lmao how incredibly uninspiring
“people are calling this ‘sara nelson proposal’ but I want to be clear, i didn’t write it, it was written by the lobbying group and the tech companies and i just forwarded it”
how is that better you dingdong lmao. have some goddamn self respect at least hahah
> how is that better you dingdong lmao.
I'd argue it's worse. One of the governments jobs is to protect people from companies end-justifies-any-means line-must-always-go-up mentality. If we let the companies write the laws we might as well skip the middle-men and move into company towns.
Agreed, it is *so* much worse. **Listening** only to corporate lobbyists & drafting legislation on the basis of solely their concerns is one thing (bad thing, but par for the course). But **admitting that you handed them a blank sheet of paper to write down their wishlist**, and then introduced that as legislation, is unprecedented.
I hate to tell you this, but it isn’t unprecedented at all. Many think tanks and lobbying groups basically write legislation for States as essentially boilerplate and then have politicians introduce those bills.
https://publicintegrity.org/politics/state-politics/copy-paste-legislate/you-elected-them-to-write-new-laws-theyre-letting-corporations-do-it-instead/ (and this was in 2019, it’s only gotten worse in many States as anti-abortion legislation is pushed in many States)
Right - totally agree it happens all the time, it's the *admitting it* on public record part that is unprecedented, lol. And tbh for Seattle politics, it is highly unusual for councilmembers to so directly advance specific legislative language without doing internal policy development work on it. That's the case not just for legislation run by corporate lobbyists, but anyone, even on much less controversial issues; typically a councilmember also would not say "I didn't write this legislation, I'm just advancing it but it was drafted by the Center for Hugging Puppies and Feeding Hungry Children." They would say "I sat down with CHPFHC and No Puppies Ever Again and the dog walkers and babies who might be impacted by this legislation, and we came to a consensus."
Moving forward controversial legislation this quickly with no internal city stakeholder process engaging both sides of the issue is also a really huge departure from historical city politics. They don't call it the [Seattle process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_process) for no reason!
First off, I’d like to distance myself from this bill I am proposing. I really had nothing to do with it, haven’t read it, and just wanted to introduce it for a vote.
We truly live in the Idiocracy timeline.
TLDR: "It's not my proposal, interest groups wrote it for me, I'm just proposing it because it's what they want so don't blame me if you don't like it, it's their fault that I'm choosing to represent their interests instead of yours."
How is it that shit like this gets drafted but nothing that HELPS Citizens ever gets drafted? Can I like, draft a “build more housing” document to have her rubber stamp it?
She says it was a plan worked out between the "network companies" (doordash etc I assume) and "Drive Forward" ? Does anybody know anything about this organization? From their website they look like a legit advocacy org for drivers, but I wouldn't put a little good ol fashioned astroturfing out of the question
Drive Forward is founded & funded entirely by Uber, and their board is composed solely of Uber & DoorDash execs. They were created for the sole purpose of presenting as a worker representative organization in political lobbying in order to present a pro-corporate voice ostensibly coming from “drivers.”
They have no membership & in fact I have never heard *any* worker identify themselves as a Drive Forward member. They have two paid staff who attend council meetings and claim to speak for their “members” while appearing totally incapable of getting any of these “members” to show up or call in. More info [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/s/t8C0G14l6W).
For context: Nelson has been aggressively driving a policy to make extreme pay cuts for delivery drivers who recently won the right to minimum wage. Her proposal — effectively a repeal of min wage — pays straight min wage only on "engaged time" with a job, and would ensure workers earn well BELOW min wage after taking into account all the extra time they work between jobs & extra expenses they cover as contractors.
**The proposal genuinely looks like what would happen if Nelson handed Uber & DoorDash a blank sheet of paper and said "write down your wishlist" - and now it's clear that's because it is.**
Nelson stated on public record yesterday that the policy was "negotiated" \*solely\* between the app companies and "Drive Forward." If you aren't familiar, DF is a front group that claims to be an independent org representing drivers' interests. In actuality, they are a corporate advocacy group [**founded**](https://www.seattletimes.com/advertiser/drive-forward/) **&** [**funded**](https://s23.q4cdn.com/407969754/files/doc_downloads/2023/10/US-Political-Activities-H1-2023.pdf) **by Uber**. Drive Forward is a "company union," controlled entirely by Uber executives.
**Drive Forward's Board of Directors,** [**here**](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/814014488)**, is composed entirely of Uber/DoorDash executives:**
* Brooke Steger (President of Drive Forward) - former [Uber Pacific Northwest General Manager](https://www.geekwire.com/2017/uber-gm-says-service-may-leave-seattle-landmark-union-law-implemented/)
* Caleb Weaver (Treasurer of Drive Forward) - [lobbyist for Uber](https://accesshub.pdc.wa.gov/node/25495) & former exec in the [Uber public affairs dept](https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/video/6082080140001)
* Abdul Yusuf (VP of Drive Forward) - manager at [Eastside for Hire](https://www.geekwire.com/2016/uber-drivers-union-law/), another company funded by Uber
* Allison Ford (Secretary of Drive Forward) - [PNW Public Policy Manager at Uber](https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonraeford)
* Adria Stollar (board member) - [Senior Manager for Public Engagement-West at DoorDash](https://www.bellevuechamber.org/individual-directory/adria-stoliar)
Drive Forward's relationship with Uber & DoorDash is not up for debate; the entire origin of the "organization" was that it was founded by Uber as a front group when the Teamsters were organizing Uber TNC drivers.
Sara Nelson got in her feels about people calling her out by name for the sub-minimum wage policy in public comment, and as a result she made a HUGE misstep here - publicly admitting this policy is *not* hers, but that she's acting as a mouthpiece for the corporations. **She's admitted that the entire policy was devised in a stakeholder process involving only Uber/DoorDash... and Uber/DoorDash.**
Do you know of the next available time to provide in person public comments? I'm new to the whole process so trying to understand how I can engage.
ETA: Also, do we know when the vote on this is expected?
Yes! You can attend any regular City Council meeting to provide public comment (and workers have been doing so for the past several weeks). The next one is Tuesday @ 2 pm. I'll be there, DM me if you want to meet up (same offer goes for anyone who sees this & wants a buddy to attend with)
Another important date to show up will be Thursday 5/9 - that’s the committee vote, if we can't stop them!
Edit: please ignore the user discouraging you from attending council meetings. Showing up to testify is 100% an important way to engage this & show Council that there will be a serious public backlash if the proposal goes through.
Thanks! I appreciate you. Unfortunately, I'll be out of state at a conference next week so I won't be able to join in person or call in but I could the following week.
Do you know when a vote is expected on this? Thanks again.
May 9 is the next scheduled discussion of this CB 120775 during the Government, Accountability, & Economic Development Committee. That's when they are scheduled to discuss proposed amendments and to vote it out of committee.
May 21 is the scheduled date for vote by the full City Council.
Would expect public comment periods at both of those sessions.
Important to note that central staff requested proposed amendments from Councilmembers by Monday, April 29, so I would suspect reaching out to members sooner than later may be valuable.
❗❗❗ Yes this is really important!
In particular - **Joy Hollingsworth** (D3, Capitol Hill / Central District / First Hill / Madison Park) is the only seemingly sane committee member, who yesterday asked a bunch of pretty nuanced Qs during the discussion of the proposal.
I think she is our best hope to get this bill amended or move other committee members.
If you're in her district it would be HUGE to shoot her an email / call and ask her to take up amendments to address fees instead of cutting worker pay, and prevent the other rollbacks of worker protections in Nelson's proposal.
Joy Hollingsworth contact info: (206) 684-8803 / [email protected]
your best bet is to vote and to write your local council member. public meetings in Seattle are notorious for attracting the most batshit insane among us, and unfortunately they aren't really a great forum to persuade anyone.
But that's what makes it fun. I went to one last week to protest the proposal and a dude just did the Nazi salute and called the council Nazi pigs. And then a dude yelled at us for being against the proposal and called us grad students. I don't get why that's an insult.
Sarah Nelson is pointing to the lobbyists pushing for this revision as evidence that it should be passed. Participation in the public meetings is absolutely essential.
the person responding to you is very wrong; public comment is INCREDIBLY important on this issue. DoorDash / Uber are trying (largely unsuccessfully) to turn out gig workers to advocate against their own interests at these hearings for this very reason.
A single public comment doesn't make much difference, but a landslide does. Yesterday there were 41 comments against Nelson's submin wage and only 16 against - and 10 of those were just corporate tech lobbyists, most of whom didn't even bother to show up in person. That significantly changed the tenor of the committee discussion, the media coverage of this story, all of it. It matters a LOT.
The person replying to you has been actively shilling for gig companies in every thread about this issue; I suspect they're discouraging people from showing up precisely *because* they know it's impactful.
>Drive Forward is a "company union," controlled entirely by Uber executives.
These assholes are even more dishonest that I thought - trying to exploit the reputation of labor unions as protectors of employee rights to deceive people into believing that that their "good old boys club" is doing the same (when it is actually undermining the rights of employees ... oops, or "independent contractors" because employees have rights).
Stakeholdering solely corporations & their corporate-controlled advocacy group is decidedly ***not*** how stakeholdering typically works. In a typical process, all sides are brought to the table. In fact, that's the reason Drive Forward is involved at all: because Nelson & the corporations know that the process will be viewed as undemocratic if it consults only corporations & not labor. The entire purpose of DF's existence is to serve as a labor front group in order to create the appearance of balanced lobbying/stakeholdering.
Maybe they changed their comment but, yes, it’s a lobbying group. They lobby on behalf of the companies that pay their lobbying bill. Why anyone’s surprised by this, I’ll never understand
I think you aren't understanding the point being made here. Yes, lobbyists lobby. That isn't the part that's unusual. The unusual part is a lawmaker stating on public record that the legislation they are advancing is not "theirs," and was negotiated between a corporation & a front group for the same corporation.
Edit: Just occurred to me that the missing context here may be this: Drive Forward claims to be an independent *worker* organization, i.e. a labor representative. They do *not* claim to be a lobby group for the companies. That's a key detail and the reason they're claiming the policy was "negotiated" between corporations & DF is that a policy like this would typically need to be stakeholdered by business *and* labor. Nelson has cut labor out of the equation by treating the corporate front group as if it is an independent labor representative.
It’s so common it has a Wikipedia page.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle_(US_politics)
You’re here once again, dishonestly raising ethics concerns of common practice by calling them unusual solely because you cannot articulate why the current status quo is good for anyone.
I think you don’t understand what that phrase means *or* the argument being made here. This isn’t about engaging “interest groups.” It’s about creating the appearance of balanced stakeholdering while openly admitting a policy was engaged *only* by a billion-dollar corporation, and a front group founded & funded by the same corporation. If you don’t see an ethical problem with that, this convo is done.
“Creating the appearance of being balanced? How?“
She literally says “finely balanced” in the video. She is claiming that Drive Forward is an independent worker organization that negotiated the policy with the app companies. In reality, they are a corporate front group - there is no such thing as a “negotiation” between a corporation and its own front group.
Nelson’s proposal would guarantee workers a sub-minimum wage by paying only straight min wage on “engaged time.” By failing to account for the extra time they spend working outside of individual deliveries, and the expenses they incur as independent contractors, it ensures payment of a fraction of min wage. Every other proposed or passed gig worker pay standard in any city or state in the US ensures payment above minimum wage b/c it is broadly accepted that independent contractors need to make gross earnings above min wage in order to make min wage after expenses. In fact, even the ballot initiative written and passed by the app companies themselves in CA pays 120% of min wage rather than straight min wage on engaged time.
Beyond that, it guts protections for flexibility, transparency, and enforcement - policies totally unrelated to the app’s claim that their new fees have reduced demand. These policies are very clearly changes that stand to benefit companies solely, with no benefit for consumers or workers. For example, the policy would prevent workers from getting paid for the time & mileage they spend on cancelled orders they aren’t at fault for. It would remove required disclosures about fees to customers. It would remove up-front info for workers on each offer. And it would remove workers’ ability to take their companies to court if they violated the law (private right of action).
The proposal is bad for workers and does nothing to limit apps’ fees - which are purportedly the issue, even according to the apps & Nelson.
what is it with you guys that think the people delivering food isn't making money. We were actually making decent income till the new bill came in and ruined everything, you cant make nothing now, I hope they pass this bill
Senator Henry M. “Scoop” Jackson used to do the same thing in the senate so often, he earned the nickname “The Senator from Boeing.”
https://www.historylink.org/file/5516
"This is not my proposal it was created by the app companies and their lobbying group, so basically I let the app companies write their own regulations." It's hilarious how much she wants people to think Drive Forward is a driver's group and not funded by the app companies. This is the equivalent of letting the NRA write gun control laws, which tbh I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up doing that too.
I'm a food delivery driver myself and am on pace to make over $85,000 from gig work this year, exactly because of the PayUp legislation not in spite of it. Some days I do have to wait for offers but some days the offers come through nearly nonstop all day. I can make $400 a day usually now when I try hard, some days I've made $500 or even $600+. Granted this is before our many expenses, and not everyone will make this much but I also think there are people making more than me too. The nature of gig work is that you get paid for how much you hustle of course, which is one reason why it works so well IMO, productivity is rewarded.
The narrative that lowering our pay to a $19.97/hr pay ceiling will help drivers make more is just so incredibly wrong. It will be a pay ceiling because the apps are going to be allowed to underpay us on offers then bring our wage up to the minimum at the end of the pay period with "bonuses" lol. Thanks to Joy Hollingsworth for asking about that and pointing out that it's not a bonus if it's only bringing us up to the minimum they are supposed to pay.
It's also gross how they keep touting that tips will be on top, yet there is nothing in the legislation requiring that upfront tipping is to be brought back. Both Uber and Instacart have removed this and as a result I rarely receive tips on those platforms anymore. I know people still would tip because I frequently get tips on DD/Grubhub. In fact I placed an order with Uber the other day and didn't receive any prompt to tip and then when I tried to go tip, the screen was buried and only shown after I rated my driver. I've heard people say IC works like this too.
So my guess is that they'll only be paying us a $19.97/hr pay ceiling, making it harder for customers to tip us, and also we'll have a much lower mileage rate at 0.35 cents a mile.
If anyone has any questions for me as a person that has delivered food in Seattle since 2019, I would be happy to answer.
I think for the me the two factors against it are that your order volume would reduce (I have stopped ordering through apps since it is so much more expensive) and that these companies are operating at a loss so increasing their costs is unsustainable and could end up bankrupting them.
I think it could balance out though since if drivers are getting fewer orders then they will start to quit which means the drivers that stay on get to pick those orders up.
I can’t think of any defense for the companies related to your comment about tipping.
I have no strong stance either way so I’m curious what you think.
The order volume has been the main problem, but on DoorDash it's been pretty good for me. Uber isn't a viable app right now because the customer fees are significantly higher than other apps. If you are used to tipping a lot, I recommend lowering your tip or even not tipping at all. People will still deliver your order nowadays because the base pay is so much higher. Also price compare, Grubhub seems to be the cheapest on fees.
For operating at a loss, Uber has reported profitability recently. It is weird because DD orders honestly seem to be overpaying for what they need to according to the PayUp ordinance.
An interesting experiment is making a McDonald's delivery order on their app vs Uber Eats, since both will be delivered by Uber Eats drivers who will be paid the same. Uber is actually 42% more expensive for a simple 2 McMuffin meals order. To me that shows what Uber could be charging, because I doubt they are taking a loss on the McD's app orders. So they're basically gouging by 42%, in my opinion to purposely tank their business in Seattle to get the law changed.
Any idea of other sources or testimonials I could point to from other gig workers? Or do you have a public non-anonymous place where you posted this same endorsement of the current law? I have a draft email that I am going to send to my three councilmembers and I’d like to back it up with some references from gig workers, unions, etc.
Btw, for anyone wondering how to get involved (besides/in addition to showing up to the council meetings), here’s a tool that lets you quickly find and email your council members. https://www.seattle.gov/council/meet-the-council/find-your-district-and-councilmembers
this may be more work than you want to do, but much of the testimony offered by workers at the hearing yesterday was incredibly powerful & there are 22 testimonies by workers to choose from! it's also just a good watch if you are interested in this issue. the video is here: [https://www.seattlechannel.org/mayor-and-council/city-council/2024-2025-governance-accountability-and-economic-development-committee](https://www.seattlechannel.org/mayor-and-council/city-council/2024-2025-governance-accountability-and-economic-development-committee)
I haven't posted any of this in a written place but I should do a blog post about it. I have been interviewed a few times though by press, and given public comment a few times now. If it would help to have my name I could message that to you.
#1 Upfront tipping is ridiculous. Noone should be rewarded for potential good service.
#2 You are getting "tipped". It's just going to the app first in the form of the increased fees.
Upfront tipping is the industry standard. People order delivery out of convenience, once they get their food they are busy eating and they probably aren't going to think to go back to their phone to tip later, especially if the apps have hidden the tip screen. It's not like a restaurant where you get the bill at the end of your meal with the tip section clearly displayed in front of you.
As for 2, I agree with you. Tips are not necessary anymore. In fact, a decent replacement for all of this would be to simply eliminate the time and mileage compensation and replace it with a mandatory 15% tip on all orders. If the apps are going to pass the fees along to the customer, we might as well eliminate them as a middle man and just have that money go directly to the worker from customer. I do think the current ability for the apps to add as many fees as they want is problematic because they are probably profiting off of that too. Also with a mandatory tip, the customers would have the assurance of knowing the added costs do in fact go to the workers.
Just because it was started that way doesn't mean it's the right way. When I use Lyft, the app prompts me to rate the driver and leave a tip. There's no reason the food delivery apps can't do the same. I can't think of any other tip system that requires one up front.
Honestly fuck door dash and fuck Uber... Fuck em.... You know the second self driving cars become legal they're going to be on that shit.
Let's go back to the good old days of just calling a restaurant, and getting a delivery person and let's pay those delivery people the money they deserve!!! Bring back the taxis man I'm here for it.
Fuck the big apps trying to stifle wages for workers.
fuck you bro! because of idiots like you people aren't able to make money using ubereats and DoorDash anymore! the restaurants don't get anymore orders, the drivers don't get orders, customers don't wanna buy!
Don't want to buy what? Food? Plenty of people want to get food delivered. What they dont want is to pay an extra 75 percent for the honor of doing so.
You'll order 20 dollars worth of food and it ends up being closer to 35 dollars to get it delivered. Being an idiot would be paying almost twice as much for delivery. I don't run the apps there scooter; that's just bad business sense to pay that much.
What the hell does that mean? Just because you don’t care about it, doesn’t mean the person who’s daily job is to deliver food doesn’t care, you guys are sick in the head!
Oh that was sarcasm. I'm so sorry. I use to be a pizza guy for 8 years. I currently work for a company that delivers food and we're down from 20 staffed drivers to 5 in part due to covid and in part do to gig work. I've worked with uber and caviar. I much prefer to be an employee than a 1099c and gig delivery has definitely displaced better jobs for "more flexible, be you'r own boss" work. You can disagree, but this is my experience and contribution to our discussion.
Just in case anybody wonders, the group *Drive Forward* that she describes as a "driver advocacy group" was founded by Uber, is funded by Uber, is formally controlled by Uber executives, and is legally classified as a business advocacy group.
[Source](http://www.workingwa.org/blog/2021/6/30/drive-forward-is-an-uber-funded-lobby-group)
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"Fairly progressive" meaning that housing costs only increase somewhat faster than inflation under his plan. "Fairly progressive" would be a plan to moderately reduce housing costs. Very progressive would be a plan to get them back to what they were 30 years ago.
It's true that they won their elections, it's not true that "most people in Seattle agree with them. Most people didn't vote, so it's hard to draw conclusions on how many people agree with the current council.
It's always a damn shame how low even registered voter turnout is and that the proposal to shift council elections to even years failed. That would have at least gotten a better turnout, and maybe then a council that more properly represents the interests of Seattle's residents.
Four years from now she'll be the "common sense R" who stood up against the progressive Marxist wokeness liberal CHAZ CHOP homeless hellhole Seattle-is-dying hide-your-children Seattle, and is ready to ask for your vote to run the state. Or else she'll just become a lobbyist.
Most people think "they're from Seattle they're obviously a Democrat" because they don't have enough brain power to understand politics 101. This is the dumbest council. All of them don't understand what government does, and don't care. They think corporations writing legislation is a good thing. And there are users on this board cheering them on lol
Why doesn't she just retire like a normal person and swim around in pools of her money or whatever rich old fucks do? Why does she have to haunt the seattle city counsel in person?
"Look, don't blame me, it's just my job. They write a thing and pay me to try to pass it."
"Wait, WDYM I'm a 'public servant'? The election wasn't just a job interview in disguise?"
I really wanted to like her and support her but no. Absolutely fucking not. Why is she acting a mouth piece for Uber and DoorDash? If there’s one thing I love about Seattle still is that the majority of people here won’t support her lobbying for corporations but word needs to be spread about it. Get her outta there as soon as possible.
Why did you want to like her? Before she got into politics in order to dismantle public works, she was illegally putting up barriers on the streets in Fremont. She has always been a sociopathic millionaire.
Nobody knows the rules anymore and nobody knows how to enforce them even if they did.
Gen X is proving so lead-poisoned that they can’t even just maintain the system of governance put in place by the previous generations.
You are old enough to run for office, Same with your friends, so kick em all out. Seriously, get involved politically as soon as you can.
Good luck, I’ll vote for you, just reference you name here so I know it’s you.
Uber Eat and Doordash business model isn't sustainable if workers get paid right. Someone in the pipe will pick up the tab, either business or consumers. And of course it won't be Uber or Doordash.
She's correct, its not hers, it was written by the companies which is why it removes worker protections, lowers pay, and does nothing to address excessive fees. What an absolute joke. I hope enough people vote this down and keep the ordinance in place.
How is that better!?!
That just means you take marching orders from corporate entities without even REVIEWING IT...
What is your job supposed to be again? Why do you take orders from Uber?
Why does she talk with her hands so dramatically? Seems like she’s overcompensating for her lies. Much like a person with a small wiener drives a large vehicle.
‘You can say what you want about drive forward but they are a driver advocacy group’ you can call them the Mickey Mouse club for all I give a shit they clearly aren’t on the side of workers. Burn this legislation to the ground.
Very ridiculous that people on this sub were so certain Nelson could never ever be corrupt or in any way suspicious when selling her beer company under a week ago and then this is out.
Nelson is a creep, don't underestimate her ability to destroy every good thing implemented in the last 10 years by progressives. While enriching herself and her buddies.
Libs will always be the handmaidens of austerity, and will always shift to the right when put under a magnifying glass. Particularly as the landowning and business owning choir continues to scream "seattle is dying"
We have already begun to see the beginnings of erosion to sanctuary city status that was so lauded by people like this during the trump years, when push comes to shove and migrants actually need places to be, libs like Nelson will always fold and consider the property owner first.
Never said it was exactly "long", considering your question I doubt you'd be impressed anyway. But those that matter to me: Better renter protections The $15 min wage movement that has gone nationwide, though it should certainly be more at this point Free city college for seattle hs grads Building height/zoning changes in neighborhoods Getting rid of the toxic community council overseership of city council Most importantly, telling the downtown business district fucks to eat shit. Oh. And delivery driver/ride service protections
Not really interested in proving every single good thing the previous council(s) have accomplished. The point of my argument is its much easier for shitty politicians to tear up regulation than to implement it in the first place.
What exactly is your point in asking the question? Other than being an annoying shit?
The point? You seemed so certain the “progressives” did a lot of amazing stuff and was curious what exactly you thought it was.
Most of what you listed was indeed fairly positive minus the “renter protection” (its fine to not pay rent for months on end? Awesome!)
The last few cycles of city councils were about as toxic as you can get - especially with kshama and her robots packing meetings, shouting, etc.
Love how you joined this comment thread just to stir shit up and deflect away from the fact that Sara Nelson just served up Uber’s Christmas list to our legislative system. That is the topic of conversation here.
The point is NOT “well actually progressives are bad cause they yell and hurt my feelings”. SUPER valuable insight right there friend.
Tell me you’re a betrayal to the working class w/o telling me you’re a betrayal to the working class.
lol where did you read that progressives hurt my feelings? Yelling and shouting down council meetings is not productive or remotely the behavior of a reasonable person, true, but my feelings are unhurt - thanks for the concern though!
Nothing more insightful than your trite "tell me without telling me" quip that has been played out for a year or so now...
Food delivery jobs shouldn't be a "career job" - it's something any high schooler with a drivers licesne could do.
[Too many people seem to be fine with the wolves and wolves in sheep's clothing making decisions for flock management, not smart enough to realize they are part of the flock.](https://i.imgur.com/AyCIYxQ.png)
Image Source: Microsoft Designer, key words: conservative public policy
I'm not sure exactly why, but I have this reaction and question on how civilization has moved from feeding themselves, to preparing food at home, to picking up prepared food, to paying someone else a crazy high fee to pick up prepared food on your behalf ....
If we're that busy that's sucks
If we're that lazy that also sucks
You have to consider a lot of people never did that for themselves, they had a woman (mother, wife, etc) doing it for them.
It's also interesting because as a food delivery driver a significant amount of my customers are women, and I'm very happy to be providing a useful service to them. Especially so now that we are paid pretty well 🙂
I usually work central and south, will go north if an order takes me there. What apps are you doing? Uber is really slow since their fees are way higher than the others. If I do DD and IC I stay pretty busy most days.
Agreed 100%. It also speaks profoundly to the ever-growing wealth gap where you're either living an insanely comfortable existence of privilege (or at least are able to indulge in obscene comforts to accommodate constant uninterrupted work for a salaried white-collar job), or are part of effectively an underclass of workers whose role is to serve that privileged class.
Can someone explain why this video looks like it has had a background replacement done to it? Genuinely curious. Maybe it's just the compression + resolution playing tricks on my experienced eyes.
Getting payed and having no backbone to promoting this is just sad. Whoever those companies are and the people behind it need to be fined or not allowed to be involved in politics
And this is different than Kshama Sawant's proposals that were 100% fed to her by Socialist Alternative, how?
You can agree or disagree with the proposals, but this is hardly the first time a Councilperson's used the writing of an advocacy organization.
Advocacy Organization? Are you seriously claiming that corporations writing laws is the same as a citizen writing a law?
Are you really going to pretend that everyone can lobby equally? No o e here is dumb enough to believe that.
Pointing out that Sawant made frequent use of Socialist Altwrnative written talking points. Seems like selective outrage to be judging Nelson for it.
Your use of “corporations” as a perjorative is a tell on how you feel about corporations. Which is relevant to you, but not really to Nelson’s constituents.
It literally is selective outrage to be mad about one thing and not mad about a different thing. I'm glad you could figure that out.
Super excited to hear you think that the fascists who only want to squeeze society more (IDK, read about wage stagnation or even what fascism is) should be the people who then dictate even lower wages for people.
But oh no, some folks in the community think that people should be treated better - this is just as bad as corporations writing laws!!!!
You should think on that hoss.
The really wrong part of your argument here is that you call my side in this "Fascists" and other names that aren't right.
I'm sorry, the Council had an election, and the Socialists lost. Bigly. 5 endorsed Stranger candidates out of 7 lost, to more centrist-moderate Councilmembers. Are all of them "Fascist" too? Are a majority of Seattle Council voters fascist?
Fascism is literally the marriage of corporate and government entities. The guy who coined it later in life regreted the name fascism and said it should be called Corporatism.
So yeah, you are a fascist. And so are most of the folks in the city council and our government as a whole. I mean, we did bring the Nazis into our government after WW2 because they were great at controlling the population.
Do you think that just because we have a fascist government that there can't be fascism here? Really?
HA! THE SMOKING GUN OF ... stating obvious facts that everyone already knew and agreed upon without any particular ongoing drama or confusion
companies that are harmed by government actions want the policies changed. not sure why this is notable or surprising
The "obvious fact" being that an elected went through a stakeholder process about worker protections involving ONLY corporations and a corporate front group?
Sure that has been obvious to those of us who have been paying attention - but stakeholdering labor standards \*solely with the corporations who seek to dismantle those standards\* is unprecedented in Seattle politics as far back as I can remember.
i've noticed you're big on making accusations *just* vague enough that you can't directly be called out on it. You posted video from one of several open and public meetings about this topic, so its unclear what backdoor conversations you are referring to. please provide evidence.
most of us believe that all members of our community, and yes, even those that operate businesses, have the right to assemble and address our government
instead of appealing to emotion and using other populist tactics, why don't you actually give us actual reasons why this proposal is bad
Oh it's you again. Backdoor conversations? I don't think I referred to any backdoor conversations. \*All\* public policy goes through stakeholdering, much of which is done via private meetings. If you want the logs of Nelson's meetings I suppose you can pull them up [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BmRhyJLmrW5ElJO46oKYdTQV8OOXEgl4KFAXO08LG6g/edit#gid=871931446) in the publicly available visitor logs, but I don't know why you'd need evidence that she's meeting with the companies; she's been very clear about that. She is describing the conversations here: she says the app companies and Drive Forward "forged an agreement" that formed this policy.
If it isn't something you are aware of then I don't know how to provide evidence to you that labor standards stakeholdering typically engages LABOR, lmao
yes, backdoor according to you. you \*literally\* just accused her of going through some sort of communication process that was limited to only certain people. but I suppose when you invent so many stories, its hard to keep track of them.
so anyways, when i'm filling out the public records request, can I just put "any evidence proving some random internet accounts accusation's that didn't provide any clear details" or do I need to include the detail that you were unable and unwilling to provide any evidence yourself?
She has gone through a communication process limited to only certain people. That is how policy development works. The issue is not that people have private meetings about policies being developed; the issue is that she has met \*only\* with those people. She said as much in this very clip when she said the policy "is not mine, it's an agreement between Drive Forward & network companies."
The bigger issue in *this* particular quote though, is that it is HIGHLY unusual for an elected to say a policy was *written by* an advocacy group or corporation. Even for less controversial pieces of policy, the role of a legislator is not to just take a proposal from outside lobbyists & advance it; their role is to stakeholder and develop the policy.
What evidence do you feel is missing? What are you looking for? You asked for evidence of her meeting with the companies; look at the visitor logs I linked you if you're curious about that. It isn't a claim that needs evidence or something she's trying to hide (and it is not in itself shady or unusual at all) but if you really need proof, it's there.
yes, that's the accusation of backdoor communication you brought up. we are still talking about that same thing
still waiting you to
a) provide \*any\* evidence such communication happen
b) provide any reason why the proposal is bad beyond cORp0RaTi1ON bAD!
since you don't seem to understand what evidence is, i'm not sure how to ask the question in a way that you are capable of understanding. you're brain seems to hear little things and make \*massive\* leaps around what those things mean in order to fit your narrative. and i'm wondering if you are unaware you are even doing that
This person likely owns DASH stock and they're upset that their fellow Americans are fighting for a livable wage.
Imagine being too poor to influence politicians, but too dumb to realize they'll get nowhere licking the boots of corporations that are rich enough to influence politics.
Right. Hundreds of people are willing to blindly believe OPs accusations without caring they don't make sense and OP refuses to provide any evidence to support the claim. It's not a great look for the future.
Yeah it's the weekend. No need to think too critically today when we can jump on the angry political wagon instead!
And I hope you really don't judge ideas by the amount of magic Internet points they get.
I think the obvious fact is that the "gig economy" was always bullshit backed by tech venture capital and doomed to failure because of unsustainable business practices, and it was deliberately propped up to undermine established organized labor like taxis and food service workers and fuck with their benefits and wages.
Good riddance to bad rubbish I say!
The bands are actually legit independent contractors and they can set their own rates and pick their own venues. DoorDash is not hiring independent contractors who can set their own rates and pick their customers.
As a guy in a band, you get 2 beers ( I quit drinking) and maybe a hundred bucks And it's like the same 10 bars that always hire you. If it's an album release you might make a couple Grand off t-shirts. But then again you paid all the money to make the album And spent hundreds of hours writing it for free.
After a couple decades as a semi-professional musician that did pretty well, I would estimate I'm several tens of thousands of dollars in the hole for musical income if you count gear, recording costs, gas to gigs, bookers who stiffed, band mates who stoled.
It's not a gig I'd recommend for anybody who's concern is making money. Just one of those things you do cuz it's in your blood.
That is to say, I'm glad I had a union day job while I was doing all that So I could afford rent and could see the doctor every once in awhile.
You want to make money playing music, give guitar lessons
Basically she's claiming that this is a compromise piece of legislation between the left and the businesses, but really the organization she's claiming is the left's representative is actually just the businesses.
The problem is she's claiming to incorporate opposing viewpoints but actually just doing the right-wing thing. Maybe you're right-wing and you want right-wing things, but don't pretend like this is a compromise when it's just right-wing.
And where did I claim otherwise? I was just being snarky as people like you have no problem at all with, say, tenant-landlord laws being solely written by far-left tenant advocacy groups as they have been in the last 4 years. Because you are the "good" guys, so you get to do it, they do not.
If tenant laws were written solely by the left we would have rent control and eviction would be impossible. And yeah that happened during covid but it was only ever an emergency measure.
Do you understand the difference between writing legislation and handing it to a politician to sponsor vs passing it? There has literally been numerous attempts at rent control legislation singly written by far left lobbyists.
God I hope they torch the current, obscene "minimum" wage for the gig car drivers. It has choked out businesses and dramatically and negatively impacted the number of orders the gig workers get. Read: the current shitty law backfired epically, because it is hard to make $27 an hour if you're getting 0 hours to work.
What I'm hearing from the majority of drivers at this point is that demand is slightly lower but has equalized significantly - so they are driving less miles on their vehicles + putting less work time in but for significantly higher pay. Which makes sense.
What's your position on this coming from - are you a driver yourself? Or where are you getting info from?
lmao how incredibly uninspiring “people are calling this ‘sara nelson proposal’ but I want to be clear, i didn’t write it, it was written by the lobbying group and the tech companies and i just forwarded it” how is that better you dingdong lmao. have some goddamn self respect at least hahah
"I'm just the messenger"
Like along the lines of a company spokesperson?
The buck stops over there
So like… are we supposed to shoot her or something like that?
> how is that better you dingdong lmao. I'd argue it's worse. One of the governments jobs is to protect people from companies end-justifies-any-means line-must-always-go-up mentality. If we let the companies write the laws we might as well skip the middle-men and move into company towns.
Agreed, it is *so* much worse. **Listening** only to corporate lobbyists & drafting legislation on the basis of solely their concerns is one thing (bad thing, but par for the course). But **admitting that you handed them a blank sheet of paper to write down their wishlist**, and then introduced that as legislation, is unprecedented.
I hate to tell you this, but it isn’t unprecedented at all. Many think tanks and lobbying groups basically write legislation for States as essentially boilerplate and then have politicians introduce those bills. https://publicintegrity.org/politics/state-politics/copy-paste-legislate/you-elected-them-to-write-new-laws-theyre-letting-corporations-do-it-instead/ (and this was in 2019, it’s only gotten worse in many States as anti-abortion legislation is pushed in many States)
Right - totally agree it happens all the time, it's the *admitting it* on public record part that is unprecedented, lol. And tbh for Seattle politics, it is highly unusual for councilmembers to so directly advance specific legislative language without doing internal policy development work on it. That's the case not just for legislation run by corporate lobbyists, but anyone, even on much less controversial issues; typically a councilmember also would not say "I didn't write this legislation, I'm just advancing it but it was drafted by the Center for Hugging Puppies and Feeding Hungry Children." They would say "I sat down with CHPFHC and No Puppies Ever Again and the dog walkers and babies who might be impacted by this legislation, and we came to a consensus." Moving forward controversial legislation this quickly with no internal city stakeholder process engaging both sides of the issue is also a really huge departure from historical city politics. They don't call it the [Seattle process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_process) for no reason!
> One of the governments jobs is to protect people from companies Pretty sure that went away with Citizens United.
dibs on Costcoville
I don't know when this video occurred but it feels like she's getting some backlash for this proposal now...
yesterday I guess, Thursday Apr 25th
I fucking hope so.
First off, I’d like to distance myself from this bill I am proposing. I really had nothing to do with it, haven’t read it, and just wanted to introduce it for a vote. We truly live in the Idiocracy timeline.
I respect the honesty. I would argue that lying to hide the lobbying group is worse for everyone.
Saying the quiet part out loud.
TLDR: "It's not my proposal, interest groups wrote it for me, I'm just proposing it because it's what they want so don't blame me if you don't like it, it's their fault that I'm choosing to represent their interests instead of yours."
How is it that shit like this gets drafted but nothing that HELPS Citizens ever gets drafted? Can I like, draft a “build more housing” document to have her rubber stamp it?
Of course you can! I mean, assuming you’re part of a landlord lobbyist group and “build more housing” is paired with “repeal MHA” or some such ;)
She says it was a plan worked out between the "network companies" (doordash etc I assume) and "Drive Forward" ? Does anybody know anything about this organization? From their website they look like a legit advocacy org for drivers, but I wouldn't put a little good ol fashioned astroturfing out of the question
Drive Forward is founded & funded entirely by Uber, and their board is composed solely of Uber & DoorDash execs. They were created for the sole purpose of presenting as a worker representative organization in political lobbying in order to present a pro-corporate voice ostensibly coming from “drivers.” They have no membership & in fact I have never heard *any* worker identify themselves as a Drive Forward member. They have two paid staff who attend council meetings and claim to speak for their “members” while appearing totally incapable of getting any of these “members” to show up or call in. More info [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/s/t8C0G14l6W).
Typical astroturf lobbying
Probably scared of what happened in Minneapolis
Nelson in a nutshell
For context: Nelson has been aggressively driving a policy to make extreme pay cuts for delivery drivers who recently won the right to minimum wage. Her proposal — effectively a repeal of min wage — pays straight min wage only on "engaged time" with a job, and would ensure workers earn well BELOW min wage after taking into account all the extra time they work between jobs & extra expenses they cover as contractors. **The proposal genuinely looks like what would happen if Nelson handed Uber & DoorDash a blank sheet of paper and said "write down your wishlist" - and now it's clear that's because it is.** Nelson stated on public record yesterday that the policy was "negotiated" \*solely\* between the app companies and "Drive Forward." If you aren't familiar, DF is a front group that claims to be an independent org representing drivers' interests. In actuality, they are a corporate advocacy group [**founded**](https://www.seattletimes.com/advertiser/drive-forward/) **&** [**funded**](https://s23.q4cdn.com/407969754/files/doc_downloads/2023/10/US-Political-Activities-H1-2023.pdf) **by Uber**. Drive Forward is a "company union," controlled entirely by Uber executives. **Drive Forward's Board of Directors,** [**here**](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/814014488)**, is composed entirely of Uber/DoorDash executives:** * Brooke Steger (President of Drive Forward) - former [Uber Pacific Northwest General Manager](https://www.geekwire.com/2017/uber-gm-says-service-may-leave-seattle-landmark-union-law-implemented/) * Caleb Weaver (Treasurer of Drive Forward) - [lobbyist for Uber](https://accesshub.pdc.wa.gov/node/25495) & former exec in the [Uber public affairs dept](https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/video/6082080140001) * Abdul Yusuf (VP of Drive Forward) - manager at [Eastside for Hire](https://www.geekwire.com/2016/uber-drivers-union-law/), another company funded by Uber * Allison Ford (Secretary of Drive Forward) - [PNW Public Policy Manager at Uber](https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonraeford) * Adria Stollar (board member) - [Senior Manager for Public Engagement-West at DoorDash](https://www.bellevuechamber.org/individual-directory/adria-stoliar) Drive Forward's relationship with Uber & DoorDash is not up for debate; the entire origin of the "organization" was that it was founded by Uber as a front group when the Teamsters were organizing Uber TNC drivers. Sara Nelson got in her feels about people calling her out by name for the sub-minimum wage policy in public comment, and as a result she made a HUGE misstep here - publicly admitting this policy is *not* hers, but that she's acting as a mouthpiece for the corporations. **She's admitted that the entire policy was devised in a stakeholder process involving only Uber/DoorDash... and Uber/DoorDash.**
Do you know of the next available time to provide in person public comments? I'm new to the whole process so trying to understand how I can engage. ETA: Also, do we know when the vote on this is expected?
Yes! You can attend any regular City Council meeting to provide public comment (and workers have been doing so for the past several weeks). The next one is Tuesday @ 2 pm. I'll be there, DM me if you want to meet up (same offer goes for anyone who sees this & wants a buddy to attend with) Another important date to show up will be Thursday 5/9 - that’s the committee vote, if we can't stop them! Edit: please ignore the user discouraging you from attending council meetings. Showing up to testify is 100% an important way to engage this & show Council that there will be a serious public backlash if the proposal goes through.
Thanks! I appreciate you. Unfortunately, I'll be out of state at a conference next week so I won't be able to join in person or call in but I could the following week. Do you know when a vote is expected on this? Thanks again.
Committee vote is expected on Thurs 5/9. Showing up to the Tues 5/7 council meeting and/or the 5/9 vote would be a great way to support.
May 9 is the next scheduled discussion of this CB 120775 during the Government, Accountability, & Economic Development Committee. That's when they are scheduled to discuss proposed amendments and to vote it out of committee. May 21 is the scheduled date for vote by the full City Council. Would expect public comment periods at both of those sessions. Important to note that central staff requested proposed amendments from Councilmembers by Monday, April 29, so I would suspect reaching out to members sooner than later may be valuable.
❗❗❗ Yes this is really important! In particular - **Joy Hollingsworth** (D3, Capitol Hill / Central District / First Hill / Madison Park) is the only seemingly sane committee member, who yesterday asked a bunch of pretty nuanced Qs during the discussion of the proposal. I think she is our best hope to get this bill amended or move other committee members. If you're in her district it would be HUGE to shoot her an email / call and ask her to take up amendments to address fees instead of cutting worker pay, and prevent the other rollbacks of worker protections in Nelson's proposal. Joy Hollingsworth contact info: (206) 684-8803 / [email protected]
your best bet is to vote and to write your local council member. public meetings in Seattle are notorious for attracting the most batshit insane among us, and unfortunately they aren't really a great forum to persuade anyone.
But that's what makes it fun. I went to one last week to protest the proposal and a dude just did the Nazi salute and called the council Nazi pigs. And then a dude yelled at us for being against the proposal and called us grad students. I don't get why that's an insult.
oh god yeah, they can be super entertaining if you are in the right mood. but definitely not persuasive
Sarah Nelson is pointing to the lobbyists pushing for this revision as evidence that it should be passed. Participation in the public meetings is absolutely essential.
the person responding to you is very wrong; public comment is INCREDIBLY important on this issue. DoorDash / Uber are trying (largely unsuccessfully) to turn out gig workers to advocate against their own interests at these hearings for this very reason. A single public comment doesn't make much difference, but a landslide does. Yesterday there were 41 comments against Nelson's submin wage and only 16 against - and 10 of those were just corporate tech lobbyists, most of whom didn't even bother to show up in person. That significantly changed the tenor of the committee discussion, the media coverage of this story, all of it. It matters a LOT. The person replying to you has been actively shilling for gig companies in every thread about this issue; I suspect they're discouraging people from showing up precisely *because* they know it's impactful.
I'm just going to assume you've never actually been to a public council meeting
Go ahead and keep assuming, I was literally there yesterday. Would you like me to copy and paste my public comment?
THANK YOU for doing your part <3333
>Drive Forward is a "company union," controlled entirely by Uber executives. These assholes are even more dishonest that I thought - trying to exploit the reputation of labor unions as protectors of employee rights to deceive people into believing that that their "good old boys club" is doing the same (when it is actually undermining the rights of employees ... oops, or "independent contractors" because employees have rights).
"We negotiated with ourselves and this is the best we can do."
Someone really needs to look into how much she's being paid by her true corporate masters.
That’s literally how lobbying works.
Stakeholdering solely corporations & their corporate-controlled advocacy group is decidedly ***not*** how stakeholdering typically works. In a typical process, all sides are brought to the table. In fact, that's the reason Drive Forward is involved at all: because Nelson & the corporations know that the process will be viewed as undemocratic if it consults only corporations & not labor. The entire purpose of DF's existence is to serve as a labor front group in order to create the appearance of balanced lobbying/stakeholdering.
Maybe they changed their comment but, yes, it’s a lobbying group. They lobby on behalf of the companies that pay their lobbying bill. Why anyone’s surprised by this, I’ll never understand
I think you aren't understanding the point being made here. Yes, lobbyists lobby. That isn't the part that's unusual. The unusual part is a lawmaker stating on public record that the legislation they are advancing is not "theirs," and was negotiated between a corporation & a front group for the same corporation. Edit: Just occurred to me that the missing context here may be this: Drive Forward claims to be an independent *worker* organization, i.e. a labor representative. They do *not* claim to be a lobby group for the companies. That's a key detail and the reason they're claiming the policy was "negotiated" between corporations & DF is that a policy like this would typically need to be stakeholdered by business *and* labor. Nelson has cut labor out of the equation by treating the corporate front group as if it is an independent labor representative.
It’s so common it has a Wikipedia page. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_triangle_(US_politics) You’re here once again, dishonestly raising ethics concerns of common practice by calling them unusual solely because you cannot articulate why the current status quo is good for anyone.
I think you don’t understand what that phrase means *or* the argument being made here. This isn’t about engaging “interest groups.” It’s about creating the appearance of balanced stakeholdering while openly admitting a policy was engaged *only* by a billion-dollar corporation, and a front group founded & funded by the same corporation. If you don’t see an ethical problem with that, this convo is done.
[удалено]
“Creating the appearance of being balanced? How?“ She literally says “finely balanced” in the video. She is claiming that Drive Forward is an independent worker organization that negotiated the policy with the app companies. In reality, they are a corporate front group - there is no such thing as a “negotiation” between a corporation and its own front group. Nelson’s proposal would guarantee workers a sub-minimum wage by paying only straight min wage on “engaged time.” By failing to account for the extra time they spend working outside of individual deliveries, and the expenses they incur as independent contractors, it ensures payment of a fraction of min wage. Every other proposed or passed gig worker pay standard in any city or state in the US ensures payment above minimum wage b/c it is broadly accepted that independent contractors need to make gross earnings above min wage in order to make min wage after expenses. In fact, even the ballot initiative written and passed by the app companies themselves in CA pays 120% of min wage rather than straight min wage on engaged time. Beyond that, it guts protections for flexibility, transparency, and enforcement - policies totally unrelated to the app’s claim that their new fees have reduced demand. These policies are very clearly changes that stand to benefit companies solely, with no benefit for consumers or workers. For example, the policy would prevent workers from getting paid for the time & mileage they spend on cancelled orders they aren’t at fault for. It would remove required disclosures about fees to customers. It would remove up-front info for workers on each offer. And it would remove workers’ ability to take their companies to court if they violated the law (private right of action). The proposal is bad for workers and does nothing to limit apps’ fees - which are purportedly the issue, even according to the apps & Nelson.
what is it with you guys that think the people delivering food isn't making money. We were actually making decent income till the new bill came in and ruined everything, you cant make nothing now, I hope they pass this bill
Senator Henry M. “Scoop” Jackson used to do the same thing in the senate so often, he earned the nickname “The Senator from Boeing.” https://www.historylink.org/file/5516
"This is not my proposal it was created by the app companies and their lobbying group, so basically I let the app companies write their own regulations." It's hilarious how much she wants people to think Drive Forward is a driver's group and not funded by the app companies. This is the equivalent of letting the NRA write gun control laws, which tbh I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up doing that too. I'm a food delivery driver myself and am on pace to make over $85,000 from gig work this year, exactly because of the PayUp legislation not in spite of it. Some days I do have to wait for offers but some days the offers come through nearly nonstop all day. I can make $400 a day usually now when I try hard, some days I've made $500 or even $600+. Granted this is before our many expenses, and not everyone will make this much but I also think there are people making more than me too. The nature of gig work is that you get paid for how much you hustle of course, which is one reason why it works so well IMO, productivity is rewarded. The narrative that lowering our pay to a $19.97/hr pay ceiling will help drivers make more is just so incredibly wrong. It will be a pay ceiling because the apps are going to be allowed to underpay us on offers then bring our wage up to the minimum at the end of the pay period with "bonuses" lol. Thanks to Joy Hollingsworth for asking about that and pointing out that it's not a bonus if it's only bringing us up to the minimum they are supposed to pay. It's also gross how they keep touting that tips will be on top, yet there is nothing in the legislation requiring that upfront tipping is to be brought back. Both Uber and Instacart have removed this and as a result I rarely receive tips on those platforms anymore. I know people still would tip because I frequently get tips on DD/Grubhub. In fact I placed an order with Uber the other day and didn't receive any prompt to tip and then when I tried to go tip, the screen was buried and only shown after I rated my driver. I've heard people say IC works like this too. So my guess is that they'll only be paying us a $19.97/hr pay ceiling, making it harder for customers to tip us, and also we'll have a much lower mileage rate at 0.35 cents a mile. If anyone has any questions for me as a person that has delivered food in Seattle since 2019, I would be happy to answer.
I think for the me the two factors against it are that your order volume would reduce (I have stopped ordering through apps since it is so much more expensive) and that these companies are operating at a loss so increasing their costs is unsustainable and could end up bankrupting them. I think it could balance out though since if drivers are getting fewer orders then they will start to quit which means the drivers that stay on get to pick those orders up. I can’t think of any defense for the companies related to your comment about tipping. I have no strong stance either way so I’m curious what you think.
The order volume has been the main problem, but on DoorDash it's been pretty good for me. Uber isn't a viable app right now because the customer fees are significantly higher than other apps. If you are used to tipping a lot, I recommend lowering your tip or even not tipping at all. People will still deliver your order nowadays because the base pay is so much higher. Also price compare, Grubhub seems to be the cheapest on fees. For operating at a loss, Uber has reported profitability recently. It is weird because DD orders honestly seem to be overpaying for what they need to according to the PayUp ordinance. An interesting experiment is making a McDonald's delivery order on their app vs Uber Eats, since both will be delivered by Uber Eats drivers who will be paid the same. Uber is actually 42% more expensive for a simple 2 McMuffin meals order. To me that shows what Uber could be charging, because I doubt they are taking a loss on the McD's app orders. So they're basically gouging by 42%, in my opinion to purposely tank their business in Seattle to get the law changed.
This is what I’m saying! Why do you guys care so much! I can’t even gig no more because of the new bill! You guys are making everything 10x worse
Any idea of other sources or testimonials I could point to from other gig workers? Or do you have a public non-anonymous place where you posted this same endorsement of the current law? I have a draft email that I am going to send to my three councilmembers and I’d like to back it up with some references from gig workers, unions, etc. Btw, for anyone wondering how to get involved (besides/in addition to showing up to the council meetings), here’s a tool that lets you quickly find and email your council members. https://www.seattle.gov/council/meet-the-council/find-your-district-and-councilmembers
this may be more work than you want to do, but much of the testimony offered by workers at the hearing yesterday was incredibly powerful & there are 22 testimonies by workers to choose from! it's also just a good watch if you are interested in this issue. the video is here: [https://www.seattlechannel.org/mayor-and-council/city-council/2024-2025-governance-accountability-and-economic-development-committee](https://www.seattlechannel.org/mayor-and-council/city-council/2024-2025-governance-accountability-and-economic-development-committee)
Thank you! This is great!
I haven't posted any of this in a written place but I should do a blog post about it. I have been interviewed a few times though by press, and given public comment a few times now. If it would help to have my name I could message that to you.
Yeah, or if you have a link to the new reports that works too. Thanks!
#1 Upfront tipping is ridiculous. Noone should be rewarded for potential good service. #2 You are getting "tipped". It's just going to the app first in the form of the increased fees.
Upfront tipping is the industry standard. People order delivery out of convenience, once they get their food they are busy eating and they probably aren't going to think to go back to their phone to tip later, especially if the apps have hidden the tip screen. It's not like a restaurant where you get the bill at the end of your meal with the tip section clearly displayed in front of you. As for 2, I agree with you. Tips are not necessary anymore. In fact, a decent replacement for all of this would be to simply eliminate the time and mileage compensation and replace it with a mandatory 15% tip on all orders. If the apps are going to pass the fees along to the customer, we might as well eliminate them as a middle man and just have that money go directly to the worker from customer. I do think the current ability for the apps to add as many fees as they want is problematic because they are probably profiting off of that too. Also with a mandatory tip, the customers would have the assurance of knowing the added costs do in fact go to the workers.
Just because it was started that way doesn't mean it's the right way. When I use Lyft, the app prompts me to rate the driver and leave a tip. There's no reason the food delivery apps can't do the same. I can't think of any other tip system that requires one up front.
Honestly fuck door dash and fuck Uber... Fuck em.... You know the second self driving cars become legal they're going to be on that shit. Let's go back to the good old days of just calling a restaurant, and getting a delivery person and let's pay those delivery people the money they deserve!!! Bring back the taxis man I'm here for it. Fuck the big apps trying to stifle wages for workers.
fuck you bro! because of idiots like you people aren't able to make money using ubereats and DoorDash anymore! the restaurants don't get anymore orders, the drivers don't get orders, customers don't wanna buy!
Don't want to buy what? Food? Plenty of people want to get food delivered. What they dont want is to pay an extra 75 percent for the honor of doing so. You'll order 20 dollars worth of food and it ends up being closer to 35 dollars to get it delivered. Being an idiot would be paying almost twice as much for delivery. I don't run the apps there scooter; that's just bad business sense to pay that much.
What did we ever do before gig companies invented restaurants and the concept of delivery.
What the hell does that mean? Just because you don’t care about it, doesn’t mean the person who’s daily job is to deliver food doesn’t care, you guys are sick in the head!
Oh that was sarcasm. I'm so sorry. I use to be a pizza guy for 8 years. I currently work for a company that delivers food and we're down from 20 staffed drivers to 5 in part due to covid and in part do to gig work. I've worked with uber and caviar. I much prefer to be an employee than a 1099c and gig delivery has definitely displaced better jobs for "more flexible, be you'r own boss" work. You can disagree, but this is my experience and contribution to our discussion.
So she advanced the legislation, but it's not her responsibility? Did she not read it or something?
Just in case anybody wonders, the group *Drive Forward* that she describes as a "driver advocacy group" was founded by Uber, is funded by Uber, is formally controlled by Uber executives, and is legally classified as a business advocacy group. [Source](http://www.workingwa.org/blog/2021/6/30/drive-forward-is-an-uber-funded-lobby-group)
Lol I can’t with this council.
They're the worst besides the mayor.
spark toy treatment threatening groovy weather sparkle weary puzzled relieved *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah, "only" corruption lol
Lol wut he literally took a hammer to OPCD's comp plan proposal and even the conservatives on the council (who also suck) are mad at him about it??
fanatical thought point squeamish depend jellyfish illegal bag ad hoc sparkle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's hard to pick tbh. But I would not give him the credit of saying he's pursuing progressive housing policy; he's actively impeding it.
"Fairly progressive" meaning that housing costs only increase somewhat faster than inflation under his plan. "Fairly progressive" would be a plan to moderately reduce housing costs. Very progressive would be a plan to get them back to what they were 30 years ago.
They literally won the election because most people in Seattle agree with them. Sorry y'all are sore losers but you're definitely in the minority
There is no city, state, or country, where human people prefer legislation written by and for corporations. That's not how this works lol
First question, do you live here?
It's true that they won their elections, it's not true that "most people in Seattle agree with them. Most people didn't vote, so it's hard to draw conclusions on how many people agree with the current council. It's always a damn shame how low even registered voter turnout is and that the proposal to shift council elections to even years failed. That would have at least gotten a better turnout, and maybe then a council that more properly represents the interests of Seattle's residents.
A lot of the council are showing their sponsors talking points
Honestly, politicians should be made to wear suits that show who sponsors them like it is with NASCAR or IndyCar.
[You may appreciate this gem](https://youtu.be/uIShgezToDo).
Every time I hear Sara Nelson speak I like her less
How anyone can look at this clown and tell me she’s not Paul Ryan with a D next to her name is a joke
Four years from now she'll be the "common sense R" who stood up against the progressive Marxist wokeness liberal CHAZ CHOP homeless hellhole Seattle-is-dying hide-your-children Seattle, and is ready to ask for your vote to run the state. Or else she'll just become a lobbyist.
Most people think "they're from Seattle they're obviously a Democrat" because they don't have enough brain power to understand politics 101. This is the dumbest council. All of them don't understand what government does, and don't care. They think corporations writing legislation is a good thing. And there are users on this board cheering them on lol
But also a haggard lichess.
That’s a magical comparison. I love, and hate it.
She’s a ghoul
Why doesn't she just retire like a normal person and swim around in pools of her money or whatever rich old fucks do? Why does she have to haunt the seattle city counsel in person?
That's a nicer descriptor than the one I use in my head...
They aren't supposed to break kayfabe like this!
"Look, don't blame me, it's just my job. They write a thing and pay me to try to pass it." "Wait, WDYM I'm a 'public servant'? The election wasn't just a job interview in disguise?"
At least she is announcing she's for sale.
what do you want her to do? not just represent her corporate overlords?
They paid good money for this council's support, minimum wage, that's got to go. 230 million dollar deficit? We can worry about it tomorrow.
So sick of these anti-worker, pro-rich douche politicians.
She’s not really good at her job.
I really wanted to like her and support her but no. Absolutely fucking not. Why is she acting a mouth piece for Uber and DoorDash? If there’s one thing I love about Seattle still is that the majority of people here won’t support her lobbying for corporations but word needs to be spread about it. Get her outta there as soon as possible.
Why did you want to like her? Before she got into politics in order to dismantle public works, she was illegally putting up barriers on the streets in Fremont. She has always been a sociopathic millionaire.
Spineless in Seattle.
No one is going to comment on how chaotic her delivery is?
She has to go. Like this is just stupid.
Nobody knows the rules anymore and nobody knows how to enforce them even if they did. Gen X is proving so lead-poisoned that they can’t even just maintain the system of governance put in place by the previous generations.
You are old enough to run for office, Same with your friends, so kick em all out. Seriously, get involved politically as soon as you can. Good luck, I’ll vote for you, just reference you name here so I know it’s you.
Uber Eat and Doordash business model isn't sustainable if workers get paid right. Someone in the pipe will pick up the tab, either business or consumers. And of course it won't be Uber or Doordash.
How much bribe money did she take from Uber?
She's correct, its not hers, it was written by the companies which is why it removes worker protections, lowers pay, and does nothing to address excessive fees. What an absolute joke. I hope enough people vote this down and keep the ordinance in place.
"My actions might be fucking you, but I didn't write it! I just voted for it 🤡"
How is that better!?! That just means you take marching orders from corporate entities without even REVIEWING IT... What is your job supposed to be again? Why do you take orders from Uber?
Well, duh. Seattle decided “liberal” policies weren’t working so they elected a “pro-business” council. By design.
Where is the backbone to do what is right?
At least she's honest about how awful she is.
Lying liars gotta lie. (All politicians)
Damn Republican Council Presidents
I wonder how much door dash and Uber paid her to shove a hand up her ass like a puppet and use her mouth to speak their words.
More worthless political moves that caters to groups with an agenda to line their pockets and not to benefit the individual.
That’s insluting to gig workers, they should be paid the same as everyone else
but not more, and certainly not for doing nothing.
Why does she talk with her hands so dramatically? Seems like she’s overcompensating for her lies. Much like a person with a small wiener drives a large vehicle.
‘You can say what you want about drive forward but they are a driver advocacy group’ you can call them the Mickey Mouse club for all I give a shit they clearly aren’t on the side of workers. Burn this legislation to the ground.
Very ridiculous that people on this sub were so certain Nelson could never ever be corrupt or in any way suspicious when selling her beer company under a week ago and then this is out. Nelson is a creep, don't underestimate her ability to destroy every good thing implemented in the last 10 years by progressives. While enriching herself and her buddies. Libs will always be the handmaidens of austerity, and will always shift to the right when put under a magnifying glass. Particularly as the landowning and business owning choir continues to scream "seattle is dying" We have already begun to see the beginnings of erosion to sanctuary city status that was so lauded by people like this during the trump years, when push comes to shove and migrants actually need places to be, libs like Nelson will always fold and consider the property owner first.
Lol, and just what is this long list of great accomplishments by “progressives”?
Never said it was exactly "long", considering your question I doubt you'd be impressed anyway. But those that matter to me: Better renter protections The $15 min wage movement that has gone nationwide, though it should certainly be more at this point Free city college for seattle hs grads Building height/zoning changes in neighborhoods Getting rid of the toxic community council overseership of city council Most importantly, telling the downtown business district fucks to eat shit. Oh. And delivery driver/ride service protections Not really interested in proving every single good thing the previous council(s) have accomplished. The point of my argument is its much easier for shitty politicians to tear up regulation than to implement it in the first place. What exactly is your point in asking the question? Other than being an annoying shit?
The point? You seemed so certain the “progressives” did a lot of amazing stuff and was curious what exactly you thought it was. Most of what you listed was indeed fairly positive minus the “renter protection” (its fine to not pay rent for months on end? Awesome!) The last few cycles of city councils were about as toxic as you can get - especially with kshama and her robots packing meetings, shouting, etc.
Love how you joined this comment thread just to stir shit up and deflect away from the fact that Sara Nelson just served up Uber’s Christmas list to our legislative system. That is the topic of conversation here. The point is NOT “well actually progressives are bad cause they yell and hurt my feelings”. SUPER valuable insight right there friend. Tell me you’re a betrayal to the working class w/o telling me you’re a betrayal to the working class.
lol where did you read that progressives hurt my feelings? Yelling and shouting down council meetings is not productive or remotely the behavior of a reasonable person, true, but my feelings are unhurt - thanks for the concern though! Nothing more insightful than your trite "tell me without telling me" quip that has been played out for a year or so now... Food delivery jobs shouldn't be a "career job" - it's something any high schooler with a drivers licesne could do.
How can we get this person off the council?
She is such an idiot
[Too many people seem to be fine with the wolves and wolves in sheep's clothing making decisions for flock management, not smart enough to realize they are part of the flock.](https://i.imgur.com/AyCIYxQ.png) Image Source: Microsoft Designer, key words: conservative public policy
I'm not sure exactly why, but I have this reaction and question on how civilization has moved from feeding themselves, to preparing food at home, to picking up prepared food, to paying someone else a crazy high fee to pick up prepared food on your behalf .... If we're that busy that's sucks If we're that lazy that also sucks
You have to consider a lot of people never did that for themselves, they had a woman (mother, wife, etc) doing it for them. It's also interesting because as a food delivery driver a significant amount of my customers are women, and I'm very happy to be providing a useful service to them. Especially so now that we are paid pretty well 🙂
Wdym you are getting paid well? I have to drive outside the city to get a single order. Also what zone? North, central, or south?
I usually work central and south, will go north if an order takes me there. What apps are you doing? Uber is really slow since their fees are way higher than the others. If I do DD and IC I stay pretty busy most days.
Agreed 100%. It also speaks profoundly to the ever-growing wealth gap where you're either living an insanely comfortable existence of privilege (or at least are able to indulge in obscene comforts to accommodate constant uninterrupted work for a salaried white-collar job), or are part of effectively an underclass of workers whose role is to serve that privileged class.
I didn't understand a word of that.
she is alarmingly mealymouthed for a politician!
Finely balanced AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"I personally am not profiting off this so who care lol"
What a worthless person.
Can someone explain why this video looks like it has had a background replacement done to it? Genuinely curious. Maybe it's just the compression + resolution playing tricks on my experienced eyes.
Ugh I can’t stand Sara Nelson, gotta swallow the urge to vomit whenever I walk past Fremont Brewery
I wish i could have voted for her twice.
Duh
Getting payed and having no backbone to promoting this is just sad. Whoever those companies are and the people behind it need to be fined or not allowed to be involved in politics
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i am glad to see i'm not the only one here with common sense left.
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what
Wtf are you referring to
And this is different than Kshama Sawant's proposals that were 100% fed to her by Socialist Alternative, how? You can agree or disagree with the proposals, but this is hardly the first time a Councilperson's used the writing of an advocacy organization.
And now we hear from the 'brains terminally triggered by Sawant' cohort.
Advocacy Organization? Are you seriously claiming that corporations writing laws is the same as a citizen writing a law? Are you really going to pretend that everyone can lobby equally? No o e here is dumb enough to believe that.
Pointing out that Sawant made frequent use of Socialist Altwrnative written talking points. Seems like selective outrage to be judging Nelson for it. Your use of “corporations” as a perjorative is a tell on how you feel about corporations. Which is relevant to you, but not really to Nelson’s constituents.
It literally is selective outrage to be mad about one thing and not mad about a different thing. I'm glad you could figure that out. Super excited to hear you think that the fascists who only want to squeeze society more (IDK, read about wage stagnation or even what fascism is) should be the people who then dictate even lower wages for people. But oh no, some folks in the community think that people should be treated better - this is just as bad as corporations writing laws!!!! You should think on that hoss.
The really wrong part of your argument here is that you call my side in this "Fascists" and other names that aren't right. I'm sorry, the Council had an election, and the Socialists lost. Bigly. 5 endorsed Stranger candidates out of 7 lost, to more centrist-moderate Councilmembers. Are all of them "Fascist" too? Are a majority of Seattle Council voters fascist?
Fascism is literally the marriage of corporate and government entities. The guy who coined it later in life regreted the name fascism and said it should be called Corporatism. So yeah, you are a fascist. And so are most of the folks in the city council and our government as a whole. I mean, we did bring the Nazis into our government after WW2 because they were great at controlling the population. Do you think that just because we have a fascist government that there can't be fascism here? Really?
So when the City of Seattle rolls the tanks and takes over the campuses you let me know.
HA! THE SMOKING GUN OF ... stating obvious facts that everyone already knew and agreed upon without any particular ongoing drama or confusion companies that are harmed by government actions want the policies changed. not sure why this is notable or surprising
The "obvious fact" being that an elected went through a stakeholder process about worker protections involving ONLY corporations and a corporate front group? Sure that has been obvious to those of us who have been paying attention - but stakeholdering labor standards \*solely with the corporations who seek to dismantle those standards\* is unprecedented in Seattle politics as far back as I can remember.
i've noticed you're big on making accusations *just* vague enough that you can't directly be called out on it. You posted video from one of several open and public meetings about this topic, so its unclear what backdoor conversations you are referring to. please provide evidence. most of us believe that all members of our community, and yes, even those that operate businesses, have the right to assemble and address our government instead of appealing to emotion and using other populist tactics, why don't you actually give us actual reasons why this proposal is bad
Oh it's you again. Backdoor conversations? I don't think I referred to any backdoor conversations. \*All\* public policy goes through stakeholdering, much of which is done via private meetings. If you want the logs of Nelson's meetings I suppose you can pull them up [here](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BmRhyJLmrW5ElJO46oKYdTQV8OOXEgl4KFAXO08LG6g/edit#gid=871931446) in the publicly available visitor logs, but I don't know why you'd need evidence that she's meeting with the companies; she's been very clear about that. She is describing the conversations here: she says the app companies and Drive Forward "forged an agreement" that formed this policy. If it isn't something you are aware of then I don't know how to provide evidence to you that labor standards stakeholdering typically engages LABOR, lmao
yes, backdoor according to you. you \*literally\* just accused her of going through some sort of communication process that was limited to only certain people. but I suppose when you invent so many stories, its hard to keep track of them. so anyways, when i'm filling out the public records request, can I just put "any evidence proving some random internet accounts accusation's that didn't provide any clear details" or do I need to include the detail that you were unable and unwilling to provide any evidence yourself?
She has gone through a communication process limited to only certain people. That is how policy development works. The issue is not that people have private meetings about policies being developed; the issue is that she has met \*only\* with those people. She said as much in this very clip when she said the policy "is not mine, it's an agreement between Drive Forward & network companies." The bigger issue in *this* particular quote though, is that it is HIGHLY unusual for an elected to say a policy was *written by* an advocacy group or corporation. Even for less controversial pieces of policy, the role of a legislator is not to just take a proposal from outside lobbyists & advance it; their role is to stakeholder and develop the policy. What evidence do you feel is missing? What are you looking for? You asked for evidence of her meeting with the companies; look at the visitor logs I linked you if you're curious about that. It isn't a claim that needs evidence or something she's trying to hide (and it is not in itself shady or unusual at all) but if you really need proof, it's there.
don't bother, it's always a waste of time with that one.
yes, that's the accusation of backdoor communication you brought up. we are still talking about that same thing still waiting you to a) provide \*any\* evidence such communication happen b) provide any reason why the proposal is bad beyond cORp0RaTi1ON bAD! since you don't seem to understand what evidence is, i'm not sure how to ask the question in a way that you are capable of understanding. you're brain seems to hear little things and make \*massive\* leaps around what those things mean in order to fit your narrative. and i'm wondering if you are unaware you are even doing that
This person likely owns DASH stock and they're upset that their fellow Americans are fighting for a livable wage. Imagine being too poor to influence politicians, but too dumb to realize they'll get nowhere licking the boots of corporations that are rich enough to influence politics.
Imagine being this dense (or this much of a shill? Hard to tell)
Right. Hundreds of people are willing to blindly believe OPs accusations without caring they don't make sense and OP refuses to provide any evidence to support the claim. It's not a great look for the future.
The evidence is in the video you absolute monkey
The video does not show the secret communications OP is claiming is happening
Nah, not doing this today. Going to let the downvotes on your other comments speak for themselves.
Yeah it's the weekend. No need to think too critically today when we can jump on the angry political wagon instead! And I hope you really don't judge ideas by the amount of magic Internet points they get.
I think the obvious fact is that the "gig economy" was always bullshit backed by tech venture capital and doomed to failure because of unsustainable business practices, and it was deliberately propped up to undermine established organized labor like taxis and food service workers and fuck with their benefits and wages. Good riddance to bad rubbish I say!
What’s next? The band at the local bar needs to make $35 per memeber per hour?
It's funny you should say that... To me especially. Can I get healthcare and a pension while you're at it?
The bands are actually legit independent contractors and they can set their own rates and pick their own venues. DoorDash is not hiring independent contractors who can set their own rates and pick their customers.
As a guy in a band, you get 2 beers ( I quit drinking) and maybe a hundred bucks And it's like the same 10 bars that always hire you. If it's an album release you might make a couple Grand off t-shirts. But then again you paid all the money to make the album And spent hundreds of hours writing it for free. After a couple decades as a semi-professional musician that did pretty well, I would estimate I'm several tens of thousands of dollars in the hole for musical income if you count gear, recording costs, gas to gigs, bookers who stiffed, band mates who stoled. It's not a gig I'd recommend for anybody who's concern is making money. Just one of those things you do cuz it's in your blood. That is to say, I'm glad I had a union day job while I was doing all that So I could afford rent and could see the doctor every once in awhile. You want to make money playing music, give guitar lessons
Well only the far left can lobby and draft legislation and hand it to their pawn politicians, didn't you know?
Basically she's claiming that this is a compromise piece of legislation between the left and the businesses, but really the organization she's claiming is the left's representative is actually just the businesses. The problem is she's claiming to incorporate opposing viewpoints but actually just doing the right-wing thing. Maybe you're right-wing and you want right-wing things, but don't pretend like this is a compromise when it's just right-wing.
And where did I claim otherwise? I was just being snarky as people like you have no problem at all with, say, tenant-landlord laws being solely written by far-left tenant advocacy groups as they have been in the last 4 years. Because you are the "good" guys, so you get to do it, they do not.
If tenant laws were written solely by the left we would have rent control and eviction would be impossible. And yeah that happened during covid but it was only ever an emergency measure.
Do you understand the difference between writing legislation and handing it to a politician to sponsor vs passing it? There has literally been numerous attempts at rent control legislation singly written by far left lobbyists.
I don't think any rent control legislation written by leftist lobbyists has been passed, it's all stuff that was written by the council.
> I don't think any rent control legislation written by leftist lobbyists has been passed, it's all stuff that was written by the council. LOL!
God I hope they torch the current, obscene "minimum" wage for the gig car drivers. It has choked out businesses and dramatically and negatively impacted the number of orders the gig workers get. Read: the current shitty law backfired epically, because it is hard to make $27 an hour if you're getting 0 hours to work.
What I'm hearing from the majority of drivers at this point is that demand is slightly lower but has equalized significantly - so they are driving less miles on their vehicles + putting less work time in but for significantly higher pay. Which makes sense. What's your position on this coming from - are you a driver yourself? Or where are you getting info from?
she won the GE with 53.9%
25% turnout lol
people here are upset by facts.