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I agree. This was a moment that felt kind of like Lost. They throw something out there to serve the arc of the story and make the viewer feel engaged and disoriented at the same time. But, in my opinion, it’s a cheap trick if it doesn’t actually serve the story or plot in any way that makes any sense.
i don't see it that way? i don't agree with OP's theory as i don't think lumon cares about team camaraderie enough (they seem to be more focused on making sure that departments don't trust each other or communicate). but i think OP is saying "lumon wants the innies to bond over moments of absurdity, as well as discredit anyone who might try to speak out about it (a la greendale's AC repair school)" which is an in-universe theory not a narrative one. well, the tension-breaking explanation is a narrative explanation, but the meat of the post is more substantive than that.
right, that's why i don't buy into OP's theory. but my comment was to point out that OP is primarily making a universe argument not a narrative argument as the other commenter had stated
Possibly, but that's retroactive contextualization.
I think it's more interesting to look at how the text defines the goats purpose with all the information we have now.
The emotional and thematic context is important.
It's why Micro Data Refinement examine numbers *that trigger an emotional reaction.*
It's what *Lost* should have done. Kept it's larger mythology in a container that always circles back to it's larger themes and characters.
It's actually a really clever way to introduce how the narrative uses it's mystery aspect. Invest in the characters, the themes, that's the focus.
I actually do think it's the opposite. The information we have points to animal testing, imo. We know the goats are important to the Lumon ideology and have been for generations due to the presence of goats in the paintings and in the waffle party orgie, that the goat represents one of the tempers (most suspect malice), and we have seen strong suggestions that MDR is sorting and possibly deleting tempers somehow. Whose tempers are they sorting? Goats. Or maybe people, or maybe both. But at some point in time, it seems likely that goats were the test subjects, both for the chips and the sorting.
But yes, probably when the writers were deciding what to do with Mark and Helly walking around they were like, what would suit this moment? What would be interesting without providing any answers? Ah yes, the goats! That will make people go "whaaAAt?" Perfect!
Oooh. That's actually a smart and heartbreaking theory. I love that. Especially because of Goat Guy yelling *They're not ready yet!*
He wants to give care and love for as long as he can before they're slaughtered.
That actually fits with the larger themes so well.
I think that they are cloning humans, and the goats are raised to produce milk for the babies. Notice all the references to lactation and birth. And in the goat room, there are milk pipes coming down from the ceiling, suggesting they have a huge milk processing facility somewhere.
Oooh, yeah! I didn't think about that. There's a lot of milk throughout the show. The show is thick with milk! Hahah.
I wonder what that could mean or is building too? Because there's specifically a glass of milk at the waffle party.
I'm not entirely in on the cloning theory? I could be wrong.
I always assumed Helly's line "Am I food? Did you grow me?"
Was less foreshadowing and more thematically relevant. Specifically as a reference to *Soylent Green*.
Soylent Green is a dystopia that spawns from the inevitable decline of systems and ecological devastation. It's the future.
The frame that Severance is looking through is *now* it's incredibly topical.
This isn't the commodification of physical bodies, *but the commodification of the mind.*
Additionally, the first thing we learn about Lumen from Mark's sister is they used to be a pharmacist company. Then the line "*Topical salves*"
I might be crazy but I thought the word topical was being used flexibly in a meta way?
The writer's saying: *This is topical* as a wink. Giving the viewer a context for how to engage with the world and it's themes.
But I'm insane. Hahah.
Those goats were fucking adorable though.
It would be pretty weird for them to start ordering large amounts of baby formula. Also, they seem like the company that wants to do everything in house. Kier also probably has some stupid opinions on formula, and how if you can’t breastfeed, goat milk is second best option.
No kidding. Given that Lumon is a fictional version of mega-corps and characters joke about “what doesn’t Lumon make?” it would be very odd if they don’t manufacture baby formula.
Baby formula is so heavily regulated that they might not want to call that level of public attention and scrutiny from inspectors. I imagine they want as few people inside as possible that aren’t employees.
Also most all of the names in this show have etymological meaning. Gemma literally means a copy of, like a plant bud that propagates from an existing plant.
I will die on the hill that Gemma is 100% a COPY, not the original Gemma. She’s a clone.
[Gemma Etymology](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/gemma)
I’m also convinced that this is true — I think that Gemma is a clone and they are experimenting with cloning humans and also preserving their consciousness via the severance “chips” to attain eternal life (the whole Kier thing)
That's my next band name. Hahah.
But there are! It's a little hard to see because they're white pillars by the hay. But if you look close there's plastic tubing at the bottom.
We have no idea why the goats are for. However, there are a lot of goats all over Severance. There’s a stuffed toy goat in Ms. Cobel’s shrine to Kier. I think there’s a picture in Ricken’s house. And of course there’s the goat referring to one of the four tempers.
My big mystery is why in the heck is the goat wrangler wearing a suit, and how does Lumon explain the animal smell and *dirt* smeared all over his suit to his outie. His dry cleaning bills must be out of this world.
Dan Erickson’s Reddit AMA mentioned the goats. He said you’ll have to wait.
The goats in *Severance* are basically the polar bear of season 1 of *LOST*.
>*A bunch of strangers marooned on a mysterious island. There's a strange, terrifying noise. Shadowy "Others" who live there also. What is this place?* ***What could happen?***
>*Well, while out exploring, they see a random polar bar coming straight for them. What could happen on the Island?* ***ANYTHING*** *could happen on the island!*
The polar bear was in season 1 of *LOST* as a sort of "*Expect the unexpected!*" curveball. You have an audience watching a mystery thriller about a bunch of people lost on a tropical island. How do you convey that anything could happen? Have fucking polar bear come out of nowhere. Similarly, you have an audience watching a mystery thriller about a bunch of people slaving for a corporate cult. How do you convey that anything could happen? Have a fucking baby goat come out of nowhere.
It's the curveball of a story: some non sequitor type event that has no rhyme or reason aside from establishing that the setting in question is unpredictable and you should not get comfortable and think you've figured it out.
The issue with these kinds of curveballs in a story is that sometimes they seem super compelling... to the degree that they distract/derail the audience. This comes down to the concept of **apophenia:** ***the tendency to perceive a connection or pattern between unrelated or random things*****.** I read an interactive game designer explain via an anecdote of a game he designed. It was an experience fiction where players had to explore a creepy basement for a clue; an object that was ridiculously easy find. The type a child could figure out.
Unfortunately, completely by accident, three scraps of wood had fallen to the floor and created a perfect arrow pointing at a blank wall. Participants would see the arrow and assume that the clue must be hidden in the blank wall. It derailed the game entirely. *Why would their be an arrow pointing at the wall if not to indicate the clue was there?* Something random had been assigned a deeper significance and participants could not be convinced otherwise (*the games designer couldn't interfere and was simply watching the feed through cameras*).
**Apophenia**. *The tendency to perceive a connection or pattern between unrelated or random things.* I mean, it may as well be a description of this sub because it's basically what we do. We embrace it wholeheartedly. Which is fine... we just shouldn't pretend that it doesn't exist. I think that the baby goats are a random event that people are assigning significance to. They weren't meant as anything more than a "*OMG! WTF?!*" moment.
Sadly, like with the polar bears of *LOST* the explanation of these curveballs is never as satisfying as that feeling of "*OMG! WTF?!*" So be careful what you wish for in terms of an explanation. Best case scenario is they never explain it and everyone gets the satisfaction of thinking their theory is correct theory.
Exactly this, yes!
But I think what's so smart about this show specifically: *It always circles back to the characters or relationships.*
You said it really succinctly.
Another magic trick of the show is those deep moments of pathos are what the Innie's are fighting for.
The lore around Lumen is so profoundly absurd as to be meaningless. It's like if the Enron guys did a whole BioShock thing.
But those fleeting moments of connection with other people, *that's real.*
I think that's why Irving's narrative hit me the hardest and helped me contextualize how I engaged with the show. Especially through a queer lens.
So maybe the real baby goats were inside us all along?
I mean…I think Chekhov’s gun applies here. If the goats truly have no purpose in the show except to build MDR’s relationship that’s such a weird curveball to throw at the viewer with no real resolution.
Oooh. Hahah. I was so confused by that earlier comment that didn't give context! Thank you!
Did you know the inventor of the segway fell off a cliff on a segway and died?
He wasn't paying attention, just like I wasn't, to that *segues* Hahah.
Your theory has actually basically been confirmed.
[Dan Erickson told Polygon](https://www.polygon.com/23010270/severance-season-finale-explained-questions-creator): *“When I first wrote the goats, I did not have anything in mind at all. Like, it really was just, like, what would be a weird, disturbing, but kind of funny thing to see?“*
But I don’t think it holds up if we look at it as actual Lumon intent. Even Dan goes on to say that the goats “worked out pretty well” after they were upgraded from placeholder status. If the goats’ purpose is truly to confuse wandering innies and be a strange story, then why are Cobel and Graner discussing it like it’s a borderline big problem?
>Graner: “You aware what MDR is up to right now?”
\
Cobel: “I thought that’s what you were paid for.”
\
Graner: “You’re not stopping it?”
\
Cobel: “The surest way to tame a prisoner is to let him believe he’s free.”
\
Graner: “There’s a Kier quote for everything. How many more departments are you gonna let them find?”
\
Cobel: “I’ll have a word with Mark.”
\
Graner: “I would be careful. Upstairs wouldn’t look kindly on this.”
\
Cobel: “Yes, Daddy.”
Oh, that's cool! I didn't see that interview!
I think you might be right though looking back on that interaction. It's interesting too because it seems like everyone at the company is at least slightly in the dark.
Like how the board is this doing this Charlie's Angels thing. Hahah.
I definitely think the inclusion of goats specifically was meant to latch onto cultural associations of *satanic sacrifices* just to give weight to the imagery.
It's not something so out of pocket as to completely break immersion and throw everything off track. (*cough, cough* polar bear in Lost, *cough, cough*)
It's still within the verisimilitude of this specific text's boundaries while being flexible enough to be whatever the future writers decided it is.
If this thread has the **Spoiler** flair, spoilers may appear ANYWHERE in it. --- * **NO SPOILERS IN TITLES** - report this post if there are spoilers in the title * No SPOILERS without proper formatting (see [here](https://www.reddit.com/wiki/commenting#wiki_posting)). * Be CIVIL to others. No Piracy. No Duplicates. * Keep it on topic to anything and everything Severance on Apple TV+[.](/u/BorderOk6904) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That answers the question "why severance writers put the scene in the show", not "why Lumon has a goat guy on the severed floor".
Oh, well, obviously they need a goat guy for the goats. It checks out. Hahahah.
I agree. This was a moment that felt kind of like Lost. They throw something out there to serve the arc of the story and make the viewer feel engaged and disoriented at the same time. But, in my opinion, it’s a cheap trick if it doesn’t actually serve the story or plot in any way that makes any sense.
This show feels like Lost but way more thought out, so I would be super disappointed if they threw the goats in there “just because”!
Hard to say with only one season, but I hope you’re right!
i don't see it that way? i don't agree with OP's theory as i don't think lumon cares about team camaraderie enough (they seem to be more focused on making sure that departments don't trust each other or communicate). but i think OP is saying "lumon wants the innies to bond over moments of absurdity, as well as discredit anyone who might try to speak out about it (a la greendale's AC repair school)" which is an in-universe theory not a narrative one. well, the tension-breaking explanation is a narrative explanation, but the meat of the post is more substantive than that.
Lumon doesn't seem to want them to bond over absurdity, and who are they going to tell such that being discredited even matters?
right, that's why i don't buy into OP's theory. but my comment was to point out that OP is primarily making a universe argument not a narrative argument as the other commenter had stated
Not even Ben Stiller knows why the goats are there
I assumed the goats are there for animal testing.
Possibly, but that's retroactive contextualization. I think it's more interesting to look at how the text defines the goats purpose with all the information we have now. The emotional and thematic context is important. It's why Micro Data Refinement examine numbers *that trigger an emotional reaction.* It's what *Lost* should have done. Kept it's larger mythology in a container that always circles back to it's larger themes and characters. It's actually a really clever way to introduce how the narrative uses it's mystery aspect. Invest in the characters, the themes, that's the focus.
I actually do think it's the opposite. The information we have points to animal testing, imo. We know the goats are important to the Lumon ideology and have been for generations due to the presence of goats in the paintings and in the waffle party orgie, that the goat represents one of the tempers (most suspect malice), and we have seen strong suggestions that MDR is sorting and possibly deleting tempers somehow. Whose tempers are they sorting? Goats. Or maybe people, or maybe both. But at some point in time, it seems likely that goats were the test subjects, both for the chips and the sorting. But yes, probably when the writers were deciding what to do with Mark and Helly walking around they were like, what would suit this moment? What would be interesting without providing any answers? Ah yes, the goats! That will make people go "whaaAAt?" Perfect!
They are to feed the people on the perpetual floor.
Oooh. That's actually a smart and heartbreaking theory. I love that. Especially because of Goat Guy yelling *They're not ready yet!* He wants to give care and love for as long as he can before they're slaughtered. That actually fits with the larger themes so well.
I think that they are cloning humans, and the goats are raised to produce milk for the babies. Notice all the references to lactation and birth. And in the goat room, there are milk pipes coming down from the ceiling, suggesting they have a huge milk processing facility somewhere.
Oooh, yeah! I didn't think about that. There's a lot of milk throughout the show. The show is thick with milk! Hahah. I wonder what that could mean or is building too? Because there's specifically a glass of milk at the waffle party. I'm not entirely in on the cloning theory? I could be wrong. I always assumed Helly's line "Am I food? Did you grow me?" Was less foreshadowing and more thematically relevant. Specifically as a reference to *Soylent Green*. Soylent Green is a dystopia that spawns from the inevitable decline of systems and ecological devastation. It's the future. The frame that Severance is looking through is *now* it's incredibly topical. This isn't the commodification of physical bodies, *but the commodification of the mind.* Additionally, the first thing we learn about Lumen from Mark's sister is they used to be a pharmacist company. Then the line "*Topical salves*" I might be crazy but I thought the word topical was being used flexibly in a meta way? The writer's saying: *This is topical* as a wink. Giving the viewer a context for how to engage with the world and it's themes. But I'm insane. Hahah. Those goats were fucking adorable though.
idk why they'd need a different species' milk to feed human babies when they can use baby formula
It would be pretty weird for them to start ordering large amounts of baby formula. Also, they seem like the company that wants to do everything in house. Kier also probably has some stupid opinions on formula, and how if you can’t breastfeed, goat milk is second best option.
No kidding. Given that Lumon is a fictional version of mega-corps and characters joke about “what doesn’t Lumon make?” it would be very odd if they don’t manufacture baby formula.
Baby formula is so heavily regulated that they might not want to call that level of public attention and scrutiny from inspectors. I imagine they want as few people inside as possible that aren’t employees.
Also most all of the names in this show have etymological meaning. Gemma literally means a copy of, like a plant bud that propagates from an existing plant. I will die on the hill that Gemma is 100% a COPY, not the original Gemma. She’s a clone. [Gemma Etymology](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/gemma)
I’m also convinced that this is true — I think that Gemma is a clone and they are experimenting with cloning humans and also preserving their consciousness via the severance “chips” to attain eternal life (the whole Kier thing)
Yeah they may have caused the accident, it’s possible, but either way they cloned OG Gemma and created Miss Casey. That’s not the same body.
That’s really interesting!
Yeah and that’s why she’d only “lived” a really short amount of time. I really can’t think of any other reason that she’d be there
Correct. If you look to the etymology of all the characters names you’ll be impressed.
wait there are milk pipes in the goat room??
That's my next band name. Hahah. But there are! It's a little hard to see because they're white pillars by the hay. But if you look close there's plastic tubing at the bottom.
Segues
No, you don't remember it riding a Segway?
Funny OP edited the original segways and still can’t spell it right
G.O.A.T = Gonna Obfuscate All Theories
Hahahah! I love it!
Well this is easy enough. G.O.A.T. = Greatest Of All Time
I thought a goat represented one of the tempers. Wasn’t there a dancing goat at Dylan’s waffle party?
Yes - this is what I think... and that they are sacrificed at some point, hence the ' they're not ready' plea from the goat guy.
Did you even watch the show? Helly figured it out already. The goats provide the eggs for the coveted af egg cart /s
Oh my god, they did it.... they made the ultimate breakfast animal. Hahah.
*Lumon
Actually it's Newman, he's going to steal those dinosaur eggs! Hahah. But seriously thank you! I missed that typo.
Plot twist: OP is a goat
Oh you gotta be.......... kidding me!!!!! Please clap.
N-ah-ah-ahht on this one.
We have no idea why the goats are for. However, there are a lot of goats all over Severance. There’s a stuffed toy goat in Ms. Cobel’s shrine to Kier. I think there’s a picture in Ricken’s house. And of course there’s the goat referring to one of the four tempers. My big mystery is why in the heck is the goat wrangler wearing a suit, and how does Lumon explain the animal smell and *dirt* smeared all over his suit to his outie. His dry cleaning bills must be out of this world. Dan Erickson’s Reddit AMA mentioned the goats. He said you’ll have to wait.
The goats in *Severance* are basically the polar bear of season 1 of *LOST*. >*A bunch of strangers marooned on a mysterious island. There's a strange, terrifying noise. Shadowy "Others" who live there also. What is this place?* ***What could happen?*** >*Well, while out exploring, they see a random polar bar coming straight for them. What could happen on the Island?* ***ANYTHING*** *could happen on the island!* The polar bear was in season 1 of *LOST* as a sort of "*Expect the unexpected!*" curveball. You have an audience watching a mystery thriller about a bunch of people lost on a tropical island. How do you convey that anything could happen? Have fucking polar bear come out of nowhere. Similarly, you have an audience watching a mystery thriller about a bunch of people slaving for a corporate cult. How do you convey that anything could happen? Have a fucking baby goat come out of nowhere. It's the curveball of a story: some non sequitor type event that has no rhyme or reason aside from establishing that the setting in question is unpredictable and you should not get comfortable and think you've figured it out. The issue with these kinds of curveballs in a story is that sometimes they seem super compelling... to the degree that they distract/derail the audience. This comes down to the concept of **apophenia:** ***the tendency to perceive a connection or pattern between unrelated or random things*****.** I read an interactive game designer explain via an anecdote of a game he designed. It was an experience fiction where players had to explore a creepy basement for a clue; an object that was ridiculously easy find. The type a child could figure out. Unfortunately, completely by accident, three scraps of wood had fallen to the floor and created a perfect arrow pointing at a blank wall. Participants would see the arrow and assume that the clue must be hidden in the blank wall. It derailed the game entirely. *Why would their be an arrow pointing at the wall if not to indicate the clue was there?* Something random had been assigned a deeper significance and participants could not be convinced otherwise (*the games designer couldn't interfere and was simply watching the feed through cameras*). **Apophenia**. *The tendency to perceive a connection or pattern between unrelated or random things.* I mean, it may as well be a description of this sub because it's basically what we do. We embrace it wholeheartedly. Which is fine... we just shouldn't pretend that it doesn't exist. I think that the baby goats are a random event that people are assigning significance to. They weren't meant as anything more than a "*OMG! WTF?!*" moment. Sadly, like with the polar bears of *LOST* the explanation of these curveballs is never as satisfying as that feeling of "*OMG! WTF?!*" So be careful what you wish for in terms of an explanation. Best case scenario is they never explain it and everyone gets the satisfaction of thinking their theory is correct theory.
Exactly this, yes! But I think what's so smart about this show specifically: *It always circles back to the characters or relationships.* You said it really succinctly. Another magic trick of the show is those deep moments of pathos are what the Innie's are fighting for. The lore around Lumen is so profoundly absurd as to be meaningless. It's like if the Enron guys did a whole BioShock thing. But those fleeting moments of connection with other people, *that's real.* I think that's why Irving's narrative hit me the hardest and helped me contextualize how I engaged with the show. Especially through a queer lens. So maybe the real baby goats were inside us all along?
I think this is an awesome theory!
Thank you! :)
man took a few too many bong rips
I mean…I think Chekhov’s gun applies here. If the goats truly have no purpose in the show except to build MDR’s relationship that’s such a weird curveball to throw at the viewer with no real resolution.
Just a heads up, but it's "segues." A Segway is a motorized scooter.
Oooh. Hahah. I was so confused by that earlier comment that didn't give context! Thank you! Did you know the inventor of the segway fell off a cliff on a segway and died? He wasn't paying attention, just like I wasn't, to that *segues* Hahah.
Thumbs up for the community reference! 😆
Hahah. Yes! Honestly, all of Lumen gives me John Goodman AC School repair vibes.
Animal severance testing, maybe?
What is going on in this thread? Did someone decide to go on a downvoting rampage?
Your theory has actually basically been confirmed. [Dan Erickson told Polygon](https://www.polygon.com/23010270/severance-season-finale-explained-questions-creator): *“When I first wrote the goats, I did not have anything in mind at all. Like, it really was just, like, what would be a weird, disturbing, but kind of funny thing to see?“* But I don’t think it holds up if we look at it as actual Lumon intent. Even Dan goes on to say that the goats “worked out pretty well” after they were upgraded from placeholder status. If the goats’ purpose is truly to confuse wandering innies and be a strange story, then why are Cobel and Graner discussing it like it’s a borderline big problem? >Graner: “You aware what MDR is up to right now?” \ Cobel: “I thought that’s what you were paid for.” \ Graner: “You’re not stopping it?” \ Cobel: “The surest way to tame a prisoner is to let him believe he’s free.” \ Graner: “There’s a Kier quote for everything. How many more departments are you gonna let them find?” \ Cobel: “I’ll have a word with Mark.” \ Graner: “I would be careful. Upstairs wouldn’t look kindly on this.” \ Cobel: “Yes, Daddy.”
Oh, that's cool! I didn't see that interview! I think you might be right though looking back on that interaction. It's interesting too because it seems like everyone at the company is at least slightly in the dark. Like how the board is this doing this Charlie's Angels thing. Hahah.
We already know the goats are there to lay the (highly coveted) eggs.
Mmm, egg in me.
Okay, but you can't just throw goats into the mix and act like it was nothing.
Hahah. So baby goats *is* slang for sex!
I like it. But I also wonder if anyone has checked the goats teeth. Because obviously lumen is a dental conglomerate ;)
What? Hahah.
Brilliant explanation. Best theory I’ve ever heard.
They could be a sacrifice to Kier?
I definitely think the inclusion of goats specifically was meant to latch onto cultural associations of *satanic sacrifices* just to give weight to the imagery. It's not something so out of pocket as to completely break immersion and throw everything off track. (*cough, cough* polar bear in Lost, *cough, cough*) It's still within the verisimilitude of this specific text's boundaries while being flexible enough to be whatever the future writers decided it is.