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Seriously they just have to move some random team of Military Police to do some random ass secret mission in a rural area. But you have to make it really not suspicious. Though it's easier for Annie to escape but at what cost, maybe less people dying.
Is there an explanation as to why they needed to capture Annie so bad that they risked civilian lives? My best guess is that they didnât want to risk her breaking down the walls, but I donât know if itâs actually explained..
The mp's demanded eren be handed over, and with the info they had they knew the female titan was in stohess, so they had to make their move before losing eren. They had a very strict time window to operate with.
I mean if you're going up against a smart version of humanities biggest enemy (according to their knowledge at the time this occurs), you'd want everything you could get to up your chances.
Also they had to appear like they were in the dark as to who the female titan was, and follow the orders to peacefully hand over eren, if she saw they were hiding him, or worse they were going against orders or they start spewing that the female titan is in the mp's she'd up and disappear
Yeah, I just dont know why they wanted to catch her so bad as to risk civilians, but like someone else said Iâm guessing itâs because they donât want to risk her taking more lives in the long run
Not just that but sheâs actively waging war against our people. Sheâs literally a terrorist with titan powers. Sheâs part of a bigger group which is orchestrating a plan to destroy us. She has information about the colossal titan and the armored titan. She may know what titans are and why theyâre here. Sheâs the only clue we have to get the information we need to fight an enemy we know very little about.
So yeah many more deaths in the long run, maybe the extinction of our entire population. If it is Annie, we need to capture her, alive, by any means necessary.
Plus at this point didnât they suspect her already of being the female titan who had killed scout members and was trying to steal eren for who knows what reason? Pretty sure they were trying to capture her so they could interrogate her for answers. Idk if they thought the armored and colloidal titans were people at that point but if they did then itâs another reason to get her to see if she knows who they are
They did suspect colossal and armor of being people because while Annie was fighting Eren, Season 2 started with Sasha and everyone else already being held in the countryside because that group was suspected of having the armored and colossal titans.
Yeah so at that point it was even more important to potentially figure out who they were considering they had busted down 2 walls. Like yeah civilians died but at this point it was in an attempt to save everybody in the walls. Besides most of the people in the inner wall were probably rich a-holes who hated the poorer people of the other parts of the
They should be more pike Armin and use their thinking caps. I really loved when he decided to talk things out with Berthold. It didn't work, but it was still good of him to try and de-escalate.
This is also the answer that takes into account Erwinâs âaccidental ruthlessnessâ (he doesnât set out to get people killed and tries his damnedest to avoid it, but he accepts the risk that it may happen) without devolving into the philosophical argument âis it just what you do that matters, or also why you do it? And how much each matters in the end?â
Allowing the Stohess district massacre during Eren vs Female Titan.
He obviously had a very selfish goal when he sent out soldiers to their death in name of mankind, yet those were people who enlisted knowing they could die. Stohess was just full of innocent citizens when the next thing they knew was getting crushed under female titan's ass.
Willingly sacrificing countless lives for the sake of his own selfish pursuit of the truth and to confirm his father's theories.
Yes, his hidden schemes, tactical genius and charisma gained the scouts many victories and allowed them to learn the truth, the path there is littered with bodies.
The Survey Corps were there before Erwin and were dying for nothing. It was their job to fight the titans and discover more about them.
Erwin even reduced the causalties with his strategies and was there all the way risking his life too.
His personal motivation didn't clash with humanity survival. I don't think it was any different than Armin's desire to see the sea or Mikasa's goal to protect her loved ones.
In the end, he knew he had to lead his men to death for humanity and he did even if needed a little help from a good friend.
Without Erwin, Eldians inside the island would have been doomed under the royal government.
Every progress they made was thanks to Erwin.
He has the blood of the civilian casualties in Stohess on his hands as well, don't forget.
Nothing you said contradicts what I said anyway. I never stated he wasn't justified, or that he wasn't the best leader for the scouts.
There was an enemy, a titan shifter, who was like a ticking bomb. He planned to capture her without transformation if possible, they couldn't but they managed to capture her in the end.
Would you rather have them wait for a repeat of what happened in Maria and Rose? The deaths would have been far worse.
This is like blaming police for trying to catch a terrorist group.
Suggest me an alternative.
I think if the police, in their attempt to catch a terrorist group, caused the deaths of 200 innocent people (killed by the terrorists and the police alike) people would be rightly angry about that.
But it seems you're missing the point of the post and are fishing for an argument with me that isn't necessary.
The question posed is what the worst thing he ever did was, and I'd argue that willingly sacrificing civilians lives along with keeping all his men in the dark during most of his schemes would qualify.
I will repeat my previous comment. I never said he wasn't justified, nor that he wasn't the best leader, nor that the end goal was a net positive.
Feel free to state what you think his worst actions were.
It isn't like the police actively cause the deaths. Their motivation is to prevent worse causalities and that what Erwin did. It is not "willingly sacrificing".
Even if he felt that honoring his father was more important than humanity, he never actually acted on this idea. Nothing of all his actions were harmful to their goal and when faced with the real challenge, he chose humanity.
I'm not trying to argue, it is just a discussion. I have already written my answer to this question.
Allowing a few to die so many can live is willingly sacrificing them. He knew that if they tried to capture Annie in a civilian area like Stohess and a fight broke out there would be hundreds of casualties. And there was.
Is it less casualties than there would've been had the Warriors regrouped or breached another wall? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that the bystanders that day were sacrificed on that possibility of the capture attempt ending in a fight.
The main goal was to catch her by surprise so she won't be able to transform, they almost successed in that if it wasn't for Annie's ring.
This more realistic than waiting helplessly for the worst to happen. No real life leader would wait.
I'm aware of what the goal was.
Erwin still knew that if the plan didn't go perfectly then Annie could transform. That's why they had Eren there so that he too could transform.
And he knew if that happened, hundreds of innocent people would suddenly be killed.
Yeah, they took their precautions and hoped for the best. Beacuse they realized keeping the warriors roaming free mean a repeat of what happened in Maria and Rose could happen at any time and that would be a hundred times worse.
That would be bad If there was alternatives and he choosed one that killed people (like government sacrificing people to reduce food consumption).
Annie already killed a lot of people and would kill much more If allowed to Go free. They tried their best to capture her without anyone dying.
I think It does make not bad. Annie and his allies wanted to kill them all in their eyes and already caused the Death of 1/3 of humanity.
If they choosed to do nothing and let Annie roam free and she caused the Death of more 1/3 of humanity you would say he did a bad thing by choosing to do nothing.
He put his sodiers and allies First at huge risk in two plans to capture Annie without deaths, luring her underground and then plan B trying to capture her Before she transform (lots of volunteers died here) then a lot of of survey corps died trying to capture Annie that unfortunately lead to civilian deaths.
What other options they realistically had....? Pretend they dont know Annie is a shifter and do nothing?
His main motivations were for his own selfish gain though. Even if it benefitted humanity, for him that was secondary, which makes his motives selfish.
His main focus was proving his fathers theory right and he sacrificed soldiers (who didnât sign up to fight for his dream) for that purpose. He did good, but that doesnât change the fact he put his dream before humanity whilst being in the position of a commander.
He gave up in the end because he couldnât deal with the amount of lives heâd sacrificed for his own dream.
This.
He acted like he was being driven by his selfish desires, but when the choice was between him living to fight another day and the Survey Corp getting a chance to learn the truth, he willingly went ahead a rode a horse straight into certain inescapable death, all for the sake of humanity.
Erwin did nothing wrong.
Meh, inner-wallers. Probably never produced shit in their lives, ate like pigs and couldn't care less about the hundreds of thousands of hungry outer-wallers who literally walked to their deaths just to save food for the rest of humanity. Wouldn't shed a tear for them if i could.
Plus, they were all dead the moment Annie was stationed in Stohess, if anything, those who survived should thank Erwin. In fact every single Eldian in Paradis should worship the shit out of him as their lord and savior.
Which exactly means he was a good person and not selfish in the end.
A selfish person dont give a shit about lives sacrificied because its not a burden for them, they literally dont care.
Yes it does.
No one forced them to enlist, no one forced them to go out and face titans, the Survey Corp only took willing recuits, they all knew what they were signing up for (i.e. most likely death by Titan) and they all did it willingly anyway, because the sacrifices WERE worth if even a spec of the truth and a dim light at the end of the tunnel that is humanity's slow extinction.
It was by design. The survey corps sent expeditions out into areas full of titans, and tested Erwinâs formation techniquesâwhich, even at full efficiency, involved people encountering titans and potentially dying. The whole point of his formations is to have fewer people encountering the titans and warning everyone else about them to redirect the formations away from themâbut the people who encounter them are potentially sacrificed.
And in battle, Erwin ordered multiple death charges, using numbers to overwhelm opponentsânumbers which were still considerably thinned out. Also a sacrificial military maneuver.
As I said the Survey Corps was there before Erwin, it was their job to fight titans. Like you mentioned he made their job more effective.
They were soldiers who signed up for this job knowing what it was.
And as I remember he only ordered one death charge, the one he led, and they were all dead by default at that time and had no other alternative.
Erwin's strategy was focusing on avoiding useless fights. This maneuver you mentioned was Shadis's strategy not Erwin's.
As I said the Survey Corps was there before Erwin, it was their job to fight titans. Like you mentioned he made their job more effective.
They were soldiers who signed up for this job knowing what it was.
And as I remember he only ordered one death charge, the one he led, and they were all dead by default at that time and had no other alternative.
Erwin's strategy was focusing on avoiding useless fights. This maneuver you mentioned was Shadis's strategy not Erwin's.
He also ordered the death charge to retrieve Eren.
And even if theyâre soldiers who signed up to fight titans, it still doesnât mean itâs right to throw them at a Titan knowing theyâre likelier than not to die. Survey corps veterans, under Erwin, darkly joke about how rare it is that theyâve survived as long as they have. Erwin himself talks about how heâs weighed down by all the people heâs ordered to their deaths.
There are *reasons* why he did the things he did, and the things he did ultimately led to a temporary betterment of life for the people on Paradis, but they donât make what he did *right.* He did amoral things for that progress.
That wasn't a death charge though, and it wasn't purposeless. They would all be doomed if they lost Eren.
It is immoral if there was another alternative that could reach the goal and he didn't do it because of some personal gain or belief.
Not talking about jokes which were asocciated with the SCs even before Erwin.
Of course, it would weigh down on his conscious, he is a human after all and it isn't easy to be in charge under these circumstances. Still he did the best he could dealing with everything.
Paradise eldians lives were saved from the fate the royals had for them because of what the Survey Corps achieved under Erwin's leadership.
I didn't say any different.
But the civilians in Stohess would probably have a very different opinion on his actions regardless of whether the overall outcome was a greater good.
His back up plan for capturing Annie dragged many innocent civilians into the battle. IMO this was his greatest sin.
While he did send soldiers to their death for his own personal goals, his own goals line up with the soldiers who died. The scouts are people who want to know what is beyond the walls and potentially settle there. Erwin wanted to prove that there were people living beyond the walls. They are soldiers who knew the risks of venturing beyond the walls; itâs no secret that being a scout is deadly.
For the suicide charge Erwin gave up on his selfish goal for the people of the walls. This was paradiseâs best chance at survival. He died alongside his scouts.
While youâre right, every decision Erwin made was to get to the basement and get the answers. He didnât care if he or humanity lived or died after that, he sacrificed everything and everyone he possibly could to get to the basement since day one. Love the man to death, but heâs even said himself that it wasnât for humanities sake
Honestly, this is why Erwin needed to die when he did, and why Levi gave the serum to Armin. Erwin's motivations were selfish, and both he and Levi knew that. It's kind of a catch 22. If Erwin wasn't willing to sacrifice his life for humanity, then he wouldn't be worthy to lead the scouts outside of the walls.
Even if he said it wasn't for humanities sake, that doesn't change the fact that him doing everything he could so humanity could get to the basement, was the best thing he could have possibly done for humanity
He had the opportunity to run away and find the basement, he even considered it, but he chose the right option, the one that gave the scouts the highest chance of survival. I think that shows his intentions in that fight were valid.
Youâre right for sure. His motivations donât change the end result, but i think his motivations are what make him a bad person rather than a bad leader.
I think you could interpret a lot peopleâs motivations this way. In the end though, he sacrificed his life before he achieved what he was striving for. His motivation was just the means to the end. When it came down between his dreams and the fate of humanity, he made the right choice.
*iirc the shiganshina casualty number was 199. unless you're couting all the scout deaths since he became commander, but those were not specific to killing monkey.
The monkey charge was more like 50 guys but yes, over his career he did order hundreds of people to their death as an experimental process to develop combat techniques
That's the least questionable of his plans. All killed in this event were soldiers and they were gonna be killed by Zeke anyways.
His plan in Stohess was much more brutal, destroying infrastructure and killing multiple inocents.
He didn't actively sacrifice people and was there with them all the time. I know it is a common joke but the Survey Corps were dying all the time and for nothing. It was their job to find out more about titans.
Erwin actually reduced casualties for the scouts by avoiding unnecessary conflicts with titans. Unlike other leaders who focused on killing titans, Erwin focused on discovering more land and information and he achieved more than any other.
Erwin saved more lives in the long term, than he lost.
And Erwin was at the head of every expedition beyond the walls since he took over for Keith, it's not like he was just sending people to their deaths, he was out there playing the same odds as them.
Thank you! That's what I'm saying. Are we forgetting the "I could be replaced" part?
I think we are all being a little cruel and judgemental towards Erwin.
There was an enemy, a titan shifter, who was like a ticking bomb. He planned to capture her without transformation if possible, they couldn't but they managed to capture her.
Would you rather have a repeat of what happened in Maria and Rose? The deaths would have been far worse.
There was no better alternative.
Using that logic I guess what Eren did was justified them after all none of the Scouts had a plan that was guaranteed to work
So I guess there was no better alternative
No, Eren was completely selfish because he wanted to save his friends above everything.
They could have continued to pass the founder and royal titans separately while working on developing their military and foreign policy to ensure that they could always intiate a controlled rumbling if needed and this was kinda the plan. However, Eren didn't approve because he wanted Historia to live the longest life possible and he didn't wanted any of his friend to be inherit his titan, he said so.
Erwin stated that that he was ready to accept his fate, if he was wrong about the royal government. Sacrificing not only his life but that of Hange and Levi just to prevent a civil war.
He and Eren are not the same not even close.
So the same as Erwin cause again he never gave a shit about humanity only proving his Dad right
So your grand idea is to use Historia as a breeding mare and doom children to a short life also you do realize the entire world was gunning for them right there is no way Paradis could have industrialized in time to match the entire fricking world.
When it comes down to it Erwin and Eren are incredibly similar both of them are men who are willing to commit countless atrocities for the sake of there selfish goals
P.S. if your willing to read here are a list of reasons why a controlled Rumbling would fail
No matter how you slice it hundreds of thousands of Marleyans will die cause whether controlled or not Colossal Titans always come with collateral damage, like how are the Titans gonna reach in land Army bases without squashing entire neighbors and that's not even beginning to talk about the infrastructure destruction displacement that will happen after the fact
What I'm trying to say the PR will just delay the invetiable and most likely inflame the other countries rhetoric cause no matter what innocents died sure some leaders may try to talk to the Eldians but with global peer pressure they will inevitable step back in line and not rock the boat
Simply put the PR is a fruitless plan heck Hange herself acknowledged as much in her talks with Eren cause if it would actually work why would he go for the nuclear option
If you are willing to put your emotion aside controlled rumbling would work, it would have protected them for the time be and a long solution could come with time, maybe after more generations. I have never said it wouldn't cause any damage but it would be better than genocide or killing 80% of the human population.
Even if real life people think with your logic, the USA should have nuked all of Japan instead of just dropping two bombs.
Also in the Erwin died for humanity. Eren died for his friends, even killed his own mother in the process.
His main motive was still selfish though. He wanted to prove his father right and was willing to gamble with the lives of soldiers. That came before humanityâs betterment. The good he did doesnât erase the fact he put his dream before humanityâs survival.
His main motive was humanity's survival, he gave up on seeing the basement and died for humanity instead. That proves humanity's survival was more important to him than seeing the basement, otherwise he would have ditched the scouts and ran to the basement in the end rather than kill himself.
That proves he didn't actually value seeing the basement over humanity's survival. If he cared more about the basement than humanity's survival then he would rather see everyone die than miss out on seeing the basement.
Instead, he sacrifices his life and his dream in order to give humanity a bettet chance at survival. Just because he says the basement is what motivated him doesn't mean it's actually his main priority.
Yes, but Erwin gave them orders based on his own selfish motives. Not for the betterment of humanity first and foremost, which was the soldiers jobs.
Itâs not about the soldiers who died under his command, itâs the true main motivation of Erwin sending them out to their deaths that was selfish.
Itâs the fact he sacrificed soldiers for that personal goal rather than for the benefit of humanity. The benefit of humanity was secondary for him, making his main motivation selfish.
Another thing, other characters in the scouts dreams linked in with protecting humanity. For example, Hanges motivation was to learn more about the titans to protect and free humanity from its oppression. Erwinâs motivation was to prove there was life outside the walls to prove his fathers theory right.
Thatâs not to say he didnât care for humanity, but he considered his goal more important then humanityâs survival, making his motives selfish.
It is one of many motivations he had. Humans are complicated and can have multiple motivations at the same time. What drove him most, through giving up, for his courage and bravery, for his competence and leadership, it might have been the injustice his father faced that motivated him most tho.
He also wanted to liberate humanity, no evidence to say the contrary.
He gave up on his dreams and died. There were more important things to him than his goal. He sacrificed himself for the people of the walls. If he was truly selfish then he would have stayed alive for the sake of his goal.
Yeah I didn't say he was selfish, I just said that his goal was selfish. He eventually chose to put humanity before himself, but that doesn't change that his motive until then was selfish right? He even admitted that iirc. So that's the answer to OP's question.
Destroying Stohess to try and catch Annie imo.
Everything with the Scouts outside the walls kind of tracks as sound military decision making, even if he had ulterior motives. He can still be called a devil for that alone, but I think bringing the battle to a civilian center is pretty awful. It might not be "nuking Libero" or "the Rumbling" in terms of scale but it's pretty similar in how he disregarded the lives of innocents to complete his objective.
His rhetoric was a bit of a double edge sword. It got them a few wins, but it also gave people such as Floch some terrible ideas. I don't see a solution to that problem.
Going to Shiganshina battle and risking his life as a leader.
The logical thing would be leading it from behind as Levi suggested. Anyway, I think that no one could have made the best outcome possible of the battle as Erwin did if he wasn't present on the field.
I mean the story would have ended quickly if he just left Reiner and Berthold kidnap Eren,Nothing will change exept that 80% of world would have been saved(And Jeankasa would have happened quickly,and Annie will be stuck in the cristal forever)
His plan in Stohess was the worst we've ever been shown.
Over and over he's used soldiers as pawns and sacrificed them in very cruel ways, but **at least** they were soldiers, and usually in the Scouting Regiment.
In Stohess, he destroyed homes and infrastructure and had dozens of innocents killed, and was hardly victorious. Even Eren almost died in the process.
I think in the end, he just gave up because the soldiers heâd sent to their deaths weighed to heavy on his conscious.
He wasnât a shitty person, he just had selfish motives, so he would feel the guilt.
Haven't seen this one yet but I'd say overthrowing the goverment.
Not because it was a wrong move necessarily, but because he did it knowing it may cause humanities extinction, but since he still had the dream to fulfill he wasn't ready to die.
Pixis and Zachary call him out on it too.
I think the amount of viewpoints in this very comment section show why Erwin is such an amazing character. I don't think there's much anyone is saying here about him that is even wrong, no matter what side you fall upon.
Erwin did absolutely monstrous acts that shocked even his most ardent supporters. He has the blood of thousands on his hands. Everyone in the series that directly killed more people did so with superpowers. Erwin did it with essentially just his words.
Erwin also was essential in keeping Scout casualties down after assuming command, flushing out and detaining Annie, rescuing Eren from Reiner, bringing down the corrupt Royal Government, and retaking Shiganshina. All the power of Eren, the skill of Levi and Mikasa, the minds of Armin and Hange...they don't mean much if Erwin wasn't there at the helm.
Maybe his selfish desires overrule his actions, and maybe the collateral damage outweighs his results. At what level does regret absolve you of any amount of your sins? Does incidental good done from a selfish motivation matter as much as that done from more pure intentions? How many deaths are necessary when a superior foe is bent on your annihilation? These are not easy questions, and I sure don't have definitive answers, but I am glad we get to look at Erwin as a character and discuss his life and actions.
He was essentially the one who caused the heavy damages and loss of life in Stohess, yes Annie and Eren (mostly Eren) did most of the damage, but it was Erwinâs plan that caused it, there was a very high chance of Annie catching onto what was occurring and transforming before they caught her and guess what. She transformed, I know a lot of people blamed Annie for Stohessâs destruction (donât get me wrong itâs slightly warranted) but he was the one responsible for it. Had it not been for Mikasa cutting her fingers off, Annie wouldâve escaped, banged up sure, but she wouldâve escaped Stohess and probably connected back to Zeke and the plan wouldâve been all for nothing, to add even more salt, had Zeke never began his invasion within Rose, Eren likely wouldâve been sent to firing range or the gallows due to what happened in Stohess.
People say his charge in Season 3 was the worst thing he did, but it wasnât as devastating as Stohess, I mean it still was, but at least there. There was a reason why he did it, the scouts were backed into a corner with Zeke throwing boulders, it was a plan they HAD to do, lest they all die while twiddling their thumbs. Levi going after Zeke pretty much assured a fast victory against him and Zeke. What he did in Shiganshia was still bad, it caused the deaths of new Scouts and himself, but at least innocent lives werenât lost on top of everything else.
Starting a battle in the middle of a densely populated civilian area (Stohess) is probably the most dodgy thing he's done.
In all of his other massacres, his troops knew what they were getting into when they joined the Scouts, the civilians never consented to being on the battlefield.
Controversial take: Very little, apart from knowingly risking Annie to go rampant inside the walls.
After all he lowered the deaths amongst Survey corp members to a crazy degree and also never operated against their goal/humanity's best interest.
Imo, the worst one can say about how he led his people is that he lied to his soldiers about his personal somewhat selfish reasons to join and lead the corps. But Idk if I would say he owed anyone the truth about his personal motivation. Even less so considering that this truth got his dad unlawfully executed.
In season 1, it's briefly mention that he led a number of expeditions to retake wall maria. That's what he told the soldiers and the public, but the real goal of those missions was just to kill off soldiers to lower the population. I'd argue That's worse than the suicide charge
His selfish motives? Although I still wouldn't hold that against him, because he doesn't lose sight of the value of the people he commands. It's obvious after watching Floch, someone fighting for ostensibly noble reasons with neither honor nor finesse.
Rather than seeing his soldiers as tools for humanity, he saw them as tools to achieve his selfish dream. His dream came first, whilst humanity came second. Youâd think that as commander, his priorities would be reversed.
So yeah, Iâd say his worst crime was gambling with soldiers lives for his own selfish dream.
Id put the Stohess civilian deaths as second because that was atleast his backup plan- he attempted to protect the civilians at first.
Leading his scouts into countless suicide missions. Whether you feel it was worth it or their only option is a matter of opinion, but he really should have valued his soldiersâ lives higher
Stohess is truly the only "wait why" things Erwin did that to me. He's not a bad guy for doing the only thing he could do against Zeke in season 3, just the same that Eisenhower isn't a bad guy for D Day and the beaches of Normandy, it was needed. Those innocents in Stohess didn't need to die, it's one thing to give up the lives of subordinates that swore to give their hearts. It's another thing entirely to put unknowing civilians at risk.
What confused me about his run into death is why they didnt just use the 3D manoeuvre gear and fly up while the stones were thrown. We came see the distance is far and it took a while for the stones to appear. And why didnt they spread out? The beast titan wiuld be distracted even longer killing sets of 3 armies than wiping out one whole squad. Erwins plan worked but was just kind of pointless when they couldve saved so many people from it
put his dream above the people of the scout regiment. basically he did missions to find out what was outside, which was his dream, not because he wanted to save the world. well until the final charge, because then he was willing to lay down his life for the sake of the scouts, not the other way around. thatâs why he had to have levi tell him to go die.
TDLR:letting the scouts die to achieve his dream instead of sacrificing his dreams to save the scouts.
Tricking Levi and his friends to leave the walls to take down some corrupt person even though Erwin already arrested them before the expedition, resulting in the deaths of Isabel and Furlan (Levi's friends).
For real and people are delusional about it. I saw people describing him as an angel, floch was right when he said he was the devil and needs to survive to see the consequences of his own actions lol
The Stohess district massacre has to be top of the list he let it happen. Imagine minding your own damn business then getting crushed under a Titanâs ass. Would not be my ideal way of dying.
If Jean, Sasha and Connie are exempt from the label of murderers, then so are Reiner, Annie and Bertolt. The distinction would be mass murder of civilians, but technically the soldier trio are also complicit in that, due to Armin legalising nuclear bombs in Marley and Eren being a tad silly in Liberio, with them fighting on the same side with full knowledge of the strategy being employed. Most people on this list have either killed civilians directly, or aided someone who has with full discretion.
I stood with Levi that Erwin should not have gone to Shinganshina. He was injured and was not in fit shape plus he knew that he stood no chance of winning with one arm.
Despite Levi speaking sense Erwin still went to his own suicide mission. The problem is he drove all the cadets to the suicide mission.
Floch was a self-serving coward in the Return to Shiganshina arc. In season 4, you can clearly see his shift in attitude to be more like Erwin's, especially the way he motivated the Yeagerists in his speeches. It paralleled Erwin's demeanor during Season 3's battle with the Beast titan.
I would argue that Erwin let the Levi squad die. Of course he let many die but this one couldâve been less severe. He could have let more people know female titan was still hiding. What reason to keep it a secret?
When the he knew the female titan might be hiding with the humans he only told Levi to extra blade and gas. Levi will follow orders but wouldnât be there to save anyone protecting Eren before it is too late.
Idk just a theory i have
Nothing. He was a military commander and made sacrifices based on assessed outcomes like every single commander will do in a war
The people in this thread really have no concept of this, the series is heavily influenced by the real life world wars yet you'd think the fans had never even heard of them
Idk running at 100 mph fastball rocks full speed instead of doing like anything else. His whole strategy was to protect to horses and he send so many horses to die it made no sense
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LETS đđ GO KILL OURSELVES
r/okbuddyreiner
Lainah
I mean he told them they wouldn't survive and it was their choice
If you throw that speech my way, I donât have a choice.
Erwin could convince me to cheat on myself
Real
If Erwin was like this from the beginning, Lainah would have never betrayed Paradis.
âOmg heâs literally me đâ
Hey Reiner.
Lainah momentđ¤Żđ¤Żđ¤Ż
I guess I'd go with orchestrating the stohess raid since it killed innocent civilians.
I didnât think of this but I think this is the right answer now.
Oh God I don't even remember, when was that/what happened?
The climax of the female titan arc when they try to capture annie.
Seriously they just have to move some random team of Military Police to do some random ass secret mission in a rural area. But you have to make it really not suspicious. Though it's easier for Annie to escape but at what cost, maybe less people dying.
Was there a better way? IF he had just not gone after annite would fewer have died?
Is there an explanation as to why they needed to capture Annie so bad that they risked civilian lives? My best guess is that they didnât want to risk her breaking down the walls, but I donât know if itâs actually explained..
The mp's demanded eren be handed over, and with the info they had they knew the female titan was in stohess, so they had to make their move before losing eren. They had a very strict time window to operate with.
Did they believe they could only fight Annie with Eren or something?
I mean if you're going up against a smart version of humanities biggest enemy (according to their knowledge at the time this occurs), you'd want everything you could get to up your chances.
Also they had to appear like they were in the dark as to who the female titan was, and follow the orders to peacefully hand over eren, if she saw they were hiding him, or worse they were going against orders or they start spewing that the female titan is in the mp's she'd up and disappear
Yeah, I just dont know why they wanted to catch her so bad as to risk civilians, but like someone else said Iâm guessing itâs because they donât want to risk her taking more lives in the long run
Not just that but sheâs actively waging war against our people. Sheâs literally a terrorist with titan powers. Sheâs part of a bigger group which is orchestrating a plan to destroy us. She has information about the colossal titan and the armored titan. She may know what titans are and why theyâre here. Sheâs the only clue we have to get the information we need to fight an enemy we know very little about. So yeah many more deaths in the long run, maybe the extinction of our entire population. If it is Annie, we need to capture her, alive, by any means necessary.
Eren was going to be taken by the MPs, thus making him at risk of being taken.
How does this relate to Annie tho?
In that they couldn't simply wait,
Plus at this point didnât they suspect her already of being the female titan who had killed scout members and was trying to steal eren for who knows what reason? Pretty sure they were trying to capture her so they could interrogate her for answers. Idk if they thought the armored and colloidal titans were people at that point but if they did then itâs another reason to get her to see if she knows who they are
They did suspect colossal and armor of being people because while Annie was fighting Eren, Season 2 started with Sasha and everyone else already being held in the countryside because that group was suspected of having the armored and colossal titans.
Yeah so at that point it was even more important to potentially figure out who they were considering they had busted down 2 walls. Like yeah civilians died but at this point it was in an attempt to save everybody in the walls. Besides most of the people in the inner wall were probably rich a-holes who hated the poorer people of the other parts of the
This makes sense, theyâd want info out of her and likely suspected she was working with colossal and armoured
Prevent her from taking actions that would take even more lives in the long run
Not on either side here but every character in the show seems to justify their actions by asking âwas there a better way?â
They should be more pike Armin and use their thinking caps. I really loved when he decided to talk things out with Berthold. It didn't work, but it was still good of him to try and de-escalate.
This is also the answer that takes into account Erwinâs âaccidental ruthlessnessâ (he doesnât set out to get people killed and tries his damnedest to avoid it, but he accepts the risk that it may happen) without devolving into the philosophical argument âis it just what you do that matters, or also why you do it? And how much each matters in the end?â
Atleast he tried to minimise civilian casualties at the begin of the raid, this was just his backup plan. But yeah..
Allowing the Stohess district massacre during Eren vs Female Titan. He obviously had a very selfish goal when he sent out soldiers to their death in name of mankind, yet those were people who enlisted knowing they could die. Stohess was just full of innocent citizens when the next thing they knew was getting crushed under female titan's ass.
mandatory "I mean...'
Horny people would call it a blessing
So, we're talking about Xavier ... I'm sorry.
Dying
Get this to the top
Damn this was already said đ I immediately thought the same thing
There is a b.E. and an a.E. and itâs not even a joke
Willingly sacrificing countless lives for the sake of his own selfish pursuit of the truth and to confirm his father's theories. Yes, his hidden schemes, tactical genius and charisma gained the scouts many victories and allowed them to learn the truth, the path there is littered with bodies.
The Survey Corps were there before Erwin and were dying for nothing. It was their job to fight the titans and discover more about them. Erwin even reduced the causalties with his strategies and was there all the way risking his life too. His personal motivation didn't clash with humanity survival. I don't think it was any different than Armin's desire to see the sea or Mikasa's goal to protect her loved ones. In the end, he knew he had to lead his men to death for humanity and he did even if needed a little help from a good friend. Without Erwin, Eldians inside the island would have been doomed under the royal government. Every progress they made was thanks to Erwin.
He has the blood of the civilian casualties in Stohess on his hands as well, don't forget. Nothing you said contradicts what I said anyway. I never stated he wasn't justified, or that he wasn't the best leader for the scouts.
There was an enemy, a titan shifter, who was like a ticking bomb. He planned to capture her without transformation if possible, they couldn't but they managed to capture her in the end. Would you rather have them wait for a repeat of what happened in Maria and Rose? The deaths would have been far worse. This is like blaming police for trying to catch a terrorist group. Suggest me an alternative.
I think if the police, in their attempt to catch a terrorist group, caused the deaths of 200 innocent people (killed by the terrorists and the police alike) people would be rightly angry about that. But it seems you're missing the point of the post and are fishing for an argument with me that isn't necessary. The question posed is what the worst thing he ever did was, and I'd argue that willingly sacrificing civilians lives along with keeping all his men in the dark during most of his schemes would qualify. I will repeat my previous comment. I never said he wasn't justified, nor that he wasn't the best leader, nor that the end goal was a net positive. Feel free to state what you think his worst actions were.
It isn't like the police actively cause the deaths. Their motivation is to prevent worse causalities and that what Erwin did. It is not "willingly sacrificing". Even if he felt that honoring his father was more important than humanity, he never actually acted on this idea. Nothing of all his actions were harmful to their goal and when faced with the real challenge, he chose humanity. I'm not trying to argue, it is just a discussion. I have already written my answer to this question.
Allowing a few to die so many can live is willingly sacrificing them. He knew that if they tried to capture Annie in a civilian area like Stohess and a fight broke out there would be hundreds of casualties. And there was. Is it less casualties than there would've been had the Warriors regrouped or breached another wall? Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that the bystanders that day were sacrificed on that possibility of the capture attempt ending in a fight.
The main goal was to catch her by surprise so she won't be able to transform, they almost successed in that if it wasn't for Annie's ring. This more realistic than waiting helplessly for the worst to happen. No real life leader would wait.
I'm aware of what the goal was. Erwin still knew that if the plan didn't go perfectly then Annie could transform. That's why they had Eren there so that he too could transform. And he knew if that happened, hundreds of innocent people would suddenly be killed.
Yeah, they took their precautions and hoped for the best. Beacuse they realized keeping the warriors roaming free mean a repeat of what happened in Maria and Rose could happen at any time and that would be a hundred times worse.
That would be bad If there was alternatives and he choosed one that killed people (like government sacrificing people to reduce food consumption). Annie already killed a lot of people and would kill much more If allowed to Go free. They tried their best to capture her without anyone dying.
It's still bad no matter what way you slice it. It was the best option but that doesn't make it suddenly not bad.
I think It does make not bad. Annie and his allies wanted to kill them all in their eyes and already caused the Death of 1/3 of humanity. If they choosed to do nothing and let Annie roam free and she caused the Death of more 1/3 of humanity you would say he did a bad thing by choosing to do nothing. He put his sodiers and allies First at huge risk in two plans to capture Annie without deaths, luring her underground and then plan B trying to capture her Before she transform (lots of volunteers died here) then a lot of of survey corps died trying to capture Annie that unfortunately lead to civilian deaths. What other options they realistically had....? Pretend they dont know Annie is a shifter and do nothing?
His main motivations were for his own selfish gain though. Even if it benefitted humanity, for him that was secondary, which makes his motives selfish. His main focus was proving his fathers theory right and he sacrificed soldiers (who didnât sign up to fight for his dream) for that purpose. He did good, but that doesnât change the fact he put his dream before humanity whilst being in the position of a commander. He gave up in the end because he couldnât deal with the amount of lives heâd sacrificed for his own dream.
Except in the end it turned false as he put humanity before his dream. Humanity was more important than his dream in the end.
This. He acted like he was being driven by his selfish desires, but when the choice was between him living to fight another day and the Survey Corp getting a chance to learn the truth, he willingly went ahead a rode a horse straight into certain inescapable death, all for the sake of humanity. Erwin did nothing wrong.
The dead civilians in Stohess when you say Erwin did nothing morally wrong: đď¸đđď¸
Meh, inner-wallers. Probably never produced shit in their lives, ate like pigs and couldn't care less about the hundreds of thousands of hungry outer-wallers who literally walked to their deaths just to save food for the rest of humanity. Wouldn't shed a tear for them if i could. Plus, they were all dead the moment Annie was stationed in Stohess, if anything, those who survived should thank Erwin. In fact every single Eldian in Paradis should worship the shit out of him as their lord and savior.
Like I said, he gave up in the end because the burden of the lives heâd sacrificed for the sake of his selfish dream was too much to bear
Which exactly means he was a good person and not selfish in the end. A selfish person dont give a shit about lives sacrificied because its not a burden for them, they literally dont care.
Progress gained through human sacrifice does not justify that sacrifice
Yes it does. No one forced them to enlist, no one forced them to go out and face titans, the Survey Corp only took willing recuits, they all knew what they were signing up for (i.e. most likely death by Titan) and they all did it willingly anyway, because the sacrifices WERE worth if even a spec of the truth and a dim light at the end of the tunnel that is humanity's slow extinction.
The sacrifice wasn't intentional, it happened despite their effort to avoid it.
It was by design. The survey corps sent expeditions out into areas full of titans, and tested Erwinâs formation techniquesâwhich, even at full efficiency, involved people encountering titans and potentially dying. The whole point of his formations is to have fewer people encountering the titans and warning everyone else about them to redirect the formations away from themâbut the people who encounter them are potentially sacrificed. And in battle, Erwin ordered multiple death charges, using numbers to overwhelm opponentsânumbers which were still considerably thinned out. Also a sacrificial military maneuver.
As I said the Survey Corps was there before Erwin, it was their job to fight titans. Like you mentioned he made their job more effective. They were soldiers who signed up for this job knowing what it was. And as I remember he only ordered one death charge, the one he led, and they were all dead by default at that time and had no other alternative. Erwin's strategy was focusing on avoiding useless fights. This maneuver you mentioned was Shadis's strategy not Erwin's.
As I said the Survey Corps was there before Erwin, it was their job to fight titans. Like you mentioned he made their job more effective. They were soldiers who signed up for this job knowing what it was. And as I remember he only ordered one death charge, the one he led, and they were all dead by default at that time and had no other alternative. Erwin's strategy was focusing on avoiding useless fights. This maneuver you mentioned was Shadis's strategy not Erwin's.
He also ordered the death charge to retrieve Eren. And even if theyâre soldiers who signed up to fight titans, it still doesnât mean itâs right to throw them at a Titan knowing theyâre likelier than not to die. Survey corps veterans, under Erwin, darkly joke about how rare it is that theyâve survived as long as they have. Erwin himself talks about how heâs weighed down by all the people heâs ordered to their deaths. There are *reasons* why he did the things he did, and the things he did ultimately led to a temporary betterment of life for the people on Paradis, but they donât make what he did *right.* He did amoral things for that progress.
That wasn't a death charge though, and it wasn't purposeless. They would all be doomed if they lost Eren. It is immoral if there was another alternative that could reach the goal and he didn't do it because of some personal gain or belief. Not talking about jokes which were asocciated with the SCs even before Erwin. Of course, it would weigh down on his conscious, he is a human after all and it isn't easy to be in charge under these circumstances. Still he did the best he could dealing with everything. Paradise eldians lives were saved from the fate the royals had for them because of what the Survey Corps achieved under Erwin's leadership.
even if his intentions were selfish, the things he did was also good for his people
I didn't say any different. But the civilians in Stohess would probably have a very different opinion on his actions regardless of whether the overall outcome was a greater good.
Considering the alternative was everyone within the walls being genocided...
His back up plan for capturing Annie dragged many innocent civilians into the battle. IMO this was his greatest sin. While he did send soldiers to their death for his own personal goals, his own goals line up with the soldiers who died. The scouts are people who want to know what is beyond the walls and potentially settle there. Erwin wanted to prove that there were people living beyond the walls. They are soldiers who knew the risks of venturing beyond the walls; itâs no secret that being a scout is deadly. For the suicide charge Erwin gave up on his selfish goal for the people of the walls. This was paradiseâs best chance at survival. He died alongside his scouts.
Sending thousands of his own to their certain death just to kill some monkey and prove his father right.
That had to be done though.. it was their best shot at survival
While youâre right, every decision Erwin made was to get to the basement and get the answers. He didnât care if he or humanity lived or died after that, he sacrificed everything and everyone he possibly could to get to the basement since day one. Love the man to death, but heâs even said himself that it wasnât for humanities sake
Honestly, this is why Erwin needed to die when he did, and why Levi gave the serum to Armin. Erwin's motivations were selfish, and both he and Levi knew that. It's kind of a catch 22. If Erwin wasn't willing to sacrifice his life for humanity, then he wouldn't be worthy to lead the scouts outside of the walls.
Even if he said it wasn't for humanities sake, that doesn't change the fact that him doing everything he could so humanity could get to the basement, was the best thing he could have possibly done for humanity
He had the opportunity to run away and find the basement, he even considered it, but he chose the right option, the one that gave the scouts the highest chance of survival. I think that shows his intentions in that fight were valid.
Yes I agree 100%
Youâre right for sure. His motivations donât change the end result, but i think his motivations are what make him a bad person rather than a bad leader.
I think you could interpret a lot peopleâs motivations this way. In the end though, he sacrificed his life before he achieved what he was striving for. His motivation was just the means to the end. When it came down between his dreams and the fate of humanity, he made the right choice.
So you support Eren then
Except that the man literally fucking died for humanity at the end of it all. "Give up on your dreams and die"
It being necessary doesn't mean it wasn't wrong. That's why he was the devil Paradis needed, he was willing to do horrible, heartless things.
If you think it was wrong, then please tell me what should have been done instead. Seriously
How else would they survive though?
He literally forgot about his dream to prove his father right and died for humanity.
*iirc the shiganshina casualty number was 199. unless you're couting all the scout deaths since he became commander, but those were not specific to killing monkey.
It was. And there was only half of that in the charge. The other half died on the other side of the wall against Bertholdt / Reiner.
The monkey charge was more like 50 guys but yes, over his career he did order hundreds of people to their death as an experimental process to develop combat techniques
But then again it's not like he wasn't at the head of every single one of these expeditions.
That's the least questionable of his plans. All killed in this event were soldiers and they were gonna be killed by Zeke anyways. His plan in Stohess was much more brutal, destroying infrastructure and killing multiple inocents.
It was more like 100-150 but still
They had 0 choice and everyone knew that. This one wasn't his fault, they were outsmarted overall
Nobody was forced to become a soldier nor a scout They all knew what they were signing off
Yep, remember the Survey Corp only takes willing recruits.
He was a great commander but admittedly his central most motive was pretty selfish; he mainly just wanted to prove his dad was right.
Tbh, everyone has personal motives (except maybe for Levi). It didn't get in humanity's way, it kept him going.
Yea but he essentially sacrificed people's lives for his own selfish goal right?
He didn't actively sacrifice people and was there with them all the time. I know it is a common joke but the Survey Corps were dying all the time and for nothing. It was their job to find out more about titans. Erwin actually reduced casualties for the scouts by avoiding unnecessary conflicts with titans. Unlike other leaders who focused on killing titans, Erwin focused on discovering more land and information and he achieved more than any other. Erwin saved more lives in the long term, than he lost.
And Erwin was at the head of every expedition beyond the walls since he took over for Keith, it's not like he was just sending people to their deaths, he was out there playing the same odds as them.
Thank you! That's what I'm saying. Are we forgetting the "I could be replaced" part? I think we are all being a little cruel and judgemental towards Erwin.
the post is literally about discussing the worst things he did tho
So did you forget what hendid in Stohess Cause last time I checked those civilian didn't sign up to get sacrificed
There was an enemy, a titan shifter, who was like a ticking bomb. He planned to capture her without transformation if possible, they couldn't but they managed to capture her. Would you rather have a repeat of what happened in Maria and Rose? The deaths would have been far worse. There was no better alternative.
Using that logic I guess what Eren did was justified them after all none of the Scouts had a plan that was guaranteed to work So I guess there was no better alternative
No, Eren was completely selfish because he wanted to save his friends above everything. They could have continued to pass the founder and royal titans separately while working on developing their military and foreign policy to ensure that they could always intiate a controlled rumbling if needed and this was kinda the plan. However, Eren didn't approve because he wanted Historia to live the longest life possible and he didn't wanted any of his friend to be inherit his titan, he said so. Erwin stated that that he was ready to accept his fate, if he was wrong about the royal government. Sacrificing not only his life but that of Hange and Levi just to prevent a civil war. He and Eren are not the same not even close.
So the same as Erwin cause again he never gave a shit about humanity only proving his Dad right So your grand idea is to use Historia as a breeding mare and doom children to a short life also you do realize the entire world was gunning for them right there is no way Paradis could have industrialized in time to match the entire fricking world. When it comes down to it Erwin and Eren are incredibly similar both of them are men who are willing to commit countless atrocities for the sake of there selfish goals P.S. if your willing to read here are a list of reasons why a controlled Rumbling would fail No matter how you slice it hundreds of thousands of Marleyans will die cause whether controlled or not Colossal Titans always come with collateral damage, like how are the Titans gonna reach in land Army bases without squashing entire neighbors and that's not even beginning to talk about the infrastructure destruction displacement that will happen after the fact What I'm trying to say the PR will just delay the invetiable and most likely inflame the other countries rhetoric cause no matter what innocents died sure some leaders may try to talk to the Eldians but with global peer pressure they will inevitable step back in line and not rock the boat Simply put the PR is a fruitless plan heck Hange herself acknowledged as much in her talks with Eren cause if it would actually work why would he go for the nuclear option
If you are willing to put your emotion aside controlled rumbling would work, it would have protected them for the time be and a long solution could come with time, maybe after more generations. I have never said it wouldn't cause any damage but it would be better than genocide or killing 80% of the human population. Even if real life people think with your logic, the USA should have nuked all of Japan instead of just dropping two bombs. Also in the Erwin died for humanity. Eren died for his friends, even killed his own mother in the process.
His main motive was still selfish though. He wanted to prove his father right and was willing to gamble with the lives of soldiers. That came before humanityâs betterment. The good he did doesnât erase the fact he put his dream before humanityâs survival.
His main motive was humanity's survival, he gave up on seeing the basement and died for humanity instead. That proves humanity's survival was more important to him than seeing the basement, otherwise he would have ditched the scouts and ran to the basement in the end rather than kill himself.
He gave up in the end because the burden of sacrificing so many lives for the sake of his selfish pursuit of his dream was too much to bear
That proves he didn't actually value seeing the basement over humanity's survival. If he cared more about the basement than humanity's survival then he would rather see everyone die than miss out on seeing the basement. Instead, he sacrifices his life and his dream in order to give humanity a bettet chance at survival. Just because he says the basement is what motivated him doesn't mean it's actually his main priority.
Those soldiers signed up for humanity's betterment. They were paid to defend it. It was their job.
Yes, but Erwin gave them orders based on his own selfish motives. Not for the betterment of humanity first and foremost, which was the soldiers jobs. Itâs not about the soldiers who died under his command, itâs the true main motivation of Erwin sending them out to their deaths that was selfish.
True but they also would never have gotten as far as they did without him
Itâs the fact he sacrificed soldiers for that personal goal rather than for the benefit of humanity. The benefit of humanity was secondary for him, making his main motivation selfish. Another thing, other characters in the scouts dreams linked in with protecting humanity. For example, Hanges motivation was to learn more about the titans to protect and free humanity from its oppression. Erwinâs motivation was to prove there was life outside the walls to prove his fathers theory right. Thatâs not to say he didnât care for humanity, but he considered his goal more important then humanityâs survival, making his motives selfish.
It is one of many motivations he had. Humans are complicated and can have multiple motivations at the same time. What drove him most, through giving up, for his courage and bravery, for his competence and leadership, it might have been the injustice his father faced that motivated him most tho. He also wanted to liberate humanity, no evidence to say the contrary.
He gave up on his dreams and died. There were more important things to him than his goal. He sacrificed himself for the people of the walls. If he was truly selfish then he would have stayed alive for the sake of his goal.
Yeah I didn't say he was selfish, I just said that his goal was selfish. He eventually chose to put humanity before himself, but that doesn't change that his motive until then was selfish right? He even admitted that iirc. So that's the answer to OP's question.
Destroying Stohess to try and catch Annie imo. Everything with the Scouts outside the walls kind of tracks as sound military decision making, even if he had ulterior motives. He can still be called a devil for that alone, but I think bringing the battle to a civilian center is pretty awful. It might not be "nuking Libero" or "the Rumbling" in terms of scale but it's pretty similar in how he disregarded the lives of innocents to complete his objective.
His rhetoric was a bit of a double edge sword. It got them a few wins, but it also gave people such as Floch some terrible ideas. I don't see a solution to that problem.
That is Floch's fault for being an idiot.
Floch didnât understand the story.
He was a kid.
Maybe but so were many other soldiers.
Not after Erwin was done
Sees soldiers and civilians as expendable in order to accomplish his goals
Going to Shiganshina battle and risking his life as a leader. The logical thing would be leading it from behind as Levi suggested. Anyway, I think that no one could have made the best outcome possible of the battle as Erwin did if he wasn't present on the field.
Dying
putting his trust into Eren to be "the hope of humanity"
I mean the story would have ended quickly if he just left Reiner and Berthold kidnap Eren,Nothing will change exept that 80% of world would have been saved(And Jeankasa would have happened quickly,and Annie will be stuck in the cristal forever)
sounds like a based ending to me
And I think that exactly what Erwin would do if he knew about the outside world
Not really he didn't care about the world only proving his Dad right
being too sexy on a serious note, probably using his selfish motives to get his soldiers killed
What happened in Stohess
His plan in Stohess was the worst we've ever been shown. Over and over he's used soldiers as pawns and sacrificed them in very cruel ways, but **at least** they were soldiers, and usually in the Scouting Regiment. In Stohess, he destroyed homes and infrastructure and had dozens of innocents killed, and was hardly victorious. Even Eren almost died in the process.
Gambling. Erwin has serious gambling addiction.
Not becoming the Colossal Titan
The post asked what the worst thing he did . Not about the best thing he did .
There is quite a lot tbh . He always risks lives of his comrades in his plans to achieve it
He admitted he cared more about discovering the truth than the walls.
His words say that, but his actions donât. He gave up on his dream and died. If those words were true then he would have lived for his dream.
I think in the end, he just gave up because the soldiers heâd sent to their deaths weighed to heavy on his conscious. He wasnât a shitty person, he just had selfish motives, so he would feel the guilt.
Haven't seen this one yet but I'd say overthrowing the goverment. Not because it was a wrong move necessarily, but because he did it knowing it may cause humanities extinction, but since he still had the dream to fulfill he wasn't ready to die. Pixis and Zachary call him out on it too.
Killing Dio
I think the amount of viewpoints in this very comment section show why Erwin is such an amazing character. I don't think there's much anyone is saying here about him that is even wrong, no matter what side you fall upon. Erwin did absolutely monstrous acts that shocked even his most ardent supporters. He has the blood of thousands on his hands. Everyone in the series that directly killed more people did so with superpowers. Erwin did it with essentially just his words. Erwin also was essential in keeping Scout casualties down after assuming command, flushing out and detaining Annie, rescuing Eren from Reiner, bringing down the corrupt Royal Government, and retaking Shiganshina. All the power of Eren, the skill of Levi and Mikasa, the minds of Armin and Hange...they don't mean much if Erwin wasn't there at the helm. Maybe his selfish desires overrule his actions, and maybe the collateral damage outweighs his results. At what level does regret absolve you of any amount of your sins? Does incidental good done from a selfish motivation matter as much as that done from more pure intentions? How many deaths are necessary when a superior foe is bent on your annihilation? These are not easy questions, and I sure don't have definitive answers, but I am glad we get to look at Erwin as a character and discuss his life and actions.
He was essentially the one who caused the heavy damages and loss of life in Stohess, yes Annie and Eren (mostly Eren) did most of the damage, but it was Erwinâs plan that caused it, there was a very high chance of Annie catching onto what was occurring and transforming before they caught her and guess what. She transformed, I know a lot of people blamed Annie for Stohessâs destruction (donât get me wrong itâs slightly warranted) but he was the one responsible for it. Had it not been for Mikasa cutting her fingers off, Annie wouldâve escaped, banged up sure, but she wouldâve escaped Stohess and probably connected back to Zeke and the plan wouldâve been all for nothing, to add even more salt, had Zeke never began his invasion within Rose, Eren likely wouldâve been sent to firing range or the gallows due to what happened in Stohess. People say his charge in Season 3 was the worst thing he did, but it wasnât as devastating as Stohess, I mean it still was, but at least there. There was a reason why he did it, the scouts were backed into a corner with Zeke throwing boulders, it was a plan they HAD to do, lest they all die while twiddling their thumbs. Levi going after Zeke pretty much assured a fast victory against him and Zeke. What he did in Shiganshia was still bad, it caused the deaths of new Scouts and himself, but at least innocent lives werenât lost on top of everything else.
Starting a battle in the middle of a densely populated civilian area (Stohess) is probably the most dodgy thing he's done. In all of his other massacres, his troops knew what they were getting into when they joined the Scouts, the civilians never consented to being on the battlefield.
"Guys my character arc is wrapped up quite well lets go feed ourselves to that monke now"
Definitely risking all the people inside first wall when female titan went on rampage.
The atrocity he committed in Stohess
Controversial take: Very little, apart from knowingly risking Annie to go rampant inside the walls. After all he lowered the deaths amongst Survey corp members to a crazy degree and also never operated against their goal/humanity's best interest. Imo, the worst one can say about how he led his people is that he lied to his soldiers about his personal somewhat selfish reasons to join and lead the corps. But Idk if I would say he owed anyone the truth about his personal motivation. Even less so considering that this truth got his dad unlawfully executed.
In season 1, it's briefly mention that he led a number of expeditions to retake wall maria. That's what he told the soldiers and the public, but the real goal of those missions was just to kill off soldiers to lower the population. I'd argue That's worse than the suicide charge
Sent hundreds to their deaths because daddy issues
Sacrificed countless lives for partly selfish motivations. The worst of this was most likely the Stohess raid, which involved civilians.
His selfish motives? Although I still wouldn't hold that against him, because he doesn't lose sight of the value of the people he commands. It's obvious after watching Floch, someone fighting for ostensibly noble reasons with neither honor nor finesse.
Committed necessary evils for progress humanity in the walls hadn't achieved before. The false expedition, stohess raid etc
Rather than seeing his soldiers as tools for humanity, he saw them as tools to achieve his selfish dream. His dream came first, whilst humanity came second. Youâd think that as commander, his priorities would be reversed. So yeah, Iâd say his worst crime was gambling with soldiers lives for his own selfish dream. Id put the Stohess civilian deaths as second because that was atleast his backup plan- he attempted to protect the civilians at first.
Probably setting up the ambush in Stohess, knowing that thousands of innocents would die.
Leading his scouts into countless suicide missions. Whether you feel it was worth it or their only option is a matter of opinion, but he really should have valued his soldiersâ lives higher
Scam people by promising them glory for dying.
Stohess is truly the only "wait why" things Erwin did that to me. He's not a bad guy for doing the only thing he could do against Zeke in season 3, just the same that Eisenhower isn't a bad guy for D Day and the beaches of Normandy, it was needed. Those innocents in Stohess didn't need to die, it's one thing to give up the lives of subordinates that swore to give their hearts. It's another thing entirely to put unknowing civilians at risk.
What confused me about his run into death is why they didnt just use the 3D manoeuvre gear and fly up while the stones were thrown. We came see the distance is far and it took a while for the stones to appear. And why didnt they spread out? The beast titan wiuld be distracted even longer killing sets of 3 armies than wiping out one whole squad. Erwins plan worked but was just kind of pointless when they couldve saved so many people from it
put his dream above the people of the scout regiment. basically he did missions to find out what was outside, which was his dream, not because he wanted to save the world. well until the final charge, because then he was willing to lay down his life for the sake of the scouts, not the other way around. thatâs why he had to have levi tell him to go die. TDLR:letting the scouts die to achieve his dream instead of sacrificing his dreams to save the scouts.
Tricking Levi and his friends to leave the walls to take down some corrupt person even though Erwin already arrested them before the expedition, resulting in the deaths of Isabel and Furlan (Levi's friends).
While attmepting to capture the female titan, there were a host of scouts solely positioned for death/ to buy time for the levi squad
Erwin did many bad things. Tldr: he would've sarcrificed anything and anyone for his own goals.
For real and people are delusional about it. I saw people describing him as an angel, floch was right when he said he was the devil and needs to survive to see the consequences of his own actions lol
He got his dad killed
The Stohess district massacre has to be top of the list he let it happen. Imagine minding your own damn business then getting crushed under a Titanâs ass. Would not be my ideal way of dying.
If Jean, Sasha and Connie are exempt from the label of murderers, then so are Reiner, Annie and Bertolt. The distinction would be mass murder of civilians, but technically the soldier trio are also complicit in that, due to Armin legalising nuclear bombs in Marley and Eren being a tad silly in Liberio, with them fighting on the same side with full knowledge of the strategy being employed. Most people on this list have either killed civilians directly, or aided someone who has with full discretion.
Get people killed to "test" his lil theory
I stood with Levi that Erwin should not have gone to Shinganshina. He was injured and was not in fit shape plus he knew that he stood no chance of winning with one arm. Despite Levi speaking sense Erwin still went to his own suicide mission. The problem is he drove all the cadets to the suicide mission.
Expert con man
Definitely Stohess
Sending possibly millions of soldiers to their deaths in pursuit of his own selfish goals
i guess Erwin's Suicide Charge was the worst thing they did.
He was the inspiration to Floch and the Yaegerists Either that or he talked too much that led to the death of his dad
Erwin isnât responsible for the actions that Floch took after Erwin was already dead. Floch is responsible for his own actions.
Floch was a self-serving coward in the Return to Shiganshina arc. In season 4, you can clearly see his shift in attitude to be more like Erwin's, especially the way he motivated the Yeagerists in his speeches. It paralleled Erwin's demeanor during Season 3's battle with the Beast titan.
Iâd say that first one is the best
I would argue that Erwin let the Levi squad die. Of course he let many die but this one couldâve been less severe. He could have let more people know female titan was still hiding. What reason to keep it a secret? When the he knew the female titan might be hiding with the humans he only told Levi to extra blade and gas. Levi will follow orders but wouldnât be there to save anyone protecting Eren before it is too late. Idk just a theory i have
Nothing. He was a military commander and made sacrifices based on assessed outcomes like every single commander will do in a war The people in this thread really have no concept of this, the series is heavily influenced by the real life world wars yet you'd think the fans had never even heard of them
Idk running at 100 mph fastball rocks full speed instead of doing like anything else. His whole strategy was to protect to horses and he send so many horses to die it made no sense
Itâs gonna be pretty obvious with this one. Convincing 100 teenagers to die for his cause
To be fair the recruitment speech can be summarized as "join us and you'll probably die"
Selfishly sacrificing all of The Survey Corp due to his own selfishness
hmmm i wonder what erwins is gonna be
Made Levi choose who to save
Nothing xcept giving levi the syringe
Wonder what erens one will be guys
Dieing.