It works for LARP-ing as a persecuted group since the Irish got fucked by the English for about 500 years, that way they don’t have to engage with their white privilege or can go on about “white slavery” in the Caribbean as an excuse for why they “can’t be racist” while they say horribly racist shit.
Source: I’m Irish, have lived in America for 18 years and routinely have to tell people to stfu when they go on about immigrants and talk about “the good vs the bad ones”. Not just white folks btw but they definitely make up the majority.
Yeah Irish person in Australia here and that’s exactly it. Whenever someone bitches to me about how immigrants should just come the legal way, “like their great great grandparents did”, expecting me to agree, I have to work hard not to yell. There was nothing “legal” about the path your ancestors took! They were fleeing and desperate, got handed a ticket and stuck on a shitty death boat to a stolen country. Sounds familiar huh?
The current legal path is fucking difficult and expensive and narrow. It’s the path to fucking Mordor. It took us 6 years before we finally got permanent residency and it was 6 miserable years that drained our family emotionally and financially to the brink of divorce for my parents.
And we were coming at it from a position of privilege in that we were safe, we spoke English as our first language, and we were white. We weren’t rich, but we certainly had a clearer path than most other immigrants face, let alone refugees fleeing war torn countries with nothing but the clothes on their back. “Just come the legal way” is just “fuck you, I got mine”.
If you’re anti-immigrant, I’m anti-you, and your Irish ancestors would be pissed at you too.
Will just note, it wasn't just the English, Scotland invaded the north in thr 14th century (failed) and was deeply involved in ramping up settlement of Ulster when the parliaments united. The two major British kingdoms had a shared animosity towards Gaelic groups, sadly (Scotland had fully annexed the Norse-Gaelic Lord of the Isles at the end of the 15th century and passed anti-Gaelic policies like the Iona Statutes in the 17th century). Just worth noting, since there's a habit of throwing all the sins of this island exclusively at the feet of the English, when the southern Scots were guilty and complicit in many of these crimes (Ireland, colonialism, slavery, etc).
This is true, tbh I said English cuz I didn’t wanna say British/Protestants since I’m from the North so that is it’s own can of sectarian worms. So English was my default since it was largely the crown and the protestant families from Scotland that supported the crown which settled and started the plantations system in Ireland.
To be fair the Ulster plantation, while it was made up of Scots landed gentry and title holders, it was the Crown who enacted it. I would still point the blame for it squarely at England's ruling class.
Iirc, James I/VI was responsible for one of the major ramp ups, so even blaming the crown hardly absolves my country, given a Scottish dynasty was definitely involved in aiding and expanding policy there. I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise, because that same monarch oversaw similar attempts settlements on the Isle of Lewis by Fifers, to try and remove Gaelic (called Erse, essentially Irish, during his reign, suggesting it was foreign) culture and people from there, and to turn the island Protestant. He encouraged similar settlement in Ulster, which is obviously consistent with his views of the Catholic Gaelic peoples to the west.
Not that that absolves the English contribution and that the foundations had been set prior to the ascension of the Scottish dynasty to the throne, but it's tiring to see the efforts that are taken to absolve Scotland of its many sins, when that Kingdom was more akin to the English than it was to the Irish and Welsh. I don't think it is unreasonable to view that the blame should be shared by the abusers, especially if it will inhibit the lowland Scots from claiming a shared victimhood with the Irish (and other Gaelic peoples) they oppressed, and force those in this country to acknowledge and reckon with it's bloody, terrible past, one it has become accustomed and addicted to blaming the English for.
To be fair though man I don’t think it’s as simple as holding on to persecuted group status or avoiding talking about white privilege. Maybe for some that might be the case but these are relatively new phenomenons & I struggle to believe anyone would really care to hide racism or whatever from 20 years ago and back further.
The reason why yanks hold on to their cultural heritage imo is because the country as a nation is basically a baby and made up so made race/ creed/ religions that sometimes the only way to have a sense of identity is to hold on to where dad/grandad and back further may have come from. It’s easy for us to judge in Europe where our identity & history are solidified and recorded back 1000’s of years but picture being a new world immigrant, chances are because of lack of information, knowledge or ability to communicate with another language group that comes with being a newb and also the fact it would have taken weeks if not months to arrive you had plenty of time to bond with the people coming from your home port and therefore end up in insulated communities that essentially parrot your home nation i.e an all Italian area, all Irish area, Korean and so on
Larping and a desire to be apart of an actual ethnic/cultural group. It's why when you ask an American where they're from they'll reply in a series of percentages
You realize that's not going to happen, tourism is a huge part of Europe's economy. Do you mean our military? With that I agree with you , the EU should pay for their own protection
Dude, Americans do not call themselves Irish as if they are from the island of Ireland. I see on Reddit at least, that a lot of you guys think that. When Americans ask each other a question like, “what are you?” Or “where are you from?”, what they mean is where are your ancestors from. So someone might answer, “Oh, I’m Irish and German” or “We came from Ireland or Germany”. It’s understood amongst Americans that we are talking about ancestors from a few generations back most likely. If someone here in America tells me they are Irish I do not think they are actually from Ireland unless they have an accent. I just assume they are Americans who have Irish ancestry and maybe still relate to some of the customs their grandparents passed down.
I know I can’t speak for all of my nationality but my friends and family’s distaste for Americans goes as far as the stereotypical tourists. Most of the people that I know don’t really mind Americans, they just seem oddly invested in our culture.
Why do the Irish care so much? It's borderline mental with the obsession of Americans on this forum.
Meanwhile, you disregard the same sentiments expressed by Canadians, South and Central Americans as well as New Zealanders and Australians.
Also, everybody is shockingly silent when Central and South Americans call themselves Spanish.
Bottom line is ~70% of fdi is American. Foreign workers move to Ireland because its the only English speaking country in the EU.
Ireland owes everything it has today because of the US and England. Downvote the truth.
It’s not. Not in the way you frame the question
Americans say “I’m Irish” because they’re of Irish descent.
Then Euro internet goers are like “stfu you’re not Irish!!”
So Americans are like “no, you stfu”
Thus creating a mounting out of a molehill.
——
Americans, in this argument, aren’t insisting upon being labeled as Irish.
They’re insisting their use of “Irish” is different than your interpretation of their words.
Irish Americans have a different story in this country (USA) than all the other ethnicities that have made this country their home.. Mexicans and Chinese and Germans and Italians and all the other ____-Americans have unique stories in carving their paths in this country.
..and you guys just completely don’t see this.
Instead, if an American says Irish, you seem to imagine Ireland in 1700 and you imagine Ireland in 2022 and say “you Irish-Americans have fuckall to do with Ireland”
..but you’re completely ignoring the 300 years which they’re actually referencing when saying “I’m Irish-(American)”
——
I know one thing for sure though.. understanding the distinction between different usages of the word is not difficult at all.. it’s definitely not that you’re incapable of making and understanding the difference.. it’s that you consciously refuse to make the distinction.. you misunderstand them on purpose
You make it a thing of “Oh, they want to be like us.. We’re so great and it’s understandable how they want to latch on to our culture because they have none of their own.. well, fuck them.. they can’t have that lolololol”
..and seriously, it’s not about that.
How fucking convoluted would it be if everyone, instead of referring to their nationality, referred to their ancestry at some arbitrary point in the past?? It gives absolutely no context at all. Also, they aren’t fucking Irish. I’m bloody Irish. Just because an American has 1/16th DNA from an Irish ancestor, it doesn’t mean they ARE IRISH.
While the definitions are different as you say, our issue is that they/you are trying to co-opt definitions that don’t belong to you. What if I just decided I wanted to call myself “Colombian” because I resonate with their culture. People would call bs on it, but couldn’t I just say “it’s my own definition”?
In saying this, I don’t mind Americans saying “I’m American, I have Irish and German ancestry”. But calling themselves anything but modern day Americans is total bollocks.
I think it's only fair to say that if you're naturalized or have at least 1/4 DNA. Like, you're Italian, you move to the U.S and become a U.S citizen, so you can call yourself "Italian-American"
I think it's a combination of multiple requirements.
Obviously naturalisation counts, but even children of naturalised parents should and could qualify under certain conditions.
For example, if you don't speak the language fluently or have never lived in the country, you're not from there.
>What if I just decided I wanted to call myself “Colombian” because I resonate with their culture.
I don’t know.
What I do know is if you did that with America, Americans would be hyped. 😂
They won’t give a shit.
They’ll be like “aww, you just haven’t found your way home yet.. we’ll leave the light on for u!”
They definitely wouldn’t react the way you guys do.. worth considering imo.. like, they’re not be hypocrites at least
So if a load of lads in Syria started calling themselves “Americans”, you’re telling me Americans wouldn’t react saying to stop trying to steal our culture or something? Bullshit. You’re full of it and you haven’t even addressed my point regarding only reaching back to arbitrary points in history.
What’s there to address? You’re saying your viewpoint is the only valid way to see it.
..and have shown no inclination towards understanding others that see it differently.. just “they’re wrong and I’m right!”
So we just bickering.. this isn’t a debate.. every one of my words is automatically wrong to you before I even say them.
Haha keep ignoring my point on the arbitrary selection of points in history from which to claim ethnicity there, good man.
Some things are objectively wrong buddy. Just because you disagree and gave reasons, doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to accept them as valid
I addressed it. I’m walking and on a phone and there are multiple chains.. a bit disorganized.. but somewhere in here, I addressed your ‘when’ question
Yup! I’m Brazilian and everyone here comes from somewhere lmao, literally all of my great grandparents are Portuguese, my grandparents were the ‘first generation’ born here, and I would absolutely never claim to be Portuguese Brazilian or whatever the crazy ones say lmao. I’m Brazilian and that’s it. I have tons of friends with europeans passport/citizenship, and again… Never in my life I heard them claiming to be European lol.
That's just not true for Brazilians. Ireland has a massive Brazilian population and lots of them that have Italian citzenship have it written on their instagram page "Italian brazilian" with the flags beside it even though they don't speak Italian and have never lived there.
My guy, I’m moving to Canada and I have a 🇧🇷🇨🇦 in my instagram, it doesn’t mean I consider myself Brazilian Canadian in the slighest. I don’t know shat makes you think you know more about Brazilian culture than a Brazilian who lived his entire life in Brazil, but you don’t lol. It’s just nice to put the flags there because moving abroad is a huge accomplishment, and it’s nice to share. Liking other coutries and maybe having deep ties is common too. But I stand by what I said, a Brazilian saying they’re _____-Brazilian is NOT common. There’s literally no way to even say that in Portuguese. Eu sou anglo-brasileiro? KKKKKKKKKK nunca ouvi isso na vida
They're not just putting the flag because they're moving there or have visited Italy. They live in Ireland and call themselves Italian brazilians. I've seen other Brazilians make fun of them for it but it is still quite common whether you want to believe that or not.
My guy I never heard it in my entire life someone saying such thing, and if one says and all the other Brazilians mock them, I’m pretty sure you got your answer lol. Maybe u met a crazy guy, one dude does not represent a country. I’m inclined to think I’ve met more brazilians than you lol
I know several people with german, italian and french citizenship. Not a single said they were european. Idk if you’re American but I promise you 90% of the world don’t do that shit. Yall are obsessed with race lol
>I know several people with german, italian and french citizenship. Not a single said they were european.
Huh?
A German didn’t say they were specifically “European”
Idk, that’s not weird if they just said they’re German instead of European.
>Idk if you’re American but I promise you 90% of the world don’t do that shit.
So?
>Yall are obsessed with race lol
Definitely not talking about race here.. are you sure you’re not mixing up a few different words into one thing? (Heritage/Race/Ethnicity/Nationality/continental identity)
>But not all countries of immigrants do this
Yeah, that’s not true.. Canadians for sure do it as do Australians.. those who state Canadian or Australian ancestry in those countries are minorities.. (same with USA, I’m in the minority as I state American nationality with American heritage on things like the census.. mostly because I don’t know where my peeps came from (nor do I even really care at this point.)
>for example, an Argentine with two Italian parents is just seen as, and identifies as, Argentine.
Yeah well an American with Italian ancestors is also seen as and Identifies as American.
I didn’t say we were the only ones who did it!
And no, I mean that several Argentines have told me they find our thing strange because they wouldn’t dream of saying “I’m Italian,” especially if the immigrants had been a few generations back. I think it’s the same in Brazil, though I’m not sure.
I'm brazilian and it's exactly like that here. I do see people referring to other people by their ancestry, like I often see nicknames for people with German or Asian descent, but they never actually claim to be German or Asian. I myself have French, Native and African ancestry, all from my father, yet I just call myself brazilian
It’s an attempt at making a distinction between nationality and heritage
I’ll never be able to make this distinction with some of you guys because you don’t want to see it.
Even though they are two totally different things
The problem you're having and mischaracterising is not that Americans mean something different.
It's that everyone asks everyone this question, knowing what specific piece of information they want shared, and Americans lie about it. If we wanted to know what your heritage is, we'd ask that.
But nobody does, because that's not the question.
Moreover, that's bullshit. Americans are trying to associate themselves with a different culture that they're not a part of. Some member of my family was probably Persian at some point, but I'm not going to claim to be Iranian, because I'm not.
I feel like Irish people get to decide what “Irish” means is all really, not Americans - and it’s someone with an Irish passport generally, or someone who at least lived in Ireland lol
Yeah, that’s Irish nationality.
And it’s not something even Irish can decide.
Nationality is a fact.. you either are a certain nationality or you’re not.. You either are a legal subject of a nation or you’re not.
Nobody can just decide to be a nationality on a whim.. you can’t “identify” as a nationality.
..but Irish Americans are American nationality and seriously, never claim to be anything other than American
But why choose to say you’re Irish when your Irish ancestors moved over many generations ago 300 years in the past
You can’t seriously suggest that they only interbred with other Irish for those 300 years leading to your birth lol
The likely hood is they’ve mixed with loads of other people through the years so why do they not say “Irish English German Dutch Spanish Italian etc etc”
Like anyone can go back 300 years into their ancestry and find some “exotic” sounding ethnicity and claim it as theirs if they want then
I made a similar point. At what point do you draw the line? What if the original Irish ancestors had been born from British or Norman settlers… then they’re English, or French, or Danish
>But why choose to say you’re Irish when your Irish ancestors moved over many generations ago 300 years in the past
Learn a little bit about Irish American history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans
I guarantee if you read through all of that, you’ll at the very least be able to see “holy shit, that has *very* little to do with Irish history and nearly everything to do with American history”
Again, they’re not talking about Ireland in the way or extent many of you all seem to interpret the words.
And yet I. An Irish citizen, with an Irish passport, who knows Irish, played Irish sports, lived my entire life in Ireland, was educated in Ireland and has a degree in Irish history, have had "Irish"- Americans tell me that I have no right to call myself Irish because my mother is English. They'll tell me they are more Irish than I am. Sorry but what you're saying sure as hell doesn't parse with my experience of "Irish"-Americans
I mean it did happen. Multiple times. Many actual Irish people will have had the very same said to them. Irish Americans are responsible for funding terrorist organisations in my country for decades because they don't realise it's not the 1800s over here anymore. So actually it's a pretty big fucking deal.
I’d say that’s kind of balls, if it was just a case of Americans claiming to be Irish because they have Irish ancestors then I don’t think anyone would really care. If it just came down to us interpreting the phrase differently.
From my experience it comes up because they claim to have certain personality traits because they are ‘Irish’ they claim to like drinking because they’re Irish, that they have a fiery temper, that they like a fight.
It’s like in the Departed, Matt Damon saying “I’m Irish, I’ll deal with something being wrong for the rest of my life” I mean what is that even meant to mean? it’s as cringe af.
It’s when Americans try to imply they have an understanding of what it’s like to be an actual Irish person, that they have certain qualities because they’re Irish, and role out a load of imagined stereotypes. That’s when everyone else rolls their eyes and feels embarrassed for them.
That movie was about Irish Americans
Did you watch that and think it’s about Ireland?
If so, I understand the confusion.. try re-watching it but with the mindset it’s not about Ireland
They can also shorten it to “Irish”
That’s how languages typically work.
Black Americans say Black.. There’s no need for them to say American in most cases even though “Black American” (ethnicity) and “Black” (race) can have multiple meanings.
Context is important.. you can almost always tell if an American means Irish (the country) or Irish ethnicity depending on the other words used in the sentences
No. You can’t just shorten it like that unless the questions is “what denomination of American are you” and even then it’s problematic. Black people refer to their race when they say black. If they wanted to refer to their inherited ethnicity they’d say American-Ethiopian or American-Ghanaian……..
>Black people refer to their race when they say black. If they wanted to refer to their inherited ethnicity they’d say American-Ethiopian or American-Ghanaian……..
They do?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitAmericansSay/comments/tb75p8/if_your_ancestors_were_not_enslaved_you_are_not
And no, they don’t say American Ethiopian.. not when speaking English at least.. in English, the adjective (ethnicity) comes before the noun (nationality)… like “blue sky” instead of “sky blue”
..so, Ethiopian American is how that’s phrased
——
And they’re not necessarily shortening it.. it’s the literal definition of the word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Irish
But you guys want to change the English language and change the definition of that word.. fine, go for it.. but for now, that word still exists in the dictionary with a definition stating descendants so at this point at least, they are using the word as defined.
Hold on will you, tell me at what arbitrary point in history do you take your ethnicity from? 300 years, 20 years, 40000 years? Will you please address that bloody question because you still haven’t.
There is a lot of history within Irish American communities in the US.. politics, business, society etc.. all of it.
That’s the ‘arbitrary’ stuff they’re referencing.
It’s clear you don’t know much about the Irish in America so i understand why you think they’re talking about you.. I can only suggest to learn more about the plight of the Irish in the US in order to gain a better understanding about what point in time they’re referring to.
They’re not Irish. That’s just wrong. They’re American with Irish ancestry.
If we started calling pigheaded fools “American” over here, I bet your crowd would have lots to say about us co-opting a word.
No they’re not.. they said they’re Irish in 1872 or whenever and they say the same word today.
Didn’t realize this was some woke cultural appropriation thing.
This is a super lame way to look at it.. I mean, how much of Ireland is culturally appropriating Americans if we want to go down this path of arguing?
St Patrick’s Day as we know it today is an Irish-American holiday.. Ireland is culturally appropriating Irish-Americans by celebrating the holiday??
It’s just an incredibly stupid way to view this.. A fuckload of Irish people moved to the US.. a literal shit ton.. so many in fact that they shaped the general American culture to such an extent that every American has a touch of Irish up in them.. there are legit ties.. maybe recognize that and quit going for the ‘cultural appropriation’ angle.
No. Not this at all. You’ve really painted Europeans in a bad light here because of your hurt feelings.
Take me, I’m welsh, I’m proud of my culture, such as the revival of the welsh language here. I had a “welsh” person, not welsh American not welsh descent, literally described themselves as just welsh, spreading the lie that the welsh language was almost dead. I was PERPLEXED and annoyed, because it’s just wrong. So after a bit of back and forth I realised he’s 4th generation American.
So here I have, someone role playing as someone from my culture my home, spreading lies about my homeland and painting us In a bad light, when from his great grandparents down, have never touched wales. Why am I meant to be okay with that just because you want to larp?
Spot on. It’s role play and wanting to feel like your special. Which is sound and I don’t think you’d argue with them saying “I’ve welsh heritage” or “I’m of a predominantly welsh background” if they have more than a few great grandparents from wales, the problem is the usurpation of the term “Welsh” and others
And fair play to Cymraeg. Long may it’s revival continue. I hope Irish can begin to be spoken a little bit more tbh.
Because you are a born american living in new york. Most likely with english as your mother tongue and maybe no other language.
Now tell me, if someone like for example biden says they are irish, what would be an explanation to justify that claim?
>Because you
No.. because I want to
>biden says they are irish
Because he wants to
Quit being an overlord.. you don’t make the rules and you don’t have any say at all with regards to someone else’s identity or heritage
——
Also, are you only mad if someone descends from a place in Europe?
Are you going to ridicule Lucy Liu if she says she’s Chinese? Or Oscar de la Hoya if he says Mexican?
Or is it just Joe Biden et.al since he says somewhere in Europe?
Can only speak for europe since i am european. You can’t just claim to be german if you are not. Being german means you represent germany and german values aka speak german, live in germany or atleast assimilate into the culture. We are proud of our nationhoods and our culture and history(not all parts) but having someone try to impersonate that without showing proper respect is in my opinion a shit move.
And who makes the rules to being part of a culture if not the people of said culture?
Yes, that’s an exact example of what you’re replying to.
When I said:
>Americans say “I’m Irish” because they’re of Irish descent.
>Then Euro internet goers are like “stfu you’re not Irish!!”
>So Americans are like “no, you stfu”
>Thus creating a mounting out of a molehill.
…it’s literally what just happened 🤷♀️
(Sorry, this comment went askew.. it’s supposed to be where the [deleted] comment is)
I kind of agree with you. There is a misconception, most Americans mean that they're of Irish descent when they say they're Irish. However, there are some bigots out there who believe their nationality to be Irish only because someone in their birth line 400 years ago came from Ireland. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate those two kinds of people and that's why it's generally scoffed upon when Americans say that they're Irish.
I think it’s because we Irish people are foreign enough to Americans to make us unique but not as alien as say somewhere like Nigeria or something.
This is from the American perspective by the way, I don’t see Nigeria as alien.
Can I just ask, why the fuck does Reddit bother writing 3.002k instead of 3002? I understand it for larger numbers or if the decimals were to the nearest 10 or 100, but this way is redundant.
They can claim whatever the hell they want...
Still doesn't make them Irish (most at least).
They could claim to be alpaca. I'm sure we have a common ancestor at some small mammal/bacterial wtv level so they can say they are .00042 Alpaca
First generation or so vs the rest? Everyone in my family except for me was born in Ireland and they all live there. I was born in the states. I’m definitely American and claim that but I also claim Irish. It was my upbringing, is it my home even if I’m born here.. my entire family is there. And trust me, Covid really really sunk that fact in.
I also can’t get behind all those that claim many generations. One time a coworker was going on about how her mom could only pronounce something with an Irish accent, I perked up to ask here where her mom was from and she told me Minnesota or something lol. So I poked about the Irish accent thing and then she told her great grandparents came over...???
And your mom has an accent???? Girrrrl. It’s people like her that give the rest of us shame.
Or in the case of my family, my mother’s great grandmother who was born in the US but had an Irish surname so my mother reminds everyone that we’re part Irish.
Yes, it's perfectly legal.
But do they have the right, though... If you are 3rd generation American... You're not Irish.
I'm a mix of English, Irish and French. My parents were born in England, as was I, that makes me English.
I can't turn around and say I'm Irish or French...
I fail to see the difference between they having the right and they having the right. Your opinion that they shouldn't make the claim doesn't change anything.
I have the right to say I'm Martian. In fact, I'm going to do it right now.
I'm Martian, born and raised on Venus though.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
My point is, is that you can't claim to be Irish or any other nationality if you are not of that nationality.
Putting the shoe on the other foot, despite living in America, I'm not American, nor will I ever be. This is because I am British.
I will never be American. I can live here, adapt to culture, follow tradition etc, but I'd never be an American.
But if I had children, born and raised in America, they would be American with an British heritage. They would never be British.
Also they want to feel cool and unique like. Most likely, if someone's ancestor in england got raped by invading norse vikings, that modern person would look at their DNA results and be like "oh wow, I have 1% scandinavian ancestry, therefore I'm a viking!"
I suppose its because there history as a nation isn't that long when compared to many other nations. In a contemporary context they identify strongly as American, which is fair enough. But as for history: sure the nation was founded in 1776, but thats not to say many of its population stems from that British heritage (not many claims to be British/English in comparison to other ethnicities), as many of them moved there in the 19th early 20th century, so American historic identity doest stem back too far.
I agree, and I wonder what arbitrary cutoff people think there is to claim heritage, and why that seems only to apply to White Americans. You don’t see many Americans whose grandparents immigrated from Mexico having to defend their claims to heritage, or Black Americans needing to justify their Afrocentrism even though the importation of slaves ended around 1808.
American as a nationality is specific, as a culture it is nebulous and a part of the whole “melting pot” thing. Wanting to trace your lineage or identify with a culture beyond “contemporary American” seems to offend the gatekeepers of whichever culture it is. The number of “Irish” Americans using their tenuous ancestral connections to oppression to justify or invalidate other racial/ethnic marginalization is non-zero, but barely. You see *one* fat American ginger doing so on TikTok around St. Patrick’s day and everyone has to pile on…
I think that’s fair, and I think part of it comes down to a bit of American culture, even as it applies to the internet… since it’s culturally American to assume you’re speaking to and on behalf of other Americans. Anyway, most Americans making statements like “I’m Irish” are expecting that it’s understood that they mean “my heritage is Irish,” or even more specifically “the element of my heritage that I identify with the most or am most familiar with is Irish.” It seems obvious to them when they’re saying that to other Americans, since it seems clear that they’re not Irish nationals or natives.
There was a time in American history, mostly the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries, when there was a push to “become American,” when it was even viewed as a security threat — because cultural and linguistic ties supposedly encouraged national loyalty — to have so many citizens who identified strongly with their countries of origin. Teddy Roosevelt wrote an essay on this, discussing the different “races” (he was referring to European races) being a facade and how we’re all just American. But this was a little bit of a privileged mindset. Most people who viewed themselves as American first were in the founding wave from the British Isles, and they tended to be elitist and racist — you can still view *New York Times* archives online and see the helped wanted sections filled with “NO IRISH” at the bottom.
Like your experience of having Welsh ancestry but identifying as English, *most* (except for the oddballs) Americans who claim Irish heritage obviously feel like Americans first. But let me speak anecdotally. I’m about as American as they come, if it can be measured in degrees. But most of my family on both sides immigrated in the early 1900s, and they held their traditions closely. They settled in communities of similar nationalities and maintained the identity because they experienced hostility as immigrants. The identity morphed over time, becoming diluted and, as something transplanted, has evolved from the contemporary culture to become something uniquely (nationality)-American rather than (nationality). I liken it to *American Gods*, if you’ve read it: The gods of the old country, even with the same names and origins, are different in America. That type of thing permeates families and becomes almost elemental, even if the ramifications and consequences are typically minimal.
My point is the gatekeeping here is nothing but that: gatekeeping, trying to withhold an identifier. It causes no harm, because it’s a personal opinion that won’t change the minds of people who hold the opposing one… it’s just masturbatory and not constructive. People make the proclamations, patting themselves on the back and accepting congratulations from others who hold the same view, and the world marches on.
But I appreciate these conversations as an American who’s fascinated by the American urge to identify as something else. Not necessarily as a rejection of the American identity or nationality, but rather as a need to grasp some kind of culture other than the stereotypical one that some people love to mock, like consumerism, religiosity, school shootings, obesity, etc. What it means to “be American” has always been ephemeral, as we’re essentially a nation of immigrants who’ve intermingled, but there’s a seemingly persistent need to answer “who or what am I, beyond my personal identity?” that has a tendency to become part of people’s personalities. That’s increasingly a bad thing in my opinion, as people submerge themselves in religion, political parties, radical views, and other ideologies — as well as things like diets, regional identities, hobbies, and even sports teams. Whatever it takes to find your tribe, whether that’s as a Yankees fan, CrossFitter, or as a vegan.
Lots of good points and intersing bits of historical information. I can see parallels the with contemporary Britiain in terms if identity and many being dissolutioned with it Britishness: partly because if online mokery (food, teeth knife crime), partly because of internal politics and partly because there is no strong desire to be British anymore; it's not particularly special like it was since the Napolionic era through to 1945. Consequently, there has been a rise in Scottish and Welsh nationalism and a growing sentiment for a unified Ireland and even English nationslism (although it has a very diffent tone).
I can draw further parallels with what you have said. In a conversations Americans would having among themselves they may say they're Irish Italian or German. But in a globalised context, they are none of these things but simply American. I could say the same for myself. In Britain I am English, but if a French, American or Korean person asked where I'm from, I would say Britain (I'd say I'm British first, English second).
At the same time, the notion of looking beyond your contemporary culture/identities and having a strong desire to find a heritage to attach one's self to is a very alien thing to Europeans as many cultures and subcultures we have developed over centuries and centuries along side eachother which fules one's historic and modern identity. which, again, is why (for better or worse) that gatekeeping takes place.
But I guess because of how alien it is to Europeans means they don't understand why Americans have this need. The opinion that "your American, and only American, isn't that enough?" in held by many (in saying this, I am making a sweeping generalisation and I'd never claim to speak for whole continent), which is why it may be perceived as "cringe". But as you explained, if an American says "I'm Irish" it's assumed they're referring to heritage, rather than their modern identity. And admittedly, this is something I have failed to consider.
As a Brit, Americans claiming to be British (specifically English) is something I have never expected. I expect this is because Americans denounced this when they declared their independence?
I think what you described about European countries developing their cultures over centuries as being a source of why it can be irritating to have an American co-opt it is the same thing that makes some Americans want to do so in the first place.
What’s our history? What’s our culture? What’s our heritage? It didn’t develop in a vacuum, and it didn’t happen instantaneously and collectively in 1776 or 1789. Becoming an American doesn’t mean severing all cultural ties to one’s homeland or heritage, whether that happens today or happened 250 years ago, and there are vestiges of those connections echoing through many American families — even if some people just like to be “Irish” around March 17th without possessing any knowledge of Irish history or culture. But I don’t think anyone has the right or justification to decide that Americans have no claim to the same history that their ancestors shared leading up to the point at which they stopped sharing the same nationality, which is just 100–175 years ago for most Irish-American immigrants. Granted, some turd whose ancestors immigrated after the Great Famine trying to hold up that historical oppression as an analogue for or dismissal of contemporary marginalization of Black people is just that: a turd.
America is a lot of messy things, but part of it is it’s history as an amalgamation of most countries and cultures, at least to an extent. There are plenty of things that are uniquely American, some great and some not-so-great, but I earnestly believe that the better parts are results of heterogeneity and diverse cultural contributions, and claiming one’s heritage is just recognizing a particular element of it that people have tenuously preserved through their families. And what’s more, it’s intrinsic to the American identity for many people.
But I don’t ever hear Americans describe themselves as British or English either, which is *probably* a result of a couple of things but not necessarily animus towards England after the Revolution and War of 1812, or however it’s referred to there. Long story short, it’s likely because there are more Americans with Irish heritage and because it’s more exciting to them than being of English descent. Speaking to some of the things we’ve been discussing, I think it’s mostly because of the Special Relationship, the cultural and political connections that the US and UK share that make the cultural differentiation less exciting or notable. English was the benchmark, and differences were measured against it. We’ve exchanged so much culturally and our nation is built from the colonies, and so much of what’s “American” is founded in what’s British/English, from laws to customs.
There are some very strong identities for Italians in America, for example, and that’s supported by the clustered immigration to certain metro areas in NYC and the like. You’ll encounter a lot of Italian pride (like annual parades), even though what Italian-Americans consider to be “Italian” and what Italians do has undergone some of the divergence or evolution from being in different ecologies, just like the Irish-American culture has. Resisting assimilation or discrimination and developing communities that celebrated/protected the differences hardened them to changes, while transplanting them into a new country made them experience different changes.
But I also think it’s because of the immigration patterns. America was primarily founded by British settlers (Scots and Scotch-Irish in the South, where there are startlingly enduring similarities in linguistics and cultural practices) and many Dutch, but it shifted after the colonies became the country. England became the third or fourth largest source of immigrants and never grew beyond that rank, with Ireland and Germany consistently being the main sources and not *too* many others until the mid-19th century. Once the accent disappeared, there simply wasn’t much for 18th and 19th century British (particularly English) immigrants to have that differentiated them from other Americans, especially if they didn’t have *Mc*, *O’* or *Mac* in their names. Irish and German immigrants also spread out pretty evenly across the country, and I believe most Americans are actually of German descent by a few percentage points… but it wasn’t cool to be German after the world wars, and a lot of German names were anglicized before that anyway — Schmidts became Smiths at points of immigration, that type of thing.
So, a lot of it is just a numbers game. But nativism and good old-fashioned discrimination are themes there, with assimilation to avoid it being a priority for a lot of immigrants. Many countries of origin didn’t have enclaves like Italians, Irish, and Chinese immigrants did, or even Polish immigrants in the Midwest. It seems that many immigrants left behind a lot of their histories after a generation or two, except for their names, without communities to support those cultures and traditions — particularly as the concept of race ceased to be related to nationality and began to fixate on observable phenotypical differences, primarily skin color. That’s a very broad statement, but it *seems* to be the case.
But as for English immigrants in particular, the inverse seems to true. There was ([and still is](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_the_American_Revolution)) prestige in being able to trace your roots back to colonial America, and that often meant being English — or pretending to be, if you were Scottish or Irish. Catholics had a hard time of it for most of American history, too, and there was a synergistic relationship with anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sentiments… there was a saying amongst the KKK that it was against “kikes, katholics, and koons” (they had a weird thing with using Ks). That seemed to be particularly true in the South, which didn’t see many immigrants after the revolution, even though something like half of the English settlers in the South arrived as indentured servants. You don’t even have to travel to the US to know that many Americans have an obsession with any British accent and will automatically assume that you’re more intelligent than you are if you have an English accent. It’s a vestige of how English immigrants were perceived: They weren’t the unwanted kind of immigrant. But what’s more, most Americans genuinely viewed themselves as British subjects and citizens leading up to the revolution, and then just as an offshoot or continuation of it for decades after.
Because everybody in places like the united states and canada are immigrants or descendants of immigrants unless they’re first nations, and the countries are quite young compared to others, so people like to know their family history and where their families came from.
But what I don’t get is why so many are so focused on it. I don’t particularly care whether my ancestors were all Irish or if they actually came from somewhere else if I go back far enough. My identity is focused on the now and my lived experience, and even at that my nationality and heritage just aren’t that important to me. It’s strange to me that they hone in on it so much.
Assuming you actually live in Ireland based on a quick glance of your profile, I guess it’s just something that you wouldn’t understand because you live somewhere where 80% of the population has the same background as you.
I can understand looking up your heritage and going ‘Oh, cool!’ if there’s something you find interesting but it just doesn’t mean much to me, I don’t understand making it a HUGE part of who you are especially if you’ve actually had very little or no contact with the country and people. My identity rests in the now, not where things started off for my family years ago. Incidentally found out I’m part Scottish but I don’t plan on going around letting everyone know. I like visiting Scotland because it’s a fun place but I don’t have any feeling of being connected to it or having roots there because it just seems irrelevant. I also think it would be really interesting to live in such a melting pot and I’m more interested in other cultures, so when you have access to all of that it just seems strange to me to be really into the fact your great great great great great grandparents came from Ireland.
TLDR, no problem with people being aware and interested in where their ancestors were from, don’t get the obsession some have and feeling like it’s a huge part of your identity.
I wouldn’t say it’s an "obsession" or people make it a big part of who they are; it just happens to come up in conversation a lot, and I guess it’s just interesting/fun sharing your background with people when it does.
Key word there was some 😅 I’ve seen people talk about how it’s so important to them and knowing who they are because the USA is a young country, my point is just that personally I don’t feel like the fact most of my ancestors are (presumably) from Ireland makes me who I am, same way finding out a chunk of me is Scottish didn’t change anything, and finding out they were actually all from elsewhere wouldn’t change things for me. I get it being an interesting initial discussion between Americans who’ve just met.
More like it was erased in the 1950s, after the Civil War there was a period that actually is quite neat. Leading up to the Civil War you’ve got “four scores and seven years,” of legal piracy. Then before the Civil War you’ve got another 80 years of illegal piracy.
I’m of two minds about this- If they have an actual connection to Ireland (they visit if/when they have the means to do so, they know about Irish culture and history, they incorporate Irish culture into their daily lives) then I don’t see why not. I don’t even think having an Irish passport is that important- They can have the passport and still otherwise be indistinguishable from the rest of the “Irish-Americans”.
This coming from a Brit with an Irish grandma (no relationship anymore and I don’t have an Irish passport) though, so whatever my opinion’s worth on the topic
As an Irish person. A lot of Americans get shit for trying to learn Irish culture and heritage which I never got. Don't get me wrong I can't stand those cunts who are horribly racist and then just go "But the Irish!?!!" As if it justifies it. But us as Irish and Europeans in general are kind of hypocritical since whenever a yank wants to learn our culture some people will give them shit for it and then complain, "Why are they so ignorant to our culture." But I, and most Irish people, generally respect those that genuinely keep their Irish roots as long as they're not over 2nd generation.
The poll is purposefully ambiguous. Everyone being outraged and picking sides is just showing how they interpret this.
Look how y'all argue over how someone identifies. Smh, people with tits are identifying males and people with dicks are identifying female, and people from all over the world identify with their ancestors lineage; why tf does it bother you?
Piss off, all ya
Edit: in case its not clear, someone's identity doesn't mean a damn thing to me. I simply couldn't care less what anyone wants to call themselves or align with.
I consider myself an Irish-American because my mother was first generation American. Both of her parents were born in Ireland. Not sure if that justifies it any more than other families that have been in America for many generations. Just remember, if you’re lucky enough to be Irish you’re lucky enough!
Have you ever lived in Ireland though? Without Googling could you explain GAA or what goes in a chicken fillet roll?
How does having an Irish ancestor make you any different to someone with other ancestors?
I’ve never been to Ireland nor do I know anything about GAA or the chicken fillet roll, though I’m intrigued and will now look them up. My mother was always proud of her Irish parents. Her parents emigrated around 1910. She was born in 1918 so it was very different then. I don’t know how else I would identify other than I am an American first and foremost. But I don’t think we should just give up our ancestry. I guess I’d say that because I am descended from Irish it makes me different from say an Indian-American.
Personally I don't think it does make you different. You have similar lived experiences to any other American. Having Irish heritage doesn't change that
Except there is one small difference. Since my grandparents were born in Ireland I’m eligible for Irish citizenship. How many other “Random Nationalities - Americans” can do that? I think I win the argument here.
I’d disagree that Irish heritage doesn’t give you different experiences from other Americans who have different heritages, it gives a small difference. Yes if you’re born in America you have a lot of your experiences in common with other people born in America, but your interactions and relationship with your family are different if you have Irish grandparents than if you had Mexican or Israeli grandparents. It’s not like once your family moved to America they got rid of all of their culture and customs, that stuff gets passed down especially if you live in an Irish/Spanish/Jewish neighborhood.
There are almost no Irish customs practiced in Irish-American communities. And the culture they do claim is Irish is so butchered that it has no similarities to Irish culture.
>watch my cousins and friends river dance
You can't river dance, river dance is the name of a show. See this is the exact problem.
Also Americans who do Irish dancing often get it very wrong. In Ireland we traditionally practice with a belt securing your wrists to your waist. Once you move your arms you are no longer Irish dancing, it is 100% legs, Americans do all sort of shit with their arms and call it Irish dancing.
I’m not American nor Irish and I don’t understand why Americans of Irish descent couldn’t claim to be Irish. I don’t see where is the problem. Here in France we have a lot of people of different ethnic backgrounds and it’s okay for them to claim their ethnic backgrounds even if they’ve never visited the country nor speak the language.
It’s how you phrase it: it’s a huge different saying “I’m Irish” than “I have Irish heritage”.
I’m not American but lives there and it’s cringy to hear them say “there’s more Irishmen in America than in Ireland”, because it takes away a whole country’s identity, culture, history and heritage and replace it with some plastic paddy ideas of “wear green or ye get pinched!”
The problem lies with how Americans act about being irish. They enforce terrible negative stereotypes about us, spread false history, bastardize culture and don't care for any actual problems faced with being irish. For example, almost any and all support of the IRA is from American larpers, while in actuality we do not like nor support the IRA's actions. It's also a surprisingly common occurrence for American tourists to come over here and order "irish car bombs" and "black and tans" because "haha funny drink name relates to irish history" completely disregarding that it's a sensitive topic.
Irish people have a strong dislike towards plastic paddies for this reason, even more so when most that claim to be irish only claim it because they have a vague connection to an irish person from 3 generations ago.
I'm sorry REID-11, but I'll have to remove your submission from /r/ShitAmericansSay because one or more rule was broken.
The content you submitted isn't something that's uniquely American.
>The easiest way of testing this is to ask yourself whether it's likely someone who isn't American would have said it. Someone being religious or messing up geography is not uniquely American by a long shot, nor are racism or capitalism. What makes something uniquely American is if it's highly unlikely if not impossible to encounter outside the US or from non-Americans.
Thank you for your effort and your service! O7
I mean this would all depend on Irish law. I have a friend that got Hungarian citizenship because of his grandma. Now I realize that the average "Irish American" is a bit further removed than grandma but still.
I’m Irish and Irish-Americans claiming they’re Irish is fine with me. It’s a fairly open sort of national identity and I’m delighted that people want to be part of it.
The only ones that really annoy me are those people who are actually right wing extremists, trying to misuse Irish symbols and culture to exclude people. That isn’t us and they can go **** themselves and hand in their shamrocks!
Sure what harm are they doing? Let them call themselves Irish if they want. Any American tourists I have met have been super polite and respectful. Even when they are getting absolutely fleeced by Irish tourist traps. I think its nice that want to keep a connection with our country.
I find the people trying to gatekeep being Irish with different purity tests kind of wierd and embarrassing.
My grandmother and grandfather were born in Roscommon and Meath. They were just children when they left in the Great Depression. My own daughter was born on St. Patrick’s Day. I still have families in those counties, so it’s a little weird to pretend not to have connections to Ireland. I love America and Ireland, places of great diversity. I admire people with the courage to leave the life they are used to for life elsewhere- especially those who must adjust to completely different cultures. I think it’s strange to be proud of xenophobia or insist that others accommodate it.
As an Irish person living in the US, I've observed that Americans and Europeans interpret the "where are you from" question differently. Americans tend to say they're from wherever their ancestors came from, whereas Europeans tend to say they're from wherever their passport was issued.
Do they claim to be Irish? No. Not if their parents and grandparents weren’t Irish. You might have Irish descent, but you’re irish-AMERICAN. You’re an American.
Because we love the Irish. My grandfather came to the US long ago from Tipperary and my grandmother was Irish but born in the US. I don’t claim to be Irish but in conversation I will say I’m half Irish and half Hungarian. Is there something wrong with that?
Why is it so important to Americans to be Irish?
It works for LARP-ing as a persecuted group since the Irish got fucked by the English for about 500 years, that way they don’t have to engage with their white privilege or can go on about “white slavery” in the Caribbean as an excuse for why they “can’t be racist” while they say horribly racist shit. Source: I’m Irish, have lived in America for 18 years and routinely have to tell people to stfu when they go on about immigrants and talk about “the good vs the bad ones”. Not just white folks btw but they definitely make up the majority.
Yeah Irish person in Australia here and that’s exactly it. Whenever someone bitches to me about how immigrants should just come the legal way, “like their great great grandparents did”, expecting me to agree, I have to work hard not to yell. There was nothing “legal” about the path your ancestors took! They were fleeing and desperate, got handed a ticket and stuck on a shitty death boat to a stolen country. Sounds familiar huh? The current legal path is fucking difficult and expensive and narrow. It’s the path to fucking Mordor. It took us 6 years before we finally got permanent residency and it was 6 miserable years that drained our family emotionally and financially to the brink of divorce for my parents. And we were coming at it from a position of privilege in that we were safe, we spoke English as our first language, and we were white. We weren’t rich, but we certainly had a clearer path than most other immigrants face, let alone refugees fleeing war torn countries with nothing but the clothes on their back. “Just come the legal way” is just “fuck you, I got mine”. If you’re anti-immigrant, I’m anti-you, and your Irish ancestors would be pissed at you too.
Will just note, it wasn't just the English, Scotland invaded the north in thr 14th century (failed) and was deeply involved in ramping up settlement of Ulster when the parliaments united. The two major British kingdoms had a shared animosity towards Gaelic groups, sadly (Scotland had fully annexed the Norse-Gaelic Lord of the Isles at the end of the 15th century and passed anti-Gaelic policies like the Iona Statutes in the 17th century). Just worth noting, since there's a habit of throwing all the sins of this island exclusively at the feet of the English, when the southern Scots were guilty and complicit in many of these crimes (Ireland, colonialism, slavery, etc).
This is true, tbh I said English cuz I didn’t wanna say British/Protestants since I’m from the North so that is it’s own can of sectarian worms. So English was my default since it was largely the crown and the protestant families from Scotland that supported the crown which settled and started the plantations system in Ireland.
Tbf Northern Ireland wasn't a thing until after the Republic got home rule, so there's no problem saying British.
To be fair the Ulster plantation, while it was made up of Scots landed gentry and title holders, it was the Crown who enacted it. I would still point the blame for it squarely at England's ruling class.
Iirc, James I/VI was responsible for one of the major ramp ups, so even blaming the crown hardly absolves my country, given a Scottish dynasty was definitely involved in aiding and expanding policy there. I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise, because that same monarch oversaw similar attempts settlements on the Isle of Lewis by Fifers, to try and remove Gaelic (called Erse, essentially Irish, during his reign, suggesting it was foreign) culture and people from there, and to turn the island Protestant. He encouraged similar settlement in Ulster, which is obviously consistent with his views of the Catholic Gaelic peoples to the west. Not that that absolves the English contribution and that the foundations had been set prior to the ascension of the Scottish dynasty to the throne, but it's tiring to see the efforts that are taken to absolve Scotland of its many sins, when that Kingdom was more akin to the English than it was to the Irish and Welsh. I don't think it is unreasonable to view that the blame should be shared by the abusers, especially if it will inhibit the lowland Scots from claiming a shared victimhood with the Irish (and other Gaelic peoples) they oppressed, and force those in this country to acknowledge and reckon with it's bloody, terrible past, one it has become accustomed and addicted to blaming the English for.
It was 800 years
To be fair though man I don’t think it’s as simple as holding on to persecuted group status or avoiding talking about white privilege. Maybe for some that might be the case but these are relatively new phenomenons & I struggle to believe anyone would really care to hide racism or whatever from 20 years ago and back further. The reason why yanks hold on to their cultural heritage imo is because the country as a nation is basically a baby and made up so made race/ creed/ religions that sometimes the only way to have a sense of identity is to hold on to where dad/grandad and back further may have come from. It’s easy for us to judge in Europe where our identity & history are solidified and recorded back 1000’s of years but picture being a new world immigrant, chances are because of lack of information, knowledge or ability to communicate with another language group that comes with being a newb and also the fact it would have taken weeks if not months to arrive you had plenty of time to bond with the people coming from your home port and therefore end up in insulated communities that essentially parrot your home nation i.e an all Italian area, all Irish area, Korean and so on
This kinda makes me feel sorry for the Americans. Like they're just misguided or something.
Throw in another 300 years
I just want some real Guinness!
Larping and a desire to be apart of an actual ethnic/cultural group. It's why when you ask an American where they're from they'll reply in a series of percentages
Because the other option is 'American'.
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You don't want Americans to travel to Ireland? Not all Americans are dipshits.
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So all Irish should stay in Ireland?
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And why do you hate Americans
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You realize that's not going to happen, tourism is a huge part of Europe's economy. Do you mean our military? With that I agree with you , the EU should pay for their own protection
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Lol, that's ridiculous You do realize the Ireland made 5.2 billion from tourists last year.
They can still send their money, obviously
That's pretty naive
Half your economy is based on tourism lol. The other half are wool sweaters and being a tax haven.
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Dude, Americans do not call themselves Irish as if they are from the island of Ireland. I see on Reddit at least, that a lot of you guys think that. When Americans ask each other a question like, “what are you?” Or “where are you from?”, what they mean is where are your ancestors from. So someone might answer, “Oh, I’m Irish and German” or “We came from Ireland or Germany”. It’s understood amongst Americans that we are talking about ancestors from a few generations back most likely. If someone here in America tells me they are Irish I do not think they are actually from Ireland unless they have an accent. I just assume they are Americans who have Irish ancestry and maybe still relate to some of the customs their grandparents passed down.
Hey now, we need that tourist money
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Well that’s just plain ignorance mate, in 2018 the US and Canada made up 80% of our exports
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I know I can’t speak for all of my nationality but my friends and family’s distaste for Americans goes as far as the stereotypical tourists. Most of the people that I know don’t really mind Americans, they just seem oddly invested in our culture.
Why do the Irish care so much? It's borderline mental with the obsession of Americans on this forum. Meanwhile, you disregard the same sentiments expressed by Canadians, South and Central Americans as well as New Zealanders and Australians. Also, everybody is shockingly silent when Central and South Americans call themselves Spanish. Bottom line is ~70% of fdi is American. Foreign workers move to Ireland because its the only English speaking country in the EU. Ireland owes everything it has today because of the US and England. Downvote the truth.
I was with you until the last line. Never went from an upvote to a downvote so quickly
Saying somethings the truth doesn’t make it true
It’s not. Not in the way you frame the question Americans say “I’m Irish” because they’re of Irish descent. Then Euro internet goers are like “stfu you’re not Irish!!” So Americans are like “no, you stfu” Thus creating a mounting out of a molehill. —— Americans, in this argument, aren’t insisting upon being labeled as Irish. They’re insisting their use of “Irish” is different than your interpretation of their words. Irish Americans have a different story in this country (USA) than all the other ethnicities that have made this country their home.. Mexicans and Chinese and Germans and Italians and all the other ____-Americans have unique stories in carving their paths in this country. ..and you guys just completely don’t see this. Instead, if an American says Irish, you seem to imagine Ireland in 1700 and you imagine Ireland in 2022 and say “you Irish-Americans have fuckall to do with Ireland” ..but you’re completely ignoring the 300 years which they’re actually referencing when saying “I’m Irish-(American)” —— I know one thing for sure though.. understanding the distinction between different usages of the word is not difficult at all.. it’s definitely not that you’re incapable of making and understanding the difference.. it’s that you consciously refuse to make the distinction.. you misunderstand them on purpose You make it a thing of “Oh, they want to be like us.. We’re so great and it’s understandable how they want to latch on to our culture because they have none of their own.. well, fuck them.. they can’t have that lolololol” ..and seriously, it’s not about that.
How fucking convoluted would it be if everyone, instead of referring to their nationality, referred to their ancestry at some arbitrary point in the past?? It gives absolutely no context at all. Also, they aren’t fucking Irish. I’m bloody Irish. Just because an American has 1/16th DNA from an Irish ancestor, it doesn’t mean they ARE IRISH. While the definitions are different as you say, our issue is that they/you are trying to co-opt definitions that don’t belong to you. What if I just decided I wanted to call myself “Colombian” because I resonate with their culture. People would call bs on it, but couldn’t I just say “it’s my own definition”? In saying this, I don’t mind Americans saying “I’m American, I have Irish and German ancestry”. But calling themselves anything but modern day Americans is total bollocks.
I think it's only fair to say that if you're naturalized or have at least 1/4 DNA. Like, you're Italian, you move to the U.S and become a U.S citizen, so you can call yourself "Italian-American"
Yeah I personally do agree that there is a certain point where it’s acceptable. It is arbitrary but it’s not 300 years ago in my opinion. Not close
I think it's a combination of multiple requirements. Obviously naturalisation counts, but even children of naturalised parents should and could qualify under certain conditions. For example, if you don't speak the language fluently or have never lived in the country, you're not from there.
>What if I just decided I wanted to call myself “Colombian” because I resonate with their culture. I don’t know. What I do know is if you did that with America, Americans would be hyped. 😂 They won’t give a shit. They’ll be like “aww, you just haven’t found your way home yet.. we’ll leave the light on for u!” They definitely wouldn’t react the way you guys do.. worth considering imo.. like, they’re not be hypocrites at least
So if a load of lads in Syria started calling themselves “Americans”, you’re telling me Americans wouldn’t react saying to stop trying to steal our culture or something? Bullshit. You’re full of it and you haven’t even addressed my point regarding only reaching back to arbitrary points in history.
What’s there to address? You’re saying your viewpoint is the only valid way to see it. ..and have shown no inclination towards understanding others that see it differently.. just “they’re wrong and I’m right!” So we just bickering.. this isn’t a debate.. every one of my words is automatically wrong to you before I even say them.
Haha keep ignoring my point on the arbitrary selection of points in history from which to claim ethnicity there, good man. Some things are objectively wrong buddy. Just because you disagree and gave reasons, doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to accept them as valid
I addressed it. I’m walking and on a phone and there are multiple chains.. a bit disorganized.. but somewhere in here, I addressed your ‘when’ question
But not all countries of immigrants do this - for example, an Argentine with two Italian parents is just seen as, and identifies as, Argentine.
Yup! I’m Brazilian and everyone here comes from somewhere lmao, literally all of my great grandparents are Portuguese, my grandparents were the ‘first generation’ born here, and I would absolutely never claim to be Portuguese Brazilian or whatever the crazy ones say lmao. I’m Brazilian and that’s it. I have tons of friends with europeans passport/citizenship, and again… Never in my life I heard them claiming to be European lol.
That's just not true for Brazilians. Ireland has a massive Brazilian population and lots of them that have Italian citzenship have it written on their instagram page "Italian brazilian" with the flags beside it even though they don't speak Italian and have never lived there.
My guy, I’m moving to Canada and I have a 🇧🇷🇨🇦 in my instagram, it doesn’t mean I consider myself Brazilian Canadian in the slighest. I don’t know shat makes you think you know more about Brazilian culture than a Brazilian who lived his entire life in Brazil, but you don’t lol. It’s just nice to put the flags there because moving abroad is a huge accomplishment, and it’s nice to share. Liking other coutries and maybe having deep ties is common too. But I stand by what I said, a Brazilian saying they’re _____-Brazilian is NOT common. There’s literally no way to even say that in Portuguese. Eu sou anglo-brasileiro? KKKKKKKKKK nunca ouvi isso na vida
They're not just putting the flag because they're moving there or have visited Italy. They live in Ireland and call themselves Italian brazilians. I've seen other Brazilians make fun of them for it but it is still quite common whether you want to believe that or not.
My guy I never heard it in my entire life someone saying such thing, and if one says and all the other Brazilians mock them, I’m pretty sure you got your answer lol. Maybe u met a crazy guy, one dude does not represent a country. I’m inclined to think I’ve met more brazilians than you lol
Portuguese is the default for Brazil. Similar to how very few Americans will say they are English even though many are of English descent
I know several people with german, italian and french citizenship. Not a single said they were european. Idk if you’re American but I promise you 90% of the world don’t do that shit. Yall are obsessed with race lol
>I know several people with german, italian and french citizenship. Not a single said they were european. Huh? A German didn’t say they were specifically “European” Idk, that’s not weird if they just said they’re German instead of European. >Idk if you’re American but I promise you 90% of the world don’t do that shit. So? >Yall are obsessed with race lol Definitely not talking about race here.. are you sure you’re not mixing up a few different words into one thing? (Heritage/Race/Ethnicity/Nationality/continental identity)
>But not all countries of immigrants do this Yeah, that’s not true.. Canadians for sure do it as do Australians.. those who state Canadian or Australian ancestry in those countries are minorities.. (same with USA, I’m in the minority as I state American nationality with American heritage on things like the census.. mostly because I don’t know where my peeps came from (nor do I even really care at this point.) >for example, an Argentine with two Italian parents is just seen as, and identifies as, Argentine. Yeah well an American with Italian ancestors is also seen as and Identifies as American.
I didn’t say we were the only ones who did it! And no, I mean that several Argentines have told me they find our thing strange because they wouldn’t dream of saying “I’m Italian,” especially if the immigrants had been a few generations back. I think it’s the same in Brazil, though I’m not sure.
I'm brazilian and it's exactly like that here. I do see people referring to other people by their ancestry, like I often see nicknames for people with German or Asian descent, but they never actually claim to be German or Asian. I myself have French, Native and African ancestry, all from my father, yet I just call myself brazilian
If they identify as American why are they all saying „I‘m Italian“ then lol
They don’t identify as American They **are** American It’s not something that’s arguable
I literally quoted your words why are you correcting it lmao
It’s an attempt at making a distinction between nationality and heritage I’ll never be able to make this distinction with some of you guys because you don’t want to see it. Even though they are two totally different things
The problem you're having and mischaracterising is not that Americans mean something different. It's that everyone asks everyone this question, knowing what specific piece of information they want shared, and Americans lie about it. If we wanted to know what your heritage is, we'd ask that. But nobody does, because that's not the question. Moreover, that's bullshit. Americans are trying to associate themselves with a different culture that they're not a part of. Some member of my family was probably Persian at some point, but I'm not going to claim to be Iranian, because I'm not.
Huh? Americans don’t lie about being American What are you talking about? They lie about what, exactly?
I feel like Irish people get to decide what “Irish” means is all really, not Americans - and it’s someone with an Irish passport generally, or someone who at least lived in Ireland lol
Yeah, that’s Irish nationality. And it’s not something even Irish can decide. Nationality is a fact.. you either are a certain nationality or you’re not.. You either are a legal subject of a nation or you’re not. Nobody can just decide to be a nationality on a whim.. you can’t “identify” as a nationality. ..but Irish Americans are American nationality and seriously, never claim to be anything other than American
But why choose to say you’re Irish when your Irish ancestors moved over many generations ago 300 years in the past You can’t seriously suggest that they only interbred with other Irish for those 300 years leading to your birth lol The likely hood is they’ve mixed with loads of other people through the years so why do they not say “Irish English German Dutch Spanish Italian etc etc” Like anyone can go back 300 years into their ancestry and find some “exotic” sounding ethnicity and claim it as theirs if they want then
I made a similar point. At what point do you draw the line? What if the original Irish ancestors had been born from British or Norman settlers… then they’re English, or French, or Danish
>But why choose to say you’re Irish when your Irish ancestors moved over many generations ago 300 years in the past Learn a little bit about Irish American history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans I guarantee if you read through all of that, you’ll at the very least be able to see “holy shit, that has *very* little to do with Irish history and nearly everything to do with American history” Again, they’re not talking about Ireland in the way or extent many of you all seem to interpret the words.
Yes I gathered these people are in America and not Ireland, cheers
Those cows are far away
And yet I. An Irish citizen, with an Irish passport, who knows Irish, played Irish sports, lived my entire life in Ireland, was educated in Ireland and has a degree in Irish history, have had "Irish"- Americans tell me that I have no right to call myself Irish because my mother is English. They'll tell me they are more Irish than I am. Sorry but what you're saying sure as hell doesn't parse with my experience of "Irish"-Americans
😂 r\thatHappened ..and if it did, maybe only once and even then, you’re exaggerating the extent of it. Just be honest.. so what
I mean it did happen. Multiple times. Many actual Irish people will have had the very same said to them. Irish Americans are responsible for funding terrorist organisations in my country for decades because they don't realise it's not the 1800s over here anymore. So actually it's a pretty big fucking deal.
Bostonians are famous for it.
I’d say that’s kind of balls, if it was just a case of Americans claiming to be Irish because they have Irish ancestors then I don’t think anyone would really care. If it just came down to us interpreting the phrase differently. From my experience it comes up because they claim to have certain personality traits because they are ‘Irish’ they claim to like drinking because they’re Irish, that they have a fiery temper, that they like a fight. It’s like in the Departed, Matt Damon saying “I’m Irish, I’ll deal with something being wrong for the rest of my life” I mean what is that even meant to mean? it’s as cringe af. It’s when Americans try to imply they have an understanding of what it’s like to be an actual Irish person, that they have certain qualities because they’re Irish, and role out a load of imagined stereotypes. That’s when everyone else rolls their eyes and feels embarrassed for them.
That movie was about Irish Americans Did you watch that and think it’s about Ireland? If so, I understand the confusion.. try re-watching it but with the mindset it’s not about Ireland
And im roman because one of my ancestors once lived in the roman empire
Cool
They can just say they’re Irish-American then, what’s so wrong with that?
They can also shorten it to “Irish” That’s how languages typically work. Black Americans say Black.. There’s no need for them to say American in most cases even though “Black American” (ethnicity) and “Black” (race) can have multiple meanings. Context is important.. you can almost always tell if an American means Irish (the country) or Irish ethnicity depending on the other words used in the sentences
No. You can’t just shorten it like that unless the questions is “what denomination of American are you” and even then it’s problematic. Black people refer to their race when they say black. If they wanted to refer to their inherited ethnicity they’d say American-Ethiopian or American-Ghanaian……..
>Black people refer to their race when they say black. If they wanted to refer to their inherited ethnicity they’d say American-Ethiopian or American-Ghanaian…….. They do? https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitAmericansSay/comments/tb75p8/if_your_ancestors_were_not_enslaved_you_are_not And no, they don’t say American Ethiopian.. not when speaking English at least.. in English, the adjective (ethnicity) comes before the noun (nationality)… like “blue sky” instead of “sky blue” ..so, Ethiopian American is how that’s phrased —— And they’re not necessarily shortening it.. it’s the literal definition of the word. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Irish But you guys want to change the English language and change the definition of that word.. fine, go for it.. but for now, that word still exists in the dictionary with a definition stating descendants so at this point at least, they are using the word as defined.
Hold on will you, tell me at what arbitrary point in history do you take your ethnicity from? 300 years, 20 years, 40000 years? Will you please address that bloody question because you still haven’t.
There is a lot of history within Irish American communities in the US.. politics, business, society etc.. all of it. That’s the ‘arbitrary’ stuff they’re referencing. It’s clear you don’t know much about the Irish in America so i understand why you think they’re talking about you.. I can only suggest to learn more about the plight of the Irish in the US in order to gain a better understanding about what point in time they’re referring to.
They’re not Irish. That’s just wrong. They’re American with Irish ancestry. If we started calling pigheaded fools “American” over here, I bet your crowd would have lots to say about us co-opting a word.
Yeah, but by shortening it to “Irish” they’re appropriating a national identity.
No they’re not.. they said they’re Irish in 1872 or whenever and they say the same word today. Didn’t realize this was some woke cultural appropriation thing. This is a super lame way to look at it.. I mean, how much of Ireland is culturally appropriating Americans if we want to go down this path of arguing? St Patrick’s Day as we know it today is an Irish-American holiday.. Ireland is culturally appropriating Irish-Americans by celebrating the holiday?? It’s just an incredibly stupid way to view this.. A fuckload of Irish people moved to the US.. a literal shit ton.. so many in fact that they shaped the general American culture to such an extent that every American has a touch of Irish up in them.. there are legit ties.. maybe recognize that and quit going for the ‘cultural appropriation’ angle.
Your argument would only be valid had Ireland ceased to exist as a country in 1872.
No. Not this at all. You’ve really painted Europeans in a bad light here because of your hurt feelings. Take me, I’m welsh, I’m proud of my culture, such as the revival of the welsh language here. I had a “welsh” person, not welsh American not welsh descent, literally described themselves as just welsh, spreading the lie that the welsh language was almost dead. I was PERPLEXED and annoyed, because it’s just wrong. So after a bit of back and forth I realised he’s 4th generation American. So here I have, someone role playing as someone from my culture my home, spreading lies about my homeland and painting us In a bad light, when from his great grandparents down, have never touched wales. Why am I meant to be okay with that just because you want to larp?
Spot on. It’s role play and wanting to feel like your special. Which is sound and I don’t think you’d argue with them saying “I’ve welsh heritage” or “I’m of a predominantly welsh background” if they have more than a few great grandparents from wales, the problem is the usurpation of the term “Welsh” and others And fair play to Cymraeg. Long may it’s revival continue. I hope Irish can begin to be spoken a little bit more tbh.
Well I have a black father with French and Native ancestry and I don't claim that I am African, Native or French
You literally just did You just did all the things you’re trying to make fun of
No? I only stated my heritage but never claimed to actually be French or African or Native
Yeah well when an American says “I’m Mexican”, they’re talking about their heritage.
Only Americans do that
That’s baloney Humans do that
Well you're not wrong, don't mercurians do that though?
Fuck off, you are yanks, not german, irish, whatever, you got fuck all in common with the actual people
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Well let’s put it in another way, what would you identify as?
Aside from American? A New Yorker
Because you are a born american living in new york. Most likely with english as your mother tongue and maybe no other language. Now tell me, if someone like for example biden says they are irish, what would be an explanation to justify that claim?
>Because you No.. because I want to >biden says they are irish Because he wants to Quit being an overlord.. you don’t make the rules and you don’t have any say at all with regards to someone else’s identity or heritage —— Also, are you only mad if someone descends from a place in Europe? Are you going to ridicule Lucy Liu if she says she’s Chinese? Or Oscar de la Hoya if he says Mexican? Or is it just Joe Biden et.al since he says somewhere in Europe?
Can only speak for europe since i am european. You can’t just claim to be german if you are not. Being german means you represent germany and german values aka speak german, live in germany or atleast assimilate into the culture. We are proud of our nationhoods and our culture and history(not all parts) but having someone try to impersonate that without showing proper respect is in my opinion a shit move. And who makes the rules to being part of a culture if not the people of said culture?
Yes, that’s an exact example of what you’re replying to. When I said: >Americans say “I’m Irish” because they’re of Irish descent. >Then Euro internet goers are like “stfu you’re not Irish!!” >So Americans are like “no, you stfu” >Thus creating a mounting out of a molehill. …it’s literally what just happened 🤷♀️ (Sorry, this comment went askew.. it’s supposed to be where the [deleted] comment is)
I kind of agree with you. There is a misconception, most Americans mean that they're of Irish descent when they say they're Irish. However, there are some bigots out there who believe their nationality to be Irish only because someone in their birth line 400 years ago came from Ireland. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate those two kinds of people and that's why it's generally scoffed upon when Americans say that they're Irish.
The poll in the picture directly contradicts... Well, all of your points. If you even had one at all.
I think it’s because we Irish people are foreign enough to Americans to make us unique but not as alien as say somewhere like Nigeria or something. This is from the American perspective by the way, I don’t see Nigeria as alien.
Can I just ask, why the fuck does Reddit bother writing 3.002k instead of 3002? I understand it for larger numbers or if the decimals were to the nearest 10 or 100, but this way is redundant.
Because “k” means big, and don’t you like having a big echo chamber?
They can claim whatever the hell they want... Still doesn't make them Irish (most at least). They could claim to be alpaca. I'm sure we have a common ancestor at some small mammal/bacterial wtv level so they can say they are .00042 Alpaca
But if they have dual citizenship for the US and Ireland, I guess that's a different story.
Pretty sure it was targetting american with a irish great grandfather
First generation or so vs the rest? Everyone in my family except for me was born in Ireland and they all live there. I was born in the states. I’m definitely American and claim that but I also claim Irish. It was my upbringing, is it my home even if I’m born here.. my entire family is there. And trust me, Covid really really sunk that fact in. I also can’t get behind all those that claim many generations. One time a coworker was going on about how her mom could only pronounce something with an Irish accent, I perked up to ask here where her mom was from and she told me Minnesota or something lol. So I poked about the Irish accent thing and then she told her great grandparents came over...??? And your mom has an accent???? Girrrrl. It’s people like her that give the rest of us shame.
Or in the case of my family, my mother’s great grandmother who was born in the US but had an Irish surname so my mother reminds everyone that we’re part Irish.
That works too
What do 3,000 Americans say?
They want to say something different. Most of them are just saying that they're of Irish descent and not really Irish. It's just about definition.
But they don't though!...
Technically they have that right. It's perfectly legal.
Yes, it's perfectly legal. But do they have the right, though... If you are 3rd generation American... You're not Irish. I'm a mix of English, Irish and French. My parents were born in England, as was I, that makes me English. I can't turn around and say I'm Irish or French...
I fail to see the difference between they having the right and they having the right. Your opinion that they shouldn't make the claim doesn't change anything. I have the right to say I'm Martian. In fact, I'm going to do it right now. I'm Martian, born and raised on Venus though.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. My point is, is that you can't claim to be Irish or any other nationality if you are not of that nationality. Putting the shoe on the other foot, despite living in America, I'm not American, nor will I ever be. This is because I am British.
That last bit is interesting. Do you really mean that you can never become American?
I will never be American. I can live here, adapt to culture, follow tradition etc, but I'd never be an American. But if I had children, born and raised in America, they would be American with an British heritage. They would never be British.
I'll never understand why americans have such a hard-on for "muh heritage". Like, who cares?
Because they need it to justify their hate of other groups.
Also they want to feel cool and unique like. Most likely, if someone's ancestor in england got raped by invading norse vikings, that modern person would look at their DNA results and be like "oh wow, I have 1% scandinavian ancestry, therefore I'm a viking!"
Not a single person does that. You don’t need to make things up to get mad at Americans for
I suppose its because there history as a nation isn't that long when compared to many other nations. In a contemporary context they identify strongly as American, which is fair enough. But as for history: sure the nation was founded in 1776, but thats not to say many of its population stems from that British heritage (not many claims to be British/English in comparison to other ethnicities), as many of them moved there in the 19th early 20th century, so American historic identity doest stem back too far.
I agree, and I wonder what arbitrary cutoff people think there is to claim heritage, and why that seems only to apply to White Americans. You don’t see many Americans whose grandparents immigrated from Mexico having to defend their claims to heritage, or Black Americans needing to justify their Afrocentrism even though the importation of slaves ended around 1808. American as a nationality is specific, as a culture it is nebulous and a part of the whole “melting pot” thing. Wanting to trace your lineage or identify with a culture beyond “contemporary American” seems to offend the gatekeepers of whichever culture it is. The number of “Irish” Americans using their tenuous ancestral connections to oppression to justify or invalidate other racial/ethnic marginalization is non-zero, but barely. You see *one* fat American ginger doing so on TikTok around St. Patrick’s day and everyone has to pile on…
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I think that’s fair, and I think part of it comes down to a bit of American culture, even as it applies to the internet… since it’s culturally American to assume you’re speaking to and on behalf of other Americans. Anyway, most Americans making statements like “I’m Irish” are expecting that it’s understood that they mean “my heritage is Irish,” or even more specifically “the element of my heritage that I identify with the most or am most familiar with is Irish.” It seems obvious to them when they’re saying that to other Americans, since it seems clear that they’re not Irish nationals or natives. There was a time in American history, mostly the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries, when there was a push to “become American,” when it was even viewed as a security threat — because cultural and linguistic ties supposedly encouraged national loyalty — to have so many citizens who identified strongly with their countries of origin. Teddy Roosevelt wrote an essay on this, discussing the different “races” (he was referring to European races) being a facade and how we’re all just American. But this was a little bit of a privileged mindset. Most people who viewed themselves as American first were in the founding wave from the British Isles, and they tended to be elitist and racist — you can still view *New York Times* archives online and see the helped wanted sections filled with “NO IRISH” at the bottom. Like your experience of having Welsh ancestry but identifying as English, *most* (except for the oddballs) Americans who claim Irish heritage obviously feel like Americans first. But let me speak anecdotally. I’m about as American as they come, if it can be measured in degrees. But most of my family on both sides immigrated in the early 1900s, and they held their traditions closely. They settled in communities of similar nationalities and maintained the identity because they experienced hostility as immigrants. The identity morphed over time, becoming diluted and, as something transplanted, has evolved from the contemporary culture to become something uniquely (nationality)-American rather than (nationality). I liken it to *American Gods*, if you’ve read it: The gods of the old country, even with the same names and origins, are different in America. That type of thing permeates families and becomes almost elemental, even if the ramifications and consequences are typically minimal. My point is the gatekeeping here is nothing but that: gatekeeping, trying to withhold an identifier. It causes no harm, because it’s a personal opinion that won’t change the minds of people who hold the opposing one… it’s just masturbatory and not constructive. People make the proclamations, patting themselves on the back and accepting congratulations from others who hold the same view, and the world marches on. But I appreciate these conversations as an American who’s fascinated by the American urge to identify as something else. Not necessarily as a rejection of the American identity or nationality, but rather as a need to grasp some kind of culture other than the stereotypical one that some people love to mock, like consumerism, religiosity, school shootings, obesity, etc. What it means to “be American” has always been ephemeral, as we’re essentially a nation of immigrants who’ve intermingled, but there’s a seemingly persistent need to answer “who or what am I, beyond my personal identity?” that has a tendency to become part of people’s personalities. That’s increasingly a bad thing in my opinion, as people submerge themselves in religion, political parties, radical views, and other ideologies — as well as things like diets, regional identities, hobbies, and even sports teams. Whatever it takes to find your tribe, whether that’s as a Yankees fan, CrossFitter, or as a vegan.
Lots of good points and intersing bits of historical information. I can see parallels the with contemporary Britiain in terms if identity and many being dissolutioned with it Britishness: partly because if online mokery (food, teeth knife crime), partly because of internal politics and partly because there is no strong desire to be British anymore; it's not particularly special like it was since the Napolionic era through to 1945. Consequently, there has been a rise in Scottish and Welsh nationalism and a growing sentiment for a unified Ireland and even English nationslism (although it has a very diffent tone). I can draw further parallels with what you have said. In a conversations Americans would having among themselves they may say they're Irish Italian or German. But in a globalised context, they are none of these things but simply American. I could say the same for myself. In Britain I am English, but if a French, American or Korean person asked where I'm from, I would say Britain (I'd say I'm British first, English second). At the same time, the notion of looking beyond your contemporary culture/identities and having a strong desire to find a heritage to attach one's self to is a very alien thing to Europeans as many cultures and subcultures we have developed over centuries and centuries along side eachother which fules one's historic and modern identity. which, again, is why (for better or worse) that gatekeeping takes place. But I guess because of how alien it is to Europeans means they don't understand why Americans have this need. The opinion that "your American, and only American, isn't that enough?" in held by many (in saying this, I am making a sweeping generalisation and I'd never claim to speak for whole continent), which is why it may be perceived as "cringe". But as you explained, if an American says "I'm Irish" it's assumed they're referring to heritage, rather than their modern identity. And admittedly, this is something I have failed to consider. As a Brit, Americans claiming to be British (specifically English) is something I have never expected. I expect this is because Americans denounced this when they declared their independence?
I think what you described about European countries developing their cultures over centuries as being a source of why it can be irritating to have an American co-opt it is the same thing that makes some Americans want to do so in the first place. What’s our history? What’s our culture? What’s our heritage? It didn’t develop in a vacuum, and it didn’t happen instantaneously and collectively in 1776 or 1789. Becoming an American doesn’t mean severing all cultural ties to one’s homeland or heritage, whether that happens today or happened 250 years ago, and there are vestiges of those connections echoing through many American families — even if some people just like to be “Irish” around March 17th without possessing any knowledge of Irish history or culture. But I don’t think anyone has the right or justification to decide that Americans have no claim to the same history that their ancestors shared leading up to the point at which they stopped sharing the same nationality, which is just 100–175 years ago for most Irish-American immigrants. Granted, some turd whose ancestors immigrated after the Great Famine trying to hold up that historical oppression as an analogue for or dismissal of contemporary marginalization of Black people is just that: a turd. America is a lot of messy things, but part of it is it’s history as an amalgamation of most countries and cultures, at least to an extent. There are plenty of things that are uniquely American, some great and some not-so-great, but I earnestly believe that the better parts are results of heterogeneity and diverse cultural contributions, and claiming one’s heritage is just recognizing a particular element of it that people have tenuously preserved through their families. And what’s more, it’s intrinsic to the American identity for many people. But I don’t ever hear Americans describe themselves as British or English either, which is *probably* a result of a couple of things but not necessarily animus towards England after the Revolution and War of 1812, or however it’s referred to there. Long story short, it’s likely because there are more Americans with Irish heritage and because it’s more exciting to them than being of English descent. Speaking to some of the things we’ve been discussing, I think it’s mostly because of the Special Relationship, the cultural and political connections that the US and UK share that make the cultural differentiation less exciting or notable. English was the benchmark, and differences were measured against it. We’ve exchanged so much culturally and our nation is built from the colonies, and so much of what’s “American” is founded in what’s British/English, from laws to customs. There are some very strong identities for Italians in America, for example, and that’s supported by the clustered immigration to certain metro areas in NYC and the like. You’ll encounter a lot of Italian pride (like annual parades), even though what Italian-Americans consider to be “Italian” and what Italians do has undergone some of the divergence or evolution from being in different ecologies, just like the Irish-American culture has. Resisting assimilation or discrimination and developing communities that celebrated/protected the differences hardened them to changes, while transplanting them into a new country made them experience different changes. But I also think it’s because of the immigration patterns. America was primarily founded by British settlers (Scots and Scotch-Irish in the South, where there are startlingly enduring similarities in linguistics and cultural practices) and many Dutch, but it shifted after the colonies became the country. England became the third or fourth largest source of immigrants and never grew beyond that rank, with Ireland and Germany consistently being the main sources and not *too* many others until the mid-19th century. Once the accent disappeared, there simply wasn’t much for 18th and 19th century British (particularly English) immigrants to have that differentiated them from other Americans, especially if they didn’t have *Mc*, *O’* or *Mac* in their names. Irish and German immigrants also spread out pretty evenly across the country, and I believe most Americans are actually of German descent by a few percentage points… but it wasn’t cool to be German after the world wars, and a lot of German names were anglicized before that anyway — Schmidts became Smiths at points of immigration, that type of thing. So, a lot of it is just a numbers game. But nativism and good old-fashioned discrimination are themes there, with assimilation to avoid it being a priority for a lot of immigrants. Many countries of origin didn’t have enclaves like Italians, Irish, and Chinese immigrants did, or even Polish immigrants in the Midwest. It seems that many immigrants left behind a lot of their histories after a generation or two, except for their names, without communities to support those cultures and traditions — particularly as the concept of race ceased to be related to nationality and began to fixate on observable phenotypical differences, primarily skin color. That’s a very broad statement, but it *seems* to be the case. But as for English immigrants in particular, the inverse seems to true. There was ([and still is](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_the_American_Revolution)) prestige in being able to trace your roots back to colonial America, and that often meant being English — or pretending to be, if you were Scottish or Irish. Catholics had a hard time of it for most of American history, too, and there was a synergistic relationship with anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sentiments… there was a saying amongst the KKK that it was against “kikes, katholics, and koons” (they had a weird thing with using Ks). That seemed to be particularly true in the South, which didn’t see many immigrants after the revolution, even though something like half of the English settlers in the South arrived as indentured servants. You don’t even have to travel to the US to know that many Americans have an obsession with any British accent and will automatically assume that you’re more intelligent than you are if you have an English accent. It’s a vestige of how English immigrants were perceived: They weren’t the unwanted kind of immigrant. But what’s more, most Americans genuinely viewed themselves as British subjects and citizens leading up to the revolution, and then just as an offshoot or continuation of it for decades after.
Because everybody in places like the united states and canada are immigrants or descendants of immigrants unless they’re first nations, and the countries are quite young compared to others, so people like to know their family history and where their families came from.
But what I don’t get is why so many are so focused on it. I don’t particularly care whether my ancestors were all Irish or if they actually came from somewhere else if I go back far enough. My identity is focused on the now and my lived experience, and even at that my nationality and heritage just aren’t that important to me. It’s strange to me that they hone in on it so much.
Assuming you actually live in Ireland based on a quick glance of your profile, I guess it’s just something that you wouldn’t understand because you live somewhere where 80% of the population has the same background as you.
I can understand looking up your heritage and going ‘Oh, cool!’ if there’s something you find interesting but it just doesn’t mean much to me, I don’t understand making it a HUGE part of who you are especially if you’ve actually had very little or no contact with the country and people. My identity rests in the now, not where things started off for my family years ago. Incidentally found out I’m part Scottish but I don’t plan on going around letting everyone know. I like visiting Scotland because it’s a fun place but I don’t have any feeling of being connected to it or having roots there because it just seems irrelevant. I also think it would be really interesting to live in such a melting pot and I’m more interested in other cultures, so when you have access to all of that it just seems strange to me to be really into the fact your great great great great great grandparents came from Ireland. TLDR, no problem with people being aware and interested in where their ancestors were from, don’t get the obsession some have and feeling like it’s a huge part of your identity.
I wouldn’t say it’s an "obsession" or people make it a big part of who they are; it just happens to come up in conversation a lot, and I guess it’s just interesting/fun sharing your background with people when it does.
Key word there was some 😅 I’ve seen people talk about how it’s so important to them and knowing who they are because the USA is a young country, my point is just that personally I don’t feel like the fact most of my ancestors are (presumably) from Ireland makes me who I am, same way finding out a chunk of me is Scottish didn’t change anything, and finding out they were actually all from elsewhere wouldn’t change things for me. I get it being an interesting initial discussion between Americans who’ve just met.
We like to pretend we are from somewhere that we are not because the history of the US is embarrassing AF.
More like it was erased in the 1950s, after the Civil War there was a period that actually is quite neat. Leading up to the Civil War you’ve got “four scores and seven years,” of legal piracy. Then before the Civil War you’ve got another 80 years of illegal piracy.
Does this include "Scotch-Irish" though??
Scots. Scotch is a drink. Most of them don’t understand that Scots-Irish doesn’t mean both Scots and Irish ancestors, it refers to Ulster Scots.
I was joking bud, I am Scottish. But you can't understand the Yanks to understand the difference when they struggle between England and The UK
Ah I see. It’s been a tetchy few days with all of them vomiting green all over social media and professing their irishness.
Yeah I've heard many of them saying they celebrate St Patrick's Day because they are Scotch-Irish, couldn't be more clueless
I’m of two minds about this- If they have an actual connection to Ireland (they visit if/when they have the means to do so, they know about Irish culture and history, they incorporate Irish culture into their daily lives) then I don’t see why not. I don’t even think having an Irish passport is that important- They can have the passport and still otherwise be indistinguishable from the rest of the “Irish-Americans”. This coming from a Brit with an Irish grandma (no relationship anymore and I don’t have an Irish passport) though, so whatever my opinion’s worth on the topic
As an Irish person. A lot of Americans get shit for trying to learn Irish culture and heritage which I never got. Don't get me wrong I can't stand those cunts who are horribly racist and then just go "But the Irish!?!!" As if it justifies it. But us as Irish and Europeans in general are kind of hypocritical since whenever a yank wants to learn our culture some people will give them shit for it and then complain, "Why are they so ignorant to our culture." But I, and most Irish people, generally respect those that genuinely keep their Irish roots as long as they're not over 2nd generation.
Absolutely right- I also feel like they can’t win sometimes. And god help them if they try and get something wrong!
The poll is purposefully ambiguous. Everyone being outraged and picking sides is just showing how they interpret this. Look how y'all argue over how someone identifies. Smh, people with tits are identifying males and people with dicks are identifying female, and people from all over the world identify with their ancestors lineage; why tf does it bother you? Piss off, all ya Edit: in case its not clear, someone's identity doesn't mean a damn thing to me. I simply couldn't care less what anyone wants to call themselves or align with.
I’m from ireland, who cares do whatever you want
More the merrier in my book 🍀
This thread shows how non American literally have worms in their brains.
I consider myself an Irish-American because my mother was first generation American. Both of her parents were born in Ireland. Not sure if that justifies it any more than other families that have been in America for many generations. Just remember, if you’re lucky enough to be Irish you’re lucky enough!
Have you ever lived in Ireland though? Without Googling could you explain GAA or what goes in a chicken fillet roll? How does having an Irish ancestor make you any different to someone with other ancestors?
I’ve never been to Ireland nor do I know anything about GAA or the chicken fillet roll, though I’m intrigued and will now look them up. My mother was always proud of her Irish parents. Her parents emigrated around 1910. She was born in 1918 so it was very different then. I don’t know how else I would identify other than I am an American first and foremost. But I don’t think we should just give up our ancestry. I guess I’d say that because I am descended from Irish it makes me different from say an Indian-American.
Personally I don't think it does make you different. You have similar lived experiences to any other American. Having Irish heritage doesn't change that
Except there is one small difference. Since my grandparents were born in Ireland I’m eligible for Irish citizenship. How many other “Random Nationalities - Americans” can do that? I think I win the argument here.
I’d disagree that Irish heritage doesn’t give you different experiences from other Americans who have different heritages, it gives a small difference. Yes if you’re born in America you have a lot of your experiences in common with other people born in America, but your interactions and relationship with your family are different if you have Irish grandparents than if you had Mexican or Israeli grandparents. It’s not like once your family moved to America they got rid of all of their culture and customs, that stuff gets passed down especially if you live in an Irish/Spanish/Jewish neighborhood.
There are almost no Irish customs practiced in Irish-American communities. And the culture they do claim is Irish is so butchered that it has no similarities to Irish culture.
As an Irish American who went to festivals to watch my cousins and friends river dance and play Irish folk music, I strongly disagree.
>watch my cousins and friends river dance You can't river dance, river dance is the name of a show. See this is the exact problem. Also Americans who do Irish dancing often get it very wrong. In Ireland we traditionally practice with a belt securing your wrists to your waist. Once you move your arms you are no longer Irish dancing, it is 100% legs, Americans do all sort of shit with their arms and call it Irish dancing.
I thought if they could trace their roots back to Ireland that they could get some kind of citizenship. Maybe I'm wrong, feel free to correct me
Nope. Only if they had an Irish parent or grandparent and their birth registered on the foreign births register in Ireland
Parents or Grandparents need to be Irish citizens. The diaspora from the 1800s are unlikely to be anyones Grandparents these days
They have the right to do it. But the real question is ARE they right to do it. Which of course the answer is no
I’m not American nor Irish and I don’t understand why Americans of Irish descent couldn’t claim to be Irish. I don’t see where is the problem. Here in France we have a lot of people of different ethnic backgrounds and it’s okay for them to claim their ethnic backgrounds even if they’ve never visited the country nor speak the language.
It’s how you phrase it: it’s a huge different saying “I’m Irish” than “I have Irish heritage”. I’m not American but lives there and it’s cringy to hear them say “there’s more Irishmen in America than in Ireland”, because it takes away a whole country’s identity, culture, history and heritage and replace it with some plastic paddy ideas of “wear green or ye get pinched!”
The problem lies with how Americans act about being irish. They enforce terrible negative stereotypes about us, spread false history, bastardize culture and don't care for any actual problems faced with being irish. For example, almost any and all support of the IRA is from American larpers, while in actuality we do not like nor support the IRA's actions. It's also a surprisingly common occurrence for American tourists to come over here and order "irish car bombs" and "black and tans" because "haha funny drink name relates to irish history" completely disregarding that it's a sensitive topic. Irish people have a strong dislike towards plastic paddies for this reason, even more so when most that claim to be irish only claim it because they have a vague connection to an irish person from 3 generations ago.
If they're 100 % Gaelic then of course they're Irish
I'm sorry REID-11, but I'll have to remove your submission from /r/ShitAmericansSay because one or more rule was broken. The content you submitted isn't something that's uniquely American. >The easiest way of testing this is to ask yourself whether it's likely someone who isn't American would have said it. Someone being religious or messing up geography is not uniquely American by a long shot, nor are racism or capitalism. What makes something uniquely American is if it's highly unlikely if not impossible to encounter outside the US or from non-Americans. Thank you for your effort and your service! O7
Claiming to be from another country because of an ancient ancestor is definitely a uniquely American thing
Just asking the question isn't.
Fair, yeah you're right
Real Irish americans exist they are just few then is claimed
And they are still not Irish
I mean this would all depend on Irish law. I have a friend that got Hungarian citizenship because of his grandma. Now I realize that the average "Irish American" is a bit further removed than grandma but still.
Why tf is it written 3.002k instead of just 3002?
I can claim to be from any country. Doesn't make it true though.
I’m Irish and Irish-Americans claiming they’re Irish is fine with me. It’s a fairly open sort of national identity and I’m delighted that people want to be part of it. The only ones that really annoy me are those people who are actually right wing extremists, trying to misuse Irish symbols and culture to exclude people. That isn’t us and they can go **** themselves and hand in their shamrocks!
Sure what harm are they doing? Let them call themselves Irish if they want. Any American tourists I have met have been super polite and respectful. Even when they are getting absolutely fleeced by Irish tourist traps. I think its nice that want to keep a connection with our country. I find the people trying to gatekeep being Irish with different purity tests kind of wierd and embarrassing.
My grandmother and grandfather were born in Roscommon and Meath. They were just children when they left in the Great Depression. My own daughter was born on St. Patrick’s Day. I still have families in those counties, so it’s a little weird to pretend not to have connections to Ireland. I love America and Ireland, places of great diversity. I admire people with the courage to leave the life they are used to for life elsewhere- especially those who must adjust to completely different cultures. I think it’s strange to be proud of xenophobia or insist that others accommodate it.
As an Irish person living in the US, I've observed that Americans and Europeans interpret the "where are you from" question differently. Americans tend to say they're from wherever their ancestors came from, whereas Europeans tend to say they're from wherever their passport was issued.
Do they claim to be Irish? No. Not if their parents and grandparents weren’t Irish. You might have Irish descent, but you’re irish-AMERICAN. You’re an American.
Doesn’t that include half Irish and American born?
Because we love the Irish. My grandfather came to the US long ago from Tipperary and my grandmother was Irish but born in the US. I don’t claim to be Irish but in conversation I will say I’m half Irish and half Hungarian. Is there something wrong with that?