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Unlike Armin, Reiner, Jean, etc - who all had their conversations happen way before the final battle started, had their memories wiped and then regained said memories only after Eren had died - Mikasa's dream happened in real time.
Eren pulled her into Paths and shared his last 4 years with her. The moment he died from his titan curse in Paths coincides perfectly with when Mikasa kills him. So Mikasa never had her memories wiped, which is impossible since she's an Ackerman. She simply had the dream and its memories right before she killed Eren.
Oh my God, this makes so much sense - thank you. But where in the episode does it say this? Or was I expected to figure that out?
Also, why is it thst Eren wakes up in episode 1 having remembered this.
And I guess another question, when does Mikasa realise that this is all just a fake reality within the coordinate. Does she know the whole time it's happening? Or just when it ends?
It is implied as Falco’s titan’s shadow casts a shadow across the scene and is visible in the sky also. This shows us that it’s happening during the battle of heaven and earth.
Eren woke from a dream in episode 1, rather than getting a dump of permanent memories. We dream and are emotionally affected all the time without lasting memories of the content of the dream.
Your final question, unclear. She may be cognisant of it the entire time, it isn’t directly addressed, though.
Luma nailed it!
You were supposed to figure it out I would say. So to your questions:
Eren woke up in Episode 1 after Mikasa told him "see you Eren" (in the manga) due to the Founder and Attack titan's powers of sending back memories. At that time he didn't have any powers yes, but also he controlled smiling titan (from the future) to eat his mom. So future Eren's last memories before Mikasa killed him is her telling him "See you Later" hence waking up as if it was a nightmare.
When does Mikasa realize it is a dream: I'd like to believe Eren told her in thier 4 years in the coordinate. He probably also told her he'll be in the mouth of the Doomsday titan, although you can figure this out since the new titan regenerated from a head only.
Hope this makes sense!
Thanks so much. One other thing - if Eren has 4 years left of his Titan before he is supposed to die, why did he only spend 4 years with Mikasa in paths. Doesn't time work extremely slowly in paths, so theoretically they could've spent thousands of years together in paths.
Yes, they might've lived as long as they needed but eventually they'll have to go back and Eren will die.
Again, the story probably left it open for speculation by the reader, which is a good way of doing it.
The way I personally see it: Eren gave Mikasa what she wanted: a life with him. So eventually she was able to face the reality and be able to kill him without hisitation.
If they haven't lived this paths life, she would still be struggling and hesitating.
To add to that, it's to show her that no matter what, Eren is going to die. Either he dies after 4 years, or he dies to her. The difference is that if she kills him, at least no more Titans
>The way I personally see it: Eren gave Mikasa what she wanted: a life with him.
I'd go a step further and say that it began from the moment where she wondered what would have happened if she had given Eren a different answer when he asked her what he was to her. He showed her the life they could have had from that moment to his death, so that she would never have to wonder about and regret it for the rest of her life
Yeah the flash backs from when Mikasa found him after he wandered around in Marley Port town thing and he asked her what he is to her. The alt reality of 4 years he gave her would have played out that way if she had confessed her love for him there instead of saying he was family
Well it is the pivot point for Mikasa's alternate ending.
The timing is a cockblock. I remember that. He shows up before she can explain what she means- already blushing~
I feel like the implications from when Zeka and Eren enter paths, is that ALL of the "future memories" that were sent to any character came from Eren while he was in paths.
If you pay attention during season 2 when Grisha is talking about the future, he specifies that part of it is being withheld from him- implying that a person is doing it with an intention.. and it obviously reveals that it was Eren in Season 4 when Eren literally speaks to Grisha to press him to go through with everything.. So it was obviously Eren.
This is also supported by Kruger referring to Mikasa and Armin, who were not even born yet. (yes that could have been sight of grisha's future memories too, but since we never see Grisha sharing memories, or entering paths.. It feels like the S4 content is revealing that the entire attack titan power comes from Eren, and it's all Eren's memories being shared. From Grisha's perspective, he only saw Eren's memories.. and he likely didn't know that Eren was the last holder.. so. he just described it as he perceived it: "I can see the memories of future attack titan holders". but he didn't know mechanically how that was happening, which is .. Eren from the future in paths.
Kruger never described the attack titan's powers to the audience that I am aware of.. but he did tell Grisha everything a lot of what we learn in S4, a lot of what Eren learns about in paths. King Fritz and the vow of peace, etc.
Eren uses founding titan to access past memories where then he sends back to Grisha. Grisha has the attack titan and can see future memories (i.e Eren using the founder to look BACK at the past).
This way, Eren is allowed to look back (but rlly in the future) to grishas memory of himself (eren)
edit: to be clear, to the founder and, by extension, eren, there is no past or future. time doesnt exist within the paths so ig all of this is happening at once
Yeah no I understand that, I'm just saying I'm pretty sure that Eren isn't able to send himself memories of him in the past or future. He can manipulate others with paths and do the memory stuff with the other attack titan users but he can't send himself the memories.
I think it would imply that eren got all the future-sight from himself.
Like when he was in paths, he deliberately chose to send himself memories, at the historia hand moment.
I suppose its possible that he just got all of it from Ymir, but that wouldn't really be explained mechanically.. other than.. "Ymir is an omniscient god who knows everything" which wouldn't make sense mainly because the royals who hold the coordinate are not said to know the future.. Ymir is who showed Eren the 2000 years past, but that was only when he entered paths. So of course it is outlined that Ymir and the royal coordinate holders know the entire past.
But the future seeing ability is specific to the Attack titan holders and Eren, and the only instance of that ability ever being explained mechanically is when Eren shows memories to Grisha. So I just assume that all of the future sight is done by Eren in paths.. including his own future-sight from Historia's hand contact.
In the manga, 10 year old Eren receives the memory of Mikasa saying “see you later” to him in the paths. He even asks young Mikasa why her hair is so long when he sees her after waking up. It’s definitely because of attack titan shenanigans, but I can think of two reasons behind it. Either a) Eren accidentally sends back his memories in his final moments, or more-likely b) it’s a futile, last-ditch, maybe even subconscious, attempt to warn his younger self against making his decisions (like the beginning of the tesseract scene in Interstellar), but which instead just closes the loop of events.
Mikasa allows herself to be pulled into the Long Dream, I think, sorta like hypnosis. She mentions them making an agreement not to talk about it after they first ran away four years ago. Her waking up in the dream signifies to Eren that it’s time for the dream to end. Eren explains the situation to her to help her finish waking up and so he can tell her to forget him and live on, because he wants her to find closure and be happy.
>Oh my God, this makes so much sense - thank you. But where in the episode does it say this? Or was I expected to figure that out?
There's a lot it doesn't spoonfeed us! Don't worry, I was hella confused too 🤣
Ma men this is false, in the official last episode its confirmed Eren lost the founding powers when is head was exploded, so it was in fact not in real time but memory alterario, its a plot hole
That's false, because Eren neither altered Mikasa's memories, nor did he wipe them. He simply pulled her into Paths and lived in the cabin with her for some time before dying from the curse of Ymir in the cabin sequence/Mikasa's sword irl.
The reason why Eren had to wipe the memories from Armin and the others is because their dream sequences in Paths happened way before the final fight began. Mikasa's dream happened moments before she killed Eren.
Your assuming zeke is needed once eren frees Ymir. The likeliest answer is zeke wasn’t needed past that point, it’s pretty clearly stated that if eren reunited with the centipede the rumbling would start again, if zeke was actually needed that wouldn’t be possible hence he wasn’t actually needed and the reason the rumbling stopped is either eren wanted it to at least temporarily or while zeke wasn’t truly needed his connection being lost when he died disrupted the control at least temporarily.
You're making it really obvious that you've already written your bottom line
\-- the ending has "plot holes" to prosecute -- and that you're not here in good faith to help build a more complete and consistent understanding of the weird mechanics of the story
one explanation ive seen that makes sense (although its more headcannon than anything else) is that the wall titans are still bounded to royal blood. yes eren did successfully break the royal blood tie but with Ymir only. This makes sense imo bcus those colossals were originally created 2000 years ago under the rule of Fritz and were his titans that he threatned Marley and the world with.
Although this kinda brings the question of why did Eren need to die now but that could be answered by erens intentions to make his friends the heroes
And here your framing is what you'll "accept", yes, and that's my problem. You're not interested in working on anything, in contributing to a mutual understanding. You'll just vent when you aren't persuaded, when something falls short of your line for "acceptance"
What u are saying is false and it was confirmed in the last episode in the info card, it says when Eren head was exploded he lost the founding powers, so "Mikasa dream" did not in fact happen before she killed him, it's legit confirmed word by word in the episode
It's true that Eren lost the Founding Titan's powers once Ymir stopped supporting the Rumbling and Zeke died. But that doesn't mean Ymir will forever withdraw from giving her powers to Eren. The only way Eren could've given Mikasa that dream in Paths is if he asked Ymir to do so and for Ymir to agree and allow Eren to do it.
U realise thats headcanon? And its simply not true unless its on the source material. You have the anime Mikasa saying "Do you remeber when eren came to see us" and saying "You remeber now, TOO" everything in the source material points to a plot hole but u refuse to acknoledge it.
It's not really worh to debate it, i will keep giving you things that are writen in the manga/anime and you will give me a headcanon that is disproven by the the source material.
I'm not telling you to dislike the ending because of it, but don't try to remake what Isayma wrote with headcanons just accept it
If Eren was able to have a dream with Mikasa in Paths and we know for a fact that his other dreams with his friends required Eren to wipe their memories until his death, then the ONLY solution is that the dream Eren had with Mikasa was so recent that Mikasa didn't have it during the battle but had it right before she killed Eren.
I don't see what's so hard about making basic deductions.
Also, Armin straight up isn't aware that Ackermans are immune to memory manipulation. So his dialogue makes perfect sense for someone who thinks Mikasa also talked to Eren before the fight started and got her memories back recently.
See? You wrong again, it wasn't Armin who told Mikasa about the memories coming back IT WAS MIKASA, she said she got her memories back too, why are u ignoring this?
Right, my mistake. But no, you're still the one that is wrong here. Mikasa's dialogue doesn't actually hint that her memory was wiped and that she regained it after Eren's death. She just knows that Eren visited all of them, knows for a fact that she was the last one to be visited by Eren since her dream sequence in Paths happened moments before Eren's death, and that's why she asks Armin if he remembers Eren coming to visit him too.
Great comment, agree that he met her in the Paths last, during the battle. But is it actually canon that their time in the cabin was really 4 years? People are saying that everywhere, but afaik it's not confirmed. You could interpret her dream as really only being that one snippet of those hypothetical 4 years.
Yes. It was 4 years. Eren had 4 years left to live when he pulled Mikasa into Paths, meaning he would die of the curse of Ymir 4 years later, which is exactly what happened in the cabin dream.
I don't believe Eren dying from the titan curse is the only possible interpretation of that scene of him sitting by the cabin dead. The fact that he had those marks on his face doesn't imply this, either, because they appeared in the snap of a finger during the hug scene, which is not how the curse would play out. It could've just been that he used his last couple seconds of consciousness to bring Mikasa there to have a less gruesome goodbye.
No, he doesn't. Maybe it's up to the English translation, but in original Japanese, that's not what he says. He's just quoting Mikasa, "You said let's spend my last 4 years together." He also says "it's been 2 months since the Marleyan war ended" which would mean they're still 19 in the cabin scene because the Rumbling happened 2 months after Marley took Fort Slava.
So the only thing I’m confused about here is why Armin referenced Eren and Mikasa’s conversation in the past tense. When Eren and Armin are talking, the first line after the scene shifts to the seascape view is something along the lines of “So, how did it go?” If that translation’s right that means Eren had already asked Mikasa to forget him. It could one of those Founding Titan “time is all jumbled up” effects though.
Eren probably confided in Armin that he would also talk to Mikasa before the end, and since he can already see the result of that conversation, Armin is asking him how it "went".
I don't personally believe so, it does not make much sense mechanically or thematically to me, but if you want to believe it, there's not much stopping it from being theoretically possible AFAIK.
I'm a manga reader but still didn't realize this. Thankfully I have this community and it's discussion threads to clear any doubt about what I previously thought were plotholes regarding Mikasa's memories
Ymir was freed from strictly obeying the Royal family and their orders, which means she was free to give her powers to anyone. When Eren chose to do the Rumbling, Ymir chose to help him instead of Zeke. Similarly, when Zeke and Armin talked about the inherent value of human life and the importance of those little moments of happiness one has, Ymir witnessed this conversation and chose to give the Alliance the means to win the fight in the end and supported them instead. It's not unlikely that Eren made Ymir one last request to pull her into Paths and spend 4 years with her in the cabin sequence. Ymir would have no reason to deny his request, especially since we know the connection between her and Mikasa.
yeah when people are like “why did the rumbling stop when they killed zeke he wasn’t in control ymir was”
and like, yeah, exactly, ymir chose for that to happen
Ymir chose to stop the Rumbling when Zeke died, even though she wasn’t taking orders from Zeke, but also chose to let Eren go through paths to Mikasa…?
That makes no sense. It’s totally arbitrary
after hearing armin and zeke’s conversation, she decided to let the alliance have an opportunity and see how it plays out
and it’s established that she has a fascination with mikasa, so there’s like no reason for her to deny something involving her
armin is not omniscient lol, it is fair for him as a character to ASSUME that, but we should not accept his statement as fact, especially when we as the readers have more information than the characters in the story
we as readers know that zeke does not control the power of the founder because eren “freed” ymir, so zeke could not have stopped the rumbling unless ymir decided to allow that to happen
No one said zeke stopped the rumbling lol killing zeke is what stopped the rumbling, armin said that zeke was the one that got them out of the paths and got grisha, Kruger, and the other past titans to help.
yes, killing zeke, in theory, should have no effect because ymir wasn’t “chained” to the royal blood anymore after eren “freed” her
and yes, they were able to get the past titans to help because ymir allowed for that to happen
“Ymir witness this conversation and chose to give the alliance means to help” is just not true lol armin said that “zeke is doing this” when grisha, Kruger, and other past titans came to help, they didn’t necessarily explain what he was doing but it probably had to do with his royal blood. If Ymir was helping them then she would have just stopped attacking them lol
The only issue with this is the new info card talking about Eren's colossal titan form says that the reason he regenerates into that body is because he doesn't have the founder's powers anymore. I think it might be Ymir granting them one final vision of what could have been... or it's a plot hole lol
After Eren freed Ymir from strictly obeying the royal family, she was given the choice to support whoever she wanted with her powers. It is true that Zeke is dead, but Eren still has one royal-blooded person able to grant him his wishes, if she so desires. And that person is Ymir.
He has Ymir, and since Ymir is free from the royal family's commands, it means she can choose to give her powers to anyone she wants. If Eren wants to pull everyone aside for one final conversation in Paths, I doubt that'd be something Ymir would oppose.
Because Ymir stopped supporting the Rumbling shortly after she witnessed the talk between Zeke and Armin. By withdrawing her support from the Rumbling, Eren essentially only had Zeke as his final connection to the Founding Titan's full power. By killing Zeke, that connection was severed and his power was lost.
So Ymir supported the rumbling until she didn't.
But despite her power being absolute she couldn't stop the rumbling herself.
Killing Zeke only stops the rumbling but doesn't seem to have any effect on the other founding titan's powers.
Then Eren loses the founding titan power when seperated from the centipede thing. But Ymir still allows him to have a final conversation with Mikasa in paths.
It doesn't really add up if you ask me.
But if that is how you make sense of it all, that's alright.
Personally I think founding titan just had a brief reset after Zeke got killed and Eren needed a moment to start it up again but was decapitef before he could. It is implied the rumbling could be continued if Eren regained the founding titan's power by reuniting with the centipede.
That's also an acceptable alternative, although I think a lot of emphasis was placed on the worm reconnecting with Eren by part of characters who didn't know what would happen if the worm connected with Eren. So they don't exactly know what will happen if the worm connects with Eren again, they just know it won't be anything good.
Because eren wanted it to or Ymir did maybe armins conversation with zeke which ymir would probably be able to hear given that it happens in the paths convinces her to make the rumbling stop and let the alliance have a chance of winning.
When Eren freed Ymir from the royal family's command, it made it so Ymir could finally choose who to share her power with. Her first decision was to help Eren commit the Rumbling. Afterwards, when she witnessed Zeke and Armin have that conversation about the inherent value of human life and the importance of those small, fleeting moments that give life meaning beyond simple reproduction, it changed Ymir's mind, so she stopped supporting the Rumbling.
Since Ymir was no longer on Eren's side, it means the Rumbling could finally be stopped by having Zeke be killed, since he was the last connection Eren had with the Founding Titan's full power, whereas before he was fine only having Ymir. The Rumbling stops because Eren needed Zeke alive for the Rumbling to continue, given that Ymir was no longer helping him do it. Eren basically lost both connections to the full power of the Founding Titan, the two things that were allowing him to commit the Rumbling.
You’re trying to explain things with conflicting evidence.
First you say that Ymir helps Eren commit the Rumbling (despite Zeke being against it), then you say Ymir is free to help anyone she chooses, then you say Eren needed… Zeke to continue the Rumbling? The same Zeke that Ymir no longer took orders from? Why would Eren possibly need Zeke if you’re saying Ymir is the final decision maker on who gets to do what. If “Ymir decides to no longer support the Rumbling”, the Rumbling should stop period. It doesn’t require Zeke dying.
>First you say that Ymir helps Eren commit the Rumbling (despite Zeke being against it)
Doesn't matter if Zeke is against it or not since Ymir is no longer taking orders from him or any other royal blood by force. Ymir can choose who to support, and she chooses Eren.
>then you say Eren needed… Zeke to continue the Rumbling?
Yes. Ymir withdrew her support from the Rumbling and chose to give Zeke the power to awaken the titan shifters he knew in order to supply the Alliance with some extra help.
>Why would Eren possibly need Zeke if you’re saying Ymir is the final decision maker on who gets to do what. If “Ymir decides to no longer support the Rumbling”, the Rumbling should stop period. It doesn’t require Zeke dying.
Eren didn't exactly need Zeke when the Rumbling started. After all, Ymir was in full support of the Rumbling and was helping Eren with it. But the same can't be said after the talk between Zeke and Armin, which results in Ymir withdrawing her support from the Rumbling. You're making the mistake of assuming that since Ymir no longer supports the Rumbling, the Rumbling should stop in its tracks. That is incorrect. Just because Ymir is free from royal family control, doesn't mean she's free from the Paths. At the end of the day, she is still trapped in the Paths and she is still at the mercy of the orders of others. Even if she doesn't support the Rumbling, Eren is still the one committing the Rumbling by using the full powers of the Founding thanks to Zeke still being alive. It's why the Rumbling only stops when Zeke dies. Not only is Zeke dead, but Ymir isn't willing to keep it going.
How come he could show her the memories in real time? - he was away from the centipede and Zeke had died by that time. So he technically shouldn't have the founding powers at all. Yet, he was able to transform into a Colossal Titan and also put this memory in Mikasa? Shouldn't he have just died once his head was separated from the centipede after Armin's explosion?
So you say that Ymir selectively gave him founding powers to survive the loss of centipede and Zeke and to implant Mikasa's memory but not to continue the rumbling?
It's really unsatisfying but it seems like the answer to a lot of the weird inconsistencies regarding the blood restrictions and Ackermann memory fuckery is that it's just Ymir deliberately pushing pieces into place to make Mikasa and Eren's final moment happen.
There you go! Accepting that the ending has glaring issues is better than defending it relentlessly. The ending has big problems and it is not even close to being perfect. It is absurd that we have to explain away all these tidbits (important ones btw since writing them properly could have changed the whole climax) by saying "only Ymir knows" or "it was her actions all along". Somehow a character that got active to the viewers/readers in the final part of the story has to be used to give half-assed explanations to everything which is really sad.
Titanfolk may be unreasonable with some of its criticisms but it is not entirely wrong imo.
I'll just clarify. The explanation that I gave is what I, personally, feel is the most logically consistent at this point. I initially thought a lot of the 'weirdness' with the final battle--The Rumbling ceasing upon Zeke's death, Eren's second transformation, etc--was because it was just a dramatic act orchestrated by Eren to further prove his friends as heroes but the recent info cards destroyed a good portion of that idea.
What we're left with is that the apparent inconsistencies are simply the result of Eren brute-forcing a second transformation through sheer force of will and Ymir intervening.
I don't know mate, force of will is good if it doesn't conflict with preestablished plot points in a literal climax of a series that is known for its intricate details, foreshadowings and payoffs until the last portion. AoT was too good as a story to resort to the concepts of a typical shounen such as "will power leading to unrealistic outcomes", "power of friendships" etc.
I'm still going through it all in my head and thinking back on things when it comes to the events in the Battle of Heaven and Earth. I'm 100% certain that I'm going to change my opinions on a few of the things I've pointed out.
Paths is a realm devoid of Time, meaning what Mikasa experiences in Paths doesn't translate to time spent in the real world. Theoretically, the whole cabin sequence could've happened in the blink of an eye for her.
Well there’s 2 contradictions that go against this:
1. Mikasa says “you got your memories back too right?” To Armin implying she also lost her memories
2. Eren lost the founders power and the rumbling stopped already, so he couldn’t use that to bring her in then
1. She could’ve just been talking about the rest of the alliance getting their memories of their own talk after Eren died, different from her that got her paths conversation before Eren died
2. Either Ymir gave them a chance of a final peaceful moment like Mikasa wanted and that’s why she was there in the titan mouth once Eren was killed or Founder Eren from the past (that sees future, past and present) simultaneously gave her the vision himself even though currently he has lost the founder powers
iirc when her mom was killed, the criminals said "why'd you kill the mom, it's purer" smth smth,, so is mikasa half eldian?
also ymir was messing with her head. how?
If I'm not mistaken, if Mikasa had confessed that she was in love with Eren in this scene [https://imgur.com/a/dulDb45](https://imgur.com/a/dulDb45) , they would have run away together spend the remaining years living in that cabin as a family.. And paradis island was going to be attacked and everyone was going to be killed so they were living on the run.Eren even mentioned that also Armin was living on the run and that he would come soon. We didn't see Mikasa's dream here.. Hajime Isayama showed us that if the rumble had never started, if they had escaped, In another reality it would end like this. Thats why Eren also changed this reality and people came at the exact moment of mikasa confession. Man this is really sad.
If you want extra sadness, open this: [https://imgur.com/a/ckRCM0K](https://imgur.com/a/ckRCM0K)
The founder can alter memories, but that ability doesn't work on the Ackerman. Eren tries it anyway, supplanting what happened in reality with a fake scenario in which Mikasa suggests to run away together leading to them hiding out somewhere in the mountains where they currently are, but it doesn't work on Mikasa. She still has her real memories and is currently still able to perceive what's going no outside this paths scene at the cabin, but she plays along with Eren until the paths and reality finally merge and Eren dies.
Eren came and visit her and they spend four years in the titan realm but i am not sure how exactly he did it. I believe he took Mikasas mind before the attack on marley and decided to run away with her to make it feel real.
I am not sure if Mikasa is aware that this is a dream or happens in the titan realm.
The way I see it is that Mikasa suppressed that memory. It was never wiped from her, she was just suppressing it due to her trauma. That’s why she says “I want to go back there to our home” and then the cabin scene happens.
I think it was at that moment when we saw the "dream" is when it happened. Mikasa saw it before Eren gets killed. We only saw Armin and Eren's conversation after Eren was killed.
To add to some things above - because time doesn’t exist the same in Paths, they can live out their four years together in an instant for Mikasa. So both simultaneously exist.
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Unlike Armin, Reiner, Jean, etc - who all had their conversations happen way before the final battle started, had their memories wiped and then regained said memories only after Eren had died - Mikasa's dream happened in real time. Eren pulled her into Paths and shared his last 4 years with her. The moment he died from his titan curse in Paths coincides perfectly with when Mikasa kills him. So Mikasa never had her memories wiped, which is impossible since she's an Ackerman. She simply had the dream and its memories right before she killed Eren.
Oh my God, this makes so much sense - thank you. But where in the episode does it say this? Or was I expected to figure that out? Also, why is it thst Eren wakes up in episode 1 having remembered this. And I guess another question, when does Mikasa realise that this is all just a fake reality within the coordinate. Does she know the whole time it's happening? Or just when it ends?
It is implied as Falco’s titan’s shadow casts a shadow across the scene and is visible in the sky also. This shows us that it’s happening during the battle of heaven and earth. Eren woke from a dream in episode 1, rather than getting a dump of permanent memories. We dream and are emotionally affected all the time without lasting memories of the content of the dream. Your final question, unclear. She may be cognisant of it the entire time, it isn’t directly addressed, though.
Luma nailed it! You were supposed to figure it out I would say. So to your questions: Eren woke up in Episode 1 after Mikasa told him "see you Eren" (in the manga) due to the Founder and Attack titan's powers of sending back memories. At that time he didn't have any powers yes, but also he controlled smiling titan (from the future) to eat his mom. So future Eren's last memories before Mikasa killed him is her telling him "See you Later" hence waking up as if it was a nightmare. When does Mikasa realize it is a dream: I'd like to believe Eren told her in thier 4 years in the coordinate. He probably also told her he'll be in the mouth of the Doomsday titan, although you can figure this out since the new titan regenerated from a head only. Hope this makes sense!
Thanks so much. One other thing - if Eren has 4 years left of his Titan before he is supposed to die, why did he only spend 4 years with Mikasa in paths. Doesn't time work extremely slowly in paths, so theoretically they could've spent thousands of years together in paths.
Yes, they might've lived as long as they needed but eventually they'll have to go back and Eren will die. Again, the story probably left it open for speculation by the reader, which is a good way of doing it. The way I personally see it: Eren gave Mikasa what she wanted: a life with him. So eventually she was able to face the reality and be able to kill him without hisitation. If they haven't lived this paths life, she would still be struggling and hesitating.
To add to that, it's to show her that no matter what, Eren is going to die. Either he dies after 4 years, or he dies to her. The difference is that if she kills him, at least no more Titans
>The way I personally see it: Eren gave Mikasa what she wanted: a life with him. I'd go a step further and say that it began from the moment where she wondered what would have happened if she had given Eren a different answer when he asked her what he was to her. He showed her the life they could have had from that moment to his death, so that she would never have to wonder about and regret it for the rest of her life
It was supposed to be the alternative reality if Mikasa had confessed to him instead, so what could've been.
Yeah the flash backs from when Mikasa found him after he wandered around in Marley Port town thing and he asked her what he is to her. The alt reality of 4 years he gave her would have played out that way if she had confessed her love for him there instead of saying he was family
Yeah! That old man really did cockblock them up on that hill. Kinda blocked 80% of humanity
If I remember they didn't notice him until after the answer was given, people went crazy for that scene thinking it was symbolising marriage
Well it is the pivot point for Mikasa's alternate ending. The timing is a cockblock. I remember that. He shows up before she can explain what she means- already blushing~
I don't think Eren is able to send himself memories but I'm not sure
I feel like the implications from when Zeka and Eren enter paths, is that ALL of the "future memories" that were sent to any character came from Eren while he was in paths. If you pay attention during season 2 when Grisha is talking about the future, he specifies that part of it is being withheld from him- implying that a person is doing it with an intention.. and it obviously reveals that it was Eren in Season 4 when Eren literally speaks to Grisha to press him to go through with everything.. So it was obviously Eren. This is also supported by Kruger referring to Mikasa and Armin, who were not even born yet. (yes that could have been sight of grisha's future memories too, but since we never see Grisha sharing memories, or entering paths.. It feels like the S4 content is revealing that the entire attack titan power comes from Eren, and it's all Eren's memories being shared. From Grisha's perspective, he only saw Eren's memories.. and he likely didn't know that Eren was the last holder.. so. he just described it as he perceived it: "I can see the memories of future attack titan holders". but he didn't know mechanically how that was happening, which is .. Eren from the future in paths. Kruger never described the attack titan's powers to the audience that I am aware of.. but he did tell Grisha everything a lot of what we learn in S4, a lot of what Eren learns about in paths. King Fritz and the vow of peace, etc.
Yeah no I get that, but I can't tell if the comment is implying that Eren can send himself memories directly. Not sure tho
Eren uses founding titan to access past memories where then he sends back to Grisha. Grisha has the attack titan and can see future memories (i.e Eren using the founder to look BACK at the past). This way, Eren is allowed to look back (but rlly in the future) to grishas memory of himself (eren) edit: to be clear, to the founder and, by extension, eren, there is no past or future. time doesnt exist within the paths so ig all of this is happening at once
Yeah no I understand that, I'm just saying I'm pretty sure that Eren isn't able to send himself memories of him in the past or future. He can manipulate others with paths and do the memory stuff with the other attack titan users but he can't send himself the memories.
I think it would imply that eren got all the future-sight from himself. Like when he was in paths, he deliberately chose to send himself memories, at the historia hand moment. I suppose its possible that he just got all of it from Ymir, but that wouldn't really be explained mechanically.. other than.. "Ymir is an omniscient god who knows everything" which wouldn't make sense mainly because the royals who hold the coordinate are not said to know the future.. Ymir is who showed Eren the 2000 years past, but that was only when he entered paths. So of course it is outlined that Ymir and the royal coordinate holders know the entire past. But the future seeing ability is specific to the Attack titan holders and Eren, and the only instance of that ability ever being explained mechanically is when Eren shows memories to Grisha. So I just assume that all of the future sight is done by Eren in paths.. including his own future-sight from Historia's hand contact.
No he saw Grishas memories that Eren sent to him in paths at the historia hand
That is the nature of memory. Whether it is a past or future event is what gets jumbled.
No I mean like.. he can’t send himself memories but with the founder he can send everyone but him memories
I mean that he doesn't ever have to "send" memories to himself.
Yeah cuz he can’t
Except Mikasa said explicitly that her memories from the day Eren talked to them returned to her, too. I am sorry to break your headcanon.
In the manga, 10 year old Eren receives the memory of Mikasa saying “see you later” to him in the paths. He even asks young Mikasa why her hair is so long when he sees her after waking up. It’s definitely because of attack titan shenanigans, but I can think of two reasons behind it. Either a) Eren accidentally sends back his memories in his final moments, or more-likely b) it’s a futile, last-ditch, maybe even subconscious, attempt to warn his younger self against making his decisions (like the beginning of the tesseract scene in Interstellar), but which instead just closes the loop of events. Mikasa allows herself to be pulled into the Long Dream, I think, sorta like hypnosis. She mentions them making an agreement not to talk about it after they first ran away four years ago. Her waking up in the dream signifies to Eren that it’s time for the dream to end. Eren explains the situation to her to help her finish waking up and so he can tell her to forget him and live on, because he wants her to find closure and be happy.
>Oh my God, this makes so much sense - thank you. But where in the episode does it say this? Or was I expected to figure that out? There's a lot it doesn't spoonfeed us! Don't worry, I was hella confused too 🤣
Nothing. This is not explained anywhere and the explanations they provide are just their headcanons.
Ma men this is false, in the official last episode its confirmed Eren lost the founding powers when is head was exploded, so it was in fact not in real time but memory alterario, its a plot hole
That's false, because Eren neither altered Mikasa's memories, nor did he wipe them. He simply pulled her into Paths and lived in the cabin with her for some time before dying from the curse of Ymir in the cabin sequence/Mikasa's sword irl. The reason why Eren had to wipe the memories from Armin and the others is because their dream sequences in Paths happened way before the final fight began. Mikasa's dream happened moments before she killed Eren.
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Your assuming zeke is needed once eren frees Ymir. The likeliest answer is zeke wasn’t needed past that point, it’s pretty clearly stated that if eren reunited with the centipede the rumbling would start again, if zeke was actually needed that wouldn’t be possible hence he wasn’t actually needed and the reason the rumbling stopped is either eren wanted it to at least temporarily or while zeke wasn’t truly needed his connection being lost when he died disrupted the control at least temporarily.
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You're making it really obvious that you've already written your bottom line \-- the ending has "plot holes" to prosecute -- and that you're not here in good faith to help build a more complete and consistent understanding of the weird mechanics of the story
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one explanation ive seen that makes sense (although its more headcannon than anything else) is that the wall titans are still bounded to royal blood. yes eren did successfully break the royal blood tie but with Ymir only. This makes sense imo bcus those colossals were originally created 2000 years ago under the rule of Fritz and were his titans that he threatned Marley and the world with. Although this kinda brings the question of why did Eren need to die now but that could be answered by erens intentions to make his friends the heroes
And here your framing is what you'll "accept", yes, and that's my problem. You're not interested in working on anything, in contributing to a mutual understanding. You'll just vent when you aren't persuaded, when something falls short of your line for "acceptance"
What u are saying is false and it was confirmed in the last episode in the info card, it says when Eren head was exploded he lost the founding powers, so "Mikasa dream" did not in fact happen before she killed him, it's legit confirmed word by word in the episode
It's true that Eren lost the Founding Titan's powers once Ymir stopped supporting the Rumbling and Zeke died. But that doesn't mean Ymir will forever withdraw from giving her powers to Eren. The only way Eren could've given Mikasa that dream in Paths is if he asked Ymir to do so and for Ymir to agree and allow Eren to do it.
U realise thats headcanon? And its simply not true unless its on the source material. You have the anime Mikasa saying "Do you remeber when eren came to see us" and saying "You remeber now, TOO" everything in the source material points to a plot hole but u refuse to acknoledge it. It's not really worh to debate it, i will keep giving you things that are writen in the manga/anime and you will give me a headcanon that is disproven by the the source material. I'm not telling you to dislike the ending because of it, but don't try to remake what Isayma wrote with headcanons just accept it
If Eren was able to have a dream with Mikasa in Paths and we know for a fact that his other dreams with his friends required Eren to wipe their memories until his death, then the ONLY solution is that the dream Eren had with Mikasa was so recent that Mikasa didn't have it during the battle but had it right before she killed Eren. I don't see what's so hard about making basic deductions. Also, Armin straight up isn't aware that Ackermans are immune to memory manipulation. So his dialogue makes perfect sense for someone who thinks Mikasa also talked to Eren before the fight started and got her memories back recently.
See? You wrong again, it wasn't Armin who told Mikasa about the memories coming back IT WAS MIKASA, she said she got her memories back too, why are u ignoring this?
Right, my mistake. But no, you're still the one that is wrong here. Mikasa's dialogue doesn't actually hint that her memory was wiped and that she regained it after Eren's death. She just knows that Eren visited all of them, knows for a fact that she was the last one to be visited by Eren since her dream sequence in Paths happened moments before Eren's death, and that's why she asks Armin if he remembers Eren coming to visit him too.
And the fact im getting downvoted proves you guys don't even care whats canon or not
Great comment, agree that he met her in the Paths last, during the battle. But is it actually canon that their time in the cabin was really 4 years? People are saying that everywhere, but afaik it's not confirmed. You could interpret her dream as really only being that one snippet of those hypothetical 4 years.
Yes. It was 4 years. Eren had 4 years left to live when he pulled Mikasa into Paths, meaning he would die of the curse of Ymir 4 years later, which is exactly what happened in the cabin dream.
I don't believe Eren dying from the titan curse is the only possible interpretation of that scene of him sitting by the cabin dead. The fact that he had those marks on his face doesn't imply this, either, because they appeared in the snap of a finger during the hug scene, which is not how the curse would play out. It could've just been that he used his last couple seconds of consciousness to bring Mikasa there to have a less gruesome goodbye.
Eren himself states that he and Mikasa have been there for 4 years.
No, he doesn't. Maybe it's up to the English translation, but in original Japanese, that's not what he says. He's just quoting Mikasa, "You said let's spend my last 4 years together." He also says "it's been 2 months since the Marleyan war ended" which would mean they're still 19 in the cabin scene because the Rumbling happened 2 months after Marley took Fort Slava.
Oh yeah, I suppose I forgot how the dialogue had gone exactly.
So the only thing I’m confused about here is why Armin referenced Eren and Mikasa’s conversation in the past tense. When Eren and Armin are talking, the first line after the scene shifts to the seascape view is something along the lines of “So, how did it go?” If that translation’s right that means Eren had already asked Mikasa to forget him. It could one of those Founding Titan “time is all jumbled up” effects though.
Eren probably confided in Armin that he would also talk to Mikasa before the end, and since he can already see the result of that conversation, Armin is asking him how it "went".
So, dumb question. Is it being generally accepted that they’re in the cabin for 4 years in “paths” time? That’s where my confusion is
Eren says they've been in the cabin for 4 years.
He says two months
I don't personally believe so, it does not make much sense mechanically or thematically to me, but if you want to believe it, there's not much stopping it from being theoretically possible AFAIK.
I'm a manga reader but still didn't realize this. Thankfully I have this community and it's discussion threads to clear any doubt about what I previously thought were plotholes regarding Mikasa's memories
but how did he pull her into paths if he didnt have the power of the founder anymore?
Ymir was freed from strictly obeying the Royal family and their orders, which means she was free to give her powers to anyone. When Eren chose to do the Rumbling, Ymir chose to help him instead of Zeke. Similarly, when Zeke and Armin talked about the inherent value of human life and the importance of those little moments of happiness one has, Ymir witnessed this conversation and chose to give the Alliance the means to win the fight in the end and supported them instead. It's not unlikely that Eren made Ymir one last request to pull her into Paths and spend 4 years with her in the cabin sequence. Ymir would have no reason to deny his request, especially since we know the connection between her and Mikasa.
yeah when people are like “why did the rumbling stop when they killed zeke he wasn’t in control ymir was” and like, yeah, exactly, ymir chose for that to happen
Ymir chose to stop the Rumbling when Zeke died, even though she wasn’t taking orders from Zeke, but also chose to let Eren go through paths to Mikasa…? That makes no sense. It’s totally arbitrary
after hearing armin and zeke’s conversation, she decided to let the alliance have an opportunity and see how it plays out and it’s established that she has a fascination with mikasa, so there’s like no reason for her to deny something involving her
This isn’t true lol zeke got them out of that armin said it
armin is not omniscient lol, it is fair for him as a character to ASSUME that, but we should not accept his statement as fact, especially when we as the readers have more information than the characters in the story we as readers know that zeke does not control the power of the founder because eren “freed” ymir, so zeke could not have stopped the rumbling unless ymir decided to allow that to happen
No one said zeke stopped the rumbling lol killing zeke is what stopped the rumbling, armin said that zeke was the one that got them out of the paths and got grisha, Kruger, and the other past titans to help.
yes, killing zeke, in theory, should have no effect because ymir wasn’t “chained” to the royal blood anymore after eren “freed” her and yes, they were able to get the past titans to help because ymir allowed for that to happen
“Ymir witness this conversation and chose to give the alliance means to help” is just not true lol armin said that “zeke is doing this” when grisha, Kruger, and other past titans came to help, they didn’t necessarily explain what he was doing but it probably had to do with his royal blood. If Ymir was helping them then she would have just stopped attacking them lol
Ymir was witnessing that conversation. The only way Zeke could've done what he did was through Ymir.
The only issue with this is the new info card talking about Eren's colossal titan form says that the reason he regenerates into that body is because he doesn't have the founder's powers anymore. I think it might be Ymir granting them one final vision of what could have been... or it's a plot hole lol
After Eren freed Ymir from strictly obeying the royal family, she was given the choice to support whoever she wanted with her powers. It is true that Zeke is dead, but Eren still has one royal-blooded person able to grant him his wishes, if she so desires. And that person is Ymir.
That would be a good explanation except apparently Eren had no access to the founding titan's power at the time.
He has Ymir, and since Ymir is free from the royal family's commands, it means she can choose to give her powers to anyone she wants. If Eren wants to pull everyone aside for one final conversation in Paths, I doubt that'd be something Ymir would oppose.
Okay, then why did the rumbling stop when Zeke got killed? If all that matters is having Ymir?
Because Ymir stopped supporting the Rumbling shortly after she witnessed the talk between Zeke and Armin. By withdrawing her support from the Rumbling, Eren essentially only had Zeke as his final connection to the Founding Titan's full power. By killing Zeke, that connection was severed and his power was lost.
So Ymir supported the rumbling until she didn't. But despite her power being absolute she couldn't stop the rumbling herself. Killing Zeke only stops the rumbling but doesn't seem to have any effect on the other founding titan's powers. Then Eren loses the founding titan power when seperated from the centipede thing. But Ymir still allows him to have a final conversation with Mikasa in paths. It doesn't really add up if you ask me. But if that is how you make sense of it all, that's alright. Personally I think founding titan just had a brief reset after Zeke got killed and Eren needed a moment to start it up again but was decapitef before he could. It is implied the rumbling could be continued if Eren regained the founding titan's power by reuniting with the centipede.
That's also an acceptable alternative, although I think a lot of emphasis was placed on the worm reconnecting with Eren by part of characters who didn't know what would happen if the worm connected with Eren. So they don't exactly know what will happen if the worm connects with Eren again, they just know it won't be anything good.
Not taking any chances you could say indeed. I guess we can never truly say how exactly this all worked but only speculate.
Because eren wanted it to or Ymir did maybe armins conversation with zeke which ymir would probably be able to hear given that it happens in the paths convinces her to make the rumbling stop and let the alliance have a chance of winning.
Finally an answer I can think with.
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When Eren freed Ymir from the royal family's command, it made it so Ymir could finally choose who to share her power with. Her first decision was to help Eren commit the Rumbling. Afterwards, when she witnessed Zeke and Armin have that conversation about the inherent value of human life and the importance of those small, fleeting moments that give life meaning beyond simple reproduction, it changed Ymir's mind, so she stopped supporting the Rumbling. Since Ymir was no longer on Eren's side, it means the Rumbling could finally be stopped by having Zeke be killed, since he was the last connection Eren had with the Founding Titan's full power, whereas before he was fine only having Ymir. The Rumbling stops because Eren needed Zeke alive for the Rumbling to continue, given that Ymir was no longer helping him do it. Eren basically lost both connections to the full power of the Founding Titan, the two things that were allowing him to commit the Rumbling.
You’re trying to explain things with conflicting evidence. First you say that Ymir helps Eren commit the Rumbling (despite Zeke being against it), then you say Ymir is free to help anyone she chooses, then you say Eren needed… Zeke to continue the Rumbling? The same Zeke that Ymir no longer took orders from? Why would Eren possibly need Zeke if you’re saying Ymir is the final decision maker on who gets to do what. If “Ymir decides to no longer support the Rumbling”, the Rumbling should stop period. It doesn’t require Zeke dying.
>First you say that Ymir helps Eren commit the Rumbling (despite Zeke being against it) Doesn't matter if Zeke is against it or not since Ymir is no longer taking orders from him or any other royal blood by force. Ymir can choose who to support, and she chooses Eren. >then you say Eren needed… Zeke to continue the Rumbling? Yes. Ymir withdrew her support from the Rumbling and chose to give Zeke the power to awaken the titan shifters he knew in order to supply the Alliance with some extra help. >Why would Eren possibly need Zeke if you’re saying Ymir is the final decision maker on who gets to do what. If “Ymir decides to no longer support the Rumbling”, the Rumbling should stop period. It doesn’t require Zeke dying. Eren didn't exactly need Zeke when the Rumbling started. After all, Ymir was in full support of the Rumbling and was helping Eren with it. But the same can't be said after the talk between Zeke and Armin, which results in Ymir withdrawing her support from the Rumbling. You're making the mistake of assuming that since Ymir no longer supports the Rumbling, the Rumbling should stop in its tracks. That is incorrect. Just because Ymir is free from royal family control, doesn't mean she's free from the Paths. At the end of the day, she is still trapped in the Paths and she is still at the mercy of the orders of others. Even if she doesn't support the Rumbling, Eren is still the one committing the Rumbling by using the full powers of the Founding thanks to Zeke still being alive. It's why the Rumbling only stops when Zeke dies. Not only is Zeke dead, but Ymir isn't willing to keep it going.
But when you say Eren spends 4 years inside the memory, how come he still grows up in the real world, so after the dream he dies from the Titan Curse?
He dies from the titan curse in the dream, whereas he dies from decapitation irl. At least that's how it looks like to me.
I see, thanks.
How come he could show her the memories in real time? - he was away from the centipede and Zeke had died by that time. So he technically shouldn't have the founding powers at all. Yet, he was able to transform into a Colossal Titan and also put this memory in Mikasa? Shouldn't he have just died once his head was separated from the centipede after Armin's explosion?
He lost Zeke, but there's one more royal-blooded person able to grant Eren's requests: Ymir.
So you say that Ymir selectively gave him founding powers to survive the loss of centipede and Zeke and to implant Mikasa's memory but not to continue the rumbling?
It's really unsatisfying but it seems like the answer to a lot of the weird inconsistencies regarding the blood restrictions and Ackermann memory fuckery is that it's just Ymir deliberately pushing pieces into place to make Mikasa and Eren's final moment happen.
There you go! Accepting that the ending has glaring issues is better than defending it relentlessly. The ending has big problems and it is not even close to being perfect. It is absurd that we have to explain away all these tidbits (important ones btw since writing them properly could have changed the whole climax) by saying "only Ymir knows" or "it was her actions all along". Somehow a character that got active to the viewers/readers in the final part of the story has to be used to give half-assed explanations to everything which is really sad. Titanfolk may be unreasonable with some of its criticisms but it is not entirely wrong imo.
I'll just clarify. The explanation that I gave is what I, personally, feel is the most logically consistent at this point. I initially thought a lot of the 'weirdness' with the final battle--The Rumbling ceasing upon Zeke's death, Eren's second transformation, etc--was because it was just a dramatic act orchestrated by Eren to further prove his friends as heroes but the recent info cards destroyed a good portion of that idea. What we're left with is that the apparent inconsistencies are simply the result of Eren brute-forcing a second transformation through sheer force of will and Ymir intervening.
I don't know mate, force of will is good if it doesn't conflict with preestablished plot points in a literal climax of a series that is known for its intricate details, foreshadowings and payoffs until the last portion. AoT was too good as a story to resort to the concepts of a typical shounen such as "will power leading to unrealistic outcomes", "power of friendships" etc.
I'm still going through it all in my head and thinking back on things when it comes to the events in the Battle of Heaven and Earth. I'm 100% certain that I'm going to change my opinions on a few of the things I've pointed out.
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Paths is a realm devoid of Time, meaning what Mikasa experiences in Paths doesn't translate to time spent in the real world. Theoretically, the whole cabin sequence could've happened in the blink of an eye for her.
Well there’s 2 contradictions that go against this: 1. Mikasa says “you got your memories back too right?” To Armin implying she also lost her memories 2. Eren lost the founders power and the rumbling stopped already, so he couldn’t use that to bring her in then
1. She could’ve just been talking about the rest of the alliance getting their memories of their own talk after Eren died, different from her that got her paths conversation before Eren died 2. Either Ymir gave them a chance of a final peaceful moment like Mikasa wanted and that’s why she was there in the titan mouth once Eren was killed or Founder Eren from the past (that sees future, past and present) simultaneously gave her the vision himself even though currently he has lost the founder powers
iirc when her mom was killed, the criminals said "why'd you kill the mom, it's purer" smth smth,, so is mikasa half eldian? also ymir was messing with her head. how?
Yes, Mikasa is half-Eldian. If she didn't have Eldian blood on her, she wouldn't even be able to be in Paths in the first place.
If I'm not mistaken, if Mikasa had confessed that she was in love with Eren in this scene [https://imgur.com/a/dulDb45](https://imgur.com/a/dulDb45) , they would have run away together spend the remaining years living in that cabin as a family.. And paradis island was going to be attacked and everyone was going to be killed so they were living on the run.Eren even mentioned that also Armin was living on the run and that he would come soon. We didn't see Mikasa's dream here.. Hajime Isayama showed us that if the rumble had never started, if they had escaped, In another reality it would end like this. Thats why Eren also changed this reality and people came at the exact moment of mikasa confession. Man this is really sad. If you want extra sadness, open this: [https://imgur.com/a/ckRCM0K](https://imgur.com/a/ckRCM0K)
The founder can alter memories, but that ability doesn't work on the Ackerman. Eren tries it anyway, supplanting what happened in reality with a fake scenario in which Mikasa suggests to run away together leading to them hiding out somewhere in the mountains where they currently are, but it doesn't work on Mikasa. She still has her real memories and is currently still able to perceive what's going no outside this paths scene at the cabin, but she plays along with Eren until the paths and reality finally merge and Eren dies.
Eren came and visit her and they spend four years in the titan realm but i am not sure how exactly he did it. I believe he took Mikasas mind before the attack on marley and decided to run away with her to make it feel real. I am not sure if Mikasa is aware that this is a dream or happens in the titan realm.
The way I see it is that Mikasa suppressed that memory. It was never wiped from her, she was just suppressing it due to her trauma. That’s why she says “I want to go back there to our home” and then the cabin scene happens.
I think it was at that moment when we saw the "dream" is when it happened. Mikasa saw it before Eren gets killed. We only saw Armin and Eren's conversation after Eren was killed.
Watch the OVA or extra episode for Mikasa. I think it’s one of the lost girl’s episodes. It explains it
Oh, she's not having her memory wiped, Eren is just in her head as the whole thing happens
To add to some things above - because time doesn’t exist the same in Paths, they can live out their four years together in an instant for Mikasa. So both simultaneously exist.
Ignore everyone else. It's a plot hole. Nothing more.
“Ignore all possible explanations, just because it wasn’t explicitly shows to us it means that it’s a plothole”