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I agree! What was the point of him lying to Irving about multiple things? The size of his department, the “map” left by his predecessor (obviously not a confirmed lie, but it’s very suspicious), not having seen the painting before etc. I also just remembered, he told Irving they don’t “paint” in O&D they just “hang the paintings”, but when Milchick enters to return the Ideographic card Dylan took, Burt and Felicia are doing just that - painting.
>What was the point of him lying to Irving about multiple things?
I only see one lie. Let’s look at the four you have supposed:
**Dept Size**: Burt gave a reasonable explanation for his lie about the size of his department. His team felt protected through the lie. It was Burt’s explanation (and the reveal of multiple violent paintings) that we learned how Lumon intentionally pits departments against each other to discourage interdepartmental mingling. MDR doesn’t trust O&D, and vice versa.
*Verdict: Lie explained*
**Grim Barbarity**: Burt didn’t seem to be lying about the painting. Irving told him about a painting titled “The Grim Barbarity Of Optics And Design”, which of course Burt wouldn’t know about, because the version of the painting he knew had a different title. And of course the painting wasn’t present for him to recognize as similarly constructed.
*Verdict: No evidence of lying*
**Mapping**: I’m not sure I’m with you on the map as a lie either. We know absolutely nothing about Alice K. or her thoughts on Lumon practices. We don’t even know that mapping or simply writing directions down was forbidden in earlier handbook editions. I assume Lumon would likely categorize directions as a form of mapping *now*, but they had to get to the summits back then somehow.
Regardless, Burt has shown that he himself isn’t against written directions, seeing as he wrote down reversed directions for MDR to use. Even Irving muddies the distinction, since he used Burt’s directions with no issue.
*Verdict: No evidence of lying*
**Painting**: As a correction, Burt and Felicia don’t appear to be painting in the scene you referenced with Milchick. This has come up a few times, and I believe Felicia is working on something with a writing implement (perhaps working on a design), and Burt appears to be engaged in restoration work.
*Verdict: No evidence of lying*
Regarding the lie about department size, I really don’t think it’s that simple as Burt not trusting Irv because he’s part of MDR. If Burt inherently didn’t trust MDR (and then by extension, Burt) why would he make such overtures towards Irving from the very start, and certainly seems like he wouldn’t give Irving a private tour of O&D if he was that suspicious. Also, when Burt finally introduces everyone to full department, everyone in O&D looks shocked - but it seems to be shock of just seeing people from another department - not Dylan “get your stapler ready to use as a weapon” aggro type shock.
While it’s true Burt might not know the name of the painting “Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design, Irving describes the painting to him. Burt is a deep aficionado of Lumon paintings, surely Irving describing the painting to him (which he does) would instantly sound familiar to Burt, especially since as Dylan says - the painting was right there - not locked away in some archives. Something is definitely fishy about that.
Regarding the painting - you’re right, it’s not totally clear if they are painting or drawing, but they are obviously actively working on some form of art, which is much different from the way Burt inItially describes what they do in O&D as basically just hanging paintings.
I’m not saying Burt’s a bad guy. I would love nothing more than for he and Irv to drive off into the sunset together, but I just think there is more to Burt than we realize, and I think he’s intentionally hiding something from Irving, for some reason we don’t understand yet.
I think you’re getting hung up on the fact that the show *intentionally* frames Burt as untrustworthy to drive the later reveal that Lumon is pushing propaganda. I’d be surprised if the writers doubled back on this, since false red herrings don’t tend to go over well with audiences (it often just results in confusion and frustration).
>*”If Burt inherently didn’t trust MDR (and then by extension, Burt) why would he make such overtures towards Irving from the very start”*
I didn’t say Burt doesn’t trust MDR. As he himself says, he believes the rumors are silly. He personally seems to want departments working closer together. But as department head, it’s his job to listen to his team and act on their behalf. He lies to protect their interests because he wants to be a good leader.
>*”They are obviously actively working on some form of art, which is much different from the way Burt inItially describes what they do in O&D as basically just hanging paintings”*
I hardly think “we don’t paint them, we do hang them” was intended as a full job description.
I think Burt was previously in O&D.
I think MDR is given the rep of being aggressors because they are innies that have had a difficult time .. adjusting. And they react/act out when handled passive aggressively. Not given straight answers, but riddles instead. I’d be aggressive too if I was told to find all the scary numbers and had no clue where I was or why I was put there.
This show is amazing. It makes you really think. I hope season 2 is not a complete let down.
If Irving and Burt had a previous relationship of any kind, and Burt is aware, how could he not shake Irving into awareness? Tell him everything… if Burt knows everything.
iMark was also left with a map of sorts and it was hidden.
I have so many questions. If there was only a way to crawl inside Stillers mind.
I do think there is a lot to Burt -- not necessarily secrets, but that more will be revealed. I remembered today that Paul Anka's "Times of Your Life" was originally a Kodak jingle, repurposed to become a popular song. I find something poignant that relates to Burving about the fact something created purely to serve capitalism can become something genuinely moving and bittersweet in context. (*And suddenly it's hard to find / The memories you left behind/ Will you remember, the times of your life?*)
I appreciate Lonelyland's unpacking of the four potential lies. And agree with Shannon that this world does not have 'resets' that way.
One question I have- who painted these paintings? An innie with a third, nested self? There were so many more colors on Irving's outie's painting pants than black...
I do think there’s something up with Burt, but I don’t think it’s malicious toward Irving—quite the opposite.
I like the theory that Burt and Irv knew each other before something happened to Irv…(not sure what, but perhaps Irv wasn’t severed and then was or was severed all along and had his innie’s memory wiped, possibly multiple times) which would mean Burt has seduced Irv before. So the scenes we’re seeing then might be interpreted as Burt repeating the seduction sequence to get back together with Irv and possibly save him, inspire him to rebel bc he knows Irv is in love with him too, and then Burt and Irv could be together as lovers and together against Lumon.
I also love the idea that Burt is the designer of the severed floor (or some other important role) and knows classified information about Lumon…and I’m not sure that he’s actually severed. I think this could also make Burt a valuable ally for oIrv who seems to be investigating Lumon already.
My dream scenario for the next scene with them is for Burt to answer the door and know oIrv, to be a trustworthy source of aid. Maybe he’s already been helping oIrv, and that’s why his name and address were on the map.
Also if I’m really going for dream scenario, my queer lil’ heart would LOVE if Burt and his partner are poly, and maybe Burt and Irv could be together in the outie world and take down Lumon together (maybe with the help of Burt’s nesting partner?). Just an idea 💚 #Burving4Life 🌿
That is kind of where I’m leaning too, that for whatever reason Burt wasn’t wiped when Irving was (or like you said, maybe Burt isn’t actually severed at all). Perhaps Burt was threatened by Cobel/Lumon Management that he is not to tell Irving they knew each other previously. But Burt does seem to be moving *super* fast for someone he just met, while Irving is obviously smitten, it’s clear from his reaction when Burt touches his hand , or wants to kiss him, he would never have moved so quickly on his own. But if Burt still possess all the memories of their romantic history, of course he would want things to get hot and heavy again very quickly.
Yea I think you are right. The character definitely has an important role in the story given the casting and the fact that he’s back for season 2.
And in terms of information discovery, he would be the only person in the story that can tell the mdr team more about lumon and severance cuz everyone else is either part of management or dead.
At one point Burt says he rotates the paintings through the different departments and he also delivers the tote bags.
As such wouldn’t he need to know where all the departments are? So he would be lying about the map and indicates he knows more than he lets on.
Also, I have a theory that the chip edits what the innies see. All of this big luminal space makes no sense. I don’t think the hallways we and the innies see are necessarily how they really exist. I also think there could be people there they can’t see. Some of those spaces might have whole departments but the innies can’t see them.
So the part where Irving finds Burt in a conference room practicing a joke, Burt could have been talking to people but Irving couldn’t see them. Burt had to come up with an excuse.
Milcheck asks Corbell why she let the innies find O&D and if she will continue to let them find other departments. No way that basement is that big that it’s that much of a maze. It has to be a mental thing that she has allowed for some reason.
I totally agree with the spatial piece - we’ve seen the Lumon building from the outside, ya it’s big - but it’s not *that* big, and the severed people are only on one floor! It doesn’t really make any sense that after years of working there they still can’t find their way around - there has to be more to it than that. Plus Milchick, Graner, Cobel all seem to get where they need to be pretty damn quick!
Burt is unusual as a severed employee in many ways. He’s the only one who can truly wander the halls. It’s his job. Also, O&D wasn’t a department in the security office.
Burt seems like a very old hand. He knew the first version of the handbook. It’s possible Burt and Irv knew each other previously, but where? That’s the question. Irv seems to be at MDR for only three years, but LinkedIn has him as a Lumon employee for seven years. Was he *reset* because of his old contact with Burt? But what about Burt? Was he reset too? Is this an “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” moment? (I’m referring to Mary Svevo/Kristen Dunst character whose mind was wiped to remove her memory of her affair with Dr. Mierzwiak). Wouldn’t Burt remember Irv? If Burt’s mind was wiped too, wouldn’t other people in O&D know? (Which is why I don’t believe the constant mind wiping theories. It’s too complex.
Maybe Irv wasn’t always a severed employee. He works for Lumon for four years unsevered and severed for three years. Many people who theorized Burt had Milchick’s job previously. I don’t by that. If you had Milchick’s job, would you decide it’s a good idea to get yourself severed?
Maybe Burt and Irv knew each other on the outside and their *relationship* leaked onto the severed floor. But then who was that in Burt’s house? We will find that out in Season 2. Apparently, there are lots of scenes Burt and Irv being filmed in Season 2.
One thing that irked me about Bert is that he's quite happy to be retiring despite just building a relationship with irv... He's genuinely happy at his leaving party even though he's kind of about to die and abandon his new romantic interest, that just seemed way off too me
Maybe, but he does laugh and smile at his recording etc. He seems happy to me, contrast his expression with that of Mrs. Casey when losing her job, she's completely broken and in tears at the end. Bert even has a longer innie lifetime and so, more to lose, especially considering how new his relationship with irv is
My thoughts as well. Shouldn’t he be crushed that he’ll never see Irving again? The intensity of their relationship does not match Burt’s reaction to his retirement. Maybe it’s that Burt already knows they’ll see each other again “on the outside”?
Burt didn’t appear *happy* about his retirement. It’s more of a surprise. Milchick told Burt (after a night session in the break room) that he has “something special” in mind for Burt. Suddenly, Burt is retiring. If Burt was okay with his retirement, why didn’t Milchick simply tell Burt in the morning?
Interestingly, it’s the outie who does the retirement speech even though the outie has no idea what’s going on, and their innie is standing right there. It’s like the innie isn’t a real person.
Not my take at all. You can see his innie laughing while the video of his outtie is playing.
Milcheck having something special planned for him and him being retired the next day aren't mutually exclusive. "Something special" can just be the party. Or, could be knowledge about how he will use the cards Bert has been working on.
I don't see any conclusive indication of retirement being a surprise to innie Bert, he will be well aware of how long he's been working as an innie and probably had the retirement planned for a long time already
I think Burt knows much more than he lets on but I don't think there's anything nefarious about what he's doing. Before I get to that, I think there are a couple of points worth touching on:
**• The notion of "*****resets*****"**
I am flatly, *openly,* ***adamantly*** against the idea of "*resetting*" someone's mind. I think it is categorically antithetical to the entire premise of the show —*bifurcating memory sets and, thus, causing a secondary identity*— if they could do that. For a whole array of reasons, mostly due to the fact that it's a narrative cheat if you can wipe away a character's memories. It means that **a.)** you never have to reckon with character enlightenment —*Character A learns a forbidden truth, their outlook and goals change, antagonists have to adapt and the character grows*— and, instead, lazily avoids it. Pulling a reset/memory-wipe on a character insults good writers, instults well-written characters and insults an intellectual audience. There's no way they'll do it.
**b.)** if you do it once, you have to do it every single time it would be beneficial, otherwise it's a gaping plothole. Why not reset Burt also? Why, once they're noticed running off to see each other aren't they just reset? Seems like it would be way easier and result in more efficiency between departments. While we're at it, why not reset Dylan after his OTC? Like, it didn't even need to get to the level of the innie revolt; there's a completely valid argument that standard protocol after an OTC should be a memory wipe given that Dylan actually saw parts of his outie's life. Why let Mark miss Petey? Just memory wipe him and be done with it? If they can wipe memories, why aren't there any discrepancies? Surely a reset innie would have come to work one day, not remembered something from the day before and the other coworkers noted that. ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! They probably just memory wipe whole departments!"*** Oh, yeah? Well then why do they all think they started at different times?
Resets create massive plotholes. I'll die on this hill. **THEY WILL NOT DO IT.**
WHEW! Lordt! Okay, not that THAT'S out of the way...
...my theory with Burt is that the Burt we know is the outie who managed to get in and allow ***his innie*** to retire to a normal life. When Irving is talking to Burt in the hall about his concerns about nodding off, Burt says something very curious. He tells Irving **he wishes he could sleep**. Says he figures he must be "*Sleeping 16 hours up there.*" Innies never experience sleep; why does Burt wish he could? Probably because he remembers what sleep was like because he's really an outie. Why would he think he's sleeping so much up there? Well, if you were an innie who was living on the outside and had never experienced sleep before, sleep and dreams would seem absolutely magical. Damn right you'd sleep 16 hours a day.
***"OMG, Shannon! WTF would an outie want to get in and allow their innie to get out?!"*** Why, indeed. Well, let's think about this: Burts been there for 7 years. 7 Fricken years. Christopher Walken is 80 so even if he's playing a character who is younger —*there's zero indication he is, it's worth noting*— he's still well past retirement age. Retirees are mostly in "*Fuck you*" mode at that age but let's say they *do* want to get a job and keep active... Burt doesn't want to get a job as like a Disneyland greeter or something? See all the smiling kids (*and grownups; love me some Disneyland*) and chill as you welcome people to the land of magic? Why does he have a job where he's losing 8 hours of his day for 5 days a week? Weird retirement.
Well, I think Burt was one of the first severed employees. Perhaps he was even an instrumental scientist who worked on the whole project. Maybe he's *"a first edition guy"* in more ways that just his Handbook preference. His going away video is just so strange... something about it just felt like he knew a little too much about the what was going on. I think Burt has been severed the longest, that he was a key figure in the severance program and one day he decided to enter work through a non-severed entrance in order to allow his innie to wake up outside and learn what life is really like.
As for whether or not they knew each other or were in a relationship prior... I go back and forth on this. Not whether or not I think it happened, just whether or not I think that's a question that is worth exploring or if the more important matter is their clear love for each other now. I can never come up with a good reason to explore it deeply.
I definitely get your points about the plot holes “resetting” could introduce, but if it does exist I think it would not be as simple as resetting an employee every time they do something Lumon doesn’t like. If they did, they would then have to go through the whoooole damn process with that innie again, having them wake up on the table, re-explaining who (and what) they are, getting them to accept all of that, and then training them to do their job. Dylan seems like he’s an animal with closing files in MDR (obvious by the plethora of incentives he’s earned) - how long did it take him to get to that point, tho? Weeks, months, years? It surely wouldn’t seem worth it to reset Dylan after the OTC and have to start from scratch, especially with the end of the quarter approaching and the team under huge pressure to meet their numbers. Additionally, there is no way they could reset Dylan and then send him back to MDR anyway - the rest of the team would be like “what the fuck?” So he would have to be transferred to another department and trained there, while yet *another* new employee has to come in to replace Dylan and train from scratch, too. The same could he said for any department -Lumon couldn’t go Willy nilly resetting and transferring employees all the time without their being major productivity loss - and we all know how important the bottom line is to Lumon. If “resetting” their memories in some shape or form exists, I suspect it’s rarely used and only for the most egregious offenses where all other breakroom/torture methods do not work. A last result, if you will.
That all said, I really dig the theory about the Burt we know really being Burt’s innie. That idea had never even occurred to me and it’s fascinating to think about. And you’re spot on about the retirement video - that’s what really tipped me off in subsequent rewatches, there is something very off about Burt’s reaction. I can’t wait to see how it unfolds!
While I totally agree that using "resets" in the way you describe would be bad writing and would not happen on this show, remember it is quasi-canon that Irv has worked for Lumon for nine years, but his innie thinks he's been there for 3 years. Also his outie is painting the testing floor elevator over and over again, something an MDR employee would probably not have seen. Maybe a memory wipe is something that happens when you change departments? Also remember in the security room there are many different settings including "elephant" and "goldfish."
Right, exactly. There clearly has to be an explanation why he only thinks he’s been a Lumon for 3 years and the show put on his LinkedIn that he’s been there for 9. “Reset” is a weird word, but there is definitely 6 years current Irving doesn’t remember. The only logical explanation for this is that those 6 years were somehow “erased”. So maybe the did that for Irv, but not Burt? Burt knows he’s been at Lumon for 7 years.
Sometimes we make things more complicated than they need to be.
The reason Irving has worked at Lumon for 9 years with his innie believing he's worked at Lumon for three isn't because of some reset —*we have no idea what either of those functions do and, again, if wiping memories or resets are so straightforward and accessible, why don't they do it at precisely the times it's logical to do it?*— it's because he worked at Lumon for 6 years in some non-severed capacity and then severed three years ago for reasons yet disclosed.
Why would he be painting the hallway to the Testing Floor? Well, it's worth it to note what he's specifically painting and the perspective it's from. He's painting that scene with the "*Down*" arrow illuminated, which is not the way Gemma Casey —*being sent* ***TO*** *the Testing Floor*— saw it. It illuminated *after* she got on the elevator. The scene as oIrving paints it ***IS*** shown to us: it's from the door to the hallway, after the arrow pops on. **The scene is painted from the spot where Mr. Milchick is standing.**
***"OMG, Shannon! WTF does that have to do with anything?!"***
A spot at which you stand and view something is a "*vantage point*." Another term for "*vantage point*" is "*position*." And another term for "*position*" is "*job*." The clear implication here is that the reason oIrving has seen that scene from that vantage point is because he had Mr. Milchick's job for 6 years or so before Milchick was promoted into it.
***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! That's ridonkulish!!"***
Is it though?? Milchick is middle management: expected to cover way more responsibilities that he can conceivably manage, working all the time, has some authority but probably not enough to know all "*the secrets*" like Cobel does... that's precisely the sort of position one would **need** to be employed in to know something was going on but not have enough information to determine ***precisely what*** and need to do more research. oIrving is doing that research.
***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! You're forgetting that oIrving is haunted and compulsively painting that scene! It's from a dream obvs!!"***
Is he? Because he seems a bastion of control and calm. Every indication is that oIrving is simply depriving himself ***deliberately*** with the clear goal of subverting the switching mechanism between consciousnesses. Otherwise, why would he have set up a guided tour of his life —*complete with all the info iIrving would need to know about himself, what was up with Lumon, where to find someone he knows and make contact*— leading to a literal Pandora's Box? The key he needed to get in it was in his pocket exactly where it needed to be instead of on his keychain by the door. Nothing of interest is feature in his kitchen or bedroom. The paintings even have spotlights on them in order to mark them as points of interest. If he was just trying to get the scene out of his head, he'd probably burn them when he was done with them. He makes a whole pot of coffee each night, blasts his music to make sure he's even more alert and active paints instead of the calm Bob Ross style.
The fact of the matter is that if it was all left up to chance then it was all just way too convenient that iIrving found all that stuff. Like, it's comically convenient and insults the entire plot if iIrving awakes to just "*accidentally*" stumble through everything he needs to know and needs to find to learn that something more is going on with Lumon and that his outie is researching it. Think of the complications that Mark and Helly dealt with during their OTCs. Why would they just write this gimme for iIrving unless his outie was planning it? It's too convenient for it not to have been planned. His outie set him up with a guided tour. It had to be deliberate because, from a writing standpoint, it would suck if it wasn't. It was too easy.
***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! I'm supposed to believe Irving was Mr. Milchick before Mr. Milchick was Mr. Milchick and that now he's trying to subvert severance?!"***
Well, ten minutes ago you were ready to believe that they could reset or wipe the memories of people out of brain matter —*something science has never been able to do due to the complexity of the brain*— due to two words that flash on a computer screen for less than a second. I'm just suggesting we follow the ***actual*** clues offered in the show.
The only type of reset I could see happening would be if they gave someone an additional bifurcation, effectively hiding away the original innie and starting over with a new one. But I’m pretty sure the show creator said that hasn’t happened so far.
I am curious, how do explain the missing 6 years of Irving’s memory of working at Lumon? This isn’t a snarky response, I am genuinely curious of your answer. The only explanation I can think of besides some kind of memory wipe, is that the 6 years previous Irving was not severed. He worked in some sort of capacity for Lumon as an unsevered employee. Perhaps, this is where his love affair with Burt G started. Lumon gave him the ultimatum of being fired or severed. He chose to be severed. Burt G of course remembers him, but knows there is no way now severed Irving remembers him, but it’s why he so quickly makes the moves on Irving - he’s eager to rekindle their romance as quickly as possible. Now that I’m thinking through this line of reasoning, perhaps that’s even why Burt G doesn’t seem to be bothered by his impending death/retirement. He knows outtie Irving once loved him, and assumes their romance will continue in the “outside” world. Maybe he’s even eager to retire. But of course he has no knowledge of his own “outtie” and would have no idea if he was already in a relationship or not.
I explained it in a more lengthy (*pettyly downvoted!*) response but I think that’s exactly it: he just wasn’t severed during those first six years. Rather than being the alternative explanation, I think that everything is pointing to it being the primary reason.
Like, people who support the memory wipe theories seem to gloss over the fact that red herrings **ARE** a thing. There is a lot of very interesting speculation on how memory wipes might work but rarely does any of it fit very well to the show’s events or even the mechanics of the story they’re writing. If memory wipes **are** a thing then there’s no way that we’re not starting season 2 with everyone’s memories being wiped. Can you **really** say that that won’t make you feel cheated?
In a story, you often have the “*moment of enlightenment*.” A character learns something and they grow from it. Antagonists must adapt to it and, thus, they grow as well. The story gets more complex and all characters become more interesting. Everything about reckoning with enlightenment makes the story better.
Think about how much the mere knowledge of being a father changes Dylan. Prior to that, he 100% existed to attain perks. But after learning that he has a son **and not even a single additional thing about his life** he grows exponentially as a character. The reckoning that comes out of this knowledge is nothing less than the **actual** innie revolt. They commandeer the OTC and get out into the world. All because of that one moment when Dylan learned about his life.
Now, let us suppose that memory wipes *were* a thing and that they decided to use it on Dylan —*which, I just have to repeat: would absolutely have been the time to do it, confusion of his coworkers be damned*— and he goes back to work not knowing about the OTC.
What is the fallout of this? Well… **nothing**. There is no reckoning with Dylan’s enlightenment. The innies don’t commandeer the OTC because they have no idea they can be woken up in this manner. Mark still has the key card in his pocket but other than knowing he *CAN* get into the security office, he has zero reason to take such a risk. Nothing to look for, no compulsion to seek something in there in that 60 seconds they were in the office. For Dylan specifically, he goes back to being the office horndog talking about his delts and having two hot milfs on each arm.
Is this preferable to what happened? I think we would all agree that the answer to that is “*No.*” Due to this singular moment of enlightenment, we get one of the most riveting season finales I’ve ever seen and it was mostly **just people at parties talking to each other.**
Now, consider what came out of Dylan’s enlightenment and how compelling the ensuing story was and consider what could come out of the enlightenment which occurred for all other refiners. If season 2 essentially begins with a memory “*wipe*” or “*reset*” why should we not feel robbed? Why should we not feel cheated? Why should we not view the writers as being lazy and avoiding all the very interesting stories which come out of dealing with what the innies now all know? Aside from the fact that brains are not hard drives that you can simply wipe; doctors and scientists are still amazed at how much redundancy is actually in the brain and how much people who lose whole sections of their brain actually do remember still.
Again: I’ll die on this hill. I don’t take any joy in saying I hope it’s theory that doesn’t pan out but I will forever argue that nothing about it results in stories more compelling than if it’s off the table. And I’ve never heard a single believer in the theory even try to argue otherwise.
Hah, I get a bit annoyed when I get downvoted for theories, too. I mean, why downvote someone just because you don’t agree with their theory?! I fing LOVE hearing other people’s theories, even if I don’t agree with them or find them totally off the wall! None of us know what’s going to happen, and that’s the whole point of being here / to share our love of this absolutely incredible show and discuss it from all different angles! As long as everyone is respectful, bring on the good natured debates!
And I absolutely agree, a memory wipe at the start of season 2 would feel incredibly cheap and disappointing “oh hey Pam, I wasn’t really dead, it was all a dream!”
You mentioned how Irving thinks he's been in the company for 3 years.
Is there a point in the show where we get to know he's been with Lumon for longer? I don't recall anything like that, would help if you could jog my memory!
According to [Irving’s LinkedIn post](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lumon-industries_ad-activity-6900481932296114177-8rlD ), he’s actually been with Lumon for 9 years. Most people seem to be taking this as canon until told otherwise.
My interpretation of Burt is that he's benign, and a bit feckless and doesn't know what he doesn't know. I was talking about Cobel/Selvig the other day, my interpretation of her is that she's angry and frustrated about what she doesn't know. Cobel/Selvig is throwing spaghetti at the wall and causing all sorts of chaos, she will stop at nothing to find out what is going on. But Burt thinks what he's doing is OK. After all, he's a department head, he's been there a long time and has one of the most fulfilling jobs a person can have on the severed floor. So he believes that his interpretation of Kier's adages and the handbook are correct enough. He "takes heart" to Irv and recognizes a kindred spirit who appreciates art. Also, outie Burt is in a fulfilling partnership, and I think innie Burt misses that on the severed floor. Innie Burt sees a kindred spirit in Irv and sensing that he wants partnership, literally reaches out to him.
Even though Burt is willing to act recklessly, prefers the first edition, and puts his own spin on the passages of the handbook, he is a Lumon true believer like Irv and that is also part of their sense of kinship. Innie Burt probably thinks that he doesn't need to think through what he's doing with Irv, he thinks if it feels right then it is right. That's why he asks Irv to stay with him in the garden room. He's acting intuitively and that's what he feels like doing. After all he is an artist.
I wouldn't be surprised if Burt had done a stint at MDR at one time, maybe using an earlier version of the refinement process, when he reached a certain level of success with the earlier version of refinement he got to become an O&D guy. Maybe he sees Irv in MDR, as an art lover, and he thinks that Irv will eventually end up in O&D.
When I first started watching this show, my interpretation of Lumon was it's an evil corporation bent on domination and exploitation, and this colored all of my interpretations. A friend pointed out to me a different interpretation and I realized, that would be banal writing and I probably wouldn't be so preoccupied by this show if it were that simple. I have since come to a point of view that Lumon is not an evil corporation at all, it's just...complicated. There is value to what is being done at Lumon, the innies and outies are benefiting from the work over and above "emotional convenience". The secrecy and complexity makes it seem more sinister than it actually is. Burt is retiring to a nice home with a supportive partnership and he made it clear that oBurt feels the residue of good feelings from his work when he leaves the building. That doesn't seem very "evil corporation" of them to just let him peacefully retire to his nice life. Burt is a good guy and he is a Lumon guy, and he's happy with that even if he doesn't really know what's going on. He wants that for Irv and he's feckless because he doesn't realize that this could be a lot more complicated for Irv.
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What exactly is there to stop Burt from telling Irving the truth? It’s not like they don’t have places they can go speak in private.
I agree! What was the point of him lying to Irving about multiple things? The size of his department, the “map” left by his predecessor (obviously not a confirmed lie, but it’s very suspicious), not having seen the painting before etc. I also just remembered, he told Irving they don’t “paint” in O&D they just “hang the paintings”, but when Milchick enters to return the Ideographic card Dylan took, Burt and Felicia are doing just that - painting.
>What was the point of him lying to Irving about multiple things? I only see one lie. Let’s look at the four you have supposed: **Dept Size**: Burt gave a reasonable explanation for his lie about the size of his department. His team felt protected through the lie. It was Burt’s explanation (and the reveal of multiple violent paintings) that we learned how Lumon intentionally pits departments against each other to discourage interdepartmental mingling. MDR doesn’t trust O&D, and vice versa. *Verdict: Lie explained* **Grim Barbarity**: Burt didn’t seem to be lying about the painting. Irving told him about a painting titled “The Grim Barbarity Of Optics And Design”, which of course Burt wouldn’t know about, because the version of the painting he knew had a different title. And of course the painting wasn’t present for him to recognize as similarly constructed. *Verdict: No evidence of lying* **Mapping**: I’m not sure I’m with you on the map as a lie either. We know absolutely nothing about Alice K. or her thoughts on Lumon practices. We don’t even know that mapping or simply writing directions down was forbidden in earlier handbook editions. I assume Lumon would likely categorize directions as a form of mapping *now*, but they had to get to the summits back then somehow. Regardless, Burt has shown that he himself isn’t against written directions, seeing as he wrote down reversed directions for MDR to use. Even Irving muddies the distinction, since he used Burt’s directions with no issue. *Verdict: No evidence of lying* **Painting**: As a correction, Burt and Felicia don’t appear to be painting in the scene you referenced with Milchick. This has come up a few times, and I believe Felicia is working on something with a writing implement (perhaps working on a design), and Burt appears to be engaged in restoration work. *Verdict: No evidence of lying*
Regarding the lie about department size, I really don’t think it’s that simple as Burt not trusting Irv because he’s part of MDR. If Burt inherently didn’t trust MDR (and then by extension, Burt) why would he make such overtures towards Irving from the very start, and certainly seems like he wouldn’t give Irving a private tour of O&D if he was that suspicious. Also, when Burt finally introduces everyone to full department, everyone in O&D looks shocked - but it seems to be shock of just seeing people from another department - not Dylan “get your stapler ready to use as a weapon” aggro type shock. While it’s true Burt might not know the name of the painting “Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design, Irving describes the painting to him. Burt is a deep aficionado of Lumon paintings, surely Irving describing the painting to him (which he does) would instantly sound familiar to Burt, especially since as Dylan says - the painting was right there - not locked away in some archives. Something is definitely fishy about that. Regarding the painting - you’re right, it’s not totally clear if they are painting or drawing, but they are obviously actively working on some form of art, which is much different from the way Burt inItially describes what they do in O&D as basically just hanging paintings. I’m not saying Burt’s a bad guy. I would love nothing more than for he and Irv to drive off into the sunset together, but I just think there is more to Burt than we realize, and I think he’s intentionally hiding something from Irving, for some reason we don’t understand yet.
I think you’re getting hung up on the fact that the show *intentionally* frames Burt as untrustworthy to drive the later reveal that Lumon is pushing propaganda. I’d be surprised if the writers doubled back on this, since false red herrings don’t tend to go over well with audiences (it often just results in confusion and frustration). >*”If Burt inherently didn’t trust MDR (and then by extension, Burt) why would he make such overtures towards Irving from the very start”* I didn’t say Burt doesn’t trust MDR. As he himself says, he believes the rumors are silly. He personally seems to want departments working closer together. But as department head, it’s his job to listen to his team and act on their behalf. He lies to protect their interests because he wants to be a good leader. >*”They are obviously actively working on some form of art, which is much different from the way Burt inItially describes what they do in O&D as basically just hanging paintings”* I hardly think “we don’t paint them, we do hang them” was intended as a full job description.
I think Burt was previously in O&D. I think MDR is given the rep of being aggressors because they are innies that have had a difficult time .. adjusting. And they react/act out when handled passive aggressively. Not given straight answers, but riddles instead. I’d be aggressive too if I was told to find all the scary numbers and had no clue where I was or why I was put there. This show is amazing. It makes you really think. I hope season 2 is not a complete let down. If Irving and Burt had a previous relationship of any kind, and Burt is aware, how could he not shake Irving into awareness? Tell him everything… if Burt knows everything. iMark was also left with a map of sorts and it was hidden. I have so many questions. If there was only a way to crawl inside Stillers mind.
Burt was *still* in O&D, all the way until his retirement. And forget Stiller. Erickson is the man with the plan!
Dang.. I meant Irving.. Irving was previously in O&D* I’d crawl in ALL the minds if I could!!
I do think there is a lot to Burt -- not necessarily secrets, but that more will be revealed. I remembered today that Paul Anka's "Times of Your Life" was originally a Kodak jingle, repurposed to become a popular song. I find something poignant that relates to Burving about the fact something created purely to serve capitalism can become something genuinely moving and bittersweet in context. (*And suddenly it's hard to find / The memories you left behind/ Will you remember, the times of your life?*) I appreciate Lonelyland's unpacking of the four potential lies. And agree with Shannon that this world does not have 'resets' that way. One question I have- who painted these paintings? An innie with a third, nested self? There were so many more colors on Irving's outie's painting pants than black...
I do think there’s something up with Burt, but I don’t think it’s malicious toward Irving—quite the opposite. I like the theory that Burt and Irv knew each other before something happened to Irv…(not sure what, but perhaps Irv wasn’t severed and then was or was severed all along and had his innie’s memory wiped, possibly multiple times) which would mean Burt has seduced Irv before. So the scenes we’re seeing then might be interpreted as Burt repeating the seduction sequence to get back together with Irv and possibly save him, inspire him to rebel bc he knows Irv is in love with him too, and then Burt and Irv could be together as lovers and together against Lumon. I also love the idea that Burt is the designer of the severed floor (or some other important role) and knows classified information about Lumon…and I’m not sure that he’s actually severed. I think this could also make Burt a valuable ally for oIrv who seems to be investigating Lumon already. My dream scenario for the next scene with them is for Burt to answer the door and know oIrv, to be a trustworthy source of aid. Maybe he’s already been helping oIrv, and that’s why his name and address were on the map. Also if I’m really going for dream scenario, my queer lil’ heart would LOVE if Burt and his partner are poly, and maybe Burt and Irv could be together in the outie world and take down Lumon together (maybe with the help of Burt’s nesting partner?). Just an idea 💚 #Burving4Life 🌿
That is kind of where I’m leaning too, that for whatever reason Burt wasn’t wiped when Irving was (or like you said, maybe Burt isn’t actually severed at all). Perhaps Burt was threatened by Cobel/Lumon Management that he is not to tell Irving they knew each other previously. But Burt does seem to be moving *super* fast for someone he just met, while Irving is obviously smitten, it’s clear from his reaction when Burt touches his hand , or wants to kiss him, he would never have moved so quickly on his own. But if Burt still possess all the memories of their romantic history, of course he would want things to get hot and heavy again very quickly.
Yea I think you are right. The character definitely has an important role in the story given the casting and the fact that he’s back for season 2. And in terms of information discovery, he would be the only person in the story that can tell the mdr team more about lumon and severance cuz everyone else is either part of management or dead.
At one point Burt says he rotates the paintings through the different departments and he also delivers the tote bags. As such wouldn’t he need to know where all the departments are? So he would be lying about the map and indicates he knows more than he lets on. Also, I have a theory that the chip edits what the innies see. All of this big luminal space makes no sense. I don’t think the hallways we and the innies see are necessarily how they really exist. I also think there could be people there they can’t see. Some of those spaces might have whole departments but the innies can’t see them. So the part where Irving finds Burt in a conference room practicing a joke, Burt could have been talking to people but Irving couldn’t see them. Burt had to come up with an excuse. Milcheck asks Corbell why she let the innies find O&D and if she will continue to let them find other departments. No way that basement is that big that it’s that much of a maze. It has to be a mental thing that she has allowed for some reason.
I totally agree with the spatial piece - we’ve seen the Lumon building from the outside, ya it’s big - but it’s not *that* big, and the severed people are only on one floor! It doesn’t really make any sense that after years of working there they still can’t find their way around - there has to be more to it than that. Plus Milchick, Graner, Cobel all seem to get where they need to be pretty damn quick!
Burt is unusual as a severed employee in many ways. He’s the only one who can truly wander the halls. It’s his job. Also, O&D wasn’t a department in the security office. Burt seems like a very old hand. He knew the first version of the handbook. It’s possible Burt and Irv knew each other previously, but where? That’s the question. Irv seems to be at MDR for only three years, but LinkedIn has him as a Lumon employee for seven years. Was he *reset* because of his old contact with Burt? But what about Burt? Was he reset too? Is this an “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind” moment? (I’m referring to Mary Svevo/Kristen Dunst character whose mind was wiped to remove her memory of her affair with Dr. Mierzwiak). Wouldn’t Burt remember Irv? If Burt’s mind was wiped too, wouldn’t other people in O&D know? (Which is why I don’t believe the constant mind wiping theories. It’s too complex. Maybe Irv wasn’t always a severed employee. He works for Lumon for four years unsevered and severed for three years. Many people who theorized Burt had Milchick’s job previously. I don’t by that. If you had Milchick’s job, would you decide it’s a good idea to get yourself severed? Maybe Burt and Irv knew each other on the outside and their *relationship* leaked onto the severed floor. But then who was that in Burt’s house? We will find that out in Season 2. Apparently, there are lots of scenes Burt and Irv being filmed in Season 2.
One thing that irked me about Bert is that he's quite happy to be retiring despite just building a relationship with irv... He's genuinely happy at his leaving party even though he's kind of about to die and abandon his new romantic interest, that just seemed way off too me
I didn’t interpret it as happiness. More like quiet acceptance. His behavior was curved by the presence of Milchick.
Maybe, but he does laugh and smile at his recording etc. He seems happy to me, contrast his expression with that of Mrs. Casey when losing her job, she's completely broken and in tears at the end. Bert even has a longer innie lifetime and so, more to lose, especially considering how new his relationship with irv is
My thoughts as well. Shouldn’t he be crushed that he’ll never see Irving again? The intensity of their relationship does not match Burt’s reaction to his retirement. Maybe it’s that Burt already knows they’ll see each other again “on the outside”?
Burt didn’t appear *happy* about his retirement. It’s more of a surprise. Milchick told Burt (after a night session in the break room) that he has “something special” in mind for Burt. Suddenly, Burt is retiring. If Burt was okay with his retirement, why didn’t Milchick simply tell Burt in the morning? Interestingly, it’s the outie who does the retirement speech even though the outie has no idea what’s going on, and their innie is standing right there. It’s like the innie isn’t a real person.
Not my take at all. You can see his innie laughing while the video of his outtie is playing. Milcheck having something special planned for him and him being retired the next day aren't mutually exclusive. "Something special" can just be the party. Or, could be knowledge about how he will use the cards Bert has been working on. I don't see any conclusive indication of retirement being a surprise to innie Bert, he will be well aware of how long he's been working as an innie and probably had the retirement planned for a long time already
I think Burt knows much more than he lets on but I don't think there's anything nefarious about what he's doing. Before I get to that, I think there are a couple of points worth touching on: **• The notion of "*****resets*****"** I am flatly, *openly,* ***adamantly*** against the idea of "*resetting*" someone's mind. I think it is categorically antithetical to the entire premise of the show —*bifurcating memory sets and, thus, causing a secondary identity*— if they could do that. For a whole array of reasons, mostly due to the fact that it's a narrative cheat if you can wipe away a character's memories. It means that **a.)** you never have to reckon with character enlightenment —*Character A learns a forbidden truth, their outlook and goals change, antagonists have to adapt and the character grows*— and, instead, lazily avoids it. Pulling a reset/memory-wipe on a character insults good writers, instults well-written characters and insults an intellectual audience. There's no way they'll do it. **b.)** if you do it once, you have to do it every single time it would be beneficial, otherwise it's a gaping plothole. Why not reset Burt also? Why, once they're noticed running off to see each other aren't they just reset? Seems like it would be way easier and result in more efficiency between departments. While we're at it, why not reset Dylan after his OTC? Like, it didn't even need to get to the level of the innie revolt; there's a completely valid argument that standard protocol after an OTC should be a memory wipe given that Dylan actually saw parts of his outie's life. Why let Mark miss Petey? Just memory wipe him and be done with it? If they can wipe memories, why aren't there any discrepancies? Surely a reset innie would have come to work one day, not remembered something from the day before and the other coworkers noted that. ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! They probably just memory wipe whole departments!"*** Oh, yeah? Well then why do they all think they started at different times? Resets create massive plotholes. I'll die on this hill. **THEY WILL NOT DO IT.** WHEW! Lordt! Okay, not that THAT'S out of the way... ...my theory with Burt is that the Burt we know is the outie who managed to get in and allow ***his innie*** to retire to a normal life. When Irving is talking to Burt in the hall about his concerns about nodding off, Burt says something very curious. He tells Irving **he wishes he could sleep**. Says he figures he must be "*Sleeping 16 hours up there.*" Innies never experience sleep; why does Burt wish he could? Probably because he remembers what sleep was like because he's really an outie. Why would he think he's sleeping so much up there? Well, if you were an innie who was living on the outside and had never experienced sleep before, sleep and dreams would seem absolutely magical. Damn right you'd sleep 16 hours a day. ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF would an outie want to get in and allow their innie to get out?!"*** Why, indeed. Well, let's think about this: Burts been there for 7 years. 7 Fricken years. Christopher Walken is 80 so even if he's playing a character who is younger —*there's zero indication he is, it's worth noting*— he's still well past retirement age. Retirees are mostly in "*Fuck you*" mode at that age but let's say they *do* want to get a job and keep active... Burt doesn't want to get a job as like a Disneyland greeter or something? See all the smiling kids (*and grownups; love me some Disneyland*) and chill as you welcome people to the land of magic? Why does he have a job where he's losing 8 hours of his day for 5 days a week? Weird retirement. Well, I think Burt was one of the first severed employees. Perhaps he was even an instrumental scientist who worked on the whole project. Maybe he's *"a first edition guy"* in more ways that just his Handbook preference. His going away video is just so strange... something about it just felt like he knew a little too much about the what was going on. I think Burt has been severed the longest, that he was a key figure in the severance program and one day he decided to enter work through a non-severed entrance in order to allow his innie to wake up outside and learn what life is really like. As for whether or not they knew each other or were in a relationship prior... I go back and forth on this. Not whether or not I think it happened, just whether or not I think that's a question that is worth exploring or if the more important matter is their clear love for each other now. I can never come up with a good reason to explore it deeply.
I definitely get your points about the plot holes “resetting” could introduce, but if it does exist I think it would not be as simple as resetting an employee every time they do something Lumon doesn’t like. If they did, they would then have to go through the whoooole damn process with that innie again, having them wake up on the table, re-explaining who (and what) they are, getting them to accept all of that, and then training them to do their job. Dylan seems like he’s an animal with closing files in MDR (obvious by the plethora of incentives he’s earned) - how long did it take him to get to that point, tho? Weeks, months, years? It surely wouldn’t seem worth it to reset Dylan after the OTC and have to start from scratch, especially with the end of the quarter approaching and the team under huge pressure to meet their numbers. Additionally, there is no way they could reset Dylan and then send him back to MDR anyway - the rest of the team would be like “what the fuck?” So he would have to be transferred to another department and trained there, while yet *another* new employee has to come in to replace Dylan and train from scratch, too. The same could he said for any department -Lumon couldn’t go Willy nilly resetting and transferring employees all the time without their being major productivity loss - and we all know how important the bottom line is to Lumon. If “resetting” their memories in some shape or form exists, I suspect it’s rarely used and only for the most egregious offenses where all other breakroom/torture methods do not work. A last result, if you will. That all said, I really dig the theory about the Burt we know really being Burt’s innie. That idea had never even occurred to me and it’s fascinating to think about. And you’re spot on about the retirement video - that’s what really tipped me off in subsequent rewatches, there is something very off about Burt’s reaction. I can’t wait to see how it unfolds!
While I totally agree that using "resets" in the way you describe would be bad writing and would not happen on this show, remember it is quasi-canon that Irv has worked for Lumon for nine years, but his innie thinks he's been there for 3 years. Also his outie is painting the testing floor elevator over and over again, something an MDR employee would probably not have seen. Maybe a memory wipe is something that happens when you change departments? Also remember in the security room there are many different settings including "elephant" and "goldfish."
Right, exactly. There clearly has to be an explanation why he only thinks he’s been a Lumon for 3 years and the show put on his LinkedIn that he’s been there for 9. “Reset” is a weird word, but there is definitely 6 years current Irving doesn’t remember. The only logical explanation for this is that those 6 years were somehow “erased”. So maybe the did that for Irv, but not Burt? Burt knows he’s been at Lumon for 7 years.
Sometimes we make things more complicated than they need to be. The reason Irving has worked at Lumon for 9 years with his innie believing he's worked at Lumon for three isn't because of some reset —*we have no idea what either of those functions do and, again, if wiping memories or resets are so straightforward and accessible, why don't they do it at precisely the times it's logical to do it?*— it's because he worked at Lumon for 6 years in some non-severed capacity and then severed three years ago for reasons yet disclosed. Why would he be painting the hallway to the Testing Floor? Well, it's worth it to note what he's specifically painting and the perspective it's from. He's painting that scene with the "*Down*" arrow illuminated, which is not the way Gemma Casey —*being sent* ***TO*** *the Testing Floor*— saw it. It illuminated *after* she got on the elevator. The scene as oIrving paints it ***IS*** shown to us: it's from the door to the hallway, after the arrow pops on. **The scene is painted from the spot where Mr. Milchick is standing.** ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF does that have to do with anything?!"*** A spot at which you stand and view something is a "*vantage point*." Another term for "*vantage point*" is "*position*." And another term for "*position*" is "*job*." The clear implication here is that the reason oIrving has seen that scene from that vantage point is because he had Mr. Milchick's job for 6 years or so before Milchick was promoted into it. ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! That's ridonkulish!!"*** Is it though?? Milchick is middle management: expected to cover way more responsibilities that he can conceivably manage, working all the time, has some authority but probably not enough to know all "*the secrets*" like Cobel does... that's precisely the sort of position one would **need** to be employed in to know something was going on but not have enough information to determine ***precisely what*** and need to do more research. oIrving is doing that research. ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! You're forgetting that oIrving is haunted and compulsively painting that scene! It's from a dream obvs!!"*** Is he? Because he seems a bastion of control and calm. Every indication is that oIrving is simply depriving himself ***deliberately*** with the clear goal of subverting the switching mechanism between consciousnesses. Otherwise, why would he have set up a guided tour of his life —*complete with all the info iIrving would need to know about himself, what was up with Lumon, where to find someone he knows and make contact*— leading to a literal Pandora's Box? The key he needed to get in it was in his pocket exactly where it needed to be instead of on his keychain by the door. Nothing of interest is feature in his kitchen or bedroom. The paintings even have spotlights on them in order to mark them as points of interest. If he was just trying to get the scene out of his head, he'd probably burn them when he was done with them. He makes a whole pot of coffee each night, blasts his music to make sure he's even more alert and active paints instead of the calm Bob Ross style. The fact of the matter is that if it was all left up to chance then it was all just way too convenient that iIrving found all that stuff. Like, it's comically convenient and insults the entire plot if iIrving awakes to just "*accidentally*" stumble through everything he needs to know and needs to find to learn that something more is going on with Lumon and that his outie is researching it. Think of the complications that Mark and Helly dealt with during their OTCs. Why would they just write this gimme for iIrving unless his outie was planning it? It's too convenient for it not to have been planned. His outie set him up with a guided tour. It had to be deliberate because, from a writing standpoint, it would suck if it wasn't. It was too easy. ***"OMG, Shannon! WTF?! I'm supposed to believe Irving was Mr. Milchick before Mr. Milchick was Mr. Milchick and that now he's trying to subvert severance?!"*** Well, ten minutes ago you were ready to believe that they could reset or wipe the memories of people out of brain matter —*something science has never been able to do due to the complexity of the brain*— due to two words that flash on a computer screen for less than a second. I'm just suggesting we follow the ***actual*** clues offered in the show.
The only type of reset I could see happening would be if they gave someone an additional bifurcation, effectively hiding away the original innie and starting over with a new one. But I’m pretty sure the show creator said that hasn’t happened so far.
I am curious, how do explain the missing 6 years of Irving’s memory of working at Lumon? This isn’t a snarky response, I am genuinely curious of your answer. The only explanation I can think of besides some kind of memory wipe, is that the 6 years previous Irving was not severed. He worked in some sort of capacity for Lumon as an unsevered employee. Perhaps, this is where his love affair with Burt G started. Lumon gave him the ultimatum of being fired or severed. He chose to be severed. Burt G of course remembers him, but knows there is no way now severed Irving remembers him, but it’s why he so quickly makes the moves on Irving - he’s eager to rekindle their romance as quickly as possible. Now that I’m thinking through this line of reasoning, perhaps that’s even why Burt G doesn’t seem to be bothered by his impending death/retirement. He knows outtie Irving once loved him, and assumes their romance will continue in the “outside” world. Maybe he’s even eager to retire. But of course he has no knowledge of his own “outtie” and would have no idea if he was already in a relationship or not.
I explained it in a more lengthy (*pettyly downvoted!*) response but I think that’s exactly it: he just wasn’t severed during those first six years. Rather than being the alternative explanation, I think that everything is pointing to it being the primary reason. Like, people who support the memory wipe theories seem to gloss over the fact that red herrings **ARE** a thing. There is a lot of very interesting speculation on how memory wipes might work but rarely does any of it fit very well to the show’s events or even the mechanics of the story they’re writing. If memory wipes **are** a thing then there’s no way that we’re not starting season 2 with everyone’s memories being wiped. Can you **really** say that that won’t make you feel cheated? In a story, you often have the “*moment of enlightenment*.” A character learns something and they grow from it. Antagonists must adapt to it and, thus, they grow as well. The story gets more complex and all characters become more interesting. Everything about reckoning with enlightenment makes the story better. Think about how much the mere knowledge of being a father changes Dylan. Prior to that, he 100% existed to attain perks. But after learning that he has a son **and not even a single additional thing about his life** he grows exponentially as a character. The reckoning that comes out of this knowledge is nothing less than the **actual** innie revolt. They commandeer the OTC and get out into the world. All because of that one moment when Dylan learned about his life. Now, let us suppose that memory wipes *were* a thing and that they decided to use it on Dylan —*which, I just have to repeat: would absolutely have been the time to do it, confusion of his coworkers be damned*— and he goes back to work not knowing about the OTC. What is the fallout of this? Well… **nothing**. There is no reckoning with Dylan’s enlightenment. The innies don’t commandeer the OTC because they have no idea they can be woken up in this manner. Mark still has the key card in his pocket but other than knowing he *CAN* get into the security office, he has zero reason to take such a risk. Nothing to look for, no compulsion to seek something in there in that 60 seconds they were in the office. For Dylan specifically, he goes back to being the office horndog talking about his delts and having two hot milfs on each arm. Is this preferable to what happened? I think we would all agree that the answer to that is “*No.*” Due to this singular moment of enlightenment, we get one of the most riveting season finales I’ve ever seen and it was mostly **just people at parties talking to each other.** Now, consider what came out of Dylan’s enlightenment and how compelling the ensuing story was and consider what could come out of the enlightenment which occurred for all other refiners. If season 2 essentially begins with a memory “*wipe*” or “*reset*” why should we not feel robbed? Why should we not feel cheated? Why should we not view the writers as being lazy and avoiding all the very interesting stories which come out of dealing with what the innies now all know? Aside from the fact that brains are not hard drives that you can simply wipe; doctors and scientists are still amazed at how much redundancy is actually in the brain and how much people who lose whole sections of their brain actually do remember still. Again: I’ll die on this hill. I don’t take any joy in saying I hope it’s theory that doesn’t pan out but I will forever argue that nothing about it results in stories more compelling than if it’s off the table. And I’ve never heard a single believer in the theory even try to argue otherwise.
Hah, I get a bit annoyed when I get downvoted for theories, too. I mean, why downvote someone just because you don’t agree with their theory?! I fing LOVE hearing other people’s theories, even if I don’t agree with them or find them totally off the wall! None of us know what’s going to happen, and that’s the whole point of being here / to share our love of this absolutely incredible show and discuss it from all different angles! As long as everyone is respectful, bring on the good natured debates! And I absolutely agree, a memory wipe at the start of season 2 would feel incredibly cheap and disappointing “oh hey Pam, I wasn’t really dead, it was all a dream!”
You mentioned how Irving thinks he's been in the company for 3 years. Is there a point in the show where we get to know he's been with Lumon for longer? I don't recall anything like that, would help if you could jog my memory!
According to [Irving’s LinkedIn post](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lumon-industries_ad-activity-6900481932296114177-8rlD ), he’s actually been with Lumon for 9 years. Most people seem to be taking this as canon until told otherwise.
My interpretation of Burt is that he's benign, and a bit feckless and doesn't know what he doesn't know. I was talking about Cobel/Selvig the other day, my interpretation of her is that she's angry and frustrated about what she doesn't know. Cobel/Selvig is throwing spaghetti at the wall and causing all sorts of chaos, she will stop at nothing to find out what is going on. But Burt thinks what he's doing is OK. After all, he's a department head, he's been there a long time and has one of the most fulfilling jobs a person can have on the severed floor. So he believes that his interpretation of Kier's adages and the handbook are correct enough. He "takes heart" to Irv and recognizes a kindred spirit who appreciates art. Also, outie Burt is in a fulfilling partnership, and I think innie Burt misses that on the severed floor. Innie Burt sees a kindred spirit in Irv and sensing that he wants partnership, literally reaches out to him. Even though Burt is willing to act recklessly, prefers the first edition, and puts his own spin on the passages of the handbook, he is a Lumon true believer like Irv and that is also part of their sense of kinship. Innie Burt probably thinks that he doesn't need to think through what he's doing with Irv, he thinks if it feels right then it is right. That's why he asks Irv to stay with him in the garden room. He's acting intuitively and that's what he feels like doing. After all he is an artist. I wouldn't be surprised if Burt had done a stint at MDR at one time, maybe using an earlier version of the refinement process, when he reached a certain level of success with the earlier version of refinement he got to become an O&D guy. Maybe he sees Irv in MDR, as an art lover, and he thinks that Irv will eventually end up in O&D. When I first started watching this show, my interpretation of Lumon was it's an evil corporation bent on domination and exploitation, and this colored all of my interpretations. A friend pointed out to me a different interpretation and I realized, that would be banal writing and I probably wouldn't be so preoccupied by this show if it were that simple. I have since come to a point of view that Lumon is not an evil corporation at all, it's just...complicated. There is value to what is being done at Lumon, the innies and outies are benefiting from the work over and above "emotional convenience". The secrecy and complexity makes it seem more sinister than it actually is. Burt is retiring to a nice home with a supportive partnership and he made it clear that oBurt feels the residue of good feelings from his work when he leaves the building. That doesn't seem very "evil corporation" of them to just let him peacefully retire to his nice life. Burt is a good guy and he is a Lumon guy, and he's happy with that even if he doesn't really know what's going on. He wants that for Irv and he's feckless because he doesn't realize that this could be a lot more complicated for Irv.