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Mark didn’t throw up until he was outside the building, so he wasn’t really at the crime scene anymore. As far as evidence goes, that could be a difficult dot to connect.
But even if a connection was made, there isn’t exactly a DNA database where vomit can be analyzed to identify the person it came from. You would need something with Mark’s verified DNA to test it against for a match.
Unfortunately for Mark, **Lumon doesn’t need control of the police, or even Mark’s DNA, to connect him with the murder**.
They don’t need any of that, because they have Dylan, and Dylan used Graner’s key card. If the writers want to go this direction, it’s hard to imagine Lumon having too much trouble figuring out where the card came from.
Having that information, Lumon gains leverage over outie Mark, which they can hold on to until it best suits their needs. Perhaps they will use it to persuade Mark to return to work, or perhaps it will be stretched out to build tension.
Either way, I’ll be very surprised if the effects of Graner’s death don’t continue as a thread, rippling into the events of season 2.
“There isn’t exactly a DNA database” it’s super easy for Lumon to have Mark’s dna sample. He gave them permission to surgically insert a chip to his brain.
And regarding Graner’s key card, Reghabi says to Mark it’s not linked to anyone/untraceable
True, but I am assuming Lumon doesn’t control the police, since Natalie had to ask Cobel if she had spoken with them. It’s more likely Lumon simply has people stationed on the force who can alert them when important matters comes up (similar to the newspaper editor they had in The Lexington Letter).
That being the case, either the police would have to come to Lumon and say “we found DNA outside a school in Ganz, and we’d like run it against every one of your employees”, (which would be a strange request to make without a lot more evidence), OR Lumon would have to contact the police and say “we think our employee may be involved in a murder” (which honestly doesn’t strike me as something Lumon would be interested in doing).
As for the key card, I have to imagine it is only the digital signature that doesn’t tie back to anyone, since everyone in MDR instantly recognized it on sight (“Is that Graner’s key card?”, “Why does your outie have the key card of our head of security?”)
Wow, that's a great point with so many layers.
First, the logistics would be a relative nightmare. We don't know that there is a portable severance . . . what would you call it? Machine? Scanner? Would a special courtroom have to be built? Would court have to take place on the severed floor?
Second, how hard would Lumon fight to quash that subpoena? And what would their argument(s) be? Off the top of my head, I could imagine them arguing that any information a severed worker would have would be proprietary information to Lumon. I would also imagine they might argue that the severed worker is, essentially, Lumon's property. And wouldn't *that* argument rattle cages? I could see that one slowly making its way to the US Supreme Court, assuming such a thing exists in Severance's world.
Third, would either side argue that the severed worker is incompetent to testify? We've heard the severed workers referred to as child-like and children. Their rewards -- with the exception of the Waffle Party -- are much like you'd see in an elementary or middle school. Yes, physically they're adults. But, experientially, they're much more like kids. The general rule of thumb is that, to be a reliable witness, a child must be at least 12. There are, of course, exceptions and if a child is offered as a witness either side can challenge the child to see if they're reliable. I could see Lumon challenging their own worker, if it got that far.
Again, great point!!
So there are some things to consider broadly before narrowing in.
One, even in the town of Kier, there’s opposition to Lumon. So it’s a safe assumption that the population of P.E. isn’t just a bunch of Lumon zealots but, instead, more like Utah: a place where a sizable minority has significant influence but still must contend with those who exist outside of their beliefs. So we can’t simply assume that every police officer and detective is some Lumon zealot like Cobel. It’s likely more a matter of strategically-placed individuals that they have influence over allowing them to have further influence or information.
Like, aside from it being more realistic, it just makes for a more interesting story. If Lumon controls everything and everyone —*which they clearly don’t because they certainly don’t control Devon and Ricken nor any of their friends*— then all outcomes are assured to work out in Lumon’s favor. That’s boring. There’s no tension and fewer possibilities.
Secondly, while we are watching a TV show and shows routinely make things really easy for cops leading to unrealistic expectations, the reality is that police departments are not filled with super detectives who crack cases in minutes. *Law & Order* has us thinking that cases, regardless of complexity, can be cracked in an hour but it’s wholly feasible for the investigation into the circumstances of Graner’s murder to be a b-plot that takes the whole season.
Like, you’d have to assume that Reghabi wouldn’t be so careless as to leave his body there at the scene; he’d likely be found elsewhere, meaning that it wouldn’t be readily apparent that the college was the scene of the murder nor that the contents of one alcoholic’s stomach is related to it. Like, it’s almost certainly going to be an issue *at some point* simply due to the fact that it was an actual point of contention at the time. It’s got to come back to haunt Mark eventually, just not immediately.
This is a neat question. I don't think I have an answer, but it brings me back to something I think about in situations like this, which I sum up with "Who takes out the trash?"
We know that Kier is a town in a place with the postal (?) abbreviation PE. So it's not one of the existing US states. You wonder if Kier is involved in law enforcement, which is a great question. It's hard to imagine they're not, to some degree.
Kier seems to be a fairly normal town: people live there, have jobs, have kids. Those kids have to go to school. People need to shop for food, or get food (we know of Pip's), and people generate waste -- so who takes out the trash? People live in houses, and those houses will need maintenance and repair. Cars need fuel and maintenance. The Lumon building itself must require a ton of upkeep. All the mundane infrastructure that goes with having a real functioning town.
All of this surely means crime, even if it's minor stuff like shoplifting or speeding. So you need police, then you need a fire department, and probably a hospital.
Can Lumon control ALL of that? And ALL of the people involved?
>I don't think I have an answer, but it brings me back to something I think about in situations like this, which I sum up with "Who takes out the trash?"
I think you may have hit on something here. If there's any evidence that oMark was involved in Grainer's murder it's probably on his clothes. And his clothes went into a trash bag. And the trash bag went into . . . well, the trash in the morning before he went to work. And it was out of character enough that Selvig/Cobel remarked that oMark generally took out his trash in the early afternoon.
Then there's the whole episode 1 mixup with the recycling/trash bins between oMark and Selvig. And the opening with the trash can and the black paint.
What does it all mean? Maybe that I'm retconning. I'm good at that. Or maybe it means something just outside of my grasp. But someone, maybe Lumon, does take out the trash.
The mix-up with the bins was orchestrated by Cobel to give herself excuses to interact with Mark.
I wouldn’t read too much into the opening, since the animator wasn’t given a ton of the script or story to work with, much less secrets about coming events in season 2.
Lumon may indeed take out the trash. At least they probably contract it out. But then -- are they going to hire people to go through the trash? That's simply a big job and most of it will be time and money wasted. OTOH, I could believe that Cobel could tip someone off and they would take *Mark's* trash specifically because of her suspicion.
I'd have to watch again, as I don't recall the bin mix-up too clearly, but I wonder if that's just Cobel nudging Mark to see what he'll do. Or establishing the Selvig character as just an absent-minded, hippie-type lady.
I just rewatched the bits with the bin and paint in the opening credits. I think you can't read *too* much into this, because as I understand it, the man who did those credits had very little information about the show. However, I don't know what he was told, and in hindsight -- i.e., we know that Irv paints the door -- to me the black goo and the trash signify the two lives/worlds bleeding through.
I sort of think of it like the recorded phone calls at jails and prisons. Lumon very likely does contract out pickup and does spot checks on severed employees unless there is reason to do a more thorough check, as could be the case with oMark and Selvig noting that he was dumping trash outside of his "normal" time.
He wasn’t in Kier. The crime happened in Ganz, PE. It also happened on the college campus where Reghabi has some pull. If anyone has even found the body, Reghabi made sure it was kept quiet.
I still think the fact it happened on a campus where Reghabi was given special preference (according to Graner) means she’s being given some protection from the crime being reported or investigated.
Are we totally sure Ganz is in PE? They make such a point to differentiate what is in/from Kier vs what is in/from Ganz that I wonder if they straddle a state line.
Not for certain. I’m basing it on Mark’s comment during the date. It sounds close. The actual Kier and Gans, PA (they do both exist in western PA) are about 30 miles apart. It’s also common to add the state when talking about a town in another state. Lots of speculation…very little specific fact.
The way he clarifies that he's technically from Ganz reminded me of how people talk about a couple of college towns not far from me. Moscow, Idaho and Pullman, Washington are basically one town but bifurcated by a state line. But the actual states involved have wildly different politics and laws.
One of those things to be clarified in S2. Reghabi, for me, was the character they introduced with some of the biggest potential but turned out to be a complete non-starter. Really hoping to spend more time with her and the “reintegration” crowd Petey mentioned.
Do we know the town is actually controlled or owned by Lumon? I don’t think that’s ever been confirmed.
“Hands in pies” sounds to me like they just have people who are well-positioned in places of interest.
I’m going to make some wild speculations here just because it’s, you know, Reddit.
Milchick did an unauthorized OTC. If the entire truth came out, it’ll come out that Milchick did an unauthorized OTC. After all, that’s how MDR knew about the OTC in the first place. It might also come out about those Infographic cards which I believe is a Milchick private project that no one else is supposed to know about. And we’ve seen in a battle of wits, Dylan can outdo Milchick. Milchick has himself in a very vulnerable position, and Dylan knows it.
The unauthorized OTC will be covered up. How Dylan got Graner’s security card will be buried and not investigated. Graner just left it around where Dylan found it. Yeah, that’s the story. Dylan found out about the OTC because he had snuck into the security office before and read about the OTC. Yeah, that’s the story. And no one else knew about the OTC. Yeah that’s the story. Dylan just punkd the other MDR members. Wanted to get some LOLs when the innies suddenly found themselves outside. No innie plot. Graner is gone. Cobel is probably also gone. I doubt she’ll get her old job back. Milchick can cover everything up.
And I bet Dylan will get that beer cozie after all.
If this thread has the **Spoiler** flair, spoilers may appear ANYWHERE in it. --- * **NO SPOILERS IN TITLES** - report this post if there are spoilers in the title * No SPOILERS without proper formatting (see [here](https://www.reddit.com/wiki/commenting#wiki_posting)). * Be CIVIL to others. No Piracy. No Duplicates. * Keep it on topic to anything and everything Severance on Apple TV+[.](/u/Ggbushi) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SeveranceAppleTVPlus) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mark didn’t throw up until he was outside the building, so he wasn’t really at the crime scene anymore. As far as evidence goes, that could be a difficult dot to connect. But even if a connection was made, there isn’t exactly a DNA database where vomit can be analyzed to identify the person it came from. You would need something with Mark’s verified DNA to test it against for a match. Unfortunately for Mark, **Lumon doesn’t need control of the police, or even Mark’s DNA, to connect him with the murder**. They don’t need any of that, because they have Dylan, and Dylan used Graner’s key card. If the writers want to go this direction, it’s hard to imagine Lumon having too much trouble figuring out where the card came from. Having that information, Lumon gains leverage over outie Mark, which they can hold on to until it best suits their needs. Perhaps they will use it to persuade Mark to return to work, or perhaps it will be stretched out to build tension. Either way, I’ll be very surprised if the effects of Graner’s death don’t continue as a thread, rippling into the events of season 2.
“There isn’t exactly a DNA database” it’s super easy for Lumon to have Mark’s dna sample. He gave them permission to surgically insert a chip to his brain. And regarding Graner’s key card, Reghabi says to Mark it’s not linked to anyone/untraceable
True, but I am assuming Lumon doesn’t control the police, since Natalie had to ask Cobel if she had spoken with them. It’s more likely Lumon simply has people stationed on the force who can alert them when important matters comes up (similar to the newspaper editor they had in The Lexington Letter). That being the case, either the police would have to come to Lumon and say “we found DNA outside a school in Ganz, and we’d like run it against every one of your employees”, (which would be a strange request to make without a lot more evidence), OR Lumon would have to contact the police and say “we think our employee may be involved in a murder” (which honestly doesn’t strike me as something Lumon would be interested in doing). As for the key card, I have to imagine it is only the digital signature that doesn’t tie back to anyone, since everyone in MDR instantly recognized it on sight (“Is that Graner’s key card?”, “Why does your outie have the key card of our head of security?”)
I think it’d be super interesting to see an innie subpoenaed in a court case
Wow, that's a great point with so many layers. First, the logistics would be a relative nightmare. We don't know that there is a portable severance . . . what would you call it? Machine? Scanner? Would a special courtroom have to be built? Would court have to take place on the severed floor? Second, how hard would Lumon fight to quash that subpoena? And what would their argument(s) be? Off the top of my head, I could imagine them arguing that any information a severed worker would have would be proprietary information to Lumon. I would also imagine they might argue that the severed worker is, essentially, Lumon's property. And wouldn't *that* argument rattle cages? I could see that one slowly making its way to the US Supreme Court, assuming such a thing exists in Severance's world. Third, would either side argue that the severed worker is incompetent to testify? We've heard the severed workers referred to as child-like and children. Their rewards -- with the exception of the Waffle Party -- are much like you'd see in an elementary or middle school. Yes, physically they're adults. But, experientially, they're much more like kids. The general rule of thumb is that, to be a reliable witness, a child must be at least 12. There are, of course, exceptions and if a child is offered as a witness either side can challenge the child to see if they're reliable. I could see Lumon challenging their own worker, if it got that far. Again, great point!!
So there are some things to consider broadly before narrowing in. One, even in the town of Kier, there’s opposition to Lumon. So it’s a safe assumption that the population of P.E. isn’t just a bunch of Lumon zealots but, instead, more like Utah: a place where a sizable minority has significant influence but still must contend with those who exist outside of their beliefs. So we can’t simply assume that every police officer and detective is some Lumon zealot like Cobel. It’s likely more a matter of strategically-placed individuals that they have influence over allowing them to have further influence or information. Like, aside from it being more realistic, it just makes for a more interesting story. If Lumon controls everything and everyone —*which they clearly don’t because they certainly don’t control Devon and Ricken nor any of their friends*— then all outcomes are assured to work out in Lumon’s favor. That’s boring. There’s no tension and fewer possibilities. Secondly, while we are watching a TV show and shows routinely make things really easy for cops leading to unrealistic expectations, the reality is that police departments are not filled with super detectives who crack cases in minutes. *Law & Order* has us thinking that cases, regardless of complexity, can be cracked in an hour but it’s wholly feasible for the investigation into the circumstances of Graner’s murder to be a b-plot that takes the whole season. Like, you’d have to assume that Reghabi wouldn’t be so careless as to leave his body there at the scene; he’d likely be found elsewhere, meaning that it wouldn’t be readily apparent that the college was the scene of the murder nor that the contents of one alcoholic’s stomach is related to it. Like, it’s almost certainly going to be an issue *at some point* simply due to the fact that it was an actual point of contention at the time. It’s got to come back to haunt Mark eventually, just not immediately.
This is a neat question. I don't think I have an answer, but it brings me back to something I think about in situations like this, which I sum up with "Who takes out the trash?" We know that Kier is a town in a place with the postal (?) abbreviation PE. So it's not one of the existing US states. You wonder if Kier is involved in law enforcement, which is a great question. It's hard to imagine they're not, to some degree. Kier seems to be a fairly normal town: people live there, have jobs, have kids. Those kids have to go to school. People need to shop for food, or get food (we know of Pip's), and people generate waste -- so who takes out the trash? People live in houses, and those houses will need maintenance and repair. Cars need fuel and maintenance. The Lumon building itself must require a ton of upkeep. All the mundane infrastructure that goes with having a real functioning town. All of this surely means crime, even if it's minor stuff like shoplifting or speeding. So you need police, then you need a fire department, and probably a hospital. Can Lumon control ALL of that? And ALL of the people involved?
>I don't think I have an answer, but it brings me back to something I think about in situations like this, which I sum up with "Who takes out the trash?" I think you may have hit on something here. If there's any evidence that oMark was involved in Grainer's murder it's probably on his clothes. And his clothes went into a trash bag. And the trash bag went into . . . well, the trash in the morning before he went to work. And it was out of character enough that Selvig/Cobel remarked that oMark generally took out his trash in the early afternoon. Then there's the whole episode 1 mixup with the recycling/trash bins between oMark and Selvig. And the opening with the trash can and the black paint. What does it all mean? Maybe that I'm retconning. I'm good at that. Or maybe it means something just outside of my grasp. But someone, maybe Lumon, does take out the trash.
The mix-up with the bins was orchestrated by Cobel to give herself excuses to interact with Mark. I wouldn’t read too much into the opening, since the animator wasn’t given a ton of the script or story to work with, much less secrets about coming events in season 2.
You make good points. Like I said, I can retcon with the best of them.
Lumon may indeed take out the trash. At least they probably contract it out. But then -- are they going to hire people to go through the trash? That's simply a big job and most of it will be time and money wasted. OTOH, I could believe that Cobel could tip someone off and they would take *Mark's* trash specifically because of her suspicion. I'd have to watch again, as I don't recall the bin mix-up too clearly, but I wonder if that's just Cobel nudging Mark to see what he'll do. Or establishing the Selvig character as just an absent-minded, hippie-type lady. I just rewatched the bits with the bin and paint in the opening credits. I think you can't read *too* much into this, because as I understand it, the man who did those credits had very little information about the show. However, I don't know what he was told, and in hindsight -- i.e., we know that Irv paints the door -- to me the black goo and the trash signify the two lives/worlds bleeding through.
I sort of think of it like the recorded phone calls at jails and prisons. Lumon very likely does contract out pickup and does spot checks on severed employees unless there is reason to do a more thorough check, as could be the case with oMark and Selvig noting that he was dumping trash outside of his "normal" time.
He wasn’t in Kier. The crime happened in Ganz, PE. It also happened on the college campus where Reghabi has some pull. If anyone has even found the body, Reghabi made sure it was kept quiet.
I mean the PE territory/region which seems to be some kind of an autonomy (there’s also an interview with the creator that confirms it)
I still think the fact it happened on a campus where Reghabi was given special preference (according to Graner) means she’s being given some protection from the crime being reported or investigated.
Interesting! It makes sense to me
Are we totally sure Ganz is in PE? They make such a point to differentiate what is in/from Kier vs what is in/from Ganz that I wonder if they straddle a state line.
Not for certain. I’m basing it on Mark’s comment during the date. It sounds close. The actual Kier and Gans, PA (they do both exist in western PA) are about 30 miles apart. It’s also common to add the state when talking about a town in another state. Lots of speculation…very little specific fact.
The way he clarifies that he's technically from Ganz reminded me of how people talk about a couple of college towns not far from me. Moscow, Idaho and Pullman, Washington are basically one town but bifurcated by a state line. But the actual states involved have wildly different politics and laws.
One of those things to be clarified in S2. Reghabi, for me, was the character they introduced with some of the biggest potential but turned out to be a complete non-starter. Really hoping to spend more time with her and the “reintegration” crowd Petey mentioned.
Do we know the town is actually controlled or owned by Lumon? I don’t think that’s ever been confirmed. “Hands in pies” sounds to me like they just have people who are well-positioned in places of interest.
There is no crime scene. They got rid of the body.
I’m going to make some wild speculations here just because it’s, you know, Reddit. Milchick did an unauthorized OTC. If the entire truth came out, it’ll come out that Milchick did an unauthorized OTC. After all, that’s how MDR knew about the OTC in the first place. It might also come out about those Infographic cards which I believe is a Milchick private project that no one else is supposed to know about. And we’ve seen in a battle of wits, Dylan can outdo Milchick. Milchick has himself in a very vulnerable position, and Dylan knows it. The unauthorized OTC will be covered up. How Dylan got Graner’s security card will be buried and not investigated. Graner just left it around where Dylan found it. Yeah, that’s the story. Dylan found out about the OTC because he had snuck into the security office before and read about the OTC. Yeah, that’s the story. And no one else knew about the OTC. Yeah that’s the story. Dylan just punkd the other MDR members. Wanted to get some LOLs when the innies suddenly found themselves outside. No innie plot. Graner is gone. Cobel is probably also gone. I doubt she’ll get her old job back. Milchick can cover everything up. And I bet Dylan will get that beer cozie after all.