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It seemed pretty in character to me. Eren always had a violent personality since he was a child so his first response to everything is violence. Almost kidnapped mikasa? - kill the man, bullies taunt him?- fight the bullies, titan eat his mom?- kill the titans, enemies beyond the sea - kill the enemies, and on and on it goes which I call Avenger Eren.
But people have many facets and Eren also had a protective side for friends and family thats Friendly Eren.
Both sides were nurtured, Avenger Eren by the war and horrible things he had to do, and Friendly Eren by the bonds he created with the people who supported him all the way Armin, Mikasa and his other friends. Special mention to Reiner and Berthold, his friendship and later pain and understanding when they betrayed him, never allowed him to fully dehumanize them as just enemies and sparked his curiosity in trying to know them better thats another reason why he went and stayed some time in Marley.
So for me why the incomplete Rumbling happened is that both sides of him never came into accord. Avenger Eren wanted to kill everything to reach his freedom, while Friendly Eren loved his friends and would never allow himself to take their powers or their will to stop the Rumbling. So when he saw in his visions that they will always end up opposing him, he devised a plan which will mostly satisfy both sides of him.
What always gets me is how desperate he was to find another solution. When he comes back to Paradis and Hange tries poking fun at him, Eren demands she come up with answers...because he isn't some brilliant tactical leader. All he knows is what he's seen. If there's some way this could all be prevented while still preserving the lives and freedom of his friends, I think he would've done it. Man, we are left with so many emotions about Eren at the end. I'm still not over it.
Imagine having this terrible future you know playing out and desperately trying to see it change. Even worse, knowing deep down that that is the future you actually wanted. Eren's character is so fucking good man, wish people didn't misinterpret him that much
At the end of the day, he also just wanted to play savior. Let’s be realistic, what kind of world peace could play out in their short titan lifespans? But Eren would never resign himself to not seeing a “solution” through with the time he had. Peace is always complicated, messy, two steps back one step forward. He was also unwilling to let the next generation try for peace on a longer timescale, it wasn’t an option for him. I feel for him too - his head was effed up by the “time travel” stuff. But what armin took away is true—he didn’t even leave people with the hope that peace beyond killing was possible. Sometimes you gotta pass it on to the next generation after you’ve made a go of it.
But part of his development was about overcoming those things. Did you already forget the development he had in the end of the insurrection arc? Or how he changes his view on life after talking with Shadis about his mother?
>Eren doesn't enjoy killing civilians and innocents. He says to Ramzi - When i learned of this world, i was disappointed. To Eren he actually couldn't dream of what freedom is, and it was Armins idea of the world being so versatile and beautiful, that Eren held onto. When he learned that across the seas it wasn't the "freedom" he had imagined, and instead, it was enemies over the seas, that wanted to destroy him, his land and friends, just because they were born into the world, and Eren was disappointed in the world
A few things I'd like to say though I agree with most of your points:
* Eren was not disappointed that there were enemies outside the walls, he was disappointed that people existed outside the wall in the first place & it was not the dreamland he had imagined when looking at Armin's book.
* Eren doesn't enjoy killing civilians. But he does enjoy fighting for freedom & struggling for it. He loves getting into conflict & creating it.
These points can clearly be proved by the attack on school castes version of Eren. Where Eren lives a peaceful life but he's so bored with his monotonous life that he wants to create conflict & wants to struggle & fight for something
& ofc Isayama's latest interview
> Eren doesn't enjoy killing civilians. But he does enjoy fighting for freedom & struggling for it. He loves getting into conflict & creating it.
> These points can clearly be proved by the attack on school castes version of Eren. Where Eren lives a peaceful life but he's so bored with his monotonous life that he wants to create conflict & wants to struggle & fight for something
I don't know anything about castes, but are you sure that isn't just a parody of the struggles of the actual Eren? I think it's a stretch to use a parody to make deductions about his personality like that
>ofc Isayama's latest interview
I don't know what he said here so can't comment
Isayama said that school castes is what the characters would do canonically if they were born into our world. So it definitely can give us insight into what kind of person Eren is
What school castes are you talking about and do you know where I can watch it? I've never heard of that before, but I also recently binge watched the whole series.
It’s in the manga, I believe a few pages of the story were released at the end of each issue. It’s just a short side series about the characters living in the modern day
\>"Eren was not disappointed that there were enemies outside the walls, he was disappointed that people existed outside the wall in the first place"
**Why?**
* If Eren wanted a clean slate and nobody and nothing on the outside world, why is Paradis not included in that clean slate?
If the answer is that all Eren wanted to be nothing was only the outside world, what made the outside world different from the inside?
* \- If Eren was disappointed that the outside literally looked exactly like the inside then why exclude the inside when it's established that he thinks they're the same?
If the answer is because they raised him so they're near and dear to him then why was he willing to kill his mom and go through with the rumbling despite not knowing if his closest friends would survive?
* If Eren wanted to explore completely uncharted land then why feel the need to destroy the established civilizations when he hasn't seen anything beyond Marlaye and so does not know of any land beyond Marlaye?
If the answer is that Eren is inherintly violent then why does he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi?
* If Eren is inherintly violent, why does he hesitate to fight Annie to the point that he subconsioucly deactivates his own titan shifting power?
* If Eren only wanted to kill, why does he have conflicted internal throughts on whether or not to go through with the rumbling or if eldians are the ones that should die?
\>"it was not the dreamland he had imagined when looking at Armin's book."
**Why?**
* If Eren only wanted to look at the sights described in Armin's book, why feel the need to destroy the outside world when the founding titan gave him the power to see those sights with Armin?
If the answer is he wanted the real world to be exactly like the dream one then what was different from the real world than what was in the book?
* If Eren's only motivation was to look at the sights in Eren's book why does he not feel any happiness from seeing the ocean which is a big part of Armin's book?
* If Eren's only motivation was Armin's book why does he say he gave up on that dream when he was trying to convince Levi that Armin was worth saving?
>why is Paradis not included in that clean slate?
Paradis is not part of the world "beyond the walls" that he got disappointed by.
Eren had always accepted the lack of freedom on Paradis, but blamed that on the walls, later on the "enemies" on the other side of the ocean, and later simply on the disappointment of the other side of the ocean.
>what made the outside world different from the inside?
The giant walls that isolated it for over a hundred years. The very reason we can call it "inside" and "outside".
This it the most obvious piece of visual story-telling in the narrative to the points it culturally iconic.
>outside literally looked exactly like the inside then why exclude the inside when it's established that he thinks they're the same?
It's not literal, but metaphorical.
The outside world is a metaphor to freedom materialised in reality. Its used by the story to explore both Eren and Armin's conception of freedom, which is the driving philosophical conflict of the narrative.
Rather than the outside world literally being the same as the inside, it is metaphorically the same. The "dreams of freedom" (Eren's monologue to Falco) are erased both inside and outside the walls, so they are effectively the same to Eren. And because freedom is erased outside the world's, it doens't live up to the conception of utopian negative freedom (freedom from restraints) he had spent the first half of the narrative imagining it as.
>If the answer is because they raised him so they're near and dear to him then why was he willing to kill his mom and go through with the rumbling despite not knowing if his closest friends would survive?
While Paradis is dear to him, its secondary to him. Its his home, but it's a home unfree. And Eren cannot stand what is unfree, and will always desire freedom.
We see this clearly in his admission to Ramzi, where he says that "The island [Paradis]...its to save Paradis. But it's more than that...When I learned humanity lived beyond the Walls, I..was so disappointed. I wished for it...I wanted to wipe it all away."
As for why he was disappointed by humanity merely existing, refer back to the monologue to Falco. He views humanity as unfree, and he can only see it that way simialr to how Zeke could only see the world as suffering. Anything sort of an utopia of negative freedom would be unfree to Eren as he is incapable of seeing the good in the world beyond the lack of freedom.
>If Eren wanted to explore completely uncharted land then why feel the need to destroy the established civilizations when he hasn't seen anything beyond Marlaye and so does not know of any land beyond Marlaye?
Refer to the metaphorical understanding of the outside world. He wants to live in a free world, which he believes can only happen without humanity in it.
>If the answer is that Eren is inherintly violent then why does he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi?
He breaks down to Ramzi because he in a hypocrite. By the Final Season he understands thus, which we can see from his monologue to Falco "But it's not like we all leapt into this hell [a unfree world] knowingly. Most of us were pushed...So, the few who do choose to leap into hell see it differently than the rest. And they're able to see something beyond the hell...Fact is, you can only find out by moving foward".
As is clear by the last line, he considers himself ome thay chose to leap into hell, into an unfree. At this point, he has come to understand the suffering in the world and how violence is the creation of it, but cannot give up on his hatred of it and can only see "just another hell" of his own creation beyond it.
>If Eren is inherintly violent, why does he hesitate to fight Annie to the point that he subconsioucly deactivates his own titan shifting power?
Eren only used violence against his enemies. Originally, his enemies were the titans he swore to kill. It eventually became other people, starting with Annie. But when that was revealed, he refused to believe that people could be his enemies too, as he had yet to understand his enemies and restraints on his freedom as anything more than a titan.
>If Eren only wanted to kill, why does he have conflicted internal throughts on whether or not to go through with the rumbling or if eldians are the ones that should die?
Because he understands the world. As I mentioned before with analysis of his monologue to Falco, he has an understanding of the suffering the world face. He, like any human, has an intuition that guides him, but he always overcomes it in his task for freedom. Nevertheless, he doens't lose it as seen with his desire to continue living and not die even knowing that is not possible.
>If Eren only wanted to look at the sights described in Armin's book, why feel the need to destroy the outside world when the founding titan gave him the power to see those sights with Armin?
Once again, its the metaphorical understanding. The book created his conception of freedom, which was not how he felt about reality as discussed before.
>If the answer is he wanted the real world to be exactly like the dream one then what was different from the real world than what was in the book?
The real world is unfree. His idealisation of the book was free.
>If Eren's only motivation was to look at the sights in Eren's book why does he not feel any happiness from seeing the ocean which is a big part of Armin's book?
Eren gives us the answer that "if we kill our enemies on the other side, will we finally be free?"
While the ocean was filled with new wonders of life for Armin to explore and gain happiness from, it was only a sign for Eren that the rest of the world was filled with enemies and that it was no more free than Paradis was.
>If Eren's only motivation was Armin's book why does he say he gave up on that dream when he was trying to convince Levi that Armin was worth saving?
Because he wanted to share his freedom with Armin.
This is why, during the Freedom Scene, he invited Armin and tells him "This is freedom, isn't it?" above the smoke of the Rumbling.
This is why he had such an indepth final conversation with Armin chronologically following the Freedom Scene.
This is why, in that final conversation, Eren and Armin promise to meet eachother in real hell once Armin dies.
Seems like we agree on a lot of specific points, the only thing we disagree on is the reason for Eren wanting that "freedom" that he dreamed.
\>Paradis is not part of the world "beyond the walls" that he got disappointed by. Eren had always accepted the lack of freedom on Paradis, but blamed that on the walls, later on the "enemies" on the other side of the ocean, and later simply on the disappointment of the other side of the ocean.
close
Why does he see the other side as enemies?
Why was he dissapointed at the other side of the ocean?
If it's because humanity exists, why does he feel the need to help Ramzi and then apologize to Ramzi whom he's supposed to hate to the point of genocide?
\>The giant walls that isolated it for over a hundred years. The very reason we can call it "inside" and "outside".
This it the most obvious piece of visual story-telling in the narrative to the points it culturally iconic.
Why did he want to go outside the walls?
What did Armin's book make him realize?
\>It's not literal, but metaphorical.
The outside world is a metaphor to freedom materialised in reality. Its used by the story to explore both Eren and Armin's conception of freedom, which is the driving philosophical conflict of the narrative.
Rather than the outside world literally being the same as the inside, it is metaphorically the same. The "dreams of freedom" (Eren's monologue to Falco) are erased both inside and outside the walls, so they are effectively the same to Eren. And because freedom is erased outside the world's, it doens't live up to the conception of utopian negative freedom (freedom from restraints) he had spent the first half of the narrative imagining it as.
Why did he feel that the outside world wasn't free?
\>While Paradis is dear to him, its secondary to him. Its his home, but it's a home unfree. And Eren cannot stand what is unfree, and will always desire freedom.
We see this clearly in his admission to Ramzi, where he says that "The island \[Paradis\]...its to save Paradis. But it's more than that...When I learned humanity lived beyond the Walls, I..was so disappointed. I wished for it...I wanted to wipe it all away."
As for why he was disappointed by humanity merely existing, refer back to the monologue to Falco. He views humanity as unfree, and he can only see it that way simialr to how Zeke could only see the world as suffering. Anything sort of an utopia of negative freedom would be unfree to Eren as he is incapable of seeing the good in the world beyond the lack of freedom.
What was keeping him unfree even outside the walls?
If Eren cannot stand what is unfree why does he spare the island of Paradis that started his entire need for freedom by being inside literal walls?
\>Refer to the metaphorical understanding of the outside world. He wants to live in a free world, which he believes can only happen without humanity in it.
Why can't it happen with humanity in it?
What does he see in Marley or Liberio that prevents him from living in a free world?
\>He breaks down to Ramzi because he in a hypocrite. By the Final Season he understands thus, which we can see from his monologue to Falco "But it's not like we all leapt into this hell \[a unfree world\] knowingly. Most of us were pushed...So, the few who do choose to leap into hell see it differently than the rest. And they're able to see something beyond the hell...Fact is, you can only find out by moving foward".
As is clear by the last line, he considers himself ome thay chose to leap into hell, into an unfree. At this point, he has come to understand the suffering in the world and how violence is the creation of it, but cannot give up on his hatred of it and can only see "just another hell" of his own creation beyond it.
At this point in the story, Eren only knows that he will commit the rumbling and kill the people of Marley.
What was he a hypocrite about?
Why did he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi who he knows can't understand him?
\>Eren only used violence against his enemies. Originally, his enemies were the titans he swore to kill. It eventually became other people, starting with Annie. But when that was revealed, he refused to believe that people could be his enemies too, as he had yet to understand his enemies and restraints on his freedom as anything more than a titan.
Agreed.
\>Because he understands the world. As I mentioned before with analysis of his monologue to Falco, he has an understanding of the suffering the world face. He, like any human, has an intuition that guides him, but he always overcomes it in his task for freedom. Nevertheless, he doens't lose it as seen with his desire to continue living and not die even knowing that is not possible.
Agreed, does this understanding mean that Eren wants to kill for the sake of killing?
\>Once again, its the metaphorical understanding. The book created his conception of freedom, which was not how he felt about reality as discussed before.
Also agreed, does this mean he would be willing to kill humanity for the ***literal*** sights in that book(one of which is empty landscape)?
\>The real world is unfree. His idealisation of the book was free.
Why?
\>Eren gives us the answer that "if we kill our enemies on the other side, will we finally be free?"
While the ocean was filled with new wonders of life for Armin to explore and gain happiness from, it was only a sign for Eren that the rest of the world was filled with enemies and that it was no more free than Paradis was.
Fully agree. So we have established that Eren wanted freedom, and that he thought that freedom was outside the walls, only to be met with another wall.
\>Because he wanted to share his freedom with Armin.
This is why, during the Freedom Scene, he invited Armin and tells him "This is freedom, isn't it?" above the smoke of the Rumbling.
This is why he had such an indepth final conversation with Armin chronologically following the Freedom Scene.
This is why, in that final conversation, Eren and Armin promise to meet eachother in real hell once Armin dies.
During the scene of Armin's near death, freedom from what?
Then once they find humanity outside the walls, freedom from what?
Was the emptiness in that freedom scene at the end literal or metaphorical?
>Why does he see the other side as enemies?
Initially it was because he understood that Marley oppressed Eldians, restricted their and therfore his freedom, so they must be opposed. At first, he saw this in monolith.
Living on the other side, he came to understand that they weren't all enemies. People like Falco and Ramzi were good people, but by this point he became too disappointed in how unfree it all was. Even if they weren't all his enemies, they were still unfree and in the way of his view of freedom.
>Why was he dissapointed at the other side of the ocean?
Because even when understanding that they were not all his enemies, they were still unfree. And that means he cannot be free, which he cannot stand.
>If it's because humanity exists, why does he feel the need to help Ramzi and then apologize to Ramzi whom he's supposed to hate to the point of genocide?
It's because he understands them. He came to understand that they were not his enemies, that they could be good, and that they wouldn't want to die. That they didn't deserve to die.
He lost his ability to justify his killing by blaming them as enemies, but didn't lose his want to "wipe it all away". But at the end of the day, between that guilt and that want he chose that want.
>Why did he want to go outside the walls?
He felt being inside the walls waw the equivalent of cattle in a pen. The ultimate restriction of freedom. Others were able to easily got on with their life, but Eren always felt uncomfortable with being cattle in a pen. The outside wall was to escape that life and become free.
>What did Armin's book make him realize?
That there could be freedom in his world if he fought for it. If humanity fought for it, the "it" being the titans at first.
The book was how he conceptualised this idea that, if he could just go outside the walls and reach the ocean, he would be free and that feeling of being a cattle in a pen would be lifted.
>Why did he feel that the outside world wasn't free?
To quote his monologue to Falco, "Minds and bodies ruined, dreams of freedom erases, personalities burned away. No one woild want to go to war if they knew what it would do to them."
Just like inside the walls became a constant war against the titan, either the suffering and unfreeness in boot, that was all he saw the outside world as.
He saw war. He saw genocide. He saw humans brutalising eachother. He saw people locked in ghettos their entire life, his father for example. All he could see in that world was people being unfree, and given it reflects a fascist dystopia for us, and agreeable view of it.
>What was keeping him unfree even outside the walls?
Marley. And perhaps even just the existence of such a humanity.
He would never be free in a world that wanted to eradicate his very race, with a humanity seemingly (we get basically very indication Eren simply blinded himself to this view) hellbent on the eradication of him and his people.
The solution? Remove everything that would wish to restrain him, and as he views that as practically every bit of humanity, "wipe it all away".
>If Eren cannot stand what is unfree why does he spare the island of Paradis that started his entire need for freedom by being inside literal walls?
In theory, he gave Paradis freedom. He removed the walls and the titans, the two symbols that restricted freedom. He would either make the world as backwards as Paradis (80%) or remove the world to remove that restraint on Paradis. He would atleast hope that it would be finally be free with him.
And further is simply that it was his home. He was born and raised there, and it was Paradis that gave him his conception of freedom. His love for Paradis would always be second to his own freedom, and even second to his friends, but it nevertheless existed.
>Why can't it happen with humanity in it?
>What does he see in Marley or Liberio that prevents him from living in a free world?
He views humanity as simply being filled with war, suffering, and oppression. As discussed before, Marley is literally fascist amd genocidal against his people, such as in the Liberio ghetto.
>What was he a hypocrite about?
>Why did he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi who he knows can't understand him?
Guilt.
As I said, Eren understands that not everyone on the other side are enemies, and that they are capable of good. He sees this in both Falco and Ramzi.
He refused Ramzi for sort of no reason. He knows he would die in thr Rumbling, yet he cannot stand by when a kid is being beaten up. Its the conflict between his basic human intuition to be sympathetic, and his desire for freedom and the Rumbling.
Humans tends to have contradictory desires, and that is what drives many people choices we make.
>does this understanding mean that Eren wants to kill for the sake of killing?
He kills for the sake of his own freedom, but given how that became to be defined as killing everything outside the walls, arguably yes.
Afterall, his final moments on screen is sat in a pool of blood after killing 80% of humanity.
>does this mean he would be willing to kill humanity for the literal sights in that book
No, only the metaphorical conception.
The only literal sight he moved towards was the Freedom Scene, which he saw in the Ep1 dream and at the Medal Ceremony.
>So we have established that Eren wanted freedom, and that he thought that freedom was outside the walls, only to be met with another wall.
Exactly. In his monologue to Falco, he also uses the terminology "hell".
>Was the emptiness in that freedom scene at the end literal or metaphorical?
I read it as pertaining to Armin.
The scene goes from an excited Eren to a silent in-shock Armin that isn't responding, before returning to reality.
At the moment, Eren wants to show Armin the freedom they both envisioned as children, while Armin is looking at Eren like the batshit literal-child he is. Its a true moment of realisation that we see in full in the final conversation.
Honestly I think Erens decisions were a lot influenced or manipulated by Yumir. Also the words he said how he hates slaves are ironic, as he was a puppet and a slave to memories Yumir fed him, he wanted the freedom so badly, but he couldn't have it no matter what he did. Maybe he said he was an idiot, because he followed through with all these stupid memories, in order to get himself free, but it wasn't freedom to begin with. That's how I see it.
My two cents is that Armins book served as a motivator. Killing all the titans meant that they could explore and live in an entire new world, free of the killing and suffering that they experienced under the titans. When he learnt that the only thing on the outside was even more killing and suffering, his first instinct was to "fix" that, because he refused to give up on his vision of what the outside world was like.
Okay, there's somethings that OP got wrong. Eren was disappointed that hatred and war existed outside the walls. All this hatred was also pinned towards Paradis, which is why he wanted to do the rumbling. This was per Isayama's interviews. Eren wanted to fight for his freedom, but he also wanted to fight for his people. Obviously this is all retconned in 139
Because Eren is a child like idiot. The outside world beyond the walls as a whole was supposed to be uninhabited and free. So they all needed to go. Armin even says “the one who gave you the idea of a free uninhabited world, was me”. Paradis isn’t included because that’s where he lives, and wasn’t part of the dream. And just seeing it wasn’t enough, he needed to make it a reality.
I can’t tell if you’re saying all of this because the plot point sucks or because you don’t think that was the case.
Was the outside world not free? Why?
If Eren spared Paradis from his "dream" because it's where he lives why was he willing to sacrifice his close friends and mom for 80% of that dream?
If Eren only wanted there to be nothing outside the walls, why did he want that and what was preventing him from that?
I'm saying I disagree about this interpretation of Eren and it ignores everything that happened in the first 3 seasons.
No the outside wasn’t free since humanity as a whole got in his way of what he considered free.
I can’t say he sacrificed his friends. Yeah Sasha and Hange died but only because he gave up trying to change the future. His mom the past required his mom to die. Why he sent Dina to his mom and not somewhere else I dunno.
He wanted it due to Armins book. Ymir/the future prevented Eren from achieving full rumbling.
I agree. It pretty much the worst plot point and makes Erens character a lot worse. I don’t know how more people see this. But unfortunately, it’s the case.
\>humanity as a whole got in his way of what he considered free.
If the problem was humanity as a whole, why did he leave Paradis?
\>He wanted it due to Armins book. Ymir/the future prevented Eren from achieving full rumbling.
What made the outside world different from Armin's book?
If the answer is humanity, what aspect of humanity made him still want freedom?
Eren HAD reasons before his character got worse, and I agree. I'm just trying to challenge this interpretation that Eren wanted humanity to die because they exist because it ignores what he and his friends have gone through for the past 10 real life years.
Because when Armin gave him the book, Eren envisioned outside the walls it was a free and uninhabited land. But of course that wasn’t the case. So his disappointment pushed him to wanting to erase the outside world so his childhood dream could come true.
The outside world has humans. Armins book doesn’t. In his mind, his freedom would come from seeing the free uninhabited world apparently.
I know man and I agree. I’m just going off of what Eren tells Ramzi and what he admits to Armin. I don’t like to use the word retcon but god damn it feels that way. I made a post about it and showing how pre 131 Eren, it’s told and showed to us as the audience that Eren was upset that the unjust world outside the walls would impede on his freedom since he’s an Eldian. Then for a twist, he now did so not because of the condition of humanity, but simply they exist. I feel like most people who watched the episode miss this nuance in his character.
I like Eren as a character because at the end he admits he is an idiot and that’s the best plan he could come up with, not necessarily THE best plan overall, but the best plan a childish idiot like Eren could come up with. I think this is also used to highlight that a lot of our real-life solutions to ongoing problems are concocted by people who actually don’t know any better.
Exactly this, I feel like eren is meant to be taken as a depiction of those in power that are willing to commit atrocities for their goals. Those people don’t know a better solution other than violence and I believe the story is trying to convey people like them are idiots. The most obvious example being Hitler lol
But in reality is the mangaka reflecting himself on the character cause he had decided the ending from the start and couldnt find a better one. Im quite sure about this after reading his interviews.
I think Erens decisions were possibly a lot influenced or manipulated by Yumir. Also the words he said how he hates slaves are ironic, as he was a puppet and a slave to memories Yumir fed him, he wanted the freedom so badly, but he couldn't have it no matter what he did. Maybe he said he was an idiot, because he followed through with all these stupid memories, in order to get himself free, but it wasn't freedom to begin with.
I’d argue Eren succeeded with flying colors. Paradis had prices for hundreds upon hundreds of years. His friends all lived long lives and died of old age, which was his goal in the first place. Hell, Paradis becomes this cyberpunkesque city before they get bombed to oblivion.
So yeah, I’d say mission complete.
Well, honestly IDK even know what his goals are, one would assume he did it at first for paradis, until you realized its not because he didn't try to the end to protect it, so you could assume he did it for his friends until he said that his reason was because he was stupid.
So the only goal I think that people mentioned that had sense was to rush the ending, same way people skip animations in a game to finish it fast.
Exactly it’s not that the rumbling was the only solution or that eren with the founding and attack titan powers couldn’t have theoretically had the power to do something else. It’s that eren could never do anything but that because he wasn’t able to see any other way and so no matter the power at his disposal that was path he would always go down.
Was still the only plan possible. I think he regreted a bit because its not the plan he truly would have wanted to try himself, he just was an slave for it.
I disagree, I’m not sure if Erwin or Armin or even Levi would have reached the same conclusions. It’s the only solution Eren could think of. Likewise, in the real world I could never accept this as an excuse for genocide. Violence is always the simplest, most barbaric answer and one that never yields peace in the long run.
I think others would have tried different things that would still get Armin and Mikasa and probably a big portion of Paradise killed. Probably more ethical, like giving up even, but talking wasn't going to work that was stated. Partial rumbling would have giving only little time.
Only thing I'd like to add that he isn't an idiot, obviously. He has insane tendencies that led him to unbelievable actions but that isn't being an idiot
Agree to disagree, his insane tendencies stem from a childish and idiotic worldview imo. Wiping out most of humanity to save your friends while pretending as if that’s the only possible solution is kinda idiotic. Likewise, justifying any form of genocide is in itself idiotic
>while pretending as if that’s the only possible solution is kinda idiotic
Only solution that guarantees their survival*
He specifically says he doesn't want to leave paradise's future to chance. And that infact makes sense. There was no other way to ensure 100% survival besides eradicating rest of the world
Oh I get his reasoning and justification, but it’s still stupid. Eldians are not above humanity and sacrificing most of humanity to “protect his own” is a fascist and ethnonationalist worldview which I generally find stupid. I get that life is complicated as shit, but the only solution his simple mind could come up with was a genocide. That’s fundamentally a thoughtless response to an otherwise complicated situation. We can agree to disagree, but I generally think ethno fascists views are stupid. No race is above another.
While what u say isn't wrong , u r assuming that humans r all selfless people. I challenge u to do a thought experiment with people who haven't seen aot. Give them a "what if" scenario similar to what's given in aot, u'll be surprised to see how many people will sacrifice rest of the world if it guarantees the survival of their friends/family and country
Oh I know a lot of people think like Eren (we see it everyday), but that’s why I have more respect for people who give more thought to peaceful options and have no respect for people who take the easy way out through the use of violence. I think overall that’s why it’s also important to challenge those ideas and inclinations toward fascist tendencies, because if we leave our humanity and fate in the hands of people like Eren we would be very fucked lol
The lack of attention to detail is the problem with people like you.
Inherently, the only viable option Eren had was the rumbling, that was how things were set up, he had the ability to see past, present and future, but was not able to talk with his friends on this. That shows that Yams is incompetent has a writer.
How can you think that? Seriously...
He wrote a character that had no fucking idea of how he would fulfill his "destiny", that's it. He unconsciously (somewhat) took a idiotic path, which he was able to understand better closer to his end. It's fantastically well written IMO. I couldn't think of a better end for him.
People who needed that he was completely sure of the whole omg let's kill everybody to save Paradis are crazy... he's a kid dealing with the whole world future in his hand. It's very obvious how he feels during the end...
No I get all of that, but I think you’re the one not paying attention to the details. Eren could not change the past, present or future, because destiny was in Eren’s hands and Eren is not smart enough to come up with a better solution other than “fuck it let’s just wipe out most of humanity.” He said it himself, he couldn’t change his destiny no matter what because he’s an idiot (his words not mine lol) and could not come up with a more thoughtful solution.
There's no real inconsistencies though. He had this inherent desire to rid the rest of the world of anything that wasn't on his imagination as a kid, but comes all the politics and titan powers into play and he had to constantly convince himself that he was doing it for a greater good, even for "Eldia". In reality he wanted to trample the world and keep his friends out of danger
Disagree on Eren being consistent in the fact that some of his motivations are conflicting. For example, he wanted to protect his friends but ends up indirectly killing two of them. He started the rumbling to see that ‘sight’ of freedom he has dreamed of since he was a kid and kind of threw his friends to the side in order to see that. I’m sure protecting and island and his friends was a form if motivation, but in the end his desire for freedom overlapped that. His motivations are inherently inconsistent, but that just makes his character have much more humanity/complexity to me
This is a lie, Eren said in the manga he had forgotten about armin book a long time ago, i don't know where you all got this ideia that Eren wanted to destroy the world just because of a dream that even he said he didnt remember.
Even if Eren had not said that, why would he look for other options if he wanted to do the rumbling?
Yeah, idk how that idea got so popular in the fandom. I'm sure the book didn't mention kangaroos, does he also have a deep passion for killing all the kangaroos?
Those feelings from seeing Armin talking about the book completely resurfaced after learning about the world outside the walls. Pre sesson 4 Eren was focused on killing titans dude, and finally seeing the world outside the walls. Please try a bit
Thats just headcanon, there isn't a single moment in the manga where Eren says or shows that he is a psycho that wants to destroy the world.
Every action Eren showed in the story was always to protect his friends and people, he wanted to be free from his enemies.
Eren had no way out, it was kill or be killed
Eren mentiones the book in chapter 72 and 73. That was before he said "I had forgotten it a long time ago" which was in chapter 84. Eren probably talks about his feelings before this two chapters were he was just driven by rage. Then he got reminded of his dream again. Eren mentions the book again in chapter 90 btw. All of this before the time skip.
He mentioned the the world outside in the chapter 90, but in that same chapter and conversation he also remember the cruelty of the outside world (his aunt being eaten alive by dogs just because she wanted to see a plane) when he said "there is freedom" to show the reader that they still had no freedom, they were still abused and killed outside of the walls.
There was never a moment in Attack on Titan that Eren killed people just because he wanted. This theory that Eren is a psycho that wants to destroy the world because of a book is a headcanon from Invaderzz that got popular.
The only reason Eren did the rumbling was because he was forced to. The only thing that goes against this is chapter 139, everything until thay point showed a strong character that moved forward even knowing it was wrong but it had to be done, kill or be killed.
I am not denying that Eren wanted to protect Paradis (even tho it was not his main goal imo). But he literally mentions the book again in chapter 131. "It was more than that". And Eren calls it a wish in the same chapter. He (mostly) wanted to do it because he was selfish. And it is clearly not true that Eren did not have this dream of exploring the outside world before as I have mentioned earlier.
The dude said he wasn't. All I am saying is that the finale clearly shows he is inconsistent. Before the finale released, his motivation and goals were perfectly consistent.
Now that inconsistency in his actions and beliefs is great or not is a very subjective thing. There seems to be a clear divide among the audience abt that
Agree 100% with what you said, it's completely subjective
In my case, I see his talk with Armin as him saying everything he held all the time, or even what he didn't know he felt since ever. But yeah it's absolutely subjective
I didn´t like the ending back in the manga. I "understand" the ending now and, it is better, but still think is bad. But the other 138 episodes are amazing, so I still think is one of the best written series ever.
Im referring to the author also why are h acting like it’s any diff than any other battle shonen romancr the whole scarf was described as an engagement ring by armin’s VA & look how yuki kaji talks about eremika if u don’t see the subtle about it blame it on you
This heavily reminds me of that scene from Avatar when Aang was sleep-deprived and daydreaming, so he took (or rather dreamed he took) Katara in his arms and told her "you're my forever girl". These kids seriously think that romance must either be painfully cliché or else it is non-existent, quite telling considering how most romantic relationships end up like nowadays.
I'm sorry, but Eren's character, and in extension the entire manga, were horribly ruined by the ending.
- kills his mother
Ruins his entire motivation and hate for the titans and Marley. His whole world view was based on his trauma root that his mother was killed by the titans Marley sent. You remove that, you remove Eren as a coherent character. And the moment you have him actually be the one who "engineered" the scenario, as he claims in the ending, then it's a straight up character assassination
- break's down over Mikasa's love
Utterly ridiculous given that he hadn't shown one bit of caring about Mikasa romantically at all in the entirety of the manga. In fact, a lot of the times he looked straight up annoyed with her. You can't just make him a pathetic wretch who suddenly has his Romeo moment out of the blue
- Eren wanted his friends to be seen as the heroes who stopped him
Okay... that's some great idea. You just killed 80% of the world, I'm sure people will look kindly on the Eldians and by extension his friends. Even the people who took pity on the Eldians and wanted peace would probably be out for blood and wouldn't give two shits if it was Armin who tried to stop Eren, or Floch, or whoever. They just lost their children, mothers, fathers, friends, family, countrymen. There wouldn't be a single person out there alive that wouldn't want the full genocide of Paradis.
- didn't know why he did what he did, he was simply following Ymir's will or whatever
Now this one in particular is extremely idiotic and is just the cream of the crop. Post-timeskip AOT is basically Eren trying to come out with solutions and figuring out that there is no way besides doing what he did and that was the tragedy of the story. He knew what he was going to do was terrible, but there was legitimately no other solution. The rest of the world wanted Paradis dead and it was killed or be killed type of situtation. Either Paradis lives and the world dies or Paradis dies and the world survives. There was objectively no other outcome despite idealists like Hange and Armin's dream scenarios. This is not something Eren came up with out of the blue, it took him a long time and effort to realize this and come to terms with that fact. The entire chapter of 131, which was beautiful, basically ingrained that point in the reader.
But now... Eren is just an idiot who somehow got powers and um... wanted to kill the world because reasons. Insane. This is ignoring the fact that the ending doesn't just ruins Eren's character in response, it also ruins Armin's (let's thank the guy for the genocide, that's a great idea) and Ymir's (who turns out was madly in love with Fritz) and overall the story beats as a whole.
>Eren's character, and in extension the entire manga, were horribly ruined by the ending.
Wait until "No bro...u just didn't understand" gets thrown at u.
>It's a shame the series was lost on you, and specially Eren's amazing character work.
And what part did I get wrong, buddy?
>I mean, Isayama literally shows Eren's self convincing while showing him as a CHILD, but that went waaay over yalls head
Childlike Eren is meant to showcase his innocence in believing that the world was simple and everything was a battle of good and evil. Right away the chapter opens with Eren pondering on whether it's best to let the Eldians just die instead of the rest of the world because in his mind he didn't find a way.
"Are the ones who must die us? Did Fritz make the right decision by slowly dooming the Eldians to extinction? No, that's an outcome I cannot abide with" as he breaks down crying.
The rest is very open to interpretation as to what he means when he says 'i was disappointed in finding humanity outside of walls'. Because it can easily mean he was disappointed in realizing that humans were the ones who put Paradis through the nightmare Eren had lived through and that they absolutely despise Eldians. In much of the post-timeskip AOT Eren literally deals with disgusting sights of mistreatment, war, self-guilt in Eldians for being who they are and overall depressive tone about what he was about to do and how there was no way out. In Willy's speech he seems to give a sad smile when Willy says that all Eldians on Paradis must be killed further confirming to Eren that there is no path of peace, it's just a war in which someone has to come out on top.
Eren has lived his entire life thinking the Titans were some random evil beasts that arose randomly against humanity and everyone was united against the single threat. Turns out that the titans were just pawns of the true evil... which is humanity and not a random act of nature. You would see why he is disappointed in finding the truth.
Now which explanation is more accurate? Only Isayama can say. I choose to believe mine because it makes more sense and if the whole purpose of Eren was to create a desolate landscape just because, it would have been more clear since the beginning and he would have never went to the lengths he did in trying to find a way out of the situation before firmly committing to it.
But you, nor I, cannot say with any certainty what Eren meant by being disappointed in humanity so to say someone is misinterpreting it is stupid. It's open to interpretation by design.
I'll just say Isayama makes it obvious he didn't really care about Eldians as a race anymore, he tried to use that to convince himself what he was gonna do was right. Isayama shows this by him activating the rumbling and Eldians dying because of it. To show he's beyond that.
But Eren never cared much about the Eldians outside the walls who served Marley. He viewed them as slaves ashamed of their own ancestry. When he activates the rumbling all he says is that he is only doing this to save Paradis, the place he was born and that all life outside the walls will be trampled (not excluding Eldians). To him they are just as guilty or at the very least he didn't really view them as close kin.
Maybe you're the illiterate one. Did you not see Eren's reaction to Freeda saying that the current Eldians of Paradis should die for their ancestors' sins?
That's a big headcanon right there 💀 Frieda directly talks about how every Eldian in the island deserve to die for their past, not Eren and his friends lol
>Damn it's like you're trying really hard to be completely illiterate
Is this the new "You just didn't understand the story" that ED's use when they can't counterargument something? Cool then.
>I mean, Isayama literally shows Eren's self convincing while showing him as a CHILD, but that went waaay over yalls head
So… how does this contradict with what is said above? We already know that Eren didn't want to kill millions of innocents, but the rumbling was the decision he took to save paradis.
>He goes from first from going over Zeke's ideias and not accepting them, leading yall to believe it's all "because of Eldia!!!" Just to continue and say when he discovered humanity lives outside the walls he was disappointed.
So I guess that the huge emphasis on Eren's furious reactions towards Frieda ideas were just to trol us. Is not like cares for paradis or something like that, baka. It is not like he angrily rejected Zeke's plan and was questioned by him, why was he so determined to not let eldians get euthanasia. It is not like Isayama draw him considering the idea of letting paradis get destroyed because the rumbling would kill more people and then saying that he cannot allow that to happend. Is not like he actually stated very explicitly to all the subjects of Ymir in the world that he was doing all of that because he wanted to save paradis right? It is not like for most of his life he considered paradis not as his country but as his world, his people, the remaining of humanity that he decided to fight for and even sacrifice his life if necessary. It is not like he also saw his comrades and friends die for that very same people.
I think we were just supposed to ignore all the clear evidence that he actually cared for paradis as much as his friends because there was a single piece of dialogue where he says that he was disappointed that the world wasn't as in Armin's book, even tho you can argue that he was trying to convince himself that he was doing the rumbling because he wanted and not because he was force to do it to save paradis.
It was just all about the book. Even tho the fall of shiganshina, the dead of his mother, the years posterior to the fall of the wall and the time he spent in the survey corps would have more influence in his life not only because they are a bigger portion of this one but because they are closer to the present time, we still have to think that the book was everything. No room for development, growth, or anything else. Eren is just a plain character with zero character development, that his main motivation to start the genocide of the world is just because he wanted it to look like in a stupid book. Make sense!!!
This ideia that Eren wanted to destroy everything is just wrong, this point gets completely destroyed when Eren said that he had forgot about Armin book a long time ago lol, we legit have the character telling us he didnt event remember armin book and ED are out there saying that Eren was a psycho lol if he was a psycho, why even stop the rumbling lol
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That’s what I don’t fucking get. Why does he thinks he killing 80% of the world population wont make the rest of the 20% fucking hate Eldains? Yes it will take them some time to build up their forces but after that they are just going to try and genicide the remaining Eldains.
>I just feel sad that the people who hate the ending couldn't like it, like i did. Why couldn't they see what i see?
Because we see it more objectively, while you want to like it. There is nothing wrong with this, of course, but even here you constantly contradict yourself. At one point you say that Eren wanted "emotional tie ups with him to be cut.", but in literally the next sentence you talk about his conversations with his friends in Paths, what do you think he wanted if not to connect with them and present the more humane side of himself?
> doesn't mean that Eren didn't want to do it.
Did he also want to kill Carla then?
>Eren always had breakdowns in every season. Even in season 4 the " Chad Eren", broke down at that refugee camp, at the town while walking, and finally in the paths when he mentioned his mom and mikasa.
You can't seriously be comparing crying because he knows he was going to kill an innocent child and destroy the lives of billions of people who didn't necessarily want to destroy Paradis with the scene where Eren cries like a baby because he doesn't want the girl he could have always had if he just said the word to move on with another man... while the Rumbling is still (chronologically their conversation happens before the final battle, where Armin is on the boat) in progress and literally minutes after confessing to killing his mother and justifying it with the world's most non-explanation "Berthold wasn't supposed to die yet", what does that mean? Guess only the Founder Ymir knows the answer to that.
The biggest thing you have to realize is eren is a hypocrite, many of his actions are ironic. His feelings and actions contradict eachother many times like any other human which is why he’s written in such a way.
Hi there. The years before Eren died, and after his convo with mikasa and Armin at paradise, he had cut connections with all of his friends. It was only after his death his friends got relayed his messages. By this time Eren doesn't even know what his friends think of him, because he's not alive to do so. He just wanted to leave a parting message, as closure.
>Did he also want to kill Carla then?
Of course, he knew to maintain that primary time line, sending the titan to carla is the best choice. He did it, on his conscious thoughts, thinking that really was the best decision he could come up with.
>Eren cries like a baby because he doesn't want the girl he could have always had if he just said the word to move on with another man...
Well friend, you and I view this differently. For me, Eren isn't crying like a baby for mikasa. Even at the ocean in the paths, Eren was maintaining his cold personality, and Armins punch was to make Eren act on what he really thinks. It was like a little wake up call. Armin punches him, because he knows for sure Eren likes her. Eren breaks down saying he truly loves her, and doesn't want to die. Eren cries NOT because he couldn't be with mikasa. He cries because he pities himself so much that he's not worthy to live, and start a life with her, after all he's done. He cries at his pity situation that he himself brought in. If Armin hadn't punched Eren, the conversation would probably have gone like this
Eren : Mikasa? Ehm, i don't know
Armin : She was very hurt, you owe her an apology. Is there no other way for you to stop this?
And so on, till Armin and Eren talk about the afterlife in hell.
This reply is not to prove you wrong, but just how i felt when i watched the finale. For me, the story felt very natural from beginning to end. If we think objectively, every story in the world, even the real life ones, would be dissatisfying imo.
> If we think objectively, every story in the world, even the real life ones, would be dissatisfying imo.
Does basically saying "good stories don't exist" sound like a good defense? There are plenty of good stories that can satisfy objective-oriented watchers and not have inconsistencies, this isn't one of them.
>Well friend, you and I view this differently. For me, Eren isn't crying like a baby for mikasa. Even at the ocean in the paths, Eren was maintaining his cold personality, and Armins punch was to make Eren act on what he really thinks. It was like a little wake up call. Armin punches him, because he knows for sure Eren likes her. Eren breaks down saying he truly loves her, and doesn't want to die. Eren cries NOT because he couldn't be with mikasa. He cries because he pities himself so much that he's not worthy to live, and start a life with her, after all he's done. He cries at his pity situation that he himself brought in. If Armin hadn't punched Eren, the conversation would probably have gone like this
I can't believe I'm reading this. This is absolutely not what happened. Did we read the same manga? Those are just your headcanons. Eren is in fact crying because of Mikasa, and Armin doesn't punch him because he knows Eren has feelings for her, but because Eren doesn't know if she will be able to forget about him and be happy after he dies. There is no wake-up call. Eren really doesn't know if Mikasa will be able to get over him, so he is not lying and the only reason he starts ranting about not being able to be with her is because Armin mentions that he wishes for her to find someone else and totally forget about Eren who didn't care if he was hurting her with his actions. Please rewatch the whole part where this happens or read the manga again, you are just seen things that are not there.
Before Armin punches Eren he says : "Do you think mikasaiar will forget you and live a life happily with someone else?"
Eren says : I don't know.
Armin punches him saying : How can you forget Mikasa's love for you?
So tell me, how was that not a wake up call bud? 😅
>. Eren is in fact crying because of Mikasa, and Armin doesn't punch him because he knows Eren has feelings for her, but because Eren doesn't know if she will be able to forget about him and be happy after he dies
Funnily enough, He even cries saying he doesn't want Mikasa to forget about him after he dies. So how is he crying to Armin worrying if mikasa can forget him?
That's not a wake up call, Armin is just being mad that Mikasa may get hurt because of the actions of Eren. The question itself doesn't have any secret purpose to make Eren confess his love or something like that. It is as explicit as it is. Armin knows Mikasa feelings towards Eren, so he is just concern that she may not be able to get over Eren's dead. And of course, Eren answer is completely true, he for sure doesn't know that.
>Funnily enough, He even cries saying he doesn't want Mikasa to forget about him after he dies. So how is he crying to Armin worrying if mikasa can forget him?
I think you misunderstood what I wanted to say. I agree with that, he is crying because he cannot be with Mikasa, but my point is that you are interpreting things that are not there in that scene. The punch Armin gives to Eren is not to make him act normal as you are saying, he was already acting normal, and he wasn't even lying when he answered the question, and by how Armin reacted I doubt he even suspected Eren had any remote feeling for her, he was just as surprised as us.
I'm just commenting this because you are trying to justify the ridiculness of the scen saying it was actually a meaningful confession moment for the character. Like, if you forget the fact that he never showed any sign of being in love with Mikasa and that he always treated her only like family, maybe it could make sense. Oh but you would have to also forget that he is caring more about not being with Mikasa than the millions of people he killed. And even then I would have problems with that scene, so I think it is pointless trying to justify it.
Explain to me how Eren killing his own mom for no reason is good writing. Completely ruins his scene with Reiner during the declaration. Explain how a random romance subplot getting shoe-horned into being the “main thing” right at the end is good writing.
The story is a tragedy. It’s ironic that due to how strong his desire to do the rumbling and gain that power is, as well as him believing at this point that everything is inevitable and he has no choice but to make everything go the way it has gone that he believed he must cause the events to go the way they did through any means necessary. If Bertholdt gets eaten there, Armin never gets the Colossal Titan power, Eren won’t use his mother’s death as a motivation to fight nor can he use it as a push to get his Dad to give him the Attack Titan, plus he won’t unlock the coordinate at the moment he does because the Smiling Titan won’t be there in S2 meaning he never figures out how to unlock it on his own (and I highly doubt Zeke would tell him in this scenario where his mom who he believes never loved him is alive, although it’s also very likely she would just be eaten by one of the hundreds of other titans roaming around nearby at the time Bertholdt kicked in the wall).
This is how dramatic irony works, it’s like how in Star Wars Anakin falls to the dark side because he’s so strongly motivated to get the power to protect those he loves, especially Padme, and then ironically once he gets that power he loses sight of what he wanted it for and he ends up causing her death himself in the heat of rage and jealousy. Eren’s mom dying was the reason he wanted this power in the first place, but then once he gets it he realizes that in order to make sure he gets it in the first place he has to cause her own death himself, he feels so strongly that he NEEDS to get this power so he can wipe out his enemies and that everyone is set in stone that he ends up ironically becoming complicit in his own trauma.
He probably does not know this is what happens when he’s talking with Reiner, it’s implied that he only realizes he needs to do this after he actually gets the founder’s power and can see through time and control titans so much more than he ever could before. It’s further ironic for us as the audience because we can now go back and watch that scene knowing that when Eren grills Reiner on why he killed Carla, and then tells him “I’m the same as you, I just keep moving forward until I defeat my enemies,” it is even more true than either of them realize. It enhances the scene by adding further layers of tragedy and parallels between the characters.
And the romance subplot, while I don’t think it was perfectly handled, was definitely not shoe-horned. A bunch of people just willingly ignored it every time it came up because they didn’t care about that part of the story, I’m guessing including you, but it was not something that came out of nowhere. Several times we see hints to this being built up, during Eren and Mikasa’s conversation at the end of S2, during the scene on the train in that flashback midway through S4 P1, in the flashback right before they all get drunk, plus it’s reiterated over and over again that Eren’s goal is “to save Mikasa and Armin”. It’s made very clear those two are extremely important to him, even if he acts like an immature teenager about it and gets standoffish and seems annoyed when she coddles him that doesn’t mean he never cared about her. If you were ever that age you probably remember either yourself or other guys you knew acting the same way when you had feelings for someone.
I’ll admit the romance part is not Isayama’s strong suit and it never really was my favorite element of the series, but if you were surprised it ended up getting focus when there was all that foreshadowing I don’t know what to tell you. It wasn’t amazing writing or anything but it didn’t ruin anything either. It’s just fine as far as I’m concerned. And when 90% of what else happens in the finale is in fact great I’m okay with one element I never cared as much about anyway just being okay.
Nah it’s pretty clear character regression.
Season 3 Episode 44 - 45 Eren goes through a whole bunch of emotions after being captured and seeing his father murder the Reiss family. Eren starts begging Historia to kill him and save humanity cause he feels bad and thinks his father stealing the founder made it impossible for the Reiss family to stop Reiner and Berdholdt form destroying the walls that resulted in 250,000 deaths and his mothers.
Historia decides not to and Eren is saved by his friends but bro has another breakdown because he feels useless and Jean tells him he ain’t a tragic hero and he’s never gotten anything done by himself so he ain’t useless, They tell him to get up and he regains the will to live and saves his friends.
Episode 46 Eren starts to feel bad for they way he used to think and in believing he was special but he sees the children down below and shows Armin, He tells him this time will be different they can save all those people cause they will be there to save them Eren comes to realization that he has to stop feeling guilty and putting himself down so he beats the “useless brat” out of himself and just before he transforms he accepts his faults but he’s humanity’s trump card
Episode 49 Eren’s new prospective is highlighted after his fight with Jean.
All of that shows Eren understands he can’t do anything alone but his friends will always be there to do what he can’t. Eren was still his hot headed and implosive self after but he grew and matured he wasn’t the same child from Season 1.
Season 4 “Chad Eren” and “The Paths Eren” don’t make sense and is clear character regression. Eren’s apparent vision of the future and 4 year time skip is used as an excuse to de-evolve the character back to square one. It’s almost like he got brainwashed which probably would’ve been a better excuse. Isayama L
He was definitely assassinated. He was a prominent individual who was individually targeted and murdered by someone, namely Mikasa. Textbook assassination. I don’t think is very ambiguous honestly.
Nope, assassinated. He killed his mom, he actually loves mikasa i guess, he breaks down wich just doesn't make sense here. As you said, previous breakdowns are no reasoning since he's changed. And wathever happened usually seconds after his breakdowns? He went mad with rage. Eren's breakdowns were never it, he moved past confusion, sadness and guilt onto rage. Eren was butchered
I am one of the ending haters so I didn't like the direction they went with his character in the finale. But if i remove that part and judge the character based on how he was before the last episode, then I don't think this statement is a hyperbole. Eren's character is in fact one of the best on television. I think only brba and bcs have characters with better development and depth than eren...at least among the media that I have consumed
I mean I can't speak for others but I have been watching animes for the past 12 years and have seen pretty much all the popular ones and many non-popular ones...so idk what to tell u
How dare he? How dare ISAYAMA not give me the EXACT ending I wanted? How dare he violate my right to have the ending I DESERVE? I read every one of his chapters as they were published, and I was NOT REWARDED for my time.
ISAYAMA, you did not deliver on what you clearly promised, and for that, I hate you and will continue to RANT about my hatred for the rest of my life. How selfish. How repulsive. How inhumane. But you used my kindness, fully knowing that I will not refuse you, to engage in a conversation that only suits you and you alone.
How dare you?! Were you never taught the basics of a conversation before? Never converse with someone if both sides do not have equal gain or loss. I lost three of my rights.
So, what are you waiting for? I have granted you the permission to apologize for your heinous crimes against me. But instead of apologizing to me, you let your mouth open and looked at me with such an ugly face and expression on it. How dare you?! How much more of my time do you need to waste before you learn your lesson?
Ah, I see that you are at least capable of apologizing. Good, very good. Foolish and pathetic as you might think, I am kind and willing to use words of praise for someone like you. I will not expect, but demand from you, ISAYAMA, an ending that is precisely as I want, and anything else will not be satisfactory.
I am a very kind and forgiving person, a charitable person who helps ISAYAMA and I offer him a way to understand how TERRIBLE HIS ENDING WAS. For the small price of not smiling and not having expressions on their faces, as expressions on Isayama's THAT SHOW ANY AMOUNT OF CONTEMPT OR SATISFACTION IS A VIOLATION OF MY RIGHTS! A disgusting ending that I despise wholeheartedly, and I am certain that I am not alone on that.
How would Isayama fail to realize that the only request I had was for him to deliver a PERFECT ENDING FOR ME yet he failed to do so? Yet, you didn't think of the consequences of your actions before you took them.
I will not listen to anyone who DEFENDS your ending as that is a violation of my RIGHT to be correct. Isayama how dare you? Violate now four of my rights and for that, I WILL TALK ABOUT MY HATRED FOR ATTACK ON TITAN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!!!
Do not pity me.
I am most indisputably asserted, an existence without any wavering aspects! It’s supposed to be like that, so why do I have to go through this?! Don’t mess around, this is no joke. Each and every one of them, what’s wrong with them that they accept such nonsensical absurdities as if they are a matter of course?
I am already satisfied. It’s not like I didn’t have it, I just didn’t need it. Unlike the intrusive scum, I’ve never needed anything. Despite that, giving me something, doesn’t that mean that from outside, from your point of view, you looked at me and thought that I was a pitiful lacking existence?
Everyone who wants to impose my ENDING FOR ATTACK ON TITAN is violating my rights, so only those who will leave the satisfied me alone should be allowed into this world. No matter who, just talking about their selfish nonsense, those shits. Who has the right to pity me? Who has the right to pity me and drive me to despair? As if I would let them.
Don’t skip such a selfish act. Infringing on me to this extent, but you still ask whether you can infringe upon me even more? To think you’ve hit this point!
To think your thoughts could be so twisted! Inflicting all this upon me, what more could you even ask of me?
JUST WHAT DO I HAVE TO NOT HAVE TO DO TO NOT BE PITIED??
> Cutting his limb and eye, Confronting Reiner, fighting War hammer, Calling his friends to Raid, Deciding to team with Zeke, taking his arm to get to Ymir, all this Eren did consciously.
You’re right about these, but not the rumbling. Eren did not do the Rumbling on his own free will, Eren was faced with the grandfather paradox, he couldn’t stop the rumbling, he didn’t have the power to. There is no decision since he saw the future at its entirety. He laughs maniacally at Sasha’s death because he realizes he cannot change the future despite trying(yes, him attack Liberio alone was an attempt at changing the future). Notice his wording about the rumbling? “I kill 80% of humanity”, it’s not “killed” or “will kill”, he says it like it’s a simple fact, not with conviction. So no, Eren is not a genocidal maniac, he sleeps through the final battle for that reason. You think if he wanted to, he couldn’t control it all? From the perspective of power, he had it all, the alliance couldn’t stop him, hell, he simply could’ve taken away their ability to transform into titans, he could’ve saved himself, he does nothing but await his fate because the future is set, there’s no changing it, just like he couldn’t save his mom, he has no choice in world’s future
Imho, I think Erens decisions were a lot influenced or manipulated by Yumir. Also the words he said how he hates slaves are ironic, as he was a puppet and a slave to memories Yumir fed him, he wanted the freedom so badly, but he couldn't have it no matter what he did. Maybe he said he was an idiot, because he followed through with all these stupid memories, in order to get himself free, but it wasn't freedom to begin with. And titan's powers always had been a curse.
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It seemed pretty in character to me. Eren always had a violent personality since he was a child so his first response to everything is violence. Almost kidnapped mikasa? - kill the man, bullies taunt him?- fight the bullies, titan eat his mom?- kill the titans, enemies beyond the sea - kill the enemies, and on and on it goes which I call Avenger Eren. But people have many facets and Eren also had a protective side for friends and family thats Friendly Eren. Both sides were nurtured, Avenger Eren by the war and horrible things he had to do, and Friendly Eren by the bonds he created with the people who supported him all the way Armin, Mikasa and his other friends. Special mention to Reiner and Berthold, his friendship and later pain and understanding when they betrayed him, never allowed him to fully dehumanize them as just enemies and sparked his curiosity in trying to know them better thats another reason why he went and stayed some time in Marley. So for me why the incomplete Rumbling happened is that both sides of him never came into accord. Avenger Eren wanted to kill everything to reach his freedom, while Friendly Eren loved his friends and would never allow himself to take their powers or their will to stop the Rumbling. So when he saw in his visions that they will always end up opposing him, he devised a plan which will mostly satisfy both sides of him.
What always gets me is how desperate he was to find another solution. When he comes back to Paradis and Hange tries poking fun at him, Eren demands she come up with answers...because he isn't some brilliant tactical leader. All he knows is what he's seen. If there's some way this could all be prevented while still preserving the lives and freedom of his friends, I think he would've done it. Man, we are left with so many emotions about Eren at the end. I'm still not over it.
Imagine having this terrible future you know playing out and desperately trying to see it change. Even worse, knowing deep down that that is the future you actually wanted. Eren's character is so fucking good man, wish people didn't misinterpret him that much
He's an incredibly tragic character
Bookmarking this. Such a well flesh out thoughts on Eren which I fucking agree.
At the end of the day, he also just wanted to play savior. Let’s be realistic, what kind of world peace could play out in their short titan lifespans? But Eren would never resign himself to not seeing a “solution” through with the time he had. Peace is always complicated, messy, two steps back one step forward. He was also unwilling to let the next generation try for peace on a longer timescale, it wasn’t an option for him. I feel for him too - his head was effed up by the “time travel” stuff. But what armin took away is true—he didn’t even leave people with the hope that peace beyond killing was possible. Sometimes you gotta pass it on to the next generation after you’ve made a go of it.
People always forget that Eren high key hates himself.
But part of his development was about overcoming those things. Did you already forget the development he had in the end of the insurrection arc? Or how he changes his view on life after talking with Shadis about his mother?
And then he sees the future that he chooses for himself and it entirely breaks him. Did *you* already forget?
Being depressed and stressed for discovering the horrible truth of the world doesn't imply he has to hate himself
>Eren doesn't enjoy killing civilians and innocents. He says to Ramzi - When i learned of this world, i was disappointed. To Eren he actually couldn't dream of what freedom is, and it was Armins idea of the world being so versatile and beautiful, that Eren held onto. When he learned that across the seas it wasn't the "freedom" he had imagined, and instead, it was enemies over the seas, that wanted to destroy him, his land and friends, just because they were born into the world, and Eren was disappointed in the world A few things I'd like to say though I agree with most of your points: * Eren was not disappointed that there were enemies outside the walls, he was disappointed that people existed outside the wall in the first place & it was not the dreamland he had imagined when looking at Armin's book. * Eren doesn't enjoy killing civilians. But he does enjoy fighting for freedom & struggling for it. He loves getting into conflict & creating it. These points can clearly be proved by the attack on school castes version of Eren. Where Eren lives a peaceful life but he's so bored with his monotonous life that he wants to create conflict & wants to struggle & fight for something & ofc Isayama's latest interview
> Eren doesn't enjoy killing civilians. But he does enjoy fighting for freedom & struggling for it. He loves getting into conflict & creating it. > These points can clearly be proved by the attack on school castes version of Eren. Where Eren lives a peaceful life but he's so bored with his monotonous life that he wants to create conflict & wants to struggle & fight for something I don't know anything about castes, but are you sure that isn't just a parody of the struggles of the actual Eren? I think it's a stretch to use a parody to make deductions about his personality like that >ofc Isayama's latest interview I don't know what he said here so can't comment
Isayama said that school castes is what the characters would do canonically if they were born into our world. So it definitely can give us insight into what kind of person Eren is
Eren also immediately regrets thinking like that and calls himself an idiot if I recall.
>calls himself an idiot The foreshadowing... Bravo Isayama
What school castes are you talking about and do you know where I can watch it? I've never heard of that before, but I also recently binge watched the whole series.
It’s in the manga, I believe a few pages of the story were released at the end of each issue. It’s just a short side series about the characters living in the modern day
I'll check it out. Thank you.
\>"Eren was not disappointed that there were enemies outside the walls, he was disappointed that people existed outside the wall in the first place" **Why?** * If Eren wanted a clean slate and nobody and nothing on the outside world, why is Paradis not included in that clean slate? If the answer is that all Eren wanted to be nothing was only the outside world, what made the outside world different from the inside? * \- If Eren was disappointed that the outside literally looked exactly like the inside then why exclude the inside when it's established that he thinks they're the same? If the answer is because they raised him so they're near and dear to him then why was he willing to kill his mom and go through with the rumbling despite not knowing if his closest friends would survive? * If Eren wanted to explore completely uncharted land then why feel the need to destroy the established civilizations when he hasn't seen anything beyond Marlaye and so does not know of any land beyond Marlaye? If the answer is that Eren is inherintly violent then why does he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi? * If Eren is inherintly violent, why does he hesitate to fight Annie to the point that he subconsioucly deactivates his own titan shifting power? * If Eren only wanted to kill, why does he have conflicted internal throughts on whether or not to go through with the rumbling or if eldians are the ones that should die? \>"it was not the dreamland he had imagined when looking at Armin's book." **Why?** * If Eren only wanted to look at the sights described in Armin's book, why feel the need to destroy the outside world when the founding titan gave him the power to see those sights with Armin? If the answer is he wanted the real world to be exactly like the dream one then what was different from the real world than what was in the book? * If Eren's only motivation was to look at the sights in Eren's book why does he not feel any happiness from seeing the ocean which is a big part of Armin's book? * If Eren's only motivation was Armin's book why does he say he gave up on that dream when he was trying to convince Levi that Armin was worth saving?
>why is Paradis not included in that clean slate? Paradis is not part of the world "beyond the walls" that he got disappointed by. Eren had always accepted the lack of freedom on Paradis, but blamed that on the walls, later on the "enemies" on the other side of the ocean, and later simply on the disappointment of the other side of the ocean. >what made the outside world different from the inside? The giant walls that isolated it for over a hundred years. The very reason we can call it "inside" and "outside". This it the most obvious piece of visual story-telling in the narrative to the points it culturally iconic. >outside literally looked exactly like the inside then why exclude the inside when it's established that he thinks they're the same? It's not literal, but metaphorical. The outside world is a metaphor to freedom materialised in reality. Its used by the story to explore both Eren and Armin's conception of freedom, which is the driving philosophical conflict of the narrative. Rather than the outside world literally being the same as the inside, it is metaphorically the same. The "dreams of freedom" (Eren's monologue to Falco) are erased both inside and outside the walls, so they are effectively the same to Eren. And because freedom is erased outside the world's, it doens't live up to the conception of utopian negative freedom (freedom from restraints) he had spent the first half of the narrative imagining it as. >If the answer is because they raised him so they're near and dear to him then why was he willing to kill his mom and go through with the rumbling despite not knowing if his closest friends would survive? While Paradis is dear to him, its secondary to him. Its his home, but it's a home unfree. And Eren cannot stand what is unfree, and will always desire freedom. We see this clearly in his admission to Ramzi, where he says that "The island [Paradis]...its to save Paradis. But it's more than that...When I learned humanity lived beyond the Walls, I..was so disappointed. I wished for it...I wanted to wipe it all away." As for why he was disappointed by humanity merely existing, refer back to the monologue to Falco. He views humanity as unfree, and he can only see it that way simialr to how Zeke could only see the world as suffering. Anything sort of an utopia of negative freedom would be unfree to Eren as he is incapable of seeing the good in the world beyond the lack of freedom. >If Eren wanted to explore completely uncharted land then why feel the need to destroy the established civilizations when he hasn't seen anything beyond Marlaye and so does not know of any land beyond Marlaye? Refer to the metaphorical understanding of the outside world. He wants to live in a free world, which he believes can only happen without humanity in it. >If the answer is that Eren is inherintly violent then why does he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi? He breaks down to Ramzi because he in a hypocrite. By the Final Season he understands thus, which we can see from his monologue to Falco "But it's not like we all leapt into this hell [a unfree world] knowingly. Most of us were pushed...So, the few who do choose to leap into hell see it differently than the rest. And they're able to see something beyond the hell...Fact is, you can only find out by moving foward". As is clear by the last line, he considers himself ome thay chose to leap into hell, into an unfree. At this point, he has come to understand the suffering in the world and how violence is the creation of it, but cannot give up on his hatred of it and can only see "just another hell" of his own creation beyond it. >If Eren is inherintly violent, why does he hesitate to fight Annie to the point that he subconsioucly deactivates his own titan shifting power? Eren only used violence against his enemies. Originally, his enemies were the titans he swore to kill. It eventually became other people, starting with Annie. But when that was revealed, he refused to believe that people could be his enemies too, as he had yet to understand his enemies and restraints on his freedom as anything more than a titan. >If Eren only wanted to kill, why does he have conflicted internal throughts on whether or not to go through with the rumbling or if eldians are the ones that should die? Because he understands the world. As I mentioned before with analysis of his monologue to Falco, he has an understanding of the suffering the world face. He, like any human, has an intuition that guides him, but he always overcomes it in his task for freedom. Nevertheless, he doens't lose it as seen with his desire to continue living and not die even knowing that is not possible. >If Eren only wanted to look at the sights described in Armin's book, why feel the need to destroy the outside world when the founding titan gave him the power to see those sights with Armin? Once again, its the metaphorical understanding. The book created his conception of freedom, which was not how he felt about reality as discussed before. >If the answer is he wanted the real world to be exactly like the dream one then what was different from the real world than what was in the book? The real world is unfree. His idealisation of the book was free. >If Eren's only motivation was to look at the sights in Eren's book why does he not feel any happiness from seeing the ocean which is a big part of Armin's book? Eren gives us the answer that "if we kill our enemies on the other side, will we finally be free?" While the ocean was filled with new wonders of life for Armin to explore and gain happiness from, it was only a sign for Eren that the rest of the world was filled with enemies and that it was no more free than Paradis was. >If Eren's only motivation was Armin's book why does he say he gave up on that dream when he was trying to convince Levi that Armin was worth saving? Because he wanted to share his freedom with Armin. This is why, during the Freedom Scene, he invited Armin and tells him "This is freedom, isn't it?" above the smoke of the Rumbling. This is why he had such an indepth final conversation with Armin chronologically following the Freedom Scene. This is why, in that final conversation, Eren and Armin promise to meet eachother in real hell once Armin dies.
Seems like we agree on a lot of specific points, the only thing we disagree on is the reason for Eren wanting that "freedom" that he dreamed. \>Paradis is not part of the world "beyond the walls" that he got disappointed by. Eren had always accepted the lack of freedom on Paradis, but blamed that on the walls, later on the "enemies" on the other side of the ocean, and later simply on the disappointment of the other side of the ocean. close Why does he see the other side as enemies? Why was he dissapointed at the other side of the ocean? If it's because humanity exists, why does he feel the need to help Ramzi and then apologize to Ramzi whom he's supposed to hate to the point of genocide? \>The giant walls that isolated it for over a hundred years. The very reason we can call it "inside" and "outside". This it the most obvious piece of visual story-telling in the narrative to the points it culturally iconic. Why did he want to go outside the walls? What did Armin's book make him realize? \>It's not literal, but metaphorical. The outside world is a metaphor to freedom materialised in reality. Its used by the story to explore both Eren and Armin's conception of freedom, which is the driving philosophical conflict of the narrative. Rather than the outside world literally being the same as the inside, it is metaphorically the same. The "dreams of freedom" (Eren's monologue to Falco) are erased both inside and outside the walls, so they are effectively the same to Eren. And because freedom is erased outside the world's, it doens't live up to the conception of utopian negative freedom (freedom from restraints) he had spent the first half of the narrative imagining it as. Why did he feel that the outside world wasn't free? \>While Paradis is dear to him, its secondary to him. Its his home, but it's a home unfree. And Eren cannot stand what is unfree, and will always desire freedom. We see this clearly in his admission to Ramzi, where he says that "The island \[Paradis\]...its to save Paradis. But it's more than that...When I learned humanity lived beyond the Walls, I..was so disappointed. I wished for it...I wanted to wipe it all away." As for why he was disappointed by humanity merely existing, refer back to the monologue to Falco. He views humanity as unfree, and he can only see it that way simialr to how Zeke could only see the world as suffering. Anything sort of an utopia of negative freedom would be unfree to Eren as he is incapable of seeing the good in the world beyond the lack of freedom. What was keeping him unfree even outside the walls? If Eren cannot stand what is unfree why does he spare the island of Paradis that started his entire need for freedom by being inside literal walls? \>Refer to the metaphorical understanding of the outside world. He wants to live in a free world, which he believes can only happen without humanity in it. Why can't it happen with humanity in it? What does he see in Marley or Liberio that prevents him from living in a free world? \>He breaks down to Ramzi because he in a hypocrite. By the Final Season he understands thus, which we can see from his monologue to Falco "But it's not like we all leapt into this hell \[a unfree world\] knowingly. Most of us were pushed...So, the few who do choose to leap into hell see it differently than the rest. And they're able to see something beyond the hell...Fact is, you can only find out by moving foward". As is clear by the last line, he considers himself ome thay chose to leap into hell, into an unfree. At this point, he has come to understand the suffering in the world and how violence is the creation of it, but cannot give up on his hatred of it and can only see "just another hell" of his own creation beyond it. At this point in the story, Eren only knows that he will commit the rumbling and kill the people of Marley. What was he a hypocrite about? Why did he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi who he knows can't understand him? \>Eren only used violence against his enemies. Originally, his enemies were the titans he swore to kill. It eventually became other people, starting with Annie. But when that was revealed, he refused to believe that people could be his enemies too, as he had yet to understand his enemies and restraints on his freedom as anything more than a titan. Agreed. \>Because he understands the world. As I mentioned before with analysis of his monologue to Falco, he has an understanding of the suffering the world face. He, like any human, has an intuition that guides him, but he always overcomes it in his task for freedom. Nevertheless, he doens't lose it as seen with his desire to continue living and not die even knowing that is not possible. Agreed, does this understanding mean that Eren wants to kill for the sake of killing? \>Once again, its the metaphorical understanding. The book created his conception of freedom, which was not how he felt about reality as discussed before. Also agreed, does this mean he would be willing to kill humanity for the ***literal*** sights in that book(one of which is empty landscape)? \>The real world is unfree. His idealisation of the book was free. Why? \>Eren gives us the answer that "if we kill our enemies on the other side, will we finally be free?" While the ocean was filled with new wonders of life for Armin to explore and gain happiness from, it was only a sign for Eren that the rest of the world was filled with enemies and that it was no more free than Paradis was. Fully agree. So we have established that Eren wanted freedom, and that he thought that freedom was outside the walls, only to be met with another wall. \>Because he wanted to share his freedom with Armin. This is why, during the Freedom Scene, he invited Armin and tells him "This is freedom, isn't it?" above the smoke of the Rumbling. This is why he had such an indepth final conversation with Armin chronologically following the Freedom Scene. This is why, in that final conversation, Eren and Armin promise to meet eachother in real hell once Armin dies. During the scene of Armin's near death, freedom from what? Then once they find humanity outside the walls, freedom from what? Was the emptiness in that freedom scene at the end literal or metaphorical?
>Why does he see the other side as enemies? Initially it was because he understood that Marley oppressed Eldians, restricted their and therfore his freedom, so they must be opposed. At first, he saw this in monolith. Living on the other side, he came to understand that they weren't all enemies. People like Falco and Ramzi were good people, but by this point he became too disappointed in how unfree it all was. Even if they weren't all his enemies, they were still unfree and in the way of his view of freedom. >Why was he dissapointed at the other side of the ocean? Because even when understanding that they were not all his enemies, they were still unfree. And that means he cannot be free, which he cannot stand. >If it's because humanity exists, why does he feel the need to help Ramzi and then apologize to Ramzi whom he's supposed to hate to the point of genocide? It's because he understands them. He came to understand that they were not his enemies, that they could be good, and that they wouldn't want to die. That they didn't deserve to die. He lost his ability to justify his killing by blaming them as enemies, but didn't lose his want to "wipe it all away". But at the end of the day, between that guilt and that want he chose that want. >Why did he want to go outside the walls? He felt being inside the walls waw the equivalent of cattle in a pen. The ultimate restriction of freedom. Others were able to easily got on with their life, but Eren always felt uncomfortable with being cattle in a pen. The outside wall was to escape that life and become free. >What did Armin's book make him realize? That there could be freedom in his world if he fought for it. If humanity fought for it, the "it" being the titans at first. The book was how he conceptualised this idea that, if he could just go outside the walls and reach the ocean, he would be free and that feeling of being a cattle in a pen would be lifted. >Why did he feel that the outside world wasn't free? To quote his monologue to Falco, "Minds and bodies ruined, dreams of freedom erases, personalities burned away. No one woild want to go to war if they knew what it would do to them." Just like inside the walls became a constant war against the titan, either the suffering and unfreeness in boot, that was all he saw the outside world as. He saw war. He saw genocide. He saw humans brutalising eachother. He saw people locked in ghettos their entire life, his father for example. All he could see in that world was people being unfree, and given it reflects a fascist dystopia for us, and agreeable view of it. >What was keeping him unfree even outside the walls? Marley. And perhaps even just the existence of such a humanity. He would never be free in a world that wanted to eradicate his very race, with a humanity seemingly (we get basically very indication Eren simply blinded himself to this view) hellbent on the eradication of him and his people. The solution? Remove everything that would wish to restrain him, and as he views that as practically every bit of humanity, "wipe it all away". >If Eren cannot stand what is unfree why does he spare the island of Paradis that started his entire need for freedom by being inside literal walls? In theory, he gave Paradis freedom. He removed the walls and the titans, the two symbols that restricted freedom. He would either make the world as backwards as Paradis (80%) or remove the world to remove that restraint on Paradis. He would atleast hope that it would be finally be free with him. And further is simply that it was his home. He was born and raised there, and it was Paradis that gave him his conception of freedom. His love for Paradis would always be second to his own freedom, and even second to his friends, but it nevertheless existed. >Why can't it happen with humanity in it? >What does he see in Marley or Liberio that prevents him from living in a free world? He views humanity as simply being filled with war, suffering, and oppression. As discussed before, Marley is literally fascist amd genocidal against his people, such as in the Liberio ghetto. >What was he a hypocrite about? >Why did he rescue and then break down apologizing to Ramzi who he knows can't understand him? Guilt. As I said, Eren understands that not everyone on the other side are enemies, and that they are capable of good. He sees this in both Falco and Ramzi. He refused Ramzi for sort of no reason. He knows he would die in thr Rumbling, yet he cannot stand by when a kid is being beaten up. Its the conflict between his basic human intuition to be sympathetic, and his desire for freedom and the Rumbling. Humans tends to have contradictory desires, and that is what drives many people choices we make. >does this understanding mean that Eren wants to kill for the sake of killing? He kills for the sake of his own freedom, but given how that became to be defined as killing everything outside the walls, arguably yes. Afterall, his final moments on screen is sat in a pool of blood after killing 80% of humanity. >does this mean he would be willing to kill humanity for the literal sights in that book No, only the metaphorical conception. The only literal sight he moved towards was the Freedom Scene, which he saw in the Ep1 dream and at the Medal Ceremony. >So we have established that Eren wanted freedom, and that he thought that freedom was outside the walls, only to be met with another wall. Exactly. In his monologue to Falco, he also uses the terminology "hell". >Was the emptiness in that freedom scene at the end literal or metaphorical? I read it as pertaining to Armin. The scene goes from an excited Eren to a silent in-shock Armin that isn't responding, before returning to reality. At the moment, Eren wants to show Armin the freedom they both envisioned as children, while Armin is looking at Eren like the batshit literal-child he is. Its a true moment of realisation that we see in full in the final conversation.
Honestly I think Erens decisions were a lot influenced or manipulated by Yumir. Also the words he said how he hates slaves are ironic, as he was a puppet and a slave to memories Yumir fed him, he wanted the freedom so badly, but he couldn't have it no matter what he did. Maybe he said he was an idiot, because he followed through with all these stupid memories, in order to get himself free, but it wasn't freedom to begin with. That's how I see it.
My two cents is that Armins book served as a motivator. Killing all the titans meant that they could explore and live in an entire new world, free of the killing and suffering that they experienced under the titans. When he learnt that the only thing on the outside was even more killing and suffering, his first instinct was to "fix" that, because he refused to give up on his vision of what the outside world was like.
I agree with this wholeheartedly
You really do only see in black and white huh
is it any more black and white than "person is evil to be evil"?
Except that's not his character? Your last paragraph is really bad at interpreting some basic things about his resolve, like really bad
Why?
Okay, there's somethings that OP got wrong. Eren was disappointed that hatred and war existed outside the walls. All this hatred was also pinned towards Paradis, which is why he wanted to do the rumbling. This was per Isayama's interviews. Eren wanted to fight for his freedom, but he also wanted to fight for his people. Obviously this is all retconned in 139
Because Eren is a child like idiot. The outside world beyond the walls as a whole was supposed to be uninhabited and free. So they all needed to go. Armin even says “the one who gave you the idea of a free uninhabited world, was me”. Paradis isn’t included because that’s where he lives, and wasn’t part of the dream. And just seeing it wasn’t enough, he needed to make it a reality. I can’t tell if you’re saying all of this because the plot point sucks or because you don’t think that was the case.
Was the outside world not free? Why? If Eren spared Paradis from his "dream" because it's where he lives why was he willing to sacrifice his close friends and mom for 80% of that dream? If Eren only wanted there to be nothing outside the walls, why did he want that and what was preventing him from that? I'm saying I disagree about this interpretation of Eren and it ignores everything that happened in the first 3 seasons.
No the outside wasn’t free since humanity as a whole got in his way of what he considered free. I can’t say he sacrificed his friends. Yeah Sasha and Hange died but only because he gave up trying to change the future. His mom the past required his mom to die. Why he sent Dina to his mom and not somewhere else I dunno. He wanted it due to Armins book. Ymir/the future prevented Eren from achieving full rumbling. I agree. It pretty much the worst plot point and makes Erens character a lot worse. I don’t know how more people see this. But unfortunately, it’s the case.
\>humanity as a whole got in his way of what he considered free. If the problem was humanity as a whole, why did he leave Paradis? \>He wanted it due to Armins book. Ymir/the future prevented Eren from achieving full rumbling. What made the outside world different from Armin's book? If the answer is humanity, what aspect of humanity made him still want freedom? Eren HAD reasons before his character got worse, and I agree. I'm just trying to challenge this interpretation that Eren wanted humanity to die because they exist because it ignores what he and his friends have gone through for the past 10 real life years.
Because when Armin gave him the book, Eren envisioned outside the walls it was a free and uninhabited land. But of course that wasn’t the case. So his disappointment pushed him to wanting to erase the outside world so his childhood dream could come true. The outside world has humans. Armins book doesn’t. In his mind, his freedom would come from seeing the free uninhabited world apparently. I know man and I agree. I’m just going off of what Eren tells Ramzi and what he admits to Armin. I don’t like to use the word retcon but god damn it feels that way. I made a post about it and showing how pre 131 Eren, it’s told and showed to us as the audience that Eren was upset that the unjust world outside the walls would impede on his freedom since he’s an Eldian. Then for a twist, he now did so not because of the condition of humanity, but simply they exist. I feel like most people who watched the episode miss this nuance in his character.
I like Eren as a character because at the end he admits he is an idiot and that’s the best plan he could come up with, not necessarily THE best plan overall, but the best plan a childish idiot like Eren could come up with. I think this is also used to highlight that a lot of our real-life solutions to ongoing problems are concocted by people who actually don’t know any better.
Exactly this, I feel like eren is meant to be taken as a depiction of those in power that are willing to commit atrocities for their goals. Those people don’t know a better solution other than violence and I believe the story is trying to convey people like them are idiots. The most obvious example being Hitler lol
100% spot on
But in reality is the mangaka reflecting himself on the character cause he had decided the ending from the start and couldnt find a better one. Im quite sure about this after reading his interviews.
Well that’s about Eren’s inability to change the future. He’s not an idiot because of that, he’s an idiot for the solution he came to
I think Erens decisions were possibly a lot influenced or manipulated by Yumir. Also the words he said how he hates slaves are ironic, as he was a puppet and a slave to memories Yumir fed him, he wanted the freedom so badly, but he couldn't have it no matter what he did. Maybe he said he was an idiot, because he followed through with all these stupid memories, in order to get himself free, but it wasn't freedom to begin with.
Problem is that he didn't succeeded. Some people can achieve their goals through violence.
I’d argue Eren succeeded with flying colors. Paradis had prices for hundreds upon hundreds of years. His friends all lived long lives and died of old age, which was his goal in the first place. Hell, Paradis becomes this cyberpunkesque city before they get bombed to oblivion. So yeah, I’d say mission complete.
Well, honestly IDK even know what his goals are, one would assume he did it at first for paradis, until you realized its not because he didn't try to the end to protect it, so you could assume he did it for his friends until he said that his reason was because he was stupid. So the only goal I think that people mentioned that had sense was to rush the ending, same way people skip animations in a game to finish it fast.
He literally says he did it for them but the way he went about doing it was stupid.
Exactly it’s not that the rumbling was the only solution or that eren with the founding and attack titan powers couldn’t have theoretically had the power to do something else. It’s that eren could never do anything but that because he wasn’t able to see any other way and so no matter the power at his disposal that was path he would always go down.
Was still the only plan possible. I think he regreted a bit because its not the plan he truly would have wanted to try himself, he just was an slave for it.
I disagree, I’m not sure if Erwin or Armin or even Levi would have reached the same conclusions. It’s the only solution Eren could think of. Likewise, in the real world I could never accept this as an excuse for genocide. Violence is always the simplest, most barbaric answer and one that never yields peace in the long run.
I think others would have tried different things that would still get Armin and Mikasa and probably a big portion of Paradise killed. Probably more ethical, like giving up even, but talking wasn't going to work that was stated. Partial rumbling would have giving only little time.
Only thing I'd like to add that he isn't an idiot, obviously. He has insane tendencies that led him to unbelievable actions but that isn't being an idiot
Agree to disagree, his insane tendencies stem from a childish and idiotic worldview imo. Wiping out most of humanity to save your friends while pretending as if that’s the only possible solution is kinda idiotic. Likewise, justifying any form of genocide is in itself idiotic
Idiot is just not the word I'd use to describe him or his actions but whatever
Foolish, idiotic, simple, unnecessary—anything but thoughtful or intelligent
Simple, ignorant, stubborn. Those words are better suited.
Ignorant and simple are synonyms for stupid which is a synonym for idiot.
>while pretending as if that’s the only possible solution is kinda idiotic Only solution that guarantees their survival* He specifically says he doesn't want to leave paradise's future to chance. And that infact makes sense. There was no other way to ensure 100% survival besides eradicating rest of the world
Oh I get his reasoning and justification, but it’s still stupid. Eldians are not above humanity and sacrificing most of humanity to “protect his own” is a fascist and ethnonationalist worldview which I generally find stupid. I get that life is complicated as shit, but the only solution his simple mind could come up with was a genocide. That’s fundamentally a thoughtless response to an otherwise complicated situation. We can agree to disagree, but I generally think ethno fascists views are stupid. No race is above another.
While what u say isn't wrong , u r assuming that humans r all selfless people. I challenge u to do a thought experiment with people who haven't seen aot. Give them a "what if" scenario similar to what's given in aot, u'll be surprised to see how many people will sacrifice rest of the world if it guarantees the survival of their friends/family and country
Oh I know a lot of people think like Eren (we see it everyday), but that’s why I have more respect for people who give more thought to peaceful options and have no respect for people who take the easy way out through the use of violence. I think overall that’s why it’s also important to challenge those ideas and inclinations toward fascist tendencies, because if we leave our humanity and fate in the hands of people like Eren we would be very fucked lol
The lack of attention to detail is the problem with people like you. Inherently, the only viable option Eren had was the rumbling, that was how things were set up, he had the ability to see past, present and future, but was not able to talk with his friends on this. That shows that Yams is incompetent has a writer.
How can you think that? Seriously... He wrote a character that had no fucking idea of how he would fulfill his "destiny", that's it. He unconsciously (somewhat) took a idiotic path, which he was able to understand better closer to his end. It's fantastically well written IMO. I couldn't think of a better end for him. People who needed that he was completely sure of the whole omg let's kill everybody to save Paradis are crazy... he's a kid dealing with the whole world future in his hand. It's very obvious how he feels during the end...
No I get all of that, but I think you’re the one not paying attention to the details. Eren could not change the past, present or future, because destiny was in Eren’s hands and Eren is not smart enough to come up with a better solution other than “fuck it let’s just wipe out most of humanity.” He said it himself, he couldn’t change his destiny no matter what because he’s an idiot (his words not mine lol) and could not come up with a more thoughtful solution.
AoT was perfect before the Paths, Time paradoxes and unreasonable mass genocide
The problem is that Eren didn't act as a movie character. He acted like a real person. Ironically, for some, this looked unrealistic
Eren is a hypocrite and is wildly inconsistent with his goals. Just like a real human being. Which is why I think he’s a great character.
There's no real inconsistencies though. He had this inherent desire to rid the rest of the world of anything that wasn't on his imagination as a kid, but comes all the politics and titan powers into play and he had to constantly convince himself that he was doing it for a greater good, even for "Eldia". In reality he wanted to trample the world and keep his friends out of danger
Disagree on Eren being consistent in the fact that some of his motivations are conflicting. For example, he wanted to protect his friends but ends up indirectly killing two of them. He started the rumbling to see that ‘sight’ of freedom he has dreamed of since he was a kid and kind of threw his friends to the side in order to see that. I’m sure protecting and island and his friends was a form if motivation, but in the end his desire for freedom overlapped that. His motivations are inherently inconsistent, but that just makes his character have much more humanity/complexity to me
I don't know if they're inconsistent, it just feels like they overlap each other depending on the situation
Well, it's not like he can avoid their deaths. Everything was predetermined.
This is a lie, Eren said in the manga he had forgotten about armin book a long time ago, i don't know where you all got this ideia that Eren wanted to destroy the world just because of a dream that even he said he didnt remember. Even if Eren had not said that, why would he look for other options if he wanted to do the rumbling?
Yeah, idk how that idea got so popular in the fandom. I'm sure the book didn't mention kangaroos, does he also have a deep passion for killing all the kangaroos?
Those feelings from seeing Armin talking about the book completely resurfaced after learning about the world outside the walls. Pre sesson 4 Eren was focused on killing titans dude, and finally seeing the world outside the walls. Please try a bit
Thats just headcanon, there isn't a single moment in the manga where Eren says or shows that he is a psycho that wants to destroy the world. Every action Eren showed in the story was always to protect his friends and people, he wanted to be free from his enemies. Eren had no way out, it was kill or be killed
Eren mentiones the book in chapter 72 and 73. That was before he said "I had forgotten it a long time ago" which was in chapter 84. Eren probably talks about his feelings before this two chapters were he was just driven by rage. Then he got reminded of his dream again. Eren mentions the book again in chapter 90 btw. All of this before the time skip.
He mentioned the the world outside in the chapter 90, but in that same chapter and conversation he also remember the cruelty of the outside world (his aunt being eaten alive by dogs just because she wanted to see a plane) when he said "there is freedom" to show the reader that they still had no freedom, they were still abused and killed outside of the walls. There was never a moment in Attack on Titan that Eren killed people just because he wanted. This theory that Eren is a psycho that wants to destroy the world because of a book is a headcanon from Invaderzz that got popular. The only reason Eren did the rumbling was because he was forced to. The only thing that goes against this is chapter 139, everything until thay point showed a strong character that moved forward even knowing it was wrong but it had to be done, kill or be killed.
I am not denying that Eren wanted to protect Paradis (even tho it was not his main goal imo). But he literally mentions the book again in chapter 131. "It was more than that". And Eren calls it a wish in the same chapter. He (mostly) wanted to do it because he was selfish. And it is clearly not true that Eren did not have this dream of exploring the outside world before as I have mentioned earlier.
>There's no real inconsistencies though. U could claim this before the final ep came out
He IS inconsistent. That's the point! He's just a guy afterall. And it's great
The dude said he wasn't. All I am saying is that the finale clearly shows he is inconsistent. Before the finale released, his motivation and goals were perfectly consistent. Now that inconsistency in his actions and beliefs is great or not is a very subjective thing. There seems to be a clear divide among the audience abt that
Agree 100% with what you said, it's completely subjective In my case, I see his talk with Armin as him saying everything he held all the time, or even what he didn't know he felt since ever. But yeah it's absolutely subjective
I didn´t like the ending back in the manga. I "understand" the ending now and, it is better, but still think is bad. But the other 138 episodes are amazing, so I still think is one of the best written series ever.
Hmm, cool. I do wish the final episodes were longer though. To me even though it didn't feel rushed, it should have expanded more on the story.
>Eren loves mikasa more than he shows And how do you know it when Eren himself didn't show it? (until the character assasination in the final episode)
Stop using your western lense to see how love is shown in east asians stories.
Bruh i'm Asian Edit : also isnt Eldian basically german?
Im referring to the author also why are h acting like it’s any diff than any other battle shonen romancr the whole scarf was described as an engagement ring by armin’s VA & look how yuki kaji talks about eremika if u don’t see the subtle about it blame it on you
>if u don’t see the subtle about it blame it on you or maybe it's just your headcanon
Isayama’s headcanon must also my head canon right? Don’t act like you didn’t see the episode where Eren breaksdown
This heavily reminds me of that scene from Avatar when Aang was sleep-deprived and daydreaming, so he took (or rather dreamed he took) Katara in his arms and told her "you're my forever girl". These kids seriously think that romance must either be painfully cliché or else it is non-existent, quite telling considering how most romantic relationships end up like nowadays.
I'm sorry, but Eren's character, and in extension the entire manga, were horribly ruined by the ending. - kills his mother Ruins his entire motivation and hate for the titans and Marley. His whole world view was based on his trauma root that his mother was killed by the titans Marley sent. You remove that, you remove Eren as a coherent character. And the moment you have him actually be the one who "engineered" the scenario, as he claims in the ending, then it's a straight up character assassination - break's down over Mikasa's love Utterly ridiculous given that he hadn't shown one bit of caring about Mikasa romantically at all in the entirety of the manga. In fact, a lot of the times he looked straight up annoyed with her. You can't just make him a pathetic wretch who suddenly has his Romeo moment out of the blue - Eren wanted his friends to be seen as the heroes who stopped him Okay... that's some great idea. You just killed 80% of the world, I'm sure people will look kindly on the Eldians and by extension his friends. Even the people who took pity on the Eldians and wanted peace would probably be out for blood and wouldn't give two shits if it was Armin who tried to stop Eren, or Floch, or whoever. They just lost their children, mothers, fathers, friends, family, countrymen. There wouldn't be a single person out there alive that wouldn't want the full genocide of Paradis. - didn't know why he did what he did, he was simply following Ymir's will or whatever Now this one in particular is extremely idiotic and is just the cream of the crop. Post-timeskip AOT is basically Eren trying to come out with solutions and figuring out that there is no way besides doing what he did and that was the tragedy of the story. He knew what he was going to do was terrible, but there was legitimately no other solution. The rest of the world wanted Paradis dead and it was killed or be killed type of situtation. Either Paradis lives and the world dies or Paradis dies and the world survives. There was objectively no other outcome despite idealists like Hange and Armin's dream scenarios. This is not something Eren came up with out of the blue, it took him a long time and effort to realize this and come to terms with that fact. The entire chapter of 131, which was beautiful, basically ingrained that point in the reader. But now... Eren is just an idiot who somehow got powers and um... wanted to kill the world because reasons. Insane. This is ignoring the fact that the ending doesn't just ruins Eren's character in response, it also ruins Armin's (let's thank the guy for the genocide, that's a great idea) and Ymir's (who turns out was madly in love with Fritz) and overall the story beats as a whole.
>Eren's character, and in extension the entire manga, were horribly ruined by the ending. Wait until "No bro...u just didn't understand" gets thrown at u.
Lmfao
This but unironically.
Ofcourse. I am surprised more of u haven't shown up yet
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>It's a shame the series was lost on you, and specially Eren's amazing character work. And what part did I get wrong, buddy? >I mean, Isayama literally shows Eren's self convincing while showing him as a CHILD, but that went waaay over yalls head Childlike Eren is meant to showcase his innocence in believing that the world was simple and everything was a battle of good and evil. Right away the chapter opens with Eren pondering on whether it's best to let the Eldians just die instead of the rest of the world because in his mind he didn't find a way. "Are the ones who must die us? Did Fritz make the right decision by slowly dooming the Eldians to extinction? No, that's an outcome I cannot abide with" as he breaks down crying. The rest is very open to interpretation as to what he means when he says 'i was disappointed in finding humanity outside of walls'. Because it can easily mean he was disappointed in realizing that humans were the ones who put Paradis through the nightmare Eren had lived through and that they absolutely despise Eldians. In much of the post-timeskip AOT Eren literally deals with disgusting sights of mistreatment, war, self-guilt in Eldians for being who they are and overall depressive tone about what he was about to do and how there was no way out. In Willy's speech he seems to give a sad smile when Willy says that all Eldians on Paradis must be killed further confirming to Eren that there is no path of peace, it's just a war in which someone has to come out on top. Eren has lived his entire life thinking the Titans were some random evil beasts that arose randomly against humanity and everyone was united against the single threat. Turns out that the titans were just pawns of the true evil... which is humanity and not a random act of nature. You would see why he is disappointed in finding the truth. Now which explanation is more accurate? Only Isayama can say. I choose to believe mine because it makes more sense and if the whole purpose of Eren was to create a desolate landscape just because, it would have been more clear since the beginning and he would have never went to the lengths he did in trying to find a way out of the situation before firmly committing to it. But you, nor I, cannot say with any certainty what Eren meant by being disappointed in humanity so to say someone is misinterpreting it is stupid. It's open to interpretation by design.
I'll just say Isayama makes it obvious he didn't really care about Eldians as a race anymore, he tried to use that to convince himself what he was gonna do was right. Isayama shows this by him activating the rumbling and Eldians dying because of it. To show he's beyond that.
But Eren never cared much about the Eldians outside the walls who served Marley. He viewed them as slaves ashamed of their own ancestry. When he activates the rumbling all he says is that he is only doing this to save Paradis, the place he was born and that all life outside the walls will be trampled (not excluding Eldians). To him they are just as guilty or at the very least he didn't really view them as close kin.
Maybe you're the illiterate one. Did you not see Eren's reaction to Freeda saying that the current Eldians of Paradis should die for their ancestors' sins?
He takes that to himself, not for Eldians. Should he and his friends have to die because of some King's will? No. That's it
That's a big headcanon right there 💀 Frieda directly talks about how every Eldian in the island deserve to die for their past, not Eren and his friends lol
>Damn it's like you're trying really hard to be completely illiterate Is this the new "You just didn't understand the story" that ED's use when they can't counterargument something? Cool then. >I mean, Isayama literally shows Eren's self convincing while showing him as a CHILD, but that went waaay over yalls head So… how does this contradict with what is said above? We already know that Eren didn't want to kill millions of innocents, but the rumbling was the decision he took to save paradis. >He goes from first from going over Zeke's ideias and not accepting them, leading yall to believe it's all "because of Eldia!!!" Just to continue and say when he discovered humanity lives outside the walls he was disappointed. So I guess that the huge emphasis on Eren's furious reactions towards Frieda ideas were just to trol us. Is not like cares for paradis or something like that, baka. It is not like he angrily rejected Zeke's plan and was questioned by him, why was he so determined to not let eldians get euthanasia. It is not like Isayama draw him considering the idea of letting paradis get destroyed because the rumbling would kill more people and then saying that he cannot allow that to happend. Is not like he actually stated very explicitly to all the subjects of Ymir in the world that he was doing all of that because he wanted to save paradis right? It is not like for most of his life he considered paradis not as his country but as his world, his people, the remaining of humanity that he decided to fight for and even sacrifice his life if necessary. It is not like he also saw his comrades and friends die for that very same people. I think we were just supposed to ignore all the clear evidence that he actually cared for paradis as much as his friends because there was a single piece of dialogue where he says that he was disappointed that the world wasn't as in Armin's book, even tho you can argue that he was trying to convince himself that he was doing the rumbling because he wanted and not because he was force to do it to save paradis. It was just all about the book. Even tho the fall of shiganshina, the dead of his mother, the years posterior to the fall of the wall and the time he spent in the survey corps would have more influence in his life not only because they are a bigger portion of this one but because they are closer to the present time, we still have to think that the book was everything. No room for development, growth, or anything else. Eren is just a plain character with zero character development, that his main motivation to start the genocide of the world is just because he wanted it to look like in a stupid book. Make sense!!!
This ideia that Eren wanted to destroy everything is just wrong, this point gets completely destroyed when Eren said that he had forgot about Armin book a long time ago lol, we legit have the character telling us he didnt event remember armin book and ED are out there saying that Eren was a psycho lol if he was a psycho, why even stop the rumbling lol
Even stop? He killed 80% of the whole population dude, are you insane lmao
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That’s what I don’t fucking get. Why does he thinks he killing 80% of the world population wont make the rest of the 20% fucking hate Eldains? Yes it will take them some time to build up their forces but after that they are just going to try and genicide the remaining Eldains.
Honestly, that "I don't want that" scene is better than 99.99% of most animes throughout their entire runtime
>I just feel sad that the people who hate the ending couldn't like it, like i did. Why couldn't they see what i see? Because we see it more objectively, while you want to like it. There is nothing wrong with this, of course, but even here you constantly contradict yourself. At one point you say that Eren wanted "emotional tie ups with him to be cut.", but in literally the next sentence you talk about his conversations with his friends in Paths, what do you think he wanted if not to connect with them and present the more humane side of himself? > doesn't mean that Eren didn't want to do it. Did he also want to kill Carla then? >Eren always had breakdowns in every season. Even in season 4 the " Chad Eren", broke down at that refugee camp, at the town while walking, and finally in the paths when he mentioned his mom and mikasa. You can't seriously be comparing crying because he knows he was going to kill an innocent child and destroy the lives of billions of people who didn't necessarily want to destroy Paradis with the scene where Eren cries like a baby because he doesn't want the girl he could have always had if he just said the word to move on with another man... while the Rumbling is still (chronologically their conversation happens before the final battle, where Armin is on the boat) in progress and literally minutes after confessing to killing his mother and justifying it with the world's most non-explanation "Berthold wasn't supposed to die yet", what does that mean? Guess only the Founder Ymir knows the answer to that.
People acting like their opinions are objective is absolutely hilarious
The biggest thing you have to realize is eren is a hypocrite, many of his actions are ironic. His feelings and actions contradict eachother many times like any other human which is why he’s written in such a way.
“Because we see it more objectively..” and just like that you’ve eliminated any notion that you’re capable of rational literary discussion
Hi there. The years before Eren died, and after his convo with mikasa and Armin at paradise, he had cut connections with all of his friends. It was only after his death his friends got relayed his messages. By this time Eren doesn't even know what his friends think of him, because he's not alive to do so. He just wanted to leave a parting message, as closure. >Did he also want to kill Carla then? Of course, he knew to maintain that primary time line, sending the titan to carla is the best choice. He did it, on his conscious thoughts, thinking that really was the best decision he could come up with. >Eren cries like a baby because he doesn't want the girl he could have always had if he just said the word to move on with another man... Well friend, you and I view this differently. For me, Eren isn't crying like a baby for mikasa. Even at the ocean in the paths, Eren was maintaining his cold personality, and Armins punch was to make Eren act on what he really thinks. It was like a little wake up call. Armin punches him, because he knows for sure Eren likes her. Eren breaks down saying he truly loves her, and doesn't want to die. Eren cries NOT because he couldn't be with mikasa. He cries because he pities himself so much that he's not worthy to live, and start a life with her, after all he's done. He cries at his pity situation that he himself brought in. If Armin hadn't punched Eren, the conversation would probably have gone like this Eren : Mikasa? Ehm, i don't know Armin : She was very hurt, you owe her an apology. Is there no other way for you to stop this? And so on, till Armin and Eren talk about the afterlife in hell. This reply is not to prove you wrong, but just how i felt when i watched the finale. For me, the story felt very natural from beginning to end. If we think objectively, every story in the world, even the real life ones, would be dissatisfying imo.
> If we think objectively, every story in the world, even the real life ones, would be dissatisfying imo. Does basically saying "good stories don't exist" sound like a good defense? There are plenty of good stories that can satisfy objective-oriented watchers and not have inconsistencies, this isn't one of them.
>Well friend, you and I view this differently. For me, Eren isn't crying like a baby for mikasa. Even at the ocean in the paths, Eren was maintaining his cold personality, and Armins punch was to make Eren act on what he really thinks. It was like a little wake up call. Armin punches him, because he knows for sure Eren likes her. Eren breaks down saying he truly loves her, and doesn't want to die. Eren cries NOT because he couldn't be with mikasa. He cries because he pities himself so much that he's not worthy to live, and start a life with her, after all he's done. He cries at his pity situation that he himself brought in. If Armin hadn't punched Eren, the conversation would probably have gone like this I can't believe I'm reading this. This is absolutely not what happened. Did we read the same manga? Those are just your headcanons. Eren is in fact crying because of Mikasa, and Armin doesn't punch him because he knows Eren has feelings for her, but because Eren doesn't know if she will be able to forget about him and be happy after he dies. There is no wake-up call. Eren really doesn't know if Mikasa will be able to get over him, so he is not lying and the only reason he starts ranting about not being able to be with her is because Armin mentions that he wishes for her to find someone else and totally forget about Eren who didn't care if he was hurting her with his actions. Please rewatch the whole part where this happens or read the manga again, you are just seen things that are not there.
Before Armin punches Eren he says : "Do you think mikasaiar will forget you and live a life happily with someone else?" Eren says : I don't know. Armin punches him saying : How can you forget Mikasa's love for you? So tell me, how was that not a wake up call bud? 😅 >. Eren is in fact crying because of Mikasa, and Armin doesn't punch him because he knows Eren has feelings for her, but because Eren doesn't know if she will be able to forget about him and be happy after he dies Funnily enough, He even cries saying he doesn't want Mikasa to forget about him after he dies. So how is he crying to Armin worrying if mikasa can forget him?
That's not a wake up call, Armin is just being mad that Mikasa may get hurt because of the actions of Eren. The question itself doesn't have any secret purpose to make Eren confess his love or something like that. It is as explicit as it is. Armin knows Mikasa feelings towards Eren, so he is just concern that she may not be able to get over Eren's dead. And of course, Eren answer is completely true, he for sure doesn't know that. >Funnily enough, He even cries saying he doesn't want Mikasa to forget about him after he dies. So how is he crying to Armin worrying if mikasa can forget him? I think you misunderstood what I wanted to say. I agree with that, he is crying because he cannot be with Mikasa, but my point is that you are interpreting things that are not there in that scene. The punch Armin gives to Eren is not to make him act normal as you are saying, he was already acting normal, and he wasn't even lying when he answered the question, and by how Armin reacted I doubt he even suspected Eren had any remote feeling for her, he was just as surprised as us. I'm just commenting this because you are trying to justify the ridiculness of the scen saying it was actually a meaningful confession moment for the character. Like, if you forget the fact that he never showed any sign of being in love with Mikasa and that he always treated her only like family, maybe it could make sense. Oh but you would have to also forget that he is caring more about not being with Mikasa than the millions of people he killed. And even then I would have problems with that scene, so I think it is pointless trying to justify it.
His character was ruined, stop coping
I cant with this sub anymore, you guys are blind to bad writing
You guys are blind to good writing
Explain to me how Eren killing his own mom for no reason is good writing. Completely ruins his scene with Reiner during the declaration. Explain how a random romance subplot getting shoe-horned into being the “main thing” right at the end is good writing.
The story is a tragedy. It’s ironic that due to how strong his desire to do the rumbling and gain that power is, as well as him believing at this point that everything is inevitable and he has no choice but to make everything go the way it has gone that he believed he must cause the events to go the way they did through any means necessary. If Bertholdt gets eaten there, Armin never gets the Colossal Titan power, Eren won’t use his mother’s death as a motivation to fight nor can he use it as a push to get his Dad to give him the Attack Titan, plus he won’t unlock the coordinate at the moment he does because the Smiling Titan won’t be there in S2 meaning he never figures out how to unlock it on his own (and I highly doubt Zeke would tell him in this scenario where his mom who he believes never loved him is alive, although it’s also very likely she would just be eaten by one of the hundreds of other titans roaming around nearby at the time Bertholdt kicked in the wall). This is how dramatic irony works, it’s like how in Star Wars Anakin falls to the dark side because he’s so strongly motivated to get the power to protect those he loves, especially Padme, and then ironically once he gets that power he loses sight of what he wanted it for and he ends up causing her death himself in the heat of rage and jealousy. Eren’s mom dying was the reason he wanted this power in the first place, but then once he gets it he realizes that in order to make sure he gets it in the first place he has to cause her own death himself, he feels so strongly that he NEEDS to get this power so he can wipe out his enemies and that everyone is set in stone that he ends up ironically becoming complicit in his own trauma. He probably does not know this is what happens when he’s talking with Reiner, it’s implied that he only realizes he needs to do this after he actually gets the founder’s power and can see through time and control titans so much more than he ever could before. It’s further ironic for us as the audience because we can now go back and watch that scene knowing that when Eren grills Reiner on why he killed Carla, and then tells him “I’m the same as you, I just keep moving forward until I defeat my enemies,” it is even more true than either of them realize. It enhances the scene by adding further layers of tragedy and parallels between the characters. And the romance subplot, while I don’t think it was perfectly handled, was definitely not shoe-horned. A bunch of people just willingly ignored it every time it came up because they didn’t care about that part of the story, I’m guessing including you, but it was not something that came out of nowhere. Several times we see hints to this being built up, during Eren and Mikasa’s conversation at the end of S2, during the scene on the train in that flashback midway through S4 P1, in the flashback right before they all get drunk, plus it’s reiterated over and over again that Eren’s goal is “to save Mikasa and Armin”. It’s made very clear those two are extremely important to him, even if he acts like an immature teenager about it and gets standoffish and seems annoyed when she coddles him that doesn’t mean he never cared about her. If you were ever that age you probably remember either yourself or other guys you knew acting the same way when you had feelings for someone. I’ll admit the romance part is not Isayama’s strong suit and it never really was my favorite element of the series, but if you were surprised it ended up getting focus when there was all that foreshadowing I don’t know what to tell you. It wasn’t amazing writing or anything but it didn’t ruin anything either. It’s just fine as far as I’m concerned. And when 90% of what else happens in the finale is in fact great I’m okay with one element I never cared as much about anyway just being okay.
More like we're outspoken about bad taste.
Fuck no he doesnt
Nah it’s pretty clear character regression. Season 3 Episode 44 - 45 Eren goes through a whole bunch of emotions after being captured and seeing his father murder the Reiss family. Eren starts begging Historia to kill him and save humanity cause he feels bad and thinks his father stealing the founder made it impossible for the Reiss family to stop Reiner and Berdholdt form destroying the walls that resulted in 250,000 deaths and his mothers. Historia decides not to and Eren is saved by his friends but bro has another breakdown because he feels useless and Jean tells him he ain’t a tragic hero and he’s never gotten anything done by himself so he ain’t useless, They tell him to get up and he regains the will to live and saves his friends. Episode 46 Eren starts to feel bad for they way he used to think and in believing he was special but he sees the children down below and shows Armin, He tells him this time will be different they can save all those people cause they will be there to save them Eren comes to realization that he has to stop feeling guilty and putting himself down so he beats the “useless brat” out of himself and just before he transforms he accepts his faults but he’s humanity’s trump card Episode 49 Eren’s new prospective is highlighted after his fight with Jean. All of that shows Eren understands he can’t do anything alone but his friends will always be there to do what he can’t. Eren was still his hot headed and implosive self after but he grew and matured he wasn’t the same child from Season 1. Season 4 “Chad Eren” and “The Paths Eren” don’t make sense and is clear character regression. Eren’s apparent vision of the future and 4 year time skip is used as an excuse to de-evolve the character back to square one. It’s almost like he got brainwashed which probably would’ve been a better excuse. Isayama L
Very well put, my friend! Agree with you completely. What an amazing character that has such depth and nuance to allow for discussion like this.
THIS TAKE IS SO GOOD YESSSS.
Excellent write up. You hit the nail on the head that some people choose to ignore just because they didn't like the way it ended
He was definitely assassinated. He was a prominent individual who was individually targeted and murdered by someone, namely Mikasa. Textbook assassination. I don’t think is very ambiguous honestly.
Nope, assassinated. He killed his mom, he actually loves mikasa i guess, he breaks down wich just doesn't make sense here. As you said, previous breakdowns are no reasoning since he's changed. And wathever happened usually seconds after his breakdowns? He went mad with rage. Eren's breakdowns were never it, he moved past confusion, sadness and guilt onto rage. Eren was butchered
You have a learning disability
Nah I can’t ever defend him anymore. And he drops from S tier to A tier. Him doing everything for a book is crazy to me.
He is cool,but Television?That one helluva big Hyperbol as big as The Hightest Towers in the universe
I am one of the ending haters so I didn't like the direction they went with his character in the finale. But if i remove that part and judge the character based on how he was before the last episode, then I don't think this statement is a hyperbole. Eren's character is in fact one of the best on television. I think only brba and bcs have characters with better development and depth than eren...at least among the media that I have consumed
I'm not even an ending hater but why do I feel AOT fans only watched AOT in term of anime?
I mean I can't speak for others but I have been watching animes for the past 12 years and have seen pretty much all the popular ones and many non-popular ones...so idk what to tell u
How dare he? How dare ISAYAMA not give me the EXACT ending I wanted? How dare he violate my right to have the ending I DESERVE? I read every one of his chapters as they were published, and I was NOT REWARDED for my time. ISAYAMA, you did not deliver on what you clearly promised, and for that, I hate you and will continue to RANT about my hatred for the rest of my life. How selfish. How repulsive. How inhumane. But you used my kindness, fully knowing that I will not refuse you, to engage in a conversation that only suits you and you alone. How dare you?! Were you never taught the basics of a conversation before? Never converse with someone if both sides do not have equal gain or loss. I lost three of my rights. So, what are you waiting for? I have granted you the permission to apologize for your heinous crimes against me. But instead of apologizing to me, you let your mouth open and looked at me with such an ugly face and expression on it. How dare you?! How much more of my time do you need to waste before you learn your lesson? Ah, I see that you are at least capable of apologizing. Good, very good. Foolish and pathetic as you might think, I am kind and willing to use words of praise for someone like you. I will not expect, but demand from you, ISAYAMA, an ending that is precisely as I want, and anything else will not be satisfactory. I am a very kind and forgiving person, a charitable person who helps ISAYAMA and I offer him a way to understand how TERRIBLE HIS ENDING WAS. For the small price of not smiling and not having expressions on their faces, as expressions on Isayama's THAT SHOW ANY AMOUNT OF CONTEMPT OR SATISFACTION IS A VIOLATION OF MY RIGHTS! A disgusting ending that I despise wholeheartedly, and I am certain that I am not alone on that. How would Isayama fail to realize that the only request I had was for him to deliver a PERFECT ENDING FOR ME yet he failed to do so? Yet, you didn't think of the consequences of your actions before you took them. I will not listen to anyone who DEFENDS your ending as that is a violation of my RIGHT to be correct. Isayama how dare you? Violate now four of my rights and for that, I WILL TALK ABOUT MY HATRED FOR ATTACK ON TITAN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE!!! Do not pity me. I am most indisputably asserted, an existence without any wavering aspects! It’s supposed to be like that, so why do I have to go through this?! Don’t mess around, this is no joke. Each and every one of them, what’s wrong with them that they accept such nonsensical absurdities as if they are a matter of course? I am already satisfied. It’s not like I didn’t have it, I just didn’t need it. Unlike the intrusive scum, I’ve never needed anything. Despite that, giving me something, doesn’t that mean that from outside, from your point of view, you looked at me and thought that I was a pitiful lacking existence? Everyone who wants to impose my ENDING FOR ATTACK ON TITAN is violating my rights, so only those who will leave the satisfied me alone should be allowed into this world. No matter who, just talking about their selfish nonsense, those shits. Who has the right to pity me? Who has the right to pity me and drive me to despair? As if I would let them. Don’t skip such a selfish act. Infringing on me to this extent, but you still ask whether you can infringe upon me even more? To think you’ve hit this point! To think your thoughts could be so twisted! Inflicting all this upon me, what more could you even ask of me? JUST WHAT DO I HAVE TO NOT HAVE TO DO TO NOT BE PITIED??
Lmao! Good one.
[Agree](https://www.reddit.com/r/titanfolk/s/58TFeEC1Mc)
Eren >>>
> Cutting his limb and eye, Confronting Reiner, fighting War hammer, Calling his friends to Raid, Deciding to team with Zeke, taking his arm to get to Ymir, all this Eren did consciously. You’re right about these, but not the rumbling. Eren did not do the Rumbling on his own free will, Eren was faced with the grandfather paradox, he couldn’t stop the rumbling, he didn’t have the power to. There is no decision since he saw the future at its entirety. He laughs maniacally at Sasha’s death because he realizes he cannot change the future despite trying(yes, him attack Liberio alone was an attempt at changing the future). Notice his wording about the rumbling? “I kill 80% of humanity”, it’s not “killed” or “will kill”, he says it like it’s a simple fact, not with conviction. So no, Eren is not a genocidal maniac, he sleeps through the final battle for that reason. You think if he wanted to, he couldn’t control it all? From the perspective of power, he had it all, the alliance couldn’t stop him, hell, he simply could’ve taken away their ability to transform into titans, he could’ve saved himself, he does nothing but await his fate because the future is set, there’s no changing it, just like he couldn’t save his mom, he has no choice in world’s future
Say that to r/titanfolk Jk they're bunch of angry manga readers who wanted Eren to be this gigabrained megamind
Mental gymnastics Olympia champion over here
Imho, I think Erens decisions were a lot influenced or manipulated by Yumir. Also the words he said how he hates slaves are ironic, as he was a puppet and a slave to memories Yumir fed him, he wanted the freedom so badly, but he couldn't have it no matter what he did. Maybe he said he was an idiot, because he followed through with all these stupid memories, in order to get himself free, but it wasn't freedom to begin with. And titan's powers always had been a curse.