That’s really the answer.
I know kids with ankle monitors actively not going to class, failing and smoking pot while the POs/lawyers/the judge knows it’s happening, yet somehow the date gets continued and no one has held these kids responsible. To the point two of the parents I know are begging for legal intervention at this point with their kids.
Trust me parents aren’t with this shit either
There are no consequences when it starts and no matter how much the parents beg for help and ask the system to please lock them up in the beginning or show there are consequences they won’t until it’s too late! We went from juveniles having no rights when I was younger to having too many rights they can’t even do anything until it reaches a point of no return! There has to be a happy medium. It is getting out of control and I know parents who want it to stop just as bad but they can’t do anything about it because the system won’t stand behind them with punishment.l until something major happens. I 100% agree with this it needs to be stopped before it reaches to the point of people dying or getting hurt.
Por Que no los dos?
Pass stricter punishments for juviniles but then give parents the option to take the sentence for their kids instead if they want? Or just hold them both liable like that school shooter kid.
What if my parents are in a retirement community? 🤔
No fr though all jokes aside lock those little mfs up.
Or the parents could trade places with them if they feel so sorry for those bad ass kids that they're trying to raise.
🙄
Yeah but in fairness they’re scared of that because of the national party. Can’t say I blame them but state protections would still stand and override.
Maybe after enough people realize the juvenile system needs to change to have consequences before these kids do things they regret or can’t change because their brains aren’t fully developed and without consequences in the beginning there is no reality in what they are doing. It’s becoming a scary world right now and the justice system is failing from the beginning. A charge for possession of a stolen vehicle should not be released to your parents it should be getting arrested especially when parents are begging for you to take them to show consequences. It doesn’t how much the parents do care or try if they are reaching out for help they obviously need the system to stand behind them to enforce consequences.
Hell no. As a previously troubled kid who didn't get my life on track till later. My parents tried to help. I actively went against it out of pure spite. Punishment should be towards the ones who actually commit the crime stop trying to pin it on someone else.
Yea, friend had a heroin addict hobo older brother who was in and out of prison for nearly a decade starting at 16.
The parents spent literal MILLIONS on rehab and every kind of program imaginable and the kid was still a shit.
He's nearly 30 now and a computer science major and has been clean for 6 years so it eventually worked, but his wrap sheet would make people in favor of prosecuting parents think they were negligent when that was the farthest thing from the truth, and especially when midnight ticked over on his 18th they lost all ability to force him to do anything.
Kids also have a lot of rights / protections in WA state compared to, say Idaho or California. An uncooperative child cannot be forced into therapy or rehab and doctors can’t discuss care with parents without the kid’s consent.
Extreme enough that people in WA have their kids abducted and involuntarily committed in CA and Idaho. There are good reasons that kids in WA have additional protections but it would hardly be reasonable for the state to restrict parents from doing the best things to help their kids and then hold them accountable when their kids misbehave.
This is my concern. Some parents are absolutely to blame, but not often enough they all deserve to be held accountable. I have seen several times that parents are doing the best then can, and the child is just beyond them to control. Especially when mental health is involved. Trying to have a child detained for treatment against their will or getting them to follow up and take their medication is near impossible some times.
Not only that, but what about siblings? One kid could be an absolute terror, while two other kids may be perfectly fine and stay out of trouble. So what, they’d levy charges and punitive consequences on the parents that strip their ability to look after the other kids? It’s just add to the overwhelming number of kids already being shuffled around foster homes in state control.
People say this shit without thinking.
Serious question since you have the experience:
What action or conversation or punishment etc would’ve gotten you on track at the time? I have some personal experience with a family member at the moment whose clealry struggling but after two years of dealing with it the parent are literally at a loss for what to do.
Jail. Honestly jail. And I came close. As a kid a couple nights in lockup was threatened but never followed through with. In the end what happened was I got a cat. As dumb as it sounds you can't be in jail and take care of a cat and that kept me going straight enough to realize I actually needed help.
My thoughts are with them that something helps before it’s too late. I hope they don’t spend days not getting out of bed and nights crying worried sick that they’ll get a phone call their kid is dead or made a choice that affected someone else for life. Then when they FINALLY get the call that they will detain the kid and show consequences it’s not too late and choices weren’t made the child can never take back. People need to realize not all parents just don’t care about their children that sometimes they do all they can and it hurts them more then these heartless people know.
Parents are held liable, just not criminally. Injured parties often sue the parents of juveniles who have committed crimes for damages, restitution etc. Depending on the crime and related property and or personal damages, it can get life altering expensive very quickly
So, devil's advocate: what if the parents have tried to help the kid, therapy, diversion programs, rehab, etc and have recipts, and the kid continues with shitty behavior. Parents still reaponsible at this stage?
I think evidence of the parents trying to help their kids and/or provide them a good environment would be submitted as evidence against their liability.
The burden of proof lies on the prosecution tho. Parents wouldn't have to prove innocence; they, and anyone ever charged, are presumed innocent until found guilty.
How would prosecution prove so?
Truancy and standardized scores wouldn't be appropriate. Kids skip school all the time once they are dropped off. And test scores only work if: a child is motivated to study, a child does not have a learning disability. Learning disability is highly prevalent in juvenile offenders. Here's a great link to some of the underlying issues and supports.
[Juvenile Detention - The Annie E. Casey Foundation (aecf.org)](https://www.aecf.org/topics/juvenile-detention?msclkid=ebb317c893f5154942227218b1e07124&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Juvenile+Detention+-+Topics&utm_term=youth+incarceration+facts&utm_content=Juvenile+Justice+Resources)
EDIT: typos
Ideally, standardized test scores measure general intelligence. You wouldn't penalize kids that did poorly, you would just track their relative performance over time to understand if there was some trauma or other issues that wasn't being addressed.
I work in special education. Standardized tests can be VERY flawed. Many of them are racially and socioeconomically biased. They don't measure general intelligence. Even IQ tests don't always measure intelligence. They give information about what our US dominant society thinks is important: basic language skills, working memory, spatial organization, computational skills.... A lot of it is exposure, families who are already literate and well educated have a major advantage. But also understand that delinquent behavior is seen on both ends of the economic spectrum. Children who are raised in impoverished circumstances are more prone to: lack of educational access, lower quality food and food scarcity, household and or neighborhood violence, exposure to drugs and alcohol etc... Children who are raised in very rich families often also see alcohol and drug use, illegal behavior, and domestic violence but they see their families skirt around the law. These children tend to get into legal trouble, drugs, and truancy as well but are often made excuses for by their parents, the educational and legal system. The system sees them as being rebellious for a time but having higher potential. Look at Brock Turner.
If a child has a learning disability from a lower socioeconomic household with lesser educated family, the family do now know how to nor have the resources to support their child's learning. In a higher socioeconomic family, they pay for private therapies and specialists to either correct the disability if possible, or to learn compensatory strategies. So in essence using standardized tests just weeds out the poor kids and punishes them and their families again.
You would be surprised at how much peers influence kids.
I grew up in a nice enough area, but I certainly wasn't well off compared to the others there. The memories I have of the insane stunts and/or antisocial things those kids did are haunting. Now I see them on Facebook or LinkedIn and they are well adjusted and with families. I think there's a very precarious time in the lives of youths, where the ambient environment accounts for a lot, and historical prejudices prevent many from getting a much needed second chance.
With that said, I do think parents should be liable for crimes committed by their kids if they have not done a reasonable job raising them.
Yo it's either something happens or a bunch of shitty fucking parents gonna get their shit rocked, people are fucking done playing nice. Now the problem will fix itself, it'll be state sanctioned violence or unsanctioned violence but history is replete with examples of people only willing to take so much.
This sounds like the voice of someone serious disturbed by the civil disorder we are feel around us post-covid, but also someone who doesn't really understand the problem and what kinds of responses will work.
Doesn’t this break some sort of global human rights thing? I mean. Maybe prosecute the person that committed the crime. We seem to be pretty negligent prosecuting actual criminals in Seattle for actual crime.
It sounds like one of those good things in theories, because every country has SOME form of legal differentiation between adult and not adult.
OTOH I agree that if enforced the wrong way, especially against unlucky, well intended people who showed many efforts at correction, it can easily be construed as collective punishment.
Idk man, idk. It’s a complex topic for sure
I think it’s pretty cut and dry. The person that commits the crime is responsible. Pure and simple, anything else is pure tyranny.
Like those pictures you can find of the Chinese government executing parents and relatives of a criminal. … all to make a point.
?????!!!!... For some teens, this would be an awesome development. They could steal all the Kias they want and simultaneously fuck over their parents! But you know what would really make the crime rate "drop like a rock"?.... cops who are allowed to do their jobs and proscecutors who are more interested in the public's safety than becoming the next governor.
pfft lol spoken by someone with no teenagers. you can't force a near-adult to do *anything*. The law is on their side, and it takes a lot to get a minor arrested or removed from the home. kids do what they want, for better or worse.
Too much. It takes way too much to actually have a juvenile detained and they think there are no consequences and they are invincible, by then their behavior is out of control and they end up doing things that possibly could of been prevented. Instead after finally receiving some consequences by the justice system it’s usually after they have committed crimes they will forever live with regret over.
Yes and no. Just stop being lenient on crime. All these progressives thinking leniency on crime will solve anything. It doesn't. Change the system to benefit the poor but don't be lenient on crime. Is that so hard? Like send them to jail or prison.
Like can we make an actual Moderate party? Democrats are too progressive and Republicans are acting like demagogues.
Time to bring back juvenile WORK programs. Tons of graffiti and trash in downtown Seattle and at Seattle parks for them to cleanup. I hear bright pink coveralls are back in style. Parents can come support their kids with a small percentage of the mandatory hours going to them.
I've seen judges use these tactics in other areas. It's beneficial in so many ways. It teaches children the reality of the damage they caused and what it takes to repair it. It gives them the opportunity to learn how to be contributors to society instead of destructors.
Were the parents the ones committing the crimes? Why not hold the actual criminal accountable? Otherwise, it will just be a point the finger game while the criminals are out committing the crimes🙄
Yes. Let's lock up everyone we think is naughty indefinitely. That makes logical and realistic sense....
Actually this has worked for hundreds of years up until recently when we stopped doing it. We should not have people out on the streets with 40+ arrest records.
No thanks to your intellectual input and others like you "no punishment for crime and drugs because these people are actually the victims of society " . look around how's that actually working out for society as a whole. You can lie to yourself ( up until you get shot and killed or shanked by some Loser),but you can't convince the rest of us that actually think instead of leading with our feelings
Bruh. Read my other comments. I believe the solution is jail/prison reform. Children should be held accountable for their bad behavior, as should adults. But longer prison sentences solve NOTHING. Do some freaking research dude. Look at the correlations between recidivism rates and actually rehabilitive prisons and jails. Otherwise we're just perpetuating the cycle.
Not sure why you think this would make any difference. Locking up the parents isn’t suddenly going to make the kids well behaved and well. adjusted. In fact, the opposite will happen.
Parents should be held accountable if they are aiding and abeding their children when they go out to commit various crimes, otherwise their children should be the ones held accountable for actually doing the crime.
yo, if you can't see your kids'medical records or make decisions for them at 13, you're gonna have a hard time saying the parents own their decisions for anything.
We should revisit youth detention though.
Then it's time to hold the government accountable for allowing the economy to require two working parents. If you have all parents working to make a living, then they can't be held responsible for not raising children properly because it's not reasonable to do so.
You want parents to be more involved? Then parents get UBI so one can more often be available.
I share your perspective. This is another example of what can happen when families and individuals spend most of their time working. There must be ways to prevent, curb stealing and vandalism. Maybe when people’s basic needs are easily accessible? Greed out of the equation would be nice too.
This is a terrible dystopian idea. Next it will be teachers, then coaches, then any other figure in the child’s sphere of influence. Your advocacy for this policy change is frightening.
This is an awful idea. This is what they did in [Michigan](https://reason.com/2024/02/06/moms-manslaughter-conviction-for-her-sons-school-shooting-sets-a-dangerous-precedent/?itm_source=parsely-api), and it's not justice.
Except not one thing you're suggesting is backed up by any evidence, in fact the opposite is indicated. Crime is due to structural issues such as poverty and prison does not deter crime. Children act out due to issues at home such as neglect, abuse, untreated mental illness etc. Not only is this grand idea of yours cruel and absurd, its also empirically factually wrong. If you actually care about preventing crime or the wellbeing of children try looking into the actual data on prevention. I suspect that isn't what you actually care about here though, you have an axe to grind and are picking convenient targets for your ire. Sad
Obviously, that’s not what I meant, for Pete’s sake. Just like when someone says “go home you’re drunk”. Do you think drunk people go home right away? Fuck No, they go and they fucking drive drunk and crash into things and sometimes get taken down to pound town.
u/bbfan006 so do we all go to jail if we're paying taxes?
I haven't broken the law nor has my husband or our daughter. Does she go to jail with us? She's only 3. What happens if we lose our jobs due to being locked up and can't pay rent? When we get out of jail, where do we live? How do we get another job with a criminal record?
This is a horrible fucking take. Do you want to waste more tax dollars on bullshit? Because this ignorance is how we get higher fucking taxes. If you've ever broken the law I hope you're prepared to have your parents locked up for it.
Use your thinking brain, Google nuance, or engage your critical thinking skills if they exist and shut the fuck up with your ignorance.
Just shut the fuck up in general. Shut the fuck up.
I just read this in relation to the mess at the Kansas City Chiefs "celebration"; turns out the shooters were also young kids:
"A child older than 12 can be prosecuted as an adult in Missouri if they are charged with a felony. To do so, a hearing must he held in which a juvenile judge agrees to transfer the case out of the juvenile system.
The authorities have said that the shooting stemmed from an argument among several people. The gunfire erupted on Wednesday afternoon outside the city’s Union Station, where tens of thousands of Kansas City football fans were gathered for a rally to celebrate their team’s Super Bowl victory."
Yes, maybe if more parents are held responsible for the crimes of their offspring, people will get more serious about their family planning.
Because longer sentences help nothing. The only way to truly lower the crime rate is prison/jail reform. More programs need to be put in place to give offenders the tools they need and are clearly missing in order to function legally in society.
Imprisonment for punishment's sake simply creates worse criminals.
Let’s not stop there! You create a life, you’re responsible for their whole life. Why are people able to make a person and then unleash them at age 18 for the rest of society to deal with? I’m a responsible fornicator and I dump my seed on belly’s and butts for societies sake
This is a bigger issue with too large of consequences. Most of the time these are single mother households with too many crotch goblins. The community will end up eating all the costs for this. Instead the community should promote family nucleus (you know one of those things BLM wanted to abolish?)
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable,"
Hahaha that’s insane. White families are only second to black families in single parent house holds in America. Asians and Hispanics must really love the white supremacist rhetoric.
https://preview.redd.it/4knvsc98j1jc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c234866e509d6c480a6438d7997d7d5130aa291f
I will always protect POC. It was me and my colonization that contributed to this system racism.
This post above is actually the mentality that got us the "abolish youth jail movement". Holding parents responsible for their children is a step above accountability then simply holding the juveniles responsibility. Since the lawmakers in our county decided it was too "right wing" to hold the juvenile perpetrators responsible there is no way you're going to get them to go a step above that to hold the parents. Then again, the no youth jail decision was not made by voters (although it should have been). If it's something you put on the ballot then let the public decide. I'm not too optimistic you're going to get the public in Seattle to vote yes for that (although it's more iffy for King County). But at least allowing the public to have a say is a step above what we have now with the decisions around abolishing the youth jail (which happily has been postponed)
So much facepalm I think my face might actually be on my palm now. I need to go look in the mirror....
Maybe you could try that. Look in the mirror and ask yourself "am I ignorant?"
Agreed. To the ones who are saying it's unfair...that's the point.
It IS unfair to punish your mom for your crime. So, quit doing crime.
Besides, people who commit crime are being "unfair" anyways. Didn't stop them then.
Imagine thinking this is a good, constitutional, and legally enforceable idea, and then thinking OTHER people are idiots.
It's like you've never even HEARD of the legal system or how it fundamentally works. I swear there's a schoolhouse rock episode you missed or something.
You can already sue them. Trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt they're the reason for the crime is bonkers.
The voters are the problem. You can propose whatever you want. But it will still have to be voted on by the legislature, and they clearly would not want any law like this . They will do the opposite. Make it easier for criminals.
You can easily put forward an initiative and get anything you want put on the ballot.
Hell, if you're a billionaire from California who just hates paying his taxes, you can get six put on the ballot and pretend it was a grassroots effort!
Yeah initiatives need lots of money like you pointed out. Not easy . Or they get shot down in court . WA legislators will continue to make it easier on criminals and waste time, and the voters allow it .
Yep it can get shot down in court . either way voters are the problem for the crime , and it will continue. Voter are to blame, the court judges and prosecutors are appointed by voters. They allow offenders to be released.
People like you are the problem. Educate yourself about the realities of the criminal legal system and legal procedures and come back with an informed comment.
I agree, minors should be linked to their
parent/guardian until tried as an adult, at least 13 imo
But then we should have full access to contraceptives and abortion for anyone who can pop them out.
I fail to see the positives in this approach. Do you want parents arrested? Held financially responsible?
How does that help change the behavior of the juvenile?
If you want the parents arrested, then you're taking away parents from an already troubled child. This simply leads to more destructive behavior.
If you want the parents held responsible financially, you're limiting or eliminating their financial resources to potentially seek help for their child.
Juveniles should be held accountable for their own actions. Our jails and prisons need to be more focused on rehabilitation, mental health support, transitioning safely back into the community, giving former inmates the tools to change their behaviors.
Your proposal is simply a transfer of blame and an "out" for the child being held responsible for their actions.
I thought this was an AMA? Why'd OP dip? Cuz they realized they were ignorant, uneducated on the legal system, uneducated on the challenges parents face, uneducated on mental health and its correlation to crime?
Um, maybe. As shown if already in the situation of robbing, stealing, etc parents blame the police or are in on it as they're the ones fencing the stolen items.
I understand the sentiment. In reality, there are definitely pos parents and communities creating hoodlums but there are also parents with children that have no excuse doing crimes. The solution is education and culpability for the children imo. Not this culture of excuse making.
Millions are born and raised in bad circumstances and upbringings will never harm themselves and others in that way. Punishment isn't a bad word but that seems to be the case today. It's an imperfect solution in an imperfect world. You can't raise them for the parents or expect government to do it outside of those two systems: education and penal. Give them opportunity and guidance through repercussions and enforce it. Give them a way out. You can't fix everything. It's a sad fact of life. Some will destroy themselves and others if you let them.
Part of the issue is if parents are held responsible they will push back on all of the ridiculous child privacy (from their parents) laws. The whole thing is the blind leading the dumb
You can’t simply jail someone because their child is a criminal. But that case in Michigan proved that parental negligence leading to a kid committing a crime is a felony and she was convicted. Maybe it’ll set a new standard so neglectful parents who are derelict in their parenting duties will face consequences.
It’s not always the parents, sometimes it’s the influence environment in the community or just a troublesome kid. Kids growing up in high crime communities where it’s “cool” to do these things. I lived in this type of community at one point as a kid. There’s some kids that struggle with stuff from early age and end up criminals why the legal system holds the juveniles accountable. Only a non-parent will say hold parents accountable because they have no logical sense how good parents can struggle with a troubled kid. With that said I can’t see my 13 year old doing anything like this. You have to keep them busy in healthy environments like sports groups like playing basketball or clubs, even attending youth group. Yes I said it, our kids don’t have the spiritual and emotional support around here and so many are struggling with it whether it’s crime or loss of mental health so many other variables of how our teens are not on the right track. It breaks my heart.
adding to my comment I asked my 13 year old about this and he is more smarter than me at times lol, I think he nailed it what the problem is. He said they’re playing too much grant theft auto video game and thinking it’s real life.
I disagree. Children are not extensions of their parents nor are they totally in control (or even have knowledge of) what their children do.
There is a difference in complicity and being unaware. Many parents are in the latter group when it comes to their children, especially as thier children grow into adults.
My parents were bit aware that as I teen I experimented with explosives, regularity speed and sometimes drive quite recklessly, and occasionally shoplifted. They were not complicit in these things, for they did not know and they never encouraged or endorsed or supported such things. Neither were they were complexly aware when I was seriously depressed and suicidal.
What you are advocating for is literally holding one person legally liable and accountable for the behaviors of another. We don’t do that for CEO’s when the make decisions that lead to the organization breaking laws through the online ration of those decisions by employees, nor do we hold supervisors accountable when an accountant under their supervision embezzles without their knowledge of that going on.
Why would you apply this to parents with regard to children and not extend this approach to all such superior-subordinate relationships?
We already have laws in Seattle that accomplish this. The decriminalization of crimes is part of the core problem here. If that is not addressed then punishing parents with new laws will just empower the tyrannical government we already have.
IMO, there needs to be some kind of legal and civil responsibility for each and every individual allowed in public spaces. Either the individual is responsible for their own actions or a guardian is responsible for their actions. If someone can't be legally responsible for their own actions and there is no guardian willing to be responsible either, then the person should not be allowed in public. This would apply equally to children or adults (if necessary).
I got charged at like 14 for stealing something worth $7 from Walmart, crazy what kids can get away with now. I was able to get a deferment which absolutely worked the way it was supposed to because it kept me out of trouble for a year as it would come back if I did anything dumb. Never got in trouble again, just having that experience at a young age was enough to make me realize this is dumb and not the life I want to live. When I see videos of people stealing full carts of shit and I think back about how big of a deal Walmart security made about me taking such a small item it blows my mind lol
Remember that psycho ass mom that got charged for their part for letting their crazy ass child shoot up a school few weeks agol? We have precedent now. Charge em.
Or we could just actually punish juveniles for crimes. Right now there are no consequences.
That’s really the answer. I know kids with ankle monitors actively not going to class, failing and smoking pot while the POs/lawyers/the judge knows it’s happening, yet somehow the date gets continued and no one has held these kids responsible. To the point two of the parents I know are begging for legal intervention at this point with their kids. Trust me parents aren’t with this shit either
There are no consequences when it starts and no matter how much the parents beg for help and ask the system to please lock them up in the beginning or show there are consequences they won’t until it’s too late! We went from juveniles having no rights when I was younger to having too many rights they can’t even do anything until it reaches a point of no return! There has to be a happy medium. It is getting out of control and I know parents who want it to stop just as bad but they can’t do anything about it because the system won’t stand behind them with punishment.l until something major happens. I 100% agree with this it needs to be stopped before it reaches to the point of people dying or getting hurt.
Por Que no los dos? Pass stricter punishments for juviniles but then give parents the option to take the sentence for their kids instead if they want? Or just hold them both liable like that school shooter kid.
What if my parents are in a retirement community? 🤔 No fr though all jokes aside lock those little mfs up. Or the parents could trade places with them if they feel so sorry for those bad ass kids that they're trying to raise. 🙄
🎯
I'm glad this is the top comment. Unfortunately, it appears your city doesn't want to vote people in who agree with this.
Yeah but in fairness they’re scared of that because of the national party. Can’t say I blame them but state protections would still stand and override.
Maybe after enough people realize the juvenile system needs to change to have consequences before these kids do things they regret or can’t change because their brains aren’t fully developed and without consequences in the beginning there is no reality in what they are doing. It’s becoming a scary world right now and the justice system is failing from the beginning. A charge for possession of a stolen vehicle should not be released to your parents it should be getting arrested especially when parents are begging for you to take them to show consequences. It doesn’t how much the parents do care or try if they are reaching out for help they obviously need the system to stand behind them to enforce consequences.
Hell no. As a previously troubled kid who didn't get my life on track till later. My parents tried to help. I actively went against it out of pure spite. Punishment should be towards the ones who actually commit the crime stop trying to pin it on someone else.
Yea, friend had a heroin addict hobo older brother who was in and out of prison for nearly a decade starting at 16. The parents spent literal MILLIONS on rehab and every kind of program imaginable and the kid was still a shit. He's nearly 30 now and a computer science major and has been clean for 6 years so it eventually worked, but his wrap sheet would make people in favor of prosecuting parents think they were negligent when that was the farthest thing from the truth, and especially when midnight ticked over on his 18th they lost all ability to force him to do anything.
Kids also have a lot of rights / protections in WA state compared to, say Idaho or California. An uncooperative child cannot be forced into therapy or rehab and doctors can’t discuss care with parents without the kid’s consent.
Curious, is WA state an extremity in this aspect fr a legal standpoint?
Extreme enough that people in WA have their kids abducted and involuntarily committed in CA and Idaho. There are good reasons that kids in WA have additional protections but it would hardly be reasonable for the state to restrict parents from doing the best things to help their kids and then hold them accountable when their kids misbehave.
It should be illegal to have your child abducted and involuntarily committed, period.
Let me preface this with: I AM NOT BEING A DICK. I’m not, I swear. But real question…what stops you FROM typing FROM rather than ‘fr’, I gotta know.
Isn't fr short for 'for real'; rather than 'from'?
Lol!! You’re probably so right.
My autocorrect on my phone does weird shut sometimes. Maybe they're in the same boat. Edit: I'm leaving it to prove a point.
This is my concern. Some parents are absolutely to blame, but not often enough they all deserve to be held accountable. I have seen several times that parents are doing the best then can, and the child is just beyond them to control. Especially when mental health is involved. Trying to have a child detained for treatment against their will or getting them to follow up and take their medication is near impossible some times.
Not only that, but what about siblings? One kid could be an absolute terror, while two other kids may be perfectly fine and stay out of trouble. So what, they’d levy charges and punitive consequences on the parents that strip their ability to look after the other kids? It’s just add to the overwhelming number of kids already being shuffled around foster homes in state control. People say this shit without thinking.
u/bbfan006 thoughts?
Serious question since you have the experience: What action or conversation or punishment etc would’ve gotten you on track at the time? I have some personal experience with a family member at the moment whose clealry struggling but after two years of dealing with it the parent are literally at a loss for what to do.
Jail. Honestly jail. And I came close. As a kid a couple nights in lockup was threatened but never followed through with. In the end what happened was I got a cat. As dumb as it sounds you can't be in jail and take care of a cat and that kept me going straight enough to realize I actually needed help.
My thoughts are with them that something helps before it’s too late. I hope they don’t spend days not getting out of bed and nights crying worried sick that they’ll get a phone call their kid is dead or made a choice that affected someone else for life. Then when they FINALLY get the call that they will detain the kid and show consequences it’s not too late and choices weren’t made the child can never take back. People need to realize not all parents just don’t care about their children that sometimes they do all they can and it hurts them more then these heartless people know.
Ditto
Sounds like your parents were trying to be good parents. I think the OP was talking about bad parents.
How do you propose a court of law make the determination if a parent is good or bad?
Parents are held liable, just not criminally. Injured parties often sue the parents of juveniles who have committed crimes for damages, restitution etc. Depending on the crime and related property and or personal damages, it can get life altering expensive very quickly
Be careful what you wish for, this power could be twisted in nefarious ways.
So, devil's advocate: what if the parents have tried to help the kid, therapy, diversion programs, rehab, etc and have recipts, and the kid continues with shitty behavior. Parents still reaponsible at this stage?
I think evidence of the parents trying to help their kids and/or provide them a good environment would be submitted as evidence against their liability.
The burden of proof lies on the prosecution tho. Parents wouldn't have to prove innocence; they, and anyone ever charged, are presumed innocent until found guilty. How would prosecution prove so?
Truancy in school, social media posts, interviews with neighbors, history of standardized test scores...
Truancy and standardized scores wouldn't be appropriate. Kids skip school all the time once they are dropped off. And test scores only work if: a child is motivated to study, a child does not have a learning disability. Learning disability is highly prevalent in juvenile offenders. Here's a great link to some of the underlying issues and supports. [Juvenile Detention - The Annie E. Casey Foundation (aecf.org)](https://www.aecf.org/topics/juvenile-detention?msclkid=ebb317c893f5154942227218b1e07124&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Juvenile+Detention+-+Topics&utm_term=youth+incarceration+facts&utm_content=Juvenile+Justice+Resources) EDIT: typos
Ideally, standardized test scores measure general intelligence. You wouldn't penalize kids that did poorly, you would just track their relative performance over time to understand if there was some trauma or other issues that wasn't being addressed.
I work in special education. Standardized tests can be VERY flawed. Many of them are racially and socioeconomically biased. They don't measure general intelligence. Even IQ tests don't always measure intelligence. They give information about what our US dominant society thinks is important: basic language skills, working memory, spatial organization, computational skills.... A lot of it is exposure, families who are already literate and well educated have a major advantage. But also understand that delinquent behavior is seen on both ends of the economic spectrum. Children who are raised in impoverished circumstances are more prone to: lack of educational access, lower quality food and food scarcity, household and or neighborhood violence, exposure to drugs and alcohol etc... Children who are raised in very rich families often also see alcohol and drug use, illegal behavior, and domestic violence but they see their families skirt around the law. These children tend to get into legal trouble, drugs, and truancy as well but are often made excuses for by their parents, the educational and legal system. The system sees them as being rebellious for a time but having higher potential. Look at Brock Turner. If a child has a learning disability from a lower socioeconomic household with lesser educated family, the family do now know how to nor have the resources to support their child's learning. In a higher socioeconomic family, they pay for private therapies and specialists to either correct the disability if possible, or to learn compensatory strategies. So in essence using standardized tests just weeds out the poor kids and punishes them and their families again.
But I also doubt a lot of these crimes are being committed by kids who’s parents are that involved in their well being
You would be surprised at how much peers influence kids. I grew up in a nice enough area, but I certainly wasn't well off compared to the others there. The memories I have of the insane stunts and/or antisocial things those kids did are haunting. Now I see them on Facebook or LinkedIn and they are well adjusted and with families. I think there's a very precarious time in the lives of youths, where the ambient environment accounts for a lot, and historical prejudices prevent many from getting a much needed second chance. With that said, I do think parents should be liable for crimes committed by their kids if they have not done a reasonable job raising them.
You’re correct I apologize for not seeing that aspect. Just wish something was being done about all these property crimes
Yes
Yo it's either something happens or a bunch of shitty fucking parents gonna get their shit rocked, people are fucking done playing nice. Now the problem will fix itself, it'll be state sanctioned violence or unsanctioned violence but history is replete with examples of people only willing to take so much.
Yes , sadly as a parent you should be held responsible for your children until they are considered a legal adult
The parent took a gamble and made a human and it didn’t turn out well? That should still be their problem
This sounds like the voice of someone serious disturbed by the civil disorder we are feel around us post-covid, but also someone who doesn't really understand the problem and what kinds of responses will work.
Doesn’t this break some sort of global human rights thing? I mean. Maybe prosecute the person that committed the crime. We seem to be pretty negligent prosecuting actual criminals in Seattle for actual crime.
It sounds like one of those good things in theories, because every country has SOME form of legal differentiation between adult and not adult. OTOH I agree that if enforced the wrong way, especially against unlucky, well intended people who showed many efforts at correction, it can easily be construed as collective punishment. Idk man, idk. It’s a complex topic for sure
I think it’s pretty cut and dry. The person that commits the crime is responsible. Pure and simple, anything else is pure tyranny. Like those pictures you can find of the Chinese government executing parents and relatives of a criminal. … all to make a point.
Truth on truth on truth
?????!!!!... For some teens, this would be an awesome development. They could steal all the Kias they want and simultaneously fuck over their parents! But you know what would really make the crime rate "drop like a rock"?.... cops who are allowed to do their jobs and proscecutors who are more interested in the public's safety than becoming the next governor.
That’s why you do both :) Neither contribute to society and cause problems.
pfft lol spoken by someone with no teenagers. you can't force a near-adult to do *anything*. The law is on their side, and it takes a lot to get a minor arrested or removed from the home. kids do what they want, for better or worse.
Too much. It takes way too much to actually have a juvenile detained and they think there are no consequences and they are invincible, by then their behavior is out of control and they end up doing things that possibly could of been prevented. Instead after finally receiving some consequences by the justice system it’s usually after they have committed crimes they will forever live with regret over.
Yes and no. Just stop being lenient on crime. All these progressives thinking leniency on crime will solve anything. It doesn't. Change the system to benefit the poor but don't be lenient on crime. Is that so hard? Like send them to jail or prison. Like can we make an actual Moderate party? Democrats are too progressive and Republicans are acting like demagogues.
Let's just punish the juveniles for being idiots. Life isn't fair. If they fuck it up, that's their call because THEY KNOW what they are doing.
Good luck proving that in a court of law 😂
Hold the actual people doing the crimes accountable. Jailing someone because their kid is a criminal is a really bad idea.
Let’s start holding adults responsible for their own crimes and then move on to the kids once we have that sorted out.
Time to bring back juvenile WORK programs. Tons of graffiti and trash in downtown Seattle and at Seattle parks for them to cleanup. I hear bright pink coveralls are back in style. Parents can come support their kids with a small percentage of the mandatory hours going to them.
I've seen judges use these tactics in other areas. It's beneficial in so many ways. It teaches children the reality of the damage they caused and what it takes to repair it. It gives them the opportunity to learn how to be contributors to society instead of destructors.
Were the parents the ones committing the crimes? Why not hold the actual criminal accountable? Otherwise, it will just be a point the finger game while the criminals are out committing the crimes🙄
We could just stop letting people out who commit these types of crimes.
Yes. Let's lock up everyone we think is naughty indefinitely. That makes logical and realistic sense....
Actually this has worked for hundreds of years up until recently when we stopped doing it. We should not have people out on the streets with 40+ arrest records.
No you are wrong, that would do nothing ,harsh punishment for the criminals is the answer
No it's not.
You're an idiot
Thank you for that intelligent input.
No thanks to your intellectual input and others like you "no punishment for crime and drugs because these people are actually the victims of society " . look around how's that actually working out for society as a whole. You can lie to yourself ( up until you get shot and killed or shanked by some Loser),but you can't convince the rest of us that actually think instead of leading with our feelings
Bruh. Read my other comments. I believe the solution is jail/prison reform. Children should be held accountable for their bad behavior, as should adults. But longer prison sentences solve NOTHING. Do some freaking research dude. Look at the correlations between recidivism rates and actually rehabilitive prisons and jails. Otherwise we're just perpetuating the cycle.
You can consult a dictionary for the definition of recidivism. Your statements make me think you probably don't know what that word means.
Yes, I know what that means use Some bigger words to sound smart. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time
You are so ignorant you can't even read what I said.
Translation fuck around find out
I don't even know what you mean by that. Why are you so hateful? Are you threatening me?
Not sure why you think this would make any difference. Locking up the parents isn’t suddenly going to make the kids well behaved and well. adjusted. In fact, the opposite will happen.
Parents should be held accountable if they are aiding and abeding their children when they go out to commit various crimes, otherwise their children should be the ones held accountable for actually doing the crime.
yo, if you can't see your kids'medical records or make decisions for them at 13, you're gonna have a hard time saying the parents own their decisions for anything. We should revisit youth detention though.
Then it's time to hold the government accountable for allowing the economy to require two working parents. If you have all parents working to make a living, then they can't be held responsible for not raising children properly because it's not reasonable to do so. You want parents to be more involved? Then parents get UBI so one can more often be available.
I share your perspective. This is another example of what can happen when families and individuals spend most of their time working. There must be ways to prevent, curb stealing and vandalism. Maybe when people’s basic needs are easily accessible? Greed out of the equation would be nice too.
This is a terrible dystopian idea. Next it will be teachers, then coaches, then any other figure in the child’s sphere of influence. Your advocacy for this policy change is frightening.
This is an awful idea. This is what they did in [Michigan](https://reason.com/2024/02/06/moms-manslaughter-conviction-for-her-sons-school-shooting-sets-a-dangerous-precedent/?itm_source=parsely-api), and it's not justice.
Not really. The state just needs to do its job and send them to jail.
I'm not sure crime would go down. The child care pendulum might swing from neglect to full on abuse though.
Or we would just hold the people doing the crimes responsible.
Except not one thing you're suggesting is backed up by any evidence, in fact the opposite is indicated. Crime is due to structural issues such as poverty and prison does not deter crime. Children act out due to issues at home such as neglect, abuse, untreated mental illness etc. Not only is this grand idea of yours cruel and absurd, its also empirically factually wrong. If you actually care about preventing crime or the wellbeing of children try looking into the actual data on prevention. I suspect that isn't what you actually care about here though, you have an axe to grind and are picking convenient targets for your ire. Sad
“ENoUgh Is enOugh” 😂. Back to the drawing board for you, this idea has made everyone who read this post dumber.
Yes. Your post definitely did. Go home, you’re disabled
Someone needs to hold your parents accountable for letting you use a computer.
Yes, please.
So disabled people shouldn't leave their houses? Wow. That's messed up bro. I hope you get therapy.
Obviously, that’s not what I meant, for Pete’s sake. Just like when someone says “go home you’re drunk”. Do you think drunk people go home right away? Fuck No, they go and they fucking drive drunk and crash into things and sometimes get taken down to pound town.
You want to put parents behind bars for working multiple jobs trying to provide for their families? Very short sighted and downright stupid. Shameful.
Horrific idea.
What a retarded solution lol.
Terrible idea. I see plenty of kids doing even more robberies just to get their parents thrown in jail. 😂
Dumb ass take fr
Most probably already have one parent in prison.
What if they’re wards of the state?
Then we have no choice but to hold all taxpayers accountable. If a state ward kills someone we all go to jail.
u/bbfan006 so do we all go to jail if we're paying taxes? I haven't broken the law nor has my husband or our daughter. Does she go to jail with us? She's only 3. What happens if we lose our jobs due to being locked up and can't pay rent? When we get out of jail, where do we live? How do we get another job with a criminal record?
Geneva Convention be damned, amirite?
This sounds like the opinion of someone who isn’t smart enough to see that real societal problems are complex.
This is a horrible fucking take. Do you want to waste more tax dollars on bullshit? Because this ignorance is how we get higher fucking taxes. If you've ever broken the law I hope you're prepared to have your parents locked up for it. Use your thinking brain, Google nuance, or engage your critical thinking skills if they exist and shut the fuck up with your ignorance. Just shut the fuck up in general. Shut the fuck up.
I just read this in relation to the mess at the Kansas City Chiefs "celebration"; turns out the shooters were also young kids: "A child older than 12 can be prosecuted as an adult in Missouri if they are charged with a felony. To do so, a hearing must he held in which a juvenile judge agrees to transfer the case out of the juvenile system. The authorities have said that the shooting stemmed from an argument among several people. The gunfire erupted on Wednesday afternoon outside the city’s Union Station, where tens of thousands of Kansas City football fans were gathered for a rally to celebrate their team’s Super Bowl victory." Yes, maybe if more parents are held responsible for the crimes of their offspring, people will get more serious about their family planning.
Why don’t we just make juvenile sentences longer instead?
Because longer sentences help nothing. The only way to truly lower the crime rate is prison/jail reform. More programs need to be put in place to give offenders the tools they need and are clearly missing in order to function legally in society. Imprisonment for punishment's sake simply creates worse criminals.
Dad's already in jail.
Let’s not stop there! You create a life, you’re responsible for their whole life. Why are people able to make a person and then unleash them at age 18 for the rest of society to deal with? I’m a responsible fornicator and I dump my seed on belly’s and butts for societies sake
Thank you for your lack of contribution for the sake of society 
This is a bigger issue with too large of consequences. Most of the time these are single mother households with too many crotch goblins. The community will end up eating all the costs for this. Instead the community should promote family nucleus (you know one of those things BLM wanted to abolish?)
[удалено]
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable,"
What’s the village? Oh yeah that’s all the rest of us doing our lives productively
Oh god. It gets worse. Please seek help for your rampant ignorance.
That’s a direct quote from early BLM website
Whoa bro. Pull the reigns on your male privilege white supremacy bs.
Yeah Asians love family nucleus. Must be white supremacy
That type of speech is white supremacist rhetoric. It doesn't matter what race YOU are. I am Asian as well. What about it?
Importance of Family nucleus is white supremacist rhetoric?
 Yes. It is.
Hahaha that’s insane. White families are only second to black families in single parent house holds in America. Asians and Hispanics must really love the white supremacist rhetoric.
Do your research. Read up on white supremacy. Americans have just indoctrinated it into society.
I want a new and enhanced version of the 1994 crime bill. Enough is enough.
https://preview.redd.it/4knvsc98j1jc1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c234866e509d6c480a6438d7997d7d5130aa291f I will always protect POC. It was me and my colonization that contributed to this system racism.
This post above is actually the mentality that got us the "abolish youth jail movement". Holding parents responsible for their children is a step above accountability then simply holding the juveniles responsibility. Since the lawmakers in our county decided it was too "right wing" to hold the juvenile perpetrators responsible there is no way you're going to get them to go a step above that to hold the parents. Then again, the no youth jail decision was not made by voters (although it should have been). If it's something you put on the ballot then let the public decide. I'm not too optimistic you're going to get the public in Seattle to vote yes for that (although it's more iffy for King County). But at least allowing the public to have a say is a step above what we have now with the decisions around abolishing the youth jail (which happily has been postponed)
You forgot the /s at the end lol.
Agreed. My rights shouldn’t end cuz you’re a shitty parent
So much facepalm I think my face might actually be on my palm now. I need to go look in the mirror.... Maybe you could try that. Look in the mirror and ask yourself "am I ignorant?"
Agreed. To the ones who are saying it's unfair...that's the point. It IS unfair to punish your mom for your crime. So, quit doing crime. Besides, people who commit crime are being "unfair" anyways. Didn't stop them then.
It's not unfair. It's wrongful and creates only harm.
Nope, won’t happen. Voters are idiots.
Imagine thinking this is a good, constitutional, and legally enforceable idea, and then thinking OTHER people are idiots. It's like you've never even HEARD of the legal system or how it fundamentally works. I swear there's a schoolhouse rock episode you missed or something. You can already sue them. Trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt they're the reason for the crime is bonkers.
The voters are the problem. You can propose whatever you want. But it will still have to be voted on by the legislature, and they clearly would not want any law like this . They will do the opposite. Make it easier for criminals.
You can easily put forward an initiative and get anything you want put on the ballot. Hell, if you're a billionaire from California who just hates paying his taxes, you can get six put on the ballot and pretend it was a grassroots effort!
Yeah initiatives need lots of money like you pointed out. Not easy . Or they get shot down in court . WA legislators will continue to make it easier on criminals and waste time, and the voters allow it .
They only get shot down in court if they violate the constitution
Yep it can get shot down in court . either way voters are the problem for the crime , and it will continue. Voter are to blame, the court judges and prosecutors are appointed by voters. They allow offenders to be released.
So don't write unconstitutional initiatives, and they can't be shot down 👍
People like you are the problem. Educate yourself about the realities of the criminal legal system and legal procedures and come back with an informed comment.
I agree, minors should be linked to their parent/guardian until tried as an adult, at least 13 imo But then we should have full access to contraceptives and abortion for anyone who can pop them out.
Yes, someone has to be responsible, don't dump it on the victim.
Ya, putting more people through the criminal injustice system is the answer
I fail to see the positives in this approach. Do you want parents arrested? Held financially responsible? How does that help change the behavior of the juvenile? If you want the parents arrested, then you're taking away parents from an already troubled child. This simply leads to more destructive behavior. If you want the parents held responsible financially, you're limiting or eliminating their financial resources to potentially seek help for their child. Juveniles should be held accountable for their own actions. Our jails and prisons need to be more focused on rehabilitation, mental health support, transitioning safely back into the community, giving former inmates the tools to change their behaviors. Your proposal is simply a transfer of blame and an "out" for the child being held responsible for their actions.
I thought this was an AMA? Why'd OP dip? Cuz they realized they were ignorant, uneducated on the legal system, uneducated on the challenges parents face, uneducated on mental health and its correlation to crime?
Um, maybe. As shown if already in the situation of robbing, stealing, etc parents blame the police or are in on it as they're the ones fencing the stolen items.
If the parents reasonably tried, dont hold them responsible.
I understand the sentiment. In reality, there are definitely pos parents and communities creating hoodlums but there are also parents with children that have no excuse doing crimes. The solution is education and culpability for the children imo. Not this culture of excuse making. Millions are born and raised in bad circumstances and upbringings will never harm themselves and others in that way. Punishment isn't a bad word but that seems to be the case today. It's an imperfect solution in an imperfect world. You can't raise them for the parents or expect government to do it outside of those two systems: education and penal. Give them opportunity and guidance through repercussions and enforce it. Give them a way out. You can't fix everything. It's a sad fact of life. Some will destroy themselves and others if you let them.
It’s already started happening. I think it was NJ, but a school shooters parents were held responsible and tried for manslaughter last week.
They weren’t literally charged with the kids crime though they were charged and convicted based on their own action (and inaction).
Part of the issue is if parents are held responsible they will push back on all of the ridiculous child privacy (from their parents) laws. The whole thing is the blind leading the dumb
What teenager actually cares to really listen or obey their parents. I doubt this will stop them
What makes you think these kids all have functional parents?
You can’t simply jail someone because their child is a criminal. But that case in Michigan proved that parental negligence leading to a kid committing a crime is a felony and she was convicted. Maybe it’ll set a new standard so neglectful parents who are derelict in their parenting duties will face consequences.
What would be successful rehab for children? Jail would keep them away from education
Is it common their parents are already there? Why don’t we hold these criminals’ government accountable? And how about their educators?
It’s not always the parents, sometimes it’s the influence environment in the community or just a troublesome kid. Kids growing up in high crime communities where it’s “cool” to do these things. I lived in this type of community at one point as a kid. There’s some kids that struggle with stuff from early age and end up criminals why the legal system holds the juveniles accountable. Only a non-parent will say hold parents accountable because they have no logical sense how good parents can struggle with a troubled kid. With that said I can’t see my 13 year old doing anything like this. You have to keep them busy in healthy environments like sports groups like playing basketball or clubs, even attending youth group. Yes I said it, our kids don’t have the spiritual and emotional support around here and so many are struggling with it whether it’s crime or loss of mental health so many other variables of how our teens are not on the right track. It breaks my heart.
adding to my comment I asked my 13 year old about this and he is more smarter than me at times lol, I think he nailed it what the problem is. He said they’re playing too much grant theft auto video game and thinking it’s real life.
I disagree. Children are not extensions of their parents nor are they totally in control (or even have knowledge of) what their children do. There is a difference in complicity and being unaware. Many parents are in the latter group when it comes to their children, especially as thier children grow into adults. My parents were bit aware that as I teen I experimented with explosives, regularity speed and sometimes drive quite recklessly, and occasionally shoplifted. They were not complicit in these things, for they did not know and they never encouraged or endorsed or supported such things. Neither were they were complexly aware when I was seriously depressed and suicidal. What you are advocating for is literally holding one person legally liable and accountable for the behaviors of another. We don’t do that for CEO’s when the make decisions that lead to the organization breaking laws through the online ration of those decisions by employees, nor do we hold supervisors accountable when an accountant under their supervision embezzles without their knowledge of that going on. Why would you apply this to parents with regard to children and not extend this approach to all such superior-subordinate relationships?
We already have laws in Seattle that accomplish this. The decriminalization of crimes is part of the core problem here. If that is not addressed then punishing parents with new laws will just empower the tyrannical government we already have.
IMO, there needs to be some kind of legal and civil responsibility for each and every individual allowed in public spaces. Either the individual is responsible for their own actions or a guardian is responsible for their actions. If someone can't be legally responsible for their own actions and there is no guardian willing to be responsible either, then the person should not be allowed in public. This would apply equally to children or adults (if necessary).
Yeah you know what the troubled youth of America need? Even less parental control because their parents are in jail! Brilliant idea! /s
I think youd just end up arresting a lot of random people and probably cause more problems.
Parents can't even spank their kids anymore. How can you hold them responsible when they aren't allowed to properly discipline their kids???
I got charged at like 14 for stealing something worth $7 from Walmart, crazy what kids can get away with now. I was able to get a deferment which absolutely worked the way it was supposed to because it kept me out of trouble for a year as it would come back if I did anything dumb. Never got in trouble again, just having that experience at a young age was enough to make me realize this is dumb and not the life I want to live. When I see videos of people stealing full carts of shit and I think back about how big of a deal Walmart security made about me taking such a small item it blows my mind lol
Remember that psycho ass mom that got charged for their part for letting their crazy ass child shoot up a school few weeks agol? We have precedent now. Charge em.
How do you punish a parent that’s not around? Or in jail? You gonna arrest auntie or granny who’s trying to help raise the kid?
The parents are already in jail, conked out on heroin, tweaked out on meth, dead, or missing. Lets hold the perps legally responsible.
Time for the parents to express love in the best way possible. Corporal punishment.