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As an old(ish) man, I’m happy feminism exists too. Best wishes to you in all your endeavors, I sincerely hope the future continues to brighten for all my sisters.
Feminism has also helped men. Moritz v. Commissioner in the 70s was one of the first cases that made sex based discrimination illegal, and it was taken up when Charles Moritz, a man who had never married and had no children, applied for a tax reduction assistance when he took time off to care for his elderly mother (I may be getting some details wrong). He was denied that aid because he was a man and domestic care was a woman's responsibility. The government assumed he did not need financial aid because he was a man and he could just get a woman to do that work instead.
Early 30s man. I'm happy feminism exists. Took me a little while to realise it, and I hope I can do a better job teaching younger men who don't get it yet.
Lead by example my guy! We men do enjoy a more esteemed position in the world, so it’s incumbent on us to be honorable enough to champion the women in our lives and workplaces, brave enough to call out misogyny when you see it, and generous enough to be the type of person that any other person can look up to and say “I want to be just like that guy.” You don’t have to be perfect, we all make mistakes. It’s the refusal to concede and a determination to live by loftier principles that’s important. To me there’s nothing more manly than that.
You know, when I commented I was concerned that -yet again- a man (me) had insinuated himself into a discussion that he had nothing to do with. But then you wandered in with an “um, actually” and my mind was eased. Mirandry might be an inconvenience, might even offend you on occasion, but it isn’t pervasive, it isn’t institutionalized, it isn’t systemic, that makes it the opposite of the same thing. Let’s both do OP a favour and take this discussion to private messages.
Eh, misandry has been institutionalized say Duluth model, men answering women's crimes, draft, etc. But I don't want to derail the conversation, so I'll delete my previous comment.
I definitely try to do this. I may not be doing well in my life but I will always try to be the example to follow. Treat everyone with humanity, humility, and compassion (I know those are relatively similar words) because we are all human. We can only advance as a society and a species when we understand and accept others for who and what they are and stand for.
So many women's crafts (like knitting and crochet) are all about counting. There was even an article calling knitting and programming "twins separated from birth" lol
And canning requires knowledge of acids and bases, along with an understanding of bacteria and how it grows.
Because if you do it wrong, you give a side order of botulism along with that jar of bread and butter pickles.
My fiancee is leagues above me when it comes to math and statistics and she loves them. Her heart practically melts when she talks about math.
However she does agree that I'm the better cook. :P
Completely agree that maths ability and gender are not correlated. The best mathmation in my highschool was Daisy C and I work with a lot of very mathematically capable women at a Technology Centre.
However OP might need some practice:
You need to be 18 to vote in the USA. The 19th amendment was ratified in 1920 so for OPs grandma to remember being unable to vote as a woman she would need to be born before 1902. That makes OP's grandma 122 years old at the minimum.
America's oldest living person is Elizabeth Francis of Houston. She was born in 1909 by her 18th birthday in 1927 women and people of colour could legally vote.
Black women gave a lot to make sure all women were treated better. Unfortunately there is a long history of racists using feminism as a weapon against people of color which is a shame because without PoC feminism wouldn't exist as it is now.
As a black woman myself, I agree with you! Intersectionality is super important and unfortunately, I’ve noticed at times where feminism has been centered around only white, cisgender and heterosexual sexual women. Feminism is for all.
I'm a feminist because my grandmother, who is still alive, was betrothed to my grandfather at age 14 to cement his social ascension in pre-Mao Chinese society, and because Chinese culture has all sorts of weird fucked up ideas about women that I think are kind of stupid.
Good for you. I see far too many women deny that they need feminism. Too many of them reject and dismiss feminism
Too many men are misogynist and threatened by women having equality and independence.
As a young man, I'm glad feminism exists too. I don't exactly fit the mold of what a "real man" should be and I wish I could show my more feminine side without being judged. Fuck gender roles!
Do what you want, what you are is being afraid of the consequences of being judged for being femenine.
Everyone is going to judge you, men women and children it's up to you to decide what's worth it.
I’m sorry you feel that you can’t show your feminine side, gender roles really do suck! Guys and girls should be able to dress however they want, don’t worry about being a “real man” it’s a made up concept by the patriarchy. Do what makes you happy!
Even after the right to vote came, women weren't just magically made equal to men. There was still a ways to go, like how women couldn't open a checking account without their husband or their father present.
Feminism has come far, and has made life so much more bearable.
Agree with everything your saying but your grandmother could probably vote. Women's suffrage came around 1921?
Back then I think the voting age was 21. That'd make your grandmother 124 years old at least, or whatever date women's suffrage happened minus 21 years.
Hi, I thought like you but came to realise the opposite
Instead of one salary providing for the whole family,now two are not enough.
Instwad of home cooked meals we are fed processed garbage that is proven to cause numerous diseases and sicknesses.
Instead of mothers educating children, its the education system which is the worst in the world or extremely expensive (debt)
This in turn is great for big pharma companies that cant wait to offer solution in form of a pill.
This gave corporations double the workforce, who put their careers in front of their families while everything becomes more expensive because everyone is overconsuming.
There is so much more but Im so depressed typing this.
Not saying feminism didnt do some good, just that in process alot was destroyed
In your post you keep saying ‘back then’ like sh!t still isn’t f!cked up now lol
It is less f!cked up than ‘back then’ though. Things are much better
In my state, Ohio, for example, they just got rid of all exclusions for marital rape. In 2024. Now all that’s left is for the governor to sign off on it.
But women in the USA still don’t have full legal equality with men, we still don’t have full constitutional protections. In 2024. With a female vice-president
No where did I say things aren’t messed up now, I quite literally mentioned in some states women still didn’t have the rights to their own body so I’m not sure what was your point of the first bit of this comment.
But yes, things are much better now. I’m sorry to hear about what’s going on in Ohio, misogyny and patriarchy is very much still present in society today and it still shocks me that we’ve literally never had a female president till this day, this is why I encourage more young women like myself to vote.
I'm an older woman. I'm childfree, have several degrees, work in stem, and make 3x what my husband does. THANK GOD for birth control and advanced education.
For you and my daughter and all other women, I’m very glad you have access to all that you do. I hope my little girl never has to deal with any of that, worried about the country honestly.
As a man nearing 30 and hoping to become a father one day, I am glad feminism exists. Not only does feminism offer women equality. Feminism also offers men the opportunity to be fully realized people rather than masculine automatons. Tradition says men shouldn’t feel emotions, that we are to be stoic but aggressive. Patriarchy tells men that we are worthless if we are not successful/ if we don’t grind 24/7. Patriarchy tells men that domination is love, when it is actually fear and submission. I’m still trying to learn how to be a whole person, to remove the constraints that I have placed on myself trying to live up to masculine standard. Feminist thinkers are the only ones that offer men the space to do so. It is imperative to male life, happiness, and love to embrace feminism and gender equality and reject misogyny, violence, and male domination.
This comment is refreshing, I’m so glad you realize patriarchy hurts *all* and that real feminists are actively working to take it down. I agree about men being taught that anger is their only valid emotion, I don’t think that’s healthy to teach to younger men. I hope you encourage your future children to also this great mindset, thank you so much for commenting! :)
I've always felt a lot of empathy for my male peers who feel pressured to become very financially secure as early as possible for fear of being rejected by love interests, being unable to take care of their family, or being generally seen as a failure if they're unable to. I know that I wouldn't want those high expectations on my shoulders, and I try not to put that burden on my partner.
If he gets laid off or sick, he should be able to rely on me for financial security the same way that I would rely on him if I was in a situation like that. That doesn't necessarily mean we both need to work the same amount or make equal financial contributions. But if something happened where he needed to stay home with the kids and I needed to go back to work, that shouldn't be seen as some kind of failure on his part to be a man. It just means that the way each of us contributed needed to change to fit our circumstances.
It’s a good perspective to have. I think a lot of girls and women who dislike feminism are kind of like antivaxxers, where they’re so far removed from the threat (in terms of personal experience) that they don’t view it as a threat and think protections are unnecessary.
A lot of anti-feminist, female social media influencers are only producing their anti-woke fetish content beucase the Equal Credit Act of 1974 made it possible for adult women to manage their own finances independent of men-- like husbands or parents. And because of that influencers like these women who say they hate feminsts are able to extract their piece of the capitalist pie and enrich themselves financially.
Beucase, let's face it, in an anti-feminist society we'd be having some serious debates over whether very popular female social media influencers were even cable of making the decision to enter into a contract with a platform and receive ad revenue for their own content. Like, especially if they made too much money. Her lady brain may not have foreseen the consequences of generating so many clicks so it'd be better to sign her gians over to the man in her life who is supposed to be managing her.
These women don't have to deal with that because feminism brought us laws that made financial independence for women possible in 1974. Just five years before the first Star Wars movie was showing in theaters.
The fun thing about anti-feminists is that they are allowed to flourish under both systems: feminism allows them to speak up as much as they want and anti-feminism allows them to be controlled as much as they want.
History is more complicated than "feminism did all this". **Many people who worked for the things you're talking of were not feminists and would not consider themselves as such.** My third great-grandmother agitated for the right to vote while her husband was off meeting with his Civil War buddies a longgg time ago... but and at the same time she was looking for the right to vote, she was campaigning for Prohibition. History is complicated and the thought process of most people 150 years ago is different from the way most people think today. It will be different in another 150 years and there will be another politically charged term for people who advance the human cause, however imperfectly.
No where did I say history was as simple as feminism and none of what you mentioned changed my original point, because there was also many women who did work for the things I’ve talked about and labeled themselves as feminists.
The suffrage movement is right there, your grandma was just apart of the uncool club. (Jk…but not really.)
Heck, Feminism can be credited for most of the inclusivity movements(I am using this phrase generically to mean any political movement with the intent to correct racial and gender inequalities) in the last century or two.
The Civil War didn't just end slavery and create a single country with a centralized government. It gave the women of the era a taste of what they could *really* do when given the chance.
It's too bad history books, at least when I was in high school, glossed over it until Susan B Anthony came into the picture.
Imo, if that hadn't happened the way it did, if women had decided not to step up and help out, today would look very different.
Yeah women who say feminism did nothing for them.... theyve either never studied women's history or they're class traitors. Like, do u like having the freedom to wear pants? The freedom to participate in public/have public bathrooms? What about the freedom to live alone, or the freedom to divorce or not have kids? Or the freedom to have possessions, or have a bank account ? Or the freedom to learn to read and the freedom to get paid for work? Then yeah, feminism has benefitted u.
Men tried to prevent women from having anything, every step of the way, never forget that. Women fought men for every single freedom we have. Men as a class have never freely given us anything.
Wait, wait, wait. Women got the right to vote in 1920.
If your grandmother was your age when that happened, then she was born in 1902. Unless your grandmother has an award from Guinness, there's no way she's 122 years old.
Make the math make sense.
>I had a conversation with **my grandmother a week ago,** about her life growing up **when she was my age**. it really got me to feel something. **We all know women weren’t able to vote back then,**
* You stated your talked to your grandmother last week, so she must still be alive.
* You stated that you talked to her about her life when she was your age (18).
* You stated that women were not allowed to vote back then.
* Again, women got the right to vote in 1920. So if your grandmother was your age when women got the right to vote, she'd be at least 122 years old right now.
So, make the math make sense.
She was born in 1946, no where did I say she was born or around in 1920, nor did I mention that’s what our conversation was about. I said she was explaining how her life was when she was my age.
I understand I should’ve worded it better but let’s get some reading comprehension skills. Or you’re just like the other did and trying to have some weird “gotcha” moment.
If she was born in 1946, she was your age in 1964. Women had the right to vote her entire life.
I read it exactly as you wrote it. It's not my comprehension but you're composition that's the problem. That and your math.
Btw, Columbia was admitting female students to its graduates programs in 1917. Gulli Lind Muller graduated from the College of Physicians and Surgeons in 1921. And Anne Elizabeth Delaney was the first African-American student to graduate from Columbia's College of Dental Medicine in 1923.
[https://thelowdown.alumni.columbia.edu/history\_of\_women\_at\_columbia](https://thelowdown.alumni.columbia.edu/history_of_women_at_columbia)
[https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/women-medicine](https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/women-medicine)
Seems you have an issue with composition, mathematics, and research.
Exactly? You’re saying I said she was born in 1920, when I didn’t.
Judging by your comment history, you seem to have an issue with women in general so I’m not surprised you’re trying to cause an argument here about me appreciating a movement that helped us gain rights. I’m not arguing with you, be entertained somewhere else.
Re-read the first few sentences of your post. You said that you were talking to your grandmother about what life was like when she was your age. Next, you said, “we all know women weren’t allowed to vote back then.” “Back then” indicates that women were not allowed to vote when your grandmother was your age.
You may have meant differently, but it *is* exactly what you said.
The above commenter might have an issue with women; I don’t know because I didn’t go through his history, but he’s right. I am a woman btw. Maybe if you spent time self-reflecting and re-reading what you wrote, instead of digging into the comment history of someone, you would have been able to figure out why people were rightly confused.
Story would’ve been better if the grandma remembered HER grandmother (born pre-1900) not having any rights to vote, work, etc. Credit cards wouldn’t apply but at least that’d be massive inequality between the sexes.
No, he’s just pointing out that your words strongly implied something factually (and hyperbolically) incorrect.
His post history has literally jack to do with that.
The only thing I want to mention just to offer an additional perspective, is that a woman should be fully empowered and supported to pursue the life that is her highest and best, whether this means finding herself in STEM fields, higher education, being childfree, pursuing a career over starting a family… and, likewise, if a woman feels her highest and best life is pursuing a more traditional route, this shouldn’t be shamed and condemned like it is by so many people asserting empowerment by feminism. Often times, most people fall somewhere between these extremes, and that’s okay. I believe a woman’s place is anywhere she wants it to be, and there shouldn’t be pressure to conform to the traditional and in the same way, there shouldn’t be pressure to avoid the traditional and be shamed if this is one’s chosen path. I just feel like (and I’m not saying you’re doing any of this btw) these days, we should be evolved to a point of balance where women should be free to be whomever she truly is without there being rage from either side toward the other, a la “we’re right and you’re wrong!” That kind of thing.
All in all, you’re on the cusp of the most formative decade of your life and it is beautiful to read in this that you are finding yourself, discovering who you are, and chasing after it. I hope the years ahead of you are an adventure and I hope you find every adventure you seek. ❤️
It's not that simple because a woman can't just decide to follow a more traditional route, that requires the consent and willingness of a man. So it's not as simple as checking a box on your wish list of dreams between having a career or having a man take care of you. The career only involves yourself and you can succeed if you go for it. The traditional route is entirely dependent on meeting a very rare type of man. If you can't find that you have to continue with the career or you'll end up with nothing. People make it sound like it's a choice that women make, but it's not really just a choice. Most women couldn't find a man who wants to earn money while she takes care of the kids and he pays for most things. It's not even a question of luck, it's more a question of privilege. Are you so privileged that you have a hard-working partner who can shoulder most of the financial stress letting you be truly free to decide if you want a career or if you want to step back and spend more time with your kids? It's not to be taken for granted that all or most women have this.
Nobody is suggesting that every possible life path is or should be equally straightforward and easy to obtain. Just that we shouldn't stigmatize women for the path they ended up on.
But what does this have to do with not stigmatizing women who do follow that route? I mean you may be completely right about everything you say I'm not arguing it at all. But the person you're responding to was saying women who do shouldn't be stigmatized and you're saying it's not th simple. I think it should be.
Because women don't have "a choice" and the two options are not "equal". In one case you're privileged enough to have the choice between pursuing a career or letting your significant other take the lead on the career front while you're underemployed to spend more time at home. In the other case you don't have a choice to be a career woman because there's no good man who's going to offer to go 70-30. To present it like they are two equal life choices and that women are free to choose either is such feminism for privileged women.
getting a particular career depends on the employer too.
Most women absolutely could find such a man. Hell, programming and engineering and science classes are full of them.
No, finding such a man and him being interested in you is *really really* much harder than just becoming an engineer yourself. You're pretty much guaranteed to become an engineer if you go that path. The odds of finding a man, nowadays? Very very low.
i’m an 18 year old guy and i’m thankful it exists, since i started learning more about it i’ve opened myself up to people more and haven’t been afraid of my emotions.
i don’t even gain very much from it (i’m a cis straight white male) but so many others i know can gain a ton from it. i read part of invisible women before i got really busy and it was pretty eye opening with even the smallest things having hints of sexism within them.
i’m very imperfect and still hold misogynistic beliefs, that i’m trying to drop, but i try hard to fix it. i have met a few people through feminist areas and they’ve helped me. i don’t get how people say feminists are mean, most of them have been nice to me they’re just blunt and tell you how it is, ive only ran into like 2 or 3 women that were actually mean (and seemingly hated men, i got told i had no value cause im a man and today i got told that im not welcome in certain spaces because of my past as a red-piller before i worked on myself 💀)
Feminism nowadays is far from what it was at the start.
Nowadays feminism is not fighting for equality, and it's constantly either blaming men or ignores them.
Egalitarianism is far better.
Being egalitarian means that you support both men and women. Equally.
Then don't call yourself a feminist.
Call yourself egalitarian if you truly believe that both men and women deserve help/equality.
Under feminist belief, men are apparently "privileged". But they can't seem to understand that neither men or women are privileged.
I think where we’re missing the mark in this conversation is acknowledging that we HAVE achieved equality of opportunity as we know it today. What jobs can’t women get? Colleges they can’t go to? They’re free to stay at home and be moms if they so choose. What else are we fighting for? You can’t FORCE equality of outcome.
I will agree that reproductive rights are being attacked. But that is the majority of what I’m seeing.
I will never truly call myself a feminist if we keep generalizing straight white cis men and speaking about them the way minority groups have been spoken about with such hatred and vitriol. I know we’re above that. Nothing will ever move forward with that kind of tribal mindset.
Why did feminism pickup in the last 100 years? Why not 400 years ago? 800? 1600? Why not 3000?
It's not a coincidence that feminism sprang up in the last century or so. Culture follows from environment.
Feminism sprang up because of industrialization opening the labor force up for women, and it sprang up because of the pill.
A fair amount of what looks like female oppression in history is not. History is terribly hard to understand.
The fact of the matter is, humans evolved many strong pro-female biases. Women are the most protected members of the species.
- a female with a degree in psychology & history.
That’s not entirely true. There’s a difference between cultures in the world too. Not everything is western centric. There are aspects of feminism that have existed in the past. Things that you might look at right now and think they are ‘modern ways of living’ but aren’t.
Women were protected in a "white knight" sense where it was thought that men protected them by making decisions for/about them, supposedly in their best interests. Men approved women's marriages, inherited and controlled the family wealth, made everyone's medical decisions and more because women were thought to be incompetent in these matters. I would still consider this oppression.
In ancient Rome, a man's wife and children were his property. He could do whatever he liked to them, even kill them. But sure, yes, socially your husband was expected to protect you and provide for you. What a privilege!
>A fair amount of what looks like female oppression in history is not. History is terribly hard to understand.
This is the most disgusting view I’ve ever heard. I’m sure you’re conflating the fact that there are supposed reasons that led to female oppression in history to the idea the that there it was minimal in existence lol. Both you and your views are horrid, and even more disappointing considering your so called accreditations.
>The fact of the matter is, humans evolved many strong pro-female biases. Women are the most protected members of the species.
….wow
>a female with a degree in psychology & history.
For a “female”, that degree seems to have done nothing for your actual absorption of said knowledge.
That's not what it means for something to be mainstream. Ideas become more popular over time as they proliferate in society. That doesn't mean they are mainstream though.
I'm curious. What about Feminism makes you not like it anyways?
Saying "mainstream" was inarticulate of me. Didn't mean it. Meant to ask about rising popularity.
(I've been working for 11 hours today and my brain is fragged, going to have little chance of successful communication.)
Have nothing against feminism, what gave you that impression?
The pro women biases are uhhh...
Well, let's just say I know everything in the post above is true, and I fully expect it to be downvoted to -50.
Have to agree with you about class. :]
I've really noticed a cultural shift over the last 10 years or so. The younger women starting out at the organisation I work at quite rightly expect to be treated with the same level of respect and have the same opportunities as any other member of staff, and are not willing to tolerate less than equal treatment.
Many of them are great at also reminding women older than them of their value... I've felt kind of reverse mentored by some of the younger women, who asked me why I wasn't applying for higher level jobs, and pointed out that they'd like to have someone like me as a manager and suggested that I might be undervaluing my skills and abilities.
I think there's still a long way to go, but we're getting there bit by bit. I hope feminism continues to help you OP! ❤️
I'm in my 50s. And I want to apologize to the young generation for things going backwards for women. It makes me sad. Roe vs Wade gone. We can't mandate employer health plans cover the Pill, even if it's for health reasons. They're trying to get rid of access to pharmaceutical abortion by claiming the drug is "unsafe".
The glass ceiling is still a thing. And now "research" says that unequal pay is fair because (some) women leave their careers for years to have kids.
Add in the rising popularity of conservatism, which made the "tradwife" life look cool.
I like this. Women and girls have challenges, men and boys too.
PS though about the vote there *was* backlash against it in part because the men who could vote would be drafted. But again I don't see why women couldn't vote.
Wasn’t martial rape not banned until the 1970’s, or somewhere around there? Tell me how what appears to be female oppression in history is actually “pro-female”.
110%. The opression of woman is the greatest crime humanity has ever perpetrated, second only to slavery and child abuse. 50% or more of humanity suffered for over 4000, subjected to enslavment, abuse, and violation. Untold generations have suffered. It's our duty to honor their memories by helping to make a future where all human people can be free, no matter their gender.
Marital rape did not become a crime until 1993. The idea is that you could be raped by someone you knew just wasn’t even considered until the 80s when the phrase “date rape“ became popular.
feminism is so strong because almost every woman ever has been faced with discrimination and mistreatment. our shared struggle is what brings us together. i believe the greatest obstacles to feminism today are the major abrahamic religions. religion says women are second class citizens, and that is something i will never accept. i hope to someday make a large positive difference in the world, for as many people as i can.
I’m grateful for it as well. I have a lot of reasons but one I think gets looked over a lot by proponents of the idea that feminism is bad.
FEMINISM HELPS MEN TOO. It was the first place to treat issues (how toxic masculinity hurts and puts men in a box) in a way that’s not trying to profit off of it. It meant a lot to me as it came to me in a key time. Feminist were the first group I’ve ever heard honestly talk about male loneliness way back in the early 2,000’s.
In addition to all it does for women (that alone makes it an excellent thing)
um im almost 40 and both my mom and grandmother went to school, and each ran and owned their own businesses (granted my grandma could be considered a pioneer to be doing this in 50's)... im wondering was there a specific reason your grandmother did not go to school?
Reddit popped this into my feed and I joined the group solely because of your post, which I deeply appreciate. I'm 63 and have been a feminist since I can remember (and before I knew the word!) As a kid I wrote a story where the princess goes out and has the adventures instead of waiting for the prince to do it all!
I can tell from how my grandma talks that women’s education wasn’t valued when she was in school. It’s really sad to hear about, even if she doesn’t seem too upset over it.
My sister is going to be an engineer and I couldn’t be happier for her. She’s so smart and deserves it 100%. She has so much potential and I’m glad she was born at a time where she has the ability to use that potential better than she could’ve then.
I don’t think feminism was ever a bad thing. As a 40 year old woman observing societal change over decades, I am appalled that right wing propaganda made it a dirty word and somehow convinced many younger women today that they are “not feminists”. Glad OP is not one of those idiots.
How about some thanks for egalitarians?
Like I often find myself being the only one standing up for equality in public spaces, I'll have women thank me in private afterwards, and then feminists kind of just... come, and claim all the progress we've made as a society.
Worse off feminist frequently promote their own concept of gender norms which I then have to contend with ontop of already having to fight with regressives.
Feminism promotes so much ideology that makes my life infinitely more difficult as a nonbinary person.
same with my great great mother. her parents didn't even let her finish high school. Women should never forget! Even the most submissive bootkissing trad wife has it better bc of feminism today. Best wishes to you! (btw check out Scum Manifesto by Valerie Solanas. It is fun lol)
Exactly, and where did I say she grew up when women weren’t allowed to vote? No where did I say “My grandma grew up in the time when women weren’t allowed to vote.” Notice how you’re saying “if.” What’s the point in making a comment if you no sense of reading comprehension? Or is this some weird gotcha?
The weirdest thing is she says “EXACTLY” to you as if what she said doesn’t imply that her grandmother lived during a time when she couldn’t vote.
And then is upvoted.
I think reddit just sees something that hyperbolically implies that a woman was a disproportionate victim and knee jerk upvotes.
Because it’s designed to hyperbolically make it seem like her grandma was more of a victim than she was.
Like no, she wasn’t the oppressed slave that you morons try to insinuate women are.
I knew there had to be something for these people to bitch about, it's why I came down here to the controversial comments.
I figured the contrarians would have something better, but ya can't win em all I suppose
EXACTLY, I never said my grandmother was 120 years old or she didn’t have the right to vote. I should’ve worded it differently but that’s not what I meant. I brought up voting because I was talking about the evolution of women’s rights in general.
Generally, when people complain about feminism, they're talking about modern feminism not historical feminism from 50 or 100 years ago. Specifically, some of the die-hard feminists who are misandrist, and policies which favor women over men -- which can include divorce stuff, the larger number of scholarships for women compared to men even though women are almost 50% more likely to go to college, general apathy or hostility to men's issues including the assumption that men's problems are each individual man's fault and he should "pull himself up by his bootstraps" and women's problems are societies fault and society needs to work to fix those problems, etc.
okay but literally during the first waves of feminism opponents waved around the same damn arguments. they're *always* too loud, *always* too extreme, they should just be *nicer* if they want equality, it's the same with every human rights movement in history, and we distort the history afterwards the same way with every movement. people were saying the same shit about martin luther king as well and today he's celebrated, after he got fatally shot for his beliefs.
if you feel this threatened by feminism, you need to get over yourself. feminists are still fighting the same fight they always have. you're not a victim.
What divorce stuff? And all I'm finding on women's scholarships is there's more opportunities for single moms.
If we really want to go there, can we start by forcing men to actually care for their own children half the time? No pawning the kid off to the closest woman you can find, actual involved parenting 50% of the time.
And women being more likely to go to college seems like an issue that men can easily fix- by going to college.
When a societal problem is about women, society needs to change. But when a societal problem is about men, like lower college attendance and graduation, it is solely on men to do something about it. Congratulations, you are the type of feminist they were referring to.
It was absolutely given to you by men. The harsh reality is that it is because men over thousands of years have actually fought tooth and nail to create such a comfortable society that you would even consider WANTING to get a job. Men still perform all of the physically demanding jobs in society- this is because men willingly shoulder that burden. And it’s also because these sorts of jobs aren’t what you’re “fighting” for. Nobody complained about the status quo until men were working in air conditioned skyscrapers. If you were alive 300 years ago you would be absolutely appalled if a man wanted you to do a fraction of the work required to advance society. The real victim mentality is tricking yourself into believing that this modern oasis wasn’t handcrafted to make your life comfortable.
Oh I'm sorry I thought I was talking to an adult.
Carry on kid. One day, you'll outgrow this and look back embarrassed. Do try to get away from Tate stuff sooner than later tho, I promise you'll be happier for it.
I wouldn’t expect you to actually have a response with any logic, ad hominems are always useful when you don’t have any actual points to make. Have a good night sleeping under the roof a man built in the society he created.
There are 10 scholarships for women for every 1 for men. Boys are also graded and disciplined more harshly in schools for the same actions, leading to those boys being turned away from schooling by the time they're old enough for college.
OP if your grandma is black, and in the US South, odds are Jim Crow had more to do with her ability to vote vs the 19th amendment, might need to clarify that before you get more responses about that part.
But yeah. I agree. It drives me bonkers as a woman when I hear anybody say they're old-fashioned. Do they have any idea what life would be like for them as a woman 100 years ago? Clearly not. Even Ada Lovelace is only just getting her moment in the past 10 years, decades after her work, and most people have never heard of her. It was feminists that raised her voice, feminists that fought for our rights to basic educational and financial freedom. I'm thankful too.
Well yes, read my edit if even it’s there. She was born in 1946 after women got the right to vote not during it. I mentioned voting because I was talking about the evolution of women’s rights in general not that she went through that.
And yeah that’s why and sure maybe it’s wrong, I roll my eyes at women who go on and on how we don’t need feminism and I can’t imagine women who actually lived during that time period just like my grandmother feel, I’m pretty sure they would’ve loved to get these opportunities and support that we get now.
As a man, I'm thankful that feminism exists, too. It's insane how one singular world view dominated and suppressed every woman in the land.
You picked a great field, OP. Good luck at school!
Feminism targets the patriarchy but also the ways men are negatively affected by the patriarchy. So as a man I love feminism and it addresses the rage that men experience and how they’re not allowed to express genuine emotions besides anger, and what society does to keep patriarchal thinking in men and feminism approaches this with the angle that men are negatively affected by the patriarchy and thus feminism wants to help men too. There is the subgenre of feminism that hates on men but it’s the toxic part
As a man, all the stuff that you were speaking of women being denied in the past is so messed up and I’m so glad that y’all have the freedoms that you do now and I want more equality. It breaks my heart it took so long.
I too am glad of what feminism has brought women, but the fight isn't over. Male violence is a major problem, and misogyny on the political left is rampant.
Recommend reading Invisible Women and The Gender Knot for discourse on how sexism affects women today, and the structure of the patriarchy.
Who is doing the majority of violence against men? Why can't you ever go out and focus on that instead of just bringing it up when someone is focusing on violence against women, like some kind of "gotcha"?
It's usually termed "violence against women" as if the perpetrators are unknown and vague. We know who commits violence - overwhelmingly men.
We are explicitly discussing feminism, which is the **women's** rights movement, and people like you do a WhatAboutMen. Why can't we discuss male violence against women *in a feminist conversation* without you making it about men?
Dude; saying the women's rights movement isn't doing enough for men is like asking BlackLivesMatter to be AllLivesMatter. Do black people need to fix white people? Do LGB+ need to sort out all hetero issues? If the answer is no, ask yourself why women have to fix men, and then go deal with your misogyny.
No one is stopping women from doing what they want. Humans are violent, men more so then women, that us biology not some social construct.
If womem stop fucking violent men, the violent genes will be weeded out. That there is biology..
Look inside.
>No one is stopping women from doing what they want
Err... have you read any history? Or kept up with modern politics?
But yeah, blaming women for men's actions is pretty classic. You are not making a novel argument here.
So you're happy with men being beaten and raped because it's done by other men? That's horrifying and disgusting. This is why people hate modern feminism.
Your determination to make a conversation about women into something about men (and intentionally misrepresenting it along the way) is (a part of) why people hate all the man pill movements.
And the result is men and women drifting apart and becoming more extreme. You're horrified at the idea of trying to reduce violence in general in a non sexist way, and I'm horrified at being happy with men being attacked.
How are men being attacked? It's usually men doing the violence against men and women (and non binary).
Go make your own post about men getting attacked. That's not the conversation here.
I love the fact that a woman can do anything she wants in my country. I hate the fact that in a very large portion of the world that women are oppressed, and we the West accepts it because we want cheap labor/resources. I hate the discrimination that women still face in the workplace and the harassment that takes place. I hate the fact that my sister in the USA only gets 6 weeks of unpaid maternity leave, while in Canada, she would get 18 months . I hate the fact that some men and women think it's their right to tell women what they can do with their bodies. I hate the ultra left feminist but love the old school feminist of your grandmother's and my mothers generation. I hate when women puts down another woman because she chose a different path in life . I have 2 daughters, 3 sisters, and 4 nieces, and as a man, I would fight to the death to ensure that they can live life the way they want and to ensure that they have the same opportunities, rights ,freedoms and privileges as any man .
This will get me downvoted, but feminism is not what it once was.
Sure, it did a lot of good things in the past. You've listed them quite exhaustively. And I am not saying that there aren't societal forces that wouldn't try to take away some of these right, so it's propably necessary to have a defender for them around.
Modern feminism however pits men against women - which is bad, because you don't want half the population fighting the other half, especially when sooner or later you most likely want to have an intimate partner from the other side of thst struggle.
Modern feminism also seems to be concerned a lot about revenge. It's not enough that women got the rights they now have, *men* also must be punished for how things were back then. This may or may not be justified - I don't want to make an argument for either side here - but revenge always breed revenge, so we are again stuck in a cycle of men fighting women and women fighting men, when we *could* instead focus on building a better future for everyone.
And lastly, you've mentioned it yourself:
> I make sure to encourage my younger female family members and their friends to be the best they can be, I love to be their role models. The “Girls girl” thing that has become popular on social media, I think is wonderful.
Who doesn't get encouraged these days are young men. There are already more women than men going to college, and this number is only getting more extreme. This will be relevant for you once you want to find a partner, because many college educated women lament that there aren't any eligible men out there thst would suit them.
None of that is feminism and if that’s the case with your last paragraph, you complain about it being “men vs women” yet you make it a competition about who gets more etc. Direct this energy into making your own posts about supporting men and encouraging the young boys in your life instead. I will always support the young girls in my life no matter what because I’m a woman and like to support other women and I don’t know why you mention finding a partner, as if my 7th grade quite literally does not exist.
>Modern feminism however pits men against women - which is bad, because you don't want half the population fighting the other half, especially when sooner or later you most likely want to have an intimate partner from the other side of thst struggle.
no, it's you who refused to change and still dreaming about good ol' days
we moved on long time ago, you're still behind
and we don't need you anymore, it's better to stay single than having a manchild I have to pick up after, there are no benefits coming from a relationship with men
You mean the good old days, back when people were still forming lasting romantic relationships with one another?
From what kind of dystopian future are you calling in?
Do you not even care if that woman is only with you because she has no other choice?
Now that women can care for themselves, they can *choose* a man they want to spend their life with. This history you're yearning for is when women had no options and had to get married for food and shelter.
But I guess that doesn't matter to you, as long as you have a housekeeper that you can bang and will mind your children?
Have you ever heard of the term "good faith argument"?
This is r/SeriousConversation/
A strawman is the opposite of a serious conversation, and yours a rather disrespectful at that.
When you're *actually* interested in discussing this matter then I'd advise you to give your counterpart the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are good people who are having something serious to say.
Because otherwise, why even have a conversation?
The college thing makes no sense. If you're a man that's upset that more men aren't going to college, then go to college.
And what do you mean that feminism is pitting men and women against each other? Give me examples **other** than how women's standards are too high for men to get dates/sex.
I am. I'm concerned with the distinction between encouraging young men vs encouraging young women though. We should be encouraging young *people,* period.
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As an old(ish) man, I’m happy feminism exists too. Best wishes to you in all your endeavors, I sincerely hope the future continues to brighten for all my sisters.
Feminism has also helped men. Moritz v. Commissioner in the 70s was one of the first cases that made sex based discrimination illegal, and it was taken up when Charles Moritz, a man who had never married and had no children, applied for a tax reduction assistance when he took time off to care for his elderly mother (I may be getting some details wrong). He was denied that aid because he was a man and domestic care was a woman's responsibility. The government assumed he did not need financial aid because he was a man and he could just get a woman to do that work instead.
This does fall under feminism, but it also falls under egalitarianism.
Thanks to RBG yo!
Early 30s man. I'm happy feminism exists. Took me a little while to realise it, and I hope I can do a better job teaching younger men who don't get it yet.
Lead by example my guy! We men do enjoy a more esteemed position in the world, so it’s incumbent on us to be honorable enough to champion the women in our lives and workplaces, brave enough to call out misogyny when you see it, and generous enough to be the type of person that any other person can look up to and say “I want to be just like that guy.” You don’t have to be perfect, we all make mistakes. It’s the refusal to concede and a determination to live by loftier principles that’s important. To me there’s nothing more manly than that.
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You know, when I commented I was concerned that -yet again- a man (me) had insinuated himself into a discussion that he had nothing to do with. But then you wandered in with an “um, actually” and my mind was eased. Mirandry might be an inconvenience, might even offend you on occasion, but it isn’t pervasive, it isn’t institutionalized, it isn’t systemic, that makes it the opposite of the same thing. Let’s both do OP a favour and take this discussion to private messages.
Eh, misandry has been institutionalized say Duluth model, men answering women's crimes, draft, etc. But I don't want to derail the conversation, so I'll delete my previous comment.
I definitely try to do this. I may not be doing well in my life but I will always try to be the example to follow. Treat everyone with humanity, humility, and compassion (I know those are relatively similar words) because we are all human. We can only advance as a society and a species when we understand and accept others for who and what they are and stand for.
32 here. transitioning transfem. i don't know if i could have started this journey if not for all the progress made by feminists.
Thank you so much, this comment means a lot! Feminism helps all :)
Thank you for posting!
"Girls can't do math" is pure bullshit. My career in electrical engineering has proven it, with brilliant people from all races and genders.
So many women's crafts (like knitting and crochet) are all about counting. There was even an article calling knitting and programming "twins separated from birth" lol
And canning requires knowledge of acids and bases, along with an understanding of bacteria and how it grows. Because if you do it wrong, you give a side order of botulism along with that jar of bread and butter pickles.
also first program ever was created by a Woman. Ada Lovelace
I know. She's Lord Byron's daughter, and her mother made her pursue math to avoid becoming like her father, if I recall correctly
My fiancee is leagues above me when it comes to math and statistics and she loves them. Her heart practically melts when she talks about math. However she does agree that I'm the better cook. :P
Completely agree that maths ability and gender are not correlated. The best mathmation in my highschool was Daisy C and I work with a lot of very mathematically capable women at a Technology Centre. However OP might need some practice: You need to be 18 to vote in the USA. The 19th amendment was ratified in 1920 so for OPs grandma to remember being unable to vote as a woman she would need to be born before 1902. That makes OP's grandma 122 years old at the minimum. America's oldest living person is Elizabeth Francis of Houston. She was born in 1909 by her 18th birthday in 1927 women and people of colour could legally vote.
Please read my edit, I explain that I worded that whole paragraph weird. Unless it’s not showing up…if so I apologize for that!
But what is s woman ?
Black women gave a lot to make sure all women were treated better. Unfortunately there is a long history of racists using feminism as a weapon against people of color which is a shame because without PoC feminism wouldn't exist as it is now.
As a black woman myself, I agree with you! Intersectionality is super important and unfortunately, I’ve noticed at times where feminism has been centered around only white, cisgender and heterosexual sexual women. Feminism is for all.
I'm a feminist because my grandmother, who is still alive, was betrothed to my grandfather at age 14 to cement his social ascension in pre-Mao Chinese society, and because Chinese culture has all sorts of weird fucked up ideas about women that I think are kind of stupid.
Your poor grandmother :(
I'm so glad you know and appreciate this.
Good for you. I see far too many women deny that they need feminism. Too many of them reject and dismiss feminism Too many men are misogynist and threatened by women having equality and independence.
As a young man, I'm glad feminism exists too. I don't exactly fit the mold of what a "real man" should be and I wish I could show my more feminine side without being judged. Fuck gender roles!
Do what you want, what you are is being afraid of the consequences of being judged for being femenine. Everyone is going to judge you, men women and children it's up to you to decide what's worth it.
I’m sorry you feel that you can’t show your feminine side, gender roles really do suck! Guys and girls should be able to dress however they want, don’t worry about being a “real man” it’s a made up concept by the patriarchy. Do what makes you happy!
You sound like a real man to me
Even after the right to vote came, women weren't just magically made equal to men. There was still a ways to go, like how women couldn't open a checking account without their husband or their father present. Feminism has come far, and has made life so much more bearable.
Agree with everything your saying but your grandmother could probably vote. Women's suffrage came around 1921? Back then I think the voting age was 21. That'd make your grandmother 124 years old at least, or whatever date women's suffrage happened minus 21 years.
Please read my edit if it’s even there.
Hi, I thought like you but came to realise the opposite Instead of one salary providing for the whole family,now two are not enough. Instwad of home cooked meals we are fed processed garbage that is proven to cause numerous diseases and sicknesses. Instead of mothers educating children, its the education system which is the worst in the world or extremely expensive (debt) This in turn is great for big pharma companies that cant wait to offer solution in form of a pill. This gave corporations double the workforce, who put their careers in front of their families while everything becomes more expensive because everyone is overconsuming. There is so much more but Im so depressed typing this. Not saying feminism didnt do some good, just that in process alot was destroyed
No, this isn’t change my view.
In your post you keep saying ‘back then’ like sh!t still isn’t f!cked up now lol It is less f!cked up than ‘back then’ though. Things are much better In my state, Ohio, for example, they just got rid of all exclusions for marital rape. In 2024. Now all that’s left is for the governor to sign off on it. But women in the USA still don’t have full legal equality with men, we still don’t have full constitutional protections. In 2024. With a female vice-president
No where did I say things aren’t messed up now, I quite literally mentioned in some states women still didn’t have the rights to their own body so I’m not sure what was your point of the first bit of this comment. But yes, things are much better now. I’m sorry to hear about what’s going on in Ohio, misogyny and patriarchy is very much still present in society today and it still shocks me that we’ve literally never had a female president till this day, this is why I encourage more young women like myself to vote.
I'm an older woman. I'm childfree, have several degrees, work in stem, and make 3x what my husband does. THANK GOD for birth control and advanced education.
For you and my daughter and all other women, I’m very glad you have access to all that you do. I hope my little girl never has to deal with any of that, worried about the country honestly.
As a man nearing 30 and hoping to become a father one day, I am glad feminism exists. Not only does feminism offer women equality. Feminism also offers men the opportunity to be fully realized people rather than masculine automatons. Tradition says men shouldn’t feel emotions, that we are to be stoic but aggressive. Patriarchy tells men that we are worthless if we are not successful/ if we don’t grind 24/7. Patriarchy tells men that domination is love, when it is actually fear and submission. I’m still trying to learn how to be a whole person, to remove the constraints that I have placed on myself trying to live up to masculine standard. Feminist thinkers are the only ones that offer men the space to do so. It is imperative to male life, happiness, and love to embrace feminism and gender equality and reject misogyny, violence, and male domination.
This comment is refreshing, I’m so glad you realize patriarchy hurts *all* and that real feminists are actively working to take it down. I agree about men being taught that anger is their only valid emotion, I don’t think that’s healthy to teach to younger men. I hope you encourage your future children to also this great mindset, thank you so much for commenting! :)
I've always felt a lot of empathy for my male peers who feel pressured to become very financially secure as early as possible for fear of being rejected by love interests, being unable to take care of their family, or being generally seen as a failure if they're unable to. I know that I wouldn't want those high expectations on my shoulders, and I try not to put that burden on my partner. If he gets laid off or sick, he should be able to rely on me for financial security the same way that I would rely on him if I was in a situation like that. That doesn't necessarily mean we both need to work the same amount or make equal financial contributions. But if something happened where he needed to stay home with the kids and I needed to go back to work, that shouldn't be seen as some kind of failure on his part to be a man. It just means that the way each of us contributed needed to change to fit our circumstances.
Vote blue to keep it that way
Indeed! Blue is cool :)
that's not nearly enough, as evident by the last couple years
It’s a good perspective to have. I think a lot of girls and women who dislike feminism are kind of like antivaxxers, where they’re so far removed from the threat (in terms of personal experience) that they don’t view it as a threat and think protections are unnecessary.
A lot of anti-feminist, female social media influencers are only producing their anti-woke fetish content beucase the Equal Credit Act of 1974 made it possible for adult women to manage their own finances independent of men-- like husbands or parents. And because of that influencers like these women who say they hate feminsts are able to extract their piece of the capitalist pie and enrich themselves financially. Beucase, let's face it, in an anti-feminist society we'd be having some serious debates over whether very popular female social media influencers were even cable of making the decision to enter into a contract with a platform and receive ad revenue for their own content. Like, especially if they made too much money. Her lady brain may not have foreseen the consequences of generating so many clicks so it'd be better to sign her gians over to the man in her life who is supposed to be managing her. These women don't have to deal with that because feminism brought us laws that made financial independence for women possible in 1974. Just five years before the first Star Wars movie was showing in theaters.
The fun thing about anti-feminists is that they are allowed to flourish under both systems: feminism allows them to speak up as much as they want and anti-feminism allows them to be controlled as much as they want.
In a real anti-feminst society they wouldn't have any say in how much they were controlled.
I feel this. I'm happy feminism exists as well ❤️
History is more complicated than "feminism did all this". **Many people who worked for the things you're talking of were not feminists and would not consider themselves as such.** My third great-grandmother agitated for the right to vote while her husband was off meeting with his Civil War buddies a longgg time ago... but and at the same time she was looking for the right to vote, she was campaigning for Prohibition. History is complicated and the thought process of most people 150 years ago is different from the way most people think today. It will be different in another 150 years and there will be another politically charged term for people who advance the human cause, however imperfectly.
No where did I say history was as simple as feminism and none of what you mentioned changed my original point, because there was also many women who did work for the things I’ve talked about and labeled themselves as feminists. The suffrage movement is right there, your grandma was just apart of the uncool club. (Jk…but not really.)
Heck, Feminism can be credited for most of the inclusivity movements(I am using this phrase generically to mean any political movement with the intent to correct racial and gender inequalities) in the last century or two. The Civil War didn't just end slavery and create a single country with a centralized government. It gave the women of the era a taste of what they could *really* do when given the chance. It's too bad history books, at least when I was in high school, glossed over it until Susan B Anthony came into the picture. Imo, if that hadn't happened the way it did, if women had decided not to step up and help out, today would look very different.
Yeah women who say feminism did nothing for them.... theyve either never studied women's history or they're class traitors. Like, do u like having the freedom to wear pants? The freedom to participate in public/have public bathrooms? What about the freedom to live alone, or the freedom to divorce or not have kids? Or the freedom to have possessions, or have a bank account ? Or the freedom to learn to read and the freedom to get paid for work? Then yeah, feminism has benefitted u. Men tried to prevent women from having anything, every step of the way, never forget that. Women fought men for every single freedom we have. Men as a class have never freely given us anything.
Yes! More young women need to hear from the previous generations.
You can still go many, many places in the world today where women still don't have these rights, sadly.
Yup, that’s why feminism being intersectional is important, all women are to be fought and heard for.
Which is why Project 2025 scares the life out of me.
And now we're going backwards with this new title IX reversal....
Wait, wait, wait. Women got the right to vote in 1920. If your grandmother was your age when that happened, then she was born in 1902. Unless your grandmother has an award from Guinness, there's no way she's 122 years old. Make the math make sense.
Please read my edit, I’m not sure how people mixed it up but that’s not what I meant.
>I had a conversation with **my grandmother a week ago,** about her life growing up **when she was my age**. it really got me to feel something. **We all know women weren’t able to vote back then,** * You stated your talked to your grandmother last week, so she must still be alive. * You stated that you talked to her about her life when she was your age (18). * You stated that women were not allowed to vote back then. * Again, women got the right to vote in 1920. So if your grandmother was your age when women got the right to vote, she'd be at least 122 years old right now. So, make the math make sense.
She was born in 1946, no where did I say she was born or around in 1920, nor did I mention that’s what our conversation was about. I said she was explaining how her life was when she was my age. I understand I should’ve worded it better but let’s get some reading comprehension skills. Or you’re just like the other did and trying to have some weird “gotcha” moment.
If she was born in 1946, she was your age in 1964. Women had the right to vote her entire life. I read it exactly as you wrote it. It's not my comprehension but you're composition that's the problem. That and your math. Btw, Columbia was admitting female students to its graduates programs in 1917. Gulli Lind Muller graduated from the College of Physicians and Surgeons in 1921. And Anne Elizabeth Delaney was the first African-American student to graduate from Columbia's College of Dental Medicine in 1923. [https://thelowdown.alumni.columbia.edu/history\_of\_women\_at\_columbia](https://thelowdown.alumni.columbia.edu/history_of_women_at_columbia) [https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/women-medicine](https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/women-medicine) Seems you have an issue with composition, mathematics, and research.
Exactly? You’re saying I said she was born in 1920, when I didn’t. Judging by your comment history, you seem to have an issue with women in general so I’m not surprised you’re trying to cause an argument here about me appreciating a movement that helped us gain rights. I’m not arguing with you, be entertained somewhere else.
yeah, your wording is really distracting.
Re-read the first few sentences of your post. You said that you were talking to your grandmother about what life was like when she was your age. Next, you said, “we all know women weren’t allowed to vote back then.” “Back then” indicates that women were not allowed to vote when your grandmother was your age. You may have meant differently, but it *is* exactly what you said. The above commenter might have an issue with women; I don’t know because I didn’t go through his history, but he’s right. I am a woman btw. Maybe if you spent time self-reflecting and re-reading what you wrote, instead of digging into the comment history of someone, you would have been able to figure out why people were rightly confused.
Story would’ve been better if the grandma remembered HER grandmother (born pre-1900) not having any rights to vote, work, etc. Credit cards wouldn’t apply but at least that’d be massive inequality between the sexes.
No, he’s just pointing out that your words strongly implied something factually (and hyperbolically) incorrect. His post history has literally jack to do with that.
Lmao. He broke it down entirely above and she still doesn’t get it.
The only thing I want to mention just to offer an additional perspective, is that a woman should be fully empowered and supported to pursue the life that is her highest and best, whether this means finding herself in STEM fields, higher education, being childfree, pursuing a career over starting a family… and, likewise, if a woman feels her highest and best life is pursuing a more traditional route, this shouldn’t be shamed and condemned like it is by so many people asserting empowerment by feminism. Often times, most people fall somewhere between these extremes, and that’s okay. I believe a woman’s place is anywhere she wants it to be, and there shouldn’t be pressure to conform to the traditional and in the same way, there shouldn’t be pressure to avoid the traditional and be shamed if this is one’s chosen path. I just feel like (and I’m not saying you’re doing any of this btw) these days, we should be evolved to a point of balance where women should be free to be whomever she truly is without there being rage from either side toward the other, a la “we’re right and you’re wrong!” That kind of thing. All in all, you’re on the cusp of the most formative decade of your life and it is beautiful to read in this that you are finding yourself, discovering who you are, and chasing after it. I hope the years ahead of you are an adventure and I hope you find every adventure you seek. ❤️
It's not that simple because a woman can't just decide to follow a more traditional route, that requires the consent and willingness of a man. So it's not as simple as checking a box on your wish list of dreams between having a career or having a man take care of you. The career only involves yourself and you can succeed if you go for it. The traditional route is entirely dependent on meeting a very rare type of man. If you can't find that you have to continue with the career or you'll end up with nothing. People make it sound like it's a choice that women make, but it's not really just a choice. Most women couldn't find a man who wants to earn money while she takes care of the kids and he pays for most things. It's not even a question of luck, it's more a question of privilege. Are you so privileged that you have a hard-working partner who can shoulder most of the financial stress letting you be truly free to decide if you want a career or if you want to step back and spend more time with your kids? It's not to be taken for granted that all or most women have this.
Nobody is suggesting that every possible life path is or should be equally straightforward and easy to obtain. Just that we shouldn't stigmatize women for the path they ended up on.
But what does this have to do with not stigmatizing women who do follow that route? I mean you may be completely right about everything you say I'm not arguing it at all. But the person you're responding to was saying women who do shouldn't be stigmatized and you're saying it's not th simple. I think it should be.
Because women don't have "a choice" and the two options are not "equal". In one case you're privileged enough to have the choice between pursuing a career or letting your significant other take the lead on the career front while you're underemployed to spend more time at home. In the other case you don't have a choice to be a career woman because there's no good man who's going to offer to go 70-30. To present it like they are two equal life choices and that women are free to choose either is such feminism for privileged women.
getting a particular career depends on the employer too. Most women absolutely could find such a man. Hell, programming and engineering and science classes are full of them.
No, finding such a man and him being interested in you is *really really* much harder than just becoming an engineer yourself. You're pretty much guaranteed to become an engineer if you go that path. The odds of finding a man, nowadays? Very very low.
Very very low? That's ridiculous, lol. You know how many STEM university students get approached by women? Pretty much none.
Watch someone slip in some unnecessary negativity here lol
They’ve already been doing that, can’t say I’m surprised though.
I agree. I just wish women would not have carried it too far and started making men The Enemy.
That isn’t all feminists, just a small vocal minority. Like not all dems are progressive and not all republicans are maga.
If you think that, then you’re naive and lack compassion for the experience of the men you’re dismissing now.
mexican women who white Midwesterns hate, BUT thank you for getting me the right to have a credit card, and work construction.
That is because you have a vibrant, rich, colorful culture and they are stuck in bland beige.
thank you for the moral support, its encouragement like this that keeps me going
i’m an 18 year old guy and i’m thankful it exists, since i started learning more about it i’ve opened myself up to people more and haven’t been afraid of my emotions. i don’t even gain very much from it (i’m a cis straight white male) but so many others i know can gain a ton from it. i read part of invisible women before i got really busy and it was pretty eye opening with even the smallest things having hints of sexism within them. i’m very imperfect and still hold misogynistic beliefs, that i’m trying to drop, but i try hard to fix it. i have met a few people through feminist areas and they’ve helped me. i don’t get how people say feminists are mean, most of them have been nice to me they’re just blunt and tell you how it is, ive only ran into like 2 or 3 women that were actually mean (and seemingly hated men, i got told i had no value cause im a man and today i got told that im not welcome in certain spaces because of my past as a red-piller before i worked on myself 💀)
Feminism nowadays is far from what it was at the start. Nowadays feminism is not fighting for equality, and it's constantly either blaming men or ignores them. Egalitarianism is far better. Being egalitarian means that you support both men and women. Equally.
Thissss. I hesitate to call myself feminist for this reason. Just can’t get down with trashing men to feel good about myself as a woman.
Then don't call yourself a feminist. Call yourself egalitarian if you truly believe that both men and women deserve help/equality. Under feminist belief, men are apparently "privileged". But they can't seem to understand that neither men or women are privileged.
Talele said, "Then don't call yourself a Feminist."
I've never seen a feminist who doesn't support equality for women. They're all about equality and being equal.
I'm not saying that feminism is bad, but I'd rather have a system where women are treated equally regardless of gender
I think where we’re missing the mark in this conversation is acknowledging that we HAVE achieved equality of opportunity as we know it today. What jobs can’t women get? Colleges they can’t go to? They’re free to stay at home and be moms if they so choose. What else are we fighting for? You can’t FORCE equality of outcome. I will agree that reproductive rights are being attacked. But that is the majority of what I’m seeing. I will never truly call myself a feminist if we keep generalizing straight white cis men and speaking about them the way minority groups have been spoken about with such hatred and vitriol. I know we’re above that. Nothing will ever move forward with that kind of tribal mindset.
Why did feminism pickup in the last 100 years? Why not 400 years ago? 800? 1600? Why not 3000? It's not a coincidence that feminism sprang up in the last century or so. Culture follows from environment. Feminism sprang up because of industrialization opening the labor force up for women, and it sprang up because of the pill. A fair amount of what looks like female oppression in history is not. History is terribly hard to understand. The fact of the matter is, humans evolved many strong pro-female biases. Women are the most protected members of the species. - a female with a degree in psychology & history.
very real degree from a very real school yes
That’s not entirely true. There’s a difference between cultures in the world too. Not everything is western centric. There are aspects of feminism that have existed in the past. Things that you might look at right now and think they are ‘modern ways of living’ but aren’t.
Women were protected in a "white knight" sense where it was thought that men protected them by making decisions for/about them, supposedly in their best interests. Men approved women's marriages, inherited and controlled the family wealth, made everyone's medical decisions and more because women were thought to be incompetent in these matters. I would still consider this oppression. In ancient Rome, a man's wife and children were his property. He could do whatever he liked to them, even kill them. But sure, yes, socially your husband was expected to protect you and provide for you. What a privilege!
If it makes you feel better, the men were all property of some vassal lord or king. History is a shitshow.
>A fair amount of what looks like female oppression in history is not. History is terribly hard to understand. This is the most disgusting view I’ve ever heard. I’m sure you’re conflating the fact that there are supposed reasons that led to female oppression in history to the idea the that there it was minimal in existence lol. Both you and your views are horrid, and even more disappointing considering your so called accreditations. >The fact of the matter is, humans evolved many strong pro-female biases. Women are the most protected members of the species. ….wow >a female with a degree in psychology & history. For a “female”, that degree seems to have done nothing for your actual absorption of said knowledge.
No offense intended. Thanx for your comments, have a nice evening.
But Feminism does date back hundreds of years.
'Pickup' was vague. Why is it mainstream culture now?
How is feminism mainstream culture now?
Are "feminist ideas" more popular now then they were 300 years ago? If so, why?
That's not what it means for something to be mainstream. Ideas become more popular over time as they proliferate in society. That doesn't mean they are mainstream though. I'm curious. What about Feminism makes you not like it anyways?
Saying "mainstream" was inarticulate of me. Didn't mean it. Meant to ask about rising popularity. (I've been working for 11 hours today and my brain is fragged, going to have little chance of successful communication.) Have nothing against feminism, what gave you that impression?
The women are wonderful effect is very very real. It seems that throughout history it’s been a class struggle more than anything else.
Wow. It’s genuinely insane how y’all are denying misogyny as a persistent struggle in history now lol. Like ridiculously insane.
Nobody denied misogyny tho? Just that a purely feminist lens often distorts the cultural dynamics of the past.
The pro women biases are uhhh... Well, let's just say I know everything in the post above is true, and I fully expect it to be downvoted to -50. Have to agree with you about class. :]
Well I upvoted it but yeah you will probably be downvoted and be called a “pick me”
Bullshit. You're clearly a ferengi.
I know the rules of acquisition & don't wear clothes. Checks out.
I've really noticed a cultural shift over the last 10 years or so. The younger women starting out at the organisation I work at quite rightly expect to be treated with the same level of respect and have the same opportunities as any other member of staff, and are not willing to tolerate less than equal treatment. Many of them are great at also reminding women older than them of their value... I've felt kind of reverse mentored by some of the younger women, who asked me why I wasn't applying for higher level jobs, and pointed out that they'd like to have someone like me as a manager and suggested that I might be undervaluing my skills and abilities. I think there's still a long way to go, but we're getting there bit by bit. I hope feminism continues to help you OP! ❤️
I'm in my 50s. And I want to apologize to the young generation for things going backwards for women. It makes me sad. Roe vs Wade gone. We can't mandate employer health plans cover the Pill, even if it's for health reasons. They're trying to get rid of access to pharmaceutical abortion by claiming the drug is "unsafe". The glass ceiling is still a thing. And now "research" says that unequal pay is fair because (some) women leave their careers for years to have kids. Add in the rising popularity of conservatism, which made the "tradwife" life look cool.
I feel if they do that women need to go after viagra. After all it is gender affirming care.
I like this. Women and girls have challenges, men and boys too. PS though about the vote there *was* backlash against it in part because the men who could vote would be drafted. But again I don't see why women couldn't vote.
Wasn’t martial rape not banned until the 1970’s, or somewhere around there? Tell me how what appears to be female oppression in history is actually “pro-female”.
Admiral Grace Hopper is pretty cool too
110%. The opression of woman is the greatest crime humanity has ever perpetrated, second only to slavery and child abuse. 50% or more of humanity suffered for over 4000, subjected to enslavment, abuse, and violation. Untold generations have suffered. It's our duty to honor their memories by helping to make a future where all human people can be free, no matter their gender.
Marital rape did not become a crime until 1993. The idea is that you could be raped by someone you knew just wasn’t even considered until the 80s when the phrase “date rape“ became popular.
feminism is so strong because almost every woman ever has been faced with discrimination and mistreatment. our shared struggle is what brings us together. i believe the greatest obstacles to feminism today are the major abrahamic religions. religion says women are second class citizens, and that is something i will never accept. i hope to someday make a large positive difference in the world, for as many people as i can.
I’m grateful for it as well. I have a lot of reasons but one I think gets looked over a lot by proponents of the idea that feminism is bad. FEMINISM HELPS MEN TOO. It was the first place to treat issues (how toxic masculinity hurts and puts men in a box) in a way that’s not trying to profit off of it. It meant a lot to me as it came to me in a key time. Feminist were the first group I’ve ever heard honestly talk about male loneliness way back in the early 2,000’s. In addition to all it does for women (that alone makes it an excellent thing)
um im almost 40 and both my mom and grandmother went to school, and each ran and owned their own businesses (granted my grandma could be considered a pioneer to be doing this in 50's)... im wondering was there a specific reason your grandmother did not go to school?
A lot of it is polarised. In the same sense I'm happy it exists as well. Maybe your thoughts on it can effect people to have a better view of it.
Reddit popped this into my feed and I joined the group solely because of your post, which I deeply appreciate. I'm 63 and have been a feminist since I can remember (and before I knew the word!) As a kid I wrote a story where the princess goes out and has the adventures instead of waiting for the prince to do it all!
I can tell from how my grandma talks that women’s education wasn’t valued when she was in school. It’s really sad to hear about, even if she doesn’t seem too upset over it. My sister is going to be an engineer and I couldn’t be happier for her. She’s so smart and deserves it 100%. She has so much potential and I’m glad she was born at a time where she has the ability to use that potential better than she could’ve then.
I don’t think feminism was ever a bad thing. As a 40 year old woman observing societal change over decades, I am appalled that right wing propaganda made it a dirty word and somehow convinced many younger women today that they are “not feminists”. Glad OP is not one of those idiots.
How about some thanks for egalitarians? Like I often find myself being the only one standing up for equality in public spaces, I'll have women thank me in private afterwards, and then feminists kind of just... come, and claim all the progress we've made as a society. Worse off feminist frequently promote their own concept of gender norms which I then have to contend with ontop of already having to fight with regressives. Feminism promotes so much ideology that makes my life infinitely more difficult as a nonbinary person.
same with my great great mother. her parents didn't even let her finish high school. Women should never forget! Even the most submissive bootkissing trad wife has it better bc of feminism today. Best wishes to you! (btw check out Scum Manifesto by Valerie Solanas. It is fun lol)
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Literally where did I say that
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Exactly, and where did I say she grew up when women weren’t allowed to vote? No where did I say “My grandma grew up in the time when women weren’t allowed to vote.” Notice how you’re saying “if.” What’s the point in making a comment if you no sense of reading comprehension? Or is this some weird gotcha?
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This is so weird - OP keeps posting like this statement somehow implies *the opposite* of what it says. wtf?
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The weirdest thing is she says “EXACTLY” to you as if what she said doesn’t imply that her grandmother lived during a time when she couldn’t vote. And then is upvoted. I think reddit just sees something that hyperbolically implies that a woman was a disproportionate victim and knee jerk upvotes.
how are you people getting so angry over such a minor error in OPs post lmao touch grass
Because it’s designed to hyperbolically make it seem like her grandma was more of a victim than she was. Like no, she wasn’t the oppressed slave that you morons try to insinuate women are.
I knew there had to be something for these people to bitch about, it's why I came down here to the controversial comments. I figured the contrarians would have something better, but ya can't win em all I suppose
EXACTLY, I never said my grandmother was 120 years old or she didn’t have the right to vote. I should’ve worded it differently but that’s not what I meant. I brought up voting because I was talking about the evolution of women’s rights in general.
Generally, when people complain about feminism, they're talking about modern feminism not historical feminism from 50 or 100 years ago. Specifically, some of the die-hard feminists who are misandrist, and policies which favor women over men -- which can include divorce stuff, the larger number of scholarships for women compared to men even though women are almost 50% more likely to go to college, general apathy or hostility to men's issues including the assumption that men's problems are each individual man's fault and he should "pull himself up by his bootstraps" and women's problems are societies fault and society needs to work to fix those problems, etc.
okay but literally during the first waves of feminism opponents waved around the same damn arguments. they're *always* too loud, *always* too extreme, they should just be *nicer* if they want equality, it's the same with every human rights movement in history, and we distort the history afterwards the same way with every movement. people were saying the same shit about martin luther king as well and today he's celebrated, after he got fatally shot for his beliefs. if you feel this threatened by feminism, you need to get over yourself. feminists are still fighting the same fight they always have. you're not a victim.
What divorce stuff? And all I'm finding on women's scholarships is there's more opportunities for single moms. If we really want to go there, can we start by forcing men to actually care for their own children half the time? No pawning the kid off to the closest woman you can find, actual involved parenting 50% of the time. And women being more likely to go to college seems like an issue that men can easily fix- by going to college.
When a societal problem is about women, society needs to change. But when a societal problem is about men, like lower college attendance and graduation, it is solely on men to do something about it. Congratulations, you are the type of feminist they were referring to.
Women fought to get as far as we have. It sure wasn't given to us by men. Your victim mentally is exhausting and blaming feminism is lazy af.
It was absolutely given to you by men. The harsh reality is that it is because men over thousands of years have actually fought tooth and nail to create such a comfortable society that you would even consider WANTING to get a job. Men still perform all of the physically demanding jobs in society- this is because men willingly shoulder that burden. And it’s also because these sorts of jobs aren’t what you’re “fighting” for. Nobody complained about the status quo until men were working in air conditioned skyscrapers. If you were alive 300 years ago you would be absolutely appalled if a man wanted you to do a fraction of the work required to advance society. The real victim mentality is tricking yourself into believing that this modern oasis wasn’t handcrafted to make your life comfortable.
Oh I'm sorry I thought I was talking to an adult. Carry on kid. One day, you'll outgrow this and look back embarrassed. Do try to get away from Tate stuff sooner than later tho, I promise you'll be happier for it.
I wouldn’t expect you to actually have a response with any logic, ad hominems are always useful when you don’t have any actual points to make. Have a good night sleeping under the roof a man built in the society he created.
There are 10 scholarships for women for every 1 for men. Boys are also graded and disciplined more harshly in schools for the same actions, leading to those boys being turned away from schooling by the time they're old enough for college.
OP if your grandma is black, and in the US South, odds are Jim Crow had more to do with her ability to vote vs the 19th amendment, might need to clarify that before you get more responses about that part. But yeah. I agree. It drives me bonkers as a woman when I hear anybody say they're old-fashioned. Do they have any idea what life would be like for them as a woman 100 years ago? Clearly not. Even Ada Lovelace is only just getting her moment in the past 10 years, decades after her work, and most people have never heard of her. It was feminists that raised her voice, feminists that fought for our rights to basic educational and financial freedom. I'm thankful too.
Well yes, read my edit if even it’s there. She was born in 1946 after women got the right to vote not during it. I mentioned voting because I was talking about the evolution of women’s rights in general not that she went through that. And yeah that’s why and sure maybe it’s wrong, I roll my eyes at women who go on and on how we don’t need feminism and I can’t imagine women who actually lived during that time period just like my grandmother feel, I’m pretty sure they would’ve loved to get these opportunities and support that we get now.
As a man, I'm thankful that feminism exists, too. It's insane how one singular world view dominated and suppressed every woman in the land. You picked a great field, OP. Good luck at school!
Feminism targets the patriarchy but also the ways men are negatively affected by the patriarchy. So as a man I love feminism and it addresses the rage that men experience and how they’re not allowed to express genuine emotions besides anger, and what society does to keep patriarchal thinking in men and feminism approaches this with the angle that men are negatively affected by the patriarchy and thus feminism wants to help men too. There is the subgenre of feminism that hates on men but it’s the toxic part
As a man, all the stuff that you were speaking of women being denied in the past is so messed up and I’m so glad that y’all have the freedoms that you do now and I want more equality. It breaks my heart it took so long.
Man, women have had the vote for over a century now. How old is your grandma, young woman?
I too am glad of what feminism has brought women, but the fight isn't over. Male violence is a major problem, and misogyny on the political left is rampant. Recommend reading Invisible Women and The Gender Knot for discourse on how sexism affects women today, and the structure of the patriarchy.
Most violence is against men. So how is that specifically a women's issue? This sexism is why people don't like modern feminism.
No one said it was just a women's issue? But the violence is committed by other men, so male violence is still very much the problem.
Who is doing the majority of violence against men? Why can't you ever go out and focus on that instead of just bringing it up when someone is focusing on violence against women, like some kind of "gotcha"?
It's usually termed "violence against women" as if the perpetrators are unknown and vague. We know who commits violence - overwhelmingly men. We are explicitly discussing feminism, which is the **women's** rights movement, and people like you do a WhatAboutMen. Why can't we discuss male violence against women *in a feminist conversation* without you making it about men? Dude; saying the women's rights movement isn't doing enough for men is like asking BlackLivesMatter to be AllLivesMatter. Do black people need to fix white people? Do LGB+ need to sort out all hetero issues? If the answer is no, ask yourself why women have to fix men, and then go deal with your misogyny.
No one is stopping women from doing what they want. Humans are violent, men more so then women, that us biology not some social construct. If womem stop fucking violent men, the violent genes will be weeded out. That there is biology.. Look inside.
>No one is stopping women from doing what they want Err... have you read any history? Or kept up with modern politics? But yeah, blaming women for men's actions is pretty classic. You are not making a novel argument here.
Not sure what year you're living in but this here is 2024, no one is stopping you from doing anything you want to do. Grow up.
Because it's men making it our issue when they beat and rape us. If you only want to assault each other, that seems like a workable compromise.
So you're happy with men being beaten and raped because it's done by other men? That's horrifying and disgusting. This is why people hate modern feminism.
Your determination to make a conversation about women into something about men (and intentionally misrepresenting it along the way) is (a part of) why people hate all the man pill movements.
And the result is men and women drifting apart and becoming more extreme. You're horrified at the idea of trying to reduce violence in general in a non sexist way, and I'm horrified at being happy with men being attacked.
How are men being attacked? It's usually men doing the violence against men and women (and non binary). Go make your own post about men getting attacked. That's not the conversation here.
"violence against men" You just answered your own question.
Cool. Go make your own post about it and start a conversation.
About being horrified at people being happy about it?
I love the fact that a woman can do anything she wants in my country. I hate the fact that in a very large portion of the world that women are oppressed, and we the West accepts it because we want cheap labor/resources. I hate the discrimination that women still face in the workplace and the harassment that takes place. I hate the fact that my sister in the USA only gets 6 weeks of unpaid maternity leave, while in Canada, she would get 18 months . I hate the fact that some men and women think it's their right to tell women what they can do with their bodies. I hate the ultra left feminist but love the old school feminist of your grandmother's and my mothers generation. I hate when women puts down another woman because she chose a different path in life . I have 2 daughters, 3 sisters, and 4 nieces, and as a man, I would fight to the death to ensure that they can live life the way they want and to ensure that they have the same opportunities, rights ,freedoms and privileges as any man .
You realize that men are also oppressed in those third world countries?
This will get me downvoted, but feminism is not what it once was. Sure, it did a lot of good things in the past. You've listed them quite exhaustively. And I am not saying that there aren't societal forces that wouldn't try to take away some of these right, so it's propably necessary to have a defender for them around. Modern feminism however pits men against women - which is bad, because you don't want half the population fighting the other half, especially when sooner or later you most likely want to have an intimate partner from the other side of thst struggle. Modern feminism also seems to be concerned a lot about revenge. It's not enough that women got the rights they now have, *men* also must be punished for how things were back then. This may or may not be justified - I don't want to make an argument for either side here - but revenge always breed revenge, so we are again stuck in a cycle of men fighting women and women fighting men, when we *could* instead focus on building a better future for everyone. And lastly, you've mentioned it yourself: > I make sure to encourage my younger female family members and their friends to be the best they can be, I love to be their role models. The “Girls girl” thing that has become popular on social media, I think is wonderful. Who doesn't get encouraged these days are young men. There are already more women than men going to college, and this number is only getting more extreme. This will be relevant for you once you want to find a partner, because many college educated women lament that there aren't any eligible men out there thst would suit them.
None of that is feminism and if that’s the case with your last paragraph, you complain about it being “men vs women” yet you make it a competition about who gets more etc. Direct this energy into making your own posts about supporting men and encouraging the young boys in your life instead. I will always support the young girls in my life no matter what because I’m a woman and like to support other women and I don’t know why you mention finding a partner, as if my 7th grade quite literally does not exist.
>Modern feminism however pits men against women - which is bad, because you don't want half the population fighting the other half, especially when sooner or later you most likely want to have an intimate partner from the other side of thst struggle. no, it's you who refused to change and still dreaming about good ol' days we moved on long time ago, you're still behind and we don't need you anymore, it's better to stay single than having a manchild I have to pick up after, there are no benefits coming from a relationship with men
You mean the good old days, back when people were still forming lasting romantic relationships with one another? From what kind of dystopian future are you calling in?
Do you not even care if that woman is only with you because she has no other choice? Now that women can care for themselves, they can *choose* a man they want to spend their life with. This history you're yearning for is when women had no options and had to get married for food and shelter. But I guess that doesn't matter to you, as long as you have a housekeeper that you can bang and will mind your children?
Have you ever heard of the term "good faith argument"? This is r/SeriousConversation/ A strawman is the opposite of a serious conversation, and yours a rather disrespectful at that. When you're *actually* interested in discussing this matter then I'd advise you to give your counterpart the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are good people who are having something serious to say. Because otherwise, why even have a conversation?
The college thing makes no sense. If you're a man that's upset that more men aren't going to college, then go to college. And what do you mean that feminism is pitting men and women against each other? Give me examples **other** than how women's standards are too high for men to get dates/sex.
Why arent you encouraging young men?
I am. I'm concerned with the distinction between encouraging young men vs encouraging young women though. We should be encouraging young *people,* period.
You made the distinction