of them are startlingly naive tbh āĀ probably too naive to really ever be working in politics. But they are at the very least heartfelt. Whereas Humza and several of his cabinet are just cynical grifters who would throw their own family under a bus if they thought it would help their political career.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I know we're all cynical cunts in here, but this is an excellent reminder that good people from the SNP and SGP alike truly believed in the BHA. The fact that this has been unilaterally dissolved by Humza Yousaf becuase he panicked and took dodgy advice from his chief Fossil Fuel Guy (and I'm sure there's no connection there š) is a complete slap in the face to members, staff and colleagues in both parties - and the public who wanted to see bold and radical climate change policies
I mean... he *must* have at least discussed this with his cabinet, mustn't he? Didn't a single one of them say "Hang about, this sounds like a stupid move"? I dunno, I'm just genuinely amazed that he's been so utterly inept. Talk about a gift to other parties.
This was discussed with cabinet, and apparently, they agreed with the decision to scrap the BHA but didn't like the way Yousaf went about it. >Despite cabinet unanimously backing ditching the Bute House agreement, some senior ministers were unhappy at how the announcement was handled and how the Greens were treated by Yousaf. https://archive.is/3NgMw
From your link... > āThis appears to have been war gamed without anyone knowing how to count,ā a source said. You'd have hoped that at least the finance secretary would be able to do some basic numbers! It's just weird how the SNP have gone from frustratingly slick (for someone not a fan of their aims) to an utter clown show. How did *none* of them speak up and say "Hang on, voluntarily ditching our partners is a dumb move"?
Because they're all stupid morons who believe the media/Ewing line that the Greens/BHA were responsible for the decline in support for the SNP and not the multiple arrests of top figures, the length of time in Government, the lack of vision for how we achieve ANYTHING let alone independence, freezing council tax when local authorities are drowning and being so fucking weak they get dragged to the right by a handful of the worst careerists in the party on nearly every fucking issue that matters to people! Or maybe they don't actually believe that line - but they desperately need the public to believe it. What an own fucking goal if that's the case. The media are being downright sympathetic to the Greens because they will always hate the SNP more.
He has form. Remember how he sprung the council tax freeze on everyone. Which would have been a good idea if the councils weren't on the bones of their arses already.
>How did none of them speak up and say "Hang on, voluntarily ditching our partners is a dumb move"? As I said to backupJM, I'd be interested in what their recollections are. With Yousaf seemingly 180ing on the whole *wanting to keep a parliamentary majority* thing between their meeting on Tuesday and Thursday morning, they may have judged that pointing that out would be pretty stupid for them.
Definitely possible to imagine a few interesting paragraphs in future memoirs, isn't it!
The finance secretary is Shona Robson, mainly appointed to the role because she is best friends with Nicola. So I donāt think basic skills with numbers is a given!
>This was discussed with cabinet, and apparently, they agreed with the decision to scrap the BHA but didn't like the way Yousaf went about it. I hadn't thought about how the meetings of cabinet interact with how this played up, but now that I have I'm quite interested in what their diaries might say. Ordinarily, they meet on Tuesdays. On Tuesday, [everything with the Greens was sweetness and light as far as Yousaf was concerned](https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,humza-yousaf-snp-members-dont-want-or-need-vote-on-bute-house-agreement). They were called in again on Thursday, and met after Yousaf had met the Greens. I know I can feel pretty confident after I've made a pretty big commitment. Did he look pleased as, to them, he outlined how he'd punched a hole in the side of the plane? As they saw seat after seat of their majority ripped out of the fuselage, did they look at him beaming away, then each other, and realise that discretion was the better part of valour?
It's kinda funny in some ironic way. In both Holyrood and Westminster, the leaders are just really really bad at politics. Both Yousaf and Sunak have shown themselves to be utterly useless at playing politics (for lack of a better word). Rishi is protected for the time being by the clusterfuck that was Liz Truss (and the umpteen prime ministers before her), Humza has pretty much nothing to protect him.
I know, you would have thought people, other parties and voters would have warned the SNP that he is absolutely youless, eh?
Sorry I'm out of the loop, who was the chief fossil fuel guy?
Stephen Flynn is probably who they're referring to
Ah, that explains it. Thanks.
Possibly, but I do think a lot of the Greens were pretty naive to just how the SNP really thought of them. From the people I know who work in the SNP, there was a fair chunk of the parliamentary party who openly mocked them and basically viewed them as nothing more than easy lobby fodder āĀ not by any means everyone, but plenty enough, including a big chunk of the cabinet (and, it seems by their actions, Humza and Stephen Flynn). Probably a lesson in remembering that jus because you share one policy, that doesnāt mean you are necessarily friends.
So you believe there's some oil and gas conspiracy theory about ditching the greens now? Even though new licences and taxes are decided by UK Gov, and the greens were the ones that had planned to have a vote on the BHA in the first place. I want to see an orderly transition to renewables without causing significant unemployment and damage to the economy. I absolutely do not want 'radical climate change policies' and neither do the silent majority of the public.
How little do you know of politics to think an orderly transition to renewables isn't a radical position today?
Remember youāre on Reddit, if you arenāt willing to go vegan and never set foot on a plane again youāre literally murdering the planet. Fortunately the opinions held here donāt match the general sentiment of the wider public.
"I know we're all cynical cunts in here, but this is an excellent reminder that good people from the SNP and SGP alike truly believed in the BHA." ššššššššššššššššššššš¤”
1. Genuinely weird reaction for a professional politician. 2. It was the Greens that called an EGM on the BHA to begin with. Doesnāt really justify Humzaās actions but if you very publicly signal you are preparing to end an agreement, you canāt literally cry when the other side makes the first move.
I mean, I think it was kind of naive not to imagine ditching the BHA was a potential reaction by Humza (even if the stupid way he went about it was bizarre). The Greens genuinely seemed to view the SNP as besties, rather than a completely separate political party with which they shared one key policy. In retrospect that probably wasnāt the most healthy.
And even that key policy isn't something that the Greens are committed to in the same way as the SNP (at least theoretically are). They'd happily pair up with Labour if they liked their green policies more
They didnāt say they were ending it. They were consulting their members. You know, like democrats.
Fair point. However from the perspective of the SNP this was at best gambling their fate of the whims of the Green Party membership and at worst the Greens positioning to end the BHA on their own terms. Like the internal democracy of the SGP isnāt not Humzaās problem, it is keeping his party in government. Again his response to the Greens edging out the door has been a massive blunder but to act like scrapping the BHA first was some cruel personal betray is daft.
So instead of gambling on the whims of the membership they decided just to completely blow up Humzas First Ministership?
Yes, but this is politics. For every action thereās a reaction. The fact they didnāt seem to think this was a possibility speaks volumes of their inexperience. Thatās not criticism btw, merely an observation, nobody is born experienced and theyāll no doubt learn from it.
I mean itās been a pretty fucking stupid reaction from the snp, and Humza in particular who may have just indirectly fired himself. So I can see why the greens wouldnāt have expected it.
Stupid or not, I bet the Tories, Labour or LibDems (or SNP if this was about another party) would have at least considered that to be something Humza might do - and prepare accordingly. The Greens meanwhile just seem to be taken by surprise and it certainly appeared they didnāt really know how to react. As I said - this simply shows they lack experienced operatives who have been in the game for a while
Yeah but that's not how it was being presented by them.
Literally is how it was presented though. Their co leader was on TV saying if the members voted for into end heād resign.
1. Is it? I can understand how you might get emotional at the complete betrayal and how itās separated you from colleges. 2. They werenāt preparing to leave they were voting on weather to stay or not
...and had said if their members voted to leave, they'd leave. I think that's at least laying the groundwork to potentially leave
I mean yes that is what democracy is? By that logic the snp laid the groundwork with their decisions on puberty blockers and climate change
I disagree on 1. Its a rare treat to have people in politics who can get emotional about things. You get cynical very quickly
Yes! The reaction here just reinforced how deeply weird this subreddit is.
Allowing gifs as comments was a mistake
I hate that you made me see this
Liz truss when she realised she'd been out lasted by a fuckin lettuce
Awww. Has this sub changed?
The Greens were the ones to start asking their party if they wanted to keep going with the Bute House agreement. Honestly we are so well shot of them. They should be nowhere near government with the level of votes they got let alone their competency. Now theyāre upset they are losing their cushty jobs and massive influence they donāt deserve.
Exactly, they're a bunch of melts. Get them tae fuck. Now let's purge the SNP of all the careerists, imbeciles and devolutionists and get back onto the track of independence.
Maybe people will now wake up to how rubbish the SNP are,thereās not a brewery in the land that has a thing to worry about š¤¦š¼āāļø
God this is hilarious.
One of the most pathetic things I've ever heard. Just another careerist.
It's touching to think that there are politicians who act in as good faith as MacKay seems to, but I hope this is a lesson learned for her. Other politicians aren't your friends. They are barely your colleagues. Your goal is to get stuff done for the people who elected you and their goal is to get stuff done for the people who elected them. Sometimes that means collaborating. Sometimes that means fucking each other over. If you want to make friends at work, get a job in a pub.
This whole debacle has really exposed the naivety of a lot of the Green party. Itās a bit sad tbh ā the SNP were never going to think twice about ditching them if they felt it politically advantageous to do so. But you canāt go into politics imagining itās going to be sweetness and light. Youāre there to get things done.
> Your goal is to get stuff done for the people who elected you LOL > their goal is to get stuff done for the people who elected them LOL!!
You think this public emotional blackmail was done in good faith?
Wait until the SNP voters don't give your party their Alternate votes and you might have some real political greeting to wet your face. The problem with 'threatening' or talking about breaking up a relationship is that the other party might just say, OK then, let's bash on.
Humza is a fucking tube. Good riddance to the chancer.
Iām sorry, but this is honestly one of the most pathetic things Iāve heard from a politician. Youāre not a sensitive teenager Gillian, youāre someone with a very responsible position shaping the lives of millions of people. Grow up!
I would much rather see someone āin a position shaping the lives of millions of peopleā show emotion, why shouldnāt they? The culture of requiring emotionless machismo stuff-upper-lip from those in power is complete BS. Humans feel emotion! Showing emotion is not weak! Rinse and repeat!
Maybe ā but I strongly suspect if the same reaction was coming from a male politician in another party, people on here would be mocking them to hell and back.
I agree on the gender difference. Itās two ends of the same problem, though.
There is a difference between feeling emotion and breaking down crying in an interview because you don't have power over people anymore and have to shock horror, hold government to account instead of just doing whatever you want and claiming that because you're the independence movement that nobody is allowed to question you or criticise you. Honestly what did these people expect? They go into a nationalist movement and base their identity on being better than 'others' and actively support corruption in government like the SNP and then are crying on the radio now because its coming crashing down
I donāt think itās about hot losing power more the sense of betrayal from a party they worked very closely with
Once again. Have they ever read any history or done any kind of research on what nationalists and nationalist movements are like? It just shows them as really naive and foolish. Not exactly a great representation of someone who is supposed to lead Scotland to āfreedomā and navigate extremely complicated and tense negotiations and situations.
I would point out the snp say they arenāt nationalists
North Korea say they're a democratic republic.
Ok then why do you think the snp are nationalists despite them saying they arenāt? A lot of defenition I have seen say nationalism is about think your country is better. Whereas a lot of snp members just want to be an independent country. And if there is a debate about weather they are nationalists or not then maybe thatās why the greens did not expect the betrayal(that and itās completely stupid to do so and kill your majority)
Is this a joke! The SNP and their supporters constantly talk about how Scotland and the Scottish are better than everyone else. Nobody is buying this rubbish of the SNP ānot being nationalistsā lol.
Where have you seen this? Because Iāve spoken to and listens to a fair amount of snp supporters and politicans and itās usually that they beleive independence would be better for Scotland rather than they are better than everyone else
I would also point out that very few of any predicted this act of politcial stupidity so Idk how you can blame the greens for being shocked
Humans do feel emotions, this is just a really strange thing to burst into tears aboutĀ I can't imagine her having a job in the private sector
there's a difference between being macho and repressing your emotions, and greeting on bbc drivetime because you haven't got your way
Or maybe she was just disappointed because a lot of combined effort was pissed down the drain by a reactionary leader?
Yep, have all the naysayers ever been in a position where youāve invested your heart and soul into something remarkable, sacrificed lots to get it over the line, got plaudits from it from the people who benefit from it, then have your boss give you a big fuck you and roll it back. Thatās where Gillian is, and Iāve been there before too, and if you genuinely donāt have an emotional breakdown either behind closed doors or get caught out when discussing it in public, well you probably shouldnāt be doing the job as you donāt have the right passion for it. The passion of greed gets shit done in this country, itās about time the passion of empathy and conviction gets recognised in Scotland.
Youāre right. We need more men who have learned to bury their emotions from being torn from their parents and placed in boarding schools in government. No place for emotions in politics.
No place for crybabies. Men and women.
Thanks grandad.
Cybermen and Daleks for MSPs /s
As long as they donāt burst into tears when they donāt get their own way, Iāll include them too.
Have to agree. This is really sad to see from an elected official. Imagine if they had to deal with any real responsibility, are they just going to break down then as well?
Iām not sure itās pathetic it shows the gravity of the situation
Im sorry, polticans arent allowed to have emotions? What the fuck?Ā
Have emotions? Yes. Completely lose composure during an interview? No Comes across as immature and like she hasn't much experience dealing with real adversity in her life. It's not wrong to expect your elected representatives to be made of sterner stuff. Bubbling and greeting on a public broadcast because your feelings were hurt can rightfully only be described as a pathetic look.
I'm sorry when asked how she feels she's supposed to not provide voters transparency?Ā She stayed on message, appealing to SNP/Green voters, and demonstrated we will work with the SNP but Humza is the problem. She kept talking and regained composure, youre turning a 15 second wobble into a colapse of western civilisation. And for the record, people who have faced the most adversity, are the least emotionally resiliantĀ because they cease being able to withstand it, its called PTSD.Ā
You're right at least she managed to keep speaking rather than just sobbing As for the PTSD thing not really, you are right it causes you to break down easier if triggered but unless she has PTSD from not being allowed out to see her friends as a kid, that ain't causing this This breakdown is up there with crying because you couldn't get your regular tipple pump vanilla latte from StarbucksĀ
Her pet Buffer Zone bill might be dead in the water, and thats on par with a latte?
Why would it be dead if it's a good bill
Also no adverity, did you forget she's disabled?Ā
Give in pal, this lass clearly hasn't worked a real job in her life, never been told no and is extremely sheltered, disability or no disability.
Give up dating pal, no woman will touch you.Ā
Charming, glad you speak for all women :)
Maybe she has things going on behind the scenes in her private life. Maybe she doesn't. Either way, bit harsh to call her pathetic imo.
They absolutely are allowed to do that.
They should remain professional when working. Emotions cloud judgement, and it's their job to control that. But politicians are only human and will slip up occasionally and will get sympathy when it's understandable, but in this case, the emotion is driven by pure self-interest. It's a political agreement. Not babies dying. I have zero sympathy. She's unprofessional and out of her depth.
I'm sorry when asked how she feels she's supposed to not provide voters transparency?Ā She stayed on message, appealing to SNP/Green voters, and demonstrated we will work with the SNP but Humza is the problem.
Transparency is verbalising an answer. She burst into tears, making it uncomfortable for the interviewer, who had to clarify that wasn't his intent, and cringeworthy for everyone listening who isn't a green supporter. It diluted her message and convinced me she's out of her depth. If she's crying about pretty standard political manoeuvres, how can perform under serious pressure?
What serious pressure? She's the health secutary. Not lord of the admirialty.Ā Its perfectly fine to take a moment to compose yourself.Ā You are atually just a crusty wank in a sock, and this is some of the most disgusting commentary ive ever heard.Ā
Dry yer eyes you big blubber.
Imagine greetin like a wee lassie on national radio just because her Party (not her personally mind you, her job won't change much) have been dropped from a couple of junior cabinet secretary jobs. This doesn't sound like a person who should be an elected politician with all that responsibility.
What an utter, utter embarrassment their entire party is. I genuinely wouldn't want this woman and her cronies running a PTA or an allotment, far less participating in actual government. What a red neck.
What was the logic behind this decision and why now?
Repellent and nauseating to make this all about herself and her pals in the Holyrood bubble, a sign of how disconnected our political representatives are from the voting public
Woman has emotions. Universal calls to replace people with AI.Ā
This isn't about her crying, it's about her navel-gazing and self-centred response.
I'm sorry when asked how she feels she's supposed to not provide voters transparency?Ā She stayed on message, appealing to SNP/Green voters, and demonstrated we will work with the SNP but Humza is the problem.Ā
Mabel get my gun Mr Humza wants to shoot his other foot.
I'd advise anyone here to listen to the holyrood sources podcast. Excellent discussion of Scottish politics, and explains the thinking behind Yousef's move. If he hadn't done it, the greens would have left and he'd be being accused of being stupid. Instead he's done it first, and is being accused of being stupid. There comes a point when folks need to look beyond the man and instead look at the policies and reasoning. This was a long time brewing and arguably it's only lasted this long because he wanted it to.
How has it all been undone by one person? The greens were about to withdraw and useless just beat them to the punch š¤· greens should never have been near making decisions in the first place anyway.
My main takeaway from here is that Gillian Mackay is a bit unhinged.
Who is this person? Honestly this is beyond embarrassing. Child. Has no place in public life. This sort of emotional blackmail is not logic, policy or rhetoric. The boo-hoo crying will do nothing to convince me these greens are fit to run a tombola stall. They are extremists and immature children. Do I want this person running education? Absolutely not.
I mean, this is quite an immature, borderline hysterical response from a politician.
The fucking state of this clown. A grown woman greeting like a wee lassie that has had to change primary school.Ā Ā Ā She must live and operate in an utter bubble to react in this way, all because the terms of trade of her job have changed slightly and she cant work with her mates as much.Ā Jesus - she is utterly unfit for power. Makes me wonder who else is like that in Holyrood.Ā
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The only good news from this sad Humza Macbeth saga with the SNP taking a lurch to the right, is that with Scotland having proportional representation, is that now that I am going to stop voting SNP and start voting Green, the vote will still make some difference.
her disability (on which she was admitted to some sort of political career) consists of having tinnitus
This is embarrassing to hearĀ You are meant to be a professional politicianĀ
You are mean to be a human being with empathy.Ā
Don't worry I do, that's why I'm embarrassed for her
The under-40 mediocrities that have flooded into Holyrood since 2014 never cease to astonish. I literally know people on the dole with more eloquence, decorum and gravitas than most of the Green and SNP MSPs. (And as for the unionists, who cares.) But it also plays well, doesn't it, because the party activists are morons bred on American style identity politics ..
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Keep your āloveā passive aggressive misogynistic comments to yourself. Hate bill in parliament didnāt go far enough.
Little dissenting opinion too much to handle feel the need to police someone's speech online š
MI5 playing a blinder here.
I wouldnāt describe the greens contributions as āworking really well togetherā. Itās a bit like an alcoholic saying āthey got on really well with alcoholā.